N Gauge Forum

General Category => Crowdfunding => Topic started by: Karhedron on June 22, 2017, 03:51:53 PM

Title: Suggestion for RevolutioN Trains: Class 800 and 801 IEPs
Post by: Karhedron on June 22, 2017, 03:51:53 PM
Here's a suggestion for RevolutioN to follow on from their ground-breaking Pendolino. How about the new Class 800 and 801 trains (formerly known as the IEP) just entering testing on the GWML and ECML respectively? Once they enter fleet service they will be seen from Aberdeen to Penzance and will be delivered in GWR green and Viring red and white for starters. Here are some features that make them promising as a modelling proposition:


(http://www.modern-railways.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/20/2016/03/9543.jpg)

(https://c5.staticflickr.com/9/8420/28883435044_7d7fe43cbf_c.jpg)

@Ben A (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=94) and @red_death (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=246) death what do you think? Could this idea have mileage?
Title: Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN Trains: Class 800 and 801 IEPs
Post by: Ben A on June 22, 2017, 04:52:05 PM

Hi Matt,

These are gorgeous looking trains IMO and I would love to do them but as you probably know Hornby are producing them in 00 and I suspect a more realistic prospect - at least in the shorter term - is that they consider producing them in their Arnold brand as a follow up to the Brighton Belle.

So far Hornby seem to have shown little appetite to produce any more in British N, but it may be worth lobbying them.

Cheers

Ben A.
Title: Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN Trains: Class 800 and 801 IEPs
Post by: PLD on June 22, 2017, 05:44:30 PM
Here's a suggestion for RevolutioN to follow on from their ground-breaking Pendolino. How about the new Class 800 and 801 trains (formerly known as the IEP) just entering testing on the GWML and ECML respectively? Once they enter fleet service they will be seen from Aberdeen to Penzance and will be delivered in GWR green and Viring red and white for starters. Here are some features that make them promising as a modelling proposition:

  • Geographically widespread: They will be used on both the GWML and ECML as well as their spur routes.
  • They are being built as 5 and 9-car sets which would suit modellers who have modest layouts as well as larger mainline ones.
  • They are being produced in both Electro-diesel and electric-only formats so would suit modellers who don't want to string up catenary.
  • Common bodyshell meaning that both EMU and DEMU variants can be accomodated with underfloor engine variations.
  • 2 distinctive liveries at launch.
And not forgetting the Class 802 variant (Electro Diesel with longer range fuel tanks than the Cl 800) which also brings Hull Trains  (from mid 2018) and Transpenine (2019) into the frame as well as extending the GWR geographic range into the West Country...
Title: Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN Trains: Class 800 and 801 IEPs
Post by: Mustermark on June 23, 2017, 12:19:32 AM
I already want some of these!

(Personally, I doubt Hornby will do more in N).
Title: Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN Trains: Class 800 and 801 IEPs
Post by: ECMLfan on December 01, 2017, 12:29:16 PM
At Warley I asked Dapol if there was any chance of them looking into the class 800 and all they were able to come up with is that they tried but Hornby beat them.

Sad, but I think that Dapol could better try and come up with a decent FirstGW HST with proper neon lines as this clearly is something they donít master yet. However, their upcoming pacer looks to be a much desired model and looks stunning and spot on.
Title: Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN Trains: Class 800 and 801 IEPs
Post by: njee20 on December 01, 2017, 01:04:18 PM
At risk of going off tangentially the Dapol Dynamic Lines coaches are pretty good, although later batches (and buffets) aren't quite so crisp. I'm not quite sure either that or the Pacer are all that relevant to the 800s though. Presumably they were talking about OO gauge, rather than N anyway.

It's certainly an interesting prospect, I'm inclined to agree with Ben that it's one for the 'big boys' though.
Title: Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN Trains: Class 800 and 801 IEPs
Post by: Steven B on December 01, 2017, 01:21:05 PM
I was told by someone last weekend that the Azuma is something Kato are seriously looking at producing. I can't remember where he said he got his information from though.


Steven B.
Title: Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN Trains: Class 800 and 801 IEPs
Post by: Snowwolflair on December 01, 2017, 01:29:31 PM
Its not a mater of if but when and who makes them. 

The 800s are going to be the new HST and I have this from two of the three ROSCOs (the people who fund and own the trains in this country).

So there will be lots of users and lots of livery options for the next thirty years.

Kato already do a sister class of loco that could be modified by them, but is too big a change to hand modify.  Anyone want to try something on Shapeways?
Title: Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN Trains: Class 800 and 801 IEPs
Post by: woodbury22uk on December 01, 2017, 01:30:53 PM
I was told by someone last weekend that the Azuma is something Kato are seriously looking at producing. I can't remember where he said he got his information from though.


Steven B.

