N Gauge Forum

Product Reviews => N Gauge Locos and Rolling Stock Reviews => Coaches => Topic started by: Newportnobby on July 28, 2018, 05:11:43 PM

Title: Farish Birdcage stock
Post by: Newportnobby on July 28, 2018, 05:11:43 PM
Glad I'm in no need for these as, in a newsletter from Kernow today, a pack of 3 of them were priced at £127.95! :goggleeyes:
Strewth!
Title: Re: Farish Birdcage stock
Post by: Bob G on July 28, 2018, 05:37:18 PM
Yep - I saw that too.
RRP is £149.95 - that's OO money for coaches! - and with 15% off that comes to £127.45

TBH I thought the 3 car Bullied set was expensive, and I managed to get one at TINGS a few years back for £80 - that was still over £25/coach, but with RRPs of Mk 1s at £35 now, and Mk 2Fs at £44, the Birdcage set has to be considered niche at £50/coach RRP. I wonder how long we shall wait until it drops to the sub £100 price point - which is probably what I might consider reasonable!!!

Bob
Title: Re: Farish Birdcage stock
Post by: Newportnobby on July 28, 2018, 07:16:45 PM
I wonder how long we shall wait until it drops to the sub £100 price point - which is probably what I might consider reasonable!!!

Bob

I agree with you, Bob, but how long before Farish consider such a lower price unsustainable :hmmm:
Title: Re: Farish Birdcage stock
Post by: thebrighton on July 28, 2018, 08:49:54 PM
Trouble is the cost of research, design and tooling for these latest coaches is probably on a par with a loco. It is the customers perception that a coach should be a fraction of the cost of a loco so manufacturers have to cut margins to the absolute minimum to satisfy the customers possibly unrealistic price expectations. If we continue to demand coaches of the current standards I think we will have to bite the bullet and accept that they will cost more especially pre grouping coaches as I expect sales volumes will never be as high as, say, a Mk1.
I see prices being compared to the cost of OO coaches. They may be a quarter of the size but research etc will have cost exactly the same. Being smaller they are probably more labour intensive to build and with sales volumes lower they should probably cost more. Just because something is smaller doesn't mean it should be cheaper.
Title: Re: Farish Birdcage stock
Post by: Paul-H on July 28, 2018, 09:23:35 PM
Perhaps they should consider offering two ranges like Hornby do with their railroad range

Latest high accuracy and high detailed stock at a premium price and the older long paid for tooling stock at a much more reasonable price.

I know I don't care what the underside of a plank wagon looks like so only buy older stock but for others the detail counts at any cost.

It would be nice to have the choice.
Title: Re: Farish Birdcage stock
Post by: PLD on July 28, 2018, 09:44:23 PM
Perhaps they should consider offering two ranges like Hornby do with their railroad range
We've done that argument many times before...

In short it only works for Hornby by using old tooling (mostly the ex-Lima tools they bought up cheaply) and due to the overall size of the 00 market.

In N, with the smaller total market, splitting sales between two models needing two separate tools or two separate production lines could potentially result in the 'cheaper' model costing more than the current single 'super-detail' model.
Title: Re: Farish Birdcage stock
Post by: Bob G on July 29, 2018, 12:06:00 AM
Folks

I agree with all these points raised.
I just that I don't think the hobby as a whole can sustain it.
And I'm one of the lucky few who isn't typically as constrained by budget as others are (still working, no kids, two incomes, own house, no mortgage).

But even I am shocked by the ambition of Farish at these prices.
There are some Farish products that seem very good value - the Castle with DCC sound and 40 with DCC sound for instance, but three coaches....two of which are identical...

Perhaps this is the point where the likes of Revolution can take the lead with cost effective pricing for the less mainstream products. We have seen these premium products succeed and their resale value skyrocket on EBay, for those who didnt buy in at the start of their projects.
I really wanted the class B tanks to succeed, which is why i drove them so hard, and i am grateful to everyone who bought in to my (and Scotts) idea, and to Revolution for producing them.
The price point was reasonable. No one would expect to pay more than £20 for a four wheel wagon. A reasonable strategy when they were first mooted.

But birdcage stock? Not quite my era, but maybe my region, and a rule 1 possibly? at a price? If Revolution had done these, I suspect they would have been closer to £100 a set (as the birdcage end is basically the same moulding for each of the two end coaches) but Farish are not in the business of producing a low production model (or they are anticipating a low production volume and have priced accordingly).

There is another issue. Desirability.
Take the new Moddelbahn Union Ferry Wagons.
They would be rule 1 for me, but i love the idea of continental stock on UK lines, and i will buy some, but somehow they seem a more manageable price at Ä30 per wagon, two to a coach length, more costly than say the Revolution TEA bogie tanker, but nice in their own right.

It is just that every time a wagon or coach breaks the pain barrier, there is a necessary time for individuals to have to adjustment to the asking price.
Its just like asking over £100 for a loco. We have accepted it now, but two years ago we were in fits over it.

We can absorb a lot but these cost implications are seriously making me think about what I purchase, and as I said above I'm not typically constrained by budget like many others.
I think I, like many, will be assessing what they want and holding fire a lot more than they used to do.
I did fancy a 108 in refurbished livery, but I'd rather have a Western Pullman, for example. And the current RRP for a five plank wagon for £16 is ridiculous.

When I started in this hobby in 1971 the Peco 5 plank wagon was 40p. Its the same mould 45 years later, and it's still a decent wagon, even if it is generic. Brakes in line with the wheels, which Farish never did at the start. A Minitrix Mk 1 was 99p, with nice B4 bogies too.
Now choice is down to getting what you want when production runs are doing what you want, or it will be sold out, so the price is often secondary, except you do of course have a choice not to buy in the first place.

Bob
Title: Re: Farish Birdcage stock
Post by: Newportnobby on July 29, 2018, 10:04:38 AM
I happen to think the forthcoming C class and a pack of the birdcage coaches would look rather nice but will have to wait for much lower prices and take the risk there may not be any.
The problem is, if sales don't go as Bachmann hope then boardroom thinking tends not to be "We've asked too much" but more "There's just not the demand for N there used to be" and that could be the start of a slippery slope.
Title: Re: Farish Birdcage stock
Post by: woodbury22uk on July 29, 2018, 10:23:08 AM
The 60/70 euro coach is commonplace on the continent. Though I do note on this page that there are some old tooling Roco/Fleischmann Eurofimas for 25.90 euros.

http://www.trains160.com/en/8-coaches (http://www.trains160.com/en/8-coaches)
Title: Re: Farish Birdcage stock
Post by: thebrighton on July 29, 2018, 10:43:18 AM

I agree with all these points raised.
I just that I don't think the hobby as a whole can sustain it.

