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Your Layout and Models => 3D Modelling => Topic started by: baschurch-mike on March 30, 2016, 02:25:27 PM

Title: Cleaning Shapeways FUD
Post by: baschurch-mike on March 30, 2016, 02:25:27 PM
Hi Folks,

A Baldwin-Westinghouse loco has arrived in FUD. There is some evidence of the support wax and it will need a little "grinding" to sort out the flat sides. The question is:-

How do I clean it before undercoating? :help:

Thanks in Advance,

Mike Beard
Title: Re: Cleaning Shapeways FUD
Post by: NTrain on March 30, 2016, 03:01:23 PM
During printing, products are supported by a waxy material that is dissolved after printing is complete.

Wax is mostly removed with ultrasonic bathes. But the model remains waxy when shipped.

This wax must be removed before painting. The residual wax makes the plastic translucent.
Start with a first bath in warm water, brushing softly with a toothbrush.

Then alternate chemical liquids or sprays and warm bathes. Let the model dry between each cleaning cycle.

Chemical liquids successfully tested:
 medical isopropanol (IPA)
 stove cleaning spray
 stain remover for clothing
 acetone free nail polish remove

I use mostly isopropanol and stove cleaning spray.

Household detergents have mostly small effect on wax, but soap helps to rinse the model properly.

After a chemical cleaning  always rinse with water. Then use a low pressure compressed air source to blow out any blocked holes.
Once cleaned, the print looses its translucent aspect and becomes white. Some dried out wax remains as powder. The powder can be swept away with a soft brush and a needle. Compressed air can helps also.

Rinsing in water is always the last step before painting.
Title: Re: Cleaning Shapeways FUD
Post by: Only Me on March 30, 2016, 03:51:37 PM
I use Swarfega ... Great degreaser ...
Title: Re: Cleaning Shapeways FUD
Post by: baschurch-mike on March 30, 2016, 04:17:26 PM
Hi Guys,

 :thankyousign:

Mike Beard

Title: Re: Cleaning Shapeways FUD
Post by: baschurch-mike on April 01, 2016, 12:01:18 PM
Bob,

You mention stove cleaning spray. Can you give us a brand name as there are all sorts of stoves and therefore many forms of spray!

Thanks in Advance,

Mike Beard
Title: Re: Cleaning Shapeways FUD
Post by: Simon D. on April 01, 2016, 01:00:05 PM
This guy uses something called Bestine which the Americans all seem to use: https://jamestrainparts.wordpress.com/2014/12/15/cleaning-up-3d-printed-models/
Title: Re: Cleaning Shapeways FUD
Post by: mk1gtstu on April 01, 2016, 01:06:10 PM
I use white spirit, leave the item in a jar of it for 24-48 hours, take it out & leave to dry & it should turn white.

cheers, Stu
Title: Re: Cleaning Shapeways FUD
Post by: jrb on April 01, 2016, 01:07:37 PM
I use Swarfega ... Great degreaser ...

Thanks for that - I used it on one of my prints on Wednesday. Worked great (or at least I think it did, none of the paint has fallen off yet!).
Title: Re: Cleaning Shapeways FUD
Post by: baschurch-mike on April 01, 2016, 01:48:36 PM
Hi All,

The Americans do use a lot of Bestine but it is expensive and only available from one source in the UK. More importantly it makes aviation fuel look like water so you wouldn't want it around the house or garage. Hence the questions about other chemicals.

So far nobody has suggested using an ultrasonic cleaning bath in conjunction with IPA. Has anybody tried it? And is Surgical Spirit a good substitute for IPA or is it not pure enough?

Happy Times,

Mike Beard
Title: Re: Cleaning Shapeways FUD
Post by: NTrain on April 01, 2016, 02:41:25 PM
Bob,

You mention stove cleaning spray. Can you give us a brand name as there are all sorts of stoves and therefore many forms of spray!

Thanks in Advance,

Mike Beard

Afraid my notes are a combination of various different sources, so I do not have all the specifics.
Title: Re: Cleaning Shapeways FUD
Post by: robert shrives on April 03, 2016, 08:26:05 PM
Hi
fairy power spray has been mentioned on RM Web before now but I have no personal experience so over to you !!

Just used CIF and a toothbrush on my 180 body as part one of cleaning - will get a white spirit tonight and a futher CIF and rinse.
cheers
Robert
Title: Re: Cleaning Shapeways FUD
Post by: Oldman on April 04, 2016, 12:06:21 PM
IPA in an ultrasonic cleaner here , then a quick brush with a cheap battery powered toothbrush and rinse with distilled water.  No problems yet but be careful with the brush on small bits that stick up on the model.
Title: Re: Cleaning Shapeways FUD
Post by: baschurch-mike on April 04, 2016, 12:15:32 PM
Hi Folks,

India Pale Ale in an Ultrasonic cleaner, whatever next?

