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Your Layout and Models => Layout Construction => Topic started by: Leon on June 17, 2018, 09:11:54 PM

Title: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on June 17, 2018, 09:11:54 PM
Here it is! For better or for worse, the planning is finished. Of course, there will be more changes, but this is as close as I can get to the image in my mind of what I want it to be. Please don't tell me it won't work!  :D If it won't, I'll know that soon enough and will make whatever adjustments are necessary to get the trains running.

(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/66/6724-170618210328.jpeg)
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on June 17, 2018, 09:48:56 PM
Father's Day brought me an Amazon Gift Certificate. I'd like to buy a good history of the GWR. Any suggestions?

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Dorsetmike on June 17, 2018, 10:51:47 PM
A look at Amazon UK shows quite a few, for your period I would suggest David Wragg's "GWR Handbook" covering 1923 to 1947, don't know if it is also available in USA.

I have his Southern Handbook, it covers most of the relevant topics, history, routes, locos coaches, some stations., mainly text with some pictures

https://www.amazon.co.uk/GWR-Handbook-Western-Railway-1923-47-ebook/dp/B071HHCBP5/ref=sr_1_11?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1529271295&sr=1-11&keywords=gwr+railway+book (https://www.amazon.co.uk/GWR-Handbook-Western-Railway-1923-47-ebook/dp/B071HHCBP5/ref=sr_1_11?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1529271295&sr=1-11&keywords=gwr+railway+book)
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: weave on June 18, 2018, 02:42:01 AM
Hi Leon,

Am no good at track planning and know nothing about GWR books but just to say hi and looking forward to your build.

Looks like an interesting one.

From what you've said on other posts, you take care now.

Cheers weave  :beers:
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: kirky on June 18, 2018, 07:37:31 AM
Hi Leon
That looks really interesting. Quite an unusual track plan, which is quite an achievement in itself. Its not my era or area but interesting all the same.

Just a couple of questions; where does the yellow line go to? Is there another space that you havent drawn?
And I have to ask about a fiddle yard. You dont have one, and that is great if it works for you - its your railway. But if you are like the rest of us, you will have far more stock than will fit on your railway. Just wondering where it will get stored?

Anyway thanks for posting such an interesting concept. Ive often fantacised about Westbury as a possiblity for modelling in modern image.

Cheers
Kirky
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on June 18, 2018, 04:47:24 PM
A look at Amazon UK shows quite a few, for your period I would suggest David Wragg's "GWR Handbook" covering 1923 to 1947, don't know if it is also available in USA.

I have his Southern Handbook, it covers most of the relevant topics, history, routes, locos coaches, some stations., mainly text with some pictures

https://www.amazon.co.uk/GWR-Handbook-Western-Railway-1923-47-ebook/dp/B071HHCBP5/ref=sr_1_11?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1529271295&sr=1-11&keywords=gwr+railway+book (https://www.amazon.co.uk/GWR-Handbook-Western-Railway-1923-47-ebook/dp/B071HHCBP5/ref=sr_1_11?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1529271295&sr=1-11&keywords=gwr+railway+book)

Thanks so much for your reponse. It vendicates an action I've already taken. I've ordered all for of the regional handbooks by David Wragg. Two were available at Amazon and two are being shipped from the UK. I'm still trying to decide between several GWR specific histories.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on June 18, 2018, 04:55:27 PM
From what you've said on other posts, you take care now.

Weave, I guess you're referring to my health. Like all of us post 70 guys, I've my share of ailments, but none that I consider merits complaining! I DO take care, and my decision to build a train layout is part of it. Happiness fuels both our mental and physical health, and you guys (and gals?) seem to be very happy people.  :)  Thanks for your post and please watch out for what this octogenarian (almost) accoomplishes in the weeks and months ahead - if anything! I'll never come close to the quality that I'm seeing produced by so many in this Forum, but I'll have just as much fun.

Leon

Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: port perran on June 18, 2018, 05:06:44 PM
It is all about enjoyment.
Have fun with your layout Leon.
Iím really looking forward to this as I grew up in Trowbridge and spent many hours at Westbury (and bunking the shed).
Iím not as old as you but old enough to remember everyday steam and the huge variety of locomotives to be seen at Westbury.
Enjoy.
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on June 18, 2018, 05:17:14 PM
Just a couple of questions; where does the yellow line go to? Is there another space that you havent drawn?
And I have to ask about a fiddle yard. You dont have one, and that is great if it works for you - its your railway. But if you are like the rest of us, you will have far more stock than will fit on your railway. Just wondering where it will get stored?

Kirky, I really don't like fiddle yards, and I'll not be adding too much rolling stock to the inventory I have already. Everything I have will fit nicely on the layout. If I live long enough, I may complete this layout, but it is planned to occupy me for two years - after which I can reconsider. If my circumstances don't change too much, I've plenty of room to join another board of equal size.

The yellow line is the Bristol to Salisbury line (and on to Southampton, I guess). I'll be running a tank loco and autocoach between Dilton Marsh and Trowbridge. The limitations of my board require distortion of direction, but I'm only trying to "suggest" the destinations. I am attempting to replicate two or three features on the Trowbridge end - the curve after the station and the road crossing before, plus probably a couple of buildings (at some point). Dilton Marsh was just a halt during the time frame I'm modeling, but it will be as realistic as I can make it in the space available.

My intention is to run a Castle Class 5044 Earl of Dunraven pulling four coaches on the up express line, and a goods train on the down line (London via Pewsey to Taunton and Weymouth).

Thanks for your reponse and questions.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on June 18, 2018, 05:22:49 PM
Iím not as old as you but old enough to remember everyday steam and the huge variety of locomotives to be seen at Westbury.

As time permits, I'd really enjoying hearing more about your time in Trowbridge and Westbury, and details about the rolling stock that you observed passing through. The most vivid memory I have of the steam era is the sight of a line of multi liveried locos in Caledonian Station, Edinburgh. I walked through the station two or three times a week in the early '60s.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: port perran on June 18, 2018, 06:30:46 PM
Leon

Many thanks. I think that Iíll drop you a Personal Message if thatís ok re locomotives and stock around Westbury.
I think it might be a bit detailed for the forum.
Iíll send it in the next day or so.

Martin
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Dorsetmike on June 18, 2018, 06:32:19 PM
Quote
The most vivid memory I have of the steam era is the sight of a line of multi liveried locos in Caledonian Station, Edinburgh.

It was even better before nationalisation in 1948, each of the 4 companies had their own livery, admittedly 3 of them were green but different shades of green, freight locos were all black. Coaches were also in distinct liveries, LMS red, LNER teak, SR green, GWR chocolate and cream.

I saw my first diesel about 1960, 3 car DMUs running between Wellington and Lapworth, but still plenty of steam about. My main interest however is 1930s Southern Railway steam although I didn't take much notice until about 1940.

In my school days  (1940s) the Southern line from  Waterloo to Weymouth ran past the school sports field, but close enough to the class rooms for us to just about make out the numbers - those of us interested had our Ian Allan ABC books in our desks so we could mark off the numbers. I've still got a copy of the 1943 edition, getting a bit tattered though! Quite a few on Ebay, prices a bit more than the 1/- when new!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ian_Allan_(publisher) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ian_Allan_(publisher))
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on June 18, 2018, 09:11:36 PM
Mike, thanks for sharing your experiences and the wikipedia article about Ian Allan.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Dorsetmike on June 18, 2018, 10:37:38 PM
No problem Leon, us old'uns gotta keep you young colonials educated  :whistle: ::) :hmmm: :whiteflag:
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: kirky on June 19, 2018, 07:32:39 AM

Kirky, I really don't like fiddle yards, and I'll not be adding too much rolling stock to the inventory I have already.
Thanks for your reponse and questions.

Leon
Hi Leon
Good for you! I t really is your railway and you should run it like you want.
I wish I had your self discipline. My stock box never stops growing - Im afraid I cant resist a bargain. Im looking forward to this develop.

Cheers
Kirky
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: kirky on June 19, 2018, 07:34:22 AM
Leon

Many thanks. I think that Iíll drop you a Personal Message if thatís ok re locomotives and stock around Westbury.
I think it might be a bit detailed for the forum.
Iíll send it in the next day or so.

Martin

Aww, @port perran (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=230) , some of us might well be interested. Go on, make it public...please.

cheers
Kirky
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Dorsetmike on June 19, 2018, 10:49:07 AM
Re the Wragg  handbook, I'm  just rerading my Southern edition and noticed a couple of errors, a photo caption showing an N class 2-6-0 but caption says King Arthur N15 class, although it does get the number correct 31816; the other error is in the text and claims Bulleid retired in anger at the rebuilding of his pacifics, yes he was angry but he retired  in 1949 yet rebuilding was not authorised until 1955 but did not start until 35018 returned to traffic Feb 1856.
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on June 19, 2018, 09:27:02 PM
Re the Wragg  handbook ... noticed a couple of errors

Accuracy is always important, but I'll never recognize those kinds of errors. Still, I'm glad there are people who do!

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on June 19, 2018, 09:54:43 PM
I've created a photo album from the images I took when I visited Westbury. Some of you know the Junction better than I, but my guess is that most have never been through the station. I'm pasting a link to my Westbury album in Google Photos. Double click any image and then click the "info" logo in the upper right corner for information about that particular image.

I'm in the process of re-arranging my office/library to accommadate a layout, and I'm having the baseboard built by a real carpenter. In the meantime, I'm running trains in my mind, and imagining things like inclines that are an integral part of construction. I've lots of questions, and I'll be asking them here - one at a time.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/HMDFfCezrKBXweg6A

Best regards,
Leon

Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: kirky on June 19, 2018, 10:29:40 PM
I've created a photo album from the images I took when I visited Westbury.
[url]https://photos.app.goo.gl/HMDFfCezrKBXweg6A[/url]
Best regards,
Leon

@Leon (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=6724) Lovely set of photographs that. Thank you for posting.
Ive only ever been through Westbury once and of course its a very interesting station/yard. When I've looked back at your plan, I think you've done really well to squeeze in all that track work. Really interested to watch this develop.
Cheers
Kirky
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on June 20, 2018, 12:10:16 AM
I'm considering 5mm Poplar Plywood for my baseboard, topped with either 1/4 inch cork or 1/2 inch foam board insulation. I have a couple of ponds on the lower side of the layout, so I'm leaning toward foam board. I have little elevation to deal with, but the typography in the middle of the layout does rise gradually, and my inclination is to use sheets of polystyrene. Comments?

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: kirky on June 20, 2018, 07:45:47 AM
Persoanlly I would use open frame construction using timber frame work (poplar in North America is far more readily available than it is here in the UK but is a good stable product). I would top the frame work with cut out ply thus making the baseboard an open frame. This will allow you to drop your ponds into the spaces. Have a look here http://www.pls-layouts.co.uk/html/baseboards.htm (http://www.pls-layouts.co.uk/html/baseboards.htm.)
Im not a fan of soft material as a base for the track, I persoanally like something more solid, such as ply wood. 6mm ply is usually OK, if it is well supported. 9mm is absolutely fine. Anything thicker is too big, in my opinion.
Hope this helps.
cheers
Kirky
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on June 20, 2018, 05:36:18 PM

Hi Leon
 stock box never stops growing - Im afraid I cant resist a bargain.

Cheers
Kirky

Kirky, the temptation to acquire is a universal trait to which I'm not immune. I've just ordered a couple wagons from Hatton's. But, my expenditures in the future will be for structures and scenery. I've been filling in my track plan with some representations of buildings, animals, and trees and have decided 32 sq ft is a lot of space to fill. I seriously am thinking now in terms of four years for completion rather than the two I had planned!

BTW, if anybody is reading this, I'm needing a GWR guard van (or two). I have two green BR coaches (probably Lima) I'm willing to trade.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: port perran on June 20, 2018, 06:42:21 PM
Hi Leon

I did say that I would give a few thoughts re my growing up in Trowbridge and frequent visits to Westbury.
Itís outside your chosen era Iím afraid. I was born in 1954 and my spotting memories are really from 62-67.
My early spotting was at Trowbridge where a group of us spent many Saturdays on Trowbridge station or afternoons and evenings at what we called Black Bridge at Ladydown on the Bradford side of Trowbridge.
Black Bridge provided (especially in the period 62-64) many steam locos. There was even a goods loop where 28xx and others were often held as passenger trains passed.
Starting with freight we saw plenty of South Wales to Westbury, Salisbury and the SR. The Dalisbury loco freight was usually in the hands of a 72xx 2-8-2T. Many other freights were hauled by 28xx, 22xx, Halls, Granges and both large and small praries. We still had daily pick up goods (usually pannier hauled). Passenger turns saw Halls, Counties, Manors and Castles on Trains to and from  Bristol. Cardiff and Fishguard from Portsmouth, Salisbury and Westbury as well as praries and panniers on local turns (including to Devizes and Swindon via Holt and Melksham). Wwe also witnessed the introduction of diesels (esp hydraulics) of hymek, warship (rare) and western classes as well as dmus.
Saturday mornings are well remembered on Trowbridge station (with the distinctive smells and sounds of Bowyers bacon factory nearby). We befriended a couple of porters who kept us informed of special trains and treated us to real railway tea!  We also met the 3 legged station cat who reportedly lost a leg in an altercation with a shunting engine.
Moving on to Westbury and what a mecca for trainspotters with the Bristo/S Wales to Salisbury and beyond trains and also to Weymouth. Plus, of course, the main London to Devon and Cornwall expresses. It seemed to be constant action involving virtually every class of WR locos. Including two 56xx 0-6-2tanks used for banking duties on Upton ascudamore bank.
We also saw SR and Standard classes of course particularly from Salisbury tnough 92xxx and WD freight locos were rarer. We saw some ex LMS locos fairly often, especially  lack 5s and 8Fs and on at least 2 occassions ex LNER BIs having worked down from Banbury on freights,
The shed was easy to bunk and always produced at least 40 numbers. In later days, we had the sad sight of withdrawn locos from WR and SR en route to the South Wales scrapyards. Very sad. We would often see trains of 4 or 5 withdrawn locos being hauled dead towards South Wales.
Finally, angling was another passtime. We spent many happy hours at Frogmore Lake. Thatsís not the one near the station but about 250yds further away. An ex mie hole (iron ore). The Westbury avoiding line ran right by the lake and we wouls see heavy London to South West expresses roar by with Castles and Kings (and others) in charge.
Great days.
Only a tiny insight but I hope it gives a flavour of the area in the early 60s. Maybe Iíve made scant mention of diesels but we saw many as the 60s progressed. I copped all the Hymeks, Warships and Westerns plus many early Brush Type 4s and Class 37s. As well as Class 33s from the SR.
Fabulous days and great fun.
Oh.....and I forgot about the pennies on the line. I had them for years but alas they are gone now.
Regards
Martin
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on June 20, 2018, 10:16:20 PM
Hi Leon
I did say that I would give a few thoughts re my growing up in Trowbridge and frequent visits to Westbury.
Regards
Martin

Martin, that was a treat! I'll have a few questions and requests for elaboration, later. One thing you might like to know - that small lake or pond features in my layout, so I asked the barman of The Railway Inn if it was still there. It's not; having been drained for a housing project. There was clearing and construction around the larger pond, but the barman said there was no plan to drain it - just the construction of a road along the southern shore to the area seen in the lower left of my layout. You guessed! It's for another housing development. I've no idea what the construction on the north shore was. Maybe the plan is to have the pond entirely circumnavigated by a road. That is my guess. I've no idea about the fishing, but there is still a sailing club for the local youth.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: port perran on June 21, 2018, 08:17:21 AM
Leon

Glad that was useful. I have lots more memories if you need any more. Plus I have an Uncle, now aged 77, who worked in the rail traffic control office at Westbusy in the late 50s and early 60s. He has a wealth of knowledge re traffic movements.
As for the lakes. The one I used to fish is still very much there. Itís called Frogmore (lying alongside Slag Lane). It is bigger and deeper than the one by the station (Eden Vale Lake). In the early 20th century, the various tin mines (i think there were 9 in all) were connected by a narrow gauge rail system. On sunny days we could see the tracks in a shallower part of the lake with 3 old wagons still sitting there.
The lakes were flooded I think in the 1930s and have been fisheries since the 50s. A few of the smaller ones were indeed filled in revently.
By the way, during the war, there was a military installation about half a mile from the station at Westbury on the Trowbridge line which was rail served until the early 1950s.

Martin
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on June 21, 2018, 09:30:06 PM
Persoanlly I would use open frame construction using timber frame work (poplar in North America is far more readily available than it is here in the UK but is a good stable product). I would top the frame work with cut out ply thus making the baseboard an open frame. This will allow you to drop your ponds into the spaces. Have a look here [url]http://www.pls-layouts.co.uk/html/baseboards.htm[/url] ([url]http://www.pls-layouts.co.uk/html/baseboards.htm.[/url])
Im not a fan of soft material as a base for the track, I persoanally like something more solid, such as ply wood. 6mm ply is usually OK, if it is well supported. 9mm is absolutely fine. Anything thicker is too big, in my opinion.
Hope this helps.
cheers
Kirky


I know open frame construction is frequently recommended, but somehow I can't get my head around that. I will not be doing the open frame construction, so I still have to decide about the material to top the plywood (assuming there isn't a better suggestion). My entire 8' x 10' board will be topped with something for sound deafening purposes. Cork is rather expensive when the majority of the board will then be covered with something else - probably layers of foam board. Insulation foam board takes care of the sound issue and seems, to me, to be sufficiently firm. I've seen video of water features created by removing an area of insulation foam. I think that will work, but would welcome comments from anyone who has done it - with or without success. I appreciate Kirky's suggestion, but when the frame is finished I have to construct the contours and elevations and open frame isn't something I feel confident to handle. I need to make a decision on materials to schedule the carpenter, so all are invited to chip in their "two cents" worth of advice.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on June 21, 2018, 09:41:59 PM
Just received in the mail, today, The Great Western Railway - 150 Glorious Years, the official souvenir Authorized by the Bristish Rail Western Region published in 1984. That should be everything I need to know about GWR. In the meantime, I'm reading The Southern Handbook: The Southern Railway 1923-1947 by Wragg, David which came in yesterday's mail.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on June 21, 2018, 09:52:47 PM
By the way, during the war, there was a military installation about half a mile from the station at Westbury on the Trowbridge line which was rail served until the early 1950s.
Martin

Martin, I went to Google maps and zoomed in on a sattelite view of the Westbury area. There is a faint outline of what could have been a siding approaching Hawkeridge Road at Yarnbrook. Also, there is what might be tarmac with paths to the road and another to the railroad (maybe the remains of a station/parking lot?).

I Do have other questions, but I'll hold them for later.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on June 22, 2018, 04:57:10 PM
I read a few recommendations for insulation board, including the following - I certainly would recommend insulation board. I still have 2-3 boards from circa 1980s that have never warped and will be used later this year, I hope. I personally would avoid plywood - it's hard as nails and reverberates like anything. Yes, I know there are dozens if not hundreds (or more) on the MRF who swear by it but it certainly is not for me.

My idea is to use insulation board as a topping for the plywood. Does anyone think that would be overkill? If I go that route, would the thinner plywood be adequate for my 4' by 8' board? I just like the idea of plywood under a softer surface. I was just reading about sundeala board (which is highly touted by Peco and the N Model Handbook that is my general reference), but when I Goggled to see if I could buy it, or a substitute, in the United States I discovered numerous horror stories about it. So,I guess it boils down to personal preference.

I really would like a round of opinons on my idea before I buy the materials (I've got to grab the carpenter when I can. This time of year it's really hard to find one who will do a small job.)

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on June 22, 2018, 07:31:44 PM
I found an image of a frame for my carpenter to use as a guide. My layout will be 8' x 10'. What do you suggest for sizing the frame lumber? In the picture, it looks like 1" x 6".

Leon

(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/66/6724-220618192559.jpeg)
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: kirky on June 22, 2018, 07:51:28 PM
Ive used Sundeala in the past. Its awful stuff. One drop of water and it expands. It warps like nobodies business. I guess peco recomend it because its easy to push track pins into.
I think your insulation board ontop of ply will certainly work. A member of our club built his layout using the thick two inch board which is foil backed with only an outside fram, no top at all. It worked for him and its a OO model, so I would imagine in N its fine. Its got the advantage of being able to bury things like wire in tube point operating systems. The disadvantage would be it'll be difficult to use underboard components like peco point motors - but you could surface mount them.
Cheers
Kirky
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: kirky on June 22, 2018, 07:55:14 PM
In response to your lumber sizes. 4 inches deep would be more than adequate. If you are not using components under the board, probably 2x1 would be fine. I guess this is a stay at home layout where weight isnt an issue?
cheers
kirky
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on June 22, 2018, 09:23:44 PM
In response to your lumber sizes. 4 inches deep would be more than adequate. If you are not using components under the board, probably 2x1 would be fine. I guess this is a stay at home layout where weight isnt an issue?
cheers
kirky

Yes, this layout will never be moved. I'll be running wire from my points underneath, but not much more. Weight is not a serious issue, but I may be moving the board around within the room where it's located and would like for it to be as light as possible.  I'd prefer 2x1, but saw some suggestions that boards wider than 2' might need something larger than 2x1. I'm not sure why. Thanks for the advice. I'm really flying blind when it comes to technical stuff and need all the guidance I can get.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Innovationgame on June 22, 2018, 09:24:27 PM
I read a few recommendations for insulation board, including the following - I certainly would recommend insulation board. I still have 2-3 boards from circa 1980s that have never warped and will be used later this year, I hope.
I suspect the insulation board in question was fibre board (softboard) that used to be standard in the sixties and right up until the eighties.
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on June 22, 2018, 09:44:02 PM
I suspect the insulation board in question was fibre board (softboard) that used to be standard in the sixties and right up until the eighties.

Laurence, I'm looking at Dow extruded polystyrene foam.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: kirky on June 22, 2018, 09:58:00 PM
The reason I suggested 2x1 is because youve already said you are using poplar. This is usually a very good timber, far less prone to warping than say something like spruce which is usually grown quickly and is less dense. Secondly the construction method suggested in the picture would indicate a box type contruction which is very strong. I dont think you gain much by going bigger especially as youre getting it built by a professional.
cheers

Kirky
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on June 24, 2018, 05:36:38 PM
Including two 56xx 0-6-2tanks used for banking duties on Upton ascudamore bank.
We also saw SR and Standard classes of course particularly from Salisbury tnough 92xxx and WD freight locos were rarer. We saw some ex LMS locos fairly often, especially  lack 5s and 8Fs and on at least 2 occassions ex LNER BIs having worked down from Banbury on freights,
The shed was easy to bunk and always produced at least 40 numbers. In later days, we had the sad sight of withdrawn locos from WR and SR en route to the South Wales scrapyards.
Martin

Martin,

Can you explain "banking duties" and Upton ascudamore bank? What is meant by Standard classes in the context of SR? Also, is WR for Western Region? And, what is WD?

In an earlier post, you mentioned a turntable at Westbury. What can you tell me about Westbury as a terminus? I've seen no other reference to trains terminating in Westbury.

I've assumed from my reading that SR had a regular service through Westbury. Can you provide me with specifics? I noticed when I was at Trowbridge a Southwest Railroad train running through, so I presume that could be a legacy of an older SR service.

What would LMS and LNER trains have been common through Westbury before natualization? Was it common for one region to use another region's rail to move goods and minerals with their own locomotives? Can you elaborate?

The Southern Handbook was the first delivered of my recent purchases, so I'm reading it first. I have the LMS book, and the other two should be here, soon. I'll be reading them all, but the author assumes the reader knows more than I do! Your answers to my questions will be greatly appreciated. Forgive the naivety of some of them; i.e. Standard classes. I've seen that term before, but the reference always assumes the reader knows what it means!

Best regards,
Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Dorsetmike on June 24, 2018, 06:18:01 PM
Banking duties: assistance, (usually from the rear) for trains on gradients/banks, the assisting loco usually referred to as a banker would "buffer up" to the rear of the train, but not coupling to it, usually done at a station stop where the train engine may have difficulty starting a heavy train against the gradient;
typical examples of this would be the 1:37 up from Exeter St Davids to Exeter Central. or leaving Bath green park for the Somerset & Dorset line; on reaching the top of the bank the banker would without the train having to stop, the banker would then cross over to the other track to return to the bottom of the bank for the next train to require its services.

Standard classes were built by British rail and could be allocated to any region: WD is the War Department which had 3 classes of freight locos, (2-8-0, 2-10-0 and 0-6-0 saddle tank) built for the government by various companies, and could be used anywhere in UK or overseas, particularly Europe after the Normandy landings. (Similar USA equivalent would be the Transport Corps locos)

The SR and GWR ran a service from Portsmouth to Cardiff via Salisbury where locos would  usually be changed, in BR days the same service was run by Southern and Western regions, now run by South West trains, but I think now is more often Portsmouth to Bristol.

Locos from other companies would occasionally run on other companies tracks, usually an Excursion or in wartime "anything goes", Ambulance trains, Troop trains, or sometimes on loan to cover a shortage due to heavier traffic or damage by enemy action. Some cross country routes over more than one companies lines would often change locosat a convenient point rather than at the company boundary, example trains from the south coast to the midlands or north would change locos at Oxford or Banbury.

After nationalisation all locos belonged to British Rail so they could send them wherever they wanted.
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Innovationgame on June 24, 2018, 06:46:43 PM
A brilliant exposition, Mike.  :beers:
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: port perran on June 24, 2018, 07:05:48 PM
Hi Leon.
Wow, lots of questions and you are correct, it is often easy to assume either prior knowledge or understanding.
Anyway, to take you questions one at a time.
It should be Upton Scudamore bank which is a steepish incline past the village of the same name. Steam locomotives often struggled for adhesion on steep banks (especially with heavy trains). A banking engine (or sometimes 2 or 3) were added at the end of the train to give it a shove up the bank. The  banking locos would drop off at the top of the bank and return to their stabling point or home depot.
Standard Classes. At Nationalisation of Britains railways in 1948, British Railways (BR) inherited a fleet of locomotives from the main constituent companies. Under the modernisation plan a fleet of new steam locomotives was suggested based on the best principles of existing locos. These new locomotives were used across the entire network and as they were not ďownedĒ by any of the constituent companies they became Standard Classes.
WR does stand for Western Region (formerly GWR) as , of course, SR stands for Southern.
WD is War Department. Indeed BR inherited some 750 locomotives (largely 2-8-0 and 2-10-0 types) from the WD after World War 2.
Westbury isnít a terminus but, especially in steam days, many trains changed locomotive at Westbury. Steam locos generally run smokebox first and so need to be able to be turned in order to work back to where they came from. Therefore, most steam loco depots (and the one at Westbury was quite large and busy) were equipped with a turntable on which the loco would be placed to be turned. The turntable at Westbury was at the back of the loco depot.
In steam days, SR trains did indeed run into Westbury. The principle route was to Salisbury and on to Portsmouth or Southampton. Trains ran to eg Portsmouth from Bristol or South Wales. Many such trains changed from an SR loco to a WR loco at Salisbury but there was a daily service which saw SR locos and crews running right on to Bristol for crew route knowledge purposes.
As far as I know LNER and LMS locos were rare at Westbury prior to Nationalisation although, of course, actual trains would run from region to region. Generally a train booked to run from one region to another would change engines close to regional boundaries but occasionally, in the case of an engine failure for example, foreign locos would run from one region to another.
I hope Iíve answered adequately and please do ask again for more information.
Others may offer more detail or elaborate which would be helpful and Iíll let someone else answer re the Southwest Trains unit at Trowbridge.

Cheers
Martin

Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on June 24, 2018, 07:35:32 PM
My thanks to Mike and Martin for their answers to my questions.

Martin, I've watched a video shot within the last two decades (can't remember the exact time) that was done from Westbury Platform 3. It showed clearly a loco in the shed at the top of the north sidings. That track (looking at satellite images) seems to have been removed. If the turntable was sited beyond the engine shed it may have been on land now occupied by NetworkRail Regional Track Materials Recyling Center. Do you know when it was removed? My layout is intended to focus on 1938-1942. Should I have a turntable?

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: port perran on June 24, 2018, 07:46:02 PM
My thanks to Mike and Martin for their answers to my questions.

Martin, I've watched a video shot within the last two decades (can't remember the exact time) that was done from Westbury Platform 3. It showed clearly a loco in the shed at the top of the north sidings. That track (looking at satellite images) seems to have been removed. If the turntable was sited beyond the engine shed it may have been on land now occupied by NetworkRail Regional Track Materials Recyling Center. Do you know when it was removed? My layout is intended to focus on 1938-1942. Should I have a turntable?

Leon
Hi
That depot that you are referring to is the diesel stabling point (installed in 1962 I think).the steam shed was on the other side of the main line at the South end of the station. It was a much bigger concern than the diesel stabling point.
The steam shed was accessed by a connection to the main line some quarter of a mile beyond the station and was accessed by foot via a cinder track which started opposite the main station entrance.
The steam depot was demolished completely in the late 60s and no trace remains  today.
Martin
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: port perran on June 24, 2018, 08:09:21 PM
Leon
This may help as it shows where the steam loco depot used to be.
http://www.railuk.info/steam/getshed.php?item=82D (http://www.railuk.info/steam/getshed.php?item=82D)

Hope it makes some sense.
The trackwork around the area has been much simplified since the 60s but it gives an idea as to where the shed was.

Martin
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on June 24, 2018, 11:36:41 PM
The steam depot was demolished completely in the late 60s and no trace remains  today.
Martin

Martin, actually there MAY be a trace remaining. Before I wrote to you, I had a close look at Google Earth and in the area you referred to there is a faint circle. So, though you didn't say so, I really need to add a turntable if I want to be more prototypical? The diesel "stabling point" was single track. From what you've said, the steam shed must have been multi track. Would the turntable have been multi track? I'd sure like to have a better understanding of the engine turning at Westbury. To justify the cost of a turntable, there must have been a significant number of locomotives turned at Westbury. If that was the case, my plan to include an autocoach between Dilton Marsh and Trowbridge (on my layout) might need to be re-visited. I'm wondering if Southern ran a frequent service between Southampton and Bristol (Gloucester), handing over to a GWR locomotive at Westbury and turning their own? Where might I find timetables for Westbury for that period? BTW, in the context of protocol, what do modellers mean by Rule #1?

Leon


Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on June 25, 2018, 03:12:10 AM
Old postcards may be the best way to insure period accuracy.

(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/66/6724-250618030540.jpeg)

(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/66/6724-250618030504.jpeg)

(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/66/6724-250618030429.jpeg)

(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/66/6724-250618030341.jpeg)

(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/66/6724-250618030301.jpeg)

(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/66/6724-250618030110.jpeg)

(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/66/6724-250618030001.jpeg)

I've learned a couple of things from these postcards, already: the fact that Westbury had heavy industry and the location of the signal box. There is likely to be more hidden detail that will come in handy, later.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Dorsetmike on June 25, 2018, 10:22:51 AM
Rule 1 says "Its your railway, run whatever pleases you" so if you want to run Flying Scotsman through your Westbury - do so
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on June 25, 2018, 04:11:03 PM
Thanks, Mike! I can live by Rule #1, but I'll always try to represent the reality of the period I'm modeling. There is a place for totally imaginative layouts, however, with the flexiblity for running anything consistent with the environment created. I will run my Caledonian locomotive on my GWR layout. I'm not sure if there was a football team in Southwest England who would have played a Scottish team, but that will be my excuse for invoking Rule #1.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: kelstonlad on June 25, 2018, 04:30:49 PM
Football (soccer) just doesn't seem to work in the south west of England. Now, if you had a bunch of chaps from a Scottish rugby team, a tour to the South West would be perfect. (You'd need to litter the platforms with a lot of empty cans, and other unpleasant items).
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: port perran on June 25, 2018, 04:46:06 PM
Hi Leon.
To clarify. In your chosen period locos generally didnít run from one region to another although trains did.
Hence, for example, a train running eg Bristol to Portsmouth would run with a WR loco from Bristol to Salisbury and an SR loco Salisbury to Portsmouth. Although occasionally an SR loco would run right through for route familiarisation purposes.
Note. WR trains ran with a WR loco to Weymouth.
The reason for turntables at all medium and large loco depots was to turn the engine.
Imagine a passenger train running Paddington to Weymouth. There would normally be an engine change at Westbury. Steam engines need servicing (inc adding water and coal) regularly. So engine 1 would come off the train to be replaced with engine 2.
Later in the day engine 2 (now turned and setviced at Weymouth) would work the train back to West ury where engine 1 (now serviced and turned) would take the train on to Paddington.
As for Westbury depot. In terms of size it would be classed as medium. It had an allocation of 88 engines in 1948. Westbury was a VERY busy rail centre.
The shed had four tracks under cover (housing some 12 tender locos adequately) with considerable outside storage sidings. There was a small workshop (for medium repairs) and a coaling track.
An additional track led to the turntable where engines were turned.
Acceess to the shed itself was by means of a headshunt off the main Salisbury line and was under the control of Westbury South signal box.
Hope this all helps.
I can only emphasise again how busy I remember the area being in my youth in the early 60s.  A couple of hours spotting including a visit to the loco shed could very easily yield 100 locos seen.
Martin
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: ten0G on June 25, 2018, 10:17:07 PM
Can you explain "banking duties"

Leon,

These late 1950's episodes of Railway Roundabout may give you some idea of what was involved in banking duties, mostly self-explanatory I hope.  Some wonderful shots of GWR locos working on an ex-LMS main line. 





Apologies for the delay but it's taken some time to find these, I thought I had them in my history.  I hope I have the links right. 

There are a number of episodes dealing with Western Region, but so far I've not found any which feature Westbury. 
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on June 26, 2018, 12:01:11 AM
A couple of hours spotting including a visit to the loco shed could very easily yield 100 locos seen.
Martin

Thanks for that excellent explanation, Martin. In my two hours at Westbury, I probably saw a dozen locos - half of them shunting mineral wagons. By todays standard, I guess that's still pretty busy. There's no way I can capture in my layout the full scope of this junction. I have altered the plan for the location and size of the engine shed, but mostly symbolic. The striking thing, to me, is just how many changes there have been over the years to the workings at Westbury. BTW, my location of the goods station is highly speculative. I felt that the satellite map showed signes of a siding where some NetRail buildings are located, today, and it looks like it would have been a logical place for a goods station.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on June 26, 2018, 12:03:12 AM
Football (soccer) just doesn't seem to work in the south west of England. Now, if you had a bunch of chaps from a Scottish rugby team, a tour to the South West would be perfect. (You'd need to litter the platforms with a lot of empty cans, and other unpleasant items).

Rugby will work! :) Perhaps a team from the Borders.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: kelstonlad on June 26, 2018, 12:50:22 AM
BTW, my location of the goods station is highly speculative.


Did you ever discover the Old ordnance survey maps? - http://maps.nls.uk/

The 25 inch maps have enormous detail, although earlier than your period. But at least it will anchor some stuff for you. (And, of course, if you're like me, it will give you an excuse to explore stuff for hours). The later maps were smaller scale, with the 1937-61 series clearly showing the engine sheds and other buildings that aren't labelled.
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on June 26, 2018, 04:20:35 PM

Did you ever discover the Old ordnance survey maps? - [url]http://maps.nls.uk/[/url]

The 25 inch maps have enormous detail, although earlier than your period. But at least it will anchor some stuff for you. (And, of course, if you're like me, it will give you an excuse to explore stuff for hours). The later maps were smaller scale, with the 1937-61 series clearly showing the engine sheds and other buildings that aren't labelled.


kelstonlad, thanks for reminding me! I've had a look, and I am like you, I guess. I love studying maps. I've always enjoyed them, and studied geography at college.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: port perran on June 26, 2018, 04:40:59 PM
Hi Leon.
Westbury had fairly extensive goods sidings mainly located at the South end of the station between he main Salisbury line and the loco shed.
As Westbury was a VERY important junction for effectively 5 direction ie
London and northwards
Bristol and South Wales (via Trowbridge)
Salisbury and the South East
Weymouth
The Far South West (vis Taunton and Exeter).
Imagine a freight train arriving from, say, London containing wagons for eg Weymouth, Salisbury and Taunton. That train would terminate at Westbury and its wagons added to appropriate trains for their final destinations.
Hence, fairly extensive shunting and marshalling movements took place.
Westbury itself was a small town and so its own goods handling facilities were limited. There was a small goods shed and yard just to the South of the station.
Hence, the goods sidings were extensive but the goods shed was small.
Hope that makes some sense.

Martin
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on June 26, 2018, 04:50:07 PM
Martin has given me information that led to some minor changes in my layout; i.e. location of engine shed and the size of my ponds (lakes). I've also decided to change the Salisbury down line to single track through Dilton Marsh to simplify the layout (as I did the up line to Trowbridge). The result is posted below. One bit of knowledge I think I'll be unable to incorporate - the presence of a turntable near the engine shed. I don't see a way to make room for it. And, given the many changes to the junction over the years, I wonder if the turntable that Martin remembers was built AFTER nationaization. My impression is that Southern gave off to a GWR locomotive at Salisbury, so I'd expect that the turntable was there in Grouping times. Perhaps Martin can further enlighten us, though it's probably not worth any further research. Certainly not for me, for the reason cited above (no layout room).

Leon

(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/66/6724-260618164903.jpeg)
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on June 26, 2018, 04:53:59 PM
Hi Leon.
Westbury had fairly extensive goods sidings mainly located at the South end of the station between he main Salisbury line and the loco shed.
As Westbury was a VERY important junction for effectively 5 direction ie
London and northwards
Bristol and South Wales (via Trowbridge)
Salisbury and the South East
Weymouth
The Far South West (vis Taunton and Exeter).
Imagine a freight train arriving from, say, London containing wagons for eg Weymouth, Salisbury and Taunton. That train would terminate at Westbury and its wagons added to appropriate trains for their final destinations.
Hence, fairly extensive shunting and marshalling movements took place.
Westbury itself was a small town and so its own goods handling facilities were limited. There was a small goods shed and yard just to the South of the station.
Hence, the goods sidings were extensive but the goods shed was small.
Hope that makes some sense.

Martin

Martin, that IS what I've suspected, but I still think there was something east of the station - and it makes sense to me that it would have been off the goods line (dedicated, today, and probably was then) that runs between the station and platform 1. I'm going to leave it that way on my layout (citing Rule #1  :D). If you've seen my post of a few minutes ago, maybe you'll want to comment (re: turntable). Your last post suggests clearly that you feel locos were dropped and turned here. You will know from personal observation, but that was a decade and more after my period. Whatever, I don't have room for a turntable, so I'll just have to ignore those trains, I suppose.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: port perran on June 26, 2018, 05:24:01 PM
I think your new plan looks good. Itís a fair representation of Westbury in the space you have available.
I see that you have added Frogmore pond (Iíve spent more hours fishing there than I care to remember).
The turntable would certainly have been in place in your era Leon but I can see that it would be difficult to accommodate.
In the space that you have available, I think it has th be a representation of Westbury rather than an exact copy.
Looks good.
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on June 26, 2018, 05:38:50 PM
I can confirm, after consulting an online Ordnance Survey map (1937-1961 compilaton) that there WAS a siding off the goods line in the Westbury Station! It ran to an area of three buildings about a hundred yards NE of the station, and appears to continue under the road to another group of buildings (both groups of buildings are, today, property of NetworkRail). An earlier map (about 1905) shows no ponds (lakes). Therefore, mining ceased between c. 1905 and 1961 after which the quarries were flooded. Since Martin fished there at the end of that period, mining had been discontinued some years before. The engine shed was two rails. I'm still studying maps.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on June 27, 2018, 02:48:15 AM
The Ordnance Survey Map I've been using was drawn after 1942 for it includes the East Loop Junction, completed in that year. It reveals a far smaller track system and simpler operational complexity than was in use by the '50s and '60s. I think I'm finished with my research and am content my layout will properly represent Westbury Junction as it appeared circa 1938-42. This part of the project probably represents my best efforts, for I've not modelled for nearly 50 years and don't expect to achieve the quality I see in photographs of many in this forum. Still it's been fun, and I'll continue to enjoy the challenges ahead.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Innovationgame on June 27, 2018, 06:32:35 AM
You're in good  :hmmm: company Leon.  When I started my layout just over eighteen months ago, it was after a 30 year gap so my scenery is making very slow progress and I'm taking an age getting everything running as I would want.
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on June 27, 2018, 01:32:02 PM
You're in good  :hmmm: company Leon.  When I started my layout just over eighteen months ago, it was after a 30 year gap so my scenery is making very slow progress and I'm taking an age getting everything running as I would want.

Laurence, thanks for the encouragement. I think I'll feel a bit better when I have the baseboard constructed and start laying the track (the next challenge). Converting my AnyRail plan to a real layout should be fun (with a few expected frustrations).

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on June 28, 2018, 09:51:54 PM
You're in good  :hmmm: company Leon.  When I started my layout just over eighteen months ago, it was after a 30 year gap so my scenery is making very slow progress and I'm taking an age getting everything running as I would want.

Laurence, I feel like I'm out of my depth among so many of you whose skills I admire but do not share. I built a few airplanes when I was a teenager, and buit a simple 00 layout for our son in 1977. I've collected art all my life and have spent most of my retirement years selling it - but I have no practical artistic talent, despite courses taken at college. My mechanical appitude is near zero, and I've never been able to do even routine household repairs. So, why have I decided to model at my age? My only explanation is that I enjoy the design element and the associated historical research. But, if I'm going to build a layout, I'll have to model some buildings and scenery! Everything will be out of the box with the minimum amount of assembly. I've bought a few things, already - mainly Metcalfe card kits. I don't say this to apologize, for I think the purpose of the forum is to share all sorts of related interests with those who share a love for the railways. I'll enjoy whatever I'm able to create, and I'll continue to follow the threads of people like you on this forum and assimilate what I can.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on June 29, 2018, 12:47:15 AM
I think I owe the Forum an apology for starting this thread prematurely. I'm awaiting my baseboard construction, but haven't been able to keep my fingers away from the keyboard and AnyRail. The plan I said was finished keeps evolving! That's the result of better historical understanding, primarily, thanks largely to Mike whose help cannot be overstated. I've come to understand, however, that an 8' x 4' board will not accommodate what I want to communicate. I have, therefore, taken a more pragmatic view of my asperations and thinking more about inspiration than representation. I have changed the names of my stations (Wiltsbury, Biss River, and Marsh View) and titled the layout Wiltsbury Junction - Inspired by Westbury Station.

Today, I ran my first trains since 1977! I finally was able to set up track and test the locomotives I've purchased over the past three months. For the most part, I'm pleased, but there were some surprises. The first one I ran didn't want to run! I was using the Kato M1 track set purchased used (like new). Although the seller claimed it had hardly been out of the box, there were remnants of glue on some of the rails. Except for this rail set all of my track is new and I haven't yet bought track cleaner, but I was able to scrape off the offending glue and the loco ran, albeit unevenly. The next three locomotives (one of which was bought new from a shop) were also somewhat sluggish. One would not run at all, initially, but after a little coaxing it proceeding around the oval both forward and reverse and after warming up ran quite well. I attributed all of the shortcomings to the track, but then I tested the last loco and was delighted with the result. It was smooth and quiet and ran well at slow speeds as well as faster (I ran all of them up to  three quarters speed).

My inventory and the order of testing:

GWR green with roundel, 14XX 0-4-2T, 1420, Dapol ND-004

GWR Green 5700 Pannier Tank 5768, Graham Farish 1114

Caledonian 4-4-0, Graham Farish

GWR Green 64XX Pannier Tank 6407, Graham Farish 371-985

GWR Lined Green, Earl of Dunraven, Castle Class 5044, Graham Farish 372-030

My testing was very basic (no running through points), but the Earl of Dunraven deserves a 10. The others between 4 and 6. The new Pannier tank (6407) was especially noisy, and the Dopal which was advertised as "Mint boxed condition. Never been run. Will need full running in" apparently needs a lot of "running in".

More about running stock when I have a layout on which to run them! I'll be buying one more locomotive for main line freight duty and I'll pay the premium and buy a recent production model. Any suggestions?

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: kelstonlad on June 29, 2018, 08:11:38 AM
Certainly won't be the most appropriate, but have you thought about a King? I'm from GWR country, and a King class was top of my list for a model to get. Along with a Castle, a Manor and a Hall, of course :). I know it's a bit grand for freight, but they might have been used with milk trains.

http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=36310.0

Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: chrispearce on June 29, 2018, 03:17:59 PM
How about the Dapol 28xx for your mainline freight? That would be a fine-looking beast!
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on June 29, 2018, 04:55:35 PM
I like the look of the Dapol 28xx very much. Until I've run my Dapol tank a bit more, however, I'm reluctant to buy another Dapol. My experience with the the Graham Farish  Earl of Dunraven encourages me to buy that brand. I know my experience is too limited to be so judgemental, but I'm a typical consumer and base my buying practices on whatever experience I have. I WILL, most likely buy a King for a second passenger locomotive, but I really need something to move goods.

Thanks for the input, and I'll be interested to read more about the Dapol 28xx.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on June 29, 2018, 05:08:47 PM
I also like the looks of the Dapol 2S-019-001 N GAUGE GRANGE KINGSTONE GRANGE GWR GREEN SHIRTBUTTON 6820, but have no knowledge of where it worked. I'm assuming it was used for goods, but don't know that for fact. Has anyone bought this model?

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: chrispearce on June 29, 2018, 05:38:56 PM
I believe that Granges were mixed traffic. I am sure I've seen pics of them on freight trains.

I have read through your older posts today and just wondered if you could fit a turntable in the between the loco shed and the curved branch line with a kickback from the lower loco track? The Peco table is only 6 inches in diameter or, maybe, I have misjudged the size of that area. Just a thought.
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on June 29, 2018, 05:45:07 PM
I believe that Granges were mixed traffic. I am sure I've seen pics of them on freight trains.

I have read through your older posts today and just wondered if you could fit a turntable in the between the loco shed and the curved branch line with a kickback from the lower loco track? The Peco table is only 6 inches in diameter or, maybe, I have misjudged the size of that area. Just a thought.

Chris, I may be adding a coal staging building in that area of the layout. Plus, a map of my period doesn't show a turntable - and after 1942 a turntable would have been redundant (though a turntable was in use in the 1960s).

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: chrispearce on June 29, 2018, 05:57:28 PM
Aha. I see. I have some familiarity with the whole Westbury area having been born and raised in nearby Bristol so I will enjoy watching your layout grow.

Are you thinking of incorporating any Southern locos and stock?
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on June 29, 2018, 06:15:35 PM
Aha. I see. I have some familiarity with the whole Westbury area having been born and raised in nearby Bristol so I will enjoy watching your layout grow.

Are you thinking of incorporating any Southern locos and stock?

Chris, I'm reading The Southern Handbook: The Southern Railway 1923-1947 at the moment and gaining a new appreciation for that network. Hopefully, when the book is completed I'll have a better understanding of the services they ran in cooperation with GWR.

I didn't thank you in my previous message for your suggestion. So, thank you very much for the input and I hope I'll achieve something worthwile - eventually. As I've said more than once, every time I think I've finished the plan I find something else to tweek (the coaling stage is an example, arising from a '60s photo of the station shared by Martin on this forum).

My other major project is genealogy and I'm finding that railroad modeling has much in common with the former: neither project will ever be finished!

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: ten0G on June 29, 2018, 06:30:42 PM
I like the look of the Dapol 28xx very much. Until I've run my Dapol tank a bit more, however, I'm reluctant to buy another Dapol.

Leon,

I have two Dapol tanks, a pannier and a small prairie, which were bought new in 2015 from the UK and sent to Japan.  I never had any problems with running in either, although the prairie is not able to handle much of a load. 

I have avoided Dapol GW tender engines because the tenders are on the low side and could be noisy, I was not impressed with the early Manors after watching Youtube videos. 

I WILL, most likely buy a King for a second passenger locomotive

Perhaps you should consider adding your name to the DJ Models list if it is still open.  See http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=36310.0 (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=36310.0)
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Dorsetmike on June 29, 2018, 06:31:04 PM
I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the Union Mills Collett for goods

http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=38775.0 (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=38775.0)

Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: ten0G on June 29, 2018, 06:37:35 PM
I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the Union Mills Collett for goods

[url]http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=38775.0[/url] ([url]http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=38775.0[/url])


I think UM also do a Dean 0-6-0 as well. 
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: ten0G on June 29, 2018, 06:54:14 PM


I think UM also do a Dean 0-6-0 as well.