But if that's what it now costs to bring an item to the marketplace and return a profit there's not a lot you can do.

But even I am shocked by the ambition of Farish at these prices.
There are some Farish products that seem very good value - the Castle with DCC sound and 40 with DCC sound for instance, but three coaches....two of which are identical...

I would think they have priced them at a point that will return a profit rather than being ambitious with the price and so what if 2 coaches are identical, does that mean you expect to pay less for 2 identical items? That's not how it works.

Perhaps this is the point where the likes of Revolution can take the lead with cost effective pricing for the less mainstream products. We have seen these premium products succeed and their resale value skyrocket on EBay, for those who didnt buy in at the start of their projects.
No one would expect to pay more than £20 for a four wheel wagon. 

So are you saying less mainstream items shouldn't be offered by the main manufacturers? The fact that Revolution items sell for more on Ebay perhaps the price was set too low or a profitable business isn't so important. Why shouldn't anyone be prepared to pay more than £20 for a wagon? Ok, lets tell Farish/Dapol that that is the price limit and let's wait and see how the quality decreases.

But birdcage stock? Not quite my era, but maybe my region, and a rule 1 possibly? at a price? If Revolution had done these, I suspect they would have been closer to £100 a set (as the birdcage end is basically the same moulding for each of the two end coaches) but Farish are not in the business of producing a low production model (or they are anticipating a low production volume and have priced accordingly).

Good for Revolution although you do seem to be basing your argument of price on a complete guess. If they could do it so cheaply why didn't they? I don't know your connection but this does seem like an advertisement for Revolution. It's great they can do everything more cheaply and of the same quality but I wonder how long the wait would have been for their Birdcage set to arrive.


There is another issue. Desirability.
Take the new Moddelbahn Union Ferry Wagons.
They would be rule 1 for me, but i love the idea of continental stock on UK lines, and i will buy some, but somehow they seem a more manageable price at Ä30 per wagon, two to a coach length, more costly than say the Revolution TEA bogie tanker, but nice in their own right.

But I thought you said no one would expect to pay more than £20 for a four wheel wagon? I make that more than £20.

And the current RRP for a five plank wagon for £16 is ridiculous.
When I started in this hobby in 1971 the Peco 5 plank wagon was 40p. Its the same mould 45 years later, and it's still a decent wagon, even if it is generic. Brakes in line with the wheels, which Farish never did at the start.

I doubt very much they are using the same mould they were using 47 years ago and quoting the price from that time is totally irrelevant. The average house price in 1971 was just over £5500. As the house is the same should it still cost the same.

Sorry but people seem to want a quality product that we could only have dreamed of a few years ago but still want to pay the same as  for the generic, poor quality offerings of the past.
Title: Re: Farish Birdcage stock
Post by: Paul-H on July 29, 2018, 10:50:29 AM
Perhaps they should consider offering two ranges like Hornby do with their railroad range
We've done that argument many times before...

In short it only works for Hornby by using old tooling (mostly the ex-Lima tools they bought up cheaply) and due to the overall size of the 00 market.

In N, with the smaller total market, splitting sales between two models needing two separate tools or two separate production lines could potentially result in the 'cheaper' model costing more than the current single 'super-detail' model.

But then again they do still have the older tooling so there would be no cost involved on that point, From a production point of view having working in injection moulding in the past that it does not take that long to change tools and as their production runs are quite short, it would not be beyond them to run two ranges without affecting prices, so it would be quite feasible (If they wanted) to have two ranges and given haw many complain about the cost of rolling stock they may even find they sell more, as the buyers of high detail high price rolling stock will still buy them and those who would never buy the high price stock would buy the lower detailed lower price stock.

Remember is was not that many years ago (Less than 10) when Farish sold their coaches for under £10. Current prices are well above wage costs, material costs and inflation. Looks to me like they are just milking there ever dwindling customer base and while we still buy them regardless of true value who can blame them, after all it says so in just about every successful business manual (Treat your customers as fools and bleed them for every penny you can).
Title: Re: Farish Birdcage stock
Post by: Bob G on July 29, 2018, 11:26:51 AM
I have to say that I am rambling on and there are indeed many different drivers that affect what I buy, but I have to say price is still an important one.

And if it was an advert for Revolution, that is only because their business model is now successfully proven to work, many times over.
We just have to persuade/demonstrate to them that they can successfully deliver transition period (and earlier) models just as effectively as they can do their post privatisation ones.
Both Revolution and DJModels considered £20 was the price point for 4-wheel wagons when they produced their Class B tanks/Mermaids. That was clearly a buyer driven price point.

Regards
Bob

Title: Re: Farish Birdcage stock
Post by: R Marshall on July 29, 2018, 12:24:54 PM
I saw the birdcage stock (painted examples) at Railex NE yesterday and they looked superb.

Also an unpainted Class C 0-6-0.

If these were models of NER prototypes I would not hesitate to buy. As it is, I'd love to use the carriages under rule 1.

For the record I have no links to Bachmann or Farish and I am a pensioner.

If only these were NER Clerestoreys.

I can't wait for the Thompsons - just wish there were more varieties planned.

I can remember the 70s when the Ivatt 2MT by Minitrix was as good as it got - how much more choice we have now and how far standards have improved.

I honestly think we've nothing to whinge about.
Title: Re: Farish Birdcage stock
Post by: RailGooner on July 29, 2018, 01:20:15 PM
I wouldn't say nothing to whinge about, but certainly nowhere near as much as to warrant the amount of whinging we do. :beers:
Title: Re: Farish Birdcage stock
Post by: Roy L S on July 29, 2018, 04:37:26 PM
Agreed. We need to accept the pricing of new models. Quality is a light year ahead of where it was even fifteen years ago and the real problem is not that models cost too much now (and I have said this before) it is that up until a few years ago they were unsustainably cheap and that had to change.

