N Gauge Forum

Your Layout and Models => Layout Planning => Topic started by: Gavin on March 05, 2018, 06:53:21 PM

Title: Kilsby Drift
Post by: Gavin on March 05, 2018, 06:53:21 PM
Kilsby Drift

Having succumbed to the temptation of a new Pendelino  from Revolution and with their imminent arrival I started to think about a layout to run them on.  I already had some class 350's in LMS green and grey livery so the layout would need to be  both WCML or other Pendelino route and somewhere the 350's  frequented.

I already have a modern layout (Crawley Yard)  http://grcrailways.co.uk/crawley-yard/ (http://grcrailways.co.uk/crawley-yard/) so already have a fleet of 66's and a range of mineral wagons so could I reuse these?    The Crawley Yard layout is modular and fits into the WSNG system but the new layout would need to be different.  It would need to be longer but for exhibitions it needs to have something to watch beyond the trains running round. Could I include some kind of industry or a station or both.

Whilst I'm not actually sure how long a 11 Car Pendelino is going to be I can estimate each coach at around 7 Inches and the power cars around 5 for a total around 84 Inches 7 Feet or 2.1M.  An  8 foot layout wasn’t going to cut it and a station would need to be massive if trains were going to stop.   The layout needs to fit in the car so I think if I kept the height down I could get 4 boards In the car - around 16 Feet of layout and with loops at each end that’s 12 foot scenic, reducing the pendelino down to 8 or 9 cars would be 6 feet so at least a space at each end

So that’s my basic criteria defined,  I'm going to use the same Gaugemaster Prodigy set up and JMRI as the current layouts but maybe with two operator positions similar to layouts such as Banbury

   • WCML with Catenary - Running full length Pendelinos
   • Exhibition focused -  Main Line Running
   • Independent fiddle yards to allow fast flow of trains onto scenic section
   • DCC Control,  JMRI Route setting on Laptop PC's  (one each end)

One of the great things about building modern based layouts is Google Earth,  Having looked at the Pendelino routes and starting in London I started to work northwards looking for potential locations. Watford was interesting but far too complicated.   Just north of Northampton I came across the Dirft Railport and the genesis of the layout was conceived.    Not aggregates but containers and not just a couple but hundreds.   Would it all fit ?
Title: Re: Kilsby Drift
Post by: Gavin on March 05, 2018, 07:15:25 PM
First draft of  a potential trackplan attached,   Going to be tight in 12 feet even with lots of compression but managed to get a sweeping curve included for the main line with some long exchange sidings and 4 roads for the Railport section I'm going to model.  I'm not sure about the Fiddleyard and if the design isn't to complicated and if having 3 long roads for each line wouldn't be better. The headshunt is also an issue and I think would require a break of a smaller number of container wagons to be propelled around by what I think is a class 08 shunter .
Title: Re: Kilsby Drift
Post by: Yet_Another on March 05, 2018, 07:25:04 PM
Um, that plan isn't really helpful. 10MB of many A4 sheets is not easily readable on a computer.  :no:  ;)
Title: Re: Kilsby Drift
Post by: themadhippy on March 05, 2018, 07:30:57 PM
presume your going to invoke rule 1 from the start ,most of the fast wcml traffic  turns left just after roade ,or right just after rugby.The line from roade to rugby that passes drift normally only carries slower local traffic.
Title: Re: Kilsby Drift
Post by: PostModN66 on March 05, 2018, 07:53:47 PM

   • WCML with Catenary - Running full length Pendelinos

Hurrah!  Not much n-gauge catenary about; most people just put the masts up and leave it at that.   :(

Cheers Jon  :)
Title: Re: Kilsby Drift
Post by: Gavin on March 05, 2018, 07:56:19 PM
Revised the drawing as I hadn't appreciated the way that Any Rail formats PDF's.   