Kato have been in the UK over the past week, and talked to Ben Ando at Warley, spying on the Pendolino.
Title: Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN Trains: Class 800 and 801 IEPs
Post by: Snowwolflair on December 01, 2017, 01:33:28 PM
I was told by someone last weekend that the Azuma is something Kato are seriously looking at producing. I can't remember where he said he got his information from though.


Steven B.

Kato have been in the UK over the past week, and talked to Ben Ando at Warley, spying on the Pendolino.

Corporate Takeover Alert  :goggleeyes: >:D :D
Title: Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN Trains: Class 800 and 801 IEPs
Post by: Carmont on December 01, 2017, 02:08:47 PM
I was told by someone last weekend that the Azuma is something Kato are seriously looking at producing. I can't remember where he said he got his information from though.


Steven B.

Wouldn't that be to 1/160 or 1/158 though?
Title: Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN Trains: Class 800 and 801 IEPs
Post by: njee20 on December 01, 2017, 02:11:04 PM
Japanese N is 1:150, not quite the same, but far closer than continental prototypes. Would still equate to about 2cm discrepancy over the length of a 9 car unit.
Title: Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN Trains: Class 800 and 801 IEPs
Post by: Snowwolflair on December 01, 2017, 02:53:10 PM
Japanese N is 1:150, not quite the same, but far closer than continental prototypes. Would still equate to about 2cm discrepancy over the length of a 9 car unit.

Close coupling error. :D
Title: Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN Trains: Class 800 and 801 IEPs
Post by: RailGooner on December 01, 2017, 05:17:35 PM
Though Kato built the Eurostar to European N Scale, 1:160.
Title: Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN Trains: Class 800 and 801 IEPs
Post by: Claude Dreyfus on December 01, 2017, 06:36:25 PM
I would love to see Kato enter the UK market, with the 800-802 units being an obvious entry point (although the class  885 'white Sonic' units are of the same family as the class 395 (someone has converted one in the past)); however, it really don't think the volumes we could generate in the UK would justify it. If someone could convince them through the crowdfunding route, then that would be quite a coup.

To do that, you would at least need to demonstrate you could gather sufficient support for a model such as this, demonstrate you can work with a major manufacturer, making it worth their while...both in terms of sales and future initiatives.

I suspect if showing Kato-san the Pendolino and your relationship with Rapido doesn't do the trick, probably nothing will...
Title: Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN Trains: Class 800 and 801 IEPs
Post by: Ben A on December 01, 2017, 07:34:02 PM

Hello all,

Hiroshi Kato, the current president and son of the company's founder Yuji Kato, was at Warley and we had a chat.

He wanted to buy a Pendolino but I didn't have one to sell him!  And he missed the boat on pre-ordering!

More seriously, with the Class 800 series units being built by Htachi there is a clear interest from Kato in this model, and I suspect that the majority of their market would be in Japan where there area round 6 million N gauge modellers and there will be many of those who are the kind of collectors who buy iconic trains from all over the world (I know Rapido have an order for Pendolinos from at least one Japanese retailer) as well as those who just buy everything Kato produce.

Mr Kato was an interesting character and clearly knew what he was talking about; whether he takes the decision to go for the Azusa/800 is of course a matter for him.

The sticky issue is scale; in Japan the commuter train models are to 1:150 scale as the prototypes tend to run on 3'6 or 4'6 gauge track.   The standard gauge trains - primarily the Shinkansen - run on standard gauge track and the models are to 1:160 to be accurate.

I enthused to Mr Kato about the prospect of a Kato Class 800 but don't be surprised if it's to 1:160 scale.

Cheers

Ben A.
Title: Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN Trains: Class 800 and 801 IEPs
Post by: robert shrives on December 01, 2017, 08:36:03 PM
 :sorrysign: I am in my normal three minds over this. Historically Hornby can do us all a favour and get the model to market in OO quickly - Recall that the ATP - P was thus and the real thing quietly disappeared- a brave project failed at hands of others. Perhaps this will be the future of the Montzuma revenges presented to the railways by those experienced train procurers the DfT ( department of fuzy thinking.)
I hope that Hornby do not sit on an OO model only but make use of the sole build model licence it has from Hitachi and can do a range of liveries in both scales.   
 
Finally what an awful train - internal floors are not flat, small hard seats and like a Voyager diesel engines under vehicle floors - makes it a bus what ever fancy names bestowed upon its frame. I am sure its only teething troubles but hopefully it will be ok in time as it will become the standard Interurban product. Sadly it is just not good enough to be titled "Intercity."  I would not wish it on my worst enemy - and I run Voyagers !!
Title: Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN Trains: Class 800 and 801 IEPs
Post by: geoffc on December 03, 2017, 10:58:10 AM
At Warley I was told by a competitor that they were beaten by Hornby who have the rights to make both the OO and N versions of the Class 800. Therefore the competitor can not make an N gauge model, so it would appear that if Hornby don't make the N version there won't be one.