It was on their list last September, List No.103, "Dean Goods various liveries."
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: chrispearce on June 29, 2018, 08:45:49 PM
One question Leon. Your plan shows a blue branch ending in the bottom left corner. I am a bit baffled as to how this crosses the main line. Is it on a bridge? If so it seems a very short distance from the point which gives access to the loco yard. Is there enough room for an incline?  :hmmm:

Also I wonder if you see any merit in reducing the angle between the loco shed sidings and the adjacent sidings. This will enable you to make the loco sidings longer and give more storage room.
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Newportnobby on June 29, 2018, 09:12:07 PM
Here's a list of locos allocated to 82D Westbury shed...........

http://www.brdatabase.info/sites.php?page=depots&subpage=locos&id=593 (http://www.brdatabase.info/sites.php?page=depots&subpage=locos&id=593)

You can see panniers and all sorts. Halls and Granges were typical mixed traffic locos for the GWR and the 28xx was used mainly on heavy freight. Shame no one makes the 43xx Mogul. There was talk of DJ Models doing one but I think that could be light years away.
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Dorsetmike on June 29, 2018, 10:06:57 PM
PD Marsh do a 43xx kit to fit Farish praire chassis

http://www.pdmarshmodels.com/show_product.php?pid=2 (http://www.pdmarshmodels.com/show_product.php?pid=2)

Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on June 30, 2018, 01:00:32 AM
I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the Union Mills Collett for goods

[url]http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=38775.0[/url] ([url]http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=38775.0[/url])


Mike, I like it, but can't find one for sale. Maybe I'm just too tired, but I'm really frustrated with the dealers' search engines. *sigh*

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on June 30, 2018, 01:20:48 AM
One question Leon. Your plan shows a blue branch ending in the bottom left corner. I am a bit baffled as to how this crosses the main line. Is it on a bridge? If so it seems a very short distance from the point which gives access to the loco yard. Is there enough room for an incline?  :hmmm:

Also I wonder if you see any merit in reducing the angle between the loco shed sidings and the adjacent sidings. This will enable you to make the loco sidings longer and give more storage room.

Chris, thanks for the suggestions. I'll take a look (but have spent the last two hours re-working the shed and goods sidings). As a result of research and the help of people like you, I've rearranged a few things. I don't think the Salisbury line can be altered significantly, however. I've had lots of comments about it, but I don't see a problem. Westbury Station tracks are eight or ten feet above the station (and the main, "avoiding line", and I'll be modeling it that way. The Salisbury line will cross above the "avoiding line" which will have dropped slightly after the rail bridge crossing the main road on the lower right side. The elevation there isn't what it seems, as the road dips under the bridge. It's all about getting the elevation contours right. With the best part of 24 linear feet main line running, there's loads of space to adjust the elevations.

For you, and to remind others, my idea from the outset was to run an autocoach on the Salisbury up line through Westbury to Trowbridge. I've no idea if that service ever operated through Westbury, but I've bought the locomotive and autocoach (appropriate for the period I'm modeling), so I guess if it didn't run I'll inaugurate a new service!   :D

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on June 30, 2018, 01:43:01 AM
Here's a list of locos allocated to 82D Westbury shed...........

[url]http://www.brdatabase.info/sites.php?page=depots&subpage=locos&id=593[/url] ([url]http://www.brdatabase.info/sites.php?page=depots&subpage=locos&id=593[/url])

You can see panniers and all sorts. Halls and Granges were typical mixed traffic locos for the GWR and the 28xx was used mainly on heavy freight. Shame no one makes the 43xx Mogul. There was talk of DJ Models doing one but I think that could be light years away.


Thanks Mick! If I'm reading the table correctly, prior to 1946 there were few locos allocated to Westbury, which isn't surprising to me. The Ordnance Survey map I've been studying, and referrring to here (drawn after 1942) shows relatively small sidings compared to the late 50s and 60s. There were ten 43xx Mogul 2-6-0 locomotives allocated on 1-1-1934, four of which had been sent to another shed by 1940. Presumably, there were locos allocated to Westbury before 1930. There must have been some shunting engines. If not, mine are going to look a bit goofy on the layout. :)

Thanks for remembering me!

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on June 30, 2018, 01:47:31 AM


I think UM also do a Dean 0-6-0 as well.

It was on their list last September, List No.103, "Dean Goods various liveries."

Where do I find Union Mills?

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on June 30, 2018, 01:49:05 AM
PD Marsh do a 43xx kit to fit Farish praire chassis

[url]http://www.pdmarshmodels.com/show_product.php?pid=2[/url] ([url]http://www.pdmarshmodels.com/show_product.php?pid=2[/url])


Thanks, Mike, but I'm not up to building a loco from a kit. I'm trying to keep things simple!   :D

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: chrispearce on June 30, 2018, 07:24:10 AM


I think UM also do a Dean 0-6-0 as well.


It was on their list last September, List No.103, "Dean Goods various liveries."


Where do I find Union Mills?

Leon


Union Mills locos can be found at shops like Hattons.

www.hattons.co.uk (http://www.hattons.co.uk)
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: keithbythe sea on June 30, 2018, 07:44:43 AM
Hi Leon, you have previously mentioned that you do not feel comfortable building complex kits. Consider using kits from Tomytec or Kato, they are well made and donít require much assembly. Iíve just bought a couple of boats from Tomytec which were good quality and had only a few parts.
Whatever you choose to do, enjoy!
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: tunneroner61 on June 30, 2018, 07:47:02 AM
Union Mills are a one man band manufacturer on the Isle of Man. Locos are made in small batches and not everything is available all the time. The only place to get a new Union Mills loco is direct from the manufacturer. Hattons, ebay etc will only be selling second hand models. I have noticed that sometimes second hand prices are more than buying a new model direct so be careful.

GWR locos available are (were) Dean Goods, Dukedog and Collet 2251.

Contact details:

Union Mills Models Ltd
Unit 5
Union Mills Trading
Isle of Man
IM4 4AB
Tel: 01624 852896
There isn't a website

The proprietor Colin Heard is a true gentleman - give him a ring to order a loco
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: chrispearce on June 30, 2018, 10:37:24 AM
Aha! tunneroner61 is right. Sorry I didn't know Hattons sold 2nd hand UM. I thought they acted as a distributor. Take the man's sage advice Leon and go direct to UM. UM's locos are robust albeit not superdetailed. However, I have a couple of examples and they were grand. If you ever get bitten by the desire to embellish them they are a perfect starting point.
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: ten0G on June 30, 2018, 03:48:30 PM
GWR locos available are (were) Dean Goods, Dukedog and Collet 2251.

Leon,

I have no experience of them, but will be hoping to order a Dukedog and pair of Colletts once I have started a layout. 

These are all tender-driven models but unlike Dapol locos, there is no drive-shaft between the tender and loco (through the firebox).  Quite apart from the safety hazards this must present to the footplate crew(!), I understand it can be quite hard to re-engage the drive-shaft with the loco if it becomes detached.   

If you ever get bitten by the desire to embellish them they are a perfect starting point.

Alternatively, I believe there is at least one Forum member who will super-detail them for you.  I haven't had time to investigate yet, but I may wish to have mine brought up to the current BachFar/Dapol standards we are now seeing. 



(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/67/3123-280618155723.jpeg) (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=67055)


(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/67/3123-280618155807.jpeg) (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=67056)
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on June 30, 2018, 04:04:04 PM
Union Mills are a one man band manufacturer on the Isle of Man. Locos are made in small batches and not everything is available all the time. The only place to get a new Union Mills loco is direct from the manufacturer. Hattons, ebay etc will only be selling second hand models. I have noticed that sometimes second hand prices are more than buying a new model direct so be careful.

GWR locos available are (were) Dean Goods, Dukedog and Collet 2251.

Contact details:

Union Mills Models Ltd
Unit 5
Union Mills Trading
Isle of Man
IM4 4AB
Tel: 01624 852896
There isn't a website

The proprietor Colin Heard is a true gentleman - give him a ring to order a loco

Thanks for this good information. Colin Heard has been mentioned before, but I'm suffering from information overload, having just re-ignited my interest in railroading three months ago. Much to learn, and not much time to do it.  :) I'll give Colin a ring one day soon, but please answer one question. Are the Union Mills products equal to Dapol and Graham Farish in quality of design and production?

Leon

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on June 30, 2018, 04:09:20 PM
GWR locos available are (were) Dean Goods, Dukedog and Collet 2251.

Leon,

I have no experience of them, but will be hoping to order a Dukedog and pair of Colletts once I have started a layout. 

These are all tender-driven models but unlike Dapol locos, there is no drive-shaft between the tender and loco (through the firebox).  Quite apart from the safety hazards this must present to the footplate crew(!), I understand it can be quite hard to re-engage the drive-shaft with the loco if it becomes detached.   

If you ever get bitten by the desire to embellish them they are a perfect starting point.

Alternatively, I believe there is at least one Forum member who will super-detail them for you.  I haven't had time to investigate yet, but I may wish to have mine brought up to the current BachFar/Dapol standards we are now seeing. 



([url]http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/67/3123-280618155723.jpeg[/url]) ([url]http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=67055[/url])


([url]http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/67/3123-280618155807.jpeg[/url]) ([url]http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=67056[/url])


I don't have a need for super detail, just quality general design and production. The model in the image you provided looks great to me.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Dorsetmike on June 30, 2018, 04:35:30 PM
I have 6 Union Mills locos all great runners, the only detailing on most of them is to fit vacuum brake pipes front and rear they are fairly obvious visible items, readily available from some of the small dealers and kit makers. Things like brake rods and similar fine detail - read fragile- I can do without.

The only one I've done anything "drastic" with is the SR T9 clas 4-4-0 in my sig below, the UM T9 is one of the later wide cab versions with 6 wheel tender which rarely ran in my area, so I milled a few thou off the cab and splashers, and replaced the tender with an 8 wheel "watercart" from a Langley S15 kit with a Fleischmann tender drive.

I've also used UM tender drives for a couple of scratch built locos and some kits.

Scatch built Adams A12 class 0-4-2
(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/albums/Dorsetmike's_pix/Dir_2/main_6600.jpg)

Scratch built Drummond K10 4-4-0
(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/albums/Dorsetmike's_pix/Dir_2/main_6597.jpg)

UM drive fitted in a BHE N15 kit tender with an extra pair of wheels
(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/albums/Dorsetmike's_pix/Dir_2/main_6633.jpg)
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: tunneroner61 on June 30, 2018, 05:09:20 PM
Union Mills locos are simply engineered compared to Dapol & Farish. They are very reliable, good strong pullers and nearly indestructible. You don't get the detail on them that you now expect from Dapol & Farish. They are also much more reasonably priced - £75ish. Union Mills after sales service is top class. As in everything it's a matter of choice and what your priorities are.
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: ten0G on July 01, 2018, 03:37:10 PM
Alternatively, I believe there is at least one Forum member who will super-detail them for you.  I haven't had time to investigate yet, but I may wish to have mine brought up to the current BachFar/Dapol standards we are now seeing.


Sorry Leon,

I didn't do the edit correctly, those were shots of a Dukedog that has been detailed by a Forum member. 

In her original condition she looks like this:

http://www.herbavache.free.fr/current/DSC_0277.JPG (http://www.herbavache.free.fr/current/DSC_0277.JPG)

http://www.herbavache.free.fr/latest/IMG_6054.JPG (http://www.herbavache.free.fr/latest/IMG_6054.JPG)

Apologies for the confusion. 
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 02, 2018, 11:18:25 PM
(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/67/6724-020718230452.jpeg)

Welcome to Wiltsbury Junction! No, this won't be the final layout, but it DOES incorporate a good few changes/improvements resulting for the good input I've had on this Forum. I'm as close to historical accuracy as I can get, however. The station names have been changed to protect the innocent (me!). They are not depicted as accurate reditions of the original, but for what I believe is a reasonable representation within the space limitations. Thirty-two sq ft is a lot to cover, however, and even if I was inclined to extend the board the extra cost and time for construction would exceed my budget. I've rearranged my office/library to accommodate the layout (waiting for my carpenter to build the baseboard), and I'll post a photograph of the space later in the week - with the two knee-hole desks that will support the layout. I'm just marking time, now. Can't start building models for I've no place to put them!

I almost forgot! The 1 mm lines in the layout are approximate elevation contours. AnyRail doesn't provide for drawing free lines (so far as I know), but the contours will be rounded when I start the modeling.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 05, 2018, 12:27:47 AM
I bought the MAINLINE 37-058 OO GAUGE GWR 2251 CLASS COLLETT 0-6-0 before I decided to model N Gauge. Does anyone know if it's been done in N?

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 05, 2018, 12:48:47 AM
It looks now that I will need to settle for Dapol 2S-019-001 Class 68xx 4-6-0 6820 "Kingstone Grange" in GWR green with shirtbutton emblem for my mainline goods service. I'm not the most patient guy in the world, and this is the only thing I can see for sale at the moment in GWR livery for the grouping period.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 05, 2018, 01:03:49 AM
I just read about a 'fitted head'. Will someone please explain?

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: ten0G on July 05, 2018, 09:19:34 AM
I just read about a 'fitted head'. Will someone please explain?

Leon


Hi Leon,

See: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/115719-gwr-fitted-head-what-is-it/ (http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/115719-gwr-fitted-head-what-is-it/)

Fitted wagons had screw-link couplings to keep the buffers together. 

Unfitted wagons had loose three-link couplings so care had to be taken when the train slowed down and stopped, the brake van would be deployed as the guard applied his brakes. 
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: ten0G on July 05, 2018, 09:24:26 AM
I bought the MAINLINE 37-058 OO GAUGE GWR 2251 CLASS COLLETT 0-6-0 before I decided to model N Gauge. Does anyone know if it's been done in N?

Leon

Apart from the Union Mills model, there was one by Peco which occasionally appears on eBay. 
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 08, 2018, 11:49:55 PM
There's not likely to be much interest until I start laying track, but I did promise an image of the layout site. The image below shows the two desks that will provide a base for the layout frame (my carpenter has agreed to complete it "sooner than later"). I've decided to top the frame with a 2" x 4' x 8' sheet of Dow Corning Extruded Foam. After a lot of research, I decided that a sheet of plywood would not be necessary, as others have reported the successful use of this board for layouts. I hope to have the first phase of track laying completed by the end of the summer and the topography finished over the winter. Hopefully, some of the buildings will be completed, also. The second stage of track laying (the north/south line from Biss River Station to Marsh View Halt) will probably be delayed until Spring. Finally, the sidings, associated buildings, and scenic landscaping will be undertaken during the second year of the project. My wiring will be left to the end, but should be relatively simple - just a tad expensive (all Kato except for one controller).

Leon

(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/67/6724-080718234835.jpeg)

Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Dorsetmike on July 09, 2018, 05:17:59 PM
If that is to be your "Railway room" you need a Terence Cuneo print in that big frame! :whistle:    :-[

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=terence+cuneo+railway+prints&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwik14L6s5LcAhXOa8AKHea5CmsQsAR6BAgGEAE&biw=1401&bih=613#imgrc=dDmhqv3HTX1kKM: (https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=terence+cuneo+railway+prints&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwik14L6s5LcAhXOa8AKHea5CmsQsAR6BAgGEAE&biw=1401&bih=613#imgrc=dDmhqv3HTX1kKM:)
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 09, 2018, 09:21:18 PM
If that is to be your "Railway room" you need a Terence Cuneo print in that big frame! :whistle:    :-[

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=terence+cuneo+railway+prints&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwik14L6s5LcAhXOa8AKHea5CmsQsAR6BAgGEAE&biw=1401&bih=613#imgrc=dDmhqv3HTX1kKM: (https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=terence+cuneo+railway+prints&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwik14L6s5LcAhXOa8AKHea5CmsQsAR6BAgGEAE&biw=1401&bih=613#imgrc=dDmhqv3HTX1kKM:)

You're right, Mike, but I don't buy prints and can't afford an original Cuneo! *sigh* There's nothing wrong with a quality print, btw. I have bought them in the past, but  it's hard enough to get some of the investment back from the originals. Mind you, I'm out of touch. Cuneo may command the kinds of prices as a Russell Flint. I sold one of Flint's  signed prints for enough to cover the cost of delivering it to the buyer in Toronto, plus dinner and a night in a nice hotel.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 09, 2018, 09:50:03 PM
Some people may be interested in the extruded polystyrene. I'm adding an image below and will be happy to provide others upon request. They don't show a lot, but I had little idea what to expect before I picked up the board this afternoon. I was able to carry it with one hand! And, it's 8' x 4' x 2". Much lighter than I expected, but it seems very solid and strong. I'll give the top a couple coats of brown latex paint (emulsion) and the 2" thick perimeter a couple coats of green.

The wood shop sent me an estimate, today, for the frame - $450.  That's a bit more than I anticipated, but I'll probably accept the price if it's firm and will be completed promptly. The quote is for a poplar frame 1" x 4" with good vertical and horizontal bracing. I had asked for 1" x 3", but I guess the carpenter thinks the extra inch is justified, and I can't question his judgement.

Leon

(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/67/6724-090718214739.jpeg)
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Newportnobby on July 09, 2018, 09:56:20 PM
Leon - if possible lay out your track plan on the board before getting any framing done.
That way, you will know where the points fall and you can mark where you want the cross framing to be, allowing for underboard point motors. The alternative is the carpenter puts the bracing where he thinks best and then you have to juggle the track plan to ensure there is no bracing where you want a point motor to go. I know which I prefer.
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 10, 2018, 12:24:02 AM
Leon - if possible lay out your track plan on the board before getting any framing done.
That way, you will know where the points fall and you can mark where you want the cross framing to be, allowing for underboard point motors. The alternative is the carpenter puts the bracing where he thinks best and then you have to juggle the track plan to ensure there is no bracing where you want a point motor to go. I know which I prefer.

Mick, thanks very much for the suggestion. I have a pretty good idea where I'll be drilling from the AnyRail plan which is on a one foot grid, and there doesn't appear to be a problem with the present configuration. I've instructed the carpenter to place a brace every two feet. Things DO change, though!  Remember, there won't be any underboard point motors (all Kato points). Another benefit of the insulation board is that if I have to, I can cut a shallow trench for running the wire. When the frame is delivered, I'll draw an outline on the foamboard before turning it over and gluing it to the frame.  If you see a fallicy in any of this please DO let me know.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 10, 2018, 06:20:33 PM
I believe that Granges were mixed traffic. I am sure I've seen pics of them on freight trains.

I have read through your older posts today and just wondered if you could fit a turntable in the between the loco shed and the curved branch line with a kickback from the lower loco track? The Peco table is only 6 inches in diameter or, maybe, I have misjudged the size of that area. Just a thought.

Chris, I've finally found time to re-adjust the left bottom corner of my layout for the Peco turntable. It can work, but the plan change reverts to the tight curve which was the subject of several comments here when I first posted my layout plan. I'm staying with the layout WITHOUT the turntable in the meantime, but will take a look at it in the second phase of my track-laying. I'll not do the sidings and associated buildings until the third stage of construction (see previous post), so there's time to add the turntable - but not that much time before I have to make a decision about the curve. The turntable isn't possible, on my layout, without the tight curve. The fact is the curve doesn't really matter, except for visual aesthetics for I'll only be running a tank and autocoach around the curve. Even that isn't necessary as I can limit the autocoach service to Biss River or send it along the east/west line. Marsh View Halt and Biss River Station are an integral part of the layout for fidelity to Westbury, but it's impossible to show the importance of that line with my limited space.

Thanks again for your suggestion. I still question WHEN the turntable at Westwood was constructed (maybe it wasn't there before nationalization). Southern District locos DID turn there, but I still have to be convinced that Southern Railways locos turned there (it seems more logical, to me, they would have turned at Salisbury). There can be no doubt that Westbury became much more important after nationaization. I've just read the Southern Railways Handbook and I'm still clueless about which company owned the Westbury to Salisbury track. If it WAS owned by Southern, then my logic is erroneous. Can anyone provide a definitive answer about ownership of the track?

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: tunneroner61 on July 10, 2018, 06:57:59 PM
The Westbury to Salisbury line was GWR. That railway had it's own terminus station in Salisbury, closed in 1932.

See:

Railmap online http://www.railmaponline.com/UKIEMap.php (http://www.railmaponline.com/UKIEMap.php)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salisbury_railway_station (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salisbury_railway_station)

The GWR Grange class were very much a mixed traffic loco as were the Halls and Manors. See:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Locomotives_of_the_Great_Western_Railway (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Locomotives_of_the_Great_Western_Railway)

http://www.greatwestern.org.uk/index-st.htm (http://www.greatwestern.org.uk/index-st.htm)


Some background reading for you Leon

cheers Norman
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: tunneroner61 on July 10, 2018, 07:12:08 PM
According to Wikipedia the present station was built in 1899. I have found a web page that implies the shed with turntable was opened soon after.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westbury_railway_station (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westbury_railway_station)

https://www.wiltshire-opc.org.uk/Items/Westbury/Westbury%20-%20New%20Engine%20Sheds.pdf (https://www.wiltshire-opc.org.uk/Items/Westbury/Westbury%20-%20New%20Engine%20Sheds.pdf)

Norman
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 10, 2018, 10:21:19 PM
According to Wikipedia the present station was built in 1899. I have found a web page that implies the shed with turntable was opened soon after.

[url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westbury_railway_station[/url] ([url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westbury_railway_station[/url])

[url]https://www.wiltshire-opc.org.uk/Items/Westbury/Westbury%20-%20New%20Engine%20Sheds.pdf[/url] ([url]https://www.wiltshire-opc.org.uk/Items/Westbury/Westbury%20-%20New%20Engine%20Sheds.pdf[/url])

Norman


Norman,

Thanks for your input and the links you shared. I've followed them all. The picture that accompanied the article referred to in the Wiltshire Times was shot after regionalization. There is no doubt there was a turntable at that time, and I have a book that includes the engine shed picture and one of the turntable (and others, photographed in the 60s, I believe). Your other internet references show conclusively that GWR operated the line to Salisbury from broad gauge days - stengthening my arguement that during GWR days there was probably no need for a turntable at Westbury.

if you're interested, take a look at the OS Map at http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/print/#zoom=16.837666858961263&lat=51.2625&lon=-2.2009&layers=10&b=1. (http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/print/#zoom=16.837666858961263&lat=51.2625&lon=-2.2009&layers=10&b=1.) That map was drawn after 1942, but most likely before regionalization. It shows are far more modest station, though there is a fairly large engine shed (but with only two tracks leading in) and what was probably the coal staging building. No sign of a turntable.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: tunneroner61 on July 10, 2018, 11:04:43 PM
While I agree the picture in the link is post nationalisation, if you read the text carefully it says that the engine shed was completed shortly after the station rebuild (in 1899) and included a 65' turntable.

Your link to the NLS map site doesn't work for me.

On the NLS web site there is a map from 1924 that clearly shows the new station and a turntable: https://maps.nls.uk/view/106029997

Norman
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 11, 2018, 01:16:54 AM
While I agree the picture in the link is post nationalisation, if you read the text carefully it says that the engine shed was completed shortly after the station rebuild (in 1899) and included a 65' turntable.

Your link to the NLS map site doesn't work for me.

On the NLS web site there is a map from 1924 that clearly shows the new station and a turntable: https://maps.nls.uk/view/106029997

Norman

Norman, congratulations! I'm really indebted to you for providing me with this additional information. Westbury had a roundtable in 1922!!! And, the workings of the station were far more extensive than they were at some point after 1942, and before regionalization. Also, Westbury Iron Works was still operating and is featured prominantly in the map. No doubt a lot of the track in 1922 was associated with the Iron Works. Interestingly, there was a tramway on the iron Works side. It's not clear to me the purpose of the tramway (passenger or industrial?). The station was/is some distance from the town.

You must have spent some significant time with your research! I promise to commit a bit more of my time to try and discover what the station/junction was like c. 1938. The Iron Works closed in 1933. It's academic, but as an American states in their advertising, "Inquiring minds want to know!"

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 11, 2018, 02:06:46 AM
Norman, I've done a bit more research of the OS maps without success. There are too many missing sheets. The map I've been using is Zoomable graphic indexes showing records for large-scale Ordnance Survey mapping of Great Britain (1841-1991). This is a composite map, obviously including sheets that aren't available in the section Ordnance Survey, 1:25,000 maps of Great Britain - 1937-1961 - 2,027 sheets. It clearly shows the Engine Shed (only two tracks) and the Coaling Stage, but no tracks where the 1922 map shows the turntable. The composite map was drawn after 1942 and the Army Supply Depot was still there. I'll try to find time to see if I can find information about the Army site that would include the date it was closed. That would narrow the time period when the map in the composite (zoomable edition) was drawn.

My conclusion hasn't changed, except to acknowledge that GWR did have a turntable in 1922, and the works at Westbury were extensive - contrasted with the situation after 1942 (and probably before nationalization), at which time the Iron Works were gone.

Very interesting - but not to many people! So, I think I'll let it rest. :) Thank you SO much for your interest. And, I'll be interested if you should find more information.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Innovationgame on July 11, 2018, 06:25:31 AM
I think you need to ask yourself, Leon, how accurate does the model need to be?  In my opinion, the main thing is to create the aura of Westbury in that period and if you have to guess a few things, that might enhance rather than detract from the model.
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: tunneroner61 on July 11, 2018, 09:16:15 AM
Leon, The track plan and size of the station probably didn't change much until the resignalling in the early 1980s. It's likely that during WW2 the siding facilities were enlarged to cater for the war time traffic. Here's another site to look at with before and after pictures of the 1980 resignalling. (Scroll down to the bottom)

http://www.cornwallrailwaysociety.org.uk/taunton-to-westbury.html# (http://www.cornwallrailwaysociety.org.uk/taunton-to-westbury.html#)

Westbury engine shed closed in 1963.

I agree with Laurence -  create an impression of Westbury and given the space ypou have accept a few compromises.
Norman
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 11, 2018, 05:47:12 PM
Leon, The track plan and size of the station probably didn't change much until the resignalling in the early 1980s. It's likely that during WW2 the siding facilities were enlarged to cater for the war time traffic. Here's another site to look at with before and after pictures of the 1980 resignalling. (Scroll down to the bottom)

[url]http://www.cornwallrailwaysociety.org.uk/taunton-to-westbury.html#[/url] ([url]http://www.cornwallrailwaysociety.org.uk/taunton-to-westbury.html#[/url])

Westbury engine shed closed in 1963.

I agree with Laurence -  create an impression of Westbury and given the space ypou have accept a few compromises.
Norman


Thanks to Laurence and Norman for their encouragement, and to Norman for providing that excellent link (above).

I spent more than thirty mintues crafting (?) a reply only to delete it while checking on a link to the OS map I've referred to several times in previous posts. That map is my basis for modeling my layout, as I know it was drawn after 1942. The Westbury Iron Works are gone and the extensive track that existed previously and subsequently at  Westbury is absent. So was the turntable which was there in 1922. A link to that map is added, and I've tested it by clearing my history, so it should work.

http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/print/#zoom=16.837666858961263&lat=51.2639&lon=-2.1991&layers=10&b=1 (http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/print/#zoom=16.837666858961263&lat=51.2639&lon=-2.1991&layers=10&b=1)

I rest my case that the Wiltsbury Junction layout will faithfully represent the station/junction as it existed in 1938 until nationalization. I'd love to have a turntable, as I have a Southern locomotive which would look great on the layout, but without proof it would be a misrepresentation. One thing I've learned in these few short months - change was a way of life with the railroads, and removing a turntable and replacing it a few years later would have been a minor alteration in their operation.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: port perran on July 11, 2018, 06:08:19 PM
Hi Leon.
I cannot provide proof but that turntable was there from about 1903 till closure in 1963.
The depot simply couldnít operate without it.
So many trains would either terminate or change engines at Westbury. All of those had to be turned to work back to where they came from.

Looking forward to seeing your layout develop.

Martin
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: tunneroner61 on July 11, 2018, 11:30:10 PM
Leon, this time the link you have provided works for me. The map revealed is, in my opinion, not of large enough scale to accurately define the track layout. I can't find the scale of it, but it looks like one of our 'general' OS maps as used for road and footpath navigation. The railway parts of it are what I would call 'indicative'. For instance all the lines into Westbury in 1942 were double track but the map only shows a 'single' line, though I expect that the key would state that the black/white hatched railway lines were double tracked. There are larger scale maps on the NLS web site that show the multiplicity of tracks through the station and the engine shed layout with a turntable. (See my earlier post for https://maps.nls.uk/view/10602999 (https://maps.nls.uk/view/10602999)).

I have, from my 1960s trainspotting days, a book of shed diagrams for the Western Region and there definitely was a turntable until the shed closed in 1963. It is unlikely to have been removed and replaced.

The Signalling Record Society have signal box diagrams for Westbury from which you can see the track layouts in the 1920s to the 1950s and they are far more complicated than you are asserting. see:

https://www.s-r-s.org.uk/html/gwb/S394.htm (https://www.s-r-s.org.uk/html/gwb/S394.htm)
https://www.s-r-s.org.uk/html/gwb/S395.htm (https://www.s-r-s.org.uk/html/gwb/S395.htm)
https://www.s-r-s.org.uk/html/gwb/S396.htm (https://www.s-r-s.org.uk/html/gwb/S396.htm)

I am not suggesting that you revise your layout plan by any means but trying to show you that by looking at the 'wrong' map you are being mislead about the ongoing size of the facilities and the station at Westbury.

Norman
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: tunneroner61 on July 11, 2018, 11:34:43 PM
Here's a map from 1941 showing the station, shed and turntable.

https://maps.nls.uk/view/101463356
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 12, 2018, 01:09:40 AM
Here's a map from 1941 showing the station, shed and turntable.

https://maps.nls.uk/view/101463356

Norman, this 1941 map revision is the proof I've been looking for!  Also, I have great respect for Martin's fund of knowledge about Westbury. My layout WILL include a turntable!

After 1941, the East Loop Junction was built, the Westbury Iron Works removed, and an Army Supply Depot was built in the vicinity of the Westbury Station. Lots of changes! My map has a lot of detail, so I hope you can understand why I'm a little incredulous that a cartographer would not have shown the turntable.

Thanks, once more, for devoting so much time to confirm the presence of the turntable within my modeling period. I can't be completely prototypical, but I can be historically correct. So, the alternate layout plan (which I've already done) will be the basis of further revision. I may need to eliminate Marsh View and have the rail line depart the board on the lower left side rather than the lower left bottom of the layout. It's much easier for me and the addition of a turntable will allow me to park my Southern locomotive. As of now, my plan will be modelled on the 1941 revised OS map. All's well that end's well! :) End of story - I hope.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: chrispearce on July 12, 2018, 05:46:19 AM
Good news about the turntable Leon. Just makes me wonder how much easier it is to belong to a forum like this when planning a project. There are so many people who seem willing to dig around and help with research etc.

Out of interest, anyone, when did the chord to the north of Westbury which made a triangle (from the northward line to the westward line) get installed?
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 12, 2018, 03:56:47 PM
Good news about the turntable Leon. Just makes me wonder how much easier it is to belong to a forum like this when planning a project. There are so many people who seem willing to dig around and help with research etc.

Out of interest, anyone, when did the chord to the north of Westbury which made a triangle (from the northward line to the westward line) get installed?

Chris,

The "chord" was constructed in 1942. Documented in numerous places including - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westbury_railway_station#/media/File:Westbury_routes.png

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: chrispearce on July 12, 2018, 04:44:36 PM
Thanks Leon. I looked on Wikipedia and there is a small schematic map of the area. I have to say you have turned it into a continuous-run layout very ingeniously!  :claphappy:

I, like others, look forward to seeing this appear in 3D!
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 12, 2018, 06:53:05 PM
I've just completed the umpteenth iteration of my layout, but I dare not show it! I've incorporated every suggestion that's been made, I think. Wiser minds must be heeded! I hesitate, but I think I've done the best that I can do. I know, I've said that before and encouragement and further contributions take me back to the drawing board (AnyRail). I'm not confident there won't be more changes, thus my reticence to reveal where I am on the eve of laying track. I'll have to get it right at that point! I'm not happy with the space I have for the engine shed. I've discovered from photographs and historical sources that the Westbury shed was huge. Indeed, British History Online state that "In 1915 the G.W.R. opened their locomotive workshops there." So, the engine shed I will eventially add to the layout will be a sad representation of the actual shed. The entire left quandrant of the layout is too densely built up, but all the functions of the station are represented, I hope - though very much condensed and compact. My coal merchant is almost sitting on the makin avoiding line and there may be cows outside the passenger station! :) Oh, I almost forget. I was able to lengthen the platforms - a bit.
 
Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: chrispearce on July 12, 2018, 08:11:04 PM
GO ON, GO ON, GO ON!!!!!!!!!!!! Show us your new plan!!!!!!!!!!!! I DARE YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! In fact, I insist, and, as an Englishman, I expect to be obeyed!!!!!!!!!!!!  :veryangry:

No, seriously, I would love to see how you've adjusted things. Good news if you've managed to get some extra platform length in.
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: port perran on July 12, 2018, 08:14:49 PM
Seconded......go on Leon.
Letís see your latest plan. Please!!!!!
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 12, 2018, 09:56:44 PM
It didn't take much for me to relent! :)  Please note the colors - blue is the first section of track I'll be laying; light green is the second stage; and, the wine color will be the final phase of track. If AnyRail is anywhere near accurate, the first two phases should go smoothly. Note, also, that the ovals don't connect on the right side. I'll be using extendable track to close the gaps.

Please ask questions, state obvious faults, but PLEASE don't suggest any changes that isn't absolutely necessary. I'm expecting the baseboard foundation on the weekend and would like to start laying track next week.

(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/67/6724-120718214743.jpeg)
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 13, 2018, 12:20:15 AM
Dare I say it? I've made another adjustment! How many of you saw in the 1941 OS map that only one line ran between the Westbury platforms? Be honest! I've made an alteration that satisfies me, if it works when I run trains on the track. I'll share it when I know it works! Another thing I should have pointed out with the plan - beginning with the last foot and a half on either side of the layout, the track will be underground. The contour varies, though, so that only about six inches of the layout is elevated at the rear of the board. The height will be just enough for the trains to clear. I colored in one of my earlier printouts to show the contours, so I'll probably do this again. It helps me to invisage the rail inclines I'll have to build.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: chrispearce on July 13, 2018, 07:53:41 AM
Thank you Leon for the updated plan. Looking good. You really are researching this.

Just a few thoughts, mostly about the new layout of the loco shed.

1) Where you have the entry point into the depot is awfully close to the left hand edge of the baseboard. I fear you may end up with no useful length of headshunt. You have included a short length of straight track between the loco depot access point and the goods depot entry point. If you remove this the points will be closer and you MAY manage to accommodate a tender loco in the extended headshunt. I appreciate that the western-most scissors crossover is the governing factor but perhaps if you revert to your original platform lengths and move that scissors a bit further east you can have a practical lead for the loco depot.

2) The loco shed tracks use a right hand point. As this point is preceded by a left hand curve this will be better if you use a left hand point instead of the curve which will look better and make your shed sidings a bit longer.

3) If you move the turntable a bit south so that the line feeding the turntable is closer to the loco coaling line, or even make the coaling line the turntable feed, you could add a further 1 or 2 sidings in the loco shed area which will make the depot look more like the prototype. You say in an earlier thread that you felt it would be a poor representation of the depot and this idea could rectify this for you.

4) With the shortness of the loco depot headshunt I think you'll have to accept that the coaling stage and coal merchant will be more scenic adjuncts rather than functional as you won't have the room in the headshunt to bring a tank loco and wagons in and out. A more daring but perfectly practical solution would be to swap the right hand point accessing the goods depot with a left hand point which would then cause the access point for the loco depot and the headshunt to angle up and left towards the baseboard edge. This will enable a longer headshunt and as you suggest the mainline will be underground won't interfere with the rest of your plan. Also you could then leave the western scissors where it is and keep your new longer platforms. You could even lead the headshunt right into he top left-hand corner if you wanted a longer headshunt and you could take coal wagons in and out of the yard.
I hope I have expressed those thoughts clearly. It is early!

A great plan! Let me know what you think.
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: port perran on July 13, 2018, 08:01:17 AM
Hi Leon
I concur with Chrisí points.
Also.....and this is just my thoughts and might prove impractical or not of i terest. If you shortened the siding above the pond just a bit, you could add a spur off the inner blue line and effectively re-create the East Chord triangle. However as that wasnít added till 1942 is that out of your tome frame?
Other than that, itís a cracking representation of the area in the space you have at your disposal.
Looking forward to track being laid.
Martin
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: chrispearce on July 13, 2018, 08:46:52 AM
If you shortened the siding above the pond just a bit, you could add a spur off the inner blue line and effectively re-create the East Chord triangle.

An interesting idea Martin and one I looked at before but I couldn't see how Leon could incorporate the 180 degree curve. Do you think it could fit?
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: port perran on July 13, 2018, 10:04:03 AM
If you shortened the siding above the pond just a bit, you could add a spur off the inner blue line and effectively re-create the East Chord triangle.

An interesting idea Martin and one I looked at before but I couldn't see how Leon could incorporate the 180 degree curve. Do you think it could fit?
Yes Chris, when I looked it seemed tight. Possibly with a curved point?
Interestingly Leon, as you know I used to fish the right hand pond a lot. One of my favourite locations (known as ďthe muddy cornerĒ) was just where your 5th tree from the left is.
Martin
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: chrispearce on July 13, 2018, 10:33:24 AM
If you shortened the siding above the pond just a bit, you could add a spur off the inner blue line and effectively re-create the East Chord triangle.

An interesting idea Martin and one I looked at before but I couldn't see how Leon could incorporate the 180 degree curve. Do you think it could fit?
Yes Chris, when I looked it seemed tight. Possibly with a curved point?
Interestingly Leon, as you know I used to fish the right hand pond a lot. One of my favourite locations (known as ďthe muddy cornerĒ) was just where your 5th tree from the left is.
Martin

Well it would be an interesting addition if the curvature will fit. All he would need is a couple of well placed signals and a DPDT. The new plan would allow Leon to run SR stock in headed by an SR loco then swap for a WR loco while the SR loco is turned ready for the return journey or vice versa. I believe that this kind of operation happened at Salisbury but a little modellers' licence is all that would be needed. Should make for an interesting layout with enjoyable operations.
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Newportnobby on July 13, 2018, 11:47:25 AM
Sorry, Leon, but I agree with Chris in that, if the headshunt to loco and goods yards can't be extended, then everything in those yards is virtually relegated to being static exhibits. As it stands there's not room for a tender loco to exit the shed, let alone any trucks from the goods yard/coaling area :hmmm:
I have previously mentioned the use of a point instead of a curve to lengthen sidings and remove an unneeded 'S' from the track plan but in the case Chris mentions I would put a LH point in place of the LH curve to the loco shed and let that line join the turntable line. I like the idea of a piece of track where another loco can wait patiently to be turned without totally blocking access to the turntable. Just a thought, though.
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Caz on July 13, 2018, 01:32:53 PM
Would agree with the other, the headshunt is too short plus I still can't see how you are going to get the wine coloured headshunt over the blue tracks (left hand bottom corner'ish) without having a ski slope to get clearance.   :worried:
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 13, 2018, 04:56:42 PM
A hearty thank you to all who have commented! The suggestions will be addressed one by one and I'll direct my questions and the obstacles I face to each of you, later. I'm awaiting the delivery of my baseboard frame! I painted the foam board yesterday in chocolate and green. I think the directors would be pleased, but I don't think they'd hire me as a painter! :)

I was surprised that no one commented on the single line between platforms! Why do you think that was done? I've taken another look this morning (after sleeping on it for I thought maybe I'd misread the map). Incidentally, the only skill I posess for building this layout is map reading, and I don't think the cartographer made a mistake! Each of you is free to disagree, however, and if you do disagree I'd like for you to tell me. As most of you must realize, I know little about railroad operations!

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 13, 2018, 05:08:22 PM
Would agree with the other, the headshunt is too short plus I still can't see how you are going to get the wine coloured headshunt over the blue tracks (left hand bottom corner'ish) without having a ski slope to get clearance.   :worried:

Hi, Caz. I guess you weren't reading the early posts on the other thread (planning). The whole station track area is above the level of the station, and the blue line is at the station level (probably a bit lower). The blue line will rise slightly, shortly after the upper right hand curve (not much room is needed for the down incline as the road under the railway dips at that point), and descend gradually after the bridge in the lower right hand straight. Plenty of room to descend before passing under the wine colored line. I think! Thanks for your observation, and others have made me aware of the need to move the head shut a bit to the right. The last change of plan was done in a bit of haste, and I just overlooked that in my satisfaction that I'd found a solution to the other issues. I'm using Kato, exclusively, and am rather limited. One person, for example, suggested a curved point. Kato doesn't make curved points!

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: chrispearce on July 13, 2018, 05:23:15 PM
Hi Leon. Glad you found our collective (borg-like) thoughts useful. I can't answer the question about the single line between the platforms. The pics you have posted show 2 tracks that split either side of the signal box at one end - which end I don't know. Excellent news about painting your board and the incoming frame. Hope you are pleased with them.
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 13, 2018, 05:43:45 PM
Hi Leon. Glad you found our collective (borg-like) thoughts useful. I can't answer the question about the single line between the platforms. The pics you have posted show 2 tracks that split either side of the signal box at one end - which end I don't know. Excellent news about painting your board and the incoming frame. Hope you are pleased with them.

Chris, I'm a happy camper! My frame was just delivered and it looks just like the picture I shared with him. I can't judge carpentry any better than train stuff, but it sure looks good to me. Now, I just need to give the foamboard another coat of paint and glue it to the frame (the frame looks so good, I hate to mess it up with glue!). By Monday I'll be testing the track plan. With a little luck, I'll have a confirmed Phase 1 plan by the end of the week and can start doing the topographical contours. Almost everyone (of those commenting) has had reservations about the track crossings. It's hard to show on a two dimenstional drawing, but I've never seen a problem. I've been there and walked the perimeter of the station, and driven down and along the express line. The elevaton at Westbury rises gradually from the town north beyond the station, though it appears to me that between the building of the railway and Westbury Iron Works, the elevation was probably artifically raised. Be that as it may, there's plenty room for the station lines to pass over the express line. In reality, out of the station the lines west and south are built on embankments.

For those who are considering my question about the single line through the station, here again is the map link - https://maps.nls.uk/view/101463356. I love that map, by the way!

More later after I've studied the suggestions and played a little more with AnyRail.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: chrispearce on July 13, 2018, 06:03:01 PM
Glad the frame is a success. You might consider adding some screws as well. Gluing 'n' screwing a baseboard to it's frame is very common. Just in case the glue fails over time. Something of a belt 'n' braces approach!

Forgive me, but I have noticed several times that you keep saying things like "I don't know anything about railroading". Judging by your very clever adaptation and interpretation of Westbury into a functional model railway track plan I think you are being unduly harsh on yourself Sir!!  I would wager that none of us are absolute experts and the learning of the multitude of skills involved with railway/railroad modelling is one of the benefits/joys of the hobby e.g. visualization, planning, daydreaming, carpentry, electronics (which you can take as far as you like), art, painting - the list goes on. If Rule 1 states that you can run what you like on your railway, then, maybe, Rule 2 should be "Enjoy the journey into the hobby"?

Good luck with the initial tracklaying. The mainline looks like the obvious place to start as you can then run trains and work your way into the Wiltsbury station. This will give time to finalise those odd details which seem to have entranced so many of us here! It really is a great plan and deserves to be a triumph!
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 13, 2018, 07:24:11 PM
Good luck with the initial tracklaying. The mainline looks like the obvious place to start as you can then run trains and work your way into the Wiltsbury station. This will give time to finalise those odd details which seem to have entranced so many of us here! It really is a great plan and deserves to be a triumph!

Chris, self denegration does become a bore! :) But, truthfully...! My purpose is to enjoy the twilight of my life, and this project will provide that for so long as I'm healthy enough to engage. My baseboard frame was too expensive for me, so it is an 80th birthday gift from my wife!

You've seen clearly my operational plan. I ran my locomotives for the first time for just a few minutes last week. I want to get the oval in place and the line through the station so that I can test my locomotives (and wagons), and the points. During that period, I'll be building up the terrain around the rails and establishing workable inclines.

I've already gone to AnyRail and made some modifications. I found some extra room on the left side to extend the headshunt. I now have 192 mm before the point. My 5044 is 120 mm, the 14xx is 65 mm, and the wagons are in the 25-30 mm range, for the most part. Do you think that will suffice? Part of the room I took from the right side of the layout, moving the rails a bit closer than I like to the edge. There will have to be compromises, but I want to be historically correct. I'll post the plan with revisions as soon as I get things cleaned up.

I'm still playing with some of the other issues, but would like to point out that I'm trying to place the rail yard functions as close as I can to they way they existed in 1941. Both the goods station and the shed were much further from the station than I can show them, but from top to bottom they are in the right order, though the shed should be further from the station than the goods station. The coaling stage is right where it should be, but the coal merchant is an "add on". It seems logical that there would be a coal merchant and that he would be near the coaling stage. Finally, there was a cattle pen between the goods station and the passenger station. I wanted to include that in the model, but may have to exercise poetic license, once more, and add it somewhere else. As you stated, there is time to work out these details.

Martin, I think of you fishing every time I work on the layout plan! I'm not tied to 1941, but except for the chord and the army supply depot, there wasn't much change before nationalization so far as I can see. (I've bought an army vehicle to put on the road that would have led to the supply depot!) The old iron works removed prior to 1941 and a cheese factory was built at the 45 degree turn of the road to Ham above the station. I may add a factory where the cheese factory was located (and may still exist as there is a large dairy processing facility in Westbury a bit further north).  I have a couple of locomotives that are post 1942, and the army vehicle is post 1942. I'm still waiting for you to answer my question about the single track between the platforms! My solution for converting from two to one track isn't perfect, but does allow me to place the signal box correctly between tracks.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: port perran on July 13, 2018, 07:42:20 PM
Hi Leon
Re the single track.
If you view any photos of Westbury station there arre two tracks between the platforms. Just google Westbury station and choose pictures.
Those platforms havenít moved and as far as I am aware there has always been double tracks between platforms 2 and 3. Operationally to have only one track would make no sense.
I can only assume that your map has simplified things somewhat.
Martin

Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: chrispearce on July 13, 2018, 07:51:55 PM
From the measurements you are quoting for the new headshunt and your wagons it would seem that a loco and 4 wagons should fit. My Bachmann Farish catalogue states that one of their pannier tanks is 67mm so 67+(30x4)=187mm which is less than your 192mm. However, if you wish to post a new Anyrail plan we can take a look and see if you can buy some extra length. Also if the headshunt is 192mm then the lead into the goods yard will also include the length of the loco depot access point which may allow for another wagon or 2.
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Newportnobby on July 13, 2018, 08:24:32 PM
I see what you mean about the single tracks through the station then opening out to two. It seems a strange arrangement but maybe at the time space for the station area as a whole was limited :hmmm:
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: chrispearce on July 13, 2018, 08:37:19 PM
I have seen some very grainy old pics of Westbury Station and there are 2 tracks between the main platforms. The pics all seem to pre-date your era and, judging by the locos and rolling stock, are pre-big four. Often when the GWR was converted from broad gauge to standard gauge it may have been that there was room to place 2 tracks where previously there had only been 1 but, where platforms were concerned, there would still have needed to be an increase in space to accommodate them. I am of the opinion that it is a simplification on the map although sidings etc. seem well represented. The Great Westbury Conundrum?

I think you will be safe having 2 tracks Leon. Look forward to seeing the new plan ;)
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 13, 2018, 08:40:03 PM
Hi Leon
Re the single track.
If you view any photos of Westbury station there arre two tracks between the platforms. Just google Westbury station and choose pictures.
Those platforms havenít moved and as far as I am aware there has always been double tracks between platforms 2 and 3. Operationally to have only one track would make no sense.
I can only assume that your map has simplified things somewhat.
Martin

Martin, I crafted a careful and detailed response and posted it - but it has disappeared. Rather than attempt to re-write it, just let me say that you know how much respect I have for you, and how much I appreciate your in-put. I can't deny a cartographer's drawing at the scale of the one I'm using, however. In 1941, there was just one track running between platforms in Westbury. :)  I've read of changes made to the Westbury platforms over the years, but didn't understand what I was reading and now can't recall what I read. Bottom line is I'm only able to attempt a model based upon what I can see. I agree a single line doesn't make sense, on the face of it. But neither did the use of the same track for up and down traffic which I saw with my own eyes when I was there in June. A trainspotter told me it was standard practice at Westbury. Things DO change, and some changes don't last long enough to be captured in a photograph.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: chrispearce on July 13, 2018, 08:58:11 PM
Looking at your reply to Martin above I would have to say your logic, Spock, as always, is impeccable. However, the camera, as they say, never lies and perhaps it is safer to go with the overwhelming amount of evidence they are providing. If, as you say, a modification was made to the number of platform roads then this would have meant widening the platforms then cutting them back again when double track was re-instated. A rather expensive change for what benefit?

