N Gauge Forum

General Category => Crowdfunding => Topic started by: CeeDee on April 11, 2018, 08:28:22 PM

Title: Crowdfunding BR (SR) West Country / Battle of Britain Classes
Post by: CeeDee on April 11, 2018, 08:28:22 PM
Having seen the responses to my suggestion of crowd funding a generic King Arthur / S15 loco, there appears to be even more hunger for those Bulleids which I doubt we will ever see from Dapol.  When Dapol  first mooted their planned BoB / WC  locos, I had my name down for five of them immediately.  I am sure I'm not the only one either!  Sooo disappointed.   What say you ladies and gents? Worth a punt?
Title: Re: Crowdfunding BR (SR) West Country / Battle of Britain Classes
Post by: austinbob on April 11, 2018, 08:55:55 PM
Nice thought but not likely to be a successful punt IMHO.
By the way, your Facebook and YouTube links don't work for me??
 :beers:
Title: Re: Crowdfunding BR (SR) West Country / Battle of Britain Classes
Post by: port perran on April 11, 2018, 08:56:34 PM
Iím not a fan of crowd funding. Maybe itís just a bit alien to my way of thinking (I guess Iím a bit set in my ways).
But.....a BB or WC would be appealing.
Title: Re: Crowdfunding BR (SR) West Country / Battle of Britain Classes
Post by: longbow on April 11, 2018, 09:02:40 PM
I agree that an N Gauge BoB/WC would be a strong contender for crowdfunding. I did ask Dapol whether they would be interested in a commission on that basis but got no response. Other parties are no doubt reluctant to risk Dapol queering the pitch by reviving their project in the same manner as the Class 50.
Title: Re: Crowdfunding BR (SR) West Country / Battle of Britain Classes
Post by: CeeDee on April 11, 2018, 09:24:41 PM
Nice thought but not likely to be a successful punt IMHO.
By the way, your Facebook and YouTube links don't work for me??
 :beers:

Interestingly my FB and YT links don't work for me either! Twitter seems OK though.  Checked my usernames and they're fine...... ??????
Title: Re: Crowdfunding BR (SR) West Country / Battle of Britain Classes
Post by: Newportnobby on April 11, 2018, 09:56:06 PM
I'd go for almost any way of getting a BoB. If it makes Dapol extract their digit then I'd be sorry for the other method but at least I might get one in my lifetime!
Title: Re: Crowdfunding BR (SR) West Country / Battle of Britain Classes
Post by: Chetcombe on April 11, 2018, 10:06:46 PM
I agree that an N Gauge BoB/WC would be a strong contender for crowdfunding. I did ask Dapol whether they would be interested in a commission on that basis but got no response. Other parties are no doubt reluctant to risk Dapol queering the pitch by reviving their project in the same manner as the Class 50.

So let's make enough noise to get Dapol to revisit their decision! After all the BoB is a transition era model, in service until 1967, suits long expresses as well as short remnants of the ACE on West Country branchlines, is good for both Southern and Western Region layouts, has several liveries/eras and has plenty of preserved examples for both heritage layouts as well as main line registered examples for modern era fans... I would sign up for 3 or 4 whether through crowdfunding or through Dapol!
Title: Re: Crowdfunding BR (SR) West Country / Battle of Britain Classes
Post by: RailGooner on April 11, 2018, 10:35:36 PM
+1 here. :beers:
Title: Re: Crowdfunding BR (SR) West Country / Battle of Britain Classes
Post by: Dancess on April 12, 2018, 06:33:10 AM
Still have mine on pre-order but would be very interested.
Title: Re: Crowdfunding BR (SR) West Country / Battle of Britain Classes
Post by: CliveH on April 12, 2018, 07:03:49 AM
Lovely idea, and I'd put my hand in my wallet for five at the drop of a hat, but Dapol's silent threat will ensure this is a non-starter forever.

Cheers
Title: Re: Crowdfunding BR (SR) West Country / Battle of Britain Classes
Post by: longbow on April 12, 2018, 07:38:25 AM
Dapol's looming presence is a big issue but that's not insurmountable. A genuine crowdfunded project would be fully customer-funded up front, leaving the project manager with no financial risk in the event that Dapol get off the pot. But who would step up to run it? Farish and Dapol don't step on each other's feet, the smaller N Gauge specialists appear fully committed elsewhere and the big retailers have richer pickings in OO. 
Title: Re: Crowdfunding BR (SR) West Country / Battle of Britain Classes
Post by: Karhedron on April 12, 2018, 08:48:49 AM
I was going to buy a Dapol light Pacfic so if one came from another source, I would be happy to acquire from that instead. Put me down for one air-smoothed BoB/WC in late crest livery. They are always excellent locos for those who want a big Pacific on a short train. Is this shot of Hawkinge the ultimate in motive power overkill?

