N Gauge Forum

General Category => Crowdfunding => Topic started by: RBE on December 31, 2018, 05:20:56 PM

Title: Cavalex Models Redland/Lafarge PGA
Post by: RBE on December 31, 2018, 05:20:56 PM
Hi I just wanted to make everyone aware that the 2mm version of or PGA wagon is now available to pre order. We need to reach a certain level before the wagon can go ahead so if anyone who is interested please pre-order as soon as possible to ensure success we would be very greatful.

The pre-order discount stage has been extended to the end of February for those wanting to take advantage of that.

Please visit our Cavalex Models website for more info.

http://cavalexmodels.com/?page_id=89 (http://cavalexmodels.com/?page_id=89)

(http://cavalexmodels.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/N-pga-Top.png)

Regards
Cav
Title: Re: Cavalex PGA
Post by: Snowwolflair on December 31, 2018, 05:53:12 PM
Thank you for the reminder, four ordered  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Cavalex PGA
Post by: RBE on January 01, 2019, 09:26:56 AM
Thanks, much apreciated!
Title: Re: Cavalex PGA
Post by: njee20 on January 01, 2019, 09:36:07 AM
How are orders looking Cav? Iím excited by the prospect, the OO gauge ones look lovely.
Title: Re: Cavalex PGA
Post by: RBE on January 01, 2019, 09:50:02 AM
I don't have the figures to hand but it has been very disappointing so far, hopefully due to it simply being christmas.

I am really keen to get these made as they are lovely, but more importantly spell the yard stick by which we decide whether N gauge models are worth pursuing at all for Cavalex moving forward. Our intial plan was to do all of our 4mm models as 2mm too.

As a 2mm modeller myself I have a vested interest in Cavalex producing 2mm scale models as its in my sphere of interest. It would be a real shame if we as 2mm scale modellers were to miss out.
Title: Re: Cavalex PGA
Post by: njee20 on January 01, 2019, 09:54:06 AM
Thatís a real shame. As you say, hopefully just Christmas and things will pick up. Was there a separate thread on RMWeb for the N gauge one? I was following the OO gauge project too, so I canít remember where I saw that you were downsizing them.

Itís a very versatile wagon - geographically, era wise and consist wise, so would be a shame (and frankly a surprise) if it didnít gain critical mass.
Title: Re: Cavalex PGA
Post by: RBE on January 01, 2019, 09:59:54 AM
There is a seperate thread on RMWeb yes. We had simply tons of people asking for these (the 2mm version) when we started the 4mm version but that has not turned into orders so far.

The design work for the tooling is there, we just need to get the orders to push the button now.
Title: Re: Cavalex PGA
Post by: njee20 on January 01, 2019, 10:21:25 AM
Well my fingers remain crossed, Iíd like some, and having another manufacturer Ďin the ganeí Is only good, particularly one doing modern freight wagons!
Title: Re: Cavalex PGA
Post by: honk843 on January 01, 2019, 10:34:19 AM
My expression of interest is the death knell to all crowd-funding projects. If it was definite I would order four and I may buy more once seen. I am waiting for the N Gauge Society to cancel the Hunslet and D.J. models to cancel the King then all my expressions of interest would have been a waste of time.

Just as a thought though about this particular project; is it intended to produce this in both N gauge and 2mmFS or would a 2mmFS need to be re-wheeled?
Title: Re: Cavalex PGA
Post by: Ben A on January 01, 2019, 11:23:46 AM
I am waiting for the N Gauge Society to cancel the Hunslet and D.J. models to cancel the King then all my expressions of interest would have been a waste of time.

The NGS Hunslet is not a crowdfunded model. It is already tooled and will be going into production very shortly.  The discount pre-order deadline expired at midnight on Dec 31st though.

Apologies for thread drift, just important to correct a possible misconception.

Cheers

Ben A.
Title: Re: Cavalex PGA
Post by: Snowwolflair on January 01, 2019, 11:33:31 AM
Its a very nice model to have but at £25 its a few pounds too expensive to contemplate a long rake on a price per inch basis.  The Revolution HOA at £28.50 for a wagon nearly twice the length gives an 8 wagon rake for £228, to match this length with PGAs will be about £375, so I think that orders of 2 or 4 are more likely to create mixed traffic trains.
Title: Re: Cavalex PGA
Post by: RBE on January 01, 2019, 11:38:39 AM
My expression of interest is the death knell to all crowd-funding projects. If it was definite I would order four and I may buy more once seen. I am waiting for the N Gauge Society to cancel the Hunslet and D.J. models to cancel the King then all my expressions of interest would have been a waste of time.

Just as a thought though about this particular project; is it intended to produce this in both N gauge and 2mmFS or would a 2mmFS need to be re-wheeled?

If you don't pre order then it wont happen. I know that it takes courage sometimes to take the plunge but there is really no financial risk for you until the tooling is made at which point the model is going ahead in any case.

We rely on people backing our projects in order for them to go ahead, as for the quality of the wagon, I feel that we have already delivered with the 4mm version.

As for 2mmfs, at this stage there are no plans to sell them as 2mmfs rtr. The demand is just too low. The wagon would need 2mmfs wheelsets dropped in.
Title: Re: Cavalex PGA
Post by: RBE on January 01, 2019, 11:41:06 AM
Its a very nice model to have but at £25 its a few pounds too expensive to contemplate a long rake on a price per inch basis.  The Revolution HOA at £28.50 for a wagon nearly twice the length gives an 8 wagon rake for £228, to match this length with PGAs will be about £375, so I think that orders of 2 or 4 are more likely to create mixed traffic trains.

Whilst I agree, we are constrained by the cost of developent, tooling and assembly. We would love them to be cheaper and our intentions were to make them so but needs as must.
Title: Re: Cavalex PGA
Post by: njee20 on January 01, 2019, 11:56:06 AM
Itís also inline with the Realtrack/Accurascale PCA, and those run almost entirely as block trains, whilst PGAs can be mixed in with all sorts of things, so an order of 3-4 is totally reasonable.

Comparing with other models seems a bit futile and thoroughly unhelpful. You could argue the HOAs are overpriced when Dapolís MJAs are only £32 for a pair of bogie wagons.
Title: Re: Cavalex PGA
Post by: Ben A on January 01, 2019, 08:15:26 PM
Its a very nice model to have but at £25 its a few pounds too expensive to contemplate a long rake on a price per inch basis.

Hi there,

I think judging a model purely on a "price per inch" basis is a little narrow.

These PGAs are, as has been said before, very useful models and as far as I can tell will feature similarly high levels of detail to Cavalex's very well received 4mm models.

These details are the same no matter what length of wagon.  It is also worth bearing in mind that the overall production run numbers have a very significant bearing on prices - if you're amortising tooling costs then there's a big difference in unit cost between selling 2000 models and 4000.

I have ordered a few to mix in with NGS JGAs, older style Farish PGAS and Farish JGAs as this is how I used to see them running near me in Cambridgeshire before the HOAs took over.

I hope this model succeeds, as it will (a) bring a new manufacturer into the N gauge market and (b) be a very useful model in its own right and (c) possibly prompt the scaling down of other Cavalex models such as the BBA steel carrier.

Cheers

Ben A.
Title: Re: Cavalex PGA
Post by: Snowwolflair on January 01, 2019, 08:32:12 PM
Its a very nice model to have but at £25 its a few pounds too expensive to contemplate a long rake on a price per inch basis.

Hi there,

I think judging a model purely on a "price per inch" basis is a little narrow.

These PGAs are, as has been said before, very useful models and as far as I can tell will feature similarly high levels of detail to Cavalex's very well received 4mm models.

These details are the same no matter what length of wagon.  It is also worth bearing in mind that the overall production run numbers have a very significant bearing on prices - if you're amortising tooling costs then there's a big difference in unit cost between selling 2000 models and 4000.

I have ordered a few to mix in with NGS JGAs, older style Farish PGAS and Farish JGAs as this is how I used to see them running near me in Cambridgeshire before the HOAs took over.

I hope this model succeeds, as it will (a) bring a new manufacturer into the N gauge market and (b) be a very useful model in its own right and (c) possibly prompt the scaling down of other Cavalex models such as the BBA steel carrier.