You have had to accept concessions and compromises in your plan so why trouble yourself about this, potentially, short-lived possibility. You have changed the name from Westbury to Wiltsbury so you are now relieved from complete historical accuracy anyway. If you want 1 or 2 tracks through the main platforms is entirely up to you. How do you wish to operate the station taking into account the number of trains you envisage running? Personally, I'd stick to 2 simply for operational flexibility.
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: chrispearce on July 13, 2018, 09:48:25 PM
I am warming to this subject. Leon, you are perfectly at liberty to shoot me or to ask the USAF to perform a surgical airstrike upon my house but I am going to put my neck on the block and offer (yet) another suggestion. Can I offer the outrageous notion that you eliminate the scissors crossover at the right hand end of the station? That way you could realign the tracks coming from the top platform so that the upper most platform track continues as a straight line and the uppermost of the 2 middle platform tracks curves up to join it. This will (surely) create enough space for a correct position for the signal box. This is, also, prototypical for Westbury.

The curve that leads to your small northern station contains a short length of straight track which could be removed to help accommodate this change. A simple crossover running top left to lower right could replace the scissors. It's just I feel that, whereas a scissors at the left end makes perfect sense, one at the right side end is a potentially expensive item for a branch line that, ultimately, terminates at the upper baseboard edge. Does this branch justify access to all 4 platform faces?

If, however, you envisage a possible future northern extension then it may be best to leave it as it is.

Just a thought.
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: tunneroner61 on July 14, 2018, 12:22:43 AM
Leon, sorry but you have got it wrong, as has whoever drew the map I sent you. In 1941 there were TWO tracks through the middle platforms. If you review the photographs on this site again http://www.cornwallrailwaysociety.org.uk/taunton-to-westbury.html# (http://www.cornwallrailwaysociety.org.uk/taunton-to-westbury.html#) you will see there has been TWO tracks through the central platforms since the station was rebuilt in the 1890s. Martin @portperran has confirmed this earlier. Look at again too at the signal box diagrams in the links I sent you earlier.

Conventionally tracks in the past were either up or down and so single direction. However in recent times in the UK many tracks have been rearranged and resignalled for bi directional working. Please do not assume what existed in 1938 is current practice in the UK or vice versa - much has changed.
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 14, 2018, 01:09:08 AM
If you want 1 or 2 tracks through the main platforms is entirely up to you. How do you wish to operate the station taking into account the number of trains you envisage running? Personally, I'd stick to 2 simply for operational flexibility.


Chris, the fact is that the width of one or both platforms were, apparently altered. That was what I've read, but I didn't understand why.

My layout doesn't require turning engines, but for the benefit of historical accuracy I've added the turntable (which I never wanted and resisted adding). I didn't ever imagine a single line between the platforms, but despite the short space I was able to accommodate that change, also. (See the revised track play below.) That side of Platform 2 is used today, designated as Platform 3, and i was able to watch trains arrive from the west and cross over from the double track to stop at Platform 3 on the outside. So my modeling reflects the actual operation today, and must have been the operation in 1941. The change to a single line through the station gave me room to accommodate the signal box between the two tracks - at the east end of Platform 2, which I couldn't accomplish with two tracks between the platforms. I like that, but not at the expense of historical accuracy!

My daughter has just visited me and suggested the railways were probably lifting redundant track for the war effort! What do you think? Trains were stopping at Platform 3  already, apparently, and with the closing of the iron works and the building of the avoiding line, one of the tracks may have been deemed redundant - along with a lot of other track (as indicated by a later map). I had not considered the effect of the war effort, but we know the railways paid a price above many industries. Incidentally, if the track was lifted for the war effort, might the turntable and associated track have been lifted after the drawing of this map? We know regular passenger services were reduced or eliminated during the war. Lots to think about; questions that remain unanswered!

I've discovered that people on the forum have very different primary interests. Some like modeling buildings while others like running trains, etc. I think my primary interest is modeling the terrain and representing a real place within a specific time frame. Scale of location is important, but I can't put everything on my board for the realism I'd like. I can be honest with my representation, however, and I appreciate those who have confirmed my planned layout does that. I also agree totally with your statement "You have changed the name from Westbury to Wiltsbury so you are now relieved from complete historical accuracy anyway. If you want 1 or 2 tracks through the main platforms is entirely up to you." Frankly, I'd rather have two, but like the redundant track the GWR may have removed in 1941, I'd have to say that my layout doesn't need two railes between the platforms. I'll be running two trains on the avoiding line, bringing one in occasionally to the station, and doing a little shunting. My preference is just to sit back and watch the trains run through a layout I've constructed based on a map and historical research. I think I've said it before; three months ago I'd never heard of Westbury.

Leon

(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/67/6724-140718014716.jpeg)

Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 14, 2018, 01:27:55 AM
Leon, sorry but you have got it wrong, as has whoever drew the map I sent you. In 1941 there were TWO tracks through the middle platforms. If you review the photographs on this site again [url]http://www.cornwallrailwaysociety.org.uk/taunton-to-westbury.html#[/url] ([url]http://www.cornwallrailwaysociety.org.uk/taunton-to-westbury.html#[/url]) you will see there has been TWO tracks through the central platforms since the station was rebuilt in the 1890s. Martin @portperran has confirmed this earlier. Look at again too at the signal box diagrams in the links I sent you earlier.

Conventionally tracks in the past were either up or down and so single direction. However in recent times in the UK many tracks have been rearranged and resignalled for bi directional working. Please do not assume what existed in 1938 is current practice in the UK or vice versa - much has changed.


Norman, first I have to admit that I can't read the signal diagrams! Secondly, I may have it wrong. However, I've just posted a message in response to Chris that offers another explanation - track uplifted to aid the war effort. Now, as far fetched as that may sound, don't dismiss it out of hand, as a single rail through the station and the one which later became Platform 3 would have probably been adequate for the traffic during wartime. Most likely the majority of traffic was routed on the avoiding line. Also, the iron works' rails were redundant, and the army supply depot had their own rail system. What I'm suggesting is feasible, and my bet is that none of us know much about the wartime operation at this station. If the station was altered, it would have been for maybe five years. A short space of time in the history of GWR and Westbury. Finally, OS cartographers wouldn't make the kind of mistake you're attributing to them, and looking at undated pictures doesn't help.

As always, thanks for reflecting on this issue affecting my layout plan.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 14, 2018, 02:35:46 AM
Martin and Chris have convinced me to let it be MY railroad! Since I can't adequately model the scale of the Westbury Engine Depot, I'm eliminating the turntable (which would dwarf my shed). I'll run my trains through the station track as presently configured, and if there are problems - or if it just doesn't look right - I'll revert to two rails between the platforms. Other potential changes will not significantly impact the historical accuracy of the layout - which will now be modeled for 1942 to account for the GWR monogram on some of my locomotives. Any other inconsistencies I'll plead Rule #1 - like everyone else. :) I'll post pictures of my frame and the painted foamboard, but otherwise I'm going to be quiet for a while while I go to work on the track laying and topography. And, they all said AMEN!

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: njee20 on July 14, 2018, 08:36:22 AM
Whilst I understand and applaud you seeking perfect hisotrical accuracy within the limitations you have, I donít understand why youíve singled the line through the platforms. Ok there is one map, not a track diagram, which shows it. This against the overwhelming evidence of photos and opinions of others, and what you have said youíd rather do.

Lifting track wasnít trivial, they wouldnít realign the platforms to help the war effort, it would be pointless. We know for a fact that before and after the war there were two tracks. It seems incomprehensible that the map you have is correct, so altering your plan to accommodate it seems a curious choice.
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: chrispearce on July 14, 2018, 08:45:09 AM
Hi Leon. Like the new plan. It should work well. I still feel using a left hand point to access the goods yard adjacent to the loco depot to angle the loco depot access point and the headshunt up and left will make entry and exit from both yards easier. It still looks a bit tight at the moment. Losing the turntable will give you more space for a meaningful loco depot.

I have built a couple of Peco turntables and I have found it difficult to make them spin smoothly. They don't have wheels which run on the circle of track like the OO gauge version does and use rounded plastic pieces instead. Also you would need to decide whether you want to have a hand-crank or an electric motor to turn the table and alignment would need to be by eye in either case. It would look nice but, if you don't need it, better to use the space for a bigger loco shed.

Good luck with getting your first tracks down. Look forward to seeing and hearing about your progress. :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: ten0G on July 14, 2018, 10:25:05 PM
I bought the MAINLINE 37-058 OO GAUGE GWR 2251 CLASS COLLETT 0-6-0 before I decided to model N Gauge. Does anyone know if it's been done in N?

Leon

Apart from the Union Mills model, there was one by Peco which occasionally appears on eBay.

Leon,

You may be interested in this:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/PECO-Trains-Railways-Boxed-NL-25-0-6-0-Collett-Goods-GWR-Green-Shirtbutton/372365288933?epid=2080500081&hash=item56b2b365e5:g:v3EAAOSwKJhbP4nc#shpCntId (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/PECO-Trains-Railways-Boxed-NL-25-0-6-0-Collett-Goods-GWR-Green-Shirtbutton/372365288933?epid=2080500081&hash=item56b2b365e5:g:v3EAAOSwKJhbP4nc#shpCntId)

Usual disclaimer, wording on box implies that although it's DCC-fitted it will run on DC.  Tender-driven I believe.  P&P's about £13.45 to States?   

Some think tender is over-scale, perhaps not as finely detailed as contemporary Farish/Dapol offerings. 

Regards,

Dick. 

Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Newportnobby on July 14, 2018, 11:32:08 PM
I have the BR black version of the Peco one. They're fitted originally with a Lenz decoder which allows running on DC. Yes, the tender is oversize and the drive is from the tender but they are still smart looking locos with more detail than the Union Mills version. Nowhere near the Union Mills price though! I'd be surprised if that one on Fleabay goes for less than £120.
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 15, 2018, 01:27:37 AM


Leon,

You may be interested in this:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/PECO-Trains-Railways-Boxed-NL-25-0-6-0-Collett-Goods-GWR-Green-Shirtbutton/372365288933?epid=2080500081&hash=item56b2b365e5:g:v3EAAOSwKJhbP4nc#shpCntId (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/PECO-Trains-Railways-Boxed-NL-25-0-6-0-Collett-Goods-GWR-Green-Shirtbutton/372365288933?epid=2080500081&hash=item56b2b365e5:g:v3EAAOSwKJhbP4nc#shpCntId)
[/quote]

Thanks for remembering me, Dick! Yes I would be interested, but not at that price. I'll be surprised if they get a bid - but what do I know? I suppose there are people who value the early models who might pay that price. I can buy a new goods locomotive at Hatton's for 124 pounds and after they deduct VAT it's nearer to 100 pounds. Their shipping charge to me has been 3.50 for everything I've bought, so far.

If you see anything else, please give me a shout. It will need to be under 75 pounds if used, though.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 15, 2018, 01:34:22 AM
Chris, I finally figured out your suggestion!!! That's what I call thinking outside the box! And, it's a nice alternative, though maybe doesn't buy enough room for me to swith to it. I'll keep it in mind, however. It might have been even more attractive before I made the latest changes. Dare I say, I think I may be about where I want to be? Isn't it amazing what switching one piece of track can do in terms of opening up new possibilities? Alas, your kind of thinking doesn't come naturally to me, anymore. :)

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: ten0G on July 15, 2018, 06:27:33 PM

If you see anything else, please give me a shout. It will need to be under 75 pounds if used, though.

Leon
Leon,

There's another Shirtbutton one here, but it probably won't be under £75 when the bidding starts! 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Union-Mills-Models-Train-Boxed-GWR-DUKEDOG-32xx-CLASS-440-LOCO-SHIRTBUTTON-3204/352402249782?hash=item520ccf9836%3Ag%3Al90AAOSwiNxbPyfC&_sacat=0&_nkw=union+mills+dukedog&_from=R40&rt=nc&_trksid=m570.l1313 (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Union-Mills-Models-Train-Boxed-GWR-DUKEDOG-32xx-CLASS-440-LOCO-SHIRTBUTTON-3204/352402249782?hash=item520ccf9836%3Ag%3Al90AAOSwiNxbPyfC&_sacat=0&_nkw=union+mills+dukedog&_from=R40&rt=nc&_trksid=m570.l1313)
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 15, 2018, 06:56:24 PM
There's another Shirtbutton one here, but it probably won't be under £75 when the bidding starts! 

Dick, you're probably right. It's a dealer, but at least it starts under 75 pounds. Maybe I should start the bidding? Have you any knowledge of the dealer? Is this one of the models you've bought? It looks kinda fragile (not the model, the loco) compared to the Dapol 2S-009-004 Class 2884 2-8-0 3803 I'm considering. I'd have already bought it, if it came with shirtbutton.


This loco is right for my period, but I've just been reading about it and apparently it was used primarily for passenger work - as I've interpreted the Wikipedea article. I'll probably buy another passesnger loco, but only after I buy one for mainline freight work - or unless the price is VERY attractive.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: ten0G on July 15, 2018, 07:58:22 PM
Maybe I should start the bidding? Have you any knowledge of the dealer? Is this one of the models you've bought?

I normally wait until the last moment to see what the price is! 

I've no knowledge of the dealer but assume they're a bona fide charity. 

In BR guise, it's one of the models I'm hoping to buy. 

This loco is right for my period, but I've just been reading about it and apparently it was used primarily for passenger work - as I've interpreted the Wikipedea article. I'll probably buy another passesnger loco, but only after I buy one for mainline freight work - or unless the price is VERY attractive.

I'm not sure if they were mixed traffic locos or not, perhaps others can advise please. 

Regards, Dick.
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 15, 2018, 08:35:51 PM
Dick, how old would that Peco model be that you showed. I rather like it, but as I don't see Peco locos for sale, I'm' a bit wary, even if I could buy it for less than the listed price. I'm reluctant to buy used, now, after a couple that I've bought were disappointing. In most cases, I'll pay double for a new one, I think. But, as the new prices continue to rise, so do the used prices - and people are buying them.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: port perran on July 15, 2018, 08:43:47 PM
Those Peco Collett Goods 0-6-0s are no longer made so second hand is your only option I think.
I have one and it works fine.
Do remember that Union Mills also make one and still do as far as I know.
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: ten0G on July 15, 2018, 09:45:34 PM
how old would that Peco model be


Leon,

Sorry, I've no idea.  I know it was a limited run, but didn't take too much interest as I thought they were DCC only, and Japan's a bit distant from the British scene. 

I think there are others on the Forum who can help like @Newportnobby (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=264). 

Regards, Dick. 
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Newportnobby on July 15, 2018, 09:54:59 PM
If memory serves the Peco 22xx was released around 2005/6.
I would consider the real thing to be a mixed traffic loco as it was quite happy on local passenger trains as well as pick up goods.
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: chrispearce on July 16, 2018, 03:28:18 AM
Good (early) morning Leon. :wave:

How's things going?
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 16, 2018, 03:46:37 AM
This is it - the final plan before laying track. The image below is Wiltsbury Junction showing elevations in color. The elevations of Westbury and vicinity, the source of my inspiration for this layout, are pretty much as seen here. The lower part of the layout is essentially the elevation of the avoiding line and the town. Follow the road in the lower right and it rises significantly from the railway bridge to the right hand turn. But, before crossing the local lines, after the left turn into Wiltsbury Station, the road is on an embankment. (I walked from the road into the station up steps to the bridge. It is a steep climb of perhaps twenty feet.) After crossing the railroad the road follows the terrain and risees gradually before Biss River Station. A steeper slope is necessary at the top of the layout to conceal the rail and rolling stock that will pass beneath it, the only significant departure from reality. Finally, map contours are drawn at intervals so one must accept many changes in elevation from one contour to the next are quite subtle.

The color contours do not apply to track which will incline and decline for the two bridge crossing - the one over the road passing the Railway Inn into town, and the other crossing under the railroad line between Biss River and Marsh View (not seen). As in reality for the modeled location, tracks are on embankments when elevations are too steep.

Thanks for viewing, and I'll keep the Forum informed in the coming days, weeks, and months. The baseboard has been painted, and the first phase of the track will be layed (temporarily) this week. I expect to test the track by running my locomotives for a few days before lifting the track to begin work on the topography - probably next week, if there are no set backs! The land was here first, so the track will not be laid permanently until after creationl!

Leon

(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/67/6724-160718025127.jpeg)


Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 16, 2018, 03:50:57 AM
Good (early) morning Leon. :wave:

How's things going?

Chris, I'm ready for MY bed! Have a great day!

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: chrispearce on July 16, 2018, 03:59:40 AM
Nice plan Leon. Good luck with Day 1 of the Creation.  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 16, 2018, 08:19:44 PM
I've no stock in Dow Corning, so I'll not be advocating for their foam insulation on this Forum. I will be reporting my impressions as I go along. Up until decision time, I was intending to top my frame with plywood and 1" foam board. And, then I found a source referencing extruded polystyrene. I tried to learn something about the product, but was not successful. However, during my searches I found an American modeler who got the idea from Australia and said it had worked great for him. It seems that this board is popular in Australia, and modelers there spoke of it being a U. S. product. So I looked further and the only board I found advertised as "extruded" was the Dow Corning board. The cost was about $35.00. The thing that tipped the scales for me was the thickness - 2".

I've previously shown here the "raw" board and I think I posted a photo of the board after painting. I used latex paint and it was a breeze. Two coats were necessary for a good cover, but I gave the top an extra coat. I have lots of green and chocolate paint left, so I'll use it to paint the foam board I'll use for building the terrain. I'm adding a couple more photos to show a little of the support frame.

In the course of my layout construction if there are problems with the board, I'll mention them, too, and I'm not too proud to admit a mistake, so if I decide that using foam without plywood was a mistake, I'll tell you. Reiterating what I've said already, at this point I'm surprised at just how rigid and strong the board is. And, it should be for it's popular as underfloor insulation. I don't know if it's used in the U. K.

Leon

(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/67/6724-160718201709.jpeg)

(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/67/6724-160718201747.jpeg)
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: chrispearce on July 16, 2018, 09:53:17 PM
Nice looking frame and tidy baseboard. Now let the fun begin! :beers:
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 18, 2018, 02:30:25 AM
I had a bit of fun tonight. Fun can be very tiring, though! :) The two ovals in my layout were completed and my hat is off to AnyRail and Kato. Everything fit just as it was supposed to and the track was really easy to lay, lying so snuggly it's not easy to lift from the surface. I found that an ultra thin piece of cardboard worked best, slipped under the track base. I made a few tweeks in AnyRail for tomorrow's task - laying the two double crossovers, track, and points through the station. I was able to move the right double crossover enough to add a significant amount of space to the head shunt on the left side. Nothing else was affected, too much, though I returned to a tight curve leaving the station for Biss River. After completing the track through the station I'll run my locomotives for a few days while I mull over the next phase of track laying (the line to Biss River and beyond). That will be after marking and lifting the track for creating contours, inclines, and tunnels. That will take a a few weeks, no doubt, so after tomorrow no more track laying for a while. I'll post an image of the state of the project, tomorrow.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: chrispearce on July 18, 2018, 04:36:10 AM
Sounds like you have lift off Leon. Look forward to seeing some pics. :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: dannyboy on July 18, 2018, 05:22:04 AM
@Leon (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=6724)
One thing I will say Leon when using Unitrack for inclines, be careful of where the track joints are in relation to the start of the incline. I have a 'drop down' incline starting immediately after a bridge and it has taken me numerous attempts to get the track to not have an angle where the two pieces of track join! In other words, start with a very gentle incline - hope that makes sense.
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: chrispearce on July 18, 2018, 05:29:40 AM
Dannyboy is right Leon. Blend into a gradient with shallower inclines at the top and bottom. A sudden change from flat to incline can cause too much of an angle and will be a hassle to locos and rolling stock.
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: keithbythe sea on July 18, 2018, 06:25:25 AM
Sounds like great progress Leon 👍
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: njee20 on July 18, 2018, 07:49:02 AM
Not a Unitrack user, but could you slit the base with a razor saw to enable more vertical flex at the transition, rather than putting the strain on the joiners?
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Caz on July 18, 2018, 08:09:11 AM
Sounds like you're really getting somewhere Leon, looking forward to seeing the pictures.   :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 18, 2018, 06:00:38 PM
Not a Unitrack user, but could you slit the base with a razor saw to enable more vertical flex at the transition, rather than putting the strain on the joiners?

I'm not the one to ask, but I've seen demonstrations on YouTube of the base being cut for horizontal flexibility, so I don't see why it couldn't be done for vertible flexibility, as well. The track is rather flexible as is, however. Kato does have physical constraints, but I'm amazed at how they've answered most problems; i.e. the expandable track sections. In my response to Dannyboy, I explained that I'm experimenting with Woodland Scenics 2 percent Incline Starters. I don't have the risers yet, but have used the Incline Starters to join with the one bridge in my oval. (I've only one incline/decline in my oval with plenty of space for clearance.) You'll see the Incline Starter after I've  finished with today's work. I've some domestic tasks to attend to, so most of you may be asleep when I take the photo and post.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Newportnobby on July 18, 2018, 09:49:41 PM
Sleep? In this heat? Whassat? :goggleeyes:
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 19, 2018, 01:19:32 AM
Most of you are asleep, so it's time for me to report in! Phase one of my track laying (tentative) is short of a few pieces of track. I'm not sure how I miscalculated, but it may be something to do with last minute changes in the layout plan. Nevertheless, I have the up and down ovals finished and one line of track through the station. I'll be assessing my track needs and ordering more before bedtime, here.

I've added several photos below. I'd appreciate comment on a couple of things. First, as I've known all along, the track is very close to the edge of the board, especially at the top and bottom. Second, the sharp curve between the station and Biss River is what I expected, but.... I've included my rail-over-road bridge using a section of 2 degree incline polystyrene on either side. I've not run the locomotives, yet, but it works well with the two coaches you'll see in the photos. Of course, it will be much higher with the inclines beginning and ending a good bit before and after the bridge. Should I go to a steeper incline? I've placed a Peco platform between two tracks, and at the end of the platform I've placed the base of a Ratio Signal Box Kit. i think there is nothing more to mention except that although I'm working on a big board, it sure seems small! The platform is too short and there is going to be some serious crowding of buildings and functions. It's just as it was in the 2D plan, except for a little improvisation when I ran out of track. Maybe it will look more natural as it's built out.

Leon

(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/67/6724-190718010738.jpeg)

(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/67/6724-190718010816.jpeg)

(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/67/6724-190718010846.jpeg)

(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/67/6724-190718010921.jpeg)

(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/67/6724-190718010956.jpeg)
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: dannyboy on July 19, 2018, 01:50:25 AM
First thing I will say Leon is - don't let Newportnobby see how close to the edges your tracks are!  ;D. Looking at the pictures as you have them, it looks like you will be operating the layout from the rail over road bridge side. I can envisage a problem in that if you have to lean over the elevated tracks to get to the inevitable mishap at the other side of the layout, damage will be caused! Can the layout be rotated 180į so that the elevated section is at the back - or am I looking at it the wrong way?
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 19, 2018, 02:20:20 AM
First thing I will say Leon is - don't let Newportnobby see how close to the edges your tracks are!  ;D. Looking at the pictures as you have them, it looks like you will be operating the layout from the rail over road bridge side. I can envisage a problem in that if you have to lean over the elevated tracks to get to the inevitable mishap at the other side of the layout, damage will be caused! Can the layout be rotated 180į so that the elevated section is at the back - or am I looking at it the wrong way?

David, you're right. The elevated road crossing is on the lower right corner. No way to alter that. I have access on all four sides of the board, though, so don't really anticipate a problem - though it's the un-anticipated problems that create the worst outcomes. The back of the layout will be elevated, also, with all rails tunneling below the higher terrain. The height will be just enough to clear the trains, however. I doubt there are any tunnels below the GWR London-Bath/Bristol line in the north, but a tunnel is the best solution for this layout.

You're up very early  - or late to bed! I'll be away to my bed, shortly. I guess you're still suffering from the heat. Mick just posted his reaction!

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: dannyboy on July 19, 2018, 02:28:58 AM
If the layout is accessible from all 4 sides there's no problem. As for being up early - or late - I am working, (sorry, that should read at work). I have convinced the bosses over the last couple of years that, as I am over retirement age, I should reduce my hours. I now work 5 x 12 hour shifts per 2 weeks, so, in effect, I have every second week off work.  :) :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: chrispearce on July 19, 2018, 03:34:02 AM
 :greatpicturessign:

You have done a lot! I am full of questions but I'm not going to ask them. I will wait and see this develop instead.

One thing - I thought Wiltsbury station was supposed to be higher than the mainline. It seems to be at the same level.
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: keithbythe sea on July 19, 2018, 07:01:59 AM
Great progress, and so tidy!

NN will have very large kittens when he sees how close the track is to the edge. Iíll let him comment 😀

Iíve used a 3% incline on Sonmel which is probably close to the maximum you can use. I would test with your locos and stock before using a slope this steep.

Looking really good  :beers:
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Train Waiting on July 19, 2018, 09:34:12 AM
Hello Leon

That looks a splendid job; very organised and tidy.

One thing you might just wish to consider at this stage.  From your excellent photographs I can see one pair of power feeds to the tracks (the blue/white wires).  For a layout this size, it could be a good idea to put in a few more power feeds where possible.  Another pair at the far end, for example.  This will reduce the power drop as the electricity makes its way through a lot of 'Unijoiners'.  My Sandrock layout (mostly AT&SF) is 13"x3" (plus a few sidings on a right angle) and it benefitted greatly from additional power feeds.  Before I fitted them, one could see a train slowing down the further it got from the power feeds and then speeding up as it came round the oval and got closer again!

If you choose to try this idea, please say and I'll gladly suggest where you ought not put additional power feeds, based on your track plan.  And, of course, other members of the Forum will be helpful as well.

Great progress.

Best wishes.

John
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Bealman on July 19, 2018, 09:42:04 AM
Sleep? In this heat? Whassat? :goggleeyes:

You guys don't know the meaning of the word  :P

Leon, the layout is coming along nicely. I too worry about you being able to reach the far tracks easily, though.
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Newportnobby on July 19, 2018, 09:47:47 AM
First thing I will say Leon is - don't let Newportnobby see how close to the edges your tracks are!  ;D.


NN will have very large kittens when he sees how close the track is to the edge. Iíll let him comment

You guys have said it for me :P

Sleep? In this heat? Whassat? :goggleeyes:

You guys don't know the meaning of the word  :P


But we live in little boxes which rarely have aircon systems because they're so seldom required (a bit like snowploughs in the winter ::))
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Bealman on July 19, 2018, 10:04:44 AM
Hey, get off.... I just bought a magbook about the KWVR (book review coming) and there's a pic of it snowing at the end of last year!

Anyway, thread hijack. Sorry, Leon.  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 19, 2018, 04:09:52 PM
:greatpicturessign:

You have done a lot! I am full of questions but I'm not going to ask them. I will wait and see this develop instead.

One thing - I thought Wiltsbury station was supposed to be higher than the mainline. It seems to be at the same level.

Chris, what you see in the pictures is about all you're going to see for a while. Sorry! I'm going to start running the trains today. After I'm through testing, I'll disassemble the track (after marking the the footprint on the baseboard), and start working on the topography and a few buildings. The track that's in place provides me with all I need to form the cotours of the terrain. I've no idea how fast (or slow) the modeling of the topography will be, but I'm going to take my time and try to get it right - first time.

The mainline (avoiding line) is level with Wiltsbury station (ticket office) except for the incline and decline for the rail/road bridge. Remember, the base of the station roof is about the height of the rails that run through the station. After the decline of the avoiding line, it remains level through much of the tunnel, only beginning a gradual rise as the track exits the tunnel in the upper right. When I was standing on the platform in Westbury, I observed an express passenger train on the avoiding line, just slightly below my line of vision. At the point where I saw it, the train was on the bridge descent before leveling off about midway before passing under the Salisbury line. I'll need the entire bottom of the layout for that descent, so moving my Salisbury line to the left edge of the board was a good move.

More later today - with a picture of my locomotives on the track.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 19, 2018, 04:25:50 PM
One thing you might just wish to consider at this stage.  From your excellent photographs I can see one pair of power feeds to the tracks (the blue/white wires).  For a layout this size, it could be a good idea to put in a few more power feeds where possible.  Another pair at the far end, for example.  This will reduce the power drop as the electricity makes its way through a lot of 'Unijoiners'.  My Sandrock layout (mostly AT&SF) is 13"x3" (plus a few sidings on a right angle) and it benefitted greatly from additional power feeds.  Before I fitted them, one could see a train slowing down the further it got from the power feeds and then speeding up as it came round the oval and got closer again!

John

John, thanks for a very useful, and welcome, contribution. I've been thinking about this issue for a while and wondering what I will need to do. I know nothing about wiring, so I will need a lot of help at the appropriate time. I'll get back to you in due course, as I'm not doing any of the wiring at this stage. The next step is to build my topography and a few buildings. I've no way to know how long that will take, but I expect it could be a few weeks. I've not done anything like this since the 70s, and then it was a simple 00 layout.

Incidentally, the Kato feeder is a 62 mm straight, so I have to decide on the placement of the feeders before I re-lay the track after building my terrain. The 62 mm feeder fits into the Kato metrics that I understand (there's much that I don't understand) - 62, 124, 248 mm straights. So I'll be able to fit a feeder into almost any position on the board.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 19, 2018, 04:37:41 PM
You guys have said it for me :P

I know the problem! :) How do I fix it? As everyone will know, I presume, removing one piece of set track requires removing countless others. But, I'm convinced that I need to do it.  So, before the track is laid down permanently, I'll find a fix. What I do need to know is, how much space is recommended between the edge of the board and the rail?  I've read 2.5 inches and mine is approximately 1 inch top and bottom and two inches on the sides.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 19, 2018, 04:45:11 PM
I too worry about you being able to reach the far tracks easily, though.
[/quote]

Bealman,

You're right, of course. It would be much better to be able to reach over rather than walk around. I'm a compositional freak, I guess - I want everything in front of me. Working something like a U or inside a well has no appeal for me. The only way to satisfy my need is to have a rectangle. I guess it's more like a painting; something I can relate to after a lifetime of collecting art.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 19, 2018, 07:36:20 PM
You guys have said it for me :P

I know the problem! :) How do I fix it? As everyone will know, I presume, removing one piece of set track requires removing countless others. But, I'm convinced that I need to do it.  So, before the track is laid down permanently, I'll find a fix. What I do need to know is, how much space is recommended between the edge of the board and the rail?  I've read 2.5 inches and mine is approximately 1 inch top and bottom and two inches on the sides.

Leon

I stand corrected! And, I corrected myself. :) I was able to find 1.5 inches for the bottom and top of the layout by removing two adjacent pieces of track - and without affecting any other part of the track plan. While doing that, I went back to the tight curve to the lefthand bottom of the layout to make more headshunt room. This will be checked out when I move on to the third phase of track laying - maybe next Spring?

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Train Waiting on July 19, 2018, 07:53:11 PM
One thing you might just wish to consider at this stage.  From your excellent photographs I can see one pair of power feeds to the tracks (the blue/white wires).  For a layout this size, it could be a good idea to put in a few more power feeds where possible.  Another pair at the far end, for example.  This will reduce the power drop as the electricity makes its way through a lot of 'Unijoiners'.  My Sandrock layout (mostly AT&SF) is 13"x3" (plus a few sidings on a right angle) and it benefitted greatly from additional power feeds.  Before I fitted them, one could see a train slowing down the further it got from the power feeds and then speeding up as it came round the oval and got closer again!

John

John, thanks for a very useful, and welcome, contribution. I've been thinking about this issue for a while and wondering what I will need to do. I know nothing about wiring, so I will need a lot of help at the appropriate time. I'll get back to you in due course, as I'm not doing any of the wiring at this stage. The next step is to build my topography and a few buildings. I've no way to know how long that will take, but I expect it could be a few weeks. I've not done anything like this since the 70s, and then it was a simple 00 layout.

Incidentally, the Kato feeder is a 62 mm straight, so I have to decide on the placement of the feeders before I re-lay the track after building my terrain. The 62 mm feeder fits into the Kato metrics that I understand (there's much that I don't understand) - 62, 124, 248 mm straights. So I'll be able to fit a feeder into almost any position on the board.

Leon

Many thanks, Leon.

When you are ready, please just ask.

There is another way to supply power to Kato 'Unitrack' using the power unijoiners.  These are very good, but would require you to drill through the baseboard or carve the foam.  The 62mm power feed straights avoid all this trouble.  I understand that, in Japan, the track is often laid on the floor and then dismantled after use, so the 'Unitrack' system is designed to be used on a flat surface if desired.  A true table-top railway!

Best wishes for your super layout.

John
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: dannyboy on July 19, 2018, 08:01:55 PM
If you fancy a bit of soldering Leon, this -
http://www.fiferhobby.com/how-to-make-your-own-kato-uni-joiner-power-feeders/ (http://www.fiferhobby.com/how-to-make-your-own-kato-uni-joiner-power-feeders/)
shows you how to make your own power feeeds. Having said that, I have not used it as my soldering skills are not too clever and, to be honest, it is a lot easier clipping in a power feed track.

Another good tip from Fifer and there are loads more! :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 19, 2018, 08:17:56 PM
If you fancy a bit of soldering Leon, this -
[url]http://www.fiferhobby.com/how-to-make-your-own-kato-uni-joiner-power-feeders/[/url] ([url]http://www.fiferhobby.com/how-to-make-your-own-kato-uni-joiner-power-feeders/[/url])
shows you how to make your own power feeeds. Having said that, I have not used it as my soldering skills are not too clever and, to be honest, it is a lot easier clipping in a power feed track.

Another good tip from Fifer and there are loads more! :thumbsup:

David, I saw that link, but when it said solder I exited pretty quickly. The main reason I chose Kato was to avoid soldering! Why would I want to solder Kato unijoiners - or anything else?  :) Purists won't appreciate my approach, but for me it's the "course of least resistance". I like shared links, though. So, keep them coming. Some will contain information that I'm looking for - or should be looking for.

Leon

Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 19, 2018, 08:22:49 PM
There is another way to supply power to Kato 'Unitrack' using the power unijoiners.

John, I think I've added power unijoiners to my watch list on eBay. The power feeders will probably suffice, but it's always good to know there's another way. Thanks for the tip!

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: dannyboy on July 19, 2018, 09:23:18 PM
when it said solder I exited pretty quickly. The main reason I chose Kato was to avoid soldering!

A man after my own heart!  :thumbsup: Plus, it does tend to defeat the purpose of using 'plug and play' Unitrack! Having just about completed all the track wiring on my layout, plus some other 'electrickery', I don't think I have used one bit of solder. All the wiring connections are done using the old fashioned 'choc blocks' - having tried some of the more updated contraptions, I have reverted to the 'choc blocks'.  :beers:
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Newportnobby on July 19, 2018, 10:20:17 PM
You guys have said it for me :P

I know the problem! :) How do I fix it? As everyone will know, I presume, removing one piece of set track requires removing countless others. But, I'm convinced that I need to do it.  So, before the track is laid down permanently, I'll find a fix. What I do need to know is, how much space is recommended between the edge of the board and the rail?  I've read 2.5 inches and mine is approximately 1 inch top and bottom and two inches on the sides.

Leon

I stand corrected! And, I corrected myself. :) I was able to find 1.5 inches for the bottom and top of the layout by removing two adjacent pieces of track - and without affecting any other part of the track plan. While doing that, I went back to the tight curve to the lefthand bottom of the layout to make more headshunt room. This will be checked out when I move on to the third phase of track laying - maybe next Spring?

Leon

Not strictly necessary to alter the track plan, Leon :no:
'Proper' perspex can be pretty expensive but there is a plastic equivalent in the UK called 'Liteglaze' which (with care as it can shatter quite easily) can be cut and drilled and fitted to the baseboard sides. This would prevent your prized stock plummeting to the floor and yet still be see-through. Maybe you have it or something like over there?
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 20, 2018, 12:59:08 AM
Not strictly necessary to alter the track plan, Leon :no:
'Proper' perspex can be pretty expensive but there is a plastic equivalent in the UK called 'Liteglaze' which (with care as it can shatter quite easily) can be cut and drilled and fitted to the baseboard sides. This would prevent your prized stock plummeting to the floor and yet still be see-through. Maybe you have it or something like over there?

Mick, I've been thinking about something for the baseboard sides, but I still will be happier with a little more space around the periphery without sacrificing much. I certainly don't want to do much at this point, however. I'll make it better, hopefully when I lay the track permanently. I've already altered the plan in AnyRail and don't see that I've impacted anything significantly.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 20, 2018, 01:19:32 AM
The picture below was taken after my locomotive testing, today. I took a few pictures, but without a tripod the result was not good. You get a glimpse of what I'll be starting with. Six locos in all, with two out of group - a Caledonian and a Southern.

I'm REALLY pleased with the Graham Farish 372-030 Castle Class 6044 'Earl of Dunraven' GWR Lined Green - as I was when I ran it a few weeks ago. It's smooth at all speeds, and runs at a snails pace on the slow end. Virtually noiseless. I can't be as complimentary about the others, though. One or two had some strong points, but all had some glaring weaknesses. Two of them were sold as new, but I'm convinced they had been on the shelf for years. I probably need to pause and take a lesson on lubrication, but that can wait for a while as they're going back into their boxes for a few weeks.

I had my first exposure to something I've read about on the forum. It seems that every locomotive deals with ponts somewhat differently. Even the Earl had his problem. He ran impecably until I reversed over one of the double points. Every time I tried it derailed. The bogie seemed to be the first wheels to derail. There's a long straight before the point, so there must be something in the point snagging the boggie wheels. Maybe something needs to be filed down, but that's something else I'll need to learn about before proceeding. Some of the goods wagons also derailed at the same point, but the coaches passed through without even a wobble.

By the way, the derailment was at the top center of the layout, requiring me to walk around to the back for re-railing. :) Dont say "I told you so"!

(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/67/6724-200718011134.jpeg)
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Train Waiting on July 20, 2018, 09:00:06 AM
Hello Leon

Congratulations on getting trains running on your super layout.

Points can be tricky things, both on model and full-size railways.  The 'double points' at top rear centre that you mention looks like a Kato Scissors Crossover.  Kato 'Unitrack' is a brilliant system and has given me no difficulty whatsoever with Kato models.  I have found, through experience, that other makes can have niggles.  Especially with steam locomotives.  I assume that this situation arises because the other manufacturers do not work to Kato's standards and tolerences.

The Kato #4 turnouts have well-known difficulties (NPN of this Forum has an excellent thread detailing his careful testing of these).  I have found occasional difficulties with the #6 as well, with certain steam locomotives in particular circumstances, and, after a bit of trial and error, made a modification that has helped greatly.  In my simplistic view, the Scissors Crossover is four #6 turnouts in one impressive unit.

When your lovely 'Castle' derailed, was she running through the points in a straight line or was she taking the curved route (diverging road in UK jargon)?

With best wishes.

John
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Newportnobby on July 20, 2018, 10:00:08 AM

The Kato #4 turnouts have well-known difficulties (NPN of this Forum has an excellent thread detailing his careful testing of these).  I have found occasional difficulties with the #6 as well, with certain steam locomotives in particular circumstances, and, after a bit of trial and error, made a modification that has helped greatly.


@Train Waiting (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=6222)
Thanks for the acknowledgment, John. Maybe in a separate topic could you explain your modification to #6 points as it will maybe help others and I have a thirst for knowledge which helps fellow members.
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Train Waiting on July 20, 2018, 03:18:51 PM
Many thanks, Mick.  The modification is covered in amongst my lengthy ramblings in 'A Table-Top Railway in British 'N' Gauge' thread.  Page 32.

http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=38281.msg498698#msg498698 (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=38281.msg498698#msg498698)

Please let me know if you would like the main points (sorry, that's awful)  :-[ extracted and posted somewhere else or if this reference is sufficient.  By the way, after a bit of time and a lot of running, the modification appears to be working.

Toodle-oo.

John
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 20, 2018, 03:31:31 PM
The Kato #4 turnouts have well-known difficulties (NPN of this Forum has an excellent thread detailing his careful testing of these).  I have found occasional difficulties with the #6 as well, with certain steam locomotives in particular circumstances, and, after a bit of trial and error, made a modification that has helped greatly.  In my simplistic view, the Scissors Crossover is four #6 turnouts in one impressive unit.

When your lovely 'Castle' derailed, was she running through the points in a straight line or was she taking the curved route (diverging road in UK jargon)?
John, I was reversing through the points after 372 mm of straight track. Similarly, the wagons derailed at the same bit in reverse. Would that suggest something about the wheels? I've not learned the parts of points, yet, but when I run my finger over the point in the direction the train was running, I feel a sharp edge.

I've had that discussion about the #4 points, but I can't model my sidings on the lower side of the layout without using them. I've not purchases any, yet, hoping to keep the number to a minimum. I mentioned before that I've bought track/points from many sources and there are definitely differences in "new" stock. Some (like a couple of my locos) have been in their packaging for years, I think. There is definitely a good case for buying the latest and greatest, if you can!

My greatest concern about my track is the 124 mm right turnout on the right side. I don't have electricity for the inner tracks, yet, but tried moving my Earl by hand and it didn't look good making the turn. Fortunately, it's a mainliner, so won't be stopping at the station. I think only locos without bogies will enter the station. I tried my autocoach through that point and it seemed to have no problem. It will be pulled/pushed by the 14xx.

While I have the floor, let me say that I bought some additional real estate to move my track away from the edge of the layout. Maybe not far enough, but it is an improvement. These last couple of days of loco/track trials have emphasized an issue I'd completely ignorned, however. Where am I going to place my controllers? I'll have three and I've only space for one on the board (lower right corner). I've seen what some others have done - essentially, extensions to the board. I'll need to study the alternatives.

Leon

Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 20, 2018, 05:51:19 PM
When you are ready, please just ask.

There is another way to supply power to Kato 'Unitrack' using the power unijoiners.  These are very good, but would require you to drill through the baseboard or carve the foam.  The 62mm power feed straights avoid all this trouble.


John, I'm ready sooner than I expected! Today, I put power to the inner oval (three double crossovers). I knew that there would be special considerations because of the insulators in the crossover points, but with the points set for through running on the inner oval I expected to have power. I didn't!

In your mention of the power unijoiners you said that the 62 mm power feed straights would avoid the trouble of drilling through the baseboard. I'm not sure what you had in mind, as I've always intended to drill and put the feeder wires under the baseboard. What am I missing? Did you have in mind that they could be left on top of the board and concealed with ballast and ground cover?

No rush to respond, for I'm awaiting the delivery of more track before I'll be making changes to the track plan, but I'm curious. I've decided to make all the corrections necessary so that I can mark the board before lifting the track to build the topography. I'll not be dropping the wiring until all the topography is completed, for most of the points will be on board added for elevation.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Train Waiting on July 20, 2018, 06:31:33 PM
Hello Leon


(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/67/6222-200718182250.jpeg) (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=67600)

Sorry, I have taken shocking liberties with one of your splendid photographs.

Is the 'inner oval' the one I have marked with a white arrow?

If it is the power feed (orange arrow) is not able to supply power because the turnout (very green dot) is set against the route the power feed is on.

One of the good things about Kato 'Unitrack' is that allows for wiring on the surface of the baseboard if that appeals.  No drilling of holes and no wiring below the baseboard!  The wires can be disguised by scenic features.

But if you are intending to drill holes for the wires for power and turnout operation, the 'power unijoiners' become a great choice as you can feed power any place you want that has a track joint.  This reduces the number of fiddly little track pieces that one uses and, therefore, reduces the number of joints.

It's good to have a choice...

Hope this helps.

Best wishes.

John
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 20, 2018, 06:50:01 PM
Is the 'inner oval' the one I have marked with a white arrow?

If it is the power feed (orange arrow) is not able to supply power because the turnout (very green dot) is set against the route the power feed is on.

One of the good things about Kato 'Unitrack' is that allows for wiring on the surface of the baseboard if that appeals.  No drilling of holes and no wiring below the baseboard!  The wires can be disguised by scenic features.

But if you are intending to drill holes for the wires for power and turnout operation, the 'power unijoiners' become a great choice as you can feed power any place you want that has a track joint.  This reduces the number of fiddly little track pieces that one uses and, therefore, reduces the number of joints.

John, you did well! The inner oval is as you assumed, but I changed the power feed. The feeder was just before the right hand turn. The points were all set for the train to travel that inner oval - through the two double crossovers. The insulators in the double crossover at the top didn't affect running on the outer oval, so I don't understand why there was no power on the inner oval, after I placed the feeder before the right hand point.

Thanks for the input re: drilling vs disguising wires. I'll be looking closely at that alternative.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 21, 2018, 01:29:59 AM
Sometimes I'm slow and other times I'm stupid! Today I was both!!! My inner oval wasn't getting electricity because the second double crossover, in the station, was switched. These points have insulators so when switched the current is broken. So, my presumption is that I must have an electrical feed on either side of the crossover points. My knowledge of electricity is extremely limited, but if the logic I'm applying now is correct how can locos run into sidings? Must there be a feeder at the end of each spur? I'll be grateful if someone will enlighten me - and while you're at it, direct me to a good source for basic layout electrical wiring.  Thanks!

I've been running my Prairie Tank, today. It sounds more like a model airplane than a locomotive! It's a Graham Farish 371-981. Please tell me it's OLD. And, does anyone have an opinion as to the relationship of the noise to a need for lubrication!

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: keerout on July 21, 2018, 02:15:45 AM
Hi Leon,
Try this: http://www.brian-lambert.co.uk/ (http://www.brian-lambert.co.uk/)
Lots of information, from very simple to Very Complicated, so go slowly....
he also got a splendit book out, works even better (for me) than the web site
Happy modelling!
Gerard
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: daveg on July 21, 2018, 06:09:34 AM
Can certainly endorse the book recommendation by @keerout (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=596).

From another post you asked about installing the station/platform. May I suggest you build your station kit soon? Somehow that being in place adds to the feeling of 'getting somewhere' with the build! It also means you can double check that you have the correct platform width as you run a train through.

Metcalfe kits are pretty good and can be lit if you remember to carefully paint the insides with a dark colour before building. That stops any light bleed. White corners showing at the folds can be hidden by either painting or using a sharp crayon of the correct colour. I use either a tiny brush or watercolour pencil and work very slowly!

HTH.  :)

Look forward to seeing your layout.

Dave G

 
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: njee20 on July 21, 2018, 06:29:54 AM
Re: feeds, yes you need one in each loop. You can add them to sidings if you want locos to be able to move when the points are set against them. If youíre content with only moving stock when the points are set into the siding you neednít do anything.

The general wisdom with feeds (or Ďdroppersí) is to add as many as possible, particularly on bigger layouts. A lot of people advocate one on each piece of track. I think thatís a bit excessive, but Iíd have more than 2. If Unitrack requires the use of a special feeder piece then thatís harder to implement obviously.
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Innovationgame on July 21, 2018, 06:51:52 AM
I've been running my Prairie Tank, today. It sounds more like a model airplane than a locomotive! It's a Graham Farish 371-981. Please tell me it's OLD. And, does anyone have an opinion as to the relationship of the noise to a need for lubrication!

Leon
If your're running DC, it's almost certainly gear noise.  A (tiny) drop of Dapol oil on the gears, followed by some running in might help.  If you're running DCC the same applies but, before that, consider the decoder.  Some decoders cause quite a loud noise during slow running because of rapid switching.  Essentially a DCC decoders achieves speed reductions by slicing up the power to the motor.  Some decoders are noisier than others.
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: weave on July 21, 2018, 08:12:25 AM
Hi Leon,

Regarding the sidings, njee20 is right in that the electricity will flow into the siding when switched that way and cut off when switched back to the loop.

Can't remember your track plan but if you had another siding coming off the first siding then you could have another feed just before that point so a loco could reverse out of one and go back down the other without obstructing the loop line.

On mine, which is Kato, at the end of the single siding there is a track feed and a little bit more track which has the track joiners replaced with insulated joiners so that the loco can come in with a train, stop and uncouple.

