N Gauge Forum

General Category => Crowdfunding => Topic started by: GrahamB on October 07, 2018, 08:44:57 PM

Title: 2/4EPB's 415's and 416's
Post by: GrahamB on October 07, 2018, 08:44:57 PM
Not sure if I've put this in the right thread but couldn't find a better home.

I visited the Folkestone show today where Bachmann had a stand. They were showing off their latest OO EPB variants and I asked if they would be producing it in N.

Sadly the short answer was "No". It seems the 4 CEP in N was viewed as a commercial flop and they don't want to repeat the "mistake". Given that they are going to produce the 319 I view that as an odd view.

I believe N Train is intending to produce the 2 HAP as a 3D printed body. If that takes off perhaps it would be easier to move into the EPB space - perhaps even the 205/207 Thumpers?

Discuss?
Title: Re: 2/4EPB's 415's and 416's
Post by: njee20 on October 07, 2018, 09:12:35 PM
To my mind the problem with third rail SR EMUs is that there's nothing to run them with. Now that's obviously very chicken and egg, but until a manufacturer comes out with an entirely cohesive range I'm not sure it'll change. It's the sort of arena Revolution may enter - insofar as it's something the mainstream manufacturers are unlikely to touch, and a prime candidate for crowdfunding - if the market exists it's a safe bet, if not nothing happens.

I'd have thought EPBs would be among the better choices, but still can't see much of a market, IMO it's quite 'dilute'; there's no really obvious candidate. Farish doing the unrefurbished CEP was a curious choice - a refurbished one would have opened them up for far more liveries and a broader time period.
Title: Re: 2/4EPB's 415's and 416's
Post by: GrahamB on October 08, 2018, 11:17:31 AM
I'd disagree that there is nothing to run with them. Whilst some of it is currently out of production we have;

33's
73's
08's

4 CEP's

Mark 1 coaches for the loco hauled routes,
Maunsell coaches if modelling earlier electric,
Bullied coaches if modelling earlier electric,
Maunsell brake vans,
Maunsell CCT's,
Mk1 CCT's,
GUV's,
PLV's,
Bogie B's.

Then of course there is the pure freight traffic where a wagon or van is exactly that, regardless of region.

There are also the interlopers, 31's 35's and 47's.

A test launch could be the class 416 (2EPB). If that was a success the 415 (4EPB) would only require the development of the two middle carriages and an unpowered brake van.

As regards liveries, off the top of my head we have;
Green,
Green with SYP,
Green with yellow end,
Blue,
Blue/Grey,
NSE,
Departmental.


Title: Re: 2/4EPB's 415's and 416's
Post by: njee20 on October 08, 2018, 01:10:50 PM
So many grocers apostrophes in one post ;)

I do know what you mean, I'd love to see more SR EMU layouts, and I don't think manufacturers have helped themselves with piecemeal releases which don't go together - Farish's Southern 170 springs to mind! Our time periods of interest are obviously quite different so I defer to your superior knowledge on things like Maunsells - as I wouldn't know one if it ran me over. I certainly think if a manufacturer came out with an NSE EPB it would be at risk of floundering without obvious models to accompany it (although amusingly there's an NSE 33 in the classifieds right beside the reply box as I type!). Conversely if we had the CEPs in NSE that may have been better.

There's then also the threat that Bachmann have done a OO gauge EPB, and whilst they've not got plans to scale it down it would be a brave move to go head to head with them, in case they got the jump on any parallel project.

Not trying to be down - like I say I'd love to see more modern SR layouts, and I'd have a 442 in a heartbeat if one was released.
Title: Re: 2/4EPB's 415's and 416's
Post by: GrahamB on October 08, 2018, 02:34:29 PM
I think the fact you're the only person to reply says a lot for the lack of interest sadly.

I've no special knowledge apart from growing up in Bermondsey between the Bricklayers Arms branch and the main drag to London Bridge does help.

Oh well.
Title: Re: 2/4EPB's 415's and 416's
Post by: snitchthebudgie on October 08, 2018, 03:29:03 PM
Sorry, Graham, I'd better chip in.  I'd be second in line to buy a number of 2 & 4-EPB's and 2-HAP's.  I grew up in Petts Wood on the Victoria-Orpington line, and also grew up with these units.  It took a trip to London to see something exotic like a SUB (or even BEL's, PAN's and the like).