Seriously I've spent a while just cleaning up the body and smoothing it using Albion Alloys cleaning sticks, then going round places with various dental probes. Next is a wash in warm water and a "cream" cleaner as there seems to almost a light oil on some bits and then a rinse and then a while - how long? - in surgical spirit.

Does this sound right? Incidentally Sainsburys sell two soft toothbrushes for 25p and they should be amirable for the job of gently cleaning.

Mike Beard
Title: Re: Cleaning Shapeways FUD
Post by: baschurch-mike on April 08, 2016, 06:49:33 PM
OK, so I've cleaned the body now.

I read that perhaps it's a good idea to give it a coat of "Mr Surfacer" either 500 or 1000. Has anybody out there done this? What was the result?Or is it better to just go to Halfords Fine Grey Undercoat?

Opinions, experience please,

Thanks in Advance,

Mike Beard.
Title: Re: Cleaning Shapeways FUD
Post by: Snowwolflair on May 14, 2016, 07:52:52 PM
Just used BESTINE in an ultrasonic tank.  Wax stripped in 4 minutes, and snow white FUD as soon as it dries. :laugh3: :bounce:

I'm a convert, now where to get it in the UK?

 :NGaugersRule:
Title: Re: Cleaning Shapeways FUD
Post by: James320 on May 17, 2016, 08:26:07 AM
This guy uses something called Bestine which the Americans all seem to use: https://jamestrainparts.wordpress.com/2014/12/15/cleaning-up-3d-printed-models/

Hi Guys,

Yes Bestin is good however as many of you have found its a pain to find here in the UK because of its highly flammable nature.  However the main chemical that makes it work for us is Heptane which is also used in pure white spirit.  However donít just use any white spirit as some manufactures add in other chemical and I have found these to be corrosive to the FUD.  A safe bet, and one I use for most of my 3D prints, is Goo Gone.  It takes a bit longer than a Heptane product and leaves a yellow/off white colour on the surface but the overall effect is the same.  Here is a shell I am working on now that was soaked in Goo Gone.

(https://jamestrainparts.files.wordpress.com/2016/05/c-855b-chassis-15.jpg?w=873&h=533)

I tend to find that they need 24 hours to soak and another 24 hours to dry out.

-James
Title: Re: Cleaning Shapeways FUD
Post by: Bob Tidbury on February 23, 2017, 03:35:55 PM
Only Me recomends  Swarfega for cleaning and Halfords Bumper Primer for priming and of course Acrylic paint.
Bob
Title: Re: Cleaning Shapeways FUD
Post by: Snowwolflair on February 23, 2017, 03:37:58 PM
This guy uses something called Bestine which the Americans all seem to use: https://jamestrainparts.wordpress.com/2014/12/15/cleaning-up-3d-printed-models/

Hi Guys,

Yes Bestin is good however as many of you have found its a pain to find here in the UK because of its highly flammable nature.  However the main chemical that makes it work for us is Heptane which is also used in pure white spirit.  However donít just use any white spirit as some manufactures add in other chemical and I have found these to be corrosive to the FUD.  A safe bet, and one I use for most of my 3D prints, is Goo Gone.  It takes a bit longer than a Heptane product and leaves a yellow/off white colour on the surface but the overall effect is the same.  Here is a shell I am working on now that was soaked in Goo Gone.

(https://jamestrainparts.files.wordpress.com/2016/05/c-855b-chassis-15.jpg?w=873&h=533)

I tend to find that they need 24 hours to soak and another 24 hours to dry out.

-James

You can buy Heptane online in 5Ltr packs.
Title: Cleaning up FUD
Post by: Snowwolflair on March 26, 2017, 12:57:04 PM
Burnish with a fiberglass pen and Halfords filler spray paint to remove striping
Title: Re: Cleaning up FUD
Post by: Stevie DC on March 26, 2017, 02:32:00 PM
Lovely model of a lovely prototype that I was lucky enough to see in steam last summer!  :D

I wouldn't use filler primer as I find it clogs the fine detail very quickly. Personally, I'd use Halfords plastic primer (grey or red depending on the top coat) and Albion Alloys 3mm wide sanding sticks (http://www.modelsrgo.co.uk/albion-alloys-mini-sanding-sticks-15.html (http://www.modelsrgo.co.uk/albion-alloys-mini-sanding-sticks-15.html)) and some fine wet and dry to remove the stepping effect.

Make sure you leave at least twelve hours between each primer coat and rubbing down - I've found trying to rub down more quickly than this will result in the slightly soft paint peeling slightly which leaves a ridge which won't easily disappear with subsequent coats.

No interest in Albion Alloys other than as a very satisfied customer.
Title: Re: Cleaning up FUD
Post by: Snowwolflair on March 26, 2017, 03:03:35 PM
Lovely model of a lovely prototype that I was lucky enough to see in steam last summer!  :D

I wouldn't use filler primer as I find it clogs the fine detail very quickly. Personally, I'd use Halfords plastic primer (grey or red depending on the top coat) and Albion Alloys 3mm wide sanding sticks ([url]http://www.modelsrgo.co.uk/albion-alloys-mini-sanding-sticks-15.html[/url] ([url]http://www.modelsrgo.co.uk/albion-alloys-mini-sanding-sticks-15.html[/url])) and some fine wet and dry to remove the stepping effect.