 Didn't know about the line only being for slow traffic.  May have to continue the search or consider a failure on the other line acceptable :-(
Title: Re: Kilsby Drift
Post by: Gavin on March 12, 2018, 05:37:17 AM
Interesting article this month in one of the magazines about the overhead power wires used in different parts of the network and how these have developed over the last 80 years or so.   When I initially envisaged the layout I was thinking of something quite heavy duty with regularly spaced structured overhead frames.  Looking at the pictures around Kilsby the uprights are fairly lightweight and the same for the overhead wires.  This may be a challenge in N Gauge and maybe another reason to look for an alternate location with something a little more durable and buildable.   

One of the key things to do over the summer will have to be some primary research, having mainly lived south of London I have no photos and apart from rare glimpses of some overhead when on holidays. Going to need a few pictures and probably a couple of site visits to nail this.  If anyone has any pictures around Dirft I could use that would be very useful - thanks - A fair few pictures on line Flickr and Britishrailways.tv but need my own to post.

I've never studied this subject.  I have seen a few layouts with this done some with wires and some with just the frames so I'll be looking at this in detail over the next shows I attend.   Jon,  I'll go back and look at how you did it on Deansmoor as I remember that being very effective although not seen this now for a year or so.
Title: Re: Kilsby Drift
Post by: Gavin on March 12, 2018, 05:45:58 AM

Link to one of Deansmoor photos from Jon and Neil.  I think the catenary is the same or similar at Kilsby so It certainly looks doable. Just need to carry on the reading now and find out how you did it :-)
Title: Re: Kilsby Drift
Post by: Gavin on March 12, 2018, 05:48:32 AM
Link to N  Brass Loco's  website,  A range of different options here to consider

http://www.nbrasslocos.co.uk/ncat.html (http://www.nbrasslocos.co.uk/ncat.html)
Title: Re: Kilsby Drift
Post by: Newportnobby on March 12, 2018, 09:38:11 AM
Burshaw North Western is a fine example of a layout without the 'knitting' but with the masts......

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7gy_0uRPH7w (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7gy_0uRPH7w)
Title: Re: Kilsby Drift
Post by: njee20 on March 12, 2018, 09:59:00 AM
Only just spotted this!

Yes, plenty of examples of both, with some done very well and some less so (IMO). Plenty of decent layouts without the knitting - Horseley Fields, Drem, AndyRA's "West Coast southern section" on here.

Personally for me I think layouts look better with the wires - I totally get the thing about 'scale viewing distances', and how you can't see the wires etc, but my eye expects to see them! Kinlet Wharf, Deansmoor above, definitely for the better. I can think of one or two I've seen where the execution hasn't been as good, but names elude me, and it would be unfair when they're probably still better than I'd manage!

Re: the location, DIRFT itself is obviously more expansive - so whilst Pendolinos don't usually operate past DIRFT, I think using it as the basis for an intermodal terminal rather than a faithful reproduction is reasonable - plenty of logistics hubs in the West Midlands after all. Or yes, consider engineering works on the route between Roade and Rugby.
Title: Re: Kilsby Drift
Post by: Gavin on March 12, 2018, 11:27:23 AM
Snaffled a post from the competiton,   Ben if you read this I hope you don’t mind :-)

“Hi there,
When we in the NGS Northants and Cambs area group decided to depict OHLE I had a good look at both real catenary and other models I admired.
My conclusions were that:
1)  When we look at real catenary, we usually do it from quite close and below - for example on station platforms - so it is silhouetted against the sky and catches the eye.  We rarely if ever see our models this way.  We normally view our models from above, and from at least 50 scale metres.  When you look at catenary this way - say from the top of a car park - the wires tend to disappear.
2)  I am not convinced that in N anything approaching scale wire is realistically achievable.  I have certainly never seen it.  Even OHLE layouts I admire with catenary has it either noticeable over scale, or not straight.  Probably the best I have seen is on Alan Whitehouse's  "mini Manchester-Sheffield-Wath" in 2mm and that is done with elasticated fishing wire I believe; but because it is all under tension the contact wire is pinched toward the support wire, rather than being level.
3)  Even "stretchy" catenary makes track access and baseboard joins problematic.  For an exhibition layout that needed to be portable and regularly cleaned this was an issue.
For these reasons we went for masts but no wires.  We used Dapol masts with portals from N Brass and Statesman.  There are plenty of photos of the layout in our thread.  Of course as others have said, in the end only you can decide what are the priorities for your layout. “