Personally I doubt there is any way an existing manufacturer will use older tooling (even if it still exists) to do runs of "cheaper" products, it effectively splits their market and doubles their inventory, and assembly is only one part of the cost so I doubt they would be that much cheaper anyway.

Like Bob G, were these LNER coaches and an LNER 0-6-0 steam loco available to accept sound I would buy them, as it is I am sorely tempted but as a pure "Rule 1" I am not sure yet, let's see what else is about closer to the time of release.

I take the view that less can sometimes be more, and as we get better quality products with more features surely we just enjoy quality over quantity? I still reflect on my Peco Jubilee bought in 1978, when we have these pricing discussions. I had to sell several locos and save up to pay the £26.80 it cost back then. It was a quality product and at the time, so far ahead of the competition. I was happy with  just one and that I had had to give up other models to buy it. I suspect current RRP fallowing for inflation would be North of £150 so what has really changed???

The point is that railway modelling, especially N, has never been an especially cheap hobby and manufacturers need to make money to survive and reinvest. There is no entitlement that models must be affordable for all any more than there is any other product or service. For those with smaller budgets there are ways to adapt and still enjoy the hobby fully. For example, for those that shun £20 for a 4 wheel wagon, join the NGS. Yesterday at the AGM I bought three twin Palvan/Medfit kits for £22. That works out at £3.67 per wagon plus paint and transfers and the enjoyment of building them.





Roy
Title: Re: Farish Birdcage stock
Post by: Rabbitaway on July 29, 2018, 05:54:38 PM
So why can Dapol sell fairly new tooled coaches for so much less than Farish, they are a commercial organisation just the same as Farish

The RRP for the birdcage set is outrageous. We should show our opinion and keep our money in our wallets and send a clear message about over priced models particularly compared to the other manufacturers

Title: Re: Farish Birdcage stock
Post by: Roy L S on July 29, 2018, 07:22:51 PM
No it isn't outrageous it is what Bachmann deem to be the required price that justifies their investment, I doubt their margin is that excessive or they are ripping anyone off. If Dapol work on different pricing parameters and that works for you, but their products instead by all means.

An no, "we" shouldn't. If you don't like the price don't buy it others can make their own minds up, many may be perfectly happy to pay the price for such a lovely set of coaches. I repeat there is no entitlement for these models to be priced to meet a certain budget any more than I should expect the Porsche I would like to cost £20k.


Roy
Title: Re: Farish Birdcage stock
Post by: PLD on July 29, 2018, 07:34:14 PM
The RRP for the birdcage set is outrageous. We should show our opinion and keep our money in our wallets and send a clear message about over priced models particularly compared to the other manufacturers
That is YOUR opinion, and I support your right to show it in whatever way you choose; however it is not OUR opinion (I dare say it is not even anywhere near a majority opinion), others may and indeed do think differently and if you wish them to respect and accept your position, you must also respect theirs and not speak as though yours represents everyone's...
Title: Re: Farish Birdcage stock
Post by: Rabbitaway on July 29, 2018, 08:54:27 PM
PLD I do not appreciate being shouted at on a reply to a post with bold upper case text and I suggest we continue any discussion on the subject in a polite and civil manner.

Yes, it is my opinion that the price is outrageous and the theme of this thread is the cost of these particular coaches so therefore it is a debate point.

Value for money is the key issue here and I still maintain that these coaches are poor value. Consider the Dapol MJA twin sets that retails at £37.95 and are being sold for about £32 by many retailers, this does appear to be value for money.

It is noted that Rails have also had the 00 version of the birdcages on a flash sale so it would appear they are not flying of the shelves in 00.

Roy, the comparison to high end cars does not really fully relate as people buy these cars for image and exclusivity which I doubt applies to model railways.

We should note that we are discussing models here as a hobby and therefore should maintain a friendly approach to the discussion

Thanks
Title: Re: Farish Birdcage stock
Post by: PLD on July 29, 2018, 09:06:05 PM
PLD I do not appreciate being shouted at on a reply to a post with bold upper case text
In that case you should not imply that I and others share your opinion when we do not.

Yes, it is my opinion
but it is not a universal opinion i.e "OUR" collective opinion... If you read properly, I am supporting your right to hold that opinion, objecting only to you attributing that opinion to others  :headbutt:
Title: Re: Farish Birdcage stock
Post by: Newportnobby on July 29, 2018, 09:20:15 PM
Can we just calm it down please? As I said in the OP, I have no need of these and certainly won't pay c.£43 for a coach (he said, waiting to hear what the new Thompsons will cost). Rabbitaway is quite right in that Dapol can produce decent coaches and sell them for less but, hey, we as mere customers are not privy to their business models so can only guess. Those who want them will buy them. Those who don't needn't. One thing's for sure, exhorting folks to boycott buying anything as a protest will be a complete waste of time and effort.
Title: Re: Farish Birdcage stock
Post by: Bob G on July 29, 2018, 10:22:35 PM
They are also exquisite, which is why I will be patient to see what happens to the prices over time.

And I am sure if they were available singly, then the odd one could be seen in Engineer's Red, making it suitable for a BR blue layout !!!

Best
Bob
Title: Re: Farish Birdcage stock
Post by: Ben A on July 30, 2018, 01:59:19 PM
So are you saying less mainstream items shouldn't be offered by the main manufacturers? The fact that Revolution items sell for more on Ebay perhaps the price was set too low or a profitable business isn't so important. Why shouldn't anyone be prepared to pay more than £20 for a wagon? Ok, lets tell Farish/Dapol that that is the price limit and let's wait and see how the quality decreases.

<snipped>

Good for Revolution although you do seem to be basing your argument of price on a complete guess. If they could do it so cheaply why didn't they? I don't know your connection but this does seem like an advertisement for Revolution. It's great they can do everything more cheaply and of the same quality but I wonder how long the wait would have been for their Birdcage set to arrive.

Hi there,

Just to help with a couple of these points...

The Revolution Class B tankers came about as a direct result of a well reasoned and comprehensive proposal by Bob G and Scotty Stitch, on this forum.  They were kept informed of our progress at each stage of development, consulted on CADs and livery drawings, and their help, freely given, was invaluable.  That is their connection with Revolution.