Cheers

Ben A.

I made my comment having reserved my four and reflecting my thought process in deciding what quantity I was going to buy.  I don't think I will be alone. 

By comparison I bought 18 class B tankers at c£20 each and they were new CAD not re scaled versions of a successful model already produced.  Surely this should have reduced their cost.
Title: Re: Cavalex PGA
Post by: red_death on January 01, 2019, 10:03:44 PM
You don't generally reduce CAD as tolerances and smallest details don't scale well. It gives some advantage but CAD is cheap so the overall impact is small.

If we were doing the Class Bs now I suspect they would be more like £25 anyway - modified: I forgot that the MSRP of the Class Bs is £26.95.

As Ben says the quantity you expect to sell has a big impact on price (as well as the complexity of the design/tooling/assembly, complexity of decoration and which factory you use).

Personally I'm delighted that Cavalex are doing these in N. I'd completely missed that they had gone on sale, but I'll get an order in now.

Cheers Mike
Title: Re: Cavalex PGA
Post by: simong on January 01, 2019, 10:05:36 PM
Could someone please advise if any of the liveries whould have been in use in the early 1980s.  Thanks
Title: Re: Cavalex PGA
Post by: RBE on January 01, 2019, 10:37:17 PM
The redland with grey stripe was prevalent in the early 80s. The grey was then omitted in the mid 80s.
Title: Re: Cavalex PGA
Post by: nookfield on January 01, 2019, 11:36:16 PM
Could someone please advise if any of the liveries whould have been in use in the early 1980s.  Thanks


Cavalex Models have got a couple of pdf files on there website with information on prototype train formations/dates 

Part One covers the British Rail period 1982-1994
Part Two covers Post Privatisation period 1996- 2017

http://cavalexmodels.com/?page_id=47 (http://cavalexmodels.com/?page_id=47)
Title: Re: Cavalex PGA
Post by: Steven B on January 02, 2019, 08:54:14 AM
I'd like to support this model (mainly in the hope of getting some BBAs). Unfortuntaly train loads of these PGAs didn't run up north - except upon delivery as I believe they were built by Standard Wagon in Lancashire. I'd love to be proven wrong though!

Has anyone got/found photos show any number of these in speedlink trains?
Title: Re: Cavalex PGA
Post by: acko22 on January 02, 2019, 10:32:16 AM
Has anyone got/found photos show any number of these in speedlink trains?

I believe if ky mememory serves me correctly, a few rakes of these found their ways on to the Tunstead - Lostock Works (Northwich) services for a period after the original ICI wagons were withdrawn.
They were on there for about 18 months IIRC but with the hours they ran some of thw trains there was lota of conplaints due to the noise as wagons bounce past.
Generally they were hauled by class 60, but alao tgey trailed them with 59s and at least once with a 47!

So I know they were PGA wagons but cannot say for 100% certain they were tye same variant but I beleive so, sadly was too young to be able to realise what variant and no camera on the way to school
Title: Re: Cavalex PGA
Post by: Ben A on January 06, 2019, 01:42:48 PM

Hello all,

I have tracked down some photos of these wagons in use on Redland/Lafarge trains running through Manea and Barway, not far from where I live in Cambridgeshire.

(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/66/94-070618122856-661351727.jpeg)

This shot shows the Farish type JGA mixed in, plus some of the PGAs as the former Farish model:
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/66/94-070618122859-661351377.jpeg)

In this train the bogie wagon two from the loco is a curved sided JGA as depicted in the NGS kit:
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/66/94-070618122959-661482194.jpeg)

Here the third PGA has the deflectors fitted over the end frame, while the others around it do not. All have had their inspection catwalks and ladders removed:
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/66/94-070618123019-66149473.jpeg)

Another shot of a Farish style JGA mixed in:
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/66/94-070618123022-661512423.jpeg)

I do think these are good looking wagons, and they certainly make for nice varied trains in an era of fairly unform block freights:
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/66/94-070618123020-66150961.jpeg)

I hope these images will encourage some waverers to sign up, it would be a pity if this opportunity passed us by!

cheers

Ben A.


Title: Re: Cavalex PGA
Post by: Ashio on January 07, 2019, 10:45:03 AM
I hope you get this through. I would order some but they were constructed at least a decade after any period that I would ever decide to do, a great shame really as they are lovely looking wagons.

good luck
Title: Re: Cavalex PGA
Post by: RBE on January 07, 2019, 11:25:02 AM
Do you model the 60s?

Anyway a couple more recent renders.

(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/72/3312-070119112257.png) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=72951)

(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/72/3312-070119112344.png) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=72952)

(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/72/3312-070119112436.png) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=72953)
Title: Re: Cavalex PGA
Post by: Ashio on January 07, 2019, 02:34:07 PM

Do you model the 60s?


Primarily I model 1930's but I am acquiring rolling stock to create one or two smaller industrial layouts in addition to the 1930's layout. One will definitely be a steel mill or foundry set in the mid 60's yes, I am finding myself becoming a bit partial to industrial loco's and green diesels recently.

Lovely renders above
Title: Re: Cavalex PGA
Post by: Skyline2uk on January 31, 2019, 09:03:20 AM
I wonder if the collective could educate me (again!)?

I have in mind to model the class 60 test train(s) as a long term project. Test Coach 6 and 60001 / 2 aside; I have some Farish Redland ďPGAĒ hoppers.

I did once find a photo of the test formation, but I am struggling now. Can anybody tell me if the Redland wagons used for that test were of the type being offered by Cavalex or would the (I suspect generic) Farish ones be roughly the right shape?

Skyline2uk
Title: Re: Cavalex PGA
Post by: RBE on January 31, 2019, 09:49:01 AM
Hi Skyline,

I mangaged to find this written account however no pics.

(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/73/3312-310119094209.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=73717)

The text states PCA but that is a typo. They were PGA's. As it states that they were redland hoppers then they could only have been the ones we produce or the other type like this.

(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/73/3312-310119094558.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=73718)

No one produces these as yet but they are slightly similar to the farish version. The train was likely a mixture of the two types but without photo evidence I can't say for sure.

HTH
Cav
Title: Re: Cavalex PGA
Post by: Skyline2uk on January 31, 2019, 10:12:34 AM
 :thankyousign:

Thanks for the effort Cav ( @RBE (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=3312) ), I wonít feel too bad about using the Farish ones for now.

If there was a mix of exact types, to be honest thatís probably the best outcome as it will allow me to obtain some of yours as well in due course  :thumbsup:

Skyline2uk
Title: Re: Cavalex PGA
Post by: RBE on January 31, 2019, 10:18:47 AM
Provided we get the level of pre orders to make the wagon possible.

We have been very disappointed by the uptake on these to be honest, I thought that they would sell like hot cakes. Whether its because of christmas and new year I don't know but our 4mm BBA is selling really well.

As a 2mm modeller myself I really want to get our 2mm stuff off the ground as it will actually give me a chance to run our stuff on my layout, we have already paid for the design on this to be done so would be a waste I feel if not followed through.

Title: Re: Cavalex PGA
Post by: Skyline2uk on January 31, 2019, 10:27:38 AM
Provided we get the level of pre orders to make the wagon possible.

We have been very disappointed by the uptake on these to be honest, I thought that they would sell like hot cakes. Whether its because of christmas and new year I don't know but our 4mm BBA is selling really well.

As a 2mm modeller myself I really want to get our 2mm stuff off the ground as it will actually give me a chance to run our stuff on my layout, we have already paid for the design on this to be done so would be a waste I feel if not followed through.

Thatís a real shame, personally itís just finances stopping my order atm

I wonder if itís a result of lots of other projects / announcements being made in the last few months? Maybe people are ďpre-order saturatedĒ (I made that up)?

I have no real answer, like I said I am just skint

Skyline2uk
Title: Re: Cavalex PGA
Post by: RBE on January 31, 2019, 10:32:28 AM
Understandable. We aren't trying to force people into orders.

