N Gauge Forum

General Category => N Gauge Discussion => Topic started by: d-a-n on December 12, 2015, 05:02:37 PM

Title: Barely any bargains
Post by: d-a-n on December 12, 2015, 05:02:37 PM
I eagerly watch the advent calendar type promotions running on various websites to see if there's anything worth buying, I also regularly check the other box mover sites for similar. It seems to be in the last year that there has been barely anything in the way of bargains compared to when I first came into the hobby 3 or 4 years ago. Are retailers feeling the pinch of the increased costs of models too?
Title: Re: Barely any bargains
Post by: trkilliman on December 12, 2015, 06:07:42 PM
Yes, I have been thinking the same.
It could be that not so many models are being produced, less sent to retailers, so potentially less to shift at a knock-down price?

I have a strong hunch that overall people are holding onto models they have, and not upgrading quite as much as they may have previously. This may be due to less disposable income for playing trains, an awareness of how price have risen for replacements, or likely a combination of the two. In my opinion Ebay does not have the level of auction items it did a couple of years back. These days it is dominated by buy it now items largely from dealers. Again I think the lack of auction items points towards people hanging onto their stock.

So I agree there does not seem to be the level of bargains around there once was.
Title: Re: Barely any bargains
Post by: ODRAILS on December 12, 2015, 07:00:30 PM
I don't know what you two above actually want but I'm new to N gauge, attracted by the new higher level of detail and "DCC readiness" in N steam locos. I've found the latest superb DCC ready Farish 4F (ex-sets with Johnson or Fowler tenders) selling for under 60 in eBay in the last month and have now got a quartet - all superb runners.
Ian
Title: Re: Barely any bargains
Post by: NeMo on December 12, 2015, 07:02:41 PM
There may be fewer Christmas specials, but it seems like MDR has been having a sale more or less since Christmas, and there are plenty of bargains out there at places like Hattons, Cheltenham and others if you spend a bit of time rooting about.

But a bigger point I'd make is this. While prices have been going up on individual models, the train sets and packs seem to be becoming steadily better bargains. For example...

Cumbrian Mountain Express Train Pack - 130 including a 'Duchess', three blue riband Mk1s, and a Scenecraft signal box.

Cornish Riviera DCC - 150 including a DCC-fitted 'Warship', two blue riband Mk1s, a pack of track including a set of points, and a DCC controller.

These are insane value! Of course there's only a limited range of them, and some are rather niche audience packs or sets (the Landship train and the Longmoor Military Railway train both spring to mind) but there's pretty much something for everyone there.

If you're hunting around for Christmas bargains then, definitely worth considering.

Cheers, NeMo
Title: Re: Barely any bargains
Post by: MikeDunn on December 12, 2015, 07:31:56 PM
While prices have been going up on individual models, the train sets and packs seem to be becoming steadily better bargains.
Well ... that depends ...  :thumbsdown:

Certainly, there are some bargains out there; but FleaBay seems to be not one of the areas to look at unless you are after something that didn't sell well, or find an item someone doesn't really know the value of & puts a daft (to us) BIN price on that just can't be ignored.

Maybe I'm getting grumpy these days (do NOT answer that one !!!  :no: :D), or just too selective, but I'm not seeing the prices on some of the sets in the area I think the big shifters should have them; possibly based on GraFar setting the price higher than I think they should have in the first place ?

The main items I see discounted seem to be (as mentioned) poor sellers & therefore there's lots of them, or stuff I think of as "tat" (for reasons good or bad).  I live in hope for stuff I like coming available at a level I'm happy to pay, but they do seem few & far between ...  :confused1:

After saying all that ... I did get a nice bargain in OO the other week, that John @ YouChoos has sold me more than I expected to put into :smiley-laughing:  Fingers crossed SWMBO heads out for a day trip with a friend when I'm on holiday to fit it all !!!  Else she'll get a DIY kit for Christmas  ::)
Title: Re: Barely any bargains
Post by: sparky on December 12, 2015, 08:29:43 PM
Be careful what you wish for...we all like a bargain but unless bachmann etc..get a decent return on their investment we will have no models at all....maybe its an indication that the manufacturers are getting the batch sizes right more often than not?
Title: Re: Barely any bargains
Post by: d-a-n on December 12, 2015, 10:06:34 PM
Think you could be onto something there Sparky - the decent in demand stuff doesn't tend to stick around long enough while the tat/oddball livery bits kick around for years in the bargain bin. The MDR sale items never really inspire and the sets, while good value for money, rarely offer more than one thing I actually want - they are bit like the meal for 2 you get at a take away: cheaper than the sum of their parts, a few main dishes that probably aren't the one you actually want along with some side dishes that, while nice to have, probably wouldn't be bought otherwise! Even though it didn't fit with my other stuff, I bought the Duchess set as I'd wanted the loco for a while and the carriages would come in useful, but I don't think I would've bought any of those specific type of carriages on their own had they not come in the set.
Title: Re: Barely any bargains
Post by: Railwaygun on December 12, 2015, 10:48:30 PM
Trains advertised on this forum are good value - especially if you pay via PayPal as a "friend" - and no Ebay charges!!
Title: Re: Barely any bargains
Post by: NeMo on December 13, 2015, 09:08:55 AM
Certainly, there are some bargains out there; but FleaBay seems to be not one of the areas to look at unless you are after something that didn't sell well, or find an item someone doesn't really know the value of & puts a daft (to us) BIN price on that just can't be ignored.
I simply fail to understand this sort of criticism of eBay. You make your maximum bid the highest price you think the item is worth to you. If you win, you win because you got a bargain. If the item sells for more than that, you lose the item, but you also know the item was sold for more than you think it's worth. Big deal. Either way you get a sensible, rational result.

