N Gauge Forum

Your Layout and Models => Signals => Topic started by: Phoenix on December 29, 2018, 01:51:46 PM

Title: Positioning ground signals, if they are needed.
Post by: Phoenix on December 29, 2018, 01:51:46 PM
Hi All,

Just looking for a little advice please.

This is the yard area and signal box on my little Windmill Hill layout. There is a level crossing, but the gates have been removed for "attention" .....

(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/72/5755-281218210409-72734634.jpeg)

I recently bought these ground signals, but am not sure if they are needed or not, and if they are needed, where they should go.

(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/72/5755-281218210408-727292282.jpeg)

Does anyone have any ideas please ?

All best wishes
Kevin

 :beers:
Title: Re: Positioning ground signals, if they are needed.
Post by: Train Waiting on December 29, 2018, 03:22:53 PM
Hello Kevin

It's always nice to see pictures of Windmill Hill.

I have had fun looking back through your thread to see pictures of the yard and have convinced myself that there is not a siding.  Without a siding to shunt in and out of, I don't think that ground signal would be prototypical in this location.  If you fancy signals for the layout, a stop signal each side of the level crossing would look good.

But, importantly, it's your layout so you can have what you want and these 'Tommy Dots' are very nice...

All the very best.

John
Title: Re: Positioning ground signals, if they are needed.
Post by: Phoenix on December 29, 2018, 04:11:45 PM
Hi John,

Many thanks for that  :D

Mainly on the bottom line it will be a loco + autocoach running anti clockwise into the tunnel, so I thought maybe one at the tunnel mouth, or  the wooden crossing, but can't see either would be much use, and there really is no space by the level crossing for anything.

They look nice, but maybe not here  :hmmm:

Hope you are all well,

best wishes,
Kevin

 :beers:
Title: Re: Positioning ground signals, if they are needed.
Post by: njee20 on December 29, 2018, 06:16:48 PM
As John said, ground signals generally control movements out of sidings, or off the main running lines. Since you seem to just have a single track any signals would be unlikely to be ground signals.
Title: Re: Positioning ground signals, if they are needed.
Post by: Phoenix on December 30, 2018, 01:52:34 AM
Thank you njee20,

I was not sure what to do about signalling, if anything, so I appreciate your help  :thumbsup:

I think I will leave the yard as it is, and just get the level crossing back in.

All best wishes
Kevin

 :beers:
Title: Re: Positioning ground signals, if they are needed.
Post by: edwin_m on December 30, 2018, 09:51:32 AM
Ground signals are also found on running lines, for example where locos/trains have to reverse during shunting and to control the entry to sidings.  But I agree there would be none where there is no pointwork. 
Title: Re: Positioning ground signals, if they are needed.
Post by: Newportnobby on January 17, 2019, 12:23:26 PM
As @Phoenix (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=5755) has very kindly donated his ground signals to me (thanks again, Kevin) I need the help with placement now. There is a section at 18.55 in this helpful vid.................



and here is a (poor)pic of what I have..............
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/73/264-170119121210-73228234.jpeg)

I understand from the vid the horizontal red band signifies danger but the ones with the stripe leading from top left to bottom right mean what please? Are they directional? What would be the double headed signal signify please?
TIA
Title: Re: Positioning ground signals, if they are needed.
Post by: GrahamG on January 17, 2019, 02:23:14 PM
Ground disc signals placed one above the other signify different routes, one per disc. When at 45 degrees it is displaying a proceed indication, when horizontal it signifies stop. When mounted one above the other the top disc is for the futhest route to the left with lowest disc being for the route futhest to the right of the route of the top disc. Hope that makes sense.
Graham
Title: Re: Positioning ground signals, if they are needed.
Post by: Newportnobby on January 17, 2019, 09:14:50 PM
Thanks, Graham. I get the 'proceed' bit but in my own examples do they refer to LH points only and a RH point would be shown as the red bar running from top right to bottom left? My knowledge of signalling is worse than my knowledge about DCC or multi coloured worms :dunce:
Title: Re: Positioning ground signals, if they are needed.
Post by: GrahamG on January 17, 2019, 10:46:01 PM
Hi Newportnobby,

The way the diagonal line goes (\ or /) relates to whether the signalling is upper or lower quadrant as in main semaphore signal arms. So in the picture on the front of the BR Signalling film, the disc signal is lower quadrant and the examples you have drawn on your post are upper quadrant.

Where you have more than one mounted vertically they generally refer to different routes and they can be to either side of the line the train is on. I would think that generally a single one would be used for leaving a siding where perhaps there is only one route available. More than one might be used on a main running line to allow a train to set back over to the opposite line or to shunt back into a siding off the same line.

Several times during the rules part of my train driving course the instructor would often say at the end of a particular section "However, there are exceptions", so even what I've said above my vary region to region.

Graham
Title: Re: Positioning ground signals, if they are needed.
Post by: Newportnobby on January 18, 2019, 10:06:06 AM
Aha. I see. I think. Shame it's not as easy as the red bar showing direction.
Still, you have given me some clue and I thank you for that.
Title: Re: Positioning ground signals, if they are needed.
Post by: Train Waiting on January 18, 2019, 02:19:25 PM
Hello Mick

I think Graham's explanations are excellent.  Thank you Graham.

The ground signals you have are what might be called late-models from the semaphore signalling era.

Going back in time you would have seen what looked like miniature signal arms, or even more interesting, something that rotated by 90o to show a red or green plate.  There were lots of other oddities as well such as a hinged plate.  In some ways, these hark back to some of the earliest types of fixed signals.

The red band on your signals can be considered to be a stylised representation of a stop signal arm.