We do seem to have over estimated 2mm scale demand though for sure.
Title: Re: Cavalex PGA
Post by: woodbury22uk on January 31, 2019, 10:54:16 AM
I have expressed my interest in a small number of these PGAs mainly because I had an association with them stretching over 30 years of my railway career, starting with the planning of the train services from Mountsorrel in the late 1970s/early 1980s.


I think that there is a bit of wagon "pre-order" fatigue around, and I have been pondering on the size of my pre-orders for these PGAs (EOI), HOAs(pre-ordered), PCAs (ordered), Sturgeons, Cemflos, etc. etc.
Title: Re: Cavalex PGA
Post by: red_death on January 31, 2019, 11:24:40 AM
I suspect the answer is people are unaware of it - I'd like to think of myself as being fairly in the loop on announcements but I'd completely missed that the N gauge version was on sale until Cav posted on here on 31/12/18.


Thinking out loud, I'm wondering a few things that might explain low take up:
- is it clear enough to people that this won't happen without sufficient orders
- do retail orders count and how do retailers feedback their orders - we've not really cracked that with Revolution yet
- is there enough of a differentiation between the discount price and RRP? If not then are people hanging back and waiting to purchase from retailers.
- is there a clear deadline?

The N gauge market is much smaller than OO in our experience.

Cheers Mike
Title: Re: Cavalex PGA
Post by: RBE on January 31, 2019, 12:34:48 PM
Firstly thankyou Woodbury for your order!

Secondly. Mike I see your points, maybe things aren't prodominantly clear however I think the website spells these things out.

It may just be down to visability. Maybe these weren't quite so publisised as the 4mm version. As you said, you had missed them.

Needless to say, I am more than keen to get some 2mm versions of these moving, and tbh the take upnon these may end up dictating whether we pursue 2mm at all moving forward.
Title: Re: Cavalex PGA
Post by: Steven B on January 31, 2019, 12:55:03 PM
Sadly Redland PGAs were noticeable by their absence in the NW of England in the late 1980s, otherwise I'd place an order. With a young family and current prices I can't justify getting new models just because they look nice (although getting a few to sell on later is an option).

If you were to reduce the BBA to N gauge then I'd be after a rake of them....

Title: Re: Cavalex PGA
Post by: RBE on January 31, 2019, 12:57:13 PM
You are right. It may just be the subject matter.
Title: Re: Cavalex PGA
Post by: RailGooner on January 31, 2019, 01:38:45 PM
I want some. I need some! But with a big order just gone into Shapeways to beat their price hikes, and the RevolutioN HOA early-bird deadline today, my wallet is suffering bad. :uneasy:
Title: Re: Cavalex PGA
Post by: red_death on January 31, 2019, 02:22:30 PM
The Cavalex PGAs in Lafarge livery are a perfect complement to our forthcoming HOAs (hopefully we should have the first samples in the not too distant future)!

Cheers Mike
Title: Re: Cavalex PGA
Post by: RailGooner on January 31, 2019, 04:05:34 PM
The Cavalex PGAs in Lafarge livery are a perfect complement to our forthcoming HOAs (hopefully we should have the first samples in the not too distant future)!

Cheers Mike

That's exactly why I need some! :'( My bank manager says you're all evil. :help:
Title: Re: Cavalex PGA
Post by: njee20 on January 31, 2019, 04:17:54 PM
Yep, that's where mine are destined too! Mixed in with some JGAs for good measure.
Title: Re: Cavalex PGA
Post by: Railbank on January 31, 2019, 08:10:39 PM
to add my thoughts on this project.

I think that one of the issues with the pre-orders attaining critical mass is that if all that subscribers are ordering are small numbers to mix in with other offerings such as HOA's or JGA's then the fact is you are going to need lots more subscribers to achieve the same result as fewer appear to be going for longer rakes and given the lower numbers of N gauge modellers out there this is adding to the difficulties.

I also think that pre-orders for say Revolution wagons tend to favour subscribers ordering decent length rakes, I know I do and several posters appear to suggest this also, this is leaving less additional discretionary spend across the modern n gauge market, also the £ outlay verses the physical amount of wagon you get on the layout would suggest that the market favours bogie type wagons at relatively little extra cost verses a 2 axle type. (I now almost never buy new 2 axle GF wagons as they just do not seem value for money).

I have considered subscribing to the proposed PGA's but I am heavily committed to the Revolution offerings - KFA's - fortunately 100% paid for, HOA's, Sturgeons and Class 92's so much as I would like them I just cannot justify the commitment.

The other important factor I think is the presence of retailer sales, I just do not think that this mixed approach works - firstly wanting sufficient private subscribers to justify the go ahead and financially commit when as an alternative you can just wait until retail sales begin and decide/pay when they are in stock, it's no outlay and no risk. Some crowd funder type projects appear to be going this way and it is now making me think why take the risk, if the retail market wants a product it will happen, if it doesn't then clearly there is insufficient commercial demand and you should try pure crowdfunding.



Title: Re: Cavalex PGA
Post by: Ben A on January 31, 2019, 10:00:18 PM

Hi all,

I hope this model generates enough interest to go ahead.

I know some of us model a particular location in a particular era, others are more relaxed and are happy to model accurate trains and others will just run anything that takes their fancy.

When we are marketing (or selecting) Revolution models we often emphasise that they can work well with items customers may already own, or be thinking of buying. 

In this spirit, can I suggest that it might be worth bearing in mind that not only do the Cavalex hoppers go well with NGS JGAs or Revolution HOAs, but also the very recently announced Farish HKAs in DB red - see here: https://flic.kr/p/qWZtuC - a very attractive mixed train.

We have also found that while the forums are great, editorial exposure in the mainstream magazines and chatting to potential customers at exhibitions is also really helpful.

cheers

Ben A.



Title: Re: Cavalex PGA
Post by: Snowwolflair on January 31, 2019, 10:11:43 PM

Hi all,

I hope this model generates enough interest to go ahead.

I know some of us model a particular location in a particular era, others are more relaxed and are happy to model accurate trains and others will just run anything that takes their fancy.

When we are marketing (or selecting) Revolution models we often emphasise that they can work well with items customers may already own, or be thinking of buying. 

In this spirit, can I suggest that it might be worth bearing in mind that not only do the Cavalex hoppers go well with NGS JGAs or Revolution HOAs, but also the very recently announced Farish HKAs in DB red - see here: https://flic.kr/p/qWZtuC - a very attractive mixed train.

We have also found that while the forums are great, editorial exposure in the mainstream magazines and chatting to potential customers at exhibitions is also really helpful.

cheers

Ben A.

I think the point about modelling by era affects a lot of us.  Personally I model by specific trains, so correct locomotive and matching rolling stock.  This is probably as my main running is on a club layout that is era generic,

I don't mind if my 1930's kettle pulling an express rake of coaches passes a class 66 in DB red pulling something modern, my train in itself is correct and that's what matters.

the upside is my buying is era agnostic.  If I can form an authentic train or set of trains (I have a lot of Dutch engineering stock and several locos for example) and it appeals to me I will collect it.
Title: Re: Cavalex PGA
Post by: Branchie on February 01, 2019, 08:53:17 PM
Hi Cav.
The renders look great and I hope they are successful. Unfortunately they're not suitable for where and when I model, so I can't justify an order.

Please persevere with the 2mm range as I really want some BBA wagons. As I've said elsewhere, I'd want at least 10 of those 😉

Title: Re: PGA aggregates hopper to be made by Cavalex
Post by: woodbury22uk on March 04, 2019, 07:16:57 PM
The deadline for expressions of interest has been extended to get this project over the line.

ďThe uptake and interest in the 2mm version PGA has been steady, however we arenít quite at the pre-order target yet. Over the past couple of weeks we have seen a significant increase in pre-orders and hope that by extending the pre-order period and moving the deadline until the 15th of April will see us achieve the level of required orders for production to go ahead.Ē

If anyone has been holding off on committing to these PGAs, now is the time to lend support. There are images of the CADs on the expression of interest page.

http://cavalexmodels.com/?page_id=89 (http://cavalexmodels.com/?page_id=89)

@RBE (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=3312)

Title: Re: Cavalex PGA
Post by: Bob G on March 05, 2019, 02:22:12 PM
Regrettably not for me.