If you consistently lose auctions, that's probably because your maximum price for something is less than "the market" supposes, i.e., other people have consistently higher maximum prices, so they win. You might not like that, but that's just the way it goes.

Maybe I'm getting grumpy these days (do NOT answer that one !!!  :no: :D), or just too selective, but I'm not seeing the prices on some of the sets in the area I think the big shifters should have them; possibly based on GraFar setting the price higher than I think they should have in the first place ?
I think you are being a bit selective, and I stand by my point that even if individual locos and carriages are getting expensive, buying them in train packs is very good value.

Let's take the Cumbrian Mountain Express train pack. Hattons price is a few pence under 132. Bought individually, a BR green 'Duchess' would be 127.46, the Mk1 coaches are 24.61 a piece, and the Blue Anchor signal box is 25.46. Grand total, 226.75. So while you're not getting exactly the same items, you're still getting a saving of about 100 by buying the train pack. That's insanely good value.

Now look at the Cornish Riviera pack, at 157.21. Individually, DCC controller 76.46, 15.26 for the DCC chip, 100.26 for the 'Warship', 24.61 for each of the Mk1s, and let's say 30 for the track. 271.20 for the lot. Again, you're saving well over 100 there.

I'm not sure how much more of a discount you want! Even allowing a few quid above or below Hattons depending on your retailer of choice, these are still a steal. For sure there's not a massive range of train packs, but if simply want to treat yourself, something like the Landship pack for about 80 would make a lovely Rule #1 purchase because it's just so quirky.

The main items I see discounted seem to be (as mentioned) poor sellers & therefore there's lots of them, or stuff I think of as "tat" (for reasons good or bad).  I live in hope for stuff I like coming available at a level I'm happy to pay, but they do seem few & far between ...  :confused1:

The Hattons bargain section changes regularly and always seems to have something that'd find a place on my railway. Worth checking regularly. Other retailers have similar selections, of course. But my point is that if you're limited to spending, say, 8 a wagon, right now you could get some nice Presflo wagons, PCA tanks or 12ton box vans without any trouble.

Cheers, NeMo
Title: Re: Barely any bargains
Post by: Jonas on December 13, 2015, 10:04:52 AM
I think the recent price rises have meant people are more selective of what they buy now, so are less likely to be flogging it on ebay etc. Also small runs mean both manufacturers and model shops aren't flooded with models they can't shift and have to discount; a few years back I would say the pace of releases was too high for many of us.

When the Farish 25/1 came out I couldn't afford it, so I had to be happy improving what I have already! Now the unweathered blue one is nowhere to be seen but I suspect that's what Farish would hope for! I also think it's much more likely we'll see a new tooled 25/3 now - if Hattons (or whoever) were banging out new spec locos for 50 quid still why would Farish invest in the tooling?

The N gauge market is very small, and at the end of the day it's up to the modeller to make a choice on wha the they want and how much they'd pay for it. There are bargains on the second hand market if you are patient, but I find it odd people expect shops and manufacturers to offer items that aren't surplus at bargain prices.
Title: Re: Barely any bargains
Post by: d-a-n on December 13, 2015, 12:07:58 PM
I find it odd people expect shops and manufacturers to offer items that aren't surplus at bargain prices.

I don't think anyone expects that to happen - this thread is exploring the reasons why it's not happening so much nowadays compared to a few years ago...
Title: Re: Barely any bargains
Post by: Byegad on December 13, 2015, 12:38:31 PM
I'm with NeMo on eBay. You bid to your limit and wait to see if you get it. The idea of 'just-gotta-have-it' bidding does not compute in my Yorkshire mind.

I suspect the lack of used items coming up may have something to do with the much improved running and longevity of N gauge stock and locomotives. Back in 1974, when I started in N gauge, the running quality of everything was so variable! I had an Ivatt Mogul the would barely pull a single coach, and Grafar J72 that only picked up on 4 wheels so stalled on every point, unless you charged along and let momentum slide it over the dead spot! Permanently coupling and wiring it to a wagon with pick ups fitted  If eBay had existed I'd have sold half my stock by 1976, making up a train in those days was more about what would run together than what was correct.
Title: Re: Barely any bargains
Post by: MikeDunn on December 13, 2015, 03:51:43 PM
I simply fail to understand this sort of criticism of eBay.
It's quite simple, as shown in the "eBay Madness" thread a lot - there are various people who put absolutely stupid prices on items, and there are other people willing to get into a bidding frenzy on something still available new at lower prices.