In terms of eBay pricing, Revolution (Mike and I, basically!) have always been very clear that we will do all we can to ensure that those who step up and support our projects (and, in doing so, make them happen) get the best price.  Those who hang back will pay more, whether buying from eBay or retailers.  We do this by strictly limiting supply.

In terms of our pricing, as Lindi rightly pointed out we have a far fewer overheads than the mainstream manufacturers and our products are, in effect, sold to crowdfunders at roughly the trade price.   Our Class B tankers, which could be pre-ordered for £19.50, are around £27 from those retailers that have any left.  Similarly our Cargowaggon twin van sets were £36 in advance, but are likely to be around £45-50 from retailers.

In terms of asking why Revolution aren't looking at these Birdcage coaches, the obvious answer is that Farish announced them in July 2014 before Revolution existed!

cheers

Ben A.
Title: Re: Farish Birdcage stock
Post by: thebrighton on July 30, 2018, 02:50:02 PM

The Revolution Class B tankers came about as a direct result of a well reasoned and comprehensive proposal by Bob G and Scotty Stitch, on this forum.  They were kept informed of our progress at each stage of development, consulted on CADs and livery drawings, and their help, freely given, was invaluable.  That is their connection with Revolution.

In terms of eBay pricing, Revolution (Mike and I, basically!) have always been very clear that we will do all we can to ensure that those who step up and support our projects (and, in doing so, make them happen) get the best price.  Those who hang back will pay more, whether buying from eBay or retailers.  We do this by strictly limiting supply.

In terms of our pricing, as Lindi rightly pointed out we have a far fewer overheads than the mainstream manufacturers and our products are, in effect, sold to crowdfunders at roughly the trade price.   Our Class B tankers, which could be pre-ordered for £19.50, are around £27 from those retailers that have any left.  Similarly our Cargowaggon twin van sets were £36 in advance, but are likely to be around £45-50 from retailers.


Cheers Ben although it didn't really need clarifying.
It was suggested Revolution could have done it cheaper which I'm sure you could but as was mentioned you have a very different business model to Farish or Dapol so providing there was demand to make the product worthwhile you would probably have been cheaper. However , one thing your post has shown is that even with fewer overheads keeping a 4 wheel wagon under £20 is nigh on impossible. You have to face facts that if you want to model in British 'N' you are one of a very small group and therefore have to expect to pay for what is a fairly exclusive model even if 'mass produced'.
Title: Re: Farish Birdcage stock
Post by: Ben A on July 30, 2018, 03:37:25 PM
Cheers Ben although it didn't really need clarifying.

<snipped>

However , one thing your post has shown is that even with fewer overheads keeping a 4 wheel wagon under £20 is nigh on impossible. You have to face facts that if you want to model in British 'N' you are one of a very small group and therefore have to expect to pay for what is a fairly exclusive model even if 'mass produced'.

Hi there,

You said you didn't know what the connection was between Bob and Revolution, and said his post read like an advert.  I felt it worthwhile explaining this so other forum members could reach an informed view.

You'll have no disagreement from me on model costs though; I think we do need to accept that if we want highly detailed models (and I certainly do) then we can't expect to pay pocket money prices.

cheers

Ben A.
Title: Re: Farish Birdcage stock
Post by: Ian Morton on July 30, 2018, 04:29:33 PM
With an RRP of £149.95 Bachmann will be selling them to retailers at approx £75 which works out at £25 a coach.

I think you will find that the price to a retailer (inclusive of VAT for the purposes of comparison to the retail price) will be around £100 rather than £75.
Title: Re: Farish Birdcage stock
Post by: CarriageShed on August 06, 2018, 01:17:07 PM
Considering the fact that these coaches were announced in 2014, all anyone had to do was set aside a bit of pocket money each month. Three years of saving about GBP 3.50 a month will get you the set without any perceived pain.
Title: Re: Farish Birdcage stock
Post by: Dickydcc on August 07, 2018, 09:09:04 PM
As someone who has come back to the hobby, I can see that the models are far more detailed & sophisticated than they used to be. So, I guess like everything  (cars for instance) the costs will increase. That said if adults are balking at the prices how is the hobby going to encourage youngsters to get into n gauge??? Without which the long term future can't be bright.....
Title: Re: Farish Birdcage stock
Post by: Newportnobby on January 07, 2019, 07:28:29 PM
Last I saw, the 3 coach set was due in the country this month. Has anyone heard any different please?
Title: Re: Farish Birdcage stock
Post by: Bob G on January 07, 2019, 07:33:16 PM
As someone who has come back to the hobby, I can see that the models are far more detailed & sophisticated than they used to be. So, I guess like everything  (cars for instance) the costs will increase. That said if adults are balking at the prices how is the hobby going to encourage youngsters to get into n gauge??? Without which the long term future can't be bright.....

Still cheaper than the OO equivalent birdcage set. What we lack is the Railroad equivalent that Hornby does in OO, but the size of the market does not currently a lower grade product.

Bob
Title: Re: Farish Birdcage stock
Post by: thebrighton on January 07, 2019, 07:45:56 PM
Last I saw, the 3 coach set was due in the country this month. Has anyone heard any different please?
The release schedule published by Bachmann on 14 December said June along with the C Class.
Title: Re: Farish Birdcage stock
Post by: Newportnobby on April 01, 2019, 03:51:06 PM
Newsletter from Rails of Sheffield today states they should be with Rails in the next 2 weeks :bounce:
Title: Re: Farish Birdcage stock
Post by: Newportnobby on April 12, 2019, 12:50:08 PM
Another newsletter today states Rails will have them next week :laugh3:
I'll have nothing to run them with until the 'C' class 0-6-0 arrives, though :(
Title: Re: Farish Birdcage stock
Post by: Bob G on April 12, 2019, 01:26:55 PM
They were seen in crimson behind standard 4MTs on the southern around Croydon and Redhill
Bob
Title: Re: Farish Birdcage stock
Post by: Newportnobby on April 12, 2019, 04:01:27 PM
Thanks, Bob.
I have an early crest one (372-650) so can at least make a train up until the C class arrives :)
Title: Re: Farish Birdcage stock
Post by: Roy L S on April 12, 2019, 05:13:51 PM
Hmmm...