If it were a Yeoman PGA the answer would be a lot different.

Bob
Title: Re: Cavalex PGA
Post by: railsquid on March 05, 2019, 03:17:00 PM
Just a suggestion, after I've ended up here more-or-less coincidentally, but the title of this thread is "Cavalex PGA".

Now, I can't be the only one who has (had) no idea what a "Cavalex" or a "PGA" are, I'm sure I've seen the thread before and wrote it off as "something about some weird post-privatisation stuff about which I know and care zilch"...

Something like "Cavalex to produce PGA hoppers in N gauge" would probably have attracted my attention ("Ooh! A new manufacturer is thinking of producing a wagon!") and an actual explanation in the first post of what a PGA wagon is would have been even more helpful (there are some explanatory PDFs (http://cavalexmodels.com/?page_id=47) linked later in the thread, but the page linked in the first post is only useful if you know what they are in the first place).

Believe me, there are people out here such as myself who may be potentially interested but also require educating about different wagon types and when/where they may have run, which may or may not inspire to a line of thinking such as "ooh I could justify some of those". Which is how I have ended up with a rake of Class B tankers. Just saying, like.
Title: PGA aggregates/stone hopper to be made by Cavalex in N
Post by: woodbury22uk on March 05, 2019, 04:05:58 PM
Good idea @railsquid (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=3832)

Email your expressions of interest to Cavalex Models using the information on this page.

http://cavalexmodels.com/?page_id=89 (http://cavalexmodels.com/?page_id=89)

A simpler way of signing up might be helpful as not everyone seems to be able to understand the process from the webpage.
Title: Re: Cavalex PGA
Post by: jpendle on March 05, 2019, 04:17:42 PM
I agree. The process of emailing seems a bit 'clunky'. I also struggled to find info on these wagons being used on today's railway, until I clicked on the information tab. I was expecting to find info about Cavalex Models, but got typical consists and routings for the PGA's.

I would have made an expression of interest weeks ago if all this stuff had been easier to find.

But it's always good to see a new manufacturer in N Gauge.

It's also interesting to see on RmWeb that the OO versions of everything seem to get enough expressions of interest really quickly, whereas the N versions really are a slow burn.

I know that OO is a much bigger market, but examples like this illustrate much better the relative size of N and OO.

Regards,

John P
Title: Re: Cavalex PGA
Post by: njee20 on March 05, 2019, 04:27:58 PM
The OO gauge models look superb too. Hoping it gets across the line.
Title: Re: Cavalex Models Redland/Lafarge PGA
Post by: RBE on March 05, 2019, 06:58:27 PM
Thank you for the feedback guys.

I have changed the thread title as suggested, also regarding the email order process on our site, the 2mm PGA is the last model to use that method of pre-order. We now have an online google form in place that allows you to place your orders by filling out the form which is then sent to us and stored on the cavalex google database.

This has proven to be excellent for our recent BBA wagon in 4mm.

Regards
Cav
Title: Re: Cavalex Models Redland/Lafarge PGA
Post by: Ali Smith on April 14, 2019, 04:54:54 PM
I was about to express interest in a dozen of these but there isn't a functioning website at present, the email form doesn't work and I suspect the email address is wrong.
Title: Re: Cavalex Models Redland/Lafarge PGA
Post by: Branchie on April 14, 2019, 05:28:28 PM
The website is work in progress it seems.

The email address is legit.
Title: Re: Cavalex Models Redland/Lafarge PGA
Post by: RailGooner on April 14, 2019, 06:16:30 PM
 :hmmm: Though with the website offline, info on the model can't be accessed to inform one's interest!
Title: Re: Cavalex Models Redland/Lafarge PGA
Post by: Ali Smith on April 14, 2019, 08:03:03 PM
I sent an e-mail to cavalexmodels@gmail.com rather than cavalexmodes as it says on the placekeeper website and it didn't get bounced back so I suppose it has been delivered. Fortunately I had viewed the old website not long ago so I knew what I wanted.
Title: Re: Cavalex Models Redland/Lafarge PGA
Post by: nookfield on April 14, 2019, 08:31:12 PM
I'm in the same position, but don't know what options/livery I want without seeing them on the website. Was going to order a rake of 30, maybe I'll give it a miss.

Seems poor planning removing the website with discounted orders closing tomorrow.
Title: Re: Cavalex Models Redland/Lafarge PGA
Post by: RBE on April 14, 2019, 10:27:41 PM
Hi all sorry for any confusion, we are currently changing the website which will allow direct online ordering of products, this has meant taking the previous site offline to make the change. We hope to have it back up and running this week, the shop may not be ready initially but at least we will have the main pages online to see what we have on offer and any associated info.

The email address for any queries is cavalexmodels@gmail.com
Title: Re: Cavalex Models Redland/Lafarge PGA
Post by: jpendle on April 15, 2019, 03:40:36 AM
OK so now Iím confused.

I expressed an interest via the old website about a month ago, but didnít get any response. I thought that there was no order book as such, but that once there was enough interest an invoice would be sent to me for the ones I had Ďorderedí.

Will I need to place a new order once the website is Ďliveí again?

Regards,

John P

Title: Re: Cavalex Models Redland/Lafarge PGA
Post by: RBE on April 15, 2019, 07:40:29 AM
Hi John, no you wont have to do anything. The new ordering system will be for ordering any new products moving forward. The TEA tank wagon will be the first. Anything thats already gone will stay as is until any future production runs.
Title: Re: Cavalex Models Redland/Lafarge PGA
Post by: woodbury22uk on July 09, 2019, 06:36:34 AM
Looks like more orders will be needed for this to proceed.

https://www.cavalexmodels.com/july2019-update (https://www.cavalexmodels.com/july2019-update)
Title: Re: Cavalex Models Redland/Lafarge PGA
Post by: Branchie on July 09, 2019, 07:34:22 AM
Hope this doesn't impact upon the proposed BBA
Title: Re: Cavalex Models Redland/Lafarge PGA
Post by: carderrail on July 09, 2019, 08:03:29 AM
I fear pre-orders were not helped by the overcomplicated pre-ordering system - it needs to be simple and easy.

Tony

Looks like more orders will be needed for this to proceed.

https://www.cavalexmodels.com/july2019-update (https://www.cavalexmodels.com/july2019-update)
Title: Re: Cavalex Models Redland/Lafarge PGA
Post by: Graham on July 09, 2019, 08:08:37 AM
I fear pre-orders were not helped by the overcomplicated pre-ordering system - it needs to be simple and easy.

Tony

also not helped by the website not catering for VAT free orders outside of EU, that was something Revolution got right from the start.
Title: Re: Cavalex Models Redland/Lafarge PGA
Post by: Bob G on July 09, 2019, 08:20:27 AM
Its not exactly a prototype that could have many different liveries either.
I'd really love a new model PGA but I want the Yeoman one, not the Redland one, so I'm sticking with my incorrect Farish model instead. The OO fraternity have the old Lima now Hornby Yeoman PGA so Cavalex are not going to be doing that one long time soon.

There is something else - you have to connect with your clients. The old adage "People buy People" really does apply, so you need to get out there and engage with people. Revolution do this so well, at TINGS, DEMU, Ally Pally, etc.
And selling IS hard work.
Just because you have designed the best thing since sliced bread, unless you can convince the market to buy it, it just wont sell.
None of us actually have to part with our money, after all.

I've just bought two Taffy Tanks not because I really needed them, but mostly because of the engagement Sonic had through Revolution with the buyers. Sonic worked in the background, and Revolution, knowing nothing about kettles, still got us engaged.

Bob
Title: Re: Cavalex Models Redland/Lafarge PGA
Post by: Bealman on July 09, 2019, 09:17:41 AM
Too right, mate.