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Either way you get a sensible, rational result.
Not in the instances I refer to, unless you consider stupid starting prices or ridiculous finish prices a "sensible, rational result".  And if you re-read my post, I was not singling out eBay, merely using it as an example.

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If you consistently lose auctions

And where did I say anything along these lines ? 

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I think you are being a bit selective
Perhaps - I certainly don't go ga-ga over every set; in fact there is only one, maybe two, of the current ranges that has some appeal - albeit at a price I consider too expensive.  But that's my personal prerogative, yes ?

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Let's take the Cumbrian Mountain Express train pack [...]  That's insanely good value.
Only if this is something you're interested in.

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Now look at the Cornish Riviera pack, at 157.21 [...] Again, you're saving well over 100 there.
Personally - I'm saving 157.21 ...  This also lacks any appeal.

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The Hattons bargain section changes regularly and always seems to have something that'd find a place on my railway. Worth checking regularly.
And as I have said a number of times before - I don't use these, and to be honest neither I nor SWMBO these days use RoS either.  I find I get better prices on what I am interested in from my local shop - why pay a warehouse a long way away when I can support local, and both see & test what I want to ensure I don't get a duff one ?

And you seem to have ignored the part where I said
Certainly, there are some bargains out there

Remember - the OP was on about the various model rail sites not offering bargains anymore, and did not mention eBay ... this was raised by someone else ...
Title: Re: Barely any bargains
Post by: Jonas on December 13, 2015, 04:10:10 PM
I find it odd people expect shops and manufacturers to offer items that aren't surplus at bargain prices.

I don't think anyone expects that to happen...

Sorry I misunderstood the point slightly. I've heard plenty of moaning on forums and FB groups the shops are just discounting the stock they have too much of...well of course they are!  ;D

I stand by the point the reduction on releases plays a part; less models released means less left over at the end of the year to flog cheaply, which is good for shops and manufacturers, if not us!
Title: Re: Barely any bargains
Post by: MikeDunn on December 13, 2015, 04:51:47 PM
Well ... that brings us back to the point of the costs & the mfrs maximising their profits ...

If they make less & it's a wild seller - just think how much more they could have made  ::), not to mention retailers being less likely to discount.  With the flip side being a total flop (Hornby's London Olympics 2012 range, anyone ?  :P )

Speaking personally ... I had a need for a specific engine in DCC form, and couldn't find a new example anywhere ... while I could have converted a DC version, there was the issue of finding one new enough to risk  ::)  As it happened, I eventually discovered my local shop had some sets from a few years back containing this specific engine in DCC, and was able to make a deal for it; despite the set being several years old, them having at least 6 sets left, and the set not being in demand any more, there was no discount offered from their price to take the entire set off their hands (not that I was particularly interested in anything but the engine, but they could have asked - I might have been amenable !).  So they still have at least 5 sets to get shot of plus a controller, track, carriages etc from the one they broke up.
Title: Re: Barely any bargains
Post by: paulprice on December 13, 2015, 05:19:25 PM
Well I think I have found  bargain today, just have to see what its like when it is delivered, there are bargains out there......
Title: Re: Barely any bargains
Post by: NeMo on December 13, 2015, 05:20:27 PM
Look Mike,

I think you want your cake AND to eat it too.

Hattons and other box shifters use sales and bargains to shift stuff that either isn't selling or will soon be replaced by updated models. Either way, you take advantage of them if they're things you're into (the "like it" option). Otherwise you have to pay full whack for the stuff that isn't on sale (the "lump it" option). You simply cannot expect stores to price expensive goods down to the price you think they should be based on your personal set of beliefs about economics. Not going to happen.

You say you don't like using Hattons, that's fine, but it is one of the stores that has a consistently varied selection of bargains. If your retailer of choice doesn't do regular sales and discounts, then that's the way it is. Again, your choice.

So far as eBay goes, the eBay madness thread has some comedy value for sure, where people advertise stuff at prices that aren't anywhere close to reality. But people whingeing about something selling for X more than they think they're worth is silly. Something is worth what someone will pay for it. If someone has treasured memories of a Hornby 'Smokey Joe' and wants to pay 50 for the same vintage loco as they owned back in 1985, then that's their prerogative. To them, it's worth it. To you, perhaps not.

Just because you feel the prices on eBay aren't what you're prepared to pay for them, doesn't mean the system is broken. I use eBay all the time (not just for trains) and find it a very useful and safe place to shop.

Look, if you want to pay no more than 70 for a brand new steam loco, then by all means hold out for a bargain or otherwise check out the Union Mills range. But so far as Farish and Dapol are concerned, those days are gone. The economics aren't there. Labour is more expensive in China (which is a good thing, because it means the Chinese workers are getting paid more and having a higher standard of living) and that in turn has to be passed on to the purchaser in England.

If you honestly think the manufacturers are carving out huge profits from you, then maybe you need to have a chat with those involved in the Pendolino project to name just one. Model trains are expensive and risky, and both manufacturer and retailer need to make a profit, and at the moment, those profit margins aren't nearly as big as you think.