You then stop the electricity going to that end section with some sort of toggle switch. I haven't got round to that yet so I just pull the wire out of the 3-way power feed near the controller and then you bring another loco in, using the loop power, to take the train out again. Once it's gone, reconnect (or turn toggle switch) and the other loco can move out and wait in the siding for the mainline to clear.

Hope that's not too simple, correct in other's minds (I'm newish too) and makes sense  :worried:

Cheers weave  :beers:
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Newportnobby on July 21, 2018, 09:01:10 AM
Hi Leon,
To create dead sections in sidings/loops, especially in a loco shed where you'll want to move one loco without others on the same track moving, I use latchable (not momentary) on/off push button switches which you can locate on a control panel or other handy place. Similar to these but if you have an electrical wholesaler you may find them cheaper..........

https://www.ebay.com/itm/IM-7mm-Black-Locking-Latching-OFF-ON-Push-Button-Car-Boat-Switch-10pcs-Abundan-/222748105172 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/IM-7mm-Black-Locking-Latching-OFF-ON-Push-Button-Car-Boat-Switch-10pcs-Abundan-/222748105172)
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Train Waiting on July 21, 2018, 09:25:05 AM
Sometimes I'm slow and other times I'm stupid! Today I was both!!! My inner oval wasn't getting electricity because the second double crossover, in the station, was switched. These points have insulators so when switched the current is broken. So, my presumption is that I must have an electrical feed on either side of the crossover points. My knowledge of electricity is extremely limited, but if the logic I'm applying now is correct how can locos run into sidings?


Hello Leon

I'm glad you have solved the problem.  I was looking at your track plan to see possible causes but it's great that you have solved it yourself.

The turnouts for Kato 'Unitrack' are power-routing.* That means you do not need a separate feed for each siding.  Set the turnout for the siding and it becomes live.  Set it for the main line and the siding becomes dead.  All very easy.

The reason for more than one feed on a big layout like yours is what is often called 'voltage drop'.  Model railway track, especially with a lot of joins, has a greater resistance than copper wire.  When the train gets further away from the feed, it runs slower.  The solution to this is several track feeds.  Modellers using DCC tend to use lots of feeds for a slightly different reason.  You are on DC so you can have fairly simple wiring.

There can be times when you want a power feed that is only live some of the time.  Lets call these 'switched feeds'.  Our good friend Chris @weave (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=735) helpfully mentions this.  There are ways to achieve this.  The simplest is a little on/off switch on one of the wires to the power feed (we can discuss which one later).  My Sandrock layout needed two switched feeds which worked in conjunction with the setting of two turnouts.  My expensive solution to give automatic switching was a couple of spare Kato #4 turnouts wired to operate in conjunction with the two relevant turnouts on the layout.  The spare #4 turnouts were wired to act as a simple on/off switch in my case, but could  be wired to direct power to one or other of the circuits if desired.

Hope this helps.

John

* On some Kato turnouts there is a little switch on the underside that switches on or off the power-routing feature.
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 21, 2018, 07:02:05 PM

Dave, thanks for the good advice and endorsement of the book previously recommended. I was leaning toward pausing to build the station, and now I'm certain I'll do that before going forward. I do have some templates to prepare before I lift the temporary track, but I'll build the station and at least one platform before proceeding with the topography. I've a Metcalfe station kit, but my platform kit is Peco. I'll maybe use the Peco kit at Biss River and buy a couple Metcalfe kits for Wiltsbury. I hadn't thought about lighting the station, but will consider painting the inside. When I bought my first Metcalfe kit in Edinburgh, the shop attendant pointed out the need to color the edges so I've already bought watercolor pencils.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 21, 2018, 07:04:37 PM
Re: feeds, yes you need one in each loop. You can add them to sidings if you want locos to be able to move when the points are set against them. If youíre content with only moving stock when the points are set into the siding you neednít do anything.

The general wisdom with feeds (or Ďdroppersí) is to add as many as possible, particularly on bigger layouts. A lot of people advocate one on each piece of track. I think thatís a bit excessive, but Iíd have more than 2. If Unitrack requires the use of a special feeder piece then thatís harder to implement obviously.

Njee, thanks so much for the help!

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 21, 2018, 07:06:44 PM
Hi Leon,

Regarding the sidings, njee20 is right in that the electricity will flow into the siding when switched that way and cut off when switched back to the loop.

Can't remember your track plan but if you had another siding coming off the first siding then you could have another feed just before that point so a loco could reverse out of one and go back down the other without obstructing the loop line.

On mine, which is Kato, at the end of the single siding there is a track feed and a little bit more track which has the track joiners replaced with insulated joiners so that the loco can come in with a train, stop and uncouple.

You then stop the electricity going to that end section with some sort of toggle switch. I haven't got round to that yet so I just pull the wire out of the 3-way power feed near the controller and then you bring another loco in, using the loop power, to take the train out again. Once it's gone, reconnect (or turn toggle switch) and the other loco can move out and wait in the siding for the mainline to clear.

Hope that's not too simple, correct in other's minds (I'm newish too) and makes sense  :worried:

Cheers weave  :beers:

I don't understand all of the advice, but it's greatly appreciated and I'll be returning to read it again as I go forwarad. Knowledge is cumulative, so I'll understand it as I learn more.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: port perran on July 21, 2018, 07:18:19 PM
Leon.
Apologies but I stay out of posting re electrics.
Others are MUCH more knowledgeable on that black art than me.
I go for the blindingly simple and it works so hope you manage to make it happen for you.
Good luck with the build.
Martin
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 21, 2018, 07:19:56 PM
If your're running DC, it's almost certainly gear noise.  A (tiny) drop of Dapol oil on the gears, followed by some running in might help.  If you're running DCC the same applies but, before that, consider the decoder.  Some decoders cause quite a loud noise during slow running because of rapid switching.  Essentially a DCC decoders achieves speed reductions by slicing up the power to the motor.  Some decoders are noisier than others.

Laurence, I'm putting the locomotives away for another day, but will try lubricating the Prairie when I bring it out the next time. Thanks for reinforcing an assumption. It's logical that the gears will dry out when a loco isn't run, and this one probably hasn't run in years. It looks great, and performs well, but sounds like a plane taking off when accelerating. Reading your thread, and many others, it's obvious that model railway manufacturers have achieved more with their exterior design and detail than with the mechanics. There could also be an issue with their quality control. My Prairie is only one of five that have some kind of mechanical problem. The sixth, the Earl of Dunraven is the only one that has run to my expectations. Therefore, I may be finished with buying from the secondary market. I'd rather pay Hatton's an extra 35-40% with the knowledge that I'll be getting value and/or the option to return the purchase. And, I'll not be buying many more.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: dannyboy on July 21, 2018, 07:23:03 PM
Sometimes I'm slow and other times I'm stupid! So,

Loosely translated, that means you are just like the rest of us!  ;D

my presumption is that I must have an electrical feed on either side of the crossover points.

The Kato crossover does need a feed on either side of the crossing, on each track. They do not need to be right next to the crossover, but they do need to be between the crossover and the next point on the line.

Bob Fifer shows exactly what I mean on one of his videos.  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 21, 2018, 07:23:41 PM
To create dead sections in sidings/loops, especially in a loco shed where you'll want to move one loco without others on the same track moving, I use latchable (not momentary) on/off push button switches which you can locate on a control panel or other handy place. Similar to these but if you have an electrical wholesaler you may find them cheaper..........
https://www.ebay.com/itm/IM-7mm-Black-Locking-Latching-OFF-ON-Push-Button-Car-Boat-Switch-10pcs-Abundan-/222748105172 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/IM-7mm-Black-Locking-Latching-OFF-ON-Push-Button-Car-Boat-Switch-10pcs-Abundan-/222748105172)

This is advice that I'll definitely use.Thanks!! Any advice for adding a control panel? As I stated, previously, I'd not given it any thought until I laid my outer rail and realized how little room I have in the corner.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 21, 2018, 07:35:21 PM
Sometimes I'm slow and other times I'm stupid! Today I was both!!! My inner oval wasn't getting electricity because the second double crossover, in the station, was switched. These points have insulators so when switched the current is broken. So, my presumption is that I must have an electrical feed on either side of the crossover points. My knowledge of electricity is extremely limited, but if the logic I'm applying now is correct how can locos run into sidings?

Hello Leon

I'm glad you have solved the problem.

John, I've been really gratified by the response from other Forum members to this issue. Alas, I'm still stupid. I haven't solved the problem! I can't get electricity to the inner oval (loop?). I'll check under the point (it's the only one of that kind I have) to see if there is a switch. I should have done it before responding to your message, but I'm only able to do one thing at a time - and right now is is my reading/writing time! :)

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 21, 2018, 07:37:26 PM
The Kato crossover does need a feed on either side of the crossing, on each track. They do not need to be right next to the crossover, but they do need to be between the crossover and the next point on the line.
Bob Fifer shows exactly what I mean on one of his videos.  :thumbsup:

I'll definitely check out the Fifer video. Thanks!

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 21, 2018, 08:17:07 PM

The turnouts for Kato 'Unitrack' are power-routing.* * On some Kato turnouts there is a little switch on the underside that switches on or off the power-routing feature.

John, the turnout in question DOES have the switch(s). There are two labled Curved Side and Straight Side. Each has a screw in one of two holes - the one labled Power Routing. The non-power routing hole is empty. Does the screw turn on the power or turn off the power? Since I'm not getting power to the track following the point, it appears to me that the screw needs to be moved to the empty hole labeled "Non-power Routing". I don't want to do that, though, until I've had your opinion of my presumption. That seems to be the only thing I can change, however.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: dannyboy on July 21, 2018, 08:22:31 PM
In that case Leon, they are number 4 points. There is a thread on the forum regarding changing the screw, BUT, I believe the screw is in the wrong hole relative to the instructions. If you do not come across the thread, I will find it for you a bit later tonight.
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: dannyboy on July 21, 2018, 08:32:55 PM
Another thought - if you put  a power connecting piece on the through route and the diverging route after the actual point, it does not matter which way the point is thrown, both routes will have power.
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 21, 2018, 09:21:43 PM
In that case Leon, they are number 4 points. There is a thread on the forum regarding changing the screw, BUT, I believe the screw is in the wrong hole relative to the instructions. If you do not come across the thread, I will find it for you a bit later tonight.

David,

It was easier to change the screws than to search for the thread! :) I did that, and it appears all is well. Thanks to John for the original tip, and your remarks which gave me the confidence to go ahead and change the screws. I will need to add power feeds to each side of the double crossovers, however. The loco stopped dead in the middle of the first crossover.

Leon

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Newportnobby on July 21, 2018, 09:44:44 PM
Any advice for adding a control panel?


Not sure I'm the right person to ask as I am using stud and probe operation of Seep point motors and knocked up a cheap and cheerful panel as here.............

http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=22084.msg507527#msg507527 (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=22084.msg507527#msg507527)

I'm guessing here but maybe you just need an 'L' shape where the base of the 'L' supports your controller(s) and the vertical of the 'L' could have your Kato point switches attached to it. The 'L' shape could be attached to the side of your baseboard with what are referred to in the UK as 'Glass Plate - Slotted'...........

https://www.diy.com/departments/b-q-brass-effect-carbon-steel-mirror-flush-mount-l-30mm-pack-of-2/198110_BQ.prd (https://www.diy.com/departments/b-q-brass-effect-carbon-steel-mirror-flush-mount-l-30mm-pack-of-2/198110_BQ.prd)

Maybe someone using Kato track has something better..................
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 21, 2018, 09:52:18 PM
Any advice for adding a control panel?


Not sure I'm the right person to ask as I am using stud and probe operation of Seep point motors and knocked up a cheap and cheerful panel as here.............

[url]http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=22084.msg507527#msg507527[/url] ([url]http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=22084.msg507527#msg507527[/url])

I'm guessing here but maybe you just need an 'L' shape where the base of the 'L' supports your controller(s) and the vertical of the 'L' could have your Kato point switches attached to it. The 'L' shape could be attached to the side of your baseboard with what are referred to in the UK as 'Glass Plate - Slotted'...........

[url]https://www.diy.com/departments/b-q-brass-effect-carbon-steel-mirror-flush-mount-l-30mm-pack-of-2/198110_BQ.prd[/url] ([url]https://www.diy.com/departments/b-q-brass-effect-carbon-steel-mirror-flush-mount-l-30mm-pack-of-2/198110_BQ.prd[/url])

Maybe someone using Kato track has something better..................


I think your suggestion is both simple and effective. If placed on the lower right side of my frame, I could access it from my computer chair. Nothing like making things convenient. Thanks, Mick!

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 22, 2018, 03:34:35 AM
A few more questions before calling it a night. How critical is input voltage from the transformer? My Kato power pack (22-014) came with a Kato transformer that is 120V
AC input and 15 V AC output. I've bought another Kato power pack (different model - 22018 Power Pack Standard SX AC) and it did not come with the  transformer. It's not clear to me what I need, and I can't find an American source selling the Kato transformer. The output of the Kato transformer offered by Japanese sellers is 12V so I'm wondering why the difference.

Does anyone have experience with Scalescenes card kits?

After I receive the track that's on order, I'll make a few ajustments in the layout before lifting the track for topographical work (and building my station). I'm finished with testing the track plan and except for the tight turn into the station from the right down line, I'm satisfied. That tight turn can't be remediated without major alterations that would change the layout beyoond recognition. I'm grateful to all who have helped me through this first stage and I'll post a new image of the layout plan by the middle of next week. I'm really looking forward to building the terrain and my mind is focused on proceeding with that task. I've been looking at Woodland Scenics videos and will probably borrow some of their methods and use some of their products. Woodland Scenics is American, and thus probably the least expensive for me, however, they may not be the best so I'd be pleased to have some comments from users of other sources.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: dannyboy on July 22, 2018, 04:14:47 AM
I started reading your post Leon and thought "Whoa, that's not right", then I remembered you were in the USA  :doh:. If I remember correctly, 120v is the American supply, whereas here in Ireland and the UK it is 240v.  By pure coincidence, I had cause to check the output from a spare Kato power pack yesterday and the maximum output is just about 15v DC. I did that because my spare Bachmann power pack was throwing out 20v DC, which I am sure can not be correct - hopefully somebody on the forum will answer another post I have regarding this.  I have never used a Scalescenes kit so can not help you there - I am a big fan of the Metcalfe kits. :beers:
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Bealman on July 22, 2018, 04:30:47 AM
Woodland Scenics products are excellent, and the preferred choice for many modellers, myself included. They are on the pricey side however (at least where I live).
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: daveg on July 22, 2018, 07:41:59 AM
I have used a lot of WS ground cover materials and found them good. Nice and fine and appear to be UV resistant although I do have the layout in permanent shade.

To save some cash you don't need to use their adhesive for the scatter as a decent quality PVA from a hardware store works just as well. Lots of scenic hints and tips here: http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?board=11.0 (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?board=11.0)

Not tried their water products but there's plenty of info and 'how to' on YouTube.

I've recently been given a static grass gizmo and some materials which will be a first for me. The applicator, various makes are available, are quite expensive here although clever folk have built their own.

Hope you get your electrical questions answered - I'm no help there!

Looking forward to your next update.

Dave G
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Bealman on July 22, 2018, 07:54:37 AM
Webbo used WS realistic water on his layout and having seen it in person, I can say it looks great.

And as Dave says, PVA works fine. No need for the WS stuff.  :beers:
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Newportnobby on July 22, 2018, 09:42:47 AM
I found WS Scenic Cement to be very disappointing and PVA glue to be much better. Likewise, should you ever consider it, I don't like WS Track Cleaner as it seems to leave a residue. Use IPA.
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Bealman on July 22, 2018, 09:49:02 AM
Yeah, I always think that they added that glue, track cleaner, etc. to the range as an afterthought as it would make money.

However the ground foam, foliage and general scenic products are excellent.
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 22, 2018, 08:00:13 PM
First things first, and today that was the Open! Now, to plan my next move, having put away the locomotives for another day.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: port perran on July 22, 2018, 08:25:52 PM
I too find PVA suitable for most things and it works well with Woodland Scenic items.
I have graduated to using static grass over the lastfew months and would thoroughly recommend it.
And yes, IPA for track cleaning.
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 22, 2018, 08:48:09 PM
I too find PVA suitable for most things and it works well with Woodland Scenic items.
I have graduated to using static grass over the lastfew months and would thoroughly recommend it.
And yes, IPA for track cleaning.


Duh! What is IPA?

I've been searching for a girder road bridge to span the tracks on the right side of my layout, but nobody seems to be making one. The closest I can find is a double track bridge that I could use, I suppose - https://www.ebay.com/itm/Tomix-3067-Double-Track-Girder-Bridge-II-w-2-Concrete-Piers-Blue-N-scale/222896355532?_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20180105095853%26meid%3Ddc6703e3ae3b406e94d7d7060daa79fb%26pid%3D100903%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D20%26sd%3D222896355532%26itm%3D222896355532&_trksid=p2509164.c100903.m5276. (https://www.ebay.com/itm/Tomix-3067-Double-Track-Girder-Bridge-II-w-2-Concrete-Piers-Blue-N-scale/222896355532?_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20180105095853%26meid%3Ddc6703e3ae3b406e94d7d7060daa79fb%26pid%3D100903%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D20%26sd%3D222896355532%26itm%3D222896355532&_trksid=p2509164.c100903.m5276.) Any comments?

This is the actual bridge -

(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/67/6724-220718205340.jpeg)

The railroad bridge at the bottom right of my layout currently has a Kato two track girder bridge that looks more like the one in the above picture, and the Tomix bridge looks more like the real bridge across station road -

(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/67/6724-220718205624.jpeg)

I guess I could change them around.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: port perran on July 22, 2018, 08:53:33 PM
IPA is Isopropyl Alcohol (if Iíve spelled it correctly).
As for the bridge, your link isnít working but do you mean the bridge that spans the track to the north of Westbury station?
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: daveg on July 22, 2018, 08:55:32 PM
IPA = https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isopropyl_alcohol  :)

Getting a page error on the first link so can't offer any thoughts on what you may be wanting.

Dave G

Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 22, 2018, 09:01:31 PM
Just altered my picture links, and yes, the first bridge mentioned is the one north of the station. My photo of the bridge is from one of the platforms in the station.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 22, 2018, 09:03:54 PM
Do you think Scottish Whiskey would work as well as IPA? :) I already have that in the house, and I don't drink it anymore, *sigh*

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: dannyboy on July 22, 2018, 09:06:15 PM
I already have that in the house, and I don't drink it anymore, *sigh*


A pity you live on the other side of the pond.  :(. What I mean is, I could have come along to look at your layout - honest! :)
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: port perran on July 22, 2018, 09:16:09 PM
Hi Leon.
Peco platform edging would be perfect for the overbridge.
I use it to make similar over bridges. Simply lay a strip of card between two sections of the edging and paint the whole thing appropriately.
I can send you some pictures if you wish.
https://www.track-shack.com/acatalog/Peco-Lineside-NB-27-N-Scale-Platform-Edging-Kit-Concrete-type-Peco-Lineside-NB-27.html?gclid=CjwKCAjw1tDaBRAMEiwA0rYbSFdlY2GbS8Q7hkPwCeqVQKCzdFjPEVt3SrCuLifiB3m6vU_abxZlHBoCjt8QAvD_BwE (https://www.track-shack.com/acatalog/Peco-Lineside-NB-27-N-Scale-Platform-Edging-Kit-Concrete-type-Peco-Lineside-NB-27.html?gclid=CjwKCAjw1tDaBRAMEiwA0rYbSFdlY2GbS8Q7hkPwCeqVQKCzdFjPEVt3SrCuLifiB3m6vU_abxZlHBoCjt8QAvD_BwE)
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Newportnobby on July 22, 2018, 09:34:41 PM
Do you think Scottish Whiskey would work as well as IPA?

Leon

Just a small whiskey lesson. The Irish spell it with an 'e' and the Scots without ;)
Can you not sell it and use the proceeds for the layout?
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: weave on July 22, 2018, 10:09:21 PM
Hi Leon,

Would Kato 20-452 be any good?....

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Kato-20-452-Single-Girder-Bridge/dp/B0003K1LLO (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Kato-20-452-Single-Girder-Bridge/dp/B0003K1LLO)

Available in different colours and cover the track with tarmac  :D (plasticard or similar)

Cheers weave  :beers:
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 23, 2018, 01:10:47 AM
Hi Leon,

Would Kato 20-452 be any good?....

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Kato-20-452-Single-Girder-Bridge/dp/B0003K1LLO (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Kato-20-452-Single-Girder-Bridge/dp/B0003K1LLO)

Available in different colours and cover the track with tarmac  :D (plasticard or similar)

Cheers weave  :beers:

Weave, that's one of the bridges I was referring to in my post; the one that currently is taking the avoiding line over the Station Road past the Railway Inn. Except, mine is two tracks. I can move it to the crossing of the station lines, however, and use something else for the avoiding line crossing. I believe the track is easily removable by removing one or more screws.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 23, 2018, 01:15:15 AM
Do you think Scottish Whiskey would work as well as IPA?

Leon
Just a small whiskey lesson. The Irish spell it with an 'e' and the Scots without ;)
Can you not sell it and use the proceeds for the layout?
I'm not a very good speller, but used to be a good drinker! I've a bottle of eight year old (or is it 12?) malt that's been in my cupboard for about 30 years. It was a special gift that we kept for a special day. Too bad it doesn't age in the bottle!

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 23, 2018, 01:21:13 AM
Hi Leon.
Peco platform edging would be perfect for the overbridge.
I use it to make similar over bridges. Simply lay a strip of card between two sections of the edging and paint the whole thing appropriately.
I can send you some pictures if you wish.
https://www.track-shack.com/acatalog/Peco-Lineside-NB-27-N-Scale-Platform-Edging-Kit-Concrete-type-Peco-Lineside-NB-27.html?gclid=CjwKCAjw1tDaBRAMEiwA0rYbSFdlY2GbS8Q7hkPwCeqVQKCzdFjPEVt3SrCuLifiB3m6vU_abxZlHBoCjt8QAvD_BwE (https://www.track-shack.com/acatalog/Peco-Lineside-NB-27-N-Scale-Platform-Edging-Kit-Concrete-type-Peco-Lineside-NB-27.html?gclid=CjwKCAjw1tDaBRAMEiwA0rYbSFdlY2GbS8Q7hkPwCeqVQKCzdFjPEVt3SrCuLifiB3m6vU_abxZlHBoCjt8QAvD_BwE)

I bought one of those kits when I was in Edinburgh in May. I'm a bit intimadated (well, a lot, actually) by model building, so I'm looking for things that are almost finished and are similar to the real thing. The Kato bridge loooks near enough that I can use it if I'm able to removing the track and the center divider.

I'd love to have the pictures! I can usually copy something - if it's pretty simple.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: dannyboy on July 23, 2018, 01:59:28 AM
I've a bottle of eight year old (or is it 12?) malt that's been in my cupboard for about 30 years. It was a special gift that we kept for a special day.

 :drool: :drool: :drool:
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: weave on July 23, 2018, 04:21:14 AM
Hi Leon,

Would Kato 20-452 be any good?....

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Kato-20-452-Single-Girder-Bridge/dp/B0003K1LLO (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Kato-20-452-Single-Girder-Bridge/dp/B0003K1LLO)

Available in different colours and cover the track with tarmac  :D (plasticard or similar)

Cheers weave  :beers:

Weave, that's one of the bridges I was referring to in my post; the one that currently is taking the avoiding line over the Station Road past the Railway Inn. Except, mine is two tracks. I can move it to the crossing of the station lines, however, and use something else for the avoiding line crossing. I believe the track is easily removable by removing one or more screws.

Leon

Hi,

Sorry. Got confused. I thought the problem was that it was 2 tracks not one. Am still confused, I'll shut up now.

Cheers weave  :beers:

Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 23, 2018, 03:54:53 PM
Am still confused, I'll shut up now.

Cheers weave  :beers:

Weave, never shut up! You may have the very nugget of wisdom one of us needs. And confusion makes us appreciate clarity! To clarify, I have three bridges on my layout. One is the picture I posted of my temporary track plan (phase 1). It's a black Kato double track bridge carrying the avoiding line around Wiltsbury. I may move that bridge and make it the road crossing over the lines through the station (if I'm able to remove the track and the track divider from the bridge). Both bridges are in the lower right corner of the layout. The third bridge, as currently configured, is in the lower left carrying the line to Salisbury. It will be a curved Kato bridge. I mentioned the Tomix bridge as a possible road bridge, but after reflection and consulting my photos again I decided it might be better replacing the two-rail Kato bridge - if the Kato bridge becomes the  road crossing. Now, isn't that clear?  :D

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: keithbythe sea on July 23, 2018, 07:58:46 PM
Clear as mud!  :D  :beers:
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: dannyboy on July 23, 2018, 08:51:50 PM
A lot of people like some claret   y.  :)
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 24, 2018, 05:21:49 PM
I counselled Weave to not shut up, so I should follow my own advice. The track I ordered to finish stage 1 of my track-laying/testing arrived over the week-end, so yesterday I completed that task - after discovering I was one track piece short. I did a little "on the fly" adjustment that worked, so the track trials are finished. Using a sheet of brown wrapping paper (something like butchers paper or paper that your fish & chips might be wrapped in, I guess), I sliipped it beneath the tracks and today I'll draw the track outline and prepare the first of several templates. Sheets of styrofoam are on order for building up the typography, including the tunnel around the top of the layout. It's been terribly humid here for the last week and my layout is in my basement office, so it's been slow going. I have to surface for fresh air, regularly.

While putting away my rolling stock, I came across a locomotive I'd forgotten about. I guess that's #7, though numbers are the most profound of memory issues. :) I've lost count of the times I've measured things like clearances for tunnels! I think I've now seared into my brain the number 50 mm. Please don't tell me that's wrong! :) Just kidding, please ALWAYS tell me when I'm wrong.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: chrispearce on July 24, 2018, 06:30:31 PM
What is loco #7 Leon? Is it a good one?
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 24, 2018, 09:45:03 PM
What is loco #7 Leon? Is it a good one?

Chris, it's a Graham Farish N Gauge 1114 5700 Pannier Tank 5768 GWR Green purchased for 43 pounds on eBay from The Train Shop in North Yorkshire. It seems to run well, and it has the pre-WWII livery (Great Western spelled out with the logo in the middle). This is definitely the best used loco I've bought! I felt I needed it when I wasn't sure about using the one with 1942 livery. I'm good with both of them, now, I think. I've trains with GWR, Shirtbutton, and Great Western liveries, all of which might have been seen from 1942 to 1947. I'm inclined to think my Wiltsbury Station layout is 1942. I may just have a bomb demolition squad removing one of the tracks in the station! :D Just kidding, guys!!! I do have an Army vehicle that will be seen on the road above the station, in route to the nearby Army Supply Depot.

I'm not sure to what extent Pullmans were working during WWII, but I got a good buy on several, so snapped them up. I'll add them to the train the Earl wil be pulling between Paddington and and Cornwall, whether or not they ever ran past Westbury (during the War).

Today was a one step forward two steps back kind of day. Another track alteration of route into Biss River. The addition of space at the bottom of the layout pushed pushed everything up a bit, and I'm trying to compensate to improve the aesthetics. Also, I wasn't happy with the goods line running through the station at the bottom of the paseenger lines, so I'm still fiddling with that. I've also made room for the cheese factory, if I decide to add it. I'll post an updated plan when I feel it's more settled. I AM happy enough with the overall plan to move on with the terrain templates, however. I'll be ready to start cutting foam pieces by the end of the week.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 24, 2018, 09:48:54 PM
Maybe this won't work, but if the link opens you'll see my last locomotive purchase - mentioned in the last post. I made a mistake, though, and indicated there was a logo between Great and Western. There isn't, taking away any doubt of the period the loco was manufactured (I think).

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/fWkAAOSwc~5a632X/s-l1600.jpg

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: port perran on July 24, 2018, 09:56:31 PM
Thatís a smashing little engine Leon.
Hopefully youíll enjoy running it.
In 1963 (aged 9) I enjoyed a very ďunofficialĒ run on the footplate of a pannier tank between Trowbridge and Westbury. I had to crouch down on arrival at Westbury in case someone in officialdom saw me.
Great days.
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 24, 2018, 10:02:15 PM
In 1963 (aged 9) I enjoyed a very ďunofficialĒ run on the footplate of a pannier tank between Trowbridge and Westbury. I had to crouch down on arrival at Westbury in case someone in officialdom saw me.
Great days.

Martin, what a great memory!!! You have more than your fair share of railway memories. :)

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 25, 2018, 07:29:40 PM
I've added three pictures to show the current state of progress (regression?). Some will immediately note that the sharp curve in the lower left corner has been reinstated. The purpose is to provide room for the head-shunt into the goods station and engine shed. I could have managed, perhaps, without this turn, but it will work and it's a natural track direction for the line to Salisbury.

The two photos of the track is the first stage of the track laying - plus a little bit of the north sidings (orginally part of stage 3). After the topography is sculpted I'll add the Biss Rver line (stage 2), and in due course add the south sidings where now there is just on point. I ran out of track and points or I'd have been tempted to complete the track laying, but I don't want to wait on more deliveries before beginning working on the terrain. So, templates will be made and track lifted today or tomorrow. I'll begin developing some new skills - topographical sculpting and building modeling - and when the track is re-layed, it will be to the appropriate elevations

I've ended up with about 4" clearance between track roadbed and the edge of the layout at the front, 5" at the left side, 1.5 to 2 inches at the right and top. The extra room at the left is for the down Salisbury line/head-shunt. I may have to give back a little at the front if I find anything is squeezed too tightly when the last of the track is layed.

Well, there it is - worts and all! :)

Leon

(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/67/6724-250718191209.jpeg)

(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/67/6724-250718190812.jpeg)

(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/67/6724-250718191043.jpeg)
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: port perran on July 25, 2018, 08:26:47 PM
I wish you luck with your endeavours Leon.
Itís looking good so far. My only real observation at this stage is that once all the track is down (following your diagram) it is going to be a bit track heavy.
The main thing though is to enjoy and learn ad you go.
Have fun.
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 25, 2018, 09:24:24 PM
I wish you luck with your endeavours Leon.
Itís looking good so far. My only real observation at this stage is that once all the track is down (following your diagram) it is going to be a bit track heavy.
The main thing though is to enjoy and learn ad you go.
Have fun.

Martin, it is track heavy. But, if I didn't have all that track I'd be having to fill in with other stuff! :) I needed most of the eight feet for a good train run, and it will be roughly ten linear feet visible (the track at the back will not be seen) - enough to show off a passenger and a goods train running simultaneously. When set in proper elevations I think the track will be less dominant. Remember, also, the Kato track includes the roadbed. One final caveat, it's easier to lift track than to find room to add track. Perhaps my greatest concern all along is how I'm going to fill 32 sq. ft. Only the lower left quadrant is too crowded, and that may work out better than I imagine. If it doesn't I'll take something out.

There's no question I'm learning, but I'll not produce the image in my mind. I just don't have the skills to do that. I'd love to see this layout built by someone of your skill and experience. But, I'll enjoy the product regardless of its short comings.

In case anyone is wondering, the River Biss wanders up from northwest of Westbury, through north Trowbridge, slightly back to the southwest, and curves back north to join the Avon (beyond the scope of my plan). If I run out of things to do, I'll add that stream to the layout. We'll see.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: port perran on July 25, 2018, 09:32:53 PM
I know the River Biss very well indeed. As a fisherman I spent many, many  happy hours fishing at Biss Mouth where the Biss joins the Avon in view of the railway line between Trowbridge and Bradford on Avon.
Much of my early trainspotting took place at Black Bridge (about 1 mile from Trowbridge Station)very near to Tuckerís Mill which was situated on the River Biss.
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: daveg on July 26, 2018, 07:57:13 AM
If you're finding it hard to visualise the scenic areas - hills and the like - have a go at forming some of the contours using a heavy tin foil that holds it shape.

I used the heavy foil stripped from the Celotex insulation board for the 3 tunnel lift off sections on Hurst Hill. Once happy with the shape,I covered it with plaster bandage. That's my version of the WS product Shaper Sheet that didn't exist when I started!

Should you give it a try, take great care to avoid the foil making contact with electricity.

Look forward to your next update.

Dave G
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 26, 2018, 06:15:47 PM
If you're finding it hard to visualise the scenic areas - hills and the like - have a go at forming some of the contours using a heavy tin foil that holds it shape.

I used the heavy foil stripped from the Celotex insulation board for the 3 tunnel lift off sections on Hurst Hill. Once happy with the shape,I covered it with plaster bandage. That's my version of the WS product Shaper Sheet that didn't exist when I started!

Should you give it a try, take great care to avoid the foil making contact with electricity.

Look forward to your next update.

Dave G

Dave, that's a great suggestion! I'll let you know if I use it, and electrical contact won't be an issue as my track will be lifted before I do that. My templates will approximate rail location.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 26, 2018, 09:09:45 PM
Speaking of templates, I drew my first one yesterday, and today my styrofoam sheets arrived. I've a few things to sort before lifting the track to sculpt the terrain, but I'm slowly getting there. I've done the measurements and if I did it correctly (blame the computer if I didn't) I'll need 40mm clearance for the avoiding line to pass over the road at the bottom right corner of the layout. I've a photo showing the 14' 0" clearance sign in Westbury. There's not much room from the rail line to the road bridge over the station rails as as the road moves up the layout. Another photo confirms the reality of a very steep gradient - probably not as steep as mine will be, but that's a trade-off. The station rail will be about 30mm above the base level of the layout, and the road bridge will need about 50mm clearance. That's 80mm elevation for the road over 30mm linear (one foot). I'm dense about gradients, but this has to be pretty steep! In fact, I've drawn it on foamboard and viewed it from near baseboard level. It looks to be twice what I had envisaged, but will not look quite as bad when the track level is raised to 30mm. It is what is is! Of greater concern to me, is how to accommodate the road after it crosses the rails. It looks ok in 2D, but what will it look like on the relatively narrow space between Wiltbury and Biss River? Well, that's the challenge facing me for the next week or so. I'll report back daily, but will try to not be as verbose! I'm aware that no one is as interested as me, but one or two are keen to see how I cope. (And, I can't help but believe there is someone waiting to say "I told you so"! :) Actually, no one has questioned the short space with which to ascend to the road bridge; maybe you're all to polite to point out something that should have been obvious, even to me! All I can say is the space looks a lot greater on paper than on the layout! Just thought of something, though - I can reclaim 25mm from the bottom of the layout - still leaving me with 2.5 inches.

The approach of the avoiding line to the rail bridge will be a 2 percent incline/decline, beginning after the left hand curve at the bottom left and ending at the tunnel on the right side. On the left side, I'll need to find about 20mm elevation for the Salisbury line to cross the avoiding line. This is the part that some don't believe will work! I'm unsure, how I'll manage it, at this point, but we'll see. I have about 14mm between the track roadbed and the left edge of the layout available. I can't start the curve much before the crossover, so I'll have to find most of the elevation before the turn. It can be done (I have about 900mm to do it).

I'm still sweltering in the heat, and I believe most of you, also. Hopefully, there will be more progress for all of us with some moderation in the temperatures.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Newportnobby on July 26, 2018, 09:22:11 PM
In all my years on the forum I've never known anyone to say "I told you so", so I don't think that's going to happen :no:
I'll also wager far more people are looking on as your layout develops than actually post in your thread. This will no doubt change as there becomes more to see.
Keep up the good work, Leon.
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 26, 2018, 09:49:59 PM
Keep up the good work, Leon.

Mick, thanks for the encouragement! I have to say that I've been tolerated well in this forum! :) I'm really NOT paranoid, but can easily imagine some who, but for good manners, would be saying "I told you so"! The comparison with a ski slope suggests that might be the case. I'm ok with that, btw. Thin skinned people don't remain in forums very long, for many forums are not so civil. When I post, it is not for compliments (though they ARE apprecaited, when deserved), but for criticism and suggestions for improvement. I've benefited greatly from that kind of feedback here.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 26, 2018, 10:01:14 PM
The picture below is the hill descending from the road bridge at Westbury. Note the White Horse between the trees on the left, and the steepness of the hill, of course.

(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/67/6724-260718215842.jpeg)
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: dannyboy on July 26, 2018, 10:02:32 PM
I occasionally have a look at another forum, (I am not a member, just a 'lurker'), and I have to say, that there are some very rude people on the other forum. This forum is, 99% of the time, an extremely friendly place to be.  As Mick says, I very much doubt anyone would say "I told you so". There may be some criticism but it is always what my late Dad used to call constructive criticism. I enjoy your 'ramblings' and do look forward to seeing how you get on with the layout. :beers:
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: njee20 on July 26, 2018, 10:09:48 PM
If I understand it correctly youíre saying you need to gain 80mm in 300mm, which is very steep at 27%, but wouldnít worry me overly for a scenic road.
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 27, 2018, 12:08:45 AM
If I understand it correctly youíre saying you need to gain 80mm in 300mm, which is very steep at 27%, but wouldnít worry me overly for a scenic road.

Njee, that is right, but as you can see in the photograph this isn't really a scenic road! It has some scenic appeal from the top looking back (as photographed), but I must confess I'm a little anxious about confronting this element of the layout. I may have to use a little imaginary discretion. The road bends before the bottom, and I may have it even less straight to lesson the severity of the incline. If I'm going to show the pond, on the right, however, there's not much room for the road to meander very much.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 27, 2018, 01:32:11 AM
Tonight, I've been reading about using foam board for modeling scenery (topography) and came across this comment regarding extruded foam board for baseboards.
Quote
At any hardware store, foam board seems to be higher priced than plywood. However, i look on craigslist to see if I can save some money. I hardly ever find plywood but there always seems to be contractors selling extruded foam board. Some of it didn't pass the requirements for a building project or is just left over. I have seen 4x8 sheets that are 2 inches thick on there for $3-5 per sheet.

The site where I found the quote above was a forum thread focusing on track noise from extruded foam board, and I noted some of them were using Kato. I can confirm that my trains running on Kato are a little noisy. Most suggested using soft foam, rubber, or cork beneath the rail, but Kato track is already sitting higher and I'm not sure I want to do that. After ballasting, perhaps the sound will be muted somewhat.

Back to reading about foam for topography.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: njee20 on July 27, 2018, 06:49:30 AM
 I just meant scenic to differentiate from track - obviously that would be vastly too steep for anything to run up.

Youíll have to mock it up, it may look excessive, but thatís for you to decide. IMO road gradients are one thing that donít scale, and Ďtoo steepí often looks fine.
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: keithbythe sea on July 27, 2018, 07:35:00 AM
Hi Leon, just following up on davegs suggestion regarding using tinfoil to get a feel for what the scenery will look like. An alternative method is to mock things up with card formers (cereal packets are ideal) overlaid with card, paper, or indeed foil. It can all be held together in true ďblue peterĒ style using double sided tape, paper clips etc...
Hope that this helps.... :)
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: daveg on July 27, 2018, 07:43:55 AM
Celotex is the base for my layout and the track is on WS trackbed (may have said that before) and noise isn't a problem, it's just right to my ear.

What I have found is that the method of fixing the ballast (Copydex / PVA mix / Deluxe Track Magic) can alter the sound. Track Magic is noisier but no real idea why. A diluted mix of Copydex delivers the quietest.

Not sure what happens when you 'over-ballast' Kato track. Others here may be able to advise.

Dave G
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: port perran on July 27, 2018, 07:45:00 AM
Leon, I think the slope on the road will be fine as long as you use scenic items such as walls, hedges, trees etc to disguise somewhat the slope.
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Newportnobby on July 27, 2018, 09:37:57 AM

What I have found is that the method of fixing the ballast (Copydex / PVA mix / Deluxe Track Magic) can alter the sound. Track Magic is noisier but no real idea why. A diluted mix of Copydex delivers the quietest.


Could this be down to the latex composition of the Copydex giving a dampening effect?
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: daveg on July 27, 2018, 11:25:36 AM

What I have found is that the method of fixing the ballast (Copydex / PVA mix / Deluxe Track Magic) can alter the sound. Track Magic is noisier but no real idea why*. A diluted mix of Copydex delivers the quietest.


Could this be down to the latex composition of the Copydex giving a dampening effect?

That was my conclusion, Mick.

*On reflection, the Track Magic seems to go mega-hard and perhaps that along with a different mix of ballast is the reason the section I used it on is significantly louder/noisier than elsewhere.

Dave G
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Bealman on July 27, 2018, 11:29:54 AM
I'll stick to the PVA washing detergent mix.

Even though I find it mind boggling boring  ;)
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 27, 2018, 04:36:07 PM
Celotex is the base for my layout and the track is on WS trackbed (may have said that before) and noise isn't a problem, it's just right to my ear.
Dave G

Dave, I'm sure there's a difference, but Celotex seems to be very similar to my extruded polystyrene. We have access to Copydex here, but don't know that I need anything more than PVA. I did buy a pint of Scenic Cement from Woodland Scenics - mainly for comparison with PVA. I bought Loctite to glue the foamboard base to the frame (mainly because Home Depot suggested it for the board I bought), and Elmer's Glue for routine glueing of card and foam. I know there are some differences, but I think they all do pretty much the same job.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 27, 2018, 04:44:45 PM
Leon, I think the slope on the road will be fine as long as you use scenic items such as walls, hedges, trees etc to disguise somewhat the slope.

Martin, thanks! This issue kept me awake last night. :) This morning I shaved 3mm off the slope, so I'm feeling better. Moving on with the transfering of template drawings to foam board, but the heat won't permit a lot of progress, today. Our weather, like yours, is usually much milder at this time of year. Our son phoned yesterday and commented that it hasn't rained in North Somerset since we left on 16 June. We are overlooking the sea, and can usually count on temperatures of at least five degrees below Boston, but this year has been much different. I'm restricted, somewhat, in the time I can spend in my office every summer, however. I use a dehumidifier, but don't have air conditioning in the basement.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 27, 2018, 05:12:56 PM
I just meant scenic to differentiate from track - obviously that would be vastly too steep for anything to run up.

Youíll have to mock it up, it may look excessive, but thatís for you to decide. IMO road gradients are one thing that donít scale, and Ďtoo steepí often looks fine.

Njee, as mentioned in another post, I've reduced the slope by 3mm, so I'm feeling a little better. There is a curve at the bottom of the road (in Westbury) and I'll probably exaggerate it a bit (or add another slight curve) on the layout to improve the aesthetics. On the other side of the layout, I've added 3mm to the height of the roadbed approaching the curve on the Salisbury line; not nearly enough.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Train Waiting on July 27, 2018, 06:55:52 PM

The site where I found the quote above was a forum thread focusing on track noise from extruded foam board, and I noted some of them were using Kato. I can confirm that my trains running on Kato are a little noisy. Most suggested using soft foam, rubber, or cork beneath the rail, but Kato track is already sitting higher and I'm not sure I want to do that. After ballasting, perhaps the sound will be muted somewhat.


Hello Leon

Now it's a long way from my Table-Top Railway to your excellent Westbury Junction 1938-1942.  And I don't only mean that it's a long way from Mass. to just south of Edinburgh!  But we have Kato track in common.  At least with my Table-Top Railway (Mk II and Mk III).  'Unitrack' is an excellent product and a very well thought-out system.  And it is noisy!  When the loose ballast was applied in the 'six-foot way' of Mk III, it was even noisier.  By the way, Steve @tutenkhamunsleeping (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=1490) was very helpful with regard to how to do this ballasting.  (Thank you, Steve.)

Now here is the thing.  Some people don't mind the noise.  Some people like it.  But me; I have have a Victorian attitude - toy trains ought to be seen and not heard.

The Table-Top Railway (Mk. II) was built on soft foam (called 'filter foam' hereabouts) and used Kato 'Unitrack'.  It was very quiet.  But (why is there so often a 'but'?) the tendency for 'Unitrack' to be a tad uneven at the joins was magnified by the soft foam base.  This was maybe my poor track laying.  I did solve the problem (by extreme measures), but Mk. II is a tiny layout.

I really enjoy your posts and hope that you find the noise level to be acceptable.

With kind regards.

John
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 27, 2018, 08:34:32 PM
hope that you find the noise level to be acceptable.

John, I don't have a great intolerance for noise, but did observe the "drum" sound (when I was testing my locomotives) that others have mentioned. Apparently, it's not JUST Kato, but I guess Kato might make it worse with its plastic roadbed. Much of my track will be on added layers of foam, but the main (avoiding) line will be on the surface of the extruded polystyrene for about two thirds of the journey around the oval. I'd prefer for it to be quieter, but I just have to accept tradeoffs. I'm not physically able to take on all the "drama" that would be necessary to create a more perfect layout. And, besides, though I'll strive to do my best, I may come up short of my aspirations. I've never done most of the things that are looming ahead of me, so just putting something on the layout has been like facing "writer's block" or a blank canvas. I managed ok with the temporary track laying and testing, but I'm apprehensive about starting the REAL modeling. So, what have I done today? I've assembled the items I have that will be needed for the topography sculpting - and ordered more stuff. When I have everthing to hand and the weather cools a bit, I'll be out of excuses for my delays. :)

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Newportnobby on July 27, 2018, 09:18:39 PM
Whenever we create a baseboard by way of a wooden frame overlaid with a solid surface with cross bracing we are, in effect, creating a drum. Whether or not some form of underlay is used under the track, loose ballasting which is then glued to a solid mass will cause sound to resonate and I suspect the 'ballast' shoulder of Unitrack just means the sound of loco/stock on rails echoes through the space beneath the rails. I suspect the only way to achieve silence is to turn the power off :hmmm: ;)
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: chrispearce on July 27, 2018, 09:31:13 PM
Much progress Leon. Track plan looks good.
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 28, 2018, 06:58:18 PM
While I doubt anyone cares, I've decided to re-instate the second rail between the platforms at Wiltsbury. My rationale is that it DOES better represent the NORMAL operation of the station. I'll always believe, however, that the OS map drawn in 1941 accurately depicts the station on the day(s) the cartologist was there - with just one rail between the platforms. Why? We may never know, but my daughter's "out of the box" thinking is the most likely explanation - the War effort. Those of us who didn't live as adults through WWII can never understand the precarious situation throughout the War, especially early on. The King sacricifed much of his ornamental ironwork (admitedly as an token example for the Nation), but sacrifices cut across all strata of society and no person, group, or company were exempt.

I studied history and geography in Edinburgh for my teaching certification, and I re-call a research paper I wrote about life in the U. K. during WWII. Despite the hardships we all have read about, the majority of the population lived pretty much as usual, especially those who could grow their own food. This relative insulation from the realities of the War contributed to the resolve of the country, but has left a legacy, perhaps, of mis-understanding about the serious doubts about the outcome of the War that existed until long after 1941. One story I recently read gives some insight to the REAL situation.

Seventy-five years ago last March, a group of oil field "roughnecks" arrived in England from the United States to find a solution to the drastic under-supply of oil, due to the loss of so much tonnage to German U-boats. England had one oil field, in Sherwood Forest, but it produced just 300 barrels a day of the 150,000 barrels that was needed to fuel the War effort. Within a week they had started drilling and after the first year had sunk 106 wells and production had increased to 300,000 barrels a day. (Source: The Secret of Sherwood Forest: Oil Production in England During World War II by Guy and Grace Steele Woodward, 1973.) The Oil Patch Warrior, a seven foot bronze statue of a roughneck holding a four foot pipe wrench stands near Nottingham, England to honor the American oil men's assistance and sacrifice in the war. A replica was placed in Ardmore, Oklahoma in 2001.

The needs were great and against vast odds there were answers to the inexhaustble need for materials for the maintenance of the War effort. Lifting unused and/or unnessary rails during the War would have been one of the lesser sacrifices. I've not done the research, but I'd wager my last penny that as badly as iron and steel were needed there were a lot of rails lifted in 1941!

But, life goes on, and so must my layout! So, starting today (1941) trains are running through Wiltshire Station and discharging passengers at both Platform 1 and Platform 2. The Signal Box is no longer at the end of Platform 2, but it's not far away. :)

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Caz on July 28, 2018, 08:00:17 PM
I think as the over whelming evidence shows, you've done the right thing ,especially as it will add a lot of operational interest.   :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: port perran on July 28, 2018, 08:03:04 PM
You have most definitely done the correct thing there Leon  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 28, 2018, 08:26:10 PM
I think I may have found the bridge I need for crossing the station tracks. Surprisingly, to me, this Chinese company have quite a large selection of N Scale 3-D printed railway items. https://www.ebay.com/str/Outland-Models-CN/N-Scale-Spur-N-1-160-/_i.html?_storecat=20746071010. (https://www.ebay.com/str/Outland-Models-CN/N-Scale-Spur-N-1-160-/_i.html?_storecat=20746071010.) They're on eBay.