Make sure you leave at least twelve hours between each primer coat and rubbing down - I've found trying to rub down more quickly than this will result in the slightly soft paint peeling slightly which leaves a ridge which won't easily disappear with subsequent coats.

No interest in Albion Alloys other than as a very satisfied customer.


Yes it can clog detail if you over spray however the fiberglass pen gets into the detail and unclogs.  The fiberglass pen also burnishes to a shined surface if you are patient.

Virtually all grades of grit based sandpaper will fur the surface and if you must sand then use the filing buffing polishing sticks used for fingernails.
Title: Re: Cleaning up FUD
Post by: queensquare on March 26, 2017, 03:11:52 PM
I'd agree with Alex, don't use the filling primer, it's far too thick. Regular, acrylic primer is fine. Also, fine wet and dry won't fur up the surface. I make up my own sanding sticks with wet and dry stuck to  offcuts of plasticard with double sided tape. You can make any shape you want to fit in and around the fine detail.

Jerry
Title: Re: Cleaning up FUD
Post by: Snowwolflair on March 26, 2017, 03:25:58 PM
I don't doubt that using wet and dry can be used in a way that wont do damage but not everyone has your skill.  I have seen a lot of FUD damaged with wet and dry.

The advantage of the fiberglass stick is the abrasion rate is much slower so if its going wrong you see it and stop rather than finding the wet and dry has destroyed the surface with the first stroke.

The fiberglass pen allows you to surface over and around surface features like rivets without wiping them out.

Each to their own, i prefer caution.
Title: Re: Cleaning up FUD
Post by: Snowwolflair on March 26, 2017, 03:28:46 PM
An old trick with wet and dry.  Rub it on hard soap first to create a slippy abrasive surface.  It reduces the cut depth and makes the sanding far more controllable.

Been sanding plastics for 50 years.  :D
Title: Re: Cleaning up FUD
Post by: Stevie DC on March 26, 2017, 04:54:54 PM
I don't doubt that using wet and dry can be used in a way that wont do damage but not everyone has your skill.  I have seen a lot of FUD damaged with wet and dry.

The advantage of the fiberglass stick is the abrasion rate is much slower so if its going wrong you see it and stop rather than finding the wet and dry has destroyed the surface with the first stroke.

The fiberglass pen allows you to surface over and around surface features like rivets without wiping them out.

Each to their own, i prefer caution.

This is interesting as I've never had great success using a fiberglass stick and would say the same for this method in destroying details such as rivets as you do for wet and dry. I nearly always use wet and dry wet as I find it gives a better cut and usually don't use anything coarser than 800 grit nowadays. As Jerry says, you can make up your own sanding sticks and it is entirely possible  to make shapes that fit around details you wish to keep.

As you said, each to their own but I would really like to hear more about your fiberglass stick technique.
Title: Re: Cleaning up FUD
Post by: Snowwolflair on March 26, 2017, 05:11:53 PM
I have done a lot of white metal war gaming figures and you cannot sand a face or uniform detail, that's where the technique came from.  The technique is rotary like metal burnishing on a smaller scale.

The problem with FUD is the layer lines, and you have to fill them not sand them off.  That what I use the filler spray for, filing back with the fiberglass to the bare FUD with lines of filler in the grooves.

Three cycles of this and you find the grooves are full and the surface is flat and no other detail is affected.  You can then use grey undercoat etc.

FUD furs like wood grain and you want to do everything to avoid roughening the surface.  It is better to cut with a sharp knife or even scrape rather than sand it you want a sympathetic surface to paint.
Title: Re: Cleaning up FUD
Post by: Stevie DC on March 26, 2017, 05:19:05 PM
Thanks Snowwolflair, I'll give that a try next time I order a FUD print.  :)

However, I've never encountered the FUD furs you describe when cutting back a FUD print. Below are a couple of pictures of my prototype N2 print, the first is simply washed/lightly scrubbed and primed (showing the stepping) while the second is of the completed model which was sanded with wet and dry (and showing my inability to apply transfers without them silvering at the time!).

(http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k481/Atso-Cad/3D%20Prints/image_zps10367a7c.jpg) (http://s1112.photobucket.com/user/Atso-Cad/media/3D%20Prints/image_zps10367a7c.jpg.html)

(http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k481/Atso-Cad/3D%20Prints/N2Complete4_zps28d58bff.jpg) (http://s1112.photobucket.com/user/Atso-Cad/media/3D%20Prints/N2Complete4_zps28d58bff.jpg.html)

Apologies to AR for taking his thread a little off topic.  :sorrysign:
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