Cheers, NeMo
Title: Re: Barely any bargains
Post by: MikeDunn on December 13, 2015, 10:55:12 PM
I think you want your cake AND to eat it too.
And I think you're over-reacting  ::)  You still seem not to have seen where I have stated that some bargains are out there, but instead put words into my mouth I have not said, or written ...

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You simply cannot expect stores to price expensive goods down to the price you think they should be based on your personal set of beliefs about economics.
Never said that they should ... ::)

Quote
If your retailer of choice doesn't do regular sales and discounts, then that's the way it is.
Never said that either; and as it happens, my local store matches Hattons & RoS prices, if not beats them on a regular basis.  Which is something I have said before ...  And let's be honest : the price level the big players set (and after having a tour a while back of my local shop's warehousing & seeing the vast stock they have, I can happily include them in this clique) is the de facto price point regardless of what GraFar or any other company may wish to set ...

Quote
Just because you feel the prices on eBay aren't what you're prepared to pay for them, doesn't mean the system is broken.
And I never claimed it was ... I merely pointed out some of the more ridiculous aspects.

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But people whingeing about something selling for X more than they think they're worth is silly
What I said was :
Quote from: Mike
there are other people willing to get into a bidding frenzy on something still available new at lower prices

Quote
if you want to pay no more than 70 for a brand new steam loco
You'll be hard-pressed to see any posts where I say this too ... ::)

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The economics aren't there. Labour is more expensive in China
Strangely, I do understand the economics, so no need to give a lesson I don't require.

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If you honestly think the manufacturers are carving out huge profits from you
You really need to learn to differentiate between what I actually said & what you think I said ... yup, you're on about something else I never said.  If all you're going to do is make an argument based on putting words in my mouth, there's no point you & I continuing this debate about there being a dearth of bargains compared with a couple of years back - the actual topic from the OP.

Any chance of getting back to it ?
Title: Re: Barely any bargains
Post by: kiwi1941 on December 13, 2015, 11:40:48 PM
my local store matches Hattons & RoS prices, if not beats them on a regular basis.

Perhaps you could reveal where your local model shop is! Brian
Title: Re: Barely any bargains
Post by: MalcolmInN on December 14, 2015, 12:03:32 AM
Let's take the Cumbrian Mountain Express train pack. Hattons price is a few pence under 132. Bought individually, a BR green 'Duchess' would be 127.46, the Mk1 coaches are 24.61 a piece, and the Blue Anchor signal box is 25.46. Grand total, 226.75. So while you're not getting exactly the same items, you're still getting a saving of about 100 by buying the train pack. That's insanely good value.
Yes, I have been contemplating that one for some time now, since NPN brought it to my notice, trouble is I would rather have maroon coaches !

PS, First it is Cumberland, then it's Cumbria, no telling what local gov. reorg indignity will be next, now it seems the denizens of West Somerset have staged a coup and are claiming Ais Gil signal box for their own ? !! (sorry NeMo couldnt resist :) )

my local store matches Hattons & RoS prices, if not beats them on a regular basis.

Perhaps you could reveal where your local model shop is! Brian
Somewhere near Hereford, SW-ish UK I think he is.
Title: Re: Barely any bargains
Post by: JasonBz on December 14, 2015, 12:17:52 AM
my local store matches Hattons & RoS prices, if not beats them on a regular basis.

Perhaps you could reveal where your local model shop is! Brian

Hereford Model Centre I would guess :)
Title: Re: Barely any bargains
Post by: MikeDunn on December 14, 2015, 08:56:18 AM
Perhaps you could reveal where your local model shop is! Brian
As I have said numerous times in the past - Hereford Models.
Title: Re: Barely any bargains
Post by: MikeDunn on December 14, 2015, 08:57:42 AM
Somewhere near Hereford, SW-ish UK I think he is.
SW-ish  ???  ::)  West side of the West Midlands, you mean ! :D
Title: Re: Barely any bargains
Post by: MikeDunn on December 14, 2015, 08:59:25 AM
Hereford Model Centre I would guess :)
Someone paid attention  :D  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Barely any bargains
Post by: Agrippa on December 14, 2015, 09:03:14 AM
Is this a private punch up or can anyone join in ...... :D
Title: Re: Barely any bargains
Post by: Karhedron on December 14, 2015, 09:11:35 AM
Dapol and Farish have claimed the British N gaugers are extremely price sensitive.

Looks like they were right.  :whiteflag:
Title: Re: Barely any bargains
Post by: kiwi1941 on December 14, 2015, 09:23:21 AM
As I have said numerous times in the past - Hereford Models.