Most items are too modern for my layout, but a few things, like the bridge, can be adapted. The bridge is Z scale, but it's the right width for automobiles and both length and height are adaptable, I think.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: daveg on July 29, 2018, 07:49:09 AM
A number of us have one or more Outland kits.

I have an open barn / small shed which is a bit 'clunky' with some parts overscale so not used but I believe some of the other buildings, although basic, are quite good. Maybe some are a bit too modern for your planned era.

Steve @tutenkhamunsleeping (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=1490) I think has a few on his layout:

http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=19584.0 (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=19584.0)

Dave G
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 29, 2018, 05:31:45 PM
A number of us have one or more Outland kits.

Dave, I've gone ahead and ordered three items: the roadbridge, pedestrian crossover (for Biss River), and rail bumpers. I'll comment upon receipt - around September?

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 30, 2018, 02:35:52 AM
As I figured, there were lots of adjustments to be made as I worked on elevations. I'm feeling a little better, but not altogether confident there won't be more changes as I start the actual sculpting of the foam. It now looks like the avoding line, east bound, will run at a height of 45mm around the curve on the lower right and up to the sharp point and curve leading into the station, west bound. That means the entire station rail system will be at the same elevation. After that I've got a 2 degree decline into and through half the tunnel. If things match up in the darkness of the tunnel, there will be a lot of light over the rest of the layout!

We had dinner with our daughter and granddaughter and her family in Salem (of the Witch Trials). That was after the antique car show on the street between our house and Back Beach. (I'll add a link to an album I'm preparing in Google Photos.) I needed that distraction, today. Tomorrow, if the heat/humidity isn't too intense, I hope to see some tangible progress. I still have an excuse, though. I'm awaiting delivery of more foam board. Most likely many of you have bought things that in the end weren't used. I certainly have, I know, and I'm nowhere near the end. So, I'm trying to wait until I'm pretty confident before ordering building materials.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Newportnobby on July 30, 2018, 09:43:10 AM
Most likely many of you have bought things that in the end weren't used. I certainly have, I know, and I'm nowhere near the end.

I wonder how many of us have that "I didn't need that/have ordered too much.........but it will come in handy some day" pile somewhere in the house/shed/garage. :hmmm:
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Bealman on July 30, 2018, 09:50:34 AM
Guilty m'lud  :-[
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: dannyboy on July 30, 2018, 10:20:02 AM
And how many of us have decided to do a little job that we never thought of doing before, only to get half way through and think "I need a (whatever)", only to go to the relevant box to find that there is not one there!  :o. I wanted a simple on/off switch yesterday, did I have one, the polite answer was "No".

Still, keep up the good work @Leon (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=6724) - you will find this dear hobby of ours is full of 'ups and downs'.  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 30, 2018, 07:49:10 PM
I received my first Kato #4 Turnout R481-15 (R19"-15), 20-221. I'll not be able to test it for a while, but thought someone might be interested in my observations. The roadbed on the joining pieces were angeled, and there were two "Special Type" Unijoiners included. The accessory tracks are 2x64mm straights and right and left notched 60mm straights. Instructions are in both Japanese and English, and the American company address is printed at the bottom back of the packet. It was bought from an American source, and I think it will be safer to use an American source in future for the remaining points I'll be needing. Obviously, until I test I'll not know for certain the problems others have reported have been fixed.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: dannyboy on July 30, 2018, 08:30:47 PM
@Leon (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=6724)
I have never tried the American market for Kato track, although I have bought a few Kato, (and Atlas), engines from there. Keith at 'Traintrax' only deals with Kato stuff, although I have never compared his prices with the American market, plus of course, there would be postage to you, although no VAT.
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 31, 2018, 04:58:30 PM
I'm away this afternoon to Home Depot (DIY) to pick up more foam board I've ordered, so the creation will begin in earnest over the next few days. I decided to post another image of the plan - with revisions. I'll not comment, except to explain that the red lines represent the primary contours and the blue line is the River Biss (should it be added in the future). The indecision about the river is due to the shortage of real estate above the railway in Biss River. Everthing at the top of the layout is contingent upon the build-out of the terrain over the avoiding line oval. I want to keep it as low as possible, in keeping with the landscape in that part of Wiltshire. As I've mentioned before, the tunnel is pure fiction, but necessary to bring the trains back downline.

My roads are NOT standard width. My thinking is that roads would have been more narrow seventy-five years ago, and space compromises should benefit the rail layout rather than the roads. Comments?

Leon

(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/67/6724-310718164142.jpeg)
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: port perran on July 31, 2018, 05:02:33 PM
Just one comment on the River Biss.
It really is a tiny brook through Westbury, no more than a large ditch really, so please donít make it too big.
The Biss actually rises at Biss Bottom near to Upton Scudamore, close to the railway line between Westbury and Warminster.
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 31, 2018, 06:09:55 PM
Incidentally, for those who don't know, the two rails lower right leading to "nowhere" passed under the road through a separate "tunnel" with cut stone faces. Also, the rails were at a bit of an angle (right) from the main line rails through the station. I've tried to angle them in my plan, and it can be done, but I'm not sure I like the aesthetics. (And, I can't interfere with Martin's "fishing hole"!) There was, in fact, a smaller pond between the road and Frogmore Lake. It has been filled in for a residential development. I label the water "pond" out of deference to real lakes! All of these ponds were originally mining excavations from the Westbury Iron works era. (Some, maybe, from earlier times.)

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 31, 2018, 06:27:56 PM
Just one comment on the River Biss.
It really is a tiny brook through Westbury, no more than a large ditch really, so please donít make it too big.
The Biss actually rises at Biss Bottom near to Upton Scudamore, close to the railway line between Westbury and Warminster.

Thanks, Martin. It wasn't a lot  bigger than Biss Brook before Trowbridge, though Biss Brook must have provided a slight volume of water at their confluence. At the crossing of the railway, north of the station, the width of the river is approximately equal to the double railbed. The way I've had to compact the terrain in the lower left of the layout, and provision for the tunnel, doesn't provide for an accurate source for the River, but the way it meanders is pretty faithful. I'm leaving the appropriate elevations as I build, but if the River is ever added it will be one of the final features of the layout.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on August 01, 2018, 05:40:42 PM
I'm cutting board and building elevations. Not very sexy, but has to be done! By the end of the week, if I can stand the heat and humidity, I should have the "bones" of the layout in place.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: daveg on August 01, 2018, 06:00:03 PM
Look forward to a photo or two,Leon!  :camera:

Dave G
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Caz on August 01, 2018, 06:49:06 PM
Me too.   :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on August 01, 2018, 08:29:03 PM
There's just piles of foam shapes, now. I'll post pictures when I put it all together. Well, not all, but enough for you to see the basic form and height of the typography.

I've never built a card kit. I've a stack of Metcalfe kits awaiting my attention, including one of their Mini Kits. Question! Should I do the Mini, first?  It's the Platform Underpass. I have the station and platform kits, also. I just thought the Mini Kit might be a good introduction.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: dannyboy on August 02, 2018, 02:19:50 AM
@Leon (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=6724)
I have made a lot of the Metcalfe kits and can recommend them. However, I have never made one of the mini kits, so can not say whether you would be better starting with one of those, or a 'full size' kit. One suggestion I would make is to use something like a steel ruler for bending the card and remember, to look better, the exposed white card needs to be coloured. There have been plenty of tips for making the kits on the forum. Once you have made a couple, you will start thinking about how you can change them a bit, e.g. different roof, adding guttering. I think you will be pleased with the results.  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on August 02, 2018, 03:27:39 AM
@Leon ([url]http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=6724[/url])
I have made a lot of the Metcalfe kits and can recommend them. However, I have never made one of the mini kits, so can not say whether you would be better starting with one of those, or a 'full size' kit. One suggestion I would make is to use something like a steel ruler for bending the card and remember, to look better, the exposed white card needs to be coloured. There have been plenty of tips for making the kits on the forum. Once you have made a couple, you will start thinking about how you can change them a bit, e.g. different roof, adding guttering. I think you will be pleased with the results.  :thumbsup:


Thanks, David. I may just jump in the deep end. I need to complete the station, anyway. It will help me insure that I have the elevations right on the level below the tracks. Next will be the platforms followed by the Subways.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: daveg on August 02, 2018, 06:43:17 AM
The mini kits can be a bit fiddly so I'd start with a larger, simpler structure so you get the idea of how to handle the material.

The underpass is a a neat little thing with some rather finely cut pieces.

There are loads of excellent tips on how to build a Metcalfe kit but a really important thing is to have a good, sharp craft knife.

HTH

Dave G

Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Newportnobby on August 02, 2018, 12:32:49 PM
a really important thing is to have a good, sharp craft knife.


I'm not allowed anywhere near such things :( ;)
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Caz on August 02, 2018, 07:50:57 PM
Metcalf kits are improved immensely by running one of the cheap Chinese felt tip pens down the white bits of the folds BEFORE you put any glue on them,  Mix the colours to get the desired effect and you can hardly see the folds.
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: daveg on August 02, 2018, 08:04:39 PM
Agree with Caz on hiding the white fold.

Something like this, maybe:

(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/64/main_1273.JPG)

Dave G
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on August 02, 2018, 09:12:08 PM
The heat is so bad here that I've had to suspend production, and it doesn't look good into next week. I've got the foam boards ready to start glueing, so I'll take a few days to read about building landscapes - and watch more video. I've modified my strategy a bit. I'd hoped to have all the elevations in place before relaying the track, but I've discovered that I need the track in place to assist with the topographical sculpting. Lines on the baseboard for the tracks are obscured by layers of foamboard, so if I don't re-lay the track I've no guide for trimming the foam. The templates were a good idea, but they leave much to be done after the initial cuts. As others have pointed out, I'll benefit from completing the station and platform kits before proceeding further with the terrain beyond the basic land forms.

I bought watercolor pencils for the white folds. Perhaps the felt tips would have been better?

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: dannyboy on August 02, 2018, 10:04:58 PM
@Leon (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=6724)    Use whatever you are comfortable with for colouring the white bits - everybody has their own favourite. Practice on some spare card first. My favourites are called 'Brush Pens' which I buy from a stationers/craft shop chain in the UK, (I go over the border into Northern Ireland). They only cost £3 for 20+.  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on August 04, 2018, 02:24:47 PM
... post your query with the drawing on the open forum.  I'll contribute some ideas and, importantly others will too.  This will be very helpful.  If anything suggested is beyond your present understanding of installing wiring, please say so.  That way the person posting can give a further explanation.

Best wishes.

John
([url]http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/67/6222-040818083643.jpeg[/url]) ([url]http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=67825[/url])



The above quote and image are a result of a couple of private exchanges I've had with John. To reprise, I'm building terrain, but can't go much further until I've drilled holes for my Feeders and Point Switches. My track system is Kato and I've added two Feeders, already, marked on the layout with orange dots. I've circled all of my points and the holes for the drop wires will be within those circles.

My primary need is for suggestions about the placement of additional Feeders. The two I've installed provide good power on the outer oval for up and down traffic on the main avoiding line, and the point between the two orange dots permits power to the first double crossover. At that point, there is no electrification of the layout.

My knowledge is limited to what I've just stated, and the fact that Kato sells Terminal Unijoiners which I will be using with possibly other sections of Feeder Track (three Feeders per controller; two Kato controllers). The Terminal UniJoiners are wired, and can be used in place of Feeder Track (62mm straights). They make it easy to feed power to curves or track between switches and areas where it is not easy to place a piece of Feeder track. I also have a non-Kato controller which I've thought would work the up/down line that represents Salisbury-Bristol, and shunting on the sidings.

Finally, the double crossovers (of which I have three in the layout) are insulated, and, thus, require additional power considerations.

Any and all guidance and suggestions will be greatly appreciated, though my primary need at the moment is simply where to place the Feeders, as I need to drill my holes and get on with building the terrain.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Train Waiting on August 04, 2018, 03:15:37 PM
Thank you, Leon, for posting this on the Forum.

This is, I think, the easiest way to wire the layout for two controllers and reliable operation.  It assumes that all the power feeds are live all the time.  If you choose to have switched power feeds, you would have more flexibility at the expense of a little more wiring complication.  The outer loop controller has an easy circuit.  The inner loop controller has the 'dead-end' tracks to supply as well.  I have suggested a few insulated 'Unijoiners' which are easy to install and ought to prevent short circuits.

Other Members are very likely to make many improvements on my initial thoughts.  But here is a start...

With all good wishes.

John

Power feeds in Orange.  Insulated 'Unijoiners' in Green.


(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/67/6222-040818151410.jpeg) (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=67829)
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Newportnobby on August 04, 2018, 06:01:21 PM
I'm with John on this, and am glad he has added feeds at the LHS of the main ovals
(a) it avoids possible voltage drop and
(b) you might require feeds to all 4 tracks of the double crossovers as it will possibly require insulated joiners on all 4 exits. I don't know enough about Kato track to be sure.
If the points are closed against the loco shed, goods yard and cattle dock then nothing will run in there unless you place feeds at the toe of the next point in. :hmmm:
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on August 04, 2018, 07:40:49 PM
I'm with John on this, and am glad he has added feeds at the LHS of the main ovals
(a) it avoids possible voltage drop and
(b) you might require feeds to all 4 tracks of the double crossovers as it will possibly require insulated joiners on all 4 exits. I don't know enough about Kato track to be sure.
If the points are closed against the loco shed, goods yard and cattle dock then nothing will run in there unless you place feeds at the toe of the next point in. :hmmm:

Mick, electricity does not flow though the double crossovers, therefore, there must be feeds on all the tracks that lead into the crossovers. At least that's my understanding. John seems to have that covered, except that I may need a Feed on the lower of the two lines between the two crossovers. John did place one below the left hand point on that stretch of track which might suffice. That's beyond my knowledge and understanding. Thanks to both of you for your help.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: dannyboy on August 04, 2018, 07:47:39 PM
Leon, for the crossovers to work properly, you need a power feed on each of the four 'legs' of the crossover. The power feed can be anywhere between the crossover and the next point on the line. Mike Fifer explains it well in one of his videos. I will have a more detailed look at the plan later.  :beers:
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Train Waiting on August 04, 2018, 07:57:00 PM
Thank you, chaps, for your helpful comments.  I was looking at the plan on a small screen and might have missed something.  I'm sure that between us we can help Leon bring his super layout plan to life.

John
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on August 05, 2018, 02:17:56 AM
Leon, for the crossovers to work properly, you need a power feed on each of the four 'legs' of the crossover. The power feed can be anywhere between the crossover and the next point on the line. Mike Fifer explains it well in one of his videos. I will have a more detailed look at the plan later.  :beers:

David, I watched the Fifer video and it confirmed what I thought about wiring the crossover points (thanks to the help I've received). I'm now confident to begin drilling my holes and dropping my Feeder wires (and point wiring). I'm not there just yet, but am making progress building the layers of foamboard. I'll add the inclines, tomorrow, and it should be just a few more days before I start gluing it all down - unless I encounter problems witth the inclines and have to make another change to the track plan. When it's all glued I'll attach the Feeders and test the track with a couple locomotives. I can then proceed with the real landscaping. My brain doesn't function well in this heat, so I'm limited to about an hour at a time. Today, I watched the entire Red Sox baseball game between working sessions.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: weave on August 05, 2018, 03:45:25 AM
Hi Leon,

Are you a baseball fan or is that your way of saying it took ages to get anything done?

I'm watching my team (SF Giants) gettin' beat in Arizona as we speak. Couldn't sleep, too hot here as well.

There is a baseball thread on the forum by the way.

Anyway, glad you're making progress and looking forward to more.

Cheers weave  :beers:
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on August 05, 2018, 05:58:33 PM
Hi Leon,

Are you a baseball fan or is that your way of saying it took ages to get anything done?

I'm watching my team (SF Giants) gettin' beat in Arizona as we speak. Couldn't sleep, too hot here as well.

There is a baseball thread on the forum by the way.

Anyway, glad you're making progress and looking forward to more.

Cheers weave  :beers:

Weave, you can't live in the Boston area without being a Red Sox fan! Especially when they're playing the Yankees (which they are this weekend). Ten years ago, I watched most games on television, and my wife and I took in one game at Fenway Park (courtesy of our children for an Anniversary gift). I don't watch much these days. It just seemed like I could make better use of my time. Actually, the game I watched was the shortest Red Sox vs Yankee game in more than twenty years!

Now when it comes to football, I watch EVERY Patriots game. With just one game a week, I can justify that.

I'm able to sleep quite well. It does cool off at night, and we have air conditioning which works much better at night. My basement office isn't air conditioned, though, and I'm really struggling to get things done. I work a while, and then sit at the computer and drink a cold beverage to cool off. Yesterday was the worst. I had to stop twice and take long breaks out of the heat of the office. I've been cutting/triming foam board for about an hour and a half, today, and I've a feeling I'll be calling it a day long before the Red Sox and Yankees go at it for the final time in this series (8:10 start time).

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on August 05, 2018, 06:06:20 PM
I've bought several Langley kits, lately. Some guy is clearing his Langley inventory, I guess. I'm not very impressed with the taxi and truck I bought, but they were cheap! I'm much happier buying Oxford N scale - ready to place on the layout! And, they look great! They are reasonably priced, also, but relatively few of the fit my modeling era and location.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: weave on August 05, 2018, 06:48:05 PM
Hi Leon,

I don't know how to do the link but the thread started by emjaybee is 'baseball!!!Serrwing,batter,batter' if you go to Search at the top of the page.

He's a Red Sox fan. I mentioned you earlier today and it would be good to have you as another fan, even if you just dip in and out. As there's only a few of us it's not really a time consuming, intense discussion, just a bit of a like minded chat now and again.

Keep up the good layout work.

Cheers weave  :beers:
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on August 05, 2018, 08:10:56 PM
(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/67/6724-050818200018.jpeg)

Did I mention that building elevations is a lot harder than I expected? :) As you can see, I am working at it, and I'm not giving up - though today has been one step forward and two back! I'm finished for the day, probably, though I keep coming back and tinkering.

The pink board is in two layers - 25mm and 50mm.

If I'm forced to go to 4 % incline rather than the 2 I've been planning, will it work? Woodland Scenics sell the inclines in 2, 3, and 4%, so I assume someone is building 4% inclines. I think I can make it work with 2% (certainly 3%), but if it doesn't work I'd rather double up with the 2% I have already than have to buy 3%.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on August 05, 2018, 09:12:28 PM

This is, I think, the easiest way to wire the layout for two controllers and reliable operation.  It assumes that all the power feeds are live all the time.  If you choose to have switched power feeds, you would have more flexibility at the expense of a little more wiring complication.  The outer loop controller has an easy circuit.  The inner loop controller has the 'dead-end' tracks to supply as well.  I have suggested a few insulated 'Unijoiners' which are easy to install and ought to prevent short circuits.

Power feeds in Orange.  Insulated 'Unijoiners' in Green.
([url]http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/67/6222-040818151410.jpeg[/url]) ([url]http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=67829[/url])


John,

Thanks for the annotated plan. Is there a specific reason why you chose Feeder track in some places and Unijoiners in others? My presumption is that the placement of the dot is a proximity location. Right? I've had to make some track changes and don't know that I can add a 62mm Feeder in all the places you designated. The Unijoiners should be a lot easier.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Newportnobby on August 05, 2018, 09:15:49 PM
I think you could really struggle with 4% inclines, Leon :worried:


Now when it comes to football, I watch EVERY Patriots game. With just one game a week, I can justify that.

I'm able to sleep quite well.

Being a Cheesehead for about 20 years I don't sleep well :no: ;)
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Train Waiting on August 05, 2018, 09:45:21 PM
Leon

The 'Unijoiners' I marked in green are the insulated ones and ought to prevent short circuits.

For the power feeds I marked in orange, you can use either the 62mm feeder tracks or the power 'Unijoiners' according to circumstances.

John
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on August 05, 2018, 10:00:26 PM
I think you could really struggle with 4% inclines, Leon :worried:

Mick, I have to drop one line 25mm over about 1200mm. Another decline/incline is a little steeper, but still just need 25mm over 850 to 900mm. That should be doable?

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Newportnobby on August 05, 2018, 10:09:24 PM
25mm over 1200mm is a tad over 2% so I reckon you'd be OK with that.
25mm over 850mm is a tad under 3%. Some heavier locos/shorter trains should be OK.
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: dannyboy on August 05, 2018, 10:11:40 PM
My inclines are more like 50mm over 1200mm so I can not see any problem there @Leon (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=6724). Your incline, using the calculation rise/run*100 gives you 2.08%, (mine is about 4%  :worried:).
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: keithbythe sea on August 06, 2018, 08:00:05 AM
Hi Leon, looking very good. The heat here is delaying my progress as well. For us things start to cool down on Wednesday.

The maximum gradient I have on Sonmel is 3%. It works ok for me with diesels and relatively short trains. Test with your rolling stock before making the scenery permanent!
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on August 07, 2018, 01:48:48 AM
Test with your rolling stock before making the scenery permanent!

Keith, I've come to the conclusion that nothing is permanent in model railroading! I'm learning that despite the many hours I've spent with my AnyRail application, the two-dimensional model doesn't reveal some of the obstacles that have to be overcome when the track is laid on and around elevations. And, even features that should be obvious in 2D aren't. Today, I suddenly realized that my platforms at Wiltsbury weren't even. The were the same length, but one extended further to the right and the other to the left. Suddenly, as I was manipulating pieces of track it dawned on me that the correction required a simple repositioning of one of the points! But, that required a few more hours of alterations to the track plan. It's all fixed - until the next surprise! Permanent? Not likely. :) And scenery will be evolving forever - just as in real life.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on August 09, 2018, 05:34:38 PM
Progress is slow, but I am moving forward. :) I continue to tweek the plan, (1) deleting one of the sidings on the north side (providing a little room between the lower half and upper half of the layout), (2) adding a left hand point from the station down line to crossover in front of the signal box (per a 1960s photo), (3) and re-configured the siding below Platform 1 leading to the lower right corner (I was able to do this to conform with another period photo and to avoid falling into the Pond where Martin fished, as a boy). There have been a few more minor changes to insure appropriate inclines and to confirm that the Salisbury line (lower left corner) clears the avoiding line and has room for a reasonable turn. I'm very pleased, and will be lifting the track, soon, to begin the process of gluing the layers of foamboard. At that point, I'll complete the inclines (using Woodland Scenics Incline/Decline Starters) and begin glueing the track.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on August 11, 2018, 03:35:31 AM
Thanks to all who are keeping up with my progress (and sometimes, regression!). Tonight was good. The humidity is still 88% and the temperature 71 F outside, but the temp in my office is 78F and I'm sure the humidity is probably higher than outside. Nevertheless, I've been a little more clear headed than usual. I've been cutting and fitting foam and re-configuring track. I'm beyond forcasting, beyond the weather! However, I'll be ready for some longer working sessions soon, I hope. Despite the constraints of the 4' depth of my layout, I think I'm managing to establish a fairly accurate geographical representation. The ponds are too small, and there isn't enough room between the avoiding line and the main lines through the station. However, I think I've worked out a solution for both the rail bridge at the bottom of the layout, and the road bridges (2) over the station track, so that is a relief. The road incline will be severe, but there isn't an alternative.

I don't think I've differentiated between the foam I'm using. The baseboard is 2" extruded foam, and I reallly like it. So, I'm using 1" extruded foamboard for most of the topographical foundation and to support most of the rails - the exception are some inclines where I'm using Woodland Scenics foam. For some areas where there is no track, I'll be using layers of common polystyrene which will be covered with plaster cloth. The rail at the top of the layout will be covered, using extruded foamboard for the tunnel supports and sculpting the top with common polystyrene. Wiltsbury Station, the field in the lower left, and the ponds will be built on thin sheets of foam construction board (Elmer's). That permits me to achieve the right degree of elevation for station in relationship to the platforms. Remember, access to the platforms is via a subway.

I've been watching video and reading what others have done to drop their Feeder and Point wires. The Kato connectors are 1cm wide. I've wondered if I should drill a hole large enough for the connector, or risk removing the wires from the connector. One person said the connector is designed for the wires to slip out by pushing a pin through the two openings in the end of the connector that plugs into the controller (or extension). Any suggestions for how I should proceed?

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: dannyboy on August 11, 2018, 04:38:47 PM
@Leon (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=6724)
If you are using the Kato connectors to plug into Kato equipment, I would drill the holes to take the 1cm connectors intact, it would be a lot easier than 'faffing about' pushing wires out of connectors and then trying to get them back in place! The holes would be easy enough to cover over or you could 'plug' the hole once the connector is pushed through the baseboard. I have cut off the majority of my Kato connectors, as I have the wires wired to individual switches or 'choc-block' connectors, so I therefore only need holes in the baseboard to take the size of the wires.  Hope that all makes sense.
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Train Waiting on August 11, 2018, 04:49:29 PM
@Leon ([url]http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=6724[/url])
If you are using the Kato connectors to plug into Kato equipment, I would drill the holes to take the 1cm connectors intact, it would be a lot easier than 'faffing about' pushing wires out of connectors and then trying to get them back in place! The holes would be easy enough to cover over or you could 'plug' the hole once the connector is pushed through the baseboard. I have cut off the majority of my Kato connectors, as I have the wires wired to individual switches or 'choc-block' connectors, so I therefore only need holes in the baseboard to take the size of the wires.  Hope that all makes sense.


Leon, I agree with David.  By the way, you can often get away with drilling a smaller hole for the power feeds.  The 'Power Unijoiners' are not that big, nor is the little connector that plugs into the 62mm feeder track.  For the turnouts, you will need to drill a 10-12mm hole but this will be completely hidden by the track base.  I regret that I never had any success pushing the wires out of the Kato connectors and have resorted, on occasion, to the 'choc-block' connectors that David mentions.

John
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on August 11, 2018, 05:07:35 PM
@Leon ([url]http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=6724[/url])
If you are using the Kato connectors to plug into Kato equipment, I would drill the holes to take the 1cm connectors intact, it would be a lot easier than 'faffing about' pushing wires out of connectors and then trying to get them back in place! The holes would be easy enough to cover over or you could 'plug' the hole once the connector is pushed through the baseboard. I have cut off the majority of my Kato connectors, as I have the wires wired to individual switches or 'choc-block' connectors, so I therefore only need holes in the baseboard to take the size of the wires.  Hope that all makes sense.


Leon, I agree with David.  By the way, you can often get away with drilling a smaller hole for the power feeds.  The 'Power Unijoiners' are not that big, nor is the little connector that plugs into the 62mm feeder track.  For the turnouts, you will need to drill a 10-12mm hole but this will be completely hidden by the track base.  I regret that I never had any success pushing the wires out of the Kato connectors and have resorted, on occasion, to the 'choc-block' connectors that David mentions.

John


I am 100% Kato track system, so if I don't receive more convincing advice from others in the next day or two, I'll be drilling the holes to take the connectors. Thanks to David and John for their experiences and advice. I WAS rather apprehensive about removing the wires from the connectors.

After a good night, and my previous message, I'm fretting about the tight fit at the top of the layout. *sigh* Alas, it's just not possible to have everything the way we want it. My Biss River station prevents the sloping hill over the tunnel that I'd hoped for. Passengers on the platform will be looking at an almost vertical wall. I'm afraid if I bring the line forward, everything in the middle of the layout will be too crowded - with farm house and buildings across the street from the station! It's tight as is, but at least I can separate the two features with scenery. Everything beyond the Biss River Station is imaginary, anyway, so why am I worrying?

Leon

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on August 12, 2018, 03:57:58 AM
I'm a bit confused about glueing models. Can I use the same glue for both card and plastic? Elmer's is supposed to be good for foam and corrugate board, so I'm assuming it's ok for Metcalfe kits, but I'm not sure if it works for plastic kits.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Innovationgame on August 12, 2018, 06:45:29 AM
I'm a bit confused about glueing models. Can I use the same glue for both card and plastic? Elmer's is supposed to be good for foam and corrugate board, so I'm assuming it's ok for Metcalfe kits, but I'm not sure if it works for plastic kits.

Leon
For plastic kits I use Humbrol Liquid Poly.  You just paint it on with the enclosed brush and it literally welds the pieces together.
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on August 12, 2018, 05:22:07 PM
I'm a bit confused about glueing models. Can I use the same glue for both card and plastic? Elmer's is supposed to be good for foam and corrugate board, so I'm assuming it's ok for Metcalfe kits, but I'm not sure if it works for plastic kits.

Leon
For plastic kits I use Humbrol Liquid Poly.  You just paint it on with the enclosed brush and it literally welds the pieces together.

Laurence, thank you very much! I think Humbrol is a British company, so the prices here are about double. Do you think this Testors product is about the same thing? It's less than the price of Humbrol and I'm at the point of watching my expenditures - still a lot of track to buy! https://www.hobbytown.com/liquid-plastic-cement-1oz-by-testors-tes3502xt/p524859?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIkP2MofTn3AIVAVuGCh0SnQarEAQYAyABEgKf3PD_BwE (https://www.hobbytown.com/liquid-plastic-cement-1oz-by-testors-tes3502xt/p524859?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIkP2MofTn3AIVAVuGCh0SnQarEAQYAyABEgKf3PD_BwE)

You've chosen to use the liquid, brush on, as opposed to the tube. Is there more than personal preference in your choice; i.e. quicker drying?

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: daveg on August 12, 2018, 07:07:03 PM
Pleased to endorse Laurence's recommendation on Humbrol plastic glue.

The brush applicator allows accurate placing of the glue over what can be a 'risky' squeeze of a tube!

Humbrol works quite quickly - about half the time of your plastic cement shown in your link according to Humbrols info:

https://www.humbrol.com/uk-en/liquid-poly-28ml-bottle.html (https://www.humbrol.com/uk-en/liquid-poly-28ml-bottle.html)

Either product, I would think, will last a last a long time so doubt if you'd be breaking the bank with whatever choice you make.

HTH

Dave G
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: RailGooner on August 12, 2018, 07:27:36 PM
Testors liquid cement is fine - all Testors products are fine IMHO. The Plastruct and Tamiya liquid cements on the same page under 'Related Products' are fine too. The Tamiya is my personal preference, mainly because I find the square bottle very stable - spillages have the potential to be disastrous.

Which ever liquid you choose, please do heed the warnings about ventilation and ignition sources.
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on August 12, 2018, 07:48:28 PM
Which ever liquid you choose, please do heed the warnings about ventilation and ignition sources.

I AM a little concerned about the solvent in the glue. I've previously had some serious reactions to inhaling that stuff. I work in a basement room without adequate ventilation for using any kind of chemical, so I suppose I'll have to do my gluing on the deck (outside). Not the best solution, but plastic parts will probably not blow away.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on August 13, 2018, 02:00:18 AM
I continue to be confronted with new discoveries and challenges. Checking out Metcalfe's webstie, I discovered that they figure the average platform to be 4 inches. I've figured 1 1/2 inches for mine! I might be able to find a half inch, but I can't get close to 4 inches. I have the Peco platforms, and at their widest they are 2 1/4 inches and removing the smaller of the three sections, they fit my layout. I'm not sure where that leaves me with the Metcalfe kit, but my presumption is that there is much flexibility - otherwise, I'll be selling a kit and replacing it with Peco.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Innovationgame on August 13, 2018, 06:27:59 AM
I continue to be confronted with new discoveries and challenges. Checking out Metcalfe's webstie, I discovered that they figure the average platform to be 4 inches. I've figured 1 1/2 inches for mine! I might be able to find a half inch, but I can't get close to 4 inches. I have the Peco platforms, and at their widest they are 2 1/4 inches and removing the smaller of the three sections, they fit my layout. I'm not sure where that leaves me with the Metcalfe kit, but my presumption is that there is much flexibility - otherwise, I'll be selling a kit and replacing it with Peco.

Leon
With the Metcalfe kits, you can cut the platform surface to any width and shape you want.  All you need to remember is that you need to allow 10-12mm for the width of the carriage from the track centre, except on curves, but the instructions show how to make curves to fit the track.
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Train Waiting on August 13, 2018, 09:07:39 AM
I continue to be confronted with new discoveries and challenges. Checking out Metcalfe's webstie, I discovered that they figure the average platform to be 4 inches. I've figured 1 1/2 inches for mine! I might be able to find a half inch, but I can't get close to 4 inches. I have the Peco platforms, and at their widest they are 2 1/4 inches and removing the smaller of the three sections, they fit my layout. I'm not sure where that leaves me with the Metcalfe kit, but my presumption is that there is much flexibility - otherwise, I'll be selling a kit and replacing it with Peco.

Leon

I looked at the Metcalfe website, Leon, and it appeared to be using a three inch wide platform in 'N' as an example of how long a platform the kit would make (seven feet).  I agree that three inches is on the generous side for 'N' so I looked at the '00' platform kits on the website and these suggested a three inch width as well!  I then looked at the package for my 'PN1 10 Red Brick Platform' kit.  On the back, it suggests a platform eight feet long by two inches wide or an island platform five feet long by three inches.  If you look on the back of your own kit, hopefully you will see this.

It looks like the website contains a slight error.  As Laurence helpfully reminds us, you can have whatever width you want.  I used 13/4".


Best wishes.

John
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: port perran on August 13, 2018, 09:10:45 AM
I continue to be confronted with new discoveries and challenges. Checking out Metcalfe's webstie, I discovered that they figure the average platform to be 4 inches. I've figured 1 1/2 inches for mine! I might be able to find a half inch, but I can't get close to 4 inches. I have the Peco platforms, and at their widest they are 2 1/4 inches and removing the smaller of the three sections, they fit my layout. I'm not sure where that leaves me with the Metcalfe kit, but my presumption is that there is much flexibility - otherwise, I'll be selling a kit and replacing it with Peco.

Leon

I looked at the Metcalfe website, Leon, and it appeared to be using a three inch wide platform in 'N' as an example of how long a platform the kit would make (seven feet).  I agree that three inches is on the generous side for 'N' so I looked at the '00'  :helpneededsign:platform kits on the website and these suggested a three inch width as well!  I then looked at the package for my 'PN1 10 Red Brick Platform' kit.  On the back, it suggests a platform eight feet long by two inches wide or an island platform five feet long by three inches.  If you look on the back of your own kit, hopefully you will see this.

It looks like the website contains a slight error.  As Laurence helpfully reminds us, you can have whatever width you want.  I used 13/4".


Best wishes.

John
Just as an aside, be sure that any buildings that you might want to add to the platform will fit width wise with plenty of room for passengers to pass without being hit by trains.
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on August 13, 2018, 04:23:51 PM
Just as an aside, be sure that any buildings that you might want to add to the platform will fit width wise with plenty of room for passengers to pass without being hit by trains.

Martin, that's a very good point. Westbury (alias Wiltsbury) has numerous buildings on both platforms, plus the entry/exits to the subway. I stepped off Platform 2, when I was there, at 17 steps. Back in my Boy Scout days, a step was calculated to be about 2 1/2 feet. Someone can figure out the approximate scale width (I can't). I really don't have a viable alternative, if 2 inches isn't wide enough. There just isn't room for me to do much more. I'm about ready to draw a line and declare enough is enough and just build what I can and enjoy it. :) Life is too short, and at this point there isn't time to be a perfectionist.

John, I checked the back of the Metcalfe kit. My feeling is that three inches would be about right, but.... I don't give up easily, so I will probably reconfigure my track plan with AnyRail to provide a three inch platform - just to see what the overall impact would be. I might decide to re-interpret the goods station which could have been located on the NE side of the station, originally. It's photographed on the SW side in the 60s, but at some point the track on the NE side under the road was lifted and the tunnel removed. Martin hasn't been able to suggest what a double track on that side of the station (which also appears in a 60s photo) was used for. For my plan, it would work nicely for a goods station, providing room to widen the platforms!

Leon

Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Newportnobby on August 13, 2018, 04:29:35 PM
Leon - if you look on the Metcalfe website, choose a building and click on the 'scale and size details' it shows you the footprint of the building e.g. the Wayside station is 60mm deep so wouldn't fit on your platform. This info might help or really depress you. Sorry!

https://www.metcalfemodels.com/product/pn138-n-scale-stone-built-wayside-station/ (https://www.metcalfemodels.com/product/pn138-n-scale-stone-built-wayside-station/)
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: port perran on August 13, 2018, 05:00:18 PM
Hi Leon
Those double tracks you refer to allowed access to the up side goods sidings in the 50s and 60s. Goods traffic would use those rails to avoid clogging up the main passenger lines through the station.
Iím sure that ďartistic licenseĒ would allow you to convert thar area to a goods yard.  Sounds a good compromise to me.
Martin
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Innovationgame on August 13, 2018, 05:31:50 PM
Your 17.5 steps equates to 42ft 6in which is 85mm in n scale or about 3.25in.  It's interesting that in the army (including the Roman Army) a pace is left-right and reckonned to be just over five feet, hence a mile (Latin Mille, meaning a thousand) is one thousand paces or 5,280 ft.  So one of your steps may be a little more than 2ft 6in, which would make the platform width 44ft 6in so, in n scale, that would be 90mm or 3.5in.
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on August 13, 2018, 08:00:27 PM
Leon - if you look on the Metcalfe website, choose a building and click on the 'scale and size details' it shows you the footprint of the building e.g. the Wayside station is 60mm deep so wouldn't fit on your platform. This info might help or really depress you. Sorry!

https://www.metcalfemodels.com/product/pn138-n-scale-stone-built-wayside-station/ (https://www.metcalfemodels.com/product/pn138-n-scale-stone-built-wayside-station/)
Mick, thanks! I'm using PN137 Country Station (40mm depth) and it seems to fit perfectly. I cut out the footprint plan and placed it below the rails and it's what I expected. That whole section of the layout is too tight, but it will have to do.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on August 13, 2018, 08:23:06 PM
Your 17.5 steps equates to 42ft 6in which is 85mm in n scale or about 3.25in.  It's interesting that in the army (including the Roman Army) a pace is left-right and reckonned to be just over five feet, hence a mile (Latin Mille, meaning a thousand) is one thousand paces or 5,280 ft.  So one of your steps may be a little more than 2ft 6in, which would make the platform width 44ft 6in so, in n scale, that would be 90mm or 3.5in.

Laurence, that is useful information and confirms my intent to try and find a way to buy an extra inch for my platforms.  Is there no end to layout adjustments? :)

That bit about the Roman measurement was very interesting, too. I'm a tall man, but my steps aren't very broad. Years ago I measured and found they were less than 2 1/2 feet. I think that is a good guesstimate, though.

Thanks so much for your help!

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: keithbythe sea on August 14, 2018, 07:19:23 AM
Hi Leon, good to see progress continuing and do not be concerned about the constant ďminor adjustmentsĒ that are always required.  ;)

Regarding your question about glue you might also consider Revell glue for plastic models. Itís similar to Humbrol creating the joint by ďweldingĒ the plastic. I donít know if it reasonably priced in the US. It has the same solvent smell as Humbrol.
For gluing windows Woodland Scenics produce a specialist glue that is excellent, if you accidentally get some glue on the window it doesnít ďmeltĒ it. I guess their stuff is cheaper over there than it is here.
I wouldnít recommend these glues for card kits. There are specialised glues for those, e.g. Woodland Scenics again.

Hope that this helps.
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on August 15, 2018, 02:58:59 AM
Hi Leon, good to see progress continuing and do not be concerned about the constant ďminor adjustmentsĒ that are always required.  ;)

Regarding your question about glue you might also consider Revell glue for plastic models. Itís similar to Humbrol creating the joint by ďweldingĒ the plastic. I donít know if it reasonably priced in the US. It has the same solvent smell as Humbrol.
For gluing windows Woodland Scenics produce a specialist glue that is excellent, if you accidentally get some glue on the window it doesnít ďmeltĒ it. I guess their stuff is cheaper over there than it is here.
I wouldnít recommend these glues for card kits. There are specialised glues for those, e.g. Woodland Scenics again.

Hope that this helps.

Keith, your comments always provide useful information or assist me to clairify my thinking. The Revell suggestion is interesting. That's the glue I used as a teenager building plastic model planes! I've order the Testor liquid, so I'll try it and if it doesn't bind rapidly enough I'll try Revell - or pay double and purchase Humbrol. Which reminds me that I have numerous tins of Humbrol paint I bought in 1977 or 78 for models that were never built. Do you think they've dried up? :)

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Bealman on August 15, 2018, 04:03:41 AM
You could always open them and find out  ;D ;)

Agree with all comments about plastic cement. Liquid applied by a brush. Forget tube stuff totally.

I have three stations on my layout all built using Peco platform edges, with card, plaster and plasticard infills.
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: keithbythe sea on August 15, 2018, 07:41:37 AM
Iím using Humbrol enamel paint that I bought in the 90ís, still ok. Some say that they are better than the modern paints as the old paints contain substances that are now banned. As George says, give them a try.
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: kelstonlad on August 15, 2018, 09:33:07 AM
I've got a lot of Warhammer enamel paints that I bought in the 90's when my kids were into it (I went with Wood elves, I really wanted Orcs but my son had grabbed that). Apart from the metallic paints, which have turned into solid rocks, the rest of them work fine. Had to add a litte water to some of them . . .

- Andy
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Newportnobby on August 15, 2018, 10:04:42 AM
I still have a shortbread tin full of Humbrol enamels from the 1960s! :-[
Guess I'd better check 'em out/chuck 'em out.
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Bealman on August 15, 2018, 10:35:00 AM
OK.... seeing as we are talking paints,  I bought some stuff from one of those wargamer's shops we unfortunately have here in my home town, and it's the worst stuff I've ever had to deal with.

Difficult to apply, and has to be covered with some sort lacquer to stop the stuff wearing off when it gets on yer fingers!

Back to thread! Sorry!  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on August 15, 2018, 09:15:50 PM
You could always open them and find out  ;D ;)

Agree with all comments about plastic cement. Liquid applied by a brush. Forget tube stuff totally.

I have three stations on my layout all built using Peco platform edges, with card, plaster and plasticard infills.

Bealman, do you have a photo of your platforms? I'd like to see others, also. It's probably going to be a while before I construct platforms, but usually I CAN remember when someone has sent me specific information. I go back in the thread regularly.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Bealman on August 15, 2018, 11:19:22 PM
Just out of bed here in Australia, but I'll post some up for you when I get a chance!  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on August 16, 2018, 12:30:47 AM
I've mentioned a few discoveries while working on my track elevations - principally the width of my platform. I've also cited a few tweeks that I've done to make the layout more consistent with photos of Westbury Station over the years. The plan below represents my efforts to address these issues, and I'm quite happy with the result. But, I've been happy before! If anyone sees ANYTHING that I may have missed, please let me know. I'll need to order more track/points! *sigh*

Martin, the photo on which I've based the re-establishment of the goods station doesn't show a road. This new plan shows the run passing under Station Road parallel to the rails, but I suspect there was a road off Station Road to the right (there is an opening to a residential development there, now) and along the periphery of Frogmore Pond (lake?). Actually, in 1941 there was a smaller pond between the road and Frogmore, but a road could have easily passed between that pond and the rails. Let me know if you concur, but I think that's the way it's got to be. There just isn't room for a vehicular tunnel under the road. Also, you'll notice I've incorporated another of your suggestions (at least what I think you were suggesting) from a while back - extending the north sidings to connect with the Trowbridge line. It seems logical to do that after I added the crossover between Platform 2 and the Signal Box and allows all goods traffic to avoid passing through the station.

Leon

(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/68/6724-160818000018.jpeg)
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Bealman on August 16, 2018, 04:31:20 AM
Ok, as promised here are the three platforms I mentioned earlier. They're not the best pictures, I'm afraid, and for that I apologise. However they hopefully show enough to get the idea.

I seem to remember posting something on these a few years ago, but I can't find that particular post, unfortunately! Also, bear in mind that this is an old layout that was neglected for many years and is currently being renovated.

Peco stone edges with card surface:

(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/67/255-120718061911.jpeg)

Peco brick edges with plaster infill:

(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/albums/Bealman's_Album/Dir_2/main_2228.jpg)

(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/albums/Bealman's_Album/Dir_5/main_8898.jpg)

And Peco brick edging with plasticard surface:

(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/albums/Bealman's_Album/Dir_7/main_21429.jpg)
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: sp1 on August 16, 2018, 01:24:41 PM
Ok, as promised here are the three platforms I mentioned earlier. They're not the best pictures, I'm afraid, and for that I apologise. However they hopefully show enough to get the idea.

I seem to remember posting something on these a few years ago, but I can't find that particular post, unfortunately! Also, bear in mind that this is an old layout that was neglected for many years and is currently being renovated.

Peco stone edges with card surface:

([url]http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/67/255-120718061911.jpeg[/url])

Peco brick edges with plaster infill:

([url]http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/albums/Bealman's_Album/Dir_2/main_2228.jpg[/url])

([url]http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/albums/Bealman's_Album/Dir_5/main_8898.jpg[/url])

And Peco brick edging with plasticard surface:

([url]http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/albums/Bealman's_Album/Dir_7/main_21429.jpg[/url])

Interesting looking layout- have you posted any more about it?
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on August 16, 2018, 05:12:39 PM
Ok, as promised here are the three platforms I mentioned earlier.

Bealman, thanks so much for going to the trouble! The photos were just what I needed and I'll be re-visiting them as I build my own platforms. Right now, the plan is to use a Metcalfe for the Wiltsbury platforms and Peco for the Biss River platforms since I have the kists already. I modified my track plan to give me a little more room for the platforms, so i think I'm fine now, in that regard.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Bealman on August 17, 2018, 06:44:06 AM
No problems, mate.  :beers:

Sp1:

Pm sent. Didn't want to hijack Leon's thread!  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on August 17, 2018, 07:35:48 PM
My Testors liquid cement arrived today, so if we have a wind-less day I may be out on the deck this weekend attempting to model my first card kit. I bought a 1/2" Spade Bit to cut the holes for my point and power feed wire drops. It works perfectly for drilling the extruded foamboard. There seems to be no compromise in the solidity of the foamboard after drilling, but I'm considering inserting a rigid clear plactic tube in each hole. It's not costly, and would not require a lot of work.

I've ordered more track to accommodate revisions to my track plan. With a little luck I may manage to begin gluing foamboard next week. It's at least two weeks since I promised it was going to happen. Since then, multiple alterations in the layout! At the moment, I've limited the use of #4 Kato turnouts on my layout to just three as a result of those alterations, so the delay will hopefully prove fruitful in the long run and save me a few dollars (or at least help pay for some of the track).

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: chrispearce on August 18, 2018, 02:03:50 PM
Your progress sounds great Leon. Go for it. Hope you are enjoying the journey into art, creativity and FUN!.
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on August 18, 2018, 07:10:19 PM
Your progress sounds great Leon. Go for it. Hope you are enjoying the journey into art, creativity and FUN!.

Chris, the art journey I've enjoyed all my life, though not as a creator. Creativity, I doubt that I have. Fun, yeah - if addressing challenges counts as fun. Satisfying it certainly is!

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on August 19, 2018, 01:13:54 AM
I've been reflecting on the money I've spent for this new hobby. For me, a lot! For the first time since I started the layout, my wife has inquired about how much longer I'm going to be buying. :) Good question. My answer? Railway modelling isn't an inexpensive hobby; that's why I waited until now to do it! I'd say that I've spent most of what I budgeted for the next two years, and have most of the things I'll need for a preliminary running layout. At $5 to $15 per pop for items like trees, however, I'll need another good budget for years 3+. For those young guys (and gals) who are able to enjoy this hobby, good for you! You've selected a really great pastime. One that combines a lot of skills and interests. And, to be fair, no more expensive than many other pursuits - including regular outings to the local. :)

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: dannyboy on August 19, 2018, 01:35:39 AM
@Leon (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=6724)
One way to make this hobby of ours a bit cheaper is to make your own stuff where possible. One tip I picked up from this forum was to use grapes for trees. Well, not the actual grapes, but the stalks that are left.  It is surprising how much like trees the bits of stalk can be once they have been put aside to dry. I am forever buying grapes, my excuse being that they count as one of your 'five a day', (fruit and veg'). I have quite a few bits of stalks at home waiting to be turned into trees. All it needs is a bit of dilute PVA glue and, (another tip I picked up somewhere), dried tea leaves that have been left to steep in some food colouring. (Or I suppose you could pay for some scatter  :)). Another thing I have done for trees, (and this is all my own idea - I think!),  is to get a piece of string about 2" in length and unravel about half of it and then leave to soak in some diluted acrylic green or brown paint.  I find that sisal string is a bit better, as it does not take the paint uniformly. It is surprising what you can see just looking round the house that can be used for something on the layout!  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Innovationgame on August 19, 2018, 06:44:50 AM
Thanks for some really good tips, Danny (presumably not PG Tips!).
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Bealman on August 19, 2018, 06:58:20 AM
Woodland Scenics produce white metal tree armatures, but the grape stalk idea is certainly cheaper!