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-rkGpJtJFBy8/VRQxMf7YMJI/AAAAAAAEHrU/3rlP0JMMuxI/s1600/N%C2%BA34069%2BHawkinge%2Brunning%2Binto%2BMortehoe%2B%26%2BWoolacombe%2BStation%2Bfrom%2BIlfracombe%2C%2Bwith%2Ban%2Bup%2Btrain.%2BSome%2Btime%2Bduring%2Bthe%2B1950s..jpg)
Title: Re: Crowdfunding BR (SR) West Country / Battle of Britain Classes
Post by: Bealman on April 12, 2018, 08:54:32 AM
That is one very short train!

Lovely loco, though.  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Crowdfunding BR (SR) West Country / Battle of Britain Classes
Post by: Bob G on April 12, 2018, 01:57:39 PM
I had pre-ordered seven - all BR liveried smooth or rebuilt, early and late crest/early and late tenders, because they are classic for my era and location.

I am now re-numbering Chinese production MN rebuilds as WC/BB rebuilds as stand-ins, plus running three old Bachfar spam cans, all with replacement front bogies and retrofitted tender pickups.

In contrast, I only have two MN streamlined and desperately wait for Bachfar to do the rebuilt versions!

So put me down for three streamlined and four rebuilt WC/BBs, please.

Bob
Title: Re: Crowdfunding BR (SR) West Country / Battle of Britain Classes
Post by: CeeDee on April 13, 2018, 11:47:13 AM
I mentioned this topic on the Dapol BoB/WC forum and a Mr Jeremiah Bunyan makes the following points which sum up the manufacturer's position on crowdfunding:

"Crowdfunding is something that I've suggested to Dapol on quite a few occasions regarding a Class 87, Class 90 and Mk.3 Sleeper. Their response was sensible and straightforward, Dapol don't do crowdfunding because they are not comfortable asking customers for money upfront and they aren't comfortable holding onto customer's money.

Crowdfunding may seem straightforward, but it's more complex than it seems, each crowdfunding campaign has different T&C's based on the situation and environment. There's many risks involved too and recently a manufacturer had issues where many fake expressions and orders were created.

And to conclude, yes it's good to know that people are willing to crowdfund the model, but what are the numbers we're talking about here? In such a scenario one needs to sell more than 1000 models just to recoup the cost of development, are there enough of people to order 1000+ locos. 1000 is just an approximate and it could be more just to keep the RRP at a sensible level.

There's also another predicament:-

- If Dapol were to release the BoB/WC as a general release item, Dapol can periodically release locomotives over a span of a few years and recoup their investment. This is more sensible and easier on the pocket for us modelers who keep complaining about price rises.

- If Dapol were to release the BoB/WC as a crowdfunded model, then just to drum up lots of sales they'll have to offer as many names/numbers/variations as possible so that they maximize their sales, and the catch to that is that they'll have to only go ahead with models that have crossed the minimum batch numbers. Eg: RevolutioN are struggling to get interest for a few liveries in the Class 320/321, yet others have a lot of interest. The ones with low interest have impacted the project quite a bit. "
Title: Re: Crowdfunding BR (SR) West Country / Battle of Britain Classes
Post by: Newportnobby on April 13, 2018, 12:15:37 PM

- If Dapol were to release the BoB/WC as a crowdfunded model, then just to drum up lots of sales they'll have to offer as many names/numbers/variations as possible so that they maximize their sales, and the catch to that is that they'll have to only go ahead with models that have crossed the minimum batch numbers. Eg: RevolutioN are struggling to get interest for a few liveries in the Class 320/321, yet others have a lot of interest. The ones with low interest have impacted the project quite a bit. "

Then surely the answer is to make unnumbered/unnamed versions and let folks source the details they need from, for example, Fox Transfers. Instant satisfaction for Dapol, customer and maybe extra business for Fox or whoever :hmmm:
At least we'd get them!
Title: Re: Crowdfunding BR (SR) West Country / Battle of Britain Classes
Post by: longbow on April 13, 2018, 12:19:30 PM
So set up a separate crowdfunding organisation and commission Dapol/Bachmann/Rapido to do the production. Reduce the risk by taking money up front, to be refunded if the project fails to reach its funding target.
Title: Re: Crowdfunding BR (SR) West Country / Battle of Britain Classes
Post by: Bob G on April 13, 2018, 01:22:39 PM
Dapol dont seem to get it.