It seems that no-one wants to shrink down 'OO' electrics.  I did wonder about the DJM '71', but he seems to have been diverted onto boring GWR steam locos (dive for cover.... :o)  Jon
Title: Re: 2/4EPB's 415's and 416's
Post by: Intercity on October 08, 2018, 04:24:07 PM
I’ve only seen a handful of SR layouts in both N and that other gauge, they have been very well modeled but needed scratchbuilt MUs, I see many people feel that once an MU has gone around the layout they see the next one as just another MU (the same as the last one, even though it could be an EPB followed by a 4CIG).

Having said that I’d certainly snap up a good amount of MUs if they were produced, but will they be cost effective, for the detailing we expect and the low sales potential the cost of a 4car MU may be quite high.

It will take a huge leap of faith for a manufacturer to commit to SR MUs and produce enough of a variation for it to cover multiple bases/eras, we are seeing that with 25kv MUs (321 struggled, 350 sat on shelves for months/years/319 still waiting, supposedly popular 304/305/308/310 and 312s never made the drawing board)
Title: Re: 2/4EPB's 415's and 416's
Post by: GrahamB on October 08, 2018, 04:25:05 PM
My other layout is GWR but I'm afraid a King is just too big for me.

The 71 would also get my vote.
Title: Re: 2/4EPB's 415's and 416's
Post by: Tank on October 08, 2018, 04:35:39 PM
These would be right up my street, and I'd certainly like to buy a few. :thumbsup:
Title: Re: 2/4EPB's 415's and 416's
Post by: woodbury22uk on October 08, 2018, 07:32:52 PM
For simplicity of tooling I would suggest an MLV which is directly compatible with the 4CEP. But that is just me being selfish. My earliest memory of electric trains was being just south of Balham station with worms passing in all directions. That was the day before the Queen's coronation. In spite of living south of the river for several years in the 1970s and in the 4SUB/EPB era, the London suburban scene does not attract me. However I have long had a desire to put the Airfix SRN4 hovercraft in a scene with an imaginary interchange station not a million miles from Dover Marine/Western Docks. I'd need 4CEPs and MLVs to do that.
Title: Re: 2/4EPB's 415's and 416's
Post by: captainelectra on October 08, 2018, 07:53:09 PM
Bachmann boobed by introducing the 4-CEP as their entry Southern EMU, which only ran in that format until 1980 so missed out on NSE and all the later TOC liveries. A Class 421 4-CIG would have been a much better choice and could still be offered in the all-important BR Green and last right up until the Electrostar age. A CIG would have real crowdfund potential.

Until then, there's always vinyl....;-)
Title: Re: 2/4EPB's 415's and 416's
Post by: Invicta Alec on October 08, 2018, 08:20:46 PM
...........  I'd be second in line to buy a number of 2 & 4-EPB's and 2-HAP's.  I grew up in Petts Wood on the Victoria-Orpington line, and also grew up with these units.   Jon

Jon, I'd be right behind you in the buying queue. These were the trains that took me to school (Bat and Ball to Bromley South). I'll buy a bag full. Green ones, blue and grey ones, NSE ones, I really wouldn't care  :bounce:

I'd also suggest to the guy at Bachmann that he checks out the sky high prices people are willing to pay for second hand 4 CEPs and then get his finger out and produce the promised 319 that shows as "new" in the 2016 catalogue!

Alec.
Title: Re: 2/4EPB's 415's and 416's
Post by: Intercity on October 08, 2018, 08:27:53 PM
If they wanted to revisit the market they could rerelease the CEP in NSE, pretty sure that would be the most popular choice (Jaffa cake and Connex wouldn’t hold the same appeal as a traditional NSE liveried SR EMU)
Title: Re: 2/4EPB's 415's and 416's
Post by: PostModN66 on October 08, 2018, 09:25:26 PM
So many grocers apostrophes in one post ;)

.....grocer's apostrophes?  ;)

Couldn't resist!

Cheers Jon  :)
Title: Re: 2/4EPB's 415's and 416's
Post by: Newportnobby on October 08, 2018, 09:37:08 PM
So many grocers apostrophes in one post ;)


.....grocer's apostrophes?  ;)

Couldn't resist!