More food for thought
Title: Re: Kilsby Drift
Post by: Gary Burcombe on March 12, 2018, 01:46:05 PM
The catenary wires aren't meant to be totally straight.  If they were, they would wear a groove in the pantograph contact.  However, kinks in the wire between pylons would look very odd. 
Title: Re: Kilsby Drift
Post by: njee20 on March 12, 2018, 02:02:35 PM
Without wish to a) totally divert the topic and b) be 'that person', the catenary wire is just the uppermost wire on most conventional OHLE systems, which follows an arc between masts. The contact wire should indeed be straight - I think Ben's quoted post is eluding to the catenary wire being under tension such that the contact wire is pulled up toward it, which it shouldn't be.

There should be stagger on the wires such that the contact (and catenary) wires 'zig-zag' left to right as you say, to spread the wear on the pantograph head. No reason this shouldn't be modelled. There should never be 'kinks', it's wire under tension, inherently it can't kink.

For anyone interested in the technicalities of OHLE Clive Mortimore has some great schematics linked to from here (http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/97786-ohle-where-to-start-lots-of-research-still-no-idea/).
Title: Re: Kilsby Drift
Post by: Claude Dreyfus on March 15, 2018, 08:17:51 PM
presume your going to invoke rule 1 from the start ,most of the fast wcml traffic  turns left just after roade ,or right just after rugby.The line from roade to rugby that passes drift normally only carries slower local traffic.

A quick glance on google images using something like 'Dirft Pendolino' will prove some photographic evidence to confirm that they do pass the Dirft site (admittedly not an everyday sight, but regularly enough to be more than plausible).
Title: Re: Kilsby Drift
Post by: Gavin on March 26, 2018, 09:29:54 PM
Many thanks Claude, a few photo's around when you look so no problems with the Pendelino's . Seen a few on Facebook now so assume I'll get mine soon.

I purchased some Megafret's  and KFA  Container wagons at the weekend,  Fiddly to get the draw bars in and very bouncy on the track,  Assume they will run better with some containers. The drawbars make them more difficult to push so going to need to think more about the operations.   From an outline perspective the loaded trains will run into the exchange sidings, disconnect at the front and drive off or wait. The shunter will come in from the other end, reverse back up the headshunt and then propel the wagons into the yard before uncoupling.  I need to validate the length of the headshunt and the propelling back around what I assume will have to be a bit of a bend.  I'd have liked to have more than 4 pairs in a set but I'll recut the drawings based on that size and see what the plan looks like.  Dapol easi shunt couplings for the engines, shunter and both ends of each rake.  To do a run around the shunting will take to much space and I assume they are propelled in at Dirft as I couldn't make out any crossovers in the yard to release the shunter.
Title: Curves and board widths
Post by: Gavin on April 03, 2018, 06:39:37 PM
Curves and Widths

Been following some posts on the Pendelino and thinking about the board widths as well as the length of the layout.  More on the length later. On the end board width I think I can stretch to 30 inches which with 2 main line curves gives me a an outer curve of around 28 inch diameter and an inner curve around 26 inches. Around a radius of 14 and 13 inches. The key question is will  the Pendelino fit around these and how far apart do they need to be to prevent touching.  The inner curve, 3rd line could then be around 11-12 inches.  All of these are standardised by peco as 2,3,4 radius and I believe it’s only 1st they have a problem with.  The 66’s are used to a 2nd radius, 11 inch curve on Crawley yard so should be ok on this.  Need to test now once I have one to run.   
Title: Re: Kilsby Drift
Post by: njee20 on April 03, 2018, 07:54:06 PM
My inner curves are about 11-12” radius Gavin, so you’re welcome to pop round and test sometime. Still waiting on my Pendolinos too so haven’t tried first hand yet!