Sorry I don't remember reading any of your posts before. Brian
Title: Re: Barely any bargains
Post by: MalcolmInN on December 14, 2015, 09:50:23 AM
SW-ish  ???  ::)  West side of the West Midlands, you mean ! :D
:D
I thought that might amuse you  :laugh:

note that I said -ish and UK, so it depends on if someone is looking down on us from Edinburgh, you see , , ,

British N gaugers are extremely   price    sensitive.
:laughabovepost:
ducks&runs  :whiteflag:
Title: Re: Barely any bargains
Post by: paulprice on December 14, 2015, 09:52:26 AM
What of you are standing on your head when you look at a map?
Title: Re: Barely any bargains
Post by: Richey1977 on December 14, 2015, 01:40:26 PM
The Ian Allen shop in Waterloo knocked the price of their Farish and Bachmann train sets down this month.  I'd happily have bought all them if I had more money, but I got the Steel Worker set for 80.  I wouldn't have got the 08 shunter and three tippler wagons for that, nevermind a spare power controller, which might come in handy for something...
Title: Re: Barely any bargains
Post by: DELETED on December 14, 2015, 09:04:42 PM
The way I see it these days is there's a 50-50 split between those of us who've steadily been watching prices climb and there's the second half quite willing to pay the increased costs and obviously have more disposable income.  The argument is coming up all the time but it's most definitely going one way these days but that's a different argument.

I think "bargains" come and go and I think there's a 6 month period between plenty and none.  But I really do think prices have climbed progressively higher the past 2 years, to the point I'm glad I bought my loco stock between 3-5 years ago because I'm just not paying todays prices a) for ultra fine detail which in my experience falls off and b) or for second hand items now being punted at 85% of the price for new.  I really like some of Dapols Diesels but have yet to buy any because of completely sub-standard factory paint jobs.

I don't order from Hattons now, to be fair they have allot of stock and do put at decent prices occasionally but their delivery lets them down and I'm finding local shops can pretty much match the price.  I think Rails of Sheffields' second hand prices have risen steadily also.  I do use EBay but only for buy it now at the right price.  I do firmly believe "most" things have a value and what someone else is willing to pay is different to that.  When I sell I always check prices first, list as buy it now and if I just want to sell it I always make sure it's priced a bit better than what I can find.

I actually made the Falkirk MRC show this year for the first time in about 30 years(!) and I went mainly for a mooch round the stalls.  Whilst I was not expecting bargains I was absolutely shocked when I saw a couple of current Farish items from a trader at 50% more than I've seen recently in the local shops!  The second hand wagons and coaches on the stalls were generally tat at almost new prices.  I listened to one stall holder talking to a passer by for 15 mins about struggling to cover costs (while I was standing patiently waiting to be served) and I did pick up 3 used Peco Railfreight vans -but they were the same price as new.  Have to admit I took pity and didn't haggle, I'd have only spend the difference in tram fares / petrol going to the shops.

Quick plug for my soon to be ex-local "Sports and Model" shop in Dingwall, Ross-Shire as they always have good prices and often have a small stock at internet prices.  Excellent range of modelling materials also.  I rarely get to Harburn Hobbies in Edinburgh but happened on their sale day a fortnight ago.  Got a new Reg Railways DMU for something like 60 and a Lafarge JPA for 16, everything Farish and Peco was discounted so also got 3 Peco TTA kits for 4 each also.  So I saved a fair bit, including the 3 return tram fare to Edinburgh park and ride.

...So there are some bargains out there, but still have to be prepared for steady price increases I guess.  You just have to be patient.
Title: Re: Barely any bargains
Post by: NeMo on December 14, 2015, 09:13:57 PM
Let's take the Cumbrian Mountain Express train pack. Hattons price is a few pence under 132. Bought individually, a BR green 'Duchess' would be 127.46, the Mk1 coaches are 24.61 a piece, and the Blue Anchor signal box is 25.46. Grand total, 226.75. So while you're not getting exactly the same items, you're still getting a saving of about 100 by buying the train pack. That's insanely good value.
Yes, I have been contemplating that one for some time now, since NPN brought it to my notice, trouble is I would rather have maroon coaches !
PS, First it is Cumberland, then it's Cumbria, no telling what local gov. reorg indignity will be next, now it seems the denizens of West Somerset have staged a coup and are claiming Ais Gil signal box for their own ? !! (sorry NeMo couldnt resist :) )

Ah, I wasn't saying the the Blue Anchor signalbox was in the pack, any more than the 'Duchess' on the inside is in BR green. Merely quoting the price of roughly equivalent models.

The Ais Gill signalbox is rather nice, but as you suggest, not really useful anywhere else than a Cumbrian setting.

Cheers, NeMo
Title: Re: Barely any bargains
Post by: MalcolmInN on December 14, 2015, 10:45:40 PM
Merely quoting the price of roughly equivalent models.
Oh dear yes, I see now. Sorry, I totally mis-read your post  :dunce:  :admiration:
Title: Re: Barely any bargains
Post by: trkilliman on December 14, 2015, 11:23:24 PM
This thread has certainly brought out lots of interesting views and opinions. If you have come into the hobby quite recently then you will probably be unaware how prices have risen over the last couple of years. The reasons given include a sizeable increase in pay for workers in the Chinese factories, and employment benefits for them. It is said that the Chinese authorities have said these things are to be implemented. Now I would not knock the prosperity and conditions for the workers being enhanced, but I do wonder what percentage of price increases is down to the above and increased raw materials costs?
Newly released carriages hovering around the 30 mark at rrp does seem steep if you have been into N for some years. Granted the detail is great, but personally I would now purchase a couple as opposed to a good rake, and over time. I do not have an endless amount to spend on model railways!