I got the email from Revolution today, and I'm very close to ordering one of those tank engines!
Title: Re: Cavalex Models Redland/Lafarge PGA
Post by: njee20 on July 09, 2019, 09:23:12 AM
Hope this doesn't impact upon the proposed BBA

The BBA has only ever been OO gauge though, hasn't it? Their OO gauge models seem to sell well, just not the N gauge ones.
Title: Re: Cavalex Models Redland/Lafarge PGA
Post by: crewearpley40 on July 09, 2019, 09:28:18 AM
Agree would sell
Title: Re: Cavalex Models Redland/Lafarge PGA
Post by: Branchie on July 09, 2019, 09:31:36 AM
Hope this doesn't impact upon the proposed BBA

The BBA has only ever been OO gauge though, hasn't it? Their OO gauge models seem to sell well, just not the N gauge ones.

Morning njee. The BBA has also been proposed in N gauge. According to their website, its still in the design stage.
Title: Re: Cavalex Models Redland/Lafarge PGA
Post by: Bob G on July 09, 2019, 09:38:25 AM
Hope this doesn't impact upon the proposed BBA

The BBA has only ever been OO gauge though, hasn't it? Their OO gauge models seem to sell well, just not the N gauge ones.

Morning njee. The BBA has also been proposed in N gauge. According to their website, its still in the design stage.
Has the BBA been mentioned on here? I have never heard of it before now.
And thankfully it's not in my buying pattern, being ultra modern and all that :)
Bob
Title: Re: Cavalex Models Redland/Lafarge PGA
Post by: njee20 on July 09, 2019, 09:40:41 AM
Hope this doesn't impact upon the proposed BBA

The BBA has only ever been OO gauge though, hasn't it? Their OO gauge models seem to sell well, just not the N gauge ones.

Morning njee. The BBA has also been proposed in N gauge. According to their website, its still in the design stage.

I'm not sure I'd get your hopes up, all their projects show an N gauge model too on the website, but I've only ever seen mention of the OO gauge one (there's a long thread on RMWeb), and its omission from their newsletter may not bode well.

They do seem to be chasing down pretty esoteric prototypes in OO; a subtly different TEA to that of Revolution and Farish, a specific type of PGA, the Bardon JGA seems a weird choice of aggregates model to me.
Title: Re: Cavalex Models Redland/Lafarge PGA
Post by: Branchie on July 09, 2019, 09:42:55 AM
Hope this doesn't impact upon the proposed BBA

The BBA has only ever been OO gauge though, hasn't it? Their OO gauge models seem to sell well, just not the N gauge ones.

Morning njee. The BBA has also been proposed in N gauge. According to their website, its still in the design stage.
Has the BBA been mentioned on here? I have never heard of it before now.
And thankfully it's not in my buying pattern, being ultra modern and all that :)
Bob

Yep, it's been mentioned on here before.

Mot sure I'd call a wagon from the 70s ultra modern ;)
Title: Re: Cavalex Models Redland/Lafarge PGA
Post by: Branchie on July 09, 2019, 09:47:17 AM
Hope this doesn't impact upon the proposed BBA

The BBA has only ever been OO gauge though, hasn't it? Their OO gauge models seem to sell well, just not the N gauge ones.

Morning njee. The BBA has also been proposed in N gauge. According to their website, its still in the design stage.

I'm not sure I'd get your hopes up, all their projects show an N gauge model too on the website, but I've only ever seen mention of the OO gauge one (there's a long thread on RMWeb), and its omission from their newsletter may not bode well.

There's reference to the ngauge version in that thread, and I've spoken to Cav about it as well. We'll see what happens. I've still got a rake of Chivers BBAs anyway  :)
Title: Re: Cavalex Models Redland/Lafarge PGA
Post by: red_death on July 09, 2019, 10:47:26 AM
I've no idea if Cavalex is VAT registered, they might not have been (threshold is £85k and it is easily conceivable that the first run of OO PGAs wouldn't have tipped them over that edge) so there would be no VAT to deduct.

As to choice of prototypes you can't please everyone, all you can do is try to please enough people to make any particular model work.  I like the choice of PGA that Cavalex have gone for - although in long rakes it is a bit geographically restricted, as soon as you look at some of the flows that they get mixed into you realise just how much the PGA complements a lot of other wagons that are available (or will be available soon) eg JGAs, HOAs etc etc. I really hope it makes it over the line.

The BBA seems like a sure fire seller to me. The Bardon JGAs I think are attractive prototypes and certainly recently they've got about a fair bit - there's often a mixed rake I see in the morning at Neasden heading (empty?) north. The TEA is another useful wagon to fill the massive gap between Farish's 1960s TEAs and our 2000s TEAs, plus they are used as barrier wagons for quite a bit of stuff going through Derby (particularly S stock).

Cheers Mike


Title: Re: Cavalex Models Redland/Lafarge PGA
Post by: RailGooner on July 09, 2019, 11:13:12 AM
..
There is something else - you have to connect with your clients. The old adage "People buy People" really does apply, so you need to get out there and engage with people. Revolution do this so well, at TINGS, DEMU, Ally Pally, etc.
And selling IS hard work.
Just because you have designed the best thing since sliced bread, unless you can convince the market to buy it, it just wont sell.
None of us actually have to part with our money, after all.
...

Agree. I'm sick of reading "Well they posted on RMWeb"! Well I'm a member of RMWeb and probably look at it once a month at best. And I never look at RMWeb for news on N Gauge models, I just look at threads on modelling/layouts.

If one was selling posters of Jeremy Corbyn and advertised in the Daily Mail, with a result of very little consumer interest, it would be a nonsense to then declare "Labour supporters won't engage with me and support my products. And it's not my fault, because I've tried to engage with Labour supporters via the widely distributed/circulated Daily Mail!". If one can't be bothered to take the same copy sent to the Daily Mail and send it to the Socialist Worker, then it's one's own fault that there is little to no interest in one's product! If Cavalex and others can't be bothered to do a simple copy-paste from RMWeb (where some may be interested in N) to here (where all are interested in N), well, they can't then bleat on about N Gauge modellers being unresponsive!

 :veryangry: :censored: :veryangry:
Title: Re: Cavalex Models Redland/Lafarge PGA
Post by: crewearpley40 on July 09, 2019, 12:03:33 PM
thanks


more interested in reading about the wagons, not the politics or people 's views  - can we stick to the wagons please ?

i agree with the choice of PGA that Cavalex have gone for and hope this comes to fruition
Title: Re: Cavalex Models Redland/Lafarge PGA
Post by: Bob G on July 09, 2019, 12:13:19 PM
more interested in reading about the wagons, not the politics or people 's views  - can we stick to the wagons please ?

The trouble is that's all that is going to happen - reading about them - unless there is a wider and engaged marketing push from firms like Cavalex and the GT3 mob.
The Emperor had no clothes on for a long time until someone actually stood up and told him to get his kit on!

Bob
Title: Re: Cavalex Models Redland/Lafarge PGA
Post by: njee20 on July 09, 2019, 01:53:14 PM
As to choice of prototypes you can't please everyone, all you can do is try to please enough people to make any particular model work.  I like the choice of PGA that Cavalex have gone for - although in long rakes it is a bit geographically restricted, as soon as you look at some of the flows that they get mixed into you realise just how much the PGA complements a lot of other wagons that are available (or will be available soon) eg JGAs, HOAs etc etc. I really hope it makes it over the line.

The BBA seems like a sure fire seller to me. The Bardon JGAs I think are attractive prototypes and certainly recently they've got about a fair bit - there's often a mixed rake I see in the morning at Neasden heading (empty?) north. The TEA is another useful wagon to fill the massive gap between Farish's 1960s TEAs and our 2000s TEAs, plus they are used as barrier wagons for quite a bit of stuff going through Derby (particularly S stock).

Yes I guess what I meant was that thereís more market in OO to capitalise on those arguably less obvious offerings. The TEAs are a good example - I agree itís a totally different wagon to the other models, but there must be a degree of market saturation from the other two, and in N there just isnít the market size to make things work. The BBA, I agree, seems a far more obvious choice to push.

I think the publicity on the n gauge PGA has been detrimental, possibly underestimating the popularity off the strength of the OO gauge one, they rebuilt their site at an awkward time too. I definitely want a few for a mixed JGA/PGA/HOA rake.