Another manufacturer, DJM, crowdfunded their OO class 71, based on a limited number of liveries and running numbers and a set number of each versions on the promise that these would not be available afterwards. i think it was 250 of each of 4 versions made.
Having sold them, DJM then went on to issue other models, with weathering and as shop special editions, with different running numbers.
Annoyingly the shops have cut the prices on these so that my crowdfunded model now seems expensive, but i wanted to get it off the starting blocks, which i did do.

Its also similar to the NGS producing a model with Bachmann, like the Queen Mary or the Inspection Saloon, to part pay for the dies and to get exclusivity for a while, but after two years, Bachmann can then sell other variants. OK that's not crowdfunding but what i'm trying to say is that there are loads of different business models for releasing models and i think Dapol have just got their head in the sand on this.

Or perhaps their cyclop's eye is on O gauge now.

Bob
Title: Re: Crowdfunding BR (SR) West Country / Battle of Britain Classes
Post by: DavidE257 on April 21, 2018, 12:08:40 AM
If there is a crowd funding project for a WC/BoB count me in! I do think Dapol have lost the plot on this particular model. It would be easy for them to sell multiple models to individuals (like me!) just by supplying a sheet of decals for alternative numbers like the PECO Jubilee had. I'm not at all surprised that several people here had multiple models on pre-order, you can't do post-war Southern without them, they were almost ubiquitous!
Title: Re: Crowdfunding BR (SR) West Country / Battle of Britain Classes
Post by: Roy L S on April 21, 2018, 09:05:38 AM
Certainly seems to me that the WC/BoB of all steam prototypes currently unavailable RTR in N has the biggest potential to succeed. Agreed, no Southern BR layout would be complete without them and with so many in preservation it adds further potential in later eras. Put simply it feels like a bit of a no brainer, but with Dapol hedging their bets it will be a risky one to be sure. Canny on their part but not really in the best interests of the hobby arguably.

Roy

Title: Re: Crowdfunding BR (SR) West Country / Battle of Britain Classes
Post by: longbow on April 21, 2018, 09:17:29 AM
Dapol have ruled out crowdfunding themselves but maybe a retailer could step up with a commission. Osbornes perhaps, given their focus on N Gauge?
Title: Re: Crowdfunding BR (SR) West Country / Battle of Britain Classes
Post by: leachsprite4 on April 21, 2018, 09:32:48 AM
My thought would be staged crowdfunding a draft model below.
initial expressions
Funding cad
Funding first tooling
Funding second tooling
Funding production
Final purchase

My bet would be once cad is produced dapol would get themselves back into this. Also to me (sorry in advance Ben and co) this would be the easier one for revolution to take on in the air smoothed form due to simpler outside motion.

The first challenge would really be to find someone with the cad skills and the potential manufacturer.

I'd also agree the first batch should be limited in choice at reasonable price to subscriber with future non subscribe versions being more expensive. On this basis I actually wonder if a commission via bachmann may work and I wonder what that cost would be. That said I would envisage once signed up they'd expect to see it through to completion even if dapol started up again.

Which brings us all back to the frustration of what dapol did and that they shelved this (and all steam projects) but developed the schools which was announced after and had less development on when the changes team occurred.

Graham
Title: Re: Crowdfunding BR (SR) West Country / Battle of Britain Classes
Post by: DavidE257 on April 21, 2018, 10:37:32 AM
I don't understand the decision to do the Schools over the Bulleids either. Dapol are probably wondering why sales of it are a bit disappointing, possibly... I must admit I'd like to meet their marketing people, some of their decisions do seem rather strange, and always have done. The Class 22 diesel for instance is a very nice model (I have one) but it was never going to be a big seller, and it seems that even the big retailers struggle to shift them.

I wouldn't actually be too bothered if a manufacturer produced runs post-crowd funding that were a bit cheaper. I'm fed up with not being able to model the late 60s Southern with any authenticity. You can't renumber a Bachmann/GF Merchant Navy as a WC/BoB (either type) IMHO, it just doesn't look right to me.  I've had to become a 'transition era' modeller with a growing collection of diesels because the rolling stock is more or less the same!

Title: Re: Crowdfunding BR (SR) West Country / Battle of Britain Classes
Post by: Bealman on April 21, 2018, 10:40:13 AM
Interesting post!
Title: Re: Crowdfunding BR (SR) West Country / Battle of Britain Classes
Post by: longbow on April 21, 2018, 10:46:55 AM
IIRC Dapol had technical issues with the WC design, which used a loco-mounted motor rather than the tender drive used in the Schools. 
Title: Re: Crowdfunding BR (SR) West Country / Battle of Britain Classes
Post by: leachsprite4 on April 21, 2018, 10:56:04 AM
IIRC Dapol had technical issues with the WC design, which used a loco-mounted motor rather than the tender drive used in the Schools.