Aside from a Rule 1 job, how might I justify a set on a BR Eastern Region layout? Was there such a precedent, not necessarily for these coaches but something similar? Gresley coaches got pretty much everywhere in BR days, but I am suspecting that these did not.

Information, thoughts or advice much appreciated..

Roy
Title: Re: Farish Birdcage stock
Post by: crewearpley40 on April 12, 2019, 05:23:15 PM
Maybe a rule 1 enthusiast special or something  like that
Title: Re: Farish Birdcage stock
Post by: austinbob on April 12, 2019, 06:39:29 PM
Hmmm...

Aside from a Rule 1 job, how might I justify a set on a BR Eastern Region layout? Was there such a precedent, not necessarily for these coaches but something similar? Gresley coaches got pretty much everywhere in BR days, but I am suspecting that these did not.

Information, thoughts or advice much appreciated..

Roy
I don't care what region they've run on or what colour they are I want my set of three NOW. :D :laugh3:
Title: Re: Farish Birdcage stock
Post by: austinbob on April 12, 2019, 06:42:51 PM
Oh... And slightly off topic... I want my Farish C class loco NOW.  :claphappy:
Title: Re: Farish Birdcage stock
Post by: Snowwolflair on April 12, 2019, 07:16:17 PM
On eBay tonight. at £137
Title: Re: Farish Birdcage stock
Post by: MKP on April 12, 2019, 07:20:42 PM
All 3 versions arrived in stock this morning in Bideford

They look really good
Title: Re: Farish Birdcage stock
Post by: austinbob on April 12, 2019, 07:31:23 PM
Yippee. Should be with my localish model shop soon. More bread and water for A while.  :D
Title: Re: Farish Birdcage stock
Post by: RailGooner on April 12, 2019, 07:54:56 PM
All 3 versions arrived in stock this morning in Bideford

They look really good

My birthday gift cards might have to be called into service. :D
Title: Re: Farish Birdcage stock
Post by: gc4946 on April 12, 2019, 08:18:22 PM
I don't think they ventured onto GCR's London Extension line, even on specials, so a birdcage set isn't on the cards for me, unfortunately
Title: Re: Farish Birdcage stock
Post by: Bob G on April 13, 2019, 10:09:22 AM
Dont believe the birdcage stock only worked with older engines

Here is a Fairburn with a Birdcage set:
https://www.rail-online.co.uk/p893467614/e8fb5ecc1 (https://www.rail-online.co.uk/p893467614/e8fb5ecc1)

And here is a Standard 4:
https://www.rail-online.co.uk/p974195917/e6654374 (https://www.rail-online.co.uk/p974195917/e6654374)

Here is an R1 0-4-4 with birdcage stock (looking a bit like an M7, so there could be some modellers licence here):
https://www.rail-online.co.uk/p806047507/eacdb058b (https://www.rail-online.co.uk/p806047507/eacdb058b)

And here is a nice Wainwright coppernob (come on UM fans, get asking):
https://www.rail-online.co.uk/p634816492/e5a865f2f (https://www.rail-online.co.uk/p634816492/e5a865f2f)

And if you must have a C class next to a birdcage set...
https://www.rail-online.co.uk/p814111115/e35b141f7 (https://www.rail-online.co.uk/p814111115/e35b141f7)
https://www.rail-online.co.uk/p814111115/e51aa34cc (https://www.rail-online.co.uk/p814111115/e51aa34cc)

I don't think the C classes were necessarily associated with birdcage stock at all.
Possibly the best association is that they both originated on the SECR.

Bob


Title: Re: Farish Birdcage stock
Post by: martyn on April 13, 2019, 12:13:36 PM
I don't know much about the SECR, but Wikipedia suggests that the C class were freight engines, with occasional use on passenger trains.

Tends to back up Bob G's last post.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SECR_C_class

Martyn
Title: Re: Farish Birdcage stock
Post by: Newportnobby on April 13, 2019, 12:46:21 PM
@Bob G (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=1517)
I could do the Fairburn and the Std 4 tank but, being a transition era modeller, my locos are predominantly late crest. When Farish announced the C class and the Birdcage stock I just thought they would make up a really nice combination. The fact they are really SECR is no good to me with my layout being based in Oxfordshire. It's £250 for a train not of my era/location but I like it :D
Title: Re: Farish Birdcage stock
Post by: Train Waiting on April 13, 2019, 01:15:09 PM
@Bob G (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=1517)
I could do the Fairburn and the Std 4 tank but, being a transition era modeller, my locos are predominantly late crest. When Farish announced the C class and the Birdcage stock I just thought they would make up a really nice combination. The fact they are really SECR is no good to me with my layout being based in Oxfordshire. It's £250 for a train not of my era/location but I like it :D

NPN, I think an appropriate phrase is, 'Purchased privately for preservation.'  This can allow all sorts of fun in your era.  And, if the Caledonian 'Single' No. 123 could wander as far as Sussex, then there is a good precedent to see a 'C' in Oxfordshire.  And the Highland Railway 'Big Goods' was a film star in Bedfordshire... or was it Herts?  A long way from Stanley Junction.

Best wishes.

John 
Title: Re: Farish Birdcage stock
Post by: Tim E on April 13, 2019, 06:59:44 PM
Mine arrived today, I have to say they look fantastic!  Rule 1 purchase as my modelling area is Cornwall...