I'm not sure about the tea leaves... I tried it once with not much success. A bag of Woodland Scenics foliage produces many trees. It would work very well with grape stalks.

Use PVA to secure the foliage, then cheap hairspray as a fixative - the cheaper the better! It's stickier!  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Bealman on August 19, 2018, 08:40:27 AM
Oh, and I forgot to mention the added bonus that your trees will smell like cheap perfume.  ;D
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Newportnobby on August 19, 2018, 10:06:57 AM
Here's an excellent, effective and cheap way to make a lot of trees, Leon............

http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=15475.msg153508#msg153508 (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=15475.msg153508#msg153508)
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on August 19, 2018, 05:14:42 PM
Here's an excellent, effective and cheap way to make a lot of trees, Leon............

[url]http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=15475.msg153508#msg153508[/url] ([url]http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=15475.msg153508#msg153508[/url])


Thanks for a great tip, nicely documented with photos!

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Caz on August 19, 2018, 06:22:26 PM
Hi Leon, if you use the search function or look through the "Tutorials" section there are loads of helpful articles in there, here's one I did a few years ago on making cheap hedges using green scouring pads.

http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=8837.msg94270#msg94270 (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=8837.msg94270#msg94270)
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: chrispearce on August 19, 2018, 07:07:47 PM
When can we see some pics of your progress Leon?

:photospleasesign:
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on August 19, 2018, 07:18:46 PM
Hi Leon, if you use the search function or look through the "Tutorials" section there are loads of helpful articles in there, here's one I did a few years ago on making cheap hedges using green scouring pads.

[url]http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=8837.msg94270#msg94270[/url] ([url]http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=8837.msg94270#msg94270[/url])


Caz, excellent tutorial! I've been wondering about how I'll model hedgerows. I'd not seen that subject treated - and you did it very well! One of the most striking things about Somerset (where my son lives) is the hedge rows. I hate driving the lanes bounded by them, but they are a significant element in the countryside, defining the fields, and adding much scenic interest.

I'm assuming that the countryside around Wiltsbury should have hedge rows. Honestly, when I drove down to Westbury I avoided all the roads that might have had hedge rows - or failed to notice them while concentrating on my driving. I've driven from one end of the U. K. to the other - North to South and East to West, and the transition from left hand drive to right hand drive is no problem. Age is, however, so I don't enjoy views the way I once did.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on August 19, 2018, 07:45:12 PM
When can we see some pics of your progress Leon?

:photospleasesign:


http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/67/6724-050818200018.jpeg (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/67/6724-050818200018.jpeg)

Chris, very little of my progress can be seen. This picture, posted previously, hasn't changed a lot. I decided to wait on more track (and points) before proceeding with the landscape. One of the surprises for me is just how inter-related layout modelling is and how one change can affect so many decisions. I received no suggestions after the last post of my track plan, so I'm presuming there aren't any glaring errors. So, when the next order of track arrives I'll mark the points and electrical feeds (for the second time), drill holes for wiring, lift everything, and begin re-laying and gluing the foam "forms". I'll probably, then, do a little blending of foam layers, including all the inclines. This last step may take a bit of time, after which I'll re-lay the track - this time permanently. I'll take photos and post at each step in the process just outlined. No modelling of buildings, yet. I'm anxious for my first experience, but couldn't do the plastic kit outside due to weather conditions, this weekend, and the cardboard kits will await the construction previously outlined. I'm not good at multi-tasking! Kudos to Laurence who is the master! :) My wife says I have a "one track mind" (no pun intended), and she's right!

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on August 24, 2018, 03:11:13 AM
The scale of the ponds in my layout plan relative to the real ones has always been problematical, as they are nothing more than representations in shape and location. They  serve only one purpose - a little scenic relief for the busiest track section of the layout; a water feature like one might have in their garden. Question: Should I delete the ponds from the plan altogether? I now have all the track in place except for one turnout which is on order. I will proceed with the "water features" unless I have compelling suggestions for utlizing the space in another way.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Bealman on August 24, 2018, 03:18:11 AM
I'd be inclined to keep them. Water features always add interest to a layout.  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: keithbythe sea on August 24, 2018, 07:05:26 AM
I'd be inclined to keep them. Water features always add interest to a layout.  :thumbsup:

Seconded!  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Mito on August 24, 2018, 09:15:23 PM
If you have some blue paper, cut it out to the shape of the ponds and place them on the layout to see how they look.
Always if you can't envisage something in 2D then knock up a representation in card or heavy paper. Things very often become much clearer and you will know if they're going to fit or not.
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on August 24, 2018, 11:48:52 PM
If you have some blue paper, cut it out to the shape of the ponds and place them on the layout to see how they look.
Always if you can't envisage something in 2D then knock up a representation in card or heavy paper. Things very often become much clearer and you will know if they're going to fit or not.

Thanks, Mito! I don't have blue paper, but I did cut out the shape of my pond nearest to the station to the largest scale I could fit. It looks alright, but if one could walk out of the modelled station and throw a stone across the pond it might hit a passing train on the avoiding line! :) The actual pond is large enough for a youth yacht club, and the station would fit on an island in the middle. As with other things, though, I've had to compromise. If leave the pond in the layout it will look alright, just rather squeezed between the station and the avoiding line. As I proceed with the layout it's disappointing when I have to diminish a feature relative to its surroundings and I start doubting myself.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Mito on August 25, 2018, 05:27:50 PM
You are suffering from a problem that the majority of modelers suffer from, lack of space. It's difficult to decide what to model and what to leave out but still keep faithful to reality. That's one advantage of modeling a fictitious location. The location can be fitted into the space you have. So long as it looks right it probably is.
Keep on tweaking and suddenly all will be clear. You'll get there sooner than you think!
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on August 25, 2018, 08:24:53 PM
You are suffering from a problem that the majority of modelers suffer from, lack of space. It's difficult to decide what to model and what to leave out but still keep faithful to reality. That's one advantage of modeling a fictitious location. The location can be fitted into the space you have. So long as it looks right it probably is.
Keep on tweaking and suddenly all will be clear. You'll get there sooner than you think!

My layout is looking more and more like a fictitious location! :) It will look just fine, I think, despite the tight quarters around the main station, and the short, steep incline of the road over the rails.

Today's issue is electrification. I was marking electrical feeder tracks before drilling holes and decided I should double check polarity by running a loco. The outer track of the avoiding line worked fine, but I've been unable to feed electricity to the inner track. The only difference between inner and outer is the right turnout for traffic into the station on the inner track. It was working fine the last time I ran the locomotives, so I've no reason to think the point is the problem. I suspect having connected and disconnected the track many times there is perhaps a loose connector somewhere. I'm at the point where I have to move forward, even if I make a mistake and have to redo something, later. Right now, it's on with glueing down foam elevations and drilling holes for the point wires. I'll leave the feeder holes until later.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on August 26, 2018, 07:04:02 PM
Feeling rather good, today. Two steps forward, and I stopped before taking a step back! The points were all marked for drilling wire drop holes and the track lifted and carefully placed in boxes for another day. Lots of topographical modelling before I lay the track - permanently. I've ended up with a total of twenty points. Could I have achieved an acceptable result with fewer? Probably. I'm only going build one layout, though, so I've done it my way (strains of Sinatra!). Others may disagree, but I think it's easier to remove parts of the layout than to find places to add new features. Having said that, I guess finding room for additions usually will require removal of something! So, maybe the two go together. Next job - drilling holes and glueing down the basic elevations. At the moment, there are six layers with the final one to be added at the top of the layout. The final elevation will require approximately 10mm more height, but for interest may rise slightly higher in places. That's all folks!

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on August 28, 2018, 03:11:32 AM
Great days.
Only a tiny insight but I hope it gives a flavour of the area in the early 60s. Maybe Iíve made scant mention of diesels but we saw many as the 60s progressed. I copped all the Hymeks, Warships and Westerns plus many early Brush Type 4s and Class 37s. As well as Class 33s from the SR.
Fabulous days and great fun.
Oh.....and I forgot about the pennies on the line. I had them for years but alas they are gone now.
Regards
Martin

Martin, I've been re-reading some earlier posts in my thread and really enjoyed yours! I've enjoyed all of them, but you're the resident authority for Westbury and Trowbridge, so naturally every memory you relate is of greater interest - in the context of my layout.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Bealman on August 28, 2018, 03:42:35 AM
Getting back to your ponds, Leon, Mito is quite correct.

All railway modelling is compromise. Things have to be compressed because we all have a finite a mount of space available.

Some modellers have achieved awesome results using forced perspective.

As Mito says, if it looks right, it is right.  :beers:
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on August 28, 2018, 04:31:39 PM
Getting back to your ponds, Leon, Mito is quite correct.

All railway modelling is compromise. Things have to be compressed because we all have a finite a mount of space available.

Bealman, thanks for your reassurance! Encouragement helps me to keep pushing ahead. Not today, though. The weather forcast is for 100F+ and intolerable humidity. I can already feel it just sitting at the computer, so I'll have a day off.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Caz on August 28, 2018, 07:15:44 PM
My layout is looking more and more like a fictitious location! :) It will look just fine, I think, despite the tight quarters around the main station, and the short, steep incline of the road over the rails.

Leon

I find so long as you have the flavour of the place you are trying to model then in my book, that's ok, Claywell & Bampney my portrayal of the Fairford Branch is a case in point, not strictly accurate but has the important buildings and gives all the operationally correct running and I'm happy with that.   ;)
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: port perran on August 28, 2018, 07:31:06 PM
Leon.
Space precludes an accurate imprssion of Westbury as it has such a large operational railway area. You would need a huge space to make a truly accurate portrayal of the whole scene.
What you are doing, as others have said, is to create as good a representation as you can in the space that you have available. To that end, I feel that you are doing well. If that means that the various lakes (they are referred to locally as mineholes by the way) need to be much smaller than they actually are then so be it.
Keep up the good work.
Martin
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on August 29, 2018, 04:56:38 PM
The heat is sweltering, so I'm chilling out this week. That means a bit more time for reading and checking out other threads in this Forum. Also, I've been able to do a little online research. While doing the latter, I came across this page - https://www.model160.com/scale-and-unit-convertsion-tool/. (https://www.model160.com/scale-and-unit-convertsion-tool/.) I wish I'd had it earlier, but will still use it extensively in the future. Laurence was able to assist me when I was needing a conversion, previously, but I don't like to ask for every measurement.

Incidentally, we recorded at least 99 degrees, yesterday, and it was a couple degrees hotter in Boston. VERY humid!

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: njee20 on August 29, 2018, 05:00:45 PM
Be aware that website converts at 1:160, whilst British N gauge is 1:148 (US/European is 1:160 and Japanese is 1:150).

It is a simple mathematical conversion though - divide any measurement by 148 for its equivalent in N gauge. You may obviously want to convert units too (say feet into millimetres), for which Google will instantly give you the answer.

So a 57' coach would scale to 0.385' in N gauge, or 117.4mm.
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on August 29, 2018, 06:02:30 PM
Be aware that website converts at 1:160, whilst British N gauge is 1:148 (US/European is 1:160 and Japanese is 1:150).

It is a simple mathematical conversion though - divide any measurement by 148 for its equivalent in N gauge. You may obviously want to convert units too (say feet into millimetres), for which Google will instantly give you the answer.

So a 57' coach would scale to 0.385' in N gauge, or 117.4mm.

Njee, I think my 14' bridge clearance would be 32mm in U.K. N Scale compared to 27mm in American N Scale. Does that seem right to you? I know it's simple to many (most?), but I have to confess my brain doesn't compute that well anymore. To give you an example, I can check out a number on the compter and if I don't write it down I've forgotten it (or am uncertain) by the time I can apply it to my layout. *sigh* I knew the difference in scale - U. K. vs American, but didn't realize it made that much difference. :) I think I'll be more careful in future, dividing the prototype size by 148 and converting the result to mm in Google.

Thanks for making me more aware of the difference between 1:160 and 1:148 in real terms!

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Hiawatha on August 29, 2018, 09:09:33 PM
Leon, the difference is much smaller than 7 mm!

14' is 4.27 m
427 cm / 160 = 2.668 cm, so your calculation of ca. 27 mm is correct here.
However, 427 / 148 = 2.885 cm, so about 29 mm.

Your calculation of 32 mm would translate to a much larger scale of 1:133.5.
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: njee20 on August 29, 2018, 09:58:03 PM
Yep - Hiawatha's right! There's less than 10% difference between the two, so you can sense check any measurements on that basis.
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on August 29, 2018, 10:12:59 PM
Leon, the difference is much smaller than 7 mm!

14' is 4.27 m
427 cm / 160 = 2.668 cm, so your calculation of ca. 27 mm is correct here.
However, 427 / 148 = 2.885 cm, so about 29 mm.

Your calculation of 32 mm would translate to a much larger scale of 1:133.5.

Like I said, my mind doesn't do math very well. :) What more can I say? I will try to say more, though. :) 14 ft. divided by 160 = 0.0875 feet converted to mm = 26.67.  14 ft. divided by 148 = 0.0945945946 converted to mm = 28.83243243408. Did I do it right this time? Hope I can remember when I start building the incline from my road to the Salisbury railbridge. :)

Thanks to all who are helping! The difference between the N Scales in this case doesn't seem to matter so much - if I did the math right this time, but I'd rather keep everything 1:148 if I can. More importantly, though, I'm reassessing my elevations! If I only need 29mm clearance for the road, I can lower my avoiding line by nearly 20mm. I've previously had a 50mm clearance for the road. That would be a significant improvement.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: njee20 on August 29, 2018, 10:17:12 PM
Spot on  :thumbsup:

As you say - in this instance it doesn't matter that much, and things like bridges will obviously not have a 'standard' clearance. If you (for example) build a building to 1:160 it's likely to be more obvious though alongside 1:148 equivalents.
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: dannyboy on August 29, 2018, 10:20:36 PM
@Leon (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=6724)
The following, whilst not being a calculator, but a conversion chart, may be of use -

http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/23/main_25991.xls (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/23/main_25991.xls)
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Innovationgame on August 30, 2018, 06:48:27 AM
I must say that I tend to use 2mm to the foot, which is a good approximation for buildings and structures.  1:148 converts 14' to 14*304.8/148 = 28.8mm, 2mm to the foot converts to 28mm and 1:160 converts to 14*304.8/160 = 26.7mm.  So, if it's not concerned with track and gauge, there's little difference between any of them.  The real scale for 9mm gauge (4' 8.5'') is 1:153.8, whereas 2mm to the foot = 1:152.4, which is still quite close. 
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: keithbythe sea on August 30, 2018, 07:39:36 AM
Iím with Laurence, using 2mm to the foot for buildings and scenic stuff. However, for track clearances it pays to check with rolling stock that you have or intend to have. I nearly came unstuck with a road overbridge which was ok for wagons and coaches but was too low for my rail crane.
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: daveg on August 30, 2018, 07:47:12 AM
How about making a list of important measurements you can stick on the wall or pin board so you've got quick reference while you need that info?

I have all sorts of bits of info Blu-Tak'd to the railway room walls. My main stumbling block is wiring up DPDT switches so there are sketches I can refer to when my mind (quite often) goes blank.

Dave G
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on August 30, 2018, 05:04:41 PM
Thanks to Laurence, Keith, and Dave for their contributions to this thread in general, and their suggestions for dealing with scale. I think I can remember 2mm to the foot! :) Maybe? The adjustment I'll make to the railbridge over Station Road is going to help a lot to soften the steep incline of that road over the station rail lines. I've always known the clearance was more than necessary, but I hadn't done the arithmetic.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on August 30, 2018, 09:39:31 PM
I came across an American web site for paper/card modelling - http://clevermodels.squarespace.com/. (http://clevermodels.squarespace.com/.) I know about Scalescenes, but didn't find it was quite as helpful. Maybe I didn't spend enough time on the site. Can anybody speak from experience to the quality of Scalescenes models and the their instructions? Clevermodels has really good general guidelines for modelling in paper/card.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Mito on August 30, 2018, 11:52:47 PM
I use Scalescenes downloads and find them complex but of good quality. The instructions are very clear. They are downloadable in N so no scaling is required. The link to the American site is interesting but all their downloads are in HO or O scales so will need reducing. Also they are American architecture.
https://www.3dk.ca/ (https://www.3dk.ca/) is a Canadian firm producing some British outline kits but again they are in OO or larger scales.
(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/68/3659-160818211702-681962006.jpeg)
This is one of their kits, their dairy, modified with a couple of additions.
Because the larger scales may not fit onto an A4 sheet they are printed in two or more parts. I cut and paste each part of the kit I want to use, scale it and lay the parts out onto an A4 sheet. If you don't understand, I'll try and explain another time. It's way past my bedtime now!
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on August 31, 2018, 09:40:58 PM
I use Scalescenes downloads and find them complex but of good quality.

Mito, your dairy looks to be an excellent model; well constructed. And, I can see it must have been complex. I think I understand the cutting and pasting to fit on an A4 printout. Our standard printer size is 8.5" x 11". I suppose their kit plans will fit that size. The American site, Clever models, is good for their thorough explanation of paper/card modelling. I've read it once, but will need to read it again before I start my first kit. Their buildings look really good, but, as you noted, of little use to us. I found the site while looking for N Scale brick sheets (either card or plastic). Their brick looks good to me, and I'll probably stick with card. I've a few plastic kits, but am not enthused about building one.

Today was foam glueing day for me! As will be tomorrow, and probably Sunday. It's not much fun, but I can see some form developing, finally.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Mito on August 31, 2018, 10:35:39 PM
Leon,
Try one of Scalescenes free downloads in N. A4 paper is smaller than American letter paper so it will print out without any problems. If you make a mess of it, don't worry. Print out another copy and eat another box of cereal. :)
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: ColinH on August 31, 2018, 11:42:18 PM
I cut and paste each part of the kit I want to use, scale it and lay the parts out onto an A4 sheet. If you don't understand, I'll try and explain another time. It's way past my bedtime now!

Mito Do you mean you cut and paste parts of the downloaded pdf file that you receive from Scalescenes on the computer. Would be interested to know how you do this as the files I receive are pdf(secured).

I print out the full sheets that contain the parts that I want before cutting the relevant parts and then pasting to the relevant weight card before constructing. Cutting the pieces first, with a small extra margin saves a lot of wasted card.

As you say they can be complex kits with numerous small parts but do make a good model if you take your time and follow the instructions. IIRC there is also a general guide/tips for making card models on the Scalescenes site.
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on September 01, 2018, 02:06:15 AM
Leon,
Try one of Scalescenes free downloads in N. A4 paper is smaller than American letter paper so it will print out without any problems. If you make a mess of it, don't worry. Print out another copy and eat another box of cereal. :)

Mito, thanks for the suggestion. I've already downloaded one of the Scalescenes kits, but haven't examined it carefully. I'm trying to concentrate on finishing the elevations of my layout and permanently installing the track before getting started with modelling buildings, etc.

Clevermodels suggests using 34# paper/card for N Scale. Have you a preference? And, I presume your reference to "another box of cereal" is a suggestion to paste the paper cutouts onto that thickness of card. I've thought about using foamboard. Any thoughts on that?

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Mito on September 01, 2018, 02:45:30 PM
Leon,
I use four different thicknesses of card, depending on what the finished model will be.
1mm and 0.5 mm greyboard.
 This is similar to the grey card that supports tear off pads but a better quality. I seal it on both sides with a 50/50 mix water PVA (white) glue. I use a quality fast setting glue.
Cereal packet card. To knock up a trial to see if it fits. Just the walls and roof. Don't bother cutting out the windows.
220grm/m2 for finer sections.
80grm/m2 paper. Both of these I use a good quality card/paper.
I would imagine that there are different measurements here and in USA. 34# paper means nothing to me. Perhaps there is someone else who could enlighten us.
I cut and paste each part of the kit I want to use, scale it and lay the parts out onto an A4 sheet. If you don't understand, I'll try and explain another time. It's way past my bedtime now!

Mito Do you mean you cut and paste parts of the downloaded pdf file that you receive from Scalescenes on the computer. Would be interested to know how you do this as the files I receive are pdf(secured).
Scaling is only necessary if you have a kit in a different scale. Scalescenes have kits in N so therefore no scaling is necessary.
If you want to scale something then there are two ways of doing it.
From a PDF file print it at a percentage. To scale from 00 to N I scale it at 53%. 76/148x100.
The other method is to use a program that will convert a PDF file. I use Gimp which reads PDF files and once loaded I can cut what I want and paste it into a new file for printing.
There are programs available for unlocking secured PDF files.
I now have a laser printer which I use for the final print. I also have an ink jet printer I use for drafting. I use cheap inks, they are not good quality but sufficient. They will fade or change colour if left in bright light.
I hope this helps.
The first card kits I built were consigned to the rubbish bin but slowly I'm improving. It's the shaky hands that are the problem now.
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Mito on September 01, 2018, 02:52:24 PM
Leon, just an after thought. modeltrainsoftware.com (http://modeltrainsoftware.com) is an American company which you may find useful. I think Scalescenes has a module that links into this program.
Cheers.
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on September 01, 2018, 08:30:46 PM
It's the shaky hands that are the problem now.

Mito, for me it's the eyes. I see great at a distance, but close work is another matter.

In the U.S., paper is weighted; i.e. 20 pounds is the most common printer paper, though I've preferred 24 pound (grams per square meter is the standard universal measurement of paper weight, I believe). Thirty-four pound paper is used for speciality printing - like certificates. I think Clevermodels suggest 80# for OO scale. Eighty pound cover is a heavy cardstock, commonly used for business cards.

I'm hoping to build my first Metcalfe model soon, and I'll definitely post a photograph of the finished product (though with some embarrassment, no doubt). I'm happy to put virtually anything on the layout at the beginning, but will hope to improve my modelling skills with practice. Hopefully I'll live long enough to consign a lot of things to the bin, as I seek to improve the layout!

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on September 03, 2018, 07:55:46 PM
It's Labor Day in the U. S. of A. and I'm laboring away with measuring, cutting, and pasting foam board of all types and thicknesses. As usual, I've underestimated the job, so I'll be at this for the remainder of the week, no doubt. I haven't even started the inclines! When they're completed I'll post a photo. Until then, just trust me that I'm doing a little every day. :)

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Mito on September 03, 2018, 08:49:37 PM
I trust you, I think  :worried:  but expect a photo at the end of the week to confirm my trust :)
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: chrispearce on September 03, 2018, 09:28:55 PM
 :photospleasesign:

I am off on holiday to Cornwall tomorrow and I don't have internet access unless I go to the library in Truro. I look forward to seeing your progress Leon. In lieu of being in a position to build my own layout I love seeing other peoples' progress on this forum. Trials, tribulations and all! :wave:
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on September 03, 2018, 11:42:25 PM
:photospleasesign:

I am off on holiday to Cornwall tomorrow and I don't have internet access unless I go to the library in Truro. I look forward to seeing your progress Leon. In lieu of being in a position to build my own layout I love seeing other peoples' progress on this forum. Trials, tribulations and all! :wave:

Chris, you're getting the "ALL" from me! :) Except, perhaps enough photos. I promise those will be forthcoming when I've something to show. I'll be expecting comments and suggestions when I do, for there will be plenty of scope for improvement. I hope you'll benefit from following my tribulations, and I'm sure I speak for others.

Enjoy your holiday in Cornwall. I envy you! It's been many years since I made my one trip to Cornwall. It was much too brief and too long ago.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on September 04, 2018, 06:23:19 PM
My impression is that going forward it's going to become more and more difficult for modellers of pre-WWII layouts to find new rolling stock. It's just not commercially viable, I presume, as new modellers inevitably have no memory of the steam era. I had wanted to model a Scottish railroad but knew there would be few ready-made items on the market reflecting rail operations in that part of the U. K. Completely understandable, given the relatively small population of Scotland compared to England and Wales. I guess LNER and LMS didn't rely as much on coal from Scotland as the GWR did for coal from Wales (giving Wales a disproportionate railway visibility). There were, no doubt, other considerations and my presumption (unresearched) is that Caledonian, and perhaps other regional railroads, continued after Grouping. Perhaps I'm wrong, but I'm sure I saw locomotives of the Caledonian and other railways in the Edinburgh Caley Station in 1961-62. Just reflecting. :)

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on September 08, 2018, 05:15:34 PM
I promised to provide photos by the end of the week. I guess that's today! I'm embarrassed by how little progress I've made, but I am satisfied with where I am at this time. Cooler weather will allow me to do more, I hope. I've posted several photos at https://photos.app.goo.gl/vFWignoSTWAJxXEJA (https://photos.app.goo.gl/vFWignoSTWAJxXEJA) . This link will provide access to my Railway Layout album now, and anytime you have an interest in viewing. I'll eventually have all my photos in the album in chronological order. This isn't a priority, though, so it may be a while.

The first picture, below, shows the completed track plan, including 21 points (I miscounted the first time) and 6 feeder rails. I will add 5 feeder connectors when I lay down the track permanently.

(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/68/6724-080918164038-68806576.jpeg)

The second photo shows the full layout with all major elevations in place, except for about 8 inches at the top which will rise slightly for the tunnel returning the main, avoiding line. I will try to create a little interest at the top (back) of the layout by varying the topography somewhat, but there is little need for a lot of height as the foundational elevations you see have anticipated 50mm tunnel clearances.

(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/68/6724-080918164129-688151.jpeg)

Finally, the last photo is a little closer shot for a better impression of the variations in elevation. The whiteboard has cut-outs for the two ponds; the one closest has a pink board underneath, so it's somewhat clearer. The road will run between the two ponds, but not in a straight line. It will curve from the bottom toward the pond at the lower right and straighten to pass over the rails entering the station. You will also see a cutout of the station footprint which provides a little perspective.

(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/68/6724-080918164108-688121806.jpeg)

My next step will be to soften the sharp division between board thicknesses, fill cracks and gaps with Great Stuff foam sealant, and add the inclines (the part I thought would be in place before providing these photos). With the inclines in place, I will re-lay the track; dropping the wires for points and feeder rails. This may be another slow step, as I was unable to get power to the inside oval before lifting the rails. It could be that the rails just need cleaning, but I have to check every connection closely and there are a lot - given this is set track with a lot of points. My plan is still to use plastic tubes under the points and feeder rails for dropping the wires - not really necessary, but I was impressed by a video by a modeller who did this on his layout. The time and cost is minimal providing a cleaner look - even if I'm the only one who will see it!

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: dannyboy on September 08, 2018, 05:30:01 PM
Looking good Leon.  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: daveg on September 08, 2018, 06:08:28 PM
Decent progress by the looks of things, Leon.  :thumbsup:

I have used drinking straws to help run droppers through to the underside of the board. It does save the frustration of the bare ends catching on the foam.

Dave G

Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: port perran on September 08, 2018, 06:43:46 PM
Leon.
That all looks extremely good to me.
Looking forward to more updates.
Martin
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Mito on September 08, 2018, 08:24:17 PM
Leon.
That all looks extremely good to me.
Looking forward to more updates.
Martin

And to me too. Very professional. It might not look as if you've done a lot but that is a big step forward. Well done :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on September 11, 2018, 01:28:10 AM
Despite the attempt to buy only wagons that would have been running pre-WWII, there have been a few for which I could find no information. I bought Volumes 1-4 of Private Owner Wagons by Bill Hudson and the first two (two and four) were delivered, today. I've just looked at the pictures but didn't see too many that I've seen as models. Nevertheless, the books are a wealth of knowledge and should be helpful for identifying appropriate wagons in the future.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: keithbythe sea on September 11, 2018, 06:59:21 AM
Looking good Leon.  :thankyousign:  :beers:
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on September 12, 2018, 06:46:06 PM
I had my first experience with Great Stuff (liquid foam) today. I'm not a DIY person, so don't read too much into what I'm about to say. I watched a video of George Fifer (?) demonstrating it and thought it looked easy enough to try. And, foolishly, I thought I could avoid some of the mess he made. Wrong! The only good thing about it is the quick setting, but for me, that was also a disadvantage. Cleaning up was an unpleasant experience, too, but isn't that always the worst part of most tasks? I started with the intent of just practicing and observing the outcome before continuing. I ended up doing most, if not all, of my gaps and cracks. It's just such a mess I don't want to do it again if that is even possible. As many will know, Great Stuff is an adhesive and once it's on something it's not coming off completely. I can't see how the plastic applicator will not be irreparably clogged.

When the Great Stuff cures (8 hours, I believe), I'll have a job removing a huge amount of excess, but I'll be ready to glue my inclines - which have been prepared. I'll then paint everything with my GWR chocolate and begin relaying my track and dropping wires. I'm planning a week for that after which I'll post a photo! There's still a huge amount of work on the topography remaining after the track is laid. I had thought Great Stuff could be used to blend the changes in elevation, but I'm not likely to try it after today's experience! I'll be using Foam Putty and Plaster Cloth for that. The tunnel is the largest part of the topographical base remaining to be built. That should not be too challenging (have I said that before?), but I've got a few alternative ideas to resolve before starting.

Happy modelling! :)

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: port perran on September 12, 2018, 06:52:36 PM
Itís good to experiment  and learn Leon.
I know nothing about Great Stuff but judging from your experiences it perhaps isnít so great!
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Mito on September 12, 2018, 08:29:41 PM
i don't know if this is any good to you but these are methods I use.
To glue polystyrene together use ordinary white glue with tooth-picks or kebab sticks pushed through for support and strength.
For contours, aluminum mosquito mesh. It can be cut with scissors. Don't use the plastic variety, it's too inflexible. It is easily folded into any shape you want and is self supporting over short spans. For longer spans, newspaper crumpled up to help support the contours. Cover it with a cellulose filler or plaster. At the end it's like re-enforced concrete and is strong and rigid. It takes acrylic paints well.
There are many other methods but this works for me.
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on September 13, 2018, 08:04:20 PM
i don't know if this is any good to you but these are methods I use.
...
There are many other methods but this works for me.

Mito, thanks for taking the time to provide some construction tips. The toothpick suggestion is a good one. I've been using foam pins but didn't want to leave them in place when I cover the foam inclines (Woodland Scenics) with plaster cloth. My layout will not have rocks or peaks, but mainly flat sections at varying elevations with rolling hills over and behind the tunnel, so I doubt the aluminum mosquito mesh will be needed, but it does sound like a very good idea. I have a good supply of Woodland Scenic materials - Lightweight Hydrocal, Scenic Cement, Plaster Cloth, and Foam Putty. Also, an abundance of Liquid Nails and Elmer's Glue (PVA adhesive).

I'm ready to start removing the Great Stuff foam. That job will take a lot longer than the application! Maybe I'll feel differently after I'm finished, but right now Great Stuff doesn't seem so great to me - for modeling.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: port perran on September 13, 2018, 08:14:57 PM
Hi Leon.
If you are only making slight undulations why not use polystyrene packing material roughly cut to shape then covered with grout or plaster?
Itís what I do and it works for me.
Regards
Martin
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on September 13, 2018, 09:38:41 PM
Hi Leon.
If you are only making slight undulations why not use polystyrene packing material roughly cut to shape then covered with grout or plaster?
Itís what I do and it works for me.
Regards
Martin

Martin, thanks for the suggestion. I have tons of 1/4" and 3/4" polystyrene sheets. I've used some already topping the more dense foam board. My plan is to build the tunnel using the dense board and layer it with the white, lighter weight polystyrene to create the undulations. I'll still use the plaster cloth as a topping and the Hydrocal lightweight plaster for smoothing between the undulations. (There will also be a few modest elevation changes in the middle and right side of the layout.) I think that's basically what you've suggested. If there are other tips for clarifying or extending your methodology, please let me know. I'll look back to your thread and view your photos, again, focusing on the elevations of your layout.

The excess Great Stuff wasn't as difficult to remove as I'd feared. If my applicator isn't clogged beyond redemption I'll maybe even try it again for some areas that will require a lot of fill. Great Stuff cures to a rubbery consistency, so much of it can be cut horizontally and peeled off. It can be scraped or sanded where necessary. I'll make that decision at another stage.

I had some glued foamboard lift after more than enough time to cure. Maybe I wasn't generous enough with the Liquid Nails, though I thought I was using too much. I used books for weights as I don't have clamps. I'm not a handyman (as I keep saying) so I don't have the tools many of you take for granted, and I'm determined to not spend money on things that will never again be used!

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: port perran on September 13, 2018, 09:47:05 PM
Hi Leon
If you look at the early threads for Tregonning it should give an idea as to how I made my hills etc.
Martin
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Mito on September 13, 2018, 09:58:33 PM
Another idea which has just crossed my limited mind is polyurathane foam. Cheap, very messy when first sprayed but very light and workable. Put some newspaper on the ground and simply spray the foam into an oval mess. It will expand considerably and a light spray of water while it's still in liquid form will help it cure. When it has hardened it can be cut with a bread knife, but don't let your wife catch you raiding the kitchen :no:
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on September 13, 2018, 10:03:50 PM
Another idea which has just crossed my limited mind is polyurathane foam. Cheap, very messy when first sprayed but very light and workable. Put some newspaper on the ground and simply spray the foam into an oval mess. It will expand considerably and a light spray of water while it's still in liquid form will help it cure. When it has hardened it can be cut with a bread knife, but don't let your wife catch you raiding the kitchen :no:

Mito, I think your liquid polyurathane foam must be the same as Great Stuff! See my previous posts. I can see how that would work, and never gave a thought to using it that way. Thanks for the suggestion!

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Mito on September 13, 2018, 10:22:09 PM
I don't think it's the same stuff. It cures rigid and if crushed has a crumbly texture. I buy mine from a builders merchant for about 5Ä, what ever that is in funny money :)  It expands to about 70 litres. I haven't got any at the moment so I can't send you a photo of the can but I'll send a photo tomorrow of the results.
It's better than expanded polystyrene as there are no little beads of foam that get everywhere when it's cut.
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: chrispearce on September 14, 2018, 09:05:19 AM
That's a LOT of progress, Leon.  :claphappy:
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on September 14, 2018, 07:36:32 PM
That's a LOT of progress, Leon.  :claphappy:

Thanks, Chris! I'm not sure about progress, but it's a lot of work for an old guy.

I guess you're home from your holidays. Hope it was relaxing and/or exciting - or, preferably, both!

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: chrispearce on September 14, 2018, 08:14:11 PM

I guess you're home from your holidays. Hope it was relaxing and/or exciting - or, preferably, both!

Leon

It was very pleasant thanks. Got to ride my new mountain bike along an old railway line, went sea fishing with a friend in his boat and nearly got dashed on The Manacles, bought a new mobile phone and sorted out a mortgage. All good and productive fun!  :laugh3:
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Mito on September 15, 2018, 05:44:39 PM
Leon, this the polyurethane foam I use. I found an old used can to show how I buy it.
You use the can upside down.
(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/69/3659-150918174337.jpeg) (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=69061)
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on September 15, 2018, 06:38:38 PM
Leon, this the polyurethane foam I use. I found an old used can to show how I buy it.
You use the can upside down.

Mito, thanks for the image. It looks pretty much the same as what I've used, though I opted for black. There could be a difference in consistency, of course. I mentioned mine being rubbery, but after further curing, it's possible that might have changed. Your example and Mike Fifer's UTube Great Stuff look the same, to me. Mike used white, like you. I thought black would cover better when painted, and that has proven itself already.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on September 15, 2018, 06:40:14 PM
In preparation for re-laying my Kato track, I cut rigid plastic tubes (1/2" interior diameter) to accommodate the connectors for feeder and point wires, applied a small amount of Liquid Nails to the outside of the tubes and inserted them into the holes previously drilled. I like the result. It's tidy, and though I'll never know if it made a substantive difference, I feel like there's added support for the baseboard and layers of foam. The time and cost of doing this were negligible. To anyone who hasn't read my early posts in this thread, my baseboard is extruded polystyrene (Owens Corning Formular). It cuts well, is solid and strong, and very lightweight. I've used the same board for every area of the layout supporting rails (at varying elevations), and I'll be using it for my tunnel support, which will be over nine linear feet. Otherwise, my construction is and will be white foam and plaster/plaster cloth.

I'll re-lay the track a section at a time, beginning with the outer oval to test my electrical feeds and my inclines. I'm allowing a few days for this, to allow for solving an electrical issue I was previously unable to resolve. When I know the electrics are working and my trains can negotiate the inclines, I'll finish off all the rail sections and glue them down.  Ballasting can wait! Unlike the excellent examples I've seen on this Forum, my plan is to take a holistic approach rather than completing one scenery feature at a time. It's just the way my mind works! :) For example, I've got a lot of foam structure to add, and a lot of surface preparation, but before re-laying the track I wanted to see the layout in one color, so I painted everything. It wasn't necessary, obviously, but the numerous colors of foam made it difficult for me to view the layout as a single "canvas".

That's where I am, and I'll post a photo when I've made a little more progress.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on September 17, 2018, 01:35:19 AM
My track has been laid down, again, but my locomotives initially would not run! I tried two, 5768T and 6044 Earl of Dunraven, and neither would work. I had power momentarily on the outer (down line) double track followed by controller short circuits. I made a few alterations to my feeders after which the 5768T still doesn't run. The 6044 runs beautifully, as does 1420T. Could I have damaged the 5768T? I can't recall clearly, but I think I had some issues with it when I last tested it.

Just a reminder - I'm 100% Kato and am using 3-way extension cords. I'll explain my electrical connections as they exist at the moment. I have five track feeders - two at the top left of the layout and two at the bottom right of the layout, plus one for the line below the mainline at the top left. There are two controllers, one at the top left feeding the oval (main line) and the third line (which merges with the main line at the top), and the one at the bottom right feeding just the oval (main line). The directions that came with the 3-way extension cords weren't really clear to me, so I've just had to experiment. My locos have now run well (except for the non-runner) on both up and down lines. I suspect that I had one or more of the feeder tracks pointed the wrong way, but can't explain why the 5768T will not run after making alterations. That loco will be put aside for now. Hopefully, I'll eventually add locomotive maintenance to my skill set, but don't have time for it now; too many new skills to learn! I'll post an image of the track layout tomorrow with the feeder track identified. I've still six power feeds to add. These will be for the sidings and to provide power between the insulated double crossovers. No point gluing track and proceeding with anything else until I'm confident the trains will run. It is, after all, a railway layout. :)

Thanks, in advance, for your observations and advice.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: chrispearce on September 17, 2018, 01:48:24 AM
Gremlin hunting is part of this infernal business. Track cleaning is another.
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on September 17, 2018, 03:18:54 AM
Gremlin hunting is part of this infernal business. Track cleaning is another.

Chris, I don't know anything about track cleaning, so I just rubbed my Peco track cleaner on all the rails. I did that early on, and it wasn't the answer. :)

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on September 17, 2018, 03:22:47 AM
Actually, model railway electrification is not unlike computers. Both are unforgiving; what goes in is what comes out. My ignorance went into adding the feeders and nothing came out.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Innovationgame on September 17, 2018, 06:33:08 AM
Please remind me, Leon.  Are you DC or DCC.  If you're DC then the loco must be faulty.  If you're DCC then you need to check the loco ID on the program track.
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on September 17, 2018, 05:52:10 PM
Please remind me, Leon.  Are you DC or DCC.  If you're DC then the loco must be faulty.  If you're DCC then you need to check the loco ID on the program track.

Laurence, I'm DC. I'm amazed and full of admiration for those of you doing DCC. It would have been a challenge for me as a younger man and can't imagine trying to learn now. I'm full of envy, though. :) I wasn't smart enough to make notes when I tested my locomotives. There was one from the get-go that didn't want to run. I think it must have been the 5768T. I think you commented at the time that it probably needed some lubrication. Eventually, I'll try that, but just can't let myself get sidetracked now. There's too much construction and landscaping still to do. My son is bringing me a Grange Class from England at the end of the month, so I have plenty of trains to run - when I get to that stage with my layout. Frankly, I bought the tank engine just because I love the Pannier style, not because I needed it. I even bought an OO Pannier for display! I think I saw a display locomotive in your shed - Royal Scot? I have one in front of me as I type. :)

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: port perran on September 17, 2018, 06:34:21 PM
Hi Leon
Firstly, I know nothing of Kato and my electrical skills and knowledge or just about zero but.....the easiest way to identify problems seems to me to revert to absolute basics. Keeping things very simple to start with reaps dividends.
First, do you have any spare track?
If so connect a single controller to a reasonable length of track. Position your locos (one at a time) on the piece of track to which the power feed goes. Test the loco. If it moves ok then the loco  is fine. If it only  moves on the bit of track to which the power feed goes then the problems relate to the connections between individual pieces of track.
Secondly take a single loop on your layout. Attach a single power feed at some point on your loop. Set all points in favour of the loop so the loco can run around the entire circuit. If this works ok then add a second or third power feed to the same loop. See if that works?
Iíd suggest trying that for starters. Then we can look at any other problems bit by bit.
Martin
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Mito on September 17, 2018, 06:40:13 PM
Hi Leon
Firstly, I know nothing of Kato and my electrical skills and knowledge or just about zero but.....the easiest way to identify problems seems to me to revert to absolute basics. Keeping things very simple to start with reaps dividends.
First, do you have any spare track?
If so connect a single controller to a reasonable length of track. Position your locos (one at a time) on the piece of track to which the power feed goes. Test the loco. If it moves ok then the loco  is fine. If it only  moves on the bit of track to which the power feed goes then the problems relate to the connections between individual pieces of track.
Secondly take a single loop on your layout. Attach a single power feed at some point on your loop. Set all points in favour of the loop so the loco can run around the entire circuit. If this works ok then add a second or third power feed to the same loop. See if that works?
Iíd suggest trying that for starters. Then we can look at any other problems bit by bit.
Martin

You beat me to it!! Good advice above.
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on September 17, 2018, 07:41:17 PM
Thanks to Martin and Mito! We, newbies, overlook some of the simplest solutions, don't we? Still, I think I worked it out the long way around. My locomotives were running on the main line, yesterday. I didn't test the inner rails because I've got to install another feeder rail and five Terminal UniJoiners (power feeders) to compensate for the double crossover insulators. I'll get that done in the next few days.

The image below shows the feeder rails and I've noted how they will feed to three controllers. This is a work in progress and may change a bit. My idea is for Controller #3 to manage the sidings. I suppose so long as the points between the main lines and the sidings are closed I can do that? Kato does have a component to control power to specific areas of the layout and I may decide to use it.

(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/69/6724-170918191936.jpeg)

I'm considering abandoning my effort to model Biss River Station on Trowbridge. There just isn't room for any realistic representation beyond the station and church. If I take that route, I may leave the back (top) of the layout open - except for the top corners which would still feature tunnels. No reason not to keep the rails at the back underground, but I rather like seeing the trains in the background. Just thinking.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Innovationgame on September 17, 2018, 07:43:15 PM
I think I saw a display locomotive in your shed - Royal Scot? I have one in front of me as I type. :)
No, it's Flying Scotsman, bought for me from a charity shop, together with a Panier Tank sculptured from coal (yes, coal).
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Mito on September 17, 2018, 08:40:47 PM
Leon, I think I understand what you are trying to. Using controllers 1 and 2 you want to be able to run trains from anywhere to somewhere. Am I correct? Now I'm not an expert and know nothing about Kato points but I wonder if incorrectly set points will cause a short circuit if you are using both controllers. The way round this is cab control. The link below will explain it better than I and is the bible for many modelers.
http://www.brian-lambert.co.uk/ (http://www.brian-lambert.co.uk/)
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: dannyboy on September 17, 2018, 09:01:44 PM
together with a Panier Tank sculptured from coal (yes, coal).

A bit like this?

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Classic-Steam-Train-Locomotive-Model-Made-From-British-Coal/223077851404?hash=item33f079e10c:g:-p0AAOSw97xbWzKt (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Classic-Steam-Train-Locomotive-Model-Made-From-British-Coal/223077851404?hash=item33f079e10c:g:-p0AAOSw97xbWzKt)
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on September 18, 2018, 12:53:20 AM
I think I saw a display locomotive in your shed - Royal Scot? I have one in front of me as I type. :)
No, it's Flying Scotsman, bought for me from a charity shop, together with a Panier Tank sculptured from coal (yes, coal).

Sorry, Laurence. I thought I'd seen a red locomotive in your shed. I have the Flying Scotsman, also, so that may be why I was confused. The Flying Scotsman adorns a bookcase in my bedroom. I'm never far away from railway reminders. :)

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on September 18, 2018, 01:00:03 AM
Leon, I think I understand what you are trying to. Using controllers 1 and 2 you want to be able to run trains from anywhere to somewhere. Am I correct? Now I'm not an expert and know nothing about Kato points but I wonder if incorrectly set points will cause a short circuit if you are using both controllers. The way round this is cab control. The link below will explain it better than I and is the bible for many modelers.
[url]http://www.brian-lambert.co.uk/[/url] ([url]http://www.brian-lambert.co.uk/[/url])


Mito, I think you're right and I'm working to try and understand the way around this. I'll be looking at the link you provided, but have just now read your post. One idea, that I've already been thinking about, is to operate the down line with Controller #1 and the up line with Controller #2. I just need to switch the wiring. Controller #3 would continue to operate the sidings (which I presume would need to be isolated). Your thoughts?

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: dannyboy on September 18, 2018, 08:08:22 AM
@Leon (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=6724)
If the sidings are totally isolated from the rest of the layout, then there should be no problem using a separate controller. Like the way things are shaping up.  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Innovationgame on September 18, 2018, 08:19:44 AM
If you want to move trains to and from the sidings and from UP to DOWN or vice versa, you will need each of the three track sections to be able switch between controllers.  That doesn't mean you'll need nine switches but, at least,  the sidings controller should be able to move trains out onto the main line.  You need to be careful to ensue that the controllers are isolated from each other at all times.  It may be that you'll have one or more buffer sections that can switch between sidings and main.
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Mito on September 18, 2018, 08:23:36 PM
I think before you modify any wiring you've done have a read of the relevant sections in the link. Brian Lambert explains things very clearly and it will help you understand things better.
Cab control is a very good way to control an infinite number of sections with an infinite number of controllers but no matter how simple you want it but you must know where on the layout you want them and what train movements you want to make. The joys of model railways, it doesn't half exercise the grey matter. :)
One other thing about using two controllers on the two circuits, it's quite possible to pass a train from one circuit to the other but make sure the controllers have the same polarity when the train passes from one to the other. Now how do I know that? :doh:
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on September 18, 2018, 09:28:55 PM
Laurence and Mito. Thanks for the help. I'm understanding part of what I'm reading and will read the link to Brian Lamberts tonight.

My best problem-solving skills are trial by error and process of elimination -slow, but usually successful! I have to remind myself that I'm not in competition with time, and the problem solving is part of what attracted me to this project in the first place. Yesterday, my locomotive stalled on the inner (up) line at the point on the right side of the layout for entrance to the station and at the top double crossover. Obviously, something was obstructing the electrical flow between the two points. I should have checked the rail connectors first, but instead, I left it until nothing else worked. There WAS a missing rail connector. Now the loco can complete its journey! And, I'm satisfied to move on to the next problem. :)

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: dannyboy on September 18, 2018, 09:36:43 PM
the problem solving is part of what attracted me to this project in the first place.

That is what makes this hobby of ours fun!   ;)  I have lost count of the number of times I have found some circuit or other is not working. I check all the connections until I get to a choc-block and find that I have screwed down onto the insulation, not the wire. You would think after the first once or twice I would have learnt to check the choc-block first!  :no:
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Innovationgame on September 19, 2018, 06:33:25 AM
together with a Panier Tank sculptured from coal (yes, coal).

A bit like this?

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Classic-Steam-Train-Locomotive-Model-Made-From-British-Coal/223077851404?hash=item33f079e10c:g:-p0AAOSw97xbWzKt (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Classic-Steam-Train-Locomotive-Model-Made-From-British-Coal/223077851404?hash=item33f079e10c:g:-p0AAOSw97xbWzKt)
Yes, but mine was £1.00 from a charity shop.
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on September 19, 2018, 03:57:50 PM
Yes, but mine was £1.00 from a charity shop.

