N Gauge Forum

General Category => Crowdfunding => RevolutioN Trains => Topic started by: NGS-PO on September 08, 2018, 11:42:05 AM

Title: Revolution Re-runs
Post by: NGS-PO on September 08, 2018, 11:42:05 AM
I've not seen this reported in amongst the new models.

https://www.revolutiontrains.com/news/ (https://www.revolutiontrains.com/news/)

Details of  new run of Pendolinos in the latest white livery, and another run of TEAs, some original and some new liveries.

The newsletter also shows some painted samples and artwork of the other models.

Best

Scott
Title: Re: Revolution Re-runs
Post by: Tank on September 08, 2018, 11:50:46 AM
Thanks Scott.  Yes, I just found this out myself.  Ben and I had some trouble with emails reaching me, so perhaps this one disappeared.  :(  Still, great news!
Title: Re: Revolution Re-runs
Post by: NGS-PO on September 08, 2018, 11:52:28 AM
Thanks Scott.  Yes, I just found this out myself.  Ben and I had some trouble with emails reaching me, so perhaps this one disappeared.  :(  Still, great news!

Chris, it wasn't a reflection of yourself, I just assumed it was missing info.

Great work on getting the posts up earlier.
Title: Re: Revolution Re-runs
Post by: RailGooner on September 08, 2018, 11:52:36 AM
Thanks for this Scott. :thumbsup: I was about to post on the other thread, asking "what about reruns?" but the thread was locked before I got a chance.
Title: Re: Revolution Re-runs
Post by: monkey_brains on September 08, 2018, 12:26:24 PM
Quite a few new Pendolino options being done by the looks of it

Looking forward to the rerun of the TEAs, missed the last lot and just cant justify the £60 ea the EWS ones have been getting on eBay

 :bounce: :bounce: :bounce:
Title: Re: Revolution Re-runs
Post by: PaulCheffus on September 08, 2018, 09:11:03 PM
Hi

Will the light bars for the Pendolino be re run? I didnít order any originally but now I have my Pendolino I would like some.

Cheers

Paul
Title: Re: Revolution Re-runs
Post by: pape_timmo on September 08, 2018, 11:42:42 PM
Iíd love more Pendoís and TEAs, just got even more saving to do... or a lottery win of more than a lucky dip line ...

Cheers, Timmo
Title: Re: Revolution Re-runs
Post by: njee20 on September 09, 2018, 07:17:14 AM
I think Iíll resist another Pendolino, but would love another rake of EAs. Pricing will be interesting - will it be similar now tooling costs have been amortised, or more expensive with inflationís and currency fluctuations.

Given the latter, plus the fact the market will clearly pay a lot more, given resale values, Iíd assume a fair old price hike!
Title: Re: Revolution Re-runs
Post by: kirky on September 09, 2018, 10:04:51 AM
I think I agree njee. I paid £27 each for my TEAs. I would imagine they will be somewhere near the £40 mark. Just speculating.
Cheers
Kirky
Title: Re: Revolution Re-runs
Post by: monkey_brains on September 09, 2018, 10:10:50 AM
£40 is still a damn site better for me as someone who wants some than the prices they are commanding second hand!
Title: Re: Revolution Re-runs
Post by: Merrylee on September 09, 2018, 11:57:33 AM
GF ones are showing at the 40 quid mark less a bit when they hit the shops.

Scary to think that instead of insuring your overall layout, you'll now be insuring each rake.  :'( :'(

Ron

Title: Re: Revolution Re-runs
Post by: njee20 on September 09, 2018, 12:44:52 PM
If they can stick to £35 or so Iíll probably have another 15, otherwise I imagine Iíll get a smaller rake.
Title: Re: Revolution Re-runs
Post by: red_death on September 10, 2018, 11:31:59 AM
The pricing for the second batch of Pendolinos should be roughly the same as the City of Birmingham sets which were £365 IIRC? The DCC sound fitted versions will be slightly more than £95/set but not much more.