I am glad that I have amassed so much prior to the price rises of the last couple of years, as I could get by nicely with what I already have. But of course I drool over some of the new items like anyone else.

I do think that each time the prices rise more people will start to look closely at whether to purchase items, where they may have done so previously without a second thought. It is a catch 22 situation where a drop in sales could lead to a drop in new models/investment...only time will tell. A very interesting thread though where I am enjoying reading the quite varied views of others.
Title: Re: Barely any bargains
Post by: JasonBz on December 14, 2015, 11:28:20 PM
It seems that the "big players" in UK outline model railways had ended up in a place where the only option was to raise prices, if they wished to continue in this line of business.

IMO the perception that things have gotten expensive all of a sudden is a bit wrong-headed- it is more a case that products were too cheap for the last few years if anything.
Title: Re: Barely any bargains
Post by: Les1952 on December 15, 2015, 09:01:22 AM
Just one thought.

A thread here bemoans the lack of bargains to be had.

A thread elsewhere hammers Dapol for selling off cheaply at shows the stuff dealers haven't bought, thus giving modellers a chance to get some stuff at bargain prices.

Consistent lot, aren't we......
Les
Title: Re: Barely any bargains
Post by: MikeDunn on December 15, 2015, 09:22:19 AM
A thread elsewhere hammers Dapol for selling off cheaply at shows the stuff dealers haven't bought, thus giving modellers a chance to get some stuff at bargain prices.
Actually, that thread points out that the Monthly Bargains from Dapol have been the same for many a month now !

Hardly a Monthly Bargain, more like an All-Year Sale of the same items !  :thumbsdown:  Now, if they alternated these particular non-sellers every couple of months, so that each month had a different set available, I doubt we'd twig  ::)
Title: Re: Barely any bargains
Post by: Newportnobby on December 15, 2015, 10:12:12 AM
The way I see it these days is there's a 50-50 split between those of us who've steadily been watching prices climb and there's the second half quite willing to pay the increased costs and obviously have more disposable income.  The argument is coming up all the time but it's most definitely going one way these days but that's a different argument.


There is also the third half ( ???) like me who do have some disposable income but not a lot so whereas I'd spend quite a lot on models that amount has now been at least halved due to the high prices now being charged. My pre orders that contained 'would be nice to have' and 'must have' have now been curtailed to purely 'must have' items, and many of those are purely because if I miss out on them chances are there will not be a second run. So far, Farish/Dapol have lost some 700 worth of my business due to this re-structuring but I doubt it means much to them unless others around the country are doing the same.
Title: Re: Barely any bargains
Post by: MikeDunn on December 15, 2015, 10:22:42 AM
I suspect, Mick, a lot of us look at the current pricing & then have to have a very hard think about whether we really want it or not ... so I agree that you can't say it's a 50/50 split.  Maybe a 25/50/25 split between the "watchers", the "hard thinkers" & the "loadsamoney" brigade ?  Just a guess.

I can't put a cost against the items I've not gone with (as I don't do pre-orders except where, as you say, it's a "must-have" with the risk of missing out otherwise), but like you it's likely in the middle / high hundreds ...
Title: Re: Barely any bargains
Post by: Ensign Elliott on December 15, 2015, 10:31:53 AM

There is also the third half ( ???) like me who do have some disposable income but not a lot so whereas I'd spend quite a lot on models that amount has now been at least halved due to the high prices now being charged. My pre orders that contained 'would be nice to have' and 'must have' have now been curtailed to purely 'must have' items, and many of those are purely because if I miss out on them chances are there will not be a second run. So far, Farish/Dapol have lost some 700 worth of my business due to this re-structuring but I doubt it means much to them unless others around the country are doing the same.

Agreed. This about sums me up. I used to be able to buy 5 or 6 locos at Warley each year - with the same amount of money, this has now dropped about 3, and those are ones I have to really think about.

Overall, as the quality has increased over the past few years, I'm willing to pay more for better detailed models, however as a DC user, I dislike having to pay extra for "DCC ready" models which is something I'm not going to use.
Title: Re: Barely any bargains
Post by: Mr Sprue on December 15, 2015, 10:47:35 AM
Going along with what trkilliman and JasonBz have said about increased manufacturing costs there are still bargains out there to be had especially on ebay,  but no one has really taken into account that whats being sold today most is probably good value even if prices do seem to be a little higher.

In a year or two's time I wonder if people will bemoan they missed the opportunity to purchase something that appeared to be too expensive, given that the value of the second hand N market will no doubt rise along with the increasing prices of new models. 

As for Dapol undercutting dealers at shows who purchase from them is appalling business ethics, unlike Bachmann who will only sell items at the RRP, but that's another subject.
Title: Re: Barely any bargains
Post by: MalcolmInN on December 15, 2015, 10:55:08 AM
It seems we are now discussing the usual price of an item and wondering if it is reasonable / affordable.
Whereas a bargain price is relative to the above.