Geoff
Title: Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN Trains: Class 800 and 801 IEPs
Post by: captainelectra on December 03, 2017, 11:04:28 AM
I asked Hornby about plans for the IEP in N while admiring the OO version and got the impression it was not being ruled out when the market improves.
Title: Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN Trains: Class 800 and 801 IEPs
Post by: nobby on December 03, 2017, 09:03:21 PM
I asked hornby as well and pretty much got the same answer, um when the market improves , i read that as when hornby improves, there seems to be no shortage of money for the right trains and this smacks of house builders with land banking, i cant see why they wouldn't announce it even if not to make just yet , just to get a feel of the market and gauge the preorders , the problems i can see for hornby are as much of a nice model the BB was, they had cut corners and it showed , they would need to make the IEP to a higher standard to match the revolution pendolino. the hornby marketing and selling was a disaster for the BB   and lost some goodwill from customers and/or shops so another n gauge model will have to over come some of that to stand a good chance.  mind you if they do a very good job with the model then they will have years of possible reruns and with new liveries as franchises chop and change. 
Title: Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN Trains: Class 800 and 801 IEPs
Post by: WCML on December 30, 2017, 04:08:32 PM
Poor old Hornby🙄 They did the exact same thing with Live Steam of which I am quite involved.
Poor execution of production, instructions and even worse marketing and it was a crippled horse out of the trap!! I do hope they pick up the serious business model soon. Bachmann seem to offer a much better vision even if not to all tastes!
I own both versions of the Arnold Brighton Belle and find it a grand model to enjoy!
Title: Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN Trains: Class 800 and 801 IEPs
Post by: davidinyork on December 30, 2017, 06:53:13 PM
I wonder how well the 00 gauge model will sell, given the very high price? Yes, I'm sure the first productions runs will be OK as there will be lots of people wanting one, but with subsequent runs will the demand rapidly tail off if the price stays as high as it is?

I don't buy that many models now, and hardly any in 00 - my particular interest is HSTs, but the Hornby ones are now simply too expensive and I've not bought any recent releases. I doubt if I'm alone in this.
Title: Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN Trains: Class 800 and 801 IEPs
Post by: Arrachogaidh on January 02, 2018, 01:53:35 PM
AZUMA en route to Inverness passing near Gleneagles.

(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/60/1767-020118135020.jpeg)
Title: Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN Trains: Class 800 and 801 IEPs
Post by: NTrains on June 11, 2018, 10:53:00 PM
Is the TP Express Nova 3 not a varient of the hitachi IEP too? This would be a livery closer to my heart as they would run past my local station.

https://www.tpexpress.co.uk/travelling-with-us/the-nova-fleets/nova-1 (https://www.tpexpress.co.uk/travelling-with-us/the-nova-fleets/nova-1)
Title: Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN Trains: Class 800 and 801 IEPs
Post by: PLD on June 11, 2018, 11:26:05 PM
Is the TP Express Nova 3 not a varient of the hitachi IEP too? This would be a livery closer to my heart as they would run past my local station.

https://www.tpexpress.co.uk/travelling-with-us/the-nova-fleets/nova-1 (https://www.tpexpress.co.uk/travelling-with-us/the-nova-fleets/nova-1)
Yes, Class 802/2 variant - Electro Diesel with larger fuel tanks for extended range on diesel. As I understand it identical to the 5 units on order for Hull Trains...
Title: Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN Trains: Class 800 and 801 IEPs
Post by: RailGooner on June 11, 2018, 11:29:44 PM
Is the TP Express Nova 3 not a varient of the hitachi IEP too? This would be a livery closer to my heart as they would run past my local station.

https://www.tpexpress.co.uk/travelling-with-us/the-nova-fleets/nova-1 (https://www.tpexpress.co.uk/travelling-with-us/the-nova-fleets/nova-1)

 :hmmm: Dunno, but Nova 1 looks a dead ringer.
Title: Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN Trains: Class 800 and 801 IEPs
Post by: acko22 on June 11, 2018, 11:34:42 PM
I won't lie, personally I don;t see whats wrong with the 185s for Tranpennine  if they had the extra carriage as was the original plan that would make a world of difference.
But if 185s were used on routes like the Manchester to Chester route (via Altrincham) it would make the route (The busiest commuter rural serving commuter route in the North west), a hell of a lot more comfy since even the class 150s are becoming life expired!
 :offtopicsign:

I would love to see these done for the N gauge market in Transpennine livery it would fit in very nicely, but as Ben says there is the issues around rights in the UK (if not europe) been owned by Hornby. So if its a case of Kato doing them at 1:160 then thats close enough not perfect but closer than OO!!
Title: Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN Trains: Class 800 and 801 IEPs
Post by: Railwaygun on June 11, 2018, 11:58:07 PM
Hornby has secur d £18m in new funding/ borrowing but canned the Thomas line, which seems foolish.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2018/06/06/hornby-secures-18m-lifeline/ (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2018/06/06/hornby-secures-18m-lifeline/)

Whether they feel that the Belle was a success who knows? If so, they could punt on s new Hitachi, or sub- contract to revolution??