(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/76/1397-130419185843.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=76185)
Title: Re: Farish Birdcage stock
Post by: paulprice on April 13, 2019, 08:20:01 PM
They look like brilliant models but I have just seen the price they are going for, sometimes I'm glad to be an LMS modeller :)
Title: Re: Farish Birdcage stock
Post by: CarriageShed on April 13, 2019, 09:09:53 PM
They look like brilliant models but I have just seen the price they are going for, sometimes I'm glad to be an LMS modeller :)

It'll be Farish Midland clerestory coaches next, just to spite you ;)
Title: Re: Farish Birdcage stock
Post by: paulprice on April 13, 2019, 09:36:55 PM
They look like brilliant models but I have just seen the price they are going for, sometimes I'm glad to be an LMS modeller :)

It'll be Farish Midland clerestory coaches next, just to spite you ;)

oooooooo I have already got pains in my wallet, what a horrible thing to say to a lad :(
Title: Re: Farish Birdcage stock
Post by: snitchthebudgie on April 15, 2019, 08:09:07 PM
I got a crimson set today, and I'm sorry, but they're worth every (well, nearly every) penny.  Probably the best N gauge models I've seen to date, and that even includes Revolution.  :sorrysign:  :NGaugersRule:
Title: Re: Farish Birdcage stock
Post by: Newportnobby on April 15, 2019, 08:15:29 PM
Still waiting for mine :'(
Hurry up, Rails!
Title: Re: Farish Birdcage stock
Post by: austinbob on April 15, 2019, 08:22:03 PM
Picking my set up from my favourite model shop tomorrow. Really looking forward to getting them home to try.  :)
Title: Re: Farish Birdcage stock
Post by: Newportnobby on April 15, 2019, 08:56:02 PM
Picking my set up from my favourite model shop tomorrow. Really looking forward to getting them home to try.  :)

That's right. Go on. Rub it in. :P ;)
What are you going to haul them with, Bob?
Title: Re: Farish Birdcage stock
Post by: snitchthebudgie on April 15, 2019, 09:21:26 PM
Picking my set up from my favourite model shop tomorrow. Really looking forward to getting them home to try.  :)

That's right. Go on. Rub it in. :P ;)
What are you going to haul them with, Bob?

String.....   :sorrysign:
Title: Re: Farish Birdcage stock
Post by: austinbob on April 15, 2019, 09:27:23 PM
Waiting for my C class, This thread says they're really freight locos but I don't care. I've got a couple of beautiful little E1's courtesy of the brilliant Ozymandias (is that spelling right?). Again, according to this thread, I have a Fairburn and a standard 4MT tank which could have hauled the birdcages. Anyways. My layout is a preserved line so I'd be quite happy hauling them with Duchess of Hamilton.
 :D :beers:
Title: Re: Farish Birdcage stock
Post by: CarriageShed on April 16, 2019, 03:19:38 PM
This thread says they're really freight locos but I don't care....

Doesn't matter that much. Goods locos were often drafted in for passenger duty on busy days - summer Saturdays especially. Just imagine it's always Saturday in summer...

Rails payment taken today...
Title: Re: Farish Birdcage stock
Post by: NGS-PO on April 16, 2019, 03:36:39 PM
When would these have been removed from service?
Title: Re: Farish Birdcage stock
Post by: crewearpley40 on April 16, 2019, 03:46:42 PM
has it a guess mid 1950s last withdrawn, i think there may be a set on the bluebell railway
Title: Re: Farish Birdcage stock
Post by: austinbob on April 16, 2019, 04:27:55 PM
Waiting for my C class, This thread says they're really freight locos but I don't care. I've got a couple of beautiful little E1's courtesy of the brilliant Ozymandias (is that spelling right?). Again, according to this thread, I have a Fairburn and a standard 4MT tank which could have hauled the birdcages. Anyways. My layout is a preserved line so I'd be quite happy hauling them with Duchess of Hamilton.
 :D :beers:
Just picked my brown Set up. Very nice so, very pleased.  :beers:
Title: Re: Farish Birdcage stock
Post by: Bob G on April 16, 2019, 04:52:02 PM
They were never painted SR green so stayed in crimson.
Iím guessing some time between 1956 and 1959.
They were culled before the Maunsell stock, for example, which was mainly post 1959.
Iím sure someone else has these dates engraved in their heart
Bob
Title: Re: Farish Birdcage stock
Post by: CarriageShed on April 16, 2019, 05:32:23 PM
They were never painted SR green so stayed in crimson.
Iím guessing some time between 1956 and 1959.
They were culled before the Maunsell stock, for example, which was mainly post 1959.
Iím sure someone else has these dates engraved in their heart
Bob

'SR' being Southern Region of course, rather then the Southern Railway that some of us model, in which case they certainly were green ;)
Title: Re: Farish Birdcage stock
Post by: Bob G on April 16, 2019, 06:32:14 PM
They were never painted SR green so stayed in crimson.
Iím guessing some time between 1956 and 1959.
They were culled before the Maunsell stock, for example, which was mainly post 1959.
Iím sure someone else has these dates engraved in their heart
Bob

'SR' being Southern Region of course, rather then the Southern Railway that some of us model, in which case they certainly were green ;)

Of course :)  Olive is delightful but I hope they were not abused by being painted malachite green, which I do struggle with, even as a Bulleid fan.
Title: Re: Farish Birdcage stock
Post by: Newportnobby on April 17, 2019, 12:55:13 PM
They were seen in crimson behind standard 4MTs on the southern around Croydon and Redhill
Bob

@Bob G (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=1517)
Sorry, Bob. Just to clarify - did you mean the Std 4MT tank or 2-6-0 or both please?
Looks like I'll get my crimson set tomorrow.
Title: Re: Farish Birdcage stock
Post by: Bob G on April 17, 2019, 01:07:14 PM
Hi NPN

Standard 4-MT 2-6-4T and also Fairburn 2-6-4T were used in BR days on the central portion of the Southern commuter lines out to Croydon and Redhill, hauling Birdcage stock, which previously would have been seen mostly on eastern SECR lines. Probably a former SECR route say Cannon Street - Redhill perhaps?

IIRC the Standard 4 2-6-0s were on the LSWR western routes down to Bournemouth and Weymouth. Birdcages didnt get that far west (except on my model :) )

HTH
Bob
Title: Re: Farish Birdcage stock
Post by: Newportnobby on April 17, 2019, 01:27:18 PM
Thanks for that, Bob. I have both the Std 4MT tank and the Fairburn but both are late crest.
However, you have given me an escape route for them...........

They were never painted SR green so stayed in crimson.
Iím guessing some time between 1956 and 1959.


 :D :D
Title: Re: Farish Birdcage stock
Post by: Bob G on April 17, 2019, 01:45:42 PM
Hold your horses NPN!