IIRC it wasn't on the original design for WC that decision for non tender drive was announced (which was for all tender locos) after mgt change and before school was developed further.
Title: Re: Crowdfunding BR (SR) West Country / Battle of Britain Classes
Post by: DavidE257 on April 21, 2018, 10:58:22 AM
Longbow - That's interesting. I'd have thought that the Spamcan would have been just about the easiest N-Gauge prototype to do a loco mounted motor - it's basically a box on wheels with no complex valve gear - could possibly understand issues with a rebuilt version.

I don't have any real issues with tender drive, particularly if loco drive is going to stop models coming on to the market!
Title: Re: Crowdfunding BR (SR) West Country / Battle of Britain Classes
Post by: leachsprite4 on April 21, 2018, 10:59:11 AM
Just to add 110 of them were originally built, was there a more numerous Pacific class or express loco class in the UK?
Title: Re: Crowdfunding BR (SR) West Country / Battle of Britain Classes
Post by: DavidE257 on April 21, 2018, 11:08:40 AM
Leachsprite4 - Yes, The Southern Region had the 2nd highest number of Pacifics after the LN(ER). Modelling the Southern Post War without light Bulleids is a bit like modelling the roads network in the 1970s, but leaving out the Ford Cortinas!
Title: Re: Crowdfunding BR (SR) West Country / Battle of Britain Classes
Post by: leachsprite4 on April 21, 2018, 11:09:15 AM
Being more positive dapol wanted a coreless motor in it so the question is does the class 68 have a coreless motor in it?

Title: Re: Crowdfunding BR (SR) West Country / Battle of Britain Classes
Post by: Roy L S on April 21, 2018, 11:12:14 AM
Indeed, unnumbered models are mentioned often as something people would buy and in theory at least sound a good idea. The reality though is that they don't sell and end up in the bargain lists. I don't think any manufacturer will entertain the idea now.

Roy
Title: Re: Crowdfunding BR (SR) West Country / Battle of Britain Classes
Post by: CliveH on April 21, 2018, 12:08:26 PM
I can see why a blank loco wouldn't sell, and the attractiveness of having DIY numbers would very much depend on the quality and ease of application of the stickers / decals.
To my mind there would be a 'base' loco - e.g 34001 Exeter - for those for whom any modification of a model strikes them into fear and trepidation. Any replacement cab side decals would have to be of comparable quality to the original, totally opaque and include fully matched base colour (any possibly lining) to avoid any clear film issues. Nameplate assemblies should be easily removable, and replacements should be of similar (or better?) quality. For a loco that's going to be around £150 ish I would have thought that £20 - £25 for an alternative identity indistinguishable in quality from the original would be fair enough.

Cheers
   
Title: Re: Crowdfunding BR (SR) West Country / Battle of Britain Classes
Post by: DavidE257 on April 21, 2018, 12:25:52 PM
The crests wouldn't even need changing if the alternative 'West Countries' were named after towns in the same County! The BoBs used the same RAF crest, I think, if they were named after Squadrons...the only real oddity was Sir Eustace Missenden...

BTW, If I were in the business of making N-Gauge steam locos I'd be thinking of something along the lines of the Hornby 'Railroad' series i.e. keep it simple, and the production costs down. I'd be using a standard tender drive along the lines of the PECO/Rivarossi and Union Mills offerings, trying to make it as smooth and reliable as possible...

The actual basic level of detail shouldn't be too difficult with modern methods, I'd probably leave out some of the really fiddly detail as production costs are being pushed up by lots of hand assembly these days. The ultra-purists may not like it, but 'needs must'...

Put it this way if Dapol or Bachmann don't someone else probably will. Probably not Hornby/Arnold as they're in dire straights financially again. I wonder if the Kato family visiting PECO recently is significant?
Title: Re: Crowdfunding BR (SR) West Country / Battle of Britain Classes
Post by: CliveH on April 21, 2018, 01:01:06 PM
The crests wouldn't even need changing if the alternative 'West Countries' were named after towns in the same County! The BoBs used the same RAF crest, I think, if they were named after Squadrons...the only real oddity was Sir Eustace Missenden...

Without boring you with details, but there are multiple shields / crests. Several WCs named after Cornwall towns without their own shield used the county shield (Yeovil used Somerset's - Sidmouth and Dartmoor used Devon's). A few BoBs used the RAF crest, but most WCs with a shield used one related to the town, and the BBs used the squadron or a family crests as relevant.

Cheers
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