The TEAs we're in negotiation with Rapido about and ultimately some of the cost may depend on whether we need to amend any of the tooling or make assembly more costly to do other variants eg different catwalks/discharge gear/ladders.  We'll definitely do more EWS and we've suggested some others eg Petrochem Carless, the new VTG light grey batch, VTG in FL green ie no FL logo, the other 3 Enviro-blue slogans that we didn't do in the first batch but I think what we'll do is stick a poll up later this week or next on our website to run for say a month asking people which versions they'd like.

Cheers, Mike
Title: Re: Revolution Re-runs
Post by: njee20 on September 10, 2018, 12:04:21 PM
I was tempted to sell my Greenergy rake now for a vastly inflated price and repurchase in the second batch, but maybe I'll hold fire as I'd want to replace them.

Can't decide between EWS or VTG grey for a second rake. Decisions, decisions...
Title: Re: Revolution Re-runs
Post by: RailGooner on September 10, 2018, 12:06:25 PM
Would you include 'Greenergy' in the poll too please Mike - perhaps weighting the 2:1 ratio of Blue:Green in favour of Green this time?
Title: Re: Revolution Re-runs
Post by: njee20 on September 10, 2018, 12:08:25 PM
The real rakes are 2:1 blue:green, so I'd counsel against the reverse in model form.
Title: Re: Revolution Re-runs
Post by: red_death on September 10, 2018, 12:22:55 PM
As Nick says the Greenergy rakes are 2:1 in real life.  We'll include them.

Cheers, Mike
Title: Re: Revolution Re-runs
Post by: Mustermark on September 10, 2018, 12:29:27 PM
Personally, I think an increase in price is in order. The philosophy of crowd funding is that the development costs get covered by backers, and in return they get the first output at a discount. Subsequent production and general release is at a more profitable (but hopefully competitive) price. It works like this on Kickstarter with other projects Iíve backed. No reason for this to be different.

Those who helped to crowd fund might be justified in expecting the price to go up, with the saving they made reflecting payback for the Ďriskí of being a backer. And I hope that RevolutioN (and/or Rapido) can capitalize on the success, generate more income, and keep up the good work of bringing more British N Gauge models to the market.

£365 11-car Pendo still seems like a bargain compared to say, for example, the £480 pricing proposed for the Dapol prototype 10-car HST, or the ~£800 for DJModelsí 14-car APT-P. Having lovingly attempted to make one, Iím definitely up for the HST at Dapolís proposed pricing!

For the TEAs to be competitive with Farish at ~£40 seems pretty reasonable too, especially compared to the eBay prices!

I already bought three Pendos that I canít really justify in ďReading during the early 70sĒ but now I want Virgin Pride!  ::) 

And, of course, a Class 128 Parcels that will fit my era/location!  :D
Title: Re: Revolution Re-runs
Post by: Buzzard on September 10, 2018, 12:42:52 PM
The TEAs we're in negotiation with Rapido about and ultimately some of the cost may depend on whether we need to amend any of the tooling or make assembly more costly to do other variants eg different catwalks/discharge gear/ladders.  We'll definitely do more EWS and we've suggested some others eg Petrochem Carless, the new VTG light grey batch, VTG in FL green ie no FL logo, the other 3 Enviro-blue slogans that we didn't do in the first batch but I think what we'll do is stick a poll up later this week or next on our website to run for say a month asking people which versions they'd like.

Please could the poll cover all builds and liveries?
Title: Re: Revolution Re-runs
Post by: PaulCheffus on September 10, 2018, 12:55:32 PM
[quote author=Mustermark link=topic=42509.msg527591#msg527591
£365 11-car Pendo still seems like a bargain compared to say, for example, the £480 pricing proposed for the Dapol prototype 10-car HST, or the ~£800 for DJModelsí 14-car APT-P. Having lovingly attempted to make one, Iím definitely up for the HST at Dapolís proposed pricing!
[/quote]

Hi

HST - £440 not £480
APT based on the cut down version is £550

So the Pendolino price of £365 is very reasonable.

Chers

Paul
Title: Re: Revolution Re-runs
Post by: Buzzard on September 10, 2018, 04:27:02 PM
So the Pendolino price of £365 is very reasonable.