I found on the SR Email Group that one rake of three, and one birdcage coach moved to a push-pull set, was painted green.
And those people definitely think they know what they are talking about.
if you cross them they send in the comfy chair. But not before they haul you over the coals on line. Viscious lot :)

Still, this won't stop you or I using them in crimson with late crest locos :)

Same as the Southern's Exeter - Exmouth BR Mk 1 non-corridor three sets. Crimson to 1962. Then a quick paint of green before they were taken over by the WR and replaced by DMUs.
The WR then repainted the stock maroon, but they was never used on the Exeter - Exmouth route again.

HTH
Bob
Title: Re: Farish Birdcage stock
Post by: Newportnobby on April 17, 2019, 02:10:37 PM
Hold your horses NPN!

I found on the SR Email Group that one rake of three, and one birdcage coach moved to a push-pull set, was painted green.
And those people definitely think they know what they are talking about.
if you cross them they send in the comfy chair. But not before they haul you over the coals on line. Viscious lot :)


They don't scare me (unless they use the soft cushions :worried:)


Still, this won't stop you or I using them in crimson with late crest locos :)

Bob


True. Big raspberries to the SR Email group. I reckon the Leyland Massive would cope :uneasy:
What about the 3MT tanks? I have a couple of L/C versions - a possibility, perchance?
Title: Re: Farish Birdcage stock
Post by: Bob G on April 17, 2019, 02:22:53 PM
There is a Happy Easter message on the SREmG - think I might avoid answering it :)

To my knowledge the 3-MTs were shedded at Eastleigh and points west, so maybe not.
I feel a search coming on and i'm supposed to be working (self-employed).

Bob
Title: Re: Farish Birdcage stock
Post by: MinZaPint on April 18, 2019, 11:40:03 AM
Mine arrived today, discovered I had ordered these from Rails in August 2014! not a peep from them but saw Osbornes post and here they are, well done MKP :thumbsup:

(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/76/523-180419113419.jpeg)
Title: Re: Farish Birdcage stock
Post by: snitchthebudgie on April 18, 2019, 04:45:16 PM
It was Birdcage night at East Surrey N Gauge....

(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/76/4684-180419164327.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=76326)

(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/76/4684-180419164455.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=76327)
Title: Re: Farish Birdcage stock
Post by: crewearpley40 on April 18, 2019, 05:00:29 PM
looking superb jon - sadly not my era. hope the lovely folk at esng are well. what is the loco hauling them please ? thanks chris
Title: Re: Farish Birdcage stock
Post by: snitchthebudgie on April 18, 2019, 05:17:24 PM
looking superb jon - sadly not my era. hope the lovely folk at esng are well. what is the loco hauling them please ? thanks chris
Farish SR N Class - one of their best
Title: Re: Farish Birdcage stock
Post by: crewearpley40 on April 18, 2019, 05:35:23 PM
a  maunsell 260 ? looks wonderful jon. please send regards to all at esng. the tidbury team


chris
Title: Re: Farish Birdcage stock
Post by: doug22150 on April 18, 2019, 08:31:06 PM
What's wrong with running them behind a Farish Maunsell Mogul? The classic Redhill - Reading formation.  I remember looking down on these trains from Boxhill!
Title: Re: Farish Birdcage stock
Post by: snitchthebudgie on April 18, 2019, 08:34:22 PM
What's wrong with running them behind a Farish Maunsell Mogul? The classic Redhill - Reading formation.  I remember looking down on these trains from Boxhill!

Like this....
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/76/4684-180419164327.jpeg)
Title: Re: Farish Birdcage stock
Post by: doug22150 on April 18, 2019, 08:40:29 PM
Perfect! A sight that I've not seen since the late 1950s!  Also will look good behind an original Bulleid, as on the Kent coast semi-fasts (memories of travelling to Broadstairs in the very early 1950s)!
Title: Re: Farish Birdcage stock
Post by: Kaput on April 21, 2019, 02:35:42 AM
Picked up a set at the York show and somehow it has 2 exactly the same coaches in and doesn't have the centre coach...lol
Title: Re: Farish Birdcage stock
Post by: Newportnobby on April 21, 2019, 10:10:24 AM
Picked up a set at the York show and somehow it has 2 exactly the same coaches in and doesn't have the centre coach...lol

That's horrible luck :(
Managed to get mine yesterday and here they are in the bay platform of Kimbolted...........

(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/76/264-210419095852-763931660.jpeg)

(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/76/264-210419095853-763932432.jpeg)

(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/76/264-210419095856-76398747.jpeg)

I then posed them on Bletchford although the room is still fairly dark even with lights on :-[

(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/76/264-210419095941-764012072.jpeg)

(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/76/264-210419095938-763991961.jpeg)

(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/76/264-210419095937-763991792.jpeg)
Title: Re: Farish Birdcage stock
Post by: MinZaPint on April 21, 2019, 06:42:41 PM
Really Like your Bletchford layout Mick  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Farish Birdcage stock
Post by: Cornish on June 10, 2019, 02:56:49 PM
Gentlemen,

Yes I bit the bullet and bought a set of birdcage Coaches on my last visit to UK. I have to say they are superb to look at.

 However, I have had to modify my layout by increasing my curves to 11.5" plus to stop derailment of these coaches. Is it just me or have others faced this issue?  I find it very strange as I have had no issues with other coaches.
Title: Re: Farish Birdcage stock
Post by: CarriageShed on June 10, 2019, 03:02:56 PM
They could be a little closer coupled than average. I have one location on my layout where there's a minor derailment and it seems to be down to buffer lock. As they won't normally be going down to that part of the layout, I'm not going to worry about it.
Title: Re: Farish Birdcage stock
Post by: Cornish on June 10, 2019, 03:26:37 PM
Thank you for the prompt reply. Clearly they have also scaled down the couplings as well. Hence my older stock working fine.
Title: Re: Farish Birdcage stock
Post by: CarriageShed on June 10, 2019, 03:29:56 PM
I tend to closer couple my own carriage conversions, but it's a case of having to find a coupler length that suits the stock on the curves.

I've also started selecting shorter buffers for conversions too - less chance of the close coupling producing a problem and not particularly noticeable unless you're examining the particular coach in detail. It may be easier to replace the Farish buffers with shorter brass versions if there's a match, rather than rebuilding your track curves.
Title: Re: Farish Birdcage stock
Post by: JanW on June 10, 2019, 04:14:47 PM
However, I have had to modify my layout by increasing my curves to 11.5" plus to stop derailment of these coaches. Is it just me or have others faced this issue?  I find it very strange as I have had no issues with other coaches.