The readership of RMWeb is so much bigger I understand why manufacturers post there, if they copied and pasted stuff to here and didnít come back to answer all the questions I imagine people would be up in arms, a bit of a lose/lose.
Title: Re: Cavalex Models Redland/Lafarge PGA
Post by: Bob G on July 09, 2019, 02:19:42 PM
The readership of RMWeb is so much bigger I understand why manufacturers post there, if they copied and pasted stuff to here and didnít come back to answer all the questions I imagine people would be up in arms, a bit of a lose/lose.

It is hard for new manufacturers to get it right - and also older ones get it wrong too.
Hornby has a very good PR department, but is millions in the red (but mostly due to a period of mismanagement)
Bachmann/Farish used to be good but the new website is a nightmare for model development news.
Peco is I think non existent (apart from Railway Modeller).
Dapol's Digest started with good intentions and has now ground to a halt - so the cost of running such an endeavour should not be underestimated.
Revolution do very well using RMWeb, the Ngauge IO site and the N gauge Forum - perhaps they have no lives outside of work and Revolution?
DJ Models started well, using RMWeb and the N Gauge Forum but again as time progressed, and the questions became more related to product delivery rather than development, it got to a point where Dave stopped using the media at all and (without scope creep) we know what happened in the end.

So what is best? Having run Departments in Multinationals, and now my own business, I'm firmly of the view that if you keep dealing with enquiries and keep the top line (order book) full, most of the stresses of where the costs go don't matter.
If orders/expressions of interest wane, that's when you need to worry.
And that is when many companies cut costs in the wrong places.
Keeping the order book full means keeping your name in people's minds regularly, and for the right reasons.
Revolution have I think achieved this.

Ted Talk Over!
Best
Bob
Title: Re: Cavalex Models Redland/Lafarge PGA
Post by: njee20 on July 09, 2019, 02:47:38 PM
I wanted to avoid appearing a Revolution fanboi (even though that may be entirely the case :D ), but I agree they do very well at social media, which I think is a total minefield, and I don't envy any manufacturer moving into that world!

Dave was overly friendly in his tone and over shared IMO. It felt like he was always posting as "Dave your mate from the pub", which isn't appropriate. Cav and Alex are both long term active posters on RMWeb, and have obviously continued there because it's familiar, which again I wholly understand, even if it does alienate another group (ie a portion of the readership here).

I know there was some really valid constructive criticism levelled at them here (maybe this thread), that their post wasn't sufficiently clear, if you didn't know your TOPS codes, nor who Cavalex was (see previously point that they are well known on RMWeb) then the offering wasn't clear. It's certainly easy to see how you could end up with negative PR from something which should ostensibly be a great platform to connect with your customers.

I really hope they manage to deliver some N gauge wagons (or the 91/mk4s), because I'm a big fan of having more players in the market place, and I think companies like Cavalex, Accurascale and Revolution who are changing the way things are done makes things really exciting as a consumer. If they do them right (as I'm sure they will) the weathered TEAs could be a superb offering.
Title: Re: Cavalex Models Redland/Lafarge PGA
Post by: Bob G on July 09, 2019, 03:04:34 PM
they do very well at social media
Well that rules me out as the voice of reason :)
Title: Re: Cavalex Models Redland/Lafarge PGA
Post by: RailGooner on July 09, 2019, 03:19:10 PM
..
more interested in reading about the wagons, not the politics or people 's views  - can we stick to the wagons please ?
...

My post was about the wagons, using an analogy that referenced politics! :moony:
Title: Re: Cavalex Models Redland/Lafarge PGA
Post by: RailGooner on July 09, 2019, 03:25:08 PM
..
The readership of RMWeb is so much bigger I understand why manufacturers post there, if they copied and pasted stuff to here and didnít come back to answer all the questions I imagine people would be up in arms, a bit of a lose/lose.

They'd only need to visit, say, once a week and spend 20 minutes reading and maybe 40 minutes drafting one reply covering all questions raised in the previous week. If they can't be bothered putting in such little effort to attract my custom, they ain't gonna get my custom.
Title: Re: Cavalex Models Redland/Lafarge PGA
Post by: njee20 on July 09, 2019, 03:30:20 PM
See my subsequent point about alienating a customer base.

That may satisfy your expectation, but you know others will be saying "it's been 5 days, why haven't they replied, they obviously don't care?", and ultimately they're selling products to the OO gauge market as it is. Maybe they're content with that for now, we're here discussing their products without their input.

As two modellers who were already established on one forum I can fully understand their staying there and only coming here occasionally (Cav started this thread). If you have specific questions why not tag them?
Title: Re: Cavalex Models Redland/Lafarge PGA
Post by: crewearpley40 on July 09, 2019, 03:43:17 PM
It has been noted by all. Hope and fingers crossed to a production and sales
Title: Re: Cavalex Models Redland/Lafarge PGA
Post by: red_death on July 09, 2019, 04:16:23 PM
Gah! Browser crashed mid-reply.

Cavalex posted all the info on their website (which is their primary communication tool), certainly our website makes it easy (too easy sometimes!) to auto-post anything that goes on the website straight on to FB and Twitter.  The reality is that Cavalex (like Ben and I) are two people doing it in their spare time. Cav posts on here, but it is perfectly valid (and no slight to the NGF or potential customers) to post on RMweb and not here (or vice versa - it has been several months since I posted on RMweb as I found I was spending way too much time on forums so I've taken a conscious view not to visit so many).

Sorry if it upsets some of our customers(!), but an hour or so a week soon mounts up and where do you stop? RMweb, NGF, Facebook (particularly the FB groups), Twitter, and the 5-10 various other forums that might be interested in a product. So you use the easiest tools and places you are familiar with (and that have a large audience). Again at the risk of offending people, the audience on RMweb is several times the size of here.

Cheers Mike
Title: Re: Cavalex Models Redland/Lafarge PGA
Post by: RailGooner on July 09, 2019, 04:47:07 PM
Well, IMHO regarding the PGA in N, either Cavalex ain't hitting their intended audience, or their audience ain't buying it. Example: I'm their intended audience (modelling 'British Era 8: 1982Ė1994 British Rail Sectorisation' onwards) and I ain't buying it. :P
Title: Re: Cavalex Models Redland/Lafarge PGA
Post by: red_death on July 09, 2019, 05:00:13 PM
That is of course your choice! But if the reason is that Cavalex didn't post regularly enough on the NGF then I hope you don't buy any Farish or Dapol products ;-)
Title: Re: Cavalex Models Redland/Lafarge PGA
Post by: Newportnobby on July 09, 2019, 05:13:22 PM
My only contribution to this thread is that I have no interest in this model and up until now have not heard of let alone had experience of Cavalex, in exactly the same way that could be applied to Sonic until RevolutioN teamed up for the 56xx.
I think it is fairly well known by manufacturers RMWeb is the larger group to aim for, especially if they produce models in more than one gauge. Likewise, they are possibly aware members of the NGF are also members of RMWeb and could transfer info across. Since I joined the NGF in 2011 I've tried to get the likes of Farish, Dapol, DJM, Peco etc to have closer ties with us but, although we achieved some small successes (Farish, Dapol and DJM did at one stage have membership) for whatever reason they have not sustained it or stated why they moved away.
Yes, it may seem a bit blinkered not to use a pure N gauge forum to promote N gauge products rather than a multi gauge medium but, hey, that's their choice (even though, in the main, I believe we are more polite and receptive :))
I wish them all success as, hopefully, it may lead to something I do want.
Title: Re: Cavalex Models Redland/Lafarge PGA
Post by: RailGooner on July 09, 2019, 06:21:37 PM
That is of course your choice! But if the reason is that Cavalex didn't post regularly enough on the NGF then I hope you don't buy any Farish or Dapol products ;-)

The reason isn't that they don't post regularly here Mike, but the result is (partly) because they don't.

Farish, Dapol, et al are of a sufficient size that they needn't do much direct marketing. The retailers and media will do a lot of marketing for them - I receive emails from Hattons, Rails, et al, and read pieces in magazines like RM that wet my appetite and draw my interest.

Despite the constant lament that we in N don't have all the products available we want, I find more available than I can afford. So those who market best will get my custom.