For an 11 car DC set I agree.

Personally for 9 and 11 car DC sets I'd be asking £355 and £395 respectively.  This being around £100 more than the early bird price of the first run.  However I'm not in that position but given the prices on a particular auction site I think that those figures are still reasonable i.e. I'd pay that much.

Will now be hiding behind the sofa.
Title: Re: Revolution Re-runs
Post by: NGS-PO on September 10, 2018, 07:29:03 PM
By way of further comparison, Rails are pre-ordering the latest Western Pullman in the reversed blue/grey at £322, for 6 vehicles.
Title: Re: Revolution Re-runs
Post by: RailGooner on September 12, 2018, 12:17:28 AM
The real rakes are 2:1 blue:green, so I'd counsel against the reverse in model form.

Thank you. :beers: Lazy me. I'd just assumed they ran alternating 1:1. Well I'll be in for another one or two triple sets. :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Revolution Re-runs
Post by: Intercity on September 12, 2018, 04:18:35 AM
They have proven very popular, but remember that is also in part due to the cost, the pricing they went for (I missed the early bird pricing) was still affordable, Revolution were very good in not pricing themselves out of the market, the eBay prices are not a very good factor to go on, being out of production sellers try to hike up the price however that also puts many buyers out of the market, the demand for sufficient sales may not be there once the few who are willing to pay the high prices have obtained their models.

It needs to be a balance between the original price and what the general modelers can afford (whilst still making a profit)
Title: Re: Revolution Re-runs
Post by: njee20 on September 12, 2018, 08:56:41 AM
Indeed, which is why I worry that £40+ may not yield the big volumes necessary for a run, and a smaller margin on a higher volume would be a better bet.

Clearly this is firmly in "teaching your granny to suck eggs" territory, and I don't doubt Mike and Ben, who have all the information and vastly more business acumen than me will consider all of this and price very reasonably, and in all likelihood given I have the willpower of something famous for a lack of willpower I'll end up with another rake regardless :doh:
Title: Re: Revolution Re-runs
Post by: Karhedron on September 12, 2018, 09:24:31 AM
Assuming that the tooling was paid for by the 1st run (and that is just an assumption) I would guess that a second run will have a bigger profit margin, even at the offered price.

Not privy to any commercially sensitive info but I am sure RevolutioN and Rapido will have negotiated a price that they feel they can sell and balance profit for all concerned against the need to offer value for money (which the Pendolino surely does).
Title: Re: Revolution Re-runs
Post by: cutting42 on September 12, 2018, 11:40:01 AM
Assuming that the tooling was paid for by the 1st run (and that is just an assumption) I would guess that a second run will have a bigger profit margin, even at the offered price.

Not privy to any commercially sensitive info but I am sure RevolutioN and Rapido will have negotiated a price that they feel they can sell and balance profit for all concerned against the need to offer value for money (which the Pendolino surely does).

I have followed the crowdfunding stuff since Revolution started and I wonder if the tooling cost, although an important part and certainly touted as the biggest cost in the past; is now matched or even outdone by the labour cost of assembling and painting the more and more complex models we are getting?
Title: Re: Revolution Re-runs
Post by: Karhedron on September 12, 2018, 12:01:51 PM
The cost between tooling and assembly varies with models. Part of Hornby's much derided "design clever" attempted to produce as much detail as possible using as few components as possible precisely in order to cut down on the "unit cost" (the cost to manufacture each unit).

I know in the past Dapol quoted as a rule of thumb that 10% of the costs of a first run would be R&D, the next 40% would be the tooling. These are referred to as the "fixed costs". The final 50% would be manufacture and distribution which are referred to as unit costs. I suspect the exact percentages vary from model to model but that 10:40:50 ratio is probably a good one to bear in mind. What this shows is that 2nd and subsequent runs will be significantly more profitable as the they can be sold at the same price but only have to cover the unit costs as the fixed costs have already been paid.