Cheers Jon  :)


As 'so many grocers' are plural should that not be "grocers' apostrophes"? :D

@Southernboy (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=105) could you supply details of your EMUs please?
Title: Re: 2/4EPB's 415's and 416's
Post by: nobby on October 08, 2018, 09:56:35 PM
as much as i like n gauge british trains, the way the mainstream manufactures work in this gauge sometimes defies belief i my opinion and i can see why the likes of revolution trains and others are gaining ground.
first of all farish produce a 4 cep unit after telling us for years that muitiple units /overhead electrics dont sell ,  a strange choice to test the market to say the least and a 2 epb or 4 cig  would have been better for the sheer choice of liveries if nothing else, then after 5 years announcement out of the blue a class 319 now either bachmann farish have a really long game plan and i am talking decades here or it was just to shaft a new groups unit to the market  , which lets be fair about this they could have chosen just about anything else. i remember talking to bachmann at warley in 2011 and they were talking about developing the market in the electrics , and funny enough i hear the same about pre big 4 so i will hold my breath and see what happens because i am certainly not going to spend my money on secr stock to get burnt again.
Title: Re: 2/4EPB's 415's and 416's
Post by: GrahamB on October 09, 2018, 07:34:33 AM
Bachmann boobed by introducing the 4-CEP as their entry Southern EMU, which only ran in that format until 1980 so missed out on NSE and all the later TOC liveries. A Class 421 4-CIG would have been a much better choice and could still be offered in the all-important BR Green and last right up until the Electrostar age. A CIG would have real crowdfund potential.

Until then, there's always vinyl....;-)
I know, I need to be brave. What would be really useful is a "how to video". What is the position re the N Trains 2 HAP and vinyl?
Title: Re: 2/4EPB's 415's and 416's
Post by: GrahamB on October 09, 2018, 07:37:51 AM
For simplicity of tooling I would suggest an MLV which is directly compatible with the 4CEP. But that is just me being selfish. My earliest memory of electric trains was being just south of Balham station with worms passing in all directions. That was the day before the Queen's coronation. In spite of living south of the river for several years in the 1970s and in the 4SUB/EPB era, the London suburban scene does not attract me. However I have long had a desire to put the Airfix SRN4 hovercraft in a scene with an imaginary interchange station not a million miles from Dover Marine/Western Docks. I'd need 4CEPs and MLVs to do that.
Actually, I think the MLV would be a good halfway house. I think the chassis would be almost right for the EPB/HAP etc.
Title: Re: 2/4EPB's 415's and 416's
Post by: PostModN66 on October 09, 2018, 09:21:24 AM
So many grocers apostrophes in one post ;)


.....grocer's apostrophes?  ;)

Couldn't resist!

Cheers Jon  :)


As 'so many grocers' are plural should that not be "grocers' apostrophes"? :D

@Southernboy ([url]http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=105[/url]) could you supply details of your EMUs please?


I think it's the apostrophes that are numerous......they could all belong to a single grocer perhaps?  :confused1:

But shouldn't you be keeping us on topic Mick?  :goggleeyes:

Cheers Jon  :)
Title: Re: 2/4EPB's 415's and 416's
Post by: red_death on October 09, 2018, 11:06:01 AM
I'm astonished that Bachmann haven't done the 2EPB in N - it seems like such an obvious choice!  I'd love to have some 2 or 4 EPBs.

Cheers Mike
Title: Re: 2/4EPB's 415's and 416's
Post by: Bob G on October 09, 2018, 11:31:31 AM
Only just seen this thread.

I would have quite a few of these. I have a fleet of 4-CEPs both in green and blue-grey, and some pretend to be BEPs.
I would dearly love to have some EPBs to go with them.

Currently I have a pair of AyJay Tin Hals to do. Those will actually get done, and are quite nice, but

I don't see the point in trying to get these crowdfunded when there is an extant model in OO just waiting to be shrunk by a manufacturer who works in both scales. Best to lobby Farish i think.

Bob

Title: Re: 2/4EPB's 415's and 416's
Post by: cutting42 on October 09, 2018, 11:38:03 AM
So many grocers apostrophes in one post ;)


.....grocer's apostrophes?  ;)

Couldn't resist!

Cheers Jon  :)


As 'so many grocers' are plural should that not be "grocers' apostrophes"? :D

@Southernboy ([url]http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=105[/url]) could you supply details of your EMUs please?