They will look wonderful on your layout!

All the best.

John
Title: Re: Positioning ground signals, if they are needed.
Post by: chrism on January 18, 2019, 04:21:34 PM
There were lots of other oddities as well such as a hinged plate.  In some ways, these hark back to some of the earliest types of fixed signals.

The one I like best is Tom Rolt's mention of the GWRs first fixed signal. Located outside Reading, it comprised a ball pulled up a pole on a rope and pulley when the station was clear for a train to enter - but with no positive indication of danger.
Daniel Gooch's March 1840 regulations said "A Signal Ball will be seen at the entrance to Reading Station when the Line is right for the Train to go in. If the Ball is not visible the Train must not pass it." ;D
Title: Re: Positioning ground signals, if they are needed.
Post by: Train Waiting on January 18, 2019, 04:35:41 PM
There were lots of other oddities as well such as a hinged plate.  In some ways, these hark back to some of the earliest types of fixed signals.

The one I like best is Tom Rolt's mention of the GWRs first fixed signal. Located outside Reading, it comprised a ball pulled up a pole on a rope and pulley when the station was clear for a train to enter - but with no positive indication of danger.
Daniel Gooch's March 1840 regulations said "A Signal Ball will be seen at the entrance to Reading Station when the Line is right for the Train to go in. If the Ball is not visible the Train must not pass it." ;D

Brilliant, thank you.  And ball signals remained in use in the USA until fairly recent times.  I'm not sure if these survivors were just in New England though.  And, of course, the term 'highball' is commonplace in the US.
Title: Re: Positioning ground signals, if they are needed.
Post by: ianzrail on January 18, 2020, 05:07:17 PM
Being new to N gauge (but am an O gauge modeller for many years) where can I buy 2 aspect ground signals, please.

Ian South Zeal Model Railway Group
Title: Re: Positioning ground signals, if they are needed.
Post by: crewearpley40 on January 18, 2020, 05:16:13 PM
Hi for positioning see mick 's video. 2 sources cr signals. Bargain at under 4. Also pd marsh PDX361 sold by expo tools or you could construct your own.
Title: Re: Positioning ground signals, if they are needed.
Post by: njee20 on January 18, 2020, 08:50:13 PM
Dummy or working? CR Signals are the obvious source for working, they're not the cheapest, but coming from O will likely seem a relative bargain ;)
Title: Re: Positioning ground signals, if they are needed.
Post by: crewearpley40 on January 18, 2020, 09:09:55 PM
Prices between 4 to 12
 Dummy I believe. Check website. Or make own
Title: Re: Positioning ground signals, if they are needed.
Post by: njee20 on January 18, 2020, 09:25:45 PM
Yes sorry, I meant was Ian after dummy or working. CR ones are actually 19 working, which is less than I had in mind.

They are very, very small when to scale though, the CR Signals working ones are over scale, if such things worry you.
Title: Re: Positioning ground signals, if they are needed.
Post by: crewearpley40 on January 18, 2020, 09:49:33 PM
I'm making own. Short bit of wire. Plasticard
Title: Re: Positioning ground signals, if they are needed.
Post by: Phoenix on January 18, 2020, 10:10:17 PM
Hi there,

These are the one I passed on to Mick (who gave a donation to the forum funds  :thumbsup:)

https://www.trainshop.co.uk/scenery-n-/9631-n-gauge-painted-ground-signals.html (https://www.trainshop.co.uk/scenery-n-/9631-n-gauge-painted-ground-signals.html)

(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/86/5755-180120214740-863202253.jpeg)

They are the P & D marsh ones Chris mentioned

James at "Detail Matters" also makes some, as well as brass etched point levers

https://www.detailmatters.co.uk/N_scale_SR_Southern_Ground_Signals_-_Pack_of_2_-NON_WORKING-/p2155294_9766149.aspx (https://www.detailmatters.co.uk/N_scale_SR_Southern_Ground_Signals_-_Pack_of_2_-NON_WORKING-/p2155294_9766149.aspx)

https://www.detailmatters.co.uk/N_scale_Trackside_Point_Levers_Painted_4_pack_non_working/p2155294_10250263.aspx (https://www.detailmatters.co.uk/N_scale_Trackside_Point_Levers_Painted_4_pack_non_working/p2155294_10250263.aspx)

(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/86/5755-180120220246-86339397.jpeg)

(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/86/5755-180120220246-86339979.jpeg)

Going off topic (so I won't put the pictures here) James also does excellent N gauge road signs in brass etch  :D

Hope this helps

All best wishes

Kevin

 :beers:

Title: Re: Positioning ground signals, if they are needed.
Post by: crewearpley40 on January 18, 2020, 10:17:17 PM
Thanks Kevin. They look very realistic. Have you experience buying/ using James ' s products please ?
Title: Re: Positioning ground signals, if they are needed.
Post by: ianzrail on January 19, 2020, 01:38:12 PM
Many thanks for all the useful advice.  Perhaps will try to make my own but for the layout I'm involved with, time is not on my side......

Ian
Title: Re: Positioning ground signals, if they are needed.
Post by: crewearpley40 on January 19, 2020, 01:49:58 PM
Ian. In the section signals Lower Quadrant posted about Building a semaphore junction signal , page 2. I used the method with 1.2mm tube as mast too. I found in my local DIY store .8mm red led lights. Super glue on top  piece of .75mm plasticard for dummy signals  red pen or tape at motorist shop,  cut cardboard backing onto disc.  Cut tiny hole to represent liight and bit of tedious but super glue red led. Cheap  and they are dummy. 1 evenings work
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