I read somewhere (not here probably, just re-read this thread) that the birdcages derail on the smallest radius curves because of the 7mm wheels that are fitted. Which is scale size.
Measured it on my coaches and they are indeed 7mm.
It seems almost all coaches released earlier have 6mm wheels fitted, maybe that's why you have no problems with those?
Can't test it because all curves on my layout are much wider.

Jan
Title: Re: Farish Birdcage stock
Post by: red_death on June 10, 2019, 05:17:15 PM
It seems almost all coaches released earlier have 6mm wheels fitted, maybe that's why you have no problems with those?


It shouldn't be a problem - for some time (at least since the advent of the new Mk 1s and Mk 2s, Farish have been using the correct size of wheel as appropriate - quite a few coaches run on 7mm wheels).  More likely is that the curves are too tight for the model (which is designed for Peco R2 IIRC - someone on FB was having problems running them on Fleischmann R2 curves which it turns out are much tighter).
Title: Re: Farish Birdcage stock
Post by: CarriageShed on June 10, 2019, 05:24:06 PM
I read somewhere (not here probably, just re-read this thread) that the birdcages derail on the smallest radius curves because of the 7mm wheels that are fitted. Which is scale size.
Measured it on my coaches and they are indeed 7mm.
It seems almost all coaches released earlier have 6mm wheels fitted, maybe that's why you have no problems with those?

Definitely not that, Jan. All my coach rebuilds are fitted with 7mm wheels and they are absolutely fine even on the tightest of my curves (and there are a couple of places that are pretty tight).
Title: Re: Farish Birdcage stock
Post by: JanW on June 10, 2019, 06:10:27 PM
Sorry for the confusion then  :-[
Title: Re: Farish Birdcage stock
Post by: CarriageShed on June 10, 2019, 07:41:53 PM
Sorry for the confusion then  :-[

No confusion at all - it was a fair guess to make. It was just luck that I had the information to hand to know that it's more likely to be buffer lock, but you never can tell in this game :)
Title: Re: Farish Birdcage stock
Post by: portland-docks on July 02, 2019, 07:25:46 PM
id love 2 sets of the birdcages, one set in crimson and one set in the green. however im gonna wait a while for them to drop in price, which they will. They might  be harder to get but they will be available at the right places for the right price.

I myself just could not justify paying the price of a loco for 3 coaches. i appreciated why they are that price, but for me its too much.

Im already grinding my teeth on the prospect of upgrading my WCRC pullmans at £40 a pop...
Title: Re: Farish Birdcage stock
Post by: red_death on July 03, 2019, 11:24:57 AM
id love 2 sets of the birdcages, one set in crimson and one set in the green. however im gonna wait a while for them to drop in price, which they will. They might  be harder to get but they will be available at the right places for the right price.

I myself just could not justify paying the price of a loco for 3 coaches. i appreciated why they are that price, but for me its too much.

While I completely understand your situation, you've hit the nail on the head when you highlight that 3 coaches is the price of a loco - having had quotes for tooling and producing coaches recently I think that what you are seeing is a reflection that tooling different coaches isn't significantly cheaper than tooling a loco. The quality of UK models of coaches has increased dramatically in the last 5 years or so, if anything I'd argue that £50/coach is more likely to be representative of the cost of tooling, production and margins for the manufacturer and retailer.

As an aside they'll only drop in price if thy don't sell out or get close to selling out. At that some point someone is taking a hit (either Farish or the retailer).

Cheers Mike
Title: Re: Farish Birdcage stock
Post by: JayM481 on August 31, 2019, 03:37:55 AM
Before I make an error I'll regret, I have to ask if anyone has opened these up? I like to put little people in my coaches (that's what they're for, after all), and maybe add lighting, but before I make a hash of it myself, I hope there's someone out there who's opened one up and can advise.
Title: Re: Farish Birdcage stock
Post by: JanW on August 31, 2019, 11:44:01 AM
It is not very easy to open them. The underframe is clipped to the body but it's a very firm fit. Pull the body and the underframe apart and try to work your fingernail in the gap to prise them apart. Do NOT use something hard like a screwdriver because you'll damage the body and/or underframe.
Clearances are very tight and it was not easy to do.
But when you succeed it looks like this:

(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/81/5017-310819114036.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=81022)

You can see the clips on the underframe (6) and the corresponding recesses in the glazing strip.

I damaged the footboard a bit when opening (with my fingernails) but it's not too bad:



(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/81/5017-310819114345.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=81023)

Jan
Title: Re: Farish Birdcage stock
Post by: JayM481 on September 01, 2019, 02:02:14 AM
Brilliant. Thank you Jan, the photos do just the trick. I have some plastic wedges that will work perfectly now that I know exactly where to find the clips.

Jay
Title: Re: Farish Birdcage stock
Post by: JanW on September 01, 2019, 11:38:22 AM
That's wonderful. Your answer reminded me of the mobile phone repair kit I have with plastic wedges and shims that will be great for opening coaches too. Thanks!

Jan
Title: Re: Farish Birdcage stock
Post by: red_death on September 01, 2019, 02:40:05 PM
If anyone is looking for cheap birdcage stock then Ian Allan in Birmingham is closing down and has 50% off. Not much Farish left but still quite a few birdcage sets.
Title: Re: Farish Birdcage stock
Post by: nobby on September 05, 2019, 09:15:58 AM
thanks for the heads up RED DEATH nipped up there on Tuesday from Kent to get a brown set, the clearance price was so good i ended up getting the last three sets amongst other things, possible renumbering job in the future me thinks    cheers
Title: Re: Farish Birdcage stock
Post by: Bealman on September 05, 2019, 09:17:48 AM
Lucky so and so!  :thumbsup: ;)
Title: Re: Farish Birdcage stock
Post by: Snowwolflair on September 05, 2019, 09:26:16 AM
If anyone is looking for cheap birdcage stock then Ian Allan in Birmingham is closing down and has 50% off. Not much Farish left but still quite a few birdcage sets.

I wondered why the Waterloo shop looked overstocked the other day, they must be cross shipping stock.  Lets hope it survives as its the last source of N Gauge in Central London.