Oxford diecast are intimately linked the mHornby, so we must hope that the big H is successful, whatever it does.
Title: Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN Trains: Class 800 and 801 IEPs
Post by: PLD on June 12, 2018, 12:09:20 AM
I won't lie, personally I don;t see whats wrong with the 185s for Tranpennine  if they had the extra carriage as was the original plan that would make a world of difference.
Heavy, thirsty, uncomfortable (compared to a 158 or 170) and when running on two engines (because of failure or for "efficiency") slow accelerating.

On the Hull - Manchester's current 1x3 car 185 uses more fuel to provide fewer seats than the 2x 2 car 170s they replaced...
Title: Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN Trains: Class 800 and 801 IEPs
Post by: davidinyork on June 12, 2018, 08:54:06 AM
I won't lie, personally I don;t see whats wrong with the 185s for Tranpennine  if they had the extra carriage as was the original plan that would make a world of difference.

The problem with them is that they've tried to make something which is half commuter train (doors at 1/3 and 2/3 positions) and half 'intercity train (lots of tables). It doesn't really work. The aim is now clearly an 'intercity' operation, and the new trains are more designed for that, with end doors and vestibules.
Title: Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN Trains: Class 800 and 801 IEPs
Post by: Karhedron on June 12, 2018, 08:55:15 AM
Hornby has secur d £18m in new funding/ borrowing but canned the Thomas line, which seems foolish.

It depends how profitable the Thomas line is. Even if it sells well, they have to deduct royalties to the rights holders. IIRC those rights are now owned by Mattel so they may have plans for their own model line. Maybe Hornby decided it was not longer worthwhile (pure speculation on my part of course).
Title: Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN Trains: Class 800 and 801 IEPs
Post by: davidinyork on June 12, 2018, 08:57:35 AM
Is the TP Express Nova 3 not a varient of the hitachi IEP too? This would be a livery closer to my heart as they would run past my local station.

https://www.tpexpress.co.uk/travelling-with-us/the-nova-fleets/nova-1 (https://www.tpexpress.co.uk/travelling-with-us/the-nova-fleets/nova-1)
Yes, Class 802/2 variant - Electro Diesel with larger fuel tanks for extended range on diesel. As I understand it identical to the 5 units on order for Hull Trains...

It's 'Nova 1' which is the IEP (Hitachi). Nova 3 is a new design of EMU (CAF), and Nova 2 is the loco-hauled stock (also CAF), with the locos being Stadler Class 68s, subleased from DRS.
Title: Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN Trains: Class 800 and 801 IEPs
Post by: davidinyork on June 12, 2018, 08:58:31 AM
Hornby has secur d £18m in new funding/ borrowing but canned the Thomas line, which seems foolish.

It depends how profitable the Thomas line is. Even if it sells well, they have to deduct royalties to the rights holders. IIRC those rights are now owned by Mattel so they may have plans for their own model line. Maybe Hornby decided it was not longer worthwhile (pure speculation on my part of course).

Of they simply couldn't afford it? The licensing costs are bound to be pretty steep.
Title: Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN Trains: Class 800 and 801 IEPs
Post by: NTrains on June 12, 2018, 09:35:49 AM
Apologies, i dont know why i said Nova 3 when I linked Nova 1 and meant Nova 1!  :searchingsign:

Well, I guess weíll just have to see what happens in N. If Kato do it, i can only see them doing one of a couple of liveries, probably GWR, which will be a shame for me (I know, I know, Iím being selfish  :) )

If Hornby has the sole license then I guess we can kiss an N version goodbye.
Title: Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN Trains: Class 800 and 801 IEPs
Post by: davidinyork on June 12, 2018, 09:40:09 AM
If Hornby has the sole license then I guess we can kiss an N version goodbye.

Unless they sub-license to someone else? Given their financial difficulties, it might be something they could consider, if they don't want to do it themselves - would bring in some cash without them needing to do anything.
Title: Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN Trains: Class 800 and 801 IEPs
Post by: NTrains on June 12, 2018, 09:51:04 AM
Sub-Licencing is certainly an option. I suspect it would make an N version a little more expensive in this case, due to a license fee going back to Hornby. That said, any option is better than no option.
Title: Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN Trains: Class 800 and 801 IEPs
Post by: RailGooner on June 12, 2018, 09:51:21 AM
My gut* tells me Hornby will do it. If they don't drag their feet and crack on with it, it is surely bound to be a strong seller for the next decade and more.



* It could just be my IBS playing up. :D
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