I have heard anecdotally that Farish amortise their fixed costs over multiple runs. This could explain why they are more likely to raise prices on existing products compared to Dapol as 2nd and subsequent runs still have to pay off a proportion of the fixed costs while raising costs in China and falls in Sterling mean their unit costs are increasing.
Title: Re: Revolution Re-runs
Post by: woodbury22uk on September 12, 2018, 01:13:33 PM
I think that we can all-too-easily get misled by looking for direct links between costs and selling price. The crowdfunding of the initial Pendolinos and TEAs was enough to get them designed, built and delivered. We know that the Pendolino is a Rapido model created and marketed in Europe by RevolutioN, and I suspect that the first run was not a big profit earner for Rapido although it took up a lot of factory time. Simpler locomotives in H0 without the number of tampo prints probably earn better.

The TEAs were crowdfunded and will have had different cost/earning profiles for the manufacturer and RevolutioN. Pitching the prices at the right level to secure enough volume for reruns will mean hitting the sweet spot where there is enough profit for Rapido, and enough volume for the RevolutioN to want to devote their time and effort to the rerun.

Having carried out some major mailouts in the past I know the downsides of part of your home being stacked out with boxes of products, piles of packaging, invoices, instruction books etc. In any reruns I would like to think that the packing and dispatch processes can be outsourced so that the Hale and Ando homes do not get swamped by distribution. :-).
Title: Re: Revolution Re-runs
Post by: Merrylee on February 09, 2019, 10:31:47 AM
Any updates on the re runs.

Would like a rainbow pendolino......

And some TEAs.....

Ron
Title: Re: Revolution Re-runs
Post by: Spanners70 on February 16, 2019, 03:12:47 PM
Iíd also like to know on the re run schedule and when my next big revolution bill hits my bank... the revolution guys are costing me a fortune...but bloody good models
Title: Re: Revolution Re-runs
Post by: red_death on February 26, 2019, 04:32:52 PM
We've created an expressions of interest form for the proposed re-runs - a mixture of potential new numbers of liveries produced on the first run and some new potential liveries.  We'd really appreciate people letting us know which would be their preferred options as it is very unlikely that we will produce them all!

You may note that we are potentially offering some of the earlier batches (Petrochem Carless, unbranded blue and unbranded grey) however there would need to be a compromise of a full length catwalk (they should have 2/3 length catwalks). We're not overly keen on this compromise, but we'd rather offer you the choice!

The form will be available for about 4 weeks - until 24 March 2019.

It isn't binding/or a pre-order but please try to be realistic.

Edit: forgot the link: http://www.revolutiontrains.com/tea-wagon-project/n-gauge-tea-2nd-run-expressions-of-interest/ (http://www.revolutiontrains.com/tea-wagon-project/n-gauge-tea-2nd-run-expressions-of-interest/)

Thanks, Mike
Title: Re: Revolution Re-runs
Post by: njee20 on February 26, 2019, 04:53:57 PM
Oh no, Iíve waited so long I now donít know what to order...!

Have you got your handy formation diagrams Mike, I feel a mix of VTG grey and EWS is prototypical, but would be interested to see the ones you put together.
Title: Re: Revolution Re-runs
Post by: Buzzard on February 26, 2019, 05:11:34 PM
Have you got your handy formation diagrams Mike,

Try this (from the original TEA thread)

https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=27072.msg294254#msg294254 (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=27072.msg294254#msg294254)
Title: Re: Revolution Re-runs
Post by: marco neri on February 26, 2019, 05:23:11 PM
 :hellosign:
Just left mine...

Marco
Title: Re: Revolution Re-runs
Post by: StufromEGDL on February 26, 2019, 08:08:46 PM
Hi Gang,

Just passed on my request via the website..

Later,
Stu from EGDL.
Title: Re: Revolution Re-runs
Post by: njee20 on February 26, 2019, 09:35:54 PM
Have you got your handy formation diagrams Mike,

Try this (from the original TEA thread)

https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=27072.msg294254#msg294254 (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=27072.msg294254#msg294254)

That appears to just be the artwork for the first run.

It's referred to here (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=27072.254), but I can't find the PDF anymore, it's dropped off the news pages, and isn't on the project page.

I've watched a few videos, but would be interested to know some of the mixed formations!
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