It should be "grocer's apostrophes" as grocer is possessive of the apostrophes making the apostrophe appropriate and as mentioned, the apostrophes are plural.
Title: Re: 2/4EPBs 415s and 416s
Post by: njee20 on October 09, 2018, 12:09:52 PM
The glorious irony of the fact I omitted the apostrophe in my first post isn't lost on me!

I would also argue that grocers' apostrophes would be fine - the grocers (plural) being possessive of the apostrophes, as opposed to a single grocer.

Either way, (and trying to drag us back on topic) we need manufacturers to make more EMUs like VEPs, EPBs and 314s. But fewer apostrophes :)
Title: Re: 2/4EPB's 415's and 416's
Post by: acko22 on October 09, 2018, 12:53:09 PM
Ok so I will start by saying I dont model down south but I do want to see more area more readily avaliable and have zero idea what a VEP, EPB etc are.

But in general electric multiple units seems to be the ginger step kids in general, and 3rd rail powered trains are the adopted ginger step kid of N gauge.
The one get round that could help is if manufacturers really start to use some of the modern designs much more. I know Farish is with the Desiro 350/450 and the 319 (potentially 769 Bi-modals) but you also have the likes of the Electostar sets which operate on 3rd rail, overhead and even a battery power.
I know these are modern and would be of little to no interest for some people but it could be the chicken (or egg depending on how you answer that) to ignite more interest from the market and the manufacturers.

But I think right now there just isnt enough interest there for the manufacturers to justify it, I say this as I look at multiple units I would love but they are just to niche for anyone to have a gamble with just yet but unless someone does there may never be
Title: Re: 2/4EPB's 415's and 416's
Post by: Newportnobby on October 09, 2018, 01:04:27 PM
Step back in time to some old green stock............

http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=378.msg398810#msg398810 (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=378.msg398810#msg398810)

The expertise is available on the forum to 3D print bodies of any unit desired if sufficient quantities make it a goer but sourcing suitable chassis will be a different thing altogether :hmmm:
Title: Re: 2/4EPB's 415's and 416's
Post by: railsquid on October 09, 2018, 01:14:39 PM
Step back in time to some old green stock............

[url]http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=378.msg398810#msg398810[/url] ([url]http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=378.msg398810#msg398810[/url])

The expertise is available on the forum to 3D print bodies of any unit desired if sufficient quantities make it a goer but sourcing suitable chassis will be a different thing altogether :hmmm:


I wonder if there's potential for a small range of chassis units of suitable dimensions for various kinds of multiple unit stock? Similar in concept to the Tomytec ones, which enable you to "plug'n'play" appropriate bogie sideframes and the chassis undergubbins, and have spacers to accommodate variations in length.

Disclaimer: I have little idea of the subtleties of British multiple unit chassis variations so no idea whether such a range would be remotely feasible.
Title: Re: 2/4EPB's 415's and 416's
Post by: PaulCheffus on October 09, 2018, 03:05:45 PM
I wonder if there's potential for a small range of chassis units of suitable dimensions for various kinds of multiple unit stock? Similar in concept to the Tomytec ones, which enable you to "plug'n'play" appropriate bogie sideframes and the chassis undergubbins, and have spacers to accommodate variations in length.

Disclaimer: I have little idea of the subtleties of British multiple unit chassis variations so no idea whether such a range would be remotely feasible.


Hi

Taylor Precision Models did something similar to what you describe but it is sadly no longer available and also required you to assemble it.

It made into a very good running chassis and something I use for all my Southern EMUs.

(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/69/982-091018150357.jpeg)

(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/69/982-091018150854.jpeg)

Cheers

Paul
Title: Re: 2/4EPB's 415's and 416's
Post by: woodbury22uk on October 09, 2018, 05:15:08 PM
The expertise is available on the forum to 3D print bodies of any unit desired if sufficient quantities make it a goer but sourcing suitable chassis will be a different thing altogether :hmmm:

I wonder if there's potential for a small range of chassis units of suitable dimensions for various kinds of multiple unit stock? Similar in concept to the Tomytec ones, which enable you to "plug'n'play" appropriate bogie sideframes and the chassis undergubbins, and have spacers to accommodate variations in length.