But it is all relative !
If one is used to paying say 50 for a loco and then they become 150 it is a bit of a problem, but when your kids grow up and start buying their own toys then 150 for a loco will seem incredibly cheap.

I remember a time when two second hand Hornby Dublo locos was all I would get, one for my birthday and one for Xmas. I would have to wait a year for any more cos father was skint :( cue violins !

So it is all down to disposable income and how much one wishes to devote to one's plaything :)
No good moaning about it, them's the prices we just gotta get used to them or take up knitting  ;D

Ps Have you seen the price of wool / yarn recently. Wow!

Title: Re: Barely any bargains
Post by: Newportnobby on December 15, 2015, 11:21:59 AM

But it is all relative !
If one is used to paying say 50 for a loco and then they become 150 it is a bit of a problem, but when your kids grow up and start buying their own toys then 150 for a loco will seem incredibly cheap.



That depends on when your children become 'grow up' and buy their own toys, Malcolm.
We still have 2 or 3 more years of the annual 20% price hike in Chinese wages so within that small time scale the price of the larger locos will be over 200 - especially as Farish seem to be applying the 20% regardless of how small the labour costs may be as a proportion of their overall cost.
Of course, retailers who have old stock have ramped up their prices accordingly, just as any supermarket probably buys in fags and booze before Budget time in the hope they can make a killing and, if anyone had any sense, they'd have purchased a load of stamps from the Post Office before their prices rocketed.
Second hand model prices have just followed suit.
Title: Re: Barely any bargains
Post by: Jerry Howlett on December 15, 2015, 11:24:37 AM

That depends on when your children become 'grow up' and buy their own toys, Malcolm.
We still have 2 or 3 more years of the annual 20% price hike in Chinese wages so within that small time scale the price of the larger locos will be over 200 - especially as Farish seem to be applying the 20% regardless of how small the labour costs may be as a proportion of their overall cost.
Of course, retailers who have old stock have ramped up their prices accordingly, just as any supermarket probably buys in fags and booze before Budget time in the hope they can make a killing and, if anyone had any sense, they'd have purchased a load of stamps from the Post Office before their prices rocketed.
Second hand model prices have just followed suit.

Nobby ! That was so bleak the skies over Italy have just darkened.....  however true!
 
Title: Re: Barely any bargains
Post by: MalcolmInN on December 15, 2015, 11:41:53 AM
Nobby ! That was so bleak the skies over Italy have just darkened
:laughabovepost:

The last time we did this I commented that the 20% worker's rise was a Red (see what I did there :) ) herring and more than offset by the dramatic fall ( twice) in the value/exchange rate of the Yuan.
In the future they may not be able to drop it quite so much so rapidly now that it is being tied in to the Dollar-Stirling etc.

But Einstein he still say "it is all relative"
Title: Re: Barely any bargains
Post by: Mr Sprue on December 15, 2015, 12:01:42 PM
No doubt I guess there will be a few dedicated devious bargain hunters who will no doubt cash in on the Chinese 20% increase, by buying now to sell later at a handsome profit!  ::)
Title: Re: Barely any bargains
Post by: MalcolmInN on December 15, 2015, 12:12:39 PM
Is there a list anywhere of Farish models with their numbers and the dates they were introduced ? So that we can see when the 15% rule will variously expire and thus when we can expect more " bargains" ( I use bunny ears as a retrospective to my general relativity theory )

There would be no point in buying a model now if the rule on it expired in a few weeks.

Phew, I think I wriggled my way back on topic ?  :D
Title: Re: Barely any bargains
Post by: Firefox on December 15, 2015, 12:15:48 PM
Have just got a Farish class 37, green livery, on ebay for 60. I think they were 100+ new only two years ago. Fingers crossed on this one!

Still plenty to be had on ebay if you don't mind searching and looking around.

You do take pot luck on the locos. What is someone else's definition of a "good runner" is actually a kangaroo with a split gear. Had that problem last week, so have to be prepared to return or repair.
Title: Re: Barely any bargains
Post by: MikeDunn on December 15, 2015, 12:26:17 PM
Is there a list anywhere of Farish models with their numbers and the dates they were introduced ? So that we can see when the 15% rule will variously expire and thus when we can expect more " bargains"
Well ... I'm unsure whether this applies any more ...  There is a specific pack "I likes the looks of", except I think it's too expensive for what you get (a set is cheaper - this pack has no track, controller, etc, so you'd think it would be the other way around, price-wise :hmmm:).  The de facto price has, for months, been at around the 15% discount mark, but there's been no shift further down - anywhere :hmmm:

Are we at the end of the further reduction after the BachFar "max 15% for xx days" restriction  ???
Title: Re: Barely any bargains
Post by: Ensign Elliott on December 15, 2015, 12:57:04 PM
I've noticed that Hattons have no bargain packs in N this year. Last year, they had a whole Christmas section on their website with some very good deals on N and 00 packs - GF vans especially. This year its just the usual 00 packs which have been there all year.
Title: Re: Barely any bargains
Post by: red_death on December 15, 2015, 01:31:34 PM
Is there a list anywhere of Farish models with their numbers and the dates they were introduced ? So that we can see when the 15% rule will variously expire and thus when we can expect more " bargains" ( I use bunny ears as a retrospective to my general relativity theory )

I fear that a knock-on effect of the 15% rule is that products are staying at RRP minus 15% for much longer than previously as there isn't as much competition amongst retailers.