You can't beat charity shops for bargains. I visited a lot of them back in May/June in hopes of finding railway models. I never found a single one, but I've seen one charity shop selling railway models on eBay. The prices were greatly inflated, in my opinion, for used models. Even though it's for a good cause, I will not pay as much for a used locomotive as a new one (only a slight exaggeration)! I'm not interested in buying "antique" models for investment, and that seems to be happening a lot. I think the model railway market has been good for a long time, but I fear it's overheated at the moment (i.e. the price for the Earl of Dunraven locomotive I bought in the spring has increased significantly, already) and prices are likely to take a tumble in the relatively near future.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on September 19, 2018, 09:28:26 PM
One other thing about using two controllers on the two circuits, it's quite possible to pass a train from one circuit to the other but make sure the controllers have the same polarity when the train passes from one to the other. Now how do I know that? :doh:

Mito, I've been reading Brian Lambert, and it is a clear explanation of layout electrification - most of which I understand. My oval, which represents the avoiding line at Westbury, simulates Paddington to Weymouth on the down line and Weymouth to Paddington on the up line. My intention is for trains on the avoiding lines to use the double crossover at the top and two additional points (one at the top and the other on the right side) to enter and exit Westbury station before continuing to their destinations. I can't achieve this without the two lines having different polarities. There has to be a way to achieve my expectation, and it may require insulating some of the rails and adding additional feeders with on/off switches. I suspect I'll be studying this for a while to find a practical solution! Your assumption of my intent for a locomotive to move between any two points on the layout was correct. There will be a local autocoach running on the line between Wiltsbury and Biss River, a passenger train running in one direction on the avoiding line, and a freight running in the other direction. Additionally, there will be two or more shunting locomotives on the sidings (mineral wagons north and south of the station and goods wagons/vans on the east side of the station). Achieving all of this is just another challenge! :)

Reiterating, I'll be the sole operator of three controllers. I have just two hands, so obviously I can't run more than two locomotives at once, except when two are running (in opposite directions) on the avoiding line (I can then run my shunters). When I need to cross over a line with opposite polarity I have to be able to halt one train and switch polarity. I don't know precisely how to do this, but I think I can figure it out - with a little help from my "friends"!

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on September 19, 2018, 09:53:49 PM
  the sidings controller should be able to move trains out onto the main line.  You need to be careful to ensure that the controllers are isolated from each other at all times.  It may be that you'll have one or more buffer sections that can switch between sidings and main.

Laurence, thanks for your input. I understand (I think), generally, how to isolate rails using on/off switches to avoid short circuits when moving locomotives from one polarity to another. I wasn't sure what you meant by the last sentence in your post. Is a buffer section just another way of describing an isolated section? I think I can work it out, eventually, but I concede that it's not going to be easy.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Innovationgame on September 20, 2018, 06:40:30 AM
Yes, I meant a section that could be connected to either controller.
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on September 21, 2018, 04:36:25 PM
At 1 a.m this morning, I may have finally "gotten my head around" the electrical issues on my layout. It's quite simple, really. All tracks will be wired with the same polarity and trains operated with three Controllers. Controller 1 will operate the DOWN line trains on the avoiding loop. The polarity of Controller 2 will be reversed for the operation of trains on the avoiding loop and into and out of the station. For the DOWN line trains to enter the station, the UP line train will be halted (the track reverting to the original polarity), and the DOWN line train will crossover at the top double crossover, using the UP line (now switched back to the original polarity) to enter the station at the right turnout on the right side of the layout. Departure from the station will use the left double crossover to continue back to the DOWN line (avoiding) at the top of the layout. Both UP and DOWN line trains may be in the station simultaneously, but only one can be moving. This arrangement will be totally acceptable for my operational plan. Additionally, the Biss River line and all sidings will be controlled by Controller 3 with those sections isolated. So, as previously stated, my passenger and freight trains can run continuously on the main lines while I'm running the Biss River autocoach service or shunting on the sidings. If I've missed something, I'll sort it out via trial and error. :) Meantime, I'm confident to proceed.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Innovationgame on September 21, 2018, 07:30:32 PM
I'm having a job to get my head round all that.  :dunce: :-[
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: port perran on September 21, 2018, 07:40:05 PM
Sorry Leon . You lost me there.
Itís a bit like when I was growing up in Trowbridge. My friend lived at a house on the Down (No 11 The Down).
Trouble was to get to the down I had to go uphill  :doh:
As a 10 year old, I never quite grasped that!

Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: dannyboy on September 21, 2018, 07:43:39 PM
Well I got my head round it all okay. Trouble is the muscles in my neck and shoulders are in knots now!  :)
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Newportnobby on September 21, 2018, 08:15:50 PM
Meantime, I'm confident to proceed.

Leon

Now that bit I understood :dunce:
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on September 21, 2018, 08:47:32 PM
The part I don't understand is how I can spend 15-30 minutes crafting a reply, click Post, and lose my message! :) This has happened to me a few times.

So sorry, folks! I'll try again later. I ended the lost post with the statement "It's crystal clear to my muddled mind!"

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on September 21, 2018, 09:48:46 PM
Mito, did you understand? Your contribution was largely responsible for getting me to where I am now. :)

One more try. All of my track is wired the same way, so all locomotives will travel in the same direction. Clearly, this isn't acceptable, except for the Biss River line where I'll only operate the autocoach push-pull service (even though I know it's a mainline and other trains do run in both directions). For the trains to Paddington, I'll have to reverse the polarity of Controller 2. That can be done with a Kato Power Direction Control, or more simply, by changing Forward and Reverse on the Controller. At that point, I've enabled UP traffic to Paddington on the main/avoiding line of my layout. When Controller 2 isn't live, Controller 1 can move the DOWN traffic anywhere on the layout that isn't isolated. The sidings will be isolated and wired to Controller 3.

I think that's it. I'm sorry I was so verbose with my previous explanation. I've apologized for that before, but still convinced that two paragraphs are better than two sentences when trying to explain complex issues.  :)  I'm just guilty of sometimes making simple issues complex, I guess.

If my muddled mind has short-circuited and produced a flawed solution, please let me know! There is probably a more sophisticated solution, but as I'm using Kato and not soldering, simple trumps sophisticated.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Innovationgame on September 22, 2018, 06:38:26 AM
The part I don't understand is how I can spend 15-30 minutes crafting a reply, click Post, and lose my message! :) This has happened to me a few times.

So sorry, folks! I'll try again later. I ended the lost post with the statement "It's crystal clear to my muddled mind!"

Leon
In my early days on the forum, I lost quite a lot of posts so, if I'm writing a substantial post, I write it in Word first and then paste it into the reply window.  Also, I usually check the preview before hitting the Post button.
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Mito on September 22, 2018, 04:23:42 PM
I appologise profusely for getting you where you are now! :). I normally am on the forum last thing at night when the grey matter says it's bedtime. If you have come up with this solution then I would try it, see if it works for you. Because you have a plug in system, if there are problems it's just a question of replugging in elsewhere. I'm sorry I can't be more specific. You have reached the stage where theory ceases and practice takes over. This would be my next step. Try all the permutations you are intending to make, and if successful great.
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on September 22, 2018, 07:06:25 PM
I appologise profusely for getting you where you are now! :). I normally am on the forum last thing at night when the grey matter says it's bedtime. If you have come up with this solution then I would try it, see if it works for you. Because you have a plug in system, if there are problems it's just a question of replugging in elsewhere. I'm sorry I can't be more specific. You have reached the stage where theory ceases and practice takes over. This would be my next step. Try all the permutations you are intending to make, and if successful great.

Mito, I like your advice! I'm of the same mind. I've more time than anything else and don't mind trying different alternatives. Yesterday, I went back to AnyRail and tried several different track modifications. In the end, I reverted to the existing track plan, but it was time well spent as it gave me more confidence that I can make modifications as I go along. When I start fitting my roads and buildings into the layout I'm sure there will be some forced changes.

Kato limits creativity and flexibility, but for a person my age without previous serious modelling experience it is a lot simpler and easier.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Mito on September 22, 2018, 08:37:45 PM
I read somewhere sometime ago that model railwaying can reduce the likelihood of developing Altzheimers and improve mental agility. It must because of all the different facets of the hobby.  Many of us here are in or about to enter our second childhood, some I think haven't left their first one. :no:
The most important thing is to enjoy and have fun in what you are doing. Making mistakes and learning from them is an important part of the hobby. Whilst I might appear to know something, there is an awful lot about which I know little or nothing, such as Kato track.
If there is anything else you would like me to confuse you with, don't hesitate to ask! :D
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on September 22, 2018, 11:44:42 PM
If there is anything else you would like me to confuse you with, don't hesitate to ask! :D

Mito, let there be no mistake, I wasn't accusing you of putting me in a state of confusion! Actually, I didn't feel confused, just concerned that I'd confused everyone else. :) I could very well be wrong, and my mind can easily be muddled, however. I'll continue to ask a lot of questions, here, but will try to not be a burden to any one person.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Mito on September 23, 2018, 05:56:09 PM
You are no burden to me. I'm just glad that I can help with what knowledge I have and enjoy doing so.
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: dannyboy on September 23, 2018, 06:37:44 PM
I don't think anybody is a burden on the forum. We are all here to receive - and give if we can - knowledge.  I know my account is still in the red!  :beers:
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on September 23, 2018, 08:52:05 PM
I don't think anybody is a burden on the forum. We are all here to receive - and give if we can - knowledge.  I know my account is still in the red!  :beers:

All comments, advice, and guidance are gratefully appreciated. I've little to give, at this time, so the best I can do is document my progress - and travails in hope that it will be useful to others just beginning the journey. I'll blame my verbosity on that. :)

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on September 23, 2018, 09:12:32 PM
It's amazing the effect of supply and demand - and three crazy bidders! :) I've just paid 23.70 Pounds for a used 20 Ton Toad Brake Van 'GWR, Bewdley' By Graham Farish No 377-375A! That's a record price paid by me for a used wagon/van, and I hope I never break it! I know, though, that they're relatively rare in the marketplace - or have been for a few months, for I've regularly searched. I did find another one (which I also bought) for a third of the price of this one, and let another one go for a price well below what I paid today. I justify this purchase because I know and trust the seller.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on September 23, 2018, 11:54:59 PM
Does anybody have experience with LMS Class 4F 0-6-0 Loco 4232 By Graham Farish No 1841?

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on September 26, 2018, 09:01:04 PM
Does anybody have experience with LMS Class 4F 0-6-0 Loco 4232 By Graham Farish No 1841?

Leon

I guess no one owns or has owned the LMS 4F. There is one for sale that I'm interested in buying. I just like the looks of it, and have no idea if it would be appropriate to run on my GWR layout. I've read The Southern Handbook and The GWR Handbook by Wragg, but I'm still unclear to what extent trains from one railway ran on the rails of another - at least in 1938-41. I did read that at some time in the early 20th century Southern had a regular passenger service to Bristol Temple Meads - from Portsmouth, I think. To what extent would one have seen goods trains from a "foreign" railway?

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Innovationgame on September 27, 2018, 06:43:23 AM
Trains from Portsmouth to Bristol were still running right up untill the 1980s if not beyond.
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: weave on September 27, 2018, 08:58:48 AM
Hi,

Prob doesn't help Leon much but the Portsmouth train in the '80s to Bristol went on to Cardiff. Remember it well as one of the few times I saw a diesel.

 I think they stopped the service for a while (not sure when) but it's still going today. There's one at 9.27 am if you're quick  :D. Takes 3 hours 25 mins but stops at Westbury  :)

Cheers weave  :beers:
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: port perran on September 27, 2018, 09:21:13 AM
That 4F wouldnít have appeared at Westbury at any time unlessit was a VERY rare visitor.
They did operate not far away on the Somerset and Dorset line from Bath to Bournemouth and on Midland lines in the Bristol area though.
Through freights from the South coast to westbury and beyond were common but frequently changing locomotives at Salisbury (particularly in your modelling period).
The South Wales to Salisbury locomotive coal train was a good example seen on a daily basis. Normally it would be hauled by a GW 2-8-2T or a 2-8-0 through to Salisbury.
Passenger workings between Bristol and Portsmouth  exist to this day. In your era they would normally change engines at Salisbury. There was , however, a daily route familiarisation run (involving a normal service passenger train) which saw SR locomotives run right through from Salisbury to Bristol (and back again).
But.....that 4F would have been a very rare bird if one ever did appear at Westbury. Iíve certainly have never seen a photo of one there (and Iíve seen countless photos).
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: port perran on September 27, 2018, 09:39:12 AM
The 4Fs are lovely little locos though.
Rule 1 says you can justify one so go ahead and buy it.
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on September 27, 2018, 02:57:55 PM
The 4Fs are lovely little locos though.
Rule 1 says you can justify one so go ahead and buy it.

Thanks to the three people who took the time to respond to my questions about locomotives on "foreign" rails. I've mentioned that I have a Southern locomotive. I also have four Pullman coaches. So, I'll probably have the Southern pulling the Pullmans through Wiltsbury from Bristol en route to Southampton! The locals won't bother, I'm sure! :) As for the LMS loco, I have a bunch of empty private owner mineral wagons that need to collect another load from the West Midlands. A 4F just happens to be available near  Southampton! Maybe it will travel by night! :)

Martin, thanks for confirming my impression of the 4F. The seller is expecting a price that may be beyond my limit. Nevertheless, he's an honest seller (the one I bought the Toad Van from) so I'll be willing to pay more than I would, otherwise. I sure like that Rule 1, and the guy that wrote it! :D I'm not surprised by your verdict about the presence of a 4F in Westbury. Thanks, again, for an expert opinion. I like to know the historical context, even when I circumvent the facts on my layout.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on September 29, 2018, 09:05:25 PM
Madness!   UNION MILLS MODELS N GAUGE CLASS D11 4-4-0 LNER 2680 "LUCY ASHTON" STEAM LOCO
Condition:Used
Ended: Sep 29, 2018 , 2:36PM
Winning bid:GBP 104.89

This locomotive is a non-runner! You British must have more money than you know what to do with! :) I suppose the buyer is a person with the ability to make it run, and it is a lovely model, but ....

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on October 01, 2018, 06:27:36 PM
I've finally been able to run in my "Earl of Dunraven". Nice model - so far. I'll be anxious to check it out with coaches but may wait until I have all the track set permanently. I've completed all the inclines but will need to lift the tracks on the inclines to complete the banks. Will be doing that in the course of this week.

My son arrived with my freight locomotive, Dapol 6820 Kingstone Grange. The plan is for him to inaugurate that loco this afternoon so it should be ready to run with a load later in the week.

Slow progress, but progress nevertheless.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on October 02, 2018, 07:15:25 PM
My son arrived with my freight locomotive, Dapol 6820 Kingstone Grange. The plan is for him to inaugurate that loco this afternoon

Leon

My Kingstone Grange was removed from the box for the first time yesterday and the tender wheels supplying power were askew. Very timidly, I applied just a wee bit of pressure and they popped into place. Two or three circuits of the layout and the loco limped to a stop (not literally). A loud whirring noise signaled that something isn't right. I'll be talking to Hatton's tomorrow! When the locomotive was removed from the box, a straight piece of plastic (about 17mm x 4mm) fell out. It didn't appear to be part of the packaging, so I'm scratching my head. It seems that it doesn't matter too much from which manufacturer one buys. My Graham Farish "Earl of Dunraven" ran perfectly from the beginning and is still the quietest locomotive I've bought, but to Dapol's credit, my ND004 14xx :GWR Shirtbutton: 1420 has run perfectly, also. The final judgment for all three locos is still some time away, though, after I've been able to run them with loads. These three are the only new locos I've bought, but some of my dicey ones are Graham Farish including the one that died!

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: port perran on October 02, 2018, 07:33:47 PM
I imagine that piece of pladtic is the drive shaft.
Itís designed to come out and connects the drive in the tender to the loco.
It literally slips into the groove in the tender and locates in the groove in the loco cab.
If you canít work it out, Iíll try to take a photo for you.
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on October 02, 2018, 09:27:37 PM
I imagine that piece of pladtic is the drive shaft.
Itís designed to come out and connects the drive in the tender to the loco.
It literally slips into the groove in the tender and locates in the groove in the loco cab.
If you canít work it out, Iíll try to take a photo for you.

Thanks, Martin! I'll check it out before I phone Hatton's.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on October 03, 2018, 06:49:04 PM
It's over three weeks since I've shared a picture of my layout, so here are a few photos taken today that will show that I've made a little progress. The first shows the full layout from the stairway. The others I'll share whenever they appear in my gallery. Basically, they show close-ups of different parts of the layout. There's not much to add, except to say that by running my locos I'm working out minor tweeks to the layout before gluing everything down. I've not begun the terrain at the back (top) of the layout which create visual interest and cover the rails (tunnel). The pink foam you see in this picture is to hold up the track that will eventually disappear through a cut in the back of the layout.

Leon

(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/69/6724-031018183222.jpeg)
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: dannyboy on October 03, 2018, 06:53:56 PM
Looking good Leon.   :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on October 03, 2018, 07:08:00 PM
Looking good Leon.   :thumbsup:

Thanks, David. I tried bulk upload for the six photos, but that doesn't appear to be working. I'll add them one at a time, I guess.

One of my other interests is genealogy. My ancestors (Lowe) appear to have emigrated from Ireland to the Liverpool/Manchester area in the early 19th Century. Do you happen to know any Lowes in Ireland?

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: dannyboy on October 03, 2018, 07:21:26 PM
@Leon (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=6724)
Sorry Leon, the only 'low' I know is what the cows do in the fields surrounding my house! Seriously, neither Louisa nor myself know that surname, but you might be related to -

"Galway has reared some notable military men. One of the best known is Sir Hudson Lowe, a distinguished officer, who, as the jailer of Napoleon at St. Helena, of which he was governor,"

I did a bit of genealogy a few years ago and got back as far as the 1820's. My late Mother did tell me about some problem involving a relative who may have murdered his wife and when checking, did find a man of the right surname who had murdered his wife in the early 1900's if I remember correctly, but struggled to find any more information, apart from the fact that he was hanged at Armley Gaol! His address at the time was in an area where a lot of my Mothers relatives lived.   :hmmm:
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on October 03, 2018, 07:48:28 PM
@Leon ([url]http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=6724[/url])
you might be related to -
"Galway has reared some notable military men. One of the best known is Sir Hudson Lowe, a distinguished officer, who, as the jailer of Napoleon at St. Helena, of which he was governor,"[/i]


Some family history we don't want to know! :) I've two close relatives that spent time in prison, but we can't choose our relatives! I'm happy to claim Sir Hudson Lowe, however! :)

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on October 03, 2018, 08:03:00 PM
(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/69/6724-031018195433.jpeg)

(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/69/6724-031018195830.jpeg)

(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/69/6724-031018195947.jpeg)

(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/69/6724-031018200059.jpeg)

The state of the layout.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Mito on October 03, 2018, 09:12:35 PM
All looking good :thumbsup:
I know nothing about Kato track but in the last photo you have a short straight in the curve. Would it be possible to modify it so that the curve is continuous? Nothing wrong with it as is, but it might improve the visual aspect.
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: keithbythe sea on October 04, 2018, 07:49:41 AM
Looking good Leon.
Itís quite a big layout, so plenty to do. What Iím trying to say is that it will take some time to terraform....  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Newportnobby on October 04, 2018, 10:12:58 AM
It's coming along very well and looks very impressive, Leon.

in the last photo you have a short straight in the curve. Would it be possible to modify it so that the curve is continuous? Nothing wrong with it as is, but it might improve the visual aspect.

I'd second that
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: kelstonlad on October 04, 2018, 10:37:31 AM
That's a lot of work you've done, nice to be able to see all the basic features taking shape.
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: chrispearce on October 04, 2018, 04:07:15 PM
Looks excellent Leon. Your vision is becoming reality. After all your research and planning you deserve this!  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on October 04, 2018, 06:11:15 PM
All looking good :thumbsup:
I know nothing about Kato track but in the last photo you have a short straight in the curve. Would it be possible to modify it so that the curve is continuous? Nothing wrong with it as is, but it might improve the visual aspect.

Good point, Mito. I didn't like it, but using set track has drawbacks and this is one. Finding pieces that fit is often not easy. That's why I'm having to use a couple of flexible straight pieces (on the right side) - to make the ovals work. Kato doesn't make a flexible curve, but I'll take another look and see if I can find a different combination of track pieces that will work. Believe me, I've spent many hours with AnyRail trying to work out problems like the one you point out. Sometimes, however, I've gone back after making other changes to the layout and found a solution. Thanks so much for your input!

One mitigating factor, the track enters a tunnel at the end of the straight which will soften the visual impact.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: dannyboy on October 04, 2018, 06:17:44 PM
@Leon (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=6724)
If you feel up to it, Kato curves and straights can be made a bit flexible by cutting the plastic ballast with a fine tooth saw - from underneath - as far as the underside of the rail. I have created gentle 'S' bends by doing this.
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on October 04, 2018, 06:44:16 PM
One mitigating factor, the track enters a tunnel at the end of the straight which will soften the visual impact.
Leon

Unsurprisingly, there was a solution. Whether it's worth lifting the incline and re-gluing (and buying more track) is now the question - given the mitigating factor I mentioned in the last post. I'd love to have opinions.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: weave on October 04, 2018, 07:00:48 PM
Hi Leon,

If you've got a tunnel mouth at the end of the straight then leave it be.

Cheers weave  :beers:
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: dannyboy on October 04, 2018, 07:08:23 PM
I am inclined to agree with weave, if the tunnel mouth is at the end of the straight, (or near enough), leave it as it is.

Addit: Got the PM - thanks.
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: cornish yorkie on October 04, 2018, 09:14:19 PM
 :hellosign:  :greatpicturessign: Thanks for the updates Leon, excellent progress
   regards Derek.
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Mito on October 04, 2018, 09:15:54 PM
If there's going to be a tunnel there then as said, leave it but put the tunnel mouth on the straight bit to give the impression the track goes straight on. We've all got to be con men to convince ourselves that we are dealing in virtual reality. :confused2:
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on October 04, 2018, 10:45:43 PM
Thanks, everyone, but Mito's suggestion was apt. The track plan was greatly improved by replacing the straight with a wide curve. I'm not sure that a curve entering a tunnel would have looked right, though. So, as all have agreed, the tunnel improves the layout, visually. I can now go on to the next difficulty, which may be the placement of buildings on a VERY narrow strip of land. I've placed eight unpainted resin buildings on the layout and there isn't much room for a road, fields or anything else!

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Mito on October 05, 2018, 08:26:51 PM
 :photospleasesign:
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on October 06, 2018, 07:20:48 PM
:photospleasesign:

Mito, you asked for photos; I suppose to see the space occupied by the buildings in my layout. I used your request to justify taking time to run the trains, again, and to include them in the photos. More lessons learned! (i.e. - My autocoach doesn't like the sharp turn on the right. It's maybe more to do with the short wheelbase of the locomotive.)

The pictures shouldn't need a lot of interpretation, but as there are no railroad buildings I'll identify the rails from bottom to top; down avoiding line, up avoiding line, coaling stage, engine shed, goods station (right side), Salisbury - Bristol line (through the station to Biss River), and the up and down lines (Paddington - Weymouth) through the station. The masking tape is to identify the right-of-way of the main road and station roads.

Once again, the bulk upload didn't work for me. The pictures WERE uploaded, but where they went I don't know! So, I'll upload them individually later today.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on October 07, 2018, 12:04:30 AM
These are the photos promised. A lot of misfits among the rolling stock, but I've placed the trains (and solo locos) as they will run when the layout is complete. I'll add another two or three locos, and replace the ones with post-WWII livery, eventually. I've got a lot of new coaches and wagons but didn't want to un-box them now. The buildings are placed somewhat randomly to provide some perspective but will likely be elevated a bit. The top 8" of the layout will rise about 5" above the Biss River track to accommodate the tunnel and provide visual interest. At some point, I'll add a scenic board at the back and on the sides, but probably be content with sky and clouds.

Leon

(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/69/6724-061018234154.jpeg)

(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/69/6724-061018234526.jpeg)

(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/69/6724-061018234729.jpeg)

(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/69/6724-061018234924.jpeg)

(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/69/6724-061018235055.jpeg)

(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/69/6724-061018235242.jpeg)

(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/69/6724-061018235423.jpeg)

(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/69/6724-061018235555.jpeg)

(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/69/6724-061018235719.jpeg)
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: chrispearce on October 07, 2018, 06:52:35 AM
 :greatpicturessign: :thankyousign:

Looking good Leon.  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: GreyWolf on October 07, 2018, 07:48:54 AM
Impressive looking layout! Am following along with the developments ... so please keep the pics coming, ta.

Cheers  :beers:
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Bealman on October 07, 2018, 07:53:45 AM
Wot they said  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: daveg on October 07, 2018, 09:30:17 AM
Nice set of photos showing good progress, Leon.

When you do get around to producing a backscene - sky and clouds can look great - see if you can make the rear section curve around the sides rather than a 90 degree join. That can make a big difference as you may have seen here. To my chagrin, I failed to do that and it still nags at me!

Dave G
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Bealman on October 07, 2018, 09:57:02 AM
Totally agree. I'm guilty of the same thing, and it's reasonably easy to facilitate, as NewportNobby demonstrated in his layout Beltchy  ;)
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Bealman on October 07, 2018, 09:59:25 AM
Oops, Bletchford.  :D
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Newportnobby on October 07, 2018, 10:40:26 AM
I couldn't quite manage to curve the corners of my backscene so made them on the diagonal and it still looks better than the 90 degree corners so often seen
http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=22084.msg280387#msg280387 (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=22084.msg280387#msg280387)

I believe Laurence (innovationgame of this parish) has curved backscene corners so have a look at his layout
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Mito on October 07, 2018, 04:42:10 PM
A nice set of photos which set off the layout well. I can now envisage the layout much better. Yes, curve the corners if you can and if you're going to use a printed background, think about doing it before you start the scenery so that you can bend everything together. Make it dismountable so when you start on the lovely messy bits it doesn't spoil it. :no:
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: dannyboy on October 07, 2018, 05:44:48 PM
@Leon (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=6724)
I have curved corners on my backscene - here is one picture to, hopefully, show the effect. (Ignore the factory and fallen chimney, they are there as an experiment). The actual length of the curve visible in the picture is about 30 inches.

(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/69/4209-071018173818.jpeg)
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on October 07, 2018, 07:32:39 PM
A nice set of photos which set off the layout well. I can now envisage the layout much better. Yes, curve the corners if you can and if you're going to use a printed background, think about doing it before you start the scenery so that you can bend everything together. Make it dismountable so when you start on the lovely messy bits it doesn't spoil it. :no:

I will try to curve the corners when I get to that phase of layout construction, but I'm not sure about making it dismountable. I'm considering using the same extruded foam that I've used for the base board. I have three inches of foam throughout most of the layout which should provide sufficient area for a secure bonding of the board. The layout will never be moved and the back scene will be the last major piece of construction. Thereafter, any additional alterations will most likely be easily achieved from the front of the layout. That's the theory, at least. :)

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on October 07, 2018, 07:36:39 PM
:greatpicturessign: :thankyousign:

Looking good Leon.  :thumbsup:

Thanks, Chris! Placing buildings (even unfinished ones) and rolling stock is a motivating experience. I hate to start removing them, but I've got much to do. As Robert Frost said, I've got "miles to go before I sleep; and promises to keep!"

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on October 07, 2018, 07:43:24 PM
Impressive looking layout! Am following along with the developments ... so please keep the pics coming, ta.

Cheers  :beers:

I'm at the dismantling stage, again, but will post pictures again when I've completed the embankments for the inclines and the tunnel. At that point, I'll be ready to create some realistic undulations in the typography - after which there will more recording of my progress. I'm really anxious to start the softening of the sharp angles of foam board, but keep reminding myself this IS a long-term project. And, as all will understand, almost every day I see something I've overlooked.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on October 07, 2018, 07:44:48 PM
Wot they said  :thumbsup:

THEY, and you have been most kind! Thanks!

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on October 07, 2018, 07:46:38 PM
Nice set of photos showing good progress, Leon.

When you do get around to producing a backscene - sky and clouds can look great - see if you can make the rear section curve around the sides rather than a 90 degree join. That can make a big difference as you may have seen here. To my chagrin, I failed to do that and it still nags at me!

Dave G

Thanks, Dave. You and others have made the same suggestion. I've looked at some beautiful back scene work and will do my best to emulate  it - when the time comes.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on October 07, 2018, 07:48:03 PM
Oops, Bletchford.  :D

Bealman, Bletchford is an excellent example, though perhaps more than I'm capable of achieving. I WILL try!

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on October 07, 2018, 07:51:39 PM
@Leon ([url]http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=6724[/url])
I have curved corners on my backscene - here is one picture to, hopefully, show the effect. (Ignore the factory and fallen chimney, they are there as an experiment). The actual length of the curve visible in the picture is about 30 inches.

([url]http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/69/4209-071018173818.jpeg[/url])


Danny, now tell me how you did it? Looks great!

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: dannyboy on October 07, 2018, 08:47:55 PM
tell me how you did it? Looks great!


Thank you for that.  :)

The backboard is ľ inch plywood, 9 inch high. As the total length is in the region of 19 feet, I made it from 4 pieces, butt jointed with a small strip glued behind the joints as Ďbracesí. The bends were formed before joining the four pieces together. To make the ply bend, I wet it and held it, using my workbench and other implements, into the rough shape. The outer veneer of the ply did splinter in a couple of places on the bends, but as it was behind, that did not matter. The Ďscenicí bit was shop bought and I just had to, carefully, butt join it all together and I stuck it down with ordinary wallpaper paste. If I remember correctly, the back scene came in two pieces to make a length of 10 feet, so I bought two of them and trimmed to fit. As I started sticking the scenic paper from the middle, both corners are near enough identical, but because of the length, it is not so obvious!  :hmmm:. I thought I had glued the back board to the wall, but having just checked, it appears to be free standing, just held in place by the embankment and long tunnel.  Thinking about it, I think I made the back scene just the right length to start at the left hand end, go round the corner, along the back, then round the right hand corner and the end of the back scene was forced into the corner of the wall opposite the back wall, (the 'train room' is just 4 feet deep), so it was, in effect, wedged in place. Because of its length, I am glad I made the back scene from the plywood, although, on a smaller layout, I think it would be much easier to use stiff card!  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on October 10, 2018, 09:33:39 PM
My Dapol 2S-019-001 N gauge Kinsgstone Grange was returned to Hatton's yesterday. It is a really good looking model, but noisy and a very sluggish runner. Mechanically, there was little to like about this product. Perhaps that's why it's on sale by Dapol (and some suppliers) for 50% off. I think I'll use my credit to buy some coaches for my Southern "MALVERN" 4-4-0 schools class loco (another noisy Dapol, but it runs) and use my Graham Farish 371-981 61XX Prairie Tank Engine 6110 GWR Green until I can find something with the Shirtbutton crest.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: daveg on October 11, 2018, 07:25:31 AM
Sorry to learn you had a bad Grange. An extra nuisance you being the other side of the pond, too.

I rejected a Grange last year (I think) as it ran so badly. Taking it back to the local to me UK nominated repairers who also stock Dapol, tested another from their stock and it was just as bad.

I'm sure there must be some good ones out there but I decided not to get a replacement.

Dave G

Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on October 12, 2018, 07:26:55 PM
I need a little help, again, from my "friends"! I have the Peco NB-34 double Track Bridge side and Retaining Walls. There are no instructions or suggestions for building the road bed. This model will span the two tracks leading to my goods station in the lower right corner of the layout and the road over the bridge will extend across to a girder bridge spanning the three mainline rails. I'll be able to overlap the two bridges enough to fit my space, but short of cutting a block of foam for the base of the Peco bridge and notching one end to support the girder bridge, I have no inspiration! I'm modeling this to match the basic rail configuration at the NE end of Westbury Station. The photo I'm using doesn't show the connection between the two bridges and I suspect there was more room than I have to work with. In case you're wondering, the stone bridge and the siding were removed at some point (60s probably) and today there is just a long road incline to the girder bridge. Thanks in advance for any hints, suggestions, or photos that might bridge (no pun intended) my imagination.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Mito on October 12, 2018, 08:47:01 PM
For the road bed use styrene sheet or cardboard. To join the two bridges convincingly is a little more difficult. :hmmm: A block of foam is a good idea with brick or stone paper or styrene stuck to it. Are you going to use the bridge abutments? I would imaging that the two bridges didn't touch but if you've no room then you have no option but to join them together. Possibly you could use both pairs of abutments back to back between the bridges and the other side of the stone bridge make your own abutments or make all the abutments to match!
I hope you can understand all this waffle. ???
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on October 13, 2018, 03:57:20 AM
For the road bed use styrene sheet or cardboard. To join the two bridges convincingly is a little more difficult. :hmmm: A block of foam is a good idea with brick or stone paper or styrene stuck to it. Are you going to use the bridge abutments? I would imaging that the two bridges didn't touch but if you've no room then you have no option but to join them together. Possibly you could use both pairs of abutments back to back between the bridges and the other side of the stone bridge make your own abutments or make all the abutments to match!
I hope you can understand all this waffle. ???

Mito, the model bridge-ends incorporate abutments. The idea I communicated before was to rest the girder bridge on the adjoining abutment. There must have been 100 feet between the two bridges and separate abutments, of course. I just don't have room for that between my rails. After further study, the model I have seems to be a rail bridge and not a road bridge! Looks like I'll need to buy a new kit. I think I can use tunnel portals and model the road between the portals with foam. The portals I have don't include abutments, but I think I can find a pair on eBay. I was hoping someone would point me to a ready-made stone bridge over double rails!  :D

Leon

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: daveg on October 13, 2018, 07:36:46 AM
Not sure I follow exactly what you want but does this give you an idea for the portals?

https://www.track-shack.com/acatalog/Peco-Lineside-NB-34-N-Scale-Road-Bridge-Sides-and-Retaining-Walls-Kit-Stone-type-Double-track-Peco-Lineside-NB-34.html?gclid=CjwKCAjwjIHeBRAnEiwAhYT2h9C7LTHIJzzY2AGZDpEk68DDlGk8m8hSxxKPzWtEvaBKJAlS4CM06xoCCS0QAvD_BwE (https://www.track-shack.com/acatalog/Peco-Lineside-NB-34-N-Scale-Road-Bridge-Sides-and-Retaining-Walls-Kit-Stone-type-Double-track-Peco-Lineside-NB-34.html?gclid=CjwKCAjwjIHeBRAnEiwAhYT2h9C7LTHIJzzY2AGZDpEk68DDlGk8m8hSxxKPzWtEvaBKJAlS4CM06xoCCS0QAvD_BwE)

Foam or suitable card for the road bed would be my suggestions.

Hope that helps a little.

Dave G
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Newportnobby on October 13, 2018, 09:00:51 AM
Just as an aside to this I generally find the Peco tunnel mouths/bridges provide a larger bore than usually found so I lop up to 5mm off the base of them. Measure up first, though!
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on October 13, 2018, 02:45:12 PM
Just as an aside to this I generally find the Peco tunnel mouths/bridges provide a larger bore than usually found so I lop up to 5mm off the base of them. Measure up first, though!
Good point! I think the card model at https://scalescenes.com/product/r011-arched-bridge/ (https://scalescenes.com/product/r011-arched-bridge/) is maybe my best bet - without the wing walls. The only negative is that the actual bridge was stone. As usual, however, compromise is the name of the game!

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Newportnobby on October 13, 2018, 03:18:12 PM
Just as an aside to this I generally find the Peco tunnel mouths/bridges provide a larger bore than usually found so I lop up to 5mm off the base of them. Measure up first, though!
Good point! I think the card model at https://scalescenes.com/product/r011-arched-bridge/ (https://scalescenes.com/product/r011-arched-bridge/) is maybe my best bet - without the wing walls. The only negative is that the actual bridge was stone. As usual, however, compromise is the name of the game!

Leon

That is available in 7 types, Leon. Maybe one of the Ashlars might suit e.g. the TX46
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on October 13, 2018, 05:11:11 PM
Just as an aside to this I generally find the Peco tunnel mouths/bridges provide a larger bore than usually found so I lop up to 5mm off the base of them. Measure up first, though!
Good point! I think the card model at https://scalescenes.com/product/r011-arched-bridge/ (https://scalescenes.com/product/r011-arched-bridge/) is maybe my best bet - without the wing walls. The only negative is that the actual bridge was stone. As usual, however, compromise is the name of the game!

Leon

That is available in 7 types, Leon. Maybe one of the Ashlars might suit e.g. the TX46

Mick, I think you're right. Compromises come in many shapes and sizes!  :) I've still to build my first card model, but I can't put it off much longer. Believe it or not, I'm still working to smooth out my inclines. I've used Woodland Scenics inclines and have just finished covering them with plaster cloth, but I'm still not happy with a few uneven sections. Maybe I'm being too hypersensitive, but I don't want to get it all laid "permanently" only to find that the trains won't run without derailing or wagons/coaches uncoupling. I've had a lot of trouble with the latter while testing the track but couldn't determine if the problem was unevenness or the mixture of old rolling stock I was using. Some of the couplers seem suspect. I'll know when the new wagons are running, and I don't want any surprises.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Newportnobby on October 13, 2018, 08:45:49 PM
To an extent railway embankments/cuttings were quite uniform in appearance but if your 'uneven sections' are purely on the scenics then just infill 'dents' with foliage to create bushes. Shrubbery can hide an awful lot ;)
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on October 13, 2018, 10:04:23 PM
To an extent railway embankments/cuttings were quite uniform in appearance but if your 'uneven sections' are purely on the scenics then just infill 'dents' with foliage to create bushes. Shrubbery can hide an awful lot ;)

My embankments and cuttings will not likely be uniform, but as you suggested a lot can be concealed or blended. My concern is with keeping the rails level as they ascend and descend the inclines. Although I used Woodland Scenics inclines, I made a few slight alterations that left me with some dips and bumps. I think these will be ok. The bigger issue is with the mainline incline at the front of the layout. I cut extruded foam for this section and glued together four 1/2" boards after cutting the angles for the incline. I should have done my gluing first and then cut the angle, but I was afraid I wouldn't get an even cut. As it turned out, I have four angled pieces of foam that did not match perfectly after gluing. The result is an incline with a few "waves". When I ran the locomotives, however, I had no derailments or coupling issues on this section of track. I'm keeping my fingers crossed.

I've begun the tunnel section. This is another case of proceeding cautiously. I've put inclines in the tunnel requiring different clearances, and my mind isn't very pliable when manipulating numbers; the result is pieces of foam board that don't match - as intended. But, I'm encouraged by the steady progress. To reprise, I needed the space occupied by the rails at the back (top) of the layout for landscape; thus, the tunnel.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on October 14, 2018, 11:32:47 PM
Why didn't someone tell me this model railroading is hard work! :) I'm really rather pleased, because I needed a little more physical exercise. You younguns will be laughing, but since I stopped working the lawn and garden a few years ago, I've done nothing more than the occasional walk. Stretching and bending and crawling around and under the baseboard is giving me a workout! Being on my feet rather than on my butt is good, too!

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Newportnobby on October 15, 2018, 10:20:08 AM
WD40 will not help, Leon, and don't you dare let any near your layout :no:
I find if I've had to work under the boards then I just know I'll ache for the next couple of days
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Drakken on October 15, 2018, 12:46:06 PM
Had a read through the last few pages of your layout thread and it's an impressive size. I like the way your write too, You come across as thoughtful & methodical not just putting it together & seeing what happens.

It's a lovely size layout with so much potential, As I was told take your time & enjoy the build & fitness it seems too :beers:

Gutted you had to return the Grange back to Hatton's maybe at a later date a rerelease will be done with better running quality for you to enjoy instead

Kind Regards
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on October 15, 2018, 04:03:47 PM
Had a read through the last few pages of your layout thread and it's an impressive size. I like the way your write too, You come across as thoughtful & methodical not just putting it together & seeing what happens.

It's a lovely size layout with so much potential, As I was told take your time & enjoy the build & fitness it seems too :beers:

Gutted you had to return the Grange back to Hatton's maybe at a later date a rerelease will be done with better running quality for you to enjoy instead

Kind Regards

Thanks for the compliment! There is plenty of scope for development of the layout, but I'm unsure to what extent it will be fully realized. I am enjoying the experience, however. When I started, I thought 4' x 8' would be an ample size but this being my first serious effort I couldn't envision all the limitations of scale. Discovering what is possible and what is not must be one of the primary motivations for modellers.

I'll attend the doctor, today, for my annual physical, so not much time for work on the layout. I'm about finished with the tunnel foundation - over which I'll build some soft undulations for sheep and cattle grazing, but also a road and the receding Bristol line behind a cutting in the upper left corner. Before getting into the landscaping I'll need to finish off the wiring. There are five more holes to drill for feeder wires and then I can glue down my track. (I think I was anticipating the latter action at least a month ago!) So much to do!

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Mito on October 15, 2018, 04:51:24 PM
Glad you're getting more exercise. It's so important at our age. I don't have to crawl under my layout, it's resting on cupboards. My exercise at the moment is building a block shed to provide extra storage for junk I've accumulated over the years, and taking a German Shepherd dog for his walks twice a day. This is how I feel at the end of the day :sleep:!
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on October 23, 2018, 09:33:07 PM
Mito, health permitting I've committed to keeping our son's dogs while he and his wife are on holiday in May. It was with a caveat, however. I will not be walking the dogs! He has a Dalmatian and a mixed bred at least as large as the Dalmatian. I walked the mixed breed dog over the years, and it was good exercise. Now, it would be a punishment! Fortunately, there is a large fenced wildflower meadow where the dogs can "self-exercise" and a dog walker on call.

My wife and I will make day trips from North Somerset over a period of two weeks, so I'll be happy to receive and consider suggestions for places to visit. Our interests are fairly broad, but walking is no longer an option. I have Didcot and East Somerset Railway on the list already! :) And, I'll probably return to Trowbridge and Westbury.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Innovationgame on October 24, 2018, 06:24:26 AM
Walking may be out, Leon, but it sounds as though you can still leap over the pond!  :D
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on October 24, 2018, 03:58:10 PM
Walking may be out, Leon, but it sounds as though you can still leap over the pond!  :D

Laurence, the pond isn't an obstacle, but the transportation across has become a deterrent to regular "pond leaping". Transatlantic travel has become torturous for me, but something I'm willing to endure once a year.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: port perran on October 24, 2018, 04:07:52 PM
Iíd recommend a visit to the West Somerset Railway if you can Leon.
Itís much bigger than the East Somerset but.....the East Somerset has the bonus of the Aladdinís cave which is East Somerset Models!
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on October 24, 2018, 09:50:05 PM
Iíd recommend a visit to the West Somerset Railway if you can Leon.
Itís much bigger than the East Somerset but.....the East Somerset has the bonus of the Aladdinís cave which is East Somerset Models!

Martin, I do want to visit the West Somerset Railway, but it's a little bit of a stretch for a day trip, perhaps. It was the first heritage railway that I learned about, and it was on my list a few years ago (another time we were dog sitting). We'll maybe be able to visit it on a future trip when we can combine it with an overnight stay. Thanks for the suggestion!

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on October 24, 2018, 11:31:25 PM
I've been reading forum threads, trying to catch up, and have observed some conversations about the cost of models relative to inflation over the years. It does seem to me that prices are a bit ridiculous, in many cases. In my opinion, there are two inter-related reasons. Model railroading, always attractive, seems to be enjoying a peak of interest. Supply and demand! But, the second reason is perhaps the most relevant. With the development of the Internet, the secondary market has become enormous and has encouraged manufacturers to raise prices more than they might have otherwise. Many used wagons (10-30 years old) are selling for more than a new Peco model! I may have posted a similar comment here, already, and if I have I apologize for repeating myself. I've been aggressively seeking a heavy goods locomotive for a few months and since there isn't much available for my modeling period from new stock I've followed a lot of eBay listings. Auctions there almost always result in a buyers frenzy that pushes the price up beyond the ridiculous. Dealers, both on eBay and on their own websites, list locomotives with all manner of defects at absurd prices. So, there may be a third reason for model price inflation - more modelers keen to repair and/or rebuild a defective locomotive. One final point; there may be as many collectors buying online as there are modellers. I've noticed that a collectors' club model will always sell for much more than a comparable model which brings us full circle, I guess! Supply and demand!

One related question. Why the interest in N Gauge details that many of us cannot even see? That added detail is also pushing production costs, of course, and some of it is barely observable on running trains. Maybe there should be two production lines with attendant pricing; one for the "purist" modeller and one for people like me. :)

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: chrispearce on October 25, 2018, 06:46:21 PM
Good thought Leon. Hornby does its Railroad range of less detailed stock but I guess making stock in 2 formats would be more expensive for the manufacturers. Really it's down to some lumps and grooves in the moulds so I don't think it would be worth it. However, to support your argument the late Rev. Peter Denny who gave the world his 4mm scale Buckingham Branch and seems to have scratch-built EVERYTHING ie. he turned his own wheels and hand-wound the armatures for his motors, said that (even in 4mm scale) if it can't be seen from a normal viewing distance then don't bother modelling it. Seems reasonable to me!  :D

Makes me think of my own layout. I can't see it from ANY distance which maybe explains why I haven't made it. :-[

It's why I like this forum. I can enjoy other peoples' projects  ;)
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: port perran on October 25, 2018, 06:57:53 PM
Itís something which has been discussed many times on this forum.
I agree that whilst the detail available on locomotives is amazing, some of us are too old to see it. Including me.
However, many people like to photograph their locos on their layouts and this is where the detail can really be appreciated. Plus, many younger people can see it in real life.
I guess fine detail increases prices and thatís where Colin at Union Mills comes into his own. Whilst Dapol and GF produce superbly detailed locomotives, the reliability (particularly where steam locomotives is concerned) is somewhat suspect.
Union Mills manage to combine simple ruggedness with superb reliability but the finished product looks just like the real thing but without the fine detail.
For me, prices have gone over the barrier. I can afford it but wonít pay over 100.00 for locomotives or over 25.00 for carriages or over 15.00 for wagons.
Luckily, I already have a large stock of all three so Iím not really worried.
Trouble is, if too many of us vote with our feet and stop buying then the manufacturers will stoo producing.
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: kelstonlad on October 25, 2018, 08:44:22 PM
Iíd recommend a visit to the West Somerset Railway if you can Leon.
Itís much bigger than the East Somerset but.....the East Somerset has the bonus of the Aladdinís cave which is East Somerset Models!

I second this! There's a very large 00 gauge layout "Bath Green Park" that is sometimes on display at one of the stations (Bishops Lydeard) on the West Somerset - if you do go, it's worth tyring to fit this in at the same time.

And, shameless plug for my home city - if you want a break from trains, and like architecture, make sure you visit Wells. It has both a very impressive cathedral and a medieval parish church.
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on October 26, 2018, 01:42:55 AM
Iíd recommend a visit to the West Somerset Railway if you can Leon.
Itís much bigger than the East Somerset but.....the East Somerset has the bonus of the Aladdinís cave which is East Somerset Models!

I second this! There's a very large 00 gauge layout "Bath Green Park" that is sometimes on display at one of the stations (Bishops Lydeard) on the West Somerset - if you do go, it's worth trying to fit this in at the same time.

And, shameless plug for my home city - if you want a break from trains, and like architecture, make sure you visit Wells. It has both a very impressive cathedral and a medieval parish church.

Kelstonlad, your plug is not shameless! I've visited Wells a number of times and it has become one of my favorite places. The Bishop's Palace is a place to while away a lazy afternoon. I'm usually there in May or June, but I'm sure it must be nice at any time. There are no doubt other attractions in Wells that still await us. The convenient proximity to Bath ensures there will be at least one annual visit.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on October 26, 2018, 02:13:21 AM
Itís something which has been discussed many times on this forum.

Trouble is, if too many of us vote with our feet and stop buying then the manufacturers will stop producing.

Sorry for beating a broken drum! :) I'm with Martin as to the prices I'm willing to pay. I have paid over a hundred for a locomotive, but after the last purchase, I'll have to see the next one run before I buy (an exception for Union Mills). Hatton's are great to deal with, but the returned Grange cost me over 20 dollars to return. I don't think I've paid over 25 pounds for a carriage, but I've only bought used, but the price was still approaching 25 pounds. I paid almost 25 pounds for a 20 Ton Toad Brake Van 'GWR, Bewdley' - used. I guess everyone has had to pay a premium for a necessary component when the manufacturer is no longer making them.

I have faith, generally, in the only economic principle I trust - supply and demand. When demand is high, the company always raised their prices. When the demand isn't so great, a company always drops their prices rather than close their doors! Viable businesses fine tune their reaction to economic realities. As I said in my last post, the model market may be at an all-time high. The problem is that hobbyists don't want to wait and just keep stoking the furnace. That's what I did with the Toad Brake! :)

I've gotten the message about Union Mills and today wrote to Colin for a quotation.