I'm not against Cavalex. I'm for them and all/any other independents. :beers:
Title: Re: Cavalex Models Redland/Lafarge PGA
Post by: njee20 on July 09, 2019, 06:25:10 PM
But youíre well aware of the product now, and this thread started more than 6 months ago. so are you saying youíre not buying them because your budget is  now committed elsewhere, or on principal because they donít post here much...?
Title: Re: Cavalex Models Redland/Lafarge PGA
Post by: emjaybee on July 09, 2019, 06:29:47 PM
Easy on the aggression there mate, not really necessary is it?
Title: Re: Cavalex Models Redland/Lafarge PGA
Post by: RailGooner on July 09, 2019, 06:35:17 PM
Budget (probably over) committed elsewhere - to things that have a higher profile and are more in my consciousness than the PGA. I've been aware of the product for six months, but not always conscious of it.

I have 16 Farish PGAs. I wouldn't mind replacing them all and more with a newer better model. :beers:
Title: Re: Cavalex Models Redland/Lafarge PGA
Post by: njee20 on July 09, 2019, 07:28:50 PM
The Farish model is certainly crying out for upgrade (and itís a different variant) itís why Iím surprised this one hasnít been more popular.

To be fair itís not exactly been shouted about anywhere, the OO gauge one clearly sold far better without needing the same level of promotion.
Title: Re: Cavalex Models Redland/Lafarge PGA
Post by: RBE on July 09, 2019, 08:06:20 PM
Ok well this all got hostile pretty fast!

Lets keep the conversation on track I think. To answer the questions posed I feel that I maybe need to clarify our business currently. Firstly I would like to thank Mike for leaping to our defence. Very much welcome.

So to address our products. As an N gauge modeller myself I have been very keen to release great new models in 2mm as well as 4mm from day one.

All of our products we have presented so far have been as first released in 4mm followed by 2mm some time later. You have to realise that we are 2 guys who have families and work full time jobs and do Cavalex stuff in our spare time. In that spare time we have to push social media, post on forums, organise production and talk to factories and PR with retailers and magazines and also on top of this I do all of our design work in house. Its not a feet up exercise for sure.

As previously mentioned we did initially target RMWeb due to our familiarity with the community and perhaps more importantly that communities familiarity with myself and Alex. Since then though we have had a massive presence on Facebook, Twitter and our own site giving news and regular updates, we want to be as transparent at every stage as we can.

Following the success of the 4mm PGA we completed the design work on the 2mm version as promised and released it for pre-order. I also posted on here that the wagon was avilable and we had a lot of pre-orders placed. We have sadly though not achieved the required number so far to make the project viable and as such it cannot currently go ahead. It is our full intention to make all of our wagons and stock available in both scales but in order to do that we need the support of the N gauge community.

Granted we haven't posted much on here but we also haven't gotten to the pre-order stage with any other item of stock so far than the PGA wagon, which we have posted this thread on.

If you are reading this thread then you then have knowledge of us and thus the ability to visit our site see what we have to offer. You can choose to follow our facebook or twitter sites or sign up for our newsletter on our website. We have a big online presence which takes up a vast amount of our spare time, we are just not massively present on here currently in most part to the limited stock that we have for 2mm. To say we don't do PR is a little unfair I think.

We are trying to make the whole process of seeing our stuff and making orders much better moving forward but we cannot do that without the support of customers like yourselves, I have to say that I was dissappointed to read that we were being boycotted simply because we don't have a big presence on here. As was mentioned the PGA has been on here some time and our website outlines what our plans are moving forward.

We have recently started doing shows with our stand (we will be at Warley this year if anyone would like to come up and chat and maybe give us pointers at what 2mm modellers need to see from us to be invested in what we do).

Our biggest hurdle with 2mm so far are the retailers who are just not willing at all to invest in N gauge (approx 20% the sales of OO). With that in mind it is even more important that we get the publics support and we are quite upset that we have somehow obtained a bad reputation for PR on here where everywhere else you look we are viewed with high regard.

Whilst I agree that Mike and Ben do a great job with PR for Revolution, their business was started and focussed from day on on N gauge. Mike and Ben were also already big names in N gauge circles which already put them on your radar. They have both been a really great help to us during our infancy.

All I can say is that we are approachable guys and eager to answer questions so please message us or pop along to any of our shows and talk to us (we recently did DEMU). We are more than happy to talk.

Regards
Cav



Title: Re: Cavalex Models Redland/Lafarge PGA
Post by: Newportnobby on July 09, 2019, 09:21:17 PM
Global Moderator Comment Following Cav's explanatory post I'm almost tempted to lock the thread as the numbers aren't there for the project to proceed at present and to prevent bad feeling being expressed by some to the detriment of this thread. Please keep personal remarks to yourselves in future posts
Title: Re: Cavalex Models Redland/Lafarge PGA
Post by: crewearpley40 on July 10, 2019, 05:27:41 AM
thank you for the explanatory post cav, wishing you well in endeavours
Title: Re: Cavalex Models Redland/Lafarge PGA
Post by: Graham on July 10, 2019, 06:36:27 AM
thank you for the explanatory post cav, wishing you well in endeavours
here here!

Hope all works out for you guys, it takes guts to make this sort of leap and we may not have been as helpful as we should have been.
Title: Re: Cavalex Models Redland/Lafarge PGA
Post by: RailGooner on July 10, 2019, 08:21:50 AM
..
 I have to say that I was dissappointed to read that we were being boycotted simply because we don't have a big presence on here.
...

Having reread the entire thread post by post, I can't find mention of any such boycott. Perhaps you read that on RMWeb(?). :D

I stand by my earlier comments about the importance of keeping a product in the customer's consciousness. I have a significant redundancy payment due me at the end of this month. Some will be spent on model trains. Some may be spent on Cavalex PGAs. I don't know - twenty days is nineteen more than my aging brain needs to forget something. I'm now signed up to the newsletter, so maybe there'll be a newsletter posted around payday to jog my memory. :beers:
Title: Re: Cavalex Models Redland/Lafarge PGA
Post by: RBE on July 10, 2019, 09:01:37 AM
Two quotes from yourself

"Well, IMHO regarding the PGA in N, either Cavalex ain't hitting their intended audience, or their audience ain't buying it. Example: I'm their intended audience (modelling 'British Era 8: 1982Ė1994 British Rail Sectorisation' onwards) and I ain't buying it."

And

"Despite the constant lament that we in N don't have all the products available we want, I find more available than I can afford. So those who market best will get my custom."

Both statements imply that you won't be buying Cavalex models whether thats how it was intended or not.

As I said, we have a massive PR presence that Will our PR guy is constamtly updating and forwarding on through various channels. Just not on here. That is the only difference and as said before we don't have a massive 2mm range yet so until that is the case its difficult to push on here and be relevant. I admit we maybe could remind people more but there is a fine line between reminding people and pestering for sales.

By your own admission Bachmann and Dapol dont advertise here either. The issue with us to be fair has been a lack of interest from retailers in N, they just won't touch it, which is a shame I think. The guy at Hattons even said they don't do N as it doesn't sell, which is clearly rubbish as I pretty much buy all my stock from there if I'm after new stuff. But thats what we are dealing with.

To attack us and claim that we are whining about not getting orders is plain silly in my view. We certainly aren't whining beyond our disire to provide our models in N gauge as well as OO. We are doing well enough in OO to not even bother with N and if the retailers are to be believed we are better off not bothing with N at all as the sales aren't there. I'd like to think thats not true.

As an N gauge modeller myself I see the benefit of the scale and would love to provide access of the models to the people modelling in 2mm but ultimately its the modeller who will decide what we release in this scale as without the support of the N gauge community we simply cannot justify the time and cost involved in producing N gauge stock.

Maybe the PGA is too niche a wagon to sell well in N who knows but as our first 2mm model we are gauging our potential in N moving forward on how people react to it and presently it is not encouraging for us. Which is a shame I think.
Title: Re: Cavalex Models Redland/Lafarge PGA
Post by: Bealman on July 10, 2019, 09:25:54 AM
Moderator Comment I really don't think as an N Gauge forum, we are doing anybody any favours here. Let's give this a chance or the thread will be closed.
Title: Re: Cavalex Models Redland/Lafarge PGA
Post by: Bob G on July 10, 2019, 09:37:18 AM
Maybe the PGA is too niche a wagon to sell well in N who knows but as our first 2mm model we are gauging our potential in N moving forward on how people react to it and presently it is not encouraging for us. Which is a shame I think.