Disclaimer: I have little idea of the subtleties of British multiple unit chassis variations so no idea whether such a range would be remotely feasible.
[/quote]


I think there may be potential for a hybrid solution here. A few days back a British enthusiast showed his 3D printed SNCF Z2 EMU on the French N gauge forum. Part of his 3D print includes an insert for a Tomix chassis which has been cut in two. When joined back together the chassis matches the desired bogie centre distance of the Z2.

This is his image of the joined up chassis.

(https://i57.servimg.com/u/f57/16/32/12/23/dd176510.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/16321223/258)

Something could work for British units too, so a kit with an chassis extender (normally) and bogie sides frames would be a great adjunct to 3D printed bodies.

The Z2 EMU is always top of the N gauge polls in France, as it comes in 5 variants which share the same basic bodyshells, and scores of liveries, and runs in many regions of the country. Jouef and Piko make it in H0.

Back in the late 1980s/early 1990s I made a kit for a brass Z2 EMU. Ironically it ran on a Farish Class 158 chassis which had the correct bogie spacing, and a dreadful spring drive, with a Lima Corail coach chassis for the trailer. In those days Graham Farish supplied me with a quantity of bare chassis, at an attractive price.


Title: Re: 2/4EPB's 415's and 416's
Post by: robert shrives on October 09, 2018, 05:59:58 PM
I wonder if there's potential for a small range of chassis units of suitable dimensions for various kinds of multiple unit stock? Similar in concept to the Tomytec ones, which enable you to "plug'n'play" appropriate bogie sideframes and the chassis undergubbins, and have spacers to accommodate variations in length.

Disclaimer: I have little idea of the subtleties of British multiple unit chassis variations so no idea whether such a range would be remotely feasible.


Hi

Taylor Precision Models did something similar to what you describe but it is sadly no longer available and also required you to assemble it.

It made into a very good running chassis and something I use for all my Southern EMUs.

([url]http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/69/982-091018150357.jpeg[/url])

([url]http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/69/982-091018150854.jpeg[/url])

Cheers

Paul

Great chassis build and hope they run well.
Title: Re: 2/4EPB's 415's and 416's
Post by: GrahamB on October 13, 2018, 09:04:17 AM
The wishlist poll on the other forum goes live on Monday http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/page/2018Wishlist (http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/page/2018Wishlist) refers.

The man from Farish suggested that they take note of the results.
Title: Re: 2/4EPB's 415's and 416's
Post by: Newportnobby on October 13, 2018, 09:15:29 AM
I believe this years is 00 only :censored:
Title: Re: 2/4EPB's 415's and 416's
Post by: GrahamB on October 13, 2018, 09:19:34 AM
I believe this years is 00 only :censored:
It looks like you're right http://www.rmweb.co.uk/Wishlist2018/Guide/0.%20Q&A%20+%20Rolling%20Stock%20Jargon%20Buster.pdf (http://www.rmweb.co.uk/Wishlist2018/Guide/0.%20Q&A%20+%20Rolling%20Stock%20Jargon%20Buster.pdf)  :veryangry: :veryangry: :veryangry: :censored:

If that's the case (And I appreciate it's probably not easy), can't we run our own poll - even if it's just a N gauge copy - with the appropriate permissions and acknowledgements of course?
Title: Re: 2/4EPB's 415's and 416's
Post by: Newportnobby on October 13, 2018, 12:32:30 PM
@GrahamB (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=298)
see http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=34878.msg533692#msg533692 (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=34878.msg533692#msg533692)
Title: Re: 2/4EPB's 415's and 416's
Post by: David hale on November 25, 2018, 02:34:53 PM
Have just bought a mint 4cep at a swopmeet, at a very good price. Has taken over a year to find a decent one, Would want any 3rail S.R. e.m.u.. It appears will have to kit bash them same as I did in OO years ago.
Title: Re: 2/4EPB's 415's and 416's
Post by: Newportnobby on November 25, 2018, 03:46:34 PM
Hi David, and welcome aboard :wave:
The SR is not an area I model but I feel the modelling world is poorly catered for in RTR to run 3rd rail units
Title: Re: 2/4EPB's 415's and 416's
Post by: Skyline2uk on November 25, 2018, 04:59:29 PM
Hi David, and welcome aboard :wave:
The SR is not an area I model but I feel the modelling world is poorly catered for in RTR to run 3rd rail units

Wot he said  :wave: :thumbsup:

Skyline2uk