I've been testing track again, today, and have run into some short-circuiting problems. I've one more thing to check and if it doesn't work I'll be making an appeal for help! All of a sudden, my test locomotive could not be controlled and would only run in fast mode - forwards and reverse. After that, it wouldn't run over the track I've most recently wired. It did run on stretches of track over which I've run it before - using a backup controller. I fear I've maybe damaged the original controller, but haven't confirmed it, yet. That's something for tomorrow - before the World Series game.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Innovationgame on October 26, 2018, 06:37:14 AM
I agree prices are a problem.  I have been able to acquire some coaches at reasonable prices, but others are more expensive.  I bought the majority of my stock and locos in October 2106 when there was a warnng about prices because of the slump in the pound. :thumbsdown:

I hope you get your wiring and/or controllers sorted out. :)
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on October 26, 2018, 08:38:17 PM
I hope you get your wiring and/or controllers sorted out. :)

Laurence, I think you are probably the person to ask for electrical help, but I welcome help from anyone!

I've just finished checking all of my electrical feeds. I have them all pointed in the same direction but am still unable to run my test loco. On the outer loop, it runs uncontrollably at top speed. On the inner loop, it picks up current but moves just an inch or so before the controller shuts down. I'm still trying by process of elimination to narrow the problem, but without success, so far.

Both of my transformers are Kato. In an attempt to establish if there might be damage to the controllers (I've tried switching them, already), I've attached an MRC Railpower 1370 and tested the feeders for both loops without success. Electricity was transferred to the rails, but the loco gave a grinding sound, moved an inch or so and stopped. Now I have to wonder if the loco has been damaged. I've no electrical meter and wouldn't know what to do with it if I did!

After writing the last paragraph, I disconnected the last power feed added and everything seems to be back to normal. I'm scratching my head at the symptoms created by one presumably bad UniJoiner. Trial by error is the only strategy I can employ, so I usually check the last change I made first. I think I did that, but it's possible there were polarity issues, also, resulting from my fiddling with the feeder rails/UniJoiners (I tried switching a few).

Basically, I have two loops with a Kato transformer powering each. Trains on the outer loop (down line) will be powered by Controller #1. The inner loop (up line) and all of the track inside the loop, except the sidings, will be operated by Controller #2.  The station sidings will be powered by the MRC power pack, Controller #3. For the trains running on the outer loop to enter the station, the polarity of the inner loop has to be changed. That will be accomplished with a Power Direction Control Switch which plugs into Controller 2 (controlling the inner loops and station lines). It's all "plug and play" and fairly intuitive. All of this will be of little interest to all except Kato users, but perhaps someone can benefit from my woes!

In practical terms, when I have it all worked out, I'll be able to continuously run trains on the loops while working the sidings. When I want to bring a train into the station I need only a change of points for the up line, but the train on the down line cannot enter the station until the polarity of the inner rails is changed and then only when locomotives on those sections of track are immobile and isolated by point switches or a power switch. Most likely I'll add a power switch to the up line in the station for bringing in a down line train. The only problem with this system is that the down line train must return to the main line before polarity is changed allowing the up line train to proceed. Likewise, shunters cannot leave the sidings until trains on the up line are immobile. I'm still unsure how I'll work the autocoach between Witsbury and Biss River. I'll save that for another day!

This is another of those posts that will have people scratching their heads, but it's the best solution I've found for the layout I've designed and I've explained it as best I can. I don't have an alternative since trains traveling in opposite directions must share a single track.

Any observations that might enable me to improve on the system I've tried to describe will be appreciated. I don't think I can make any appreciable design changes at this stage, however.

Leon

Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Mito on October 26, 2018, 08:46:16 PM
I bought the majority of my stock and locos in October 2106 when there was a warnng about prices because of the slump in the pound. :thumbsdown:
I'm not too fussed about 80 years hence, but can you ask the timelords about prices next week? :D
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Innovationgame on October 27, 2018, 06:28:34 AM
I bought the majority of my stock and locos in October 2106 when there was a warnng about prices because of the slump in the pound. :thumbsdown:
I'm not too fussed about 80 years hence, but can you ask the timelords about prices next week? :D
Sorry.  I did of course mean 2016!  :-[

Leon:

1. Are you using DC or DCC? 
2. Your description of a controller shutting down sounds like short circuit protection kicking in.
3. If you get hold of a simple multimeter, can you get someone to demonstrate how to use it.  They are quite simple to operate once you know how.
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on October 27, 2018, 04:40:29 PM
Are you using DC or DCC? 

Laurence, I'm DC. I could probably manage a multimeter, but for a guy who has trouble using a cellphone I'm not anxious to encounter new devices if they're not absolutely necessary. My layout has a lot of rail and points, but is really pretty simple. Components can fail, however, so I may reach the point where I'll have to acquire and learn to use another device. I'll confront that eventuality when it happens. :) For now, my locomotive is chugging along (albeit with some difficulty on the sharper curves and points) and I'm moving on to modelling.

Thanks for your valuable comments, which are always appreciated and contemplated.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Mito on October 27, 2018, 06:17:13 PM
+1 to Inovation's suggestion. They are cheap to buy and exceedingly useful for those infuriating problems that occur on our models. What could take hours to solve by moving wires around can be solved in minutes with a multimeter.
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: weave on October 27, 2018, 06:38:12 PM
Hi Leon,

I'm probably misreading, misunderstanding or just being a forgetful fool but I think you have mentioned DCC conversion locos on other threads so for peace of mind can you please confirm that you are not running DCC converted locos on your DC layout?

It can be done, I believe, but there are ways of doing it.

Apologies if I have got the wrong end of the stick.

Just trying to help.

Cheers weave  :beers:

GO RED SOX!!!
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on October 27, 2018, 08:17:25 PM
+1 to Inovation's suggestion. They are cheap to buy and exceedingly useful for those infuriating problems that occur on our models. What could take hours to solve by moving wires around can be solved in minutes with a multimeter.

Mito, I'm sure you're right, and maybe my concern about learning to use the multimeter is clouding reason. Yesterday I unplugged a UniJoiner power supply to my inner rails and my locomotive ran fine. Today, it won't run on those rails, though it runs perfectly on the outer loop. I've pretty well established that one of my Kato controllers is damaged, so I've unplugged that controller. The working controller works fine on the outer but not the inner loop, so obviously there must be a short circuit on the inner loop causing the controller to shut down. Aside from checking that my power feeds are properly installed, I don't know what else to do and can't understand how a multimeter would help. I'm going to take the advice of you and Laurence and buy a multimeter, but what I fear is that the tutorials will be too general and without specific application to model railway electrification. I don't need or want to become an electrician at my age! :) To answer Laurence's question, I don't know anyone I can call on for help. I may have to join a nearby model railway club for support. All of a sudden, what I thought would be a relatively simple hobby (though I was always fearful of the electrical part) has maybe become more than I'm capable of handling. Incidentally, the two loops are separated by built-in isolators and the outer loop is properly powered and working fine. I've checked and double checked the polarity of the power feeds on the inner loop rails (of which there are a total of seven - three rail feeds and five UniJoiner rail feeds) and they all appear to be installed correctly. Please confirm my understanding? - the white wire is positive and should be attached to the right rail in the direction of travel. Before sending this message I checked again (for the umpteenth time) and the feeders are connected correctly according to my understanding. I also cleaned the track and attempted once more to run a locomotive on the inner loop - successfully! Was cleaning the solution? Or, do I have a gremlin? I may have discovered a faulty point, also. Or, is that the gremlin, again?

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Mito on October 27, 2018, 08:38:10 PM
Gremlins are an integral part of the fun of model railways.
There are so many different facets of the hobby that it is mind stretching. Excellent for exercising the grey matter between the ears. Get yourself a meter and we'll help you understand how to use it. Look up Ohm's Law. That is the basic building block for electricity. Understanding  that will help you understand the meter and how it functions.
Look here. Lawrence, (Inovationgame) has a topic about multimeters.
http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=41012.0 (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=41012.0)
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: port perran on October 27, 2018, 08:43:55 PM
Hi Leon
My electrical knowledge is so small that if written down it would easily fit on the back of the proverbial postage stamp.
But......I do like to keep things incredibly simple.
I suggest.
Take your controller that you know works well.
Attach it to the outer loop and set all points in the direction of the loop. If the loco runs (in both directions) then fine.
Change each point (one at a time) and check the loco again. This eliminates each point as a problem one at a time.
Now attach the same controller to the inner loop. Go through the same testing scenario.
If all is ok then the 2 loops are fine and that single controller is fine.
Repeat the procedure with the second controller to check that.
Now......if changing a point causes a problem then there is your answer (quite possibly).
I suggest trying that to start with and see what happens?
As I say, I know nothing at all about electricity. In fact there are two things which I donít trust and those are electricity and wind! And we canít see either of the blighters!
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on October 27, 2018, 08:46:07 PM
Hi Leon,

I'm probably misreading, misunderstanding or just being a forgetful fool but I think you have mentioned DCC conversion locos on other threads so for peace of mind can you please confirm that you are not running DCC converted locos on your DC layout?

It can be done, I believe, but there are ways of doing it.

Apologies if I have got the wrong end of the stick.

Just trying to help.

Cheers weave  :beers:

GO RED SOX!!!

To the best of my understanding, my locomotives are DCC ready (most of them) but not converted to DCC. All help is appreciated more than you can know!

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: dannyboy on October 27, 2018, 09:14:07 PM
After reading your earlier comment @Leon (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=6724), I had a thought, (it didn't hurt  :)) - does the inner loop still work? If it does, by cleaning the track, you may have moved something, (a stray piece of wire strand?), that was causing a short. If you have the fault again, maybe the track cleaning only disturbed the 'something' and it has reverted back to a position where it can cause a short. If that is the case then, a bit tedious I know, maybe you could have a look at the entire inner loop, with a magnifying glass (?) and see if you can spot a foreign body causing the short.  Incidentally, I knew nothing about multi meters until I joined the forum, now I know how to check for DC volts on the layout.  ;)

Incidentally, Port Perrran's plan is a good way to eliminate some possible problems.  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on October 28, 2018, 01:13:24 AM
Hi Leon
My electrical knowledge is so small that if written down it would easily fit on the back of the proverbial postage stamp.
But......I do like to keep things incredibly simple.
I suggest.
Take your controller that you know works well.
Attach it to the outer loop and set all points in the direction of the loop. If the loco runs (in both directions) then fine.
Change each point (one at a time) and check the loco again. This eliminates each point as a problem one at a time.
Now attach the same controller to the inner loop. Go through the same testing scenario.
If all is ok then the 2 loops are fine and that single controller is fine.
Repeat the procedure with the second controller to check that.
Now......if changing a point causes a problem then there is your answer (quite possibly).
I suggest trying that to start with and see what happens?
As I say, I know nothing at all about electricity. In fact there are two things which I donít trust and those are electricity and wind! And we canít see either of the blighters!

Martin, thanks for this advice. The outer loop has only one point, so that was easy. And, my loco has run fine after I eliminated a faulty controller. I'm in the process of checking out the inner loop and will post again tomorrow.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on October 28, 2018, 07:48:14 PM
Martin, the controller I was using for the outer loop is definitely faulty, so I've switched controllers. The new controller (and the controller for the inner loop) confirmed there is no problem with the electrics on the outer loop.

The inner loop is working well after testing the points. As I mentioned before, my loco ran fine on the inner rails after I cleaned the track, but I tested each point and nothing is amiss. I've not yet added feeders to the north and south sidings. I'll do that when I get a replacement controller for the one that is faulty, and that will have to wait until I've fulfilled some other needs. Likewise, one faulty point has been exchanged with one of the siding points which will be replaced later.

I think I'm good for moving on with the gluing of track and building of tunnel infrastructure. I was testing each section of track after gluing and stopped when I started having electrical problems. I had glued the first section of tunnel infrastructure to the baseboard and discovered it wasn't such a good idea. I had left an opening to remove derailed locos and/or wagons but found the access wasn't adequate for rail/point work. I'll leave other sections of the tunnel unglued until all the landscaping is done at the back (top) of the layout and trains are running smoothly.

Thanks, again, for your suggestions. Keep them coming!

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on October 29, 2018, 06:42:56 PM
Observation: If ballasting track is as bad as gluing track, I think it's time for me to quit this hobby! :) I'll not be ready to ballast for a while, but I'm wondering if it would not be wise to ballast all track before adding ANY scenic detail. My impression is that may be standard practice.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Innovationgame on October 29, 2018, 06:48:29 PM
It is certainly easier to complete ballasting before starting on scenic work.  Of course, at a future date,  you may need to lift some track and re-ballast it, but try to get the worst over before you start on the scenery.
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: port perran on October 29, 2018, 07:07:01 PM
I donít mind ballasting but normally do it in little chunks as it is a bit tedious.
Yes, normally do it before adding too much scenery but be careful where lineside structures are to be placed (eg platforms) as you donít want things sitting on top of ballast which is too wide.
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Mito on October 29, 2018, 08:07:05 PM
I ballast when I'm in the mood otherwise I make a bad job of it. I usually do the scenery first right down to the track. Mother nature was there before trains.
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: dannyboy on October 29, 2018, 08:44:09 PM
I am inclined to agree with Mito and port perran. Certainly, as far as possible, get lineside items installed first.
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: themadhippy on October 29, 2018, 09:14:20 PM
look on the bright side,youve used kato track so a lot of the work has already been done.
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: daveg on October 29, 2018, 09:34:25 PM
I ballast when I'm in the mood otherwise I make a bad job of it. I usually do the scenery first right down to the track. Mother nature was there before trains.

I second that emotion!

There's a good 50% of my layout that has yet to be ballasted but 90% of the scenics are done.  :doh:

Dave G
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: chrispearce on October 29, 2018, 09:36:43 PM
Judging by the more experienced answers to your question Leon, I may seem the 'odd-one-out' here. I was in the habit of making my scenery out of polystyrene which I then covered in a plaster and glue mix for durability. As this could result in little white blobs dropping onto the track (I was loathe to cover my track in tape) I tended to leave my ballasting until last. That way I could do a neater job once I cleaned up. It seemed a shame to toil over trying to build nice ballast to have the consequences of subsequent scenery-building spoil it. Anyway, I reasoned that I was following prototype practice although I had to ignore the yawning hole in my thinking because the track had appeared BEFORE the scenery. I would, of course, make a rubbish Vulcan due to my deeply flawed logic. Anyway, just a thought. I will put my stick-on pointed ears back in the toy box.
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on October 30, 2018, 04:03:50 PM
look on the bright side,youve used kato track so a lot of the work has already been done.

I suppose you're right, but I don't really like the Kato track base. Adding ballast to improve the aesthetics of Kato may be more difficult than ballasting other types of track.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on October 30, 2018, 04:08:19 PM
I ballast when I'm in the mood otherwise I make a bad job of it. I usually do the scenery first right down to the track. Mother nature was there before trains.

I second that emotion!

There's a good 50% of my layout that has yet to be ballasted but 90% of the scenics are done.  :doh:

Dave G

Dave, I expect I'll leave ballasting for all of my station area, except the platforms, until near the end of the build. For my layout, that's at least 50%.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Newportnobby on October 30, 2018, 04:14:29 PM
Ballast track in stations when the platforms are in as (a) you can run the ballast up to the platform edges and (b) it stops the platforms looking as if they are 'floating' on top of the baseboard. Same applies to any loco sheds where 'cinders' are scattered around.
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on October 30, 2018, 04:21:25 PM
It seemed a shame to toil over trying to build nice ballast to have the consequences of subsequent scenery-building spoil it.

That was my point when I equated gluing and ballasting. I'm a pretty messy worker, it seems. I had glue all over the place! And, I've done enough with plaster and glue, already, to expect an even bigger mess when I begin ballasting and large-scale scenery-building. There's no way around it, but I don't think I'll be adding much detail until most of the gluing and plastering is finished.

For Kato users: does the height of the Kato track need to be mitigated by raising the level of the ground beyond the edge of the molded ballast?

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: daveg on October 30, 2018, 04:25:22 PM
I've found that adding a tiny amount of matching scatter to a very thin line of PVA at the base of buildings helps them to look a bit more 'sited', if there is such a word.

Far from a perfect example but it gives you the idea:

(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/64/main_1273.JPG)

Dave G
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: daveg on October 30, 2018, 04:30:41 PM
If you haven't got one or actually come across such a thing, a ballast spreader may help.

There are various offerings so try Googling 'N Gauge  Ballast Spreader' to see what you get.

Amazon list several.

HTH

Dave G
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Mito on October 30, 2018, 04:48:47 PM
Normally the levels of railway buildings are taken from the top of the rail.
http://www.elginmodelrailwayclub.co.uk/2010/articles/advice/standard-railway-modelling-dimmensions.html (http://www.elginmodelrailwayclub.co.uk/2010/articles/advice/standard-railway-modelling-dimmensions.html)
This perhaps explains better.
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: dannyboy on October 30, 2018, 07:04:42 PM
For Kato users: does the height of the Kato track need to be mitigated by raising the level of the ground beyond the edge of the molded ballast?



@Leon (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=6724)  A lot depends on how you see the track and surrounding area. My layout is totally Kato Unitrack and I have found that it looks better in the turntable and sidings area if the 'land' adjacent to the the track is raised slightly, I have used 4mm thick plywood. In the 'open countryside', I do not think it will matter so much. Basically, do what you think looks best to you - it is, after all, your layout. As regards ballasting, where I have two or more tracks close together,  I have experimented with filling the gap with the Kato ballast and it looks okay to me. I will be using the Kato ballast, with maybe a slightly darker wash, for other areas- but that is for the future.
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on October 30, 2018, 08:25:05 PM
Normally the levels of railway buildings are taken from the top of the rail.
[url]http://www.elginmodelrailwayclub.co.uk/2010/articles/advice/standard-railway-modelling-dimmensions.html[/url] ([url]http://www.elginmodelrailwayclub.co.uk/2010/articles/advice/standard-railway-modelling-dimmensions.html[/url])
This perhaps explains better.


Mito, many thanks! This is an excellent aid. I've printed it and added the site to my bookmarks.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on October 30, 2018, 08:31:06 PM
If you haven't got one or actually come across such a thing, a ballast spreader may help.

Dave, thanks! You saved me asking. I have one in my eBay basket but needed to be convinced it would be worth the money. It's amazing with plastic such a cheap commodity that model railway accessories are so expensive. If they've sold one, Bachman must have sold thousands, and you'd think they could drop the price. Then, again, at the price they're asking maybe one IS all they've sold. :)

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on October 30, 2018, 08:33:00 PM
I've found that adding a tiny amount of matching scatter to a very thin line of PVA at the base of buildings helps them to look a bit more 'sited', if there is such a word.
Far from a perfect example but it gives you the idea:
([url]http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/64/main_1273.JPG[/url])


I like it! Both the building and the idea.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: daveg on October 30, 2018, 10:12:08 PM
If you haven't got one or actually come across such a thing, a ballast spreader may help.

Dave, thanks! You saved me asking. I have one in my eBay basket but needed to be convinced it would be worth the money. It's amazing with plastic such a cheap commodity that model railway accessories are so expensive. If they've sold one, Bachman must have sold thousands, and you'd think they could drop the price. Then, again, at the price they're asking maybe one IS all they've sold. :)

Leon

Not sure if these folk ship to the USA but have look here:

https://www.peediemodels.com/proddetail.php?prod=PMMT44003 (https://www.peediemodels.com/proddetail.php?prod=PMMT44003)

'Cheap as chips' as we say here - and it works. I have one.

Dave G
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on October 31, 2018, 06:15:36 PM
If you haven't got one or actually come across such a thing, a ballast spreader may help.
Not sure if these folk ship to the USA but have look here:
https://www.peediemodels.com/proddetail.php?prod=PMMT44003 (https://www.peediemodels.com/proddetail.php?prod=PMMT44003)
'Cheap as chips' as we say here - and it works. I have one.

Dave G
[/quote]

Dave, thanks for the link! I watched the video and I think I'll have one of these. If they don't ship to U.S. I can always have it shipped to my son. I do notice they show an ex-VAT price, so they probably will ship and the VAT savings will probably cover the postage.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on October 31, 2018, 06:33:26 PM
I've previously posted about returning my Dapol Grange Class Locomotive, due to it's erratic and noisy running. In fairness to Dapol, I think I should comment on my satisfaction with their ND004 14xx: GWR Shirtbutton: 1420. It's a lovely model and runs perfectly! I've been using it and my Graham Farish Caledonian Railways 4-4-0 for testing my tracks. The Dapol was purchased new and the GF used. I'm pleased with both, but the Dapol is by far the quieter of the two. It seems that all the model locomotive manufacturers need to pay attention to quality control, and if possible buyers ought to insist on a test drive before buying.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on October 31, 2018, 06:55:36 PM
I'm really excited to have been introduced to Peddie Models (https://www.peediemodels.com (https://www.peediemodels.com)) by Dave G. Thanks, again Dave! There are probably other similar sources of N gauge models I've not discovered, so I'll be most grateful for additional links.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on October 31, 2018, 09:28:16 PM
As regards ballasting, where I have two or more tracks close together,  I have experimented with filling the gap with the Kato ballast and it looks okay to me. I will be using the Kato ballast, with maybe a slightly darker wash, for other areas- but that is for the future.

David, I'm probably going to use Fine Gray Blend Ballast from Woodland Scenics, though I've not ruled out Kato ballast. I'm really undecided about the color, but feel the Kato moulded ballast is too light. Incidentally, what do you think about Woodland Scenics Track Painter, Rusty Rail WOOTT4581?

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: dannyboy on November 01, 2018, 08:44:47 AM
Kato ballast does seem to be a bit light, hence the fact that, when I get 'roundtuit', I will be trying a bit of dark wash on some ballasting. I have not tried the WS Track Painter, but I am sure someone on the forum will have used it and can comment. Keep at it @Leon (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=6724).  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Hailstone on November 01, 2018, 01:48:57 PM
I have used a product available in America from Joe's model trains, here is a link to Osbornes models in England so you can see what it looks like:

https://www.osbornsmodels.com/joes-rusty-rails-painter-816-c.asp (https://www.osbornsmodels.com/joes-rusty-rails-painter-816-c.asp)

I found that with only a little practice, the job of rail painting took less than an hour for almost my whole layout, the only bits needing to be done by hand being near point blades. hope this helps

Regards,

Alex
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on November 01, 2018, 03:06:52 PM
I have used a product available in America from Joe's model trains, here is a link to Osbornes models in England so you can see what it looks like:
https://www.osbornsmodels.com/joes-rusty-rails-painter-816-c.asp (https://www.osbornsmodels.com/joes-rusty-rails-painter-816-c.asp)
I found that with only a little practice, the job of rail painting took less than an hour for almost my whole layout, the only bits needing to be done by hand being near point blades. hope this helps
Regards,
Alex

Thanks, Alex! Did you use rust brown or dark brown? Woodland Scenics have three colors and I cut and pasted the Rust. I'm not sure that's the color I'd want to use throughout.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: dannyboy on November 01, 2018, 06:02:58 PM
I have just had a look at http://www.joesmodeltrains.com/ (http://www.joesmodeltrains.com/) and the site is currently being revamped. However, it does say that they are

"making a new tool based on the same Joe's Model Trains Rusty Rails Painter concept and applicator. However, the NEW tool will be more user friendly. Be much easier to clean, will not need a separate bottle to refill the tool- use same tool on the different bottle colors".
 
Could be interesting to see what it is like.
@Hailstone (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=1193) @Leon (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=6724)
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Hailstone on November 01, 2018, 06:41:53 PM
I have used a product available in America from Joe's model trains, here is a link to Osbornes models in England so you can see what it looks like:
https://www.osbornsmodels.com/joes-rusty-rails-painter-816-c.asp (https://www.osbornsmodels.com/joes-rusty-rails-painter-816-c.asp)
I found that with only a little practice, the job of rail painting took less than an hour for almost my whole layout, the only bits needing to be done by hand being near point blades. hope this helps
Regards,
Alex

Thanks, Alex! Did you use rust brown or dark brown? Woodland Scenics have three colors and I cut and pasted the Rust. I'm not sure that's the color I'd want to use throughout.

Leon

I used brown rust, which darkens after drying for a while

Regards,

Alex
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on November 03, 2018, 06:49:28 PM
I guess I'm missing something! Why would people pay as much, and often more, for a GRAHAM FARISH KIT BUILT LANGLEY locomotive? The answer may be simple, but I've waited to ask it hoping to figure it out myself. I just don't get it! :)

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Dorsetmike on November 03, 2018, 08:56:42 PM
Sounds like Antique toys is at it again, avoid like the plague, he's reknowned for exorbitant prices for badly described rubbish.
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: chrispearce on November 04, 2018, 02:58:55 PM
Maybe the philosophy is that someone bought a kit then built and painted it by hand rather than the model coming out of a mould and factory painted. The view is the higher degree of hand-crafting and time is used to justify a higher price?
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on November 06, 2018, 02:32:58 AM
Maybe the philosophy is that someone bought a kit then built and painted it by hand rather than the model coming out of a mould and factory painted. The view is the higher degree of hand-crafting and time is used to justify a higher price?

Chris, I've no doubt that's the view of the seller. What buyer would be willing to pay exorbitant prices for a kit built locomotive? I've looked at a lot of them and see nothing special. I can't judge the build of the chassis and motor, however. But, maybe there is more that I just don't understand. That's why I ask.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on November 06, 2018, 03:00:22 AM
(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/71/6724-081118195427.jpeg)

With some reluctance, I've posted a revision of my track plan! While gluing and testing track, I realized the full implication of some tight curves. I re-visited AnyRail once again and spent a few more hours working out a way to eliminate some 45 degree compact track and tight points. Only the curve in the bottom left corner of the layout remains, and I'm confident there is no fix for that one. I also decided to change the main station platforms, again. Doing so will result in a less prototypical station but a more functional one (I hope). It IS Wiltsbury and Biss River (look for those on your map!), so I can do as I like. :) I'm making deliberate progress with the landscape and one of these days the grass will start growing!

Some have suggested, politely, that I might consider a simpler plan with less track. I've decided that would be too simple and practical, so I proceed with the original inspiration. I've no doubt there will still be changes since with every iteration I think there has been an improvement. This time around I was able to reduce the number of points from 21 to 18! I'll have a lot of switches, however, for isolating track and changing polarity. But, I'm still confident I can make it work!

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: chrispearce on November 06, 2018, 04:42:15 AM
Maybe the philosophy is that someone bought a kit then built and painted it by hand rather than the model coming out of a mould and factory painted. The view is the higher degree of hand-crafting and time is used to justify a higher price?

Chris, I've no doubt that's the view of the seller. What buyer would be willing to pay exorbitant prices for a kit built locomotive? I've looked at a lot of them and see nothing special. I can't judge the build of the chassis and motor, however. But, maybe there is more that I just don't understand. That's why I ask.

Leon, I agree completely. The philosophy I stated is, I feel, the philosophy used by the seller. However, we are rarely looking at a superbly crafted 2mm scale rendering of the prototype. Really these models are just whitemetal bodies stuck on the closest match chassis and, while good for expanding the range of possible locos, just don't equal the output of today's RTR manufacturers. However, that said, an opportunity to try to flog something at a higher price is, well, business. Maybe, we will see the seller face reality and see him selling it for 50p in time!

Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on November 06, 2018, 04:58:56 PM
Maybe, we will see the seller face reality and see him selling it for 50p in time!

Chris, I doubt I'll live to see the day when kit built locomotives sell for 50 pounds and if I do, I'll not be buying, even at that price. It seems to me that sellers are asking us to pay for the pleasure they derived from the building of the model!

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: chrispearce on November 06, 2018, 08:19:00 PM
Maybe, we will see the seller face reality and see him selling it for 50p in time!

Chris, I doubt I'll live to see the day when kit built locomotives sell for 50 pounds and if I do, I'll not be buying, even at that price. It seems to me that sellers are asking us to pay for the pleasure they derived from the building of the model!

Leon

LOL!! Sorry, Leon, 50p in blighty money is 50 pence. I certainly did not mean £50.00!  :D
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on November 07, 2018, 12:28:53 AM
Chris, I doubt I'll live to see the day when kit built locomotives sell for 50 pounds and if I do, I'll not be buying, even at that price. It seems to me that sellers are asking us to pay for the pleasure they derived from the building of the model!
Leon
LOL!! Sorry, Leon, 50p in blighty money is 50 pence. I certainly did not mean £50.00!  :D

Chris, I knew what you meant, but wanted to make it clear that even if the price is dropped to just 50 pounds in my lifetime, I'll not be buying one. I guess I should have said I'd not pay 50 pence, but I might want to give that kind of offer some consideration. :) I might even consider bidding up to 5 pounds!

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on November 07, 2018, 07:59:39 PM
I would be grateful for comments about the static grass applicator at
https://www.ebay.com/itm/GJ05-Mini-Flocking-Static-Grass-Applicator-SCENIC-MODELLING-NEW-/352444365169?_trksid=p2349526.m4383.l4275.c10#viTabs_0
 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/GJ05-Mini-Flocking-Static-Grass-Applicator-SCENIC-MODELLING-NEW-/352444365169?_trksid=p2349526.m4383.l4275.c10#viTabs_0)

I'm most impressed with the landscaping I've seen using this device, and comments I've read on the Forum from those who are using the process.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: port perran on November 07, 2018, 08:10:06 PM
Iís not the same model as mine Leon but looks very similar so Iím sure itís ok.
Mine is the  WWS model Which comes with a complete kit of the stuff youíll need.
https://www.war-world.co.uk/product.php/the_new_pro_grass_micro_static_grass_applicator_with_embankment_kit/?k=:::6702447:0 (https://www.war-world.co.uk/product.php/the_new_pro_grass_micro_static_grass_applicator_with_embankment_kit/?k=:::6702447:0)
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on November 07, 2018, 08:21:52 PM
Iís not the same model as mine Leon but looks very similar so Iím sure itís ok.
Mine is the  WWS model Which comes with a complete kit of the stuff youíll need.
https://www.war-world.co.uk/product.php/the_new_pro_grass_micro_static_grass_applicator_with_embankment_kit/?k=:::6702447:0 (https://www.war-world.co.uk/product.php/the_new_pro_grass_micro_static_grass_applicator_with_embankment_kit/?k=:::6702447:0)

Martin, thanks for the link I didn't know about that site, so I've added it to my bookmarks. Other than the duplication of time and effort, is there a downside to using the "old-fashioned" grass and resowing with static grass later?

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: port perran on November 07, 2018, 08:28:17 PM
Iís not the same model as mine Leon but looks very similar so Iím sure itís ok.
Mine is the  WWS model Which comes with a complete kit of the stuff youíll need.
https://www.war-world.co.uk/product.php/the_new_pro_grass_micro_static_grass_applicator_with_embankment_kit/?k=:::6702447:0 (https://www.war-world.co.uk/product.php/the_new_pro_grass_micro_static_grass_applicator_with_embankment_kit/?k=:::6702447:0)

Martin, thanks for the link I didn't know about that site, so I've added it to my bookmarks. Other than the duplication of time and effort, is there a downside to using the "old-fashioned" grass and resowing with static grass later?

Leon
Not really.
Depending on how I want it to look I either simply paint the surface green then apply static grass direct or I put down a layer of green scatter (I think thatís the old fashioned stuff you mention) then apply static grass.
So....yes you can apply static grass retrospectively to the old fashioned stuff.
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on November 16, 2018, 07:49:39 PM
I re-visited AnyRail and spent a few more hours working out a way to eliminate some 45 degree compact track and tight points. Only the curve in the bottom left corner of the layout remains, and I'm confident there is no fix for that one. I also decided to change the main station platforms, again. Doing so will result in a less prototypical station but a more functional one (I hope). I was able to reduce the number of points from 21 to 18! (I have only two excess points after relaying the track, as I added a left crossover above Biss River Station!)
Leon

A quick update to prove I've not fallen by the wayside! I did not have all the track I needed to execute the changes quoted above, so while awaiting delivery of the needed track I've been adjusting some of the hard landscape. Working out the variations in elevations has been my most difficult task, I think, and I'm still carving foam - building up (and tearing down) landscape sections to try and keep the changes in elevation as realistic as possible. I'm reasonably satisfied with everything but the tunnel - which requires some fairly steep inclines at the back (top) of the layout - behind Biss River Station and in the top left corner where the Bath line will disappear. I'm pretty much ready to tie together the tunnel sections, but while I've left openings at the back for track access I feel the need to be able to lift the entire tunnel structure until I'm confident I can safely run the trains without derailments (one double crossover and one left turnout are in the tunnel). The total length is about eight feet, but I'll probably divide it into two parts.

I've taken delivery of my Dean Goods locomotive from Union Mills and have ordered a Dukedog! Hope to run them within a couple of weeks. When I do, I'll take a photograph of them on the tracks (despite the barren state of the layout). I've asked Santa for a station building and platforms!

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: chrispearce on November 17, 2018, 05:36:45 AM
Good idea to make that tunnel removable, especially if you have points etc. buried in there. Maybe try to make the removable parts a bit smaller for ease of handling - if they are too big they could be a cumbersome and risk damage. I would divide the lift-off bits in to 3 rather than 2 and make the piece which sits over the scissors and adjacent point a nice convenient lift out piece in its own right. Points etc need more attention than plain track. I think this will make routine maintenance more of a pleasant and hassle-free task.

Good to hear of your progress. Look forward to seeing your pics.  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on November 17, 2018, 04:08:53 PM
I would divide the lift-off bits into 3 rather than 2 and make the piece which sits over the scissors and adjacent point a nice convenient lift out piece in its own right.

Chris, good advice which I shall be following.  I should be able to hide the joins when I begin detailing.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on November 19, 2018, 01:16:51 AM
Attended my first train show, yesterday. Didn't really know what to expect, but it was not unlike the many antique shows I've attended over the years at the same location. Dozens (maybe over a hundred) dealers, but nary a British train in sight. There were a few layouts in various gauges, and one large N club layout featuring some interesting scenes. Apparently, it consisted of members' individual layouts forming a large rectangular loop. Posted below are a couple of cell phone pictures. The first is N but I believe the second was HO.

Royal American Shows

(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/71/6724-191118010527.jpeg)

Disneyland?

(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/71/6724-191118011516.jpeg)

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: chrispearce on November 19, 2018, 09:34:57 AM
Nice pics Leon. The whole American modular thing is interesting. I believe it revolves around the idea that each module has 3 tracks of a fixed distance apart so that, as you say, quite huge layouts can be built. YouTube has a lot of these which can be viewed but, for obvious reasons, watching a long freight wind its way around one of these layouts can take some time! Hope all is going well in your private corner of Wiltshire!  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Hailstone on November 19, 2018, 11:44:59 AM
Several of the N gauge society area groups operate modular layouts, I am a member of the Berkshire area group which has a running day once a month, where I can run 12 coach passenger trains and 40+ wagon freight trains, which are far too long for my layout. these meetings are also a social occasion where I can talk about railways to people of a like mind. I would recommend that you try and find a club local to you even if they don't all model N gauge or British railways they would be a source of help, advice and maybe friendship

Regards,

Alex
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on November 19, 2018, 05:21:47 PM
I would recommend that you try and find a club local to you even if they don't all model N gauge or British railways they would be a source of help, advice and maybe friendship

Alex, thanks for your observations and I agree it would be nice to have a local model club. The nearest one to me is 30 miles - a normal commuting distance here, but a little further than I normally venture these days. I did drive 38 miles to the train show, so it is a possibility. This forum will likely continue to be my primary source for advice and assistance. It's no substitute for sharing a coffee or pint with friends but is probably the next best thing.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: chrispearce on November 19, 2018, 05:50:31 PM
We can do virtual coffee and pints. Neither tastes any good but it's the thought that counts. However, the banter and pics are very real and the community think-tank is superb!  :D
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Hailstone on November 20, 2018, 12:48:18 PM
I would recommend that you try and find a club local to you even if they don't all model N gauge or British railways they would be a source of help, advice and maybe friendship

Alex, thanks for your observations and I agree it would be nice to have a local model club. The nearest one to me is 30 miles - a normal commuting distance here, but a little further than I normally venture these days. I did drive 38 miles to the train show, so it is a possibility. This forum will likely continue to be my primary source for advice and assistance. It's no substitute for sharing a coffee or pint with friends but is probably the next best thing.

Leon

My club is 50 miles away, that is why I only go once a month, they understand that I am rarely available for club meetings in the evenings!

Regards,

Alex
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on November 21, 2018, 09:44:46 PM
I'll say it again! Ballasting can't be as bad as gluing!!!

I'm not there, yet, but have bought some Woodland Scenics ballast - one canister of fine and one medium. I've watched numerous videos of demonstrations, read many articles, and perused forums. The impression I came away with is that most N modellers are using fine. That's fine (pun intended) but it doesn't look like the rock I see in real-time photos. I went back to the images from my trip to Westbury and my hunch seems to be borne out. At the very least some medium mixed with fine could produce a better result - in theory. Color is another decision to be made. I bought gray blend fine and gray medium. In the picture below, note that there is some brown mixed in, also.

I know ballast reflects the use of the tracks and the source of the rock and while I don't want to be too fussy I do want to model as close to the real thing as possible. Comments on color and texture will be appreciated.

Leon

(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/71/6724-211118214135.jpeg)
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: daveg on November 22, 2018, 07:52:52 AM
I also use a mix of fine and medium ballast; possibly a 80/20 mix with fine being the main ingredient.

To avoid a visually boring even colour, I've also used a mix of colours without it looking too sudden a change - lengths of track are regularly 'refreshed' and I noticed just that yesterday here at Worcester Foregate street station.

Not sure if this photo helps but here is a moderately OK shot (Must try harder!) of some ballasting I've done.

(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/67/1087-250718083828.jpeg)

I have glued most of the ballast down using a dilute Copydex mix. Ballast Magic seems to set rock solid and in my case, considerably increased the level of noise from the track.

Dave G
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Innovationgame on November 22, 2018, 08:39:20 AM
I'm glad you confirm that Track Magic sets rock hard.  Some forum members seem to have had difficulty getting it to set.  I agree that the noise level increases with Track Magic, but it reduces over time with a lot of running.  I quite like the additional noise.  I think it sounds like trains running at speed in the distance, but each to his own, as they say. :beers:
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: njee20 on November 22, 2018, 09:02:50 AM
Ballast Magic surely? Track Magic is the cleaning solution.
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Innovationgame on November 22, 2018, 09:42:14 AM
Ballast Magic surely? Track Magic is the cleaning solution.
Yes, my mistake.  I should have said Ballast Magic.  Track Magic is filthy stuff that seems to gum everything up.
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: port perran on November 22, 2018, 09:54:20 AM
I'll say it again! Ballasting can't be as bad as gluing!!!

I'm not there, yet, but have bought some Woodland Scenics ballast - one canister of fine and one medium. I've watched numerous videos of demonstrations, read many articles, and perused forums. The impression I came away with is that most N modellers are using fine. That's fine (pun intended) but it doesn't look like the rock I see in real-time photos. I went back to the images from my trip to Westbury and my hunch seems to be borne out. At the very least some medium mixed with fine could produce a better result - in theory. Color is another decision to be made. I bought gray blend fine and gray medium. In the picture below, note that there is some brown mixed in, also.

I know ballast reflects the use of the tracks and the source of the rock and while I don't want to be too fussy I do want to model as close to the real thing as possible. Comments on color and texture will be appreciated.

Leon

([url]http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/71/6724-211118214135.jpeg[/url])

That BRSA building opposite the station entrance has now been demolished.
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: daveg on November 22, 2018, 10:47:05 AM
Ballast Magic surely? Track Magic is the cleaning solution.
Yes, my mistake.  I should have said Ballast Magic.  Track Magic is filthy stuff that seems to gum everything up.

My error also. Should have written Ballast Magic - apologies Leon and others!  :-[

Dave G
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on November 22, 2018, 06:12:36 PM
I also use a mix of fine and medium ballast; possibly a 80/20 mix with fine being the main ingredient.
... here is a moderately OK shot (Must try harder!) of some ballasting I've done.

Ballast Magic seems to set rock solid and in my case, considerably increased the level of noise from the track.

Dave G

Dave, I have difficulty remembering who is using what, but it appears from your photo that you're using flex track. I very much like your ballasting, and I hope to achieve something close. My track is Kato, so I have a molded roadbed to cover. One video suggested applying PVA to the roadbed before applying an initial coating of ballast. I think fine ballast would be appropriate for this stage, but I like the idea of a mix of texture and color for subsequent applications. Kato roadbed simulates gray blend and it seems almost pointless to cover it with more gray blend. My gray Medium Ballast is darker and my inclination is to mix it with the Gray Blend Fine Ballast at a ratio similar to yours, and add a bit of brown. I've even thought about mixing in some black cinders, particularly in the station area.

Like Laurence, I don't mind the noise. With my frame and baseboard, there is already plenty of noise so I doubt that the ballasting will make it worse. It might even improve the sound.

Thanks for all for the comments and suggestions. One day soon I'll take an "off layout" section of track and do a trial run.

Today, we're celebrating Thanksgiving which was established in a Presidential decree by George Washington - not to celebrate our political independence but rather to emphasize gratitude for "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" as "one Nation under God." Like Christmas, many Americans don't know the origin of this holiday. I don't know the origins of your Thanksgiving, but I expect there was a similar intent, so I wish you a belated Happy Thanksgiving!

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on November 22, 2018, 06:28:59 PM

That BRSA building opposite the station entrance has now been demolished.

It WAS a bit of an eyesore! Mind you, there is nothing very attractive about Westbury Station. I'm not sure I can improve on it by modelling Wiltsbury, but I'll try. I think Westbury probably was rather more attractive in GWR days.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on November 24, 2018, 03:45:55 PM
Although I'm a long way from placing them on my layout, I've been buying figures - animals and people, and other detail items. The quality varies considerably, as all of you will know, but my latest purchase, Woodland Scenics (Scenic Accents) Goodbye People is the best I've seen. These models are exemplary in their proportions and the coloration of the figures - expensive but like trees, worth it for a focal point on a layout. I do have one concern, however. The feet of the figures are so good I'm unsure how I'll "plant" them without losing that part of the anatomy!

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: port perran on November 24, 2018, 03:52:55 PM
If you want your little people to be permanently in the same place, I normally apply a spot of PVA to each foot. Depending n how well balanced the little folk are, you may needto support then in place until the glue dries.
If you want to move the people around, either glue them to a small piece of clear plastic sheet or use a tiny blob of Tacky Wax on each foot.
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on November 24, 2018, 04:16:00 PM
If you want your little people to be permanently in the same place, I normally apply a spot of PVA to each foot. Depending n how well balanced the little folk are, you may needto support then in place until the glue dries.
If you want to move the people around, either glue them to a small piece of clear plastic sheet or use a tiny blob of Tacky Wax on each foot.

Great tips, Martin! Thanks! I'm so heavy handed it won't be easy for me to apply "a spot of glue". (If you saw the mess I made yesterday with Hydracal and Foam Putty you'd understand my limitations!). I hadn't thought about clear plastic, and I'm not familiar with Tacky Wax. I'm creating a "moment in time" - a snapshot with the trains being the only variable, so I'll probably glue most of my figures.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: port perran on November 24, 2018, 04:31:35 PM
If you want your little people to be permanently in the same place, I normally apply a spot of PVA to each foot. Depending n how well balanced the little folk are, you may needto support then in place until the glue dries.
If you want to move the people around, either glue them to a small piece of clear plastic sheet or use a tiny blob of Tacky Wax on each foot.

Great tips, Martin! Thanks! I'm so heavy handed it won't be easy for me to apply "a spot of glue". (If you saw the mess I made yesterday with Hydracal and Foam Putty you'd understand my limitations!). I hadn't thought about clear plastic, and I'm not familiar with Tacky Wax. I'm creating a "moment in time" - a snapshot with the trains being the only variable, so I'll probably glue most of my figures.

Leon
Just pop a drop of PVA onto a small offcut of plasticard or something similar and dip your little chapís feet in. That will put just enough glue on the feet allowing you to place your figure wherever you like.
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on November 24, 2018, 07:35:50 PM
The image below represents the final (?) iteration of my track plan. The track has been glued down, the tunnel is almost finished, and I've decided to paint the rails and begin ballasting very soon. From everything I've read (and heard on youtube) ballasting is something that one should try to complete in small measures. Some even suggest it as a relaxing endeavor! (?) So, my objective will be to construct a few buildings (beginning with the main station and platforms) while I do the ballasting. I'm confident that for me the ballasting will be less stressful than the modelling of buildings. I'll post an image of the layout when the station and platforms are in place (next Thanksgiving?  :D). I'll also post an image of my impending ballasting test-run. I'm going to start with 60% fine gray blend, 20% medium gray, and 20% buff or brown (not decided, yet). Incidentally, I've been testing my track with one of my carriages, as I've altered the layout, to ensure I'm happy with the curves, clearances, etc. All the electrics are in place so I'll check to confirm the trains still run and the points are working before I start the ballasting.

Leon

(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/71/6724-241118193144.jpeg)
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on November 25, 2018, 02:43:12 AM
I've just come across an old postcard of Westbury Station and Iron Works. There is no date for the card but the Iron Works appears to be inactive. Notably, there are no sidings between the photographer and the Station. I'm still trying to clarify the extent of railway workings prior to WWII, and this postcard suggests there could have been less than I've assumed. "By 1920 the works had stopped smelting; the plant was auctioned off in 1939." Source:  'The Iron Industry in Wiltshire 1856 - 1939' (Bristol Industrial Archaeological Society (BIAS) Journal 12, 1979.

This is what I do while waiting for the glue to dry!  :D

https://picclick.co.uk/WESTBURY-Wiltshire-Iron-Works-and-362429923002.html#&gid=1&pid=1
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Jerry Howlett on November 25, 2018, 02:18:12 PM
I'll say it again! Ballasting can't be as bad as gluing!!!

That BRSA building opposite the station entrance has now been demolished.


Ballasting is far more than a 4 letter word!

As for the demise of the BRSA building drank a few pints in there when on a training course some years back.  Well you needed something to wash down the bread rolls for lunch!!

Jerry
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: keithbythe sea on November 25, 2018, 07:59:54 PM
I agree that tacky wax is an excellent way of fixing down figures. It is temporary, although I have found that it is effective for several months (and still counting). My rock climbers are still clinging on manfully. 👍
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on November 26, 2018, 12:08:04 AM
I agree that tacky wax is an excellent way of fixing down figures. It is temporary, although I have found that it is effective for several months (and still counting). My rock climbers are still clinging on manfully. 👍

Keith, Tacky Wax is available here, so I'll give it a try. Thanks for endorsing Martin's suggestion.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Newportnobby on November 26, 2018, 10:02:52 AM
I agree that tacky wax is an excellent way of fixing down figures. It is temporary, although I have found that it is effective for several months (and still counting). My rock climbers are still clinging on manfully. 👍

Keith, Tacky Wax is available here, so I'll give it a try. Thanks for endorsing Martin's suggestion.

Leon

If you own any Peco wagons they can have a predilection for coming uncoupled and a dab of Tack Wax usually cures that. Just another use, Leon.
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on November 26, 2018, 03:48:26 PM
If you own any Peco wagons they can have a predilection for coming uncoupled and a dab of Tack Wax usually cures that. Just another use, Leon.

Wow! You read my mind! I've been wondering what to do with wagons that won't stay connected. Thanks for the tip.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on November 26, 2018, 07:40:02 PM
Un-coupling is a subject for another day! :)

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on November 29, 2018, 05:22:50 PM
Must start constructing buildings. I keep putting it off! Now I'm waiting for my order of Artist's Loft - Arts & Crafts Creative Center. I'd rather keep buying than start working!!!

https://www.instagram.com/p/BqXSpWPDBqy/ (https://www.instagram.com/p/BqXSpWPDBqy/)

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: keithbythe sea on November 29, 2018, 09:44:08 PM
 :laughabovepost: Or, ďwhy do today what you can put off till tomorrow ď!

Go for it !!!  :D
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on November 29, 2018, 09:51:39 PM
ďwhy do today what you can put off till tomorrow ď!

Keith, my favorite maxim! I just finished some plastering, though, so I'm not altogether a "man of the future"! I DO have a hard time starting something I've never done before, however. And, to be honest, sometimes the things I HAVE done before.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: keithbythe sea on November 30, 2018, 07:16:44 AM
Itís that fine line between procrastination and ďmore haste - less speedĒ.  :D