I think the N gauge client base really need it spelled out to them what the wagon does, when it was in service, where it went. And quite often too. I've noticed that they dont go back on a thread to look for the information that has already been provided.
A lot of modellers don't have in depth knowledge of particular locos let alone wagons - whereas there are a lot more "knowledgeable" folk on RM-Web and Southern Email Group, for instance. Again it's probably down to membership size.

In N we do need a new PGA, as we also need a new HEA, and VBA, and PCA tanks...
but I'm particularly after a new Yeoman PGA, and I can see why you would not be offering one of those, as the OO market is already covered.

There really was no intention to berate you other than to say this community can be quite needy when it comes to information :)

Best
Bob
Title: Re: Cavalex Models Redland/Lafarge PGA
Post by: RBE on July 10, 2019, 09:54:17 AM
Thanks for that Bob.

There is an extensive background documentation section on our website if you would like to research where these wagons have run and in what rakes/motive power etc. We are very keen to give as much info as we can on all models that we produce.
Title: Re: Cavalex Models Redland/Lafarge PGA
Post by: Snowwolflair on July 10, 2019, 12:54:49 PM
I really don't think as an N Gauge forum, we are doing anybody any favours here.

Let's give this a chance or the thread will be closed.

I agree take a look at this https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-48871456 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-48871456)

The Trolls flush with resent success may be moving on to Cavalex
Title: Re: Cavalex Models Redland/Lafarge PGA
Post by: jpendle on September 01, 2019, 09:42:27 PM
Well due to a lack of interest this has been cancelled along with any other Cavalex wagons that may have been done in N Gauge.

The CL91 & MK4's stay for now.

I received a newsletter this afternoon from Cavalex with the news.

I think this is a great pity, but as Cavalex inadvertently let every recipient see the mailing list I am not surprised.

The number of people signed up was significantly less than 100, just goes to show how hard it is to get the message out to the N Gauge community.

Also the fact that I am the first to post about this reinforces the lack of interest. (I'm usually one of the last to post as I'm in the US)

Bit of a wake up call for us all here I think.

Regards,

John P


Title: Re: Cavalex Models Redland/Lafarge PGA
Post by: Smiffy on September 01, 2019, 10:06:37 PM
Agree sad to see the PGA and the rest of the possible N models being pulled for now.

The newsletter also mentioned the lack of backing from retailers.   I think this shows how lucky Revolution were when they first started with Rapido taking the gamble to produce the Pendolino, though it was close to hitting the needed Kickstarter numbers.

Regards

Iain
Title: Re: Cavalex Models Redland/Lafarge PGA
Post by: RailGooner on September 01, 2019, 10:17:19 PM
The newsletter I received today (subject: Cavalex Model's OO gauge RTR Class 91 update) made no reference to...  :hmmm: Wait... Oh... I didn't realise I had to click-thru to their site(!). :-[ Talk about burying bad news.

Can't say I'm surprised. Perhaps for the new niche players (Cavalex, RevolutioN, et al) the only modern stock that stands any chance of success is bogie stock or twins. There doesn't seem (to me) to be much price variance between non/bogied modern models from these players. Is the market saying "we'll pay £40-50 for a bogie wagon, but that's too rich for a non-bogie wagon."?
Title: Re: Cavalex Models Redland/Lafarge PGA
Post by: jpendle on September 01, 2019, 10:35:10 PM
I think you had to have expressed an interest in the PCA to get the PCA email/newsletter.

Mine mentioned nothing about the CL91 in the title, it was a PCA (bad)newsletter.

Also Rapido are a manufacturer, not a retailer. I can only assume that retailers didn't want to back the project as they may have had too much unsold stock?

Regards,

John P
Title: Re: Cavalex Models Redland/Lafarge PGA
Post by: RBE on September 01, 2019, 10:42:41 PM
Hi all,

Yes it is sad news for us and especially me as a 2mm modeller myself. We are not canning 2mm altogether however we are having to re-evaluate how we do it. The PGA just didn't get the backing needed from the retailers. The comments from all of our supporting retailers was simply that N gauge doesn't sell well enough to order any.

We are hoping the IC225 will change peoples minds and give us the necessary credentials in 2mm to obtain future pre-order levels.

For everyone that supported the PGA a massive thanks.

Regards
Cav
Title: Re: Cavalex Models Redland/Lafarge PGA
Post by: njee20 on September 01, 2019, 10:53:48 PM
Yes, wishing you the best of luck with the 91 and mk4 sets. A shame not to be seeing the PGAs.
Title: Re: Cavalex Models Redland/Lafarge PGA
Post by: woodbury22uk on September 01, 2019, 11:01:27 PM
Having flagged up the possibility of these wagons when the 4mm ones were announced, I am naturally disappointed by putting the project on the back burner.

https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=34623.msg402766#msg402766 (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=34623.msg402766#msg402766)

I hope now that the Class91 + Mk4s will gain enough support to be realised so Cav and Alex can come back to the freight wagon projects.

Back in the late 1970s I was deeply involved in devising the complicated train plan for these PGAs, so seeing them in my favoured scale would be memorable event.
Title: Re: Cavalex Models Redland/Lafarge PGA
Post by: Graham on September 02, 2019, 01:34:10 AM
I would have loved to have supported this project, but funds only go so far.
Title: Re: Cavalex Models Redland/Lafarge PGA
Post by: Steven B on September 02, 2019, 09:04:51 AM
@Smiffy (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=244) and @jpendle (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=3871) both refer to "PCA" - it's the Cavalex PGA that's been cancelled

The PCA is a completely different wagon - a version done by Farish with another one due from RealTrack Models (https://www.realtrackmodels.co.uk/) and is still very much alive and well.

It's a shame Cavalex have also canned the BBA; Hopefully Revolution or Sonic will pick them up.

Steven B.
Title: Re: Cavalex Models Redland/Lafarge PGA
Post by: Smiffy on September 02, 2019, 09:27:09 AM
@Smiffy (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=244) and @jpendle (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=3871) both refer to "PCA" - it's the Cavalex PGA that's been cancelled

The PCA is a completely different wagon - a version done by Farish with another one due from RealTrack Models (https://www.realtrackmodels.co.uk/) and is still very much alive and well.

It's a shame Cavalex have also canned the BBA; Hopefully Revolution or Sonic will pick them up.

Steven B.

Thanks Steve - I wish I could say that was a typo, but more likely memory failure. Iain
Title: Re: Cavalex Models Redland/Lafarge PGA
Post by: njee20 on September 02, 2019, 09:29:29 AM
There are two versions of PCA from Farish (albeit one not current), and a third forthcoming from Realtrack. Farish also do a PGA of course, but not the same as any of the variants Cavalex were offering. Not at all confusing...   :confused1:
Title: Re: Cavalex Models Redland/Lafarge PGA
Post by: Skyline2uk on September 02, 2019, 12:49:38 PM
I would be disappointed if the 91 didnít succeed and indeed a bit baffled.

(kicks the broken record player)

The Farish 91 is crying out for a re-tool, along with the MK4s and DVT.

Are the 91s forgotten / unloved? With the passing of the HSTs and the publicity around the N Pendolinos, can enough of a buzz be generated (yes I have expressed interest)?

Skyline2uk
Title: Re: Cavalex Models Redland/Lafarge PGA
Post by: Steven B on September 02, 2019, 12:54:33 PM
N Gauge PCAs is quite a complicated subject - just like the real thing:

Poole era Farish made two PCA wagons - one straight barrel, the other the characteristic V tank.

Bachmann-Farish released the later Metalair.

RealTrack are doing the French built (1982-1985) CFMF PCA - these were also the subject of a Taylor kit a good few years ago.

There has only been on RTR PGA - the Farish one that runs on the PCA chassis (complete with discharge pipes!). I'm sure there was a kit version but can't remember who produced it.

Steven B.
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