Cheers, Mike
Title: Re: Barely any bargains
Post by: MalcolmInN on December 15, 2015, 01:52:42 PM
been at around the 15% discount mark, but there's been no shift further down - anywhere
"around" being the operative word :) ! cos Ive seen two packs at 16%, now is that a bargain or is it a bargain, lol!
Some locos at 20 21 and 22 %, still not dramatic but "every penny" ??

Perhaps we will have to wait till after Xmas ?
Is there a list anywhere of Farish models with their numbers and the dates they were introduced ?
Title: Re: Barely any bargains
Post by: Newportnobby on December 15, 2015, 01:57:48 PM

That depends on when your children become 'grow up' and buy their own toys, Malcolm.
We still have 2 or 3 more years of the annual 20% price hike in Chinese wages so within that small time scale the price of the larger locos will be over 200 - especially as Farish seem to be applying the 20% regardless of how small the labour costs may be as a proportion of their overall cost.
Of course, retailers who have old stock have ramped up their prices accordingly, just as any supermarket probably buys in fags and booze before Budget time in the hope they can make a killing and, if anyone had any sense, they'd have purchased a load of stamps from the Post Office before their prices rocketed.
Second hand model prices have just followed suit.

Nobby ! That was so bleak the skies over Italy have just darkened.....  however true!

Just wait until the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse become visible, Jerry, and then run for the hills.
Oh, I forgot, you're already in the hills. Good forward planning :D
Title: Re: Barely any bargains
Post by: MalcolmInN on December 15, 2015, 02:15:31 PM
Nobby ! That was so bleak the skies over Italy have just darkened.....  however true!
Just wait until the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse become visible,
Nah, they wouldnt show up here, no profit in it ! tight load of  :censored: ducks **

ducks&runs

*oh PS, my problem is that after a lifetime of living frugally we are quite comfortable, but I cannot bring myself to spending very easy, habits of a lifetime, * it takes a lot of pushing by you know who to make me go and buy some toys. She says we cant take it with us, but, but ,,


Title: Re: Barely any bargains
Post by: Rabbitaway on December 15, 2015, 10:31:18 PM
Mike, NeMo

I assume pistols at dawn settled the argument

Or was it handbags with a copy of Hatton's latest special offers strategically placed inside for added weight ?????


 :D
Title: Re: Barely any bargains
Post by: Les1952 on December 15, 2015, 10:48:49 PM
Nobody seems to have spotted on the Hornby website-

an N-gauge starter set including controller and track with siding, 0-6-0 diesel and wagons for 49.99.

OK, it is German outline but.......

A good way of getting a starter set for a young nephew/niece/grandchild?

Les
Title: Re: Barely any bargains
Post by: Railwaygun on December 15, 2015, 11:13:38 PM
It's an Arnold starter set

http://www.hornby.com/uk-en/shop/all-sets/analogue-train-sets/arnold-goods-train-european-n-scale-1-160.html (http://www.hornby.com/uk-en/shop/all-sets/analogue-train-sets/arnold-goods-train-european-n-scale-1-160.html)
Title: Re: Barely any bargains
Post by: MalcolmInN on December 15, 2015, 11:22:52 PM
I assume pistols at dawn settled the argument

Shhhhhh !

" handbags with a copy of Hatton's latest special "

See how much MaggieT's handbag went for at auction !! ? Silly ! Would have kept Farish Dapol and DJM in business for a while :)
QSY Angry thread >>
Title: Re: Barely any bargains
Post by: ScottyStitch on December 16, 2015, 08:42:34 AM
On Facebook, there are a couple of N Gauge buy and sell pages where some good second hand deals can be found. I recently picked up 6 x Farish Blue Circle 20 Ton Presflos (all unused and boxed) for 33 posted. Hattons would have been 52 posted.

I also responded to an add in Railway Modeler last month and managed to pick up 6 x New Tool, Dapol Grampus Wagons (5 black, 1 Indian Red) (all unused and boxed) for 33 posted. Hattons would have been 59 posted.

I didn't have to haggle on either of these, the price I paid is what was advertised.

Both of these examples are obviously for rolling stock, but locomotives come up just as often, if not more often. It's worth looking, if you have a facebook account.

So, I guess, if you're patient and have the time to wait for things to come up, there are some good prices out there.
Title: Re: Barely any bargains
Post by: railsquid on December 16, 2015, 02:06:08 PM
Nobody seems to have spotted on the Hornby website-

an N-gauge starter set including controller and track with siding, 0-6-0 diesel and wagons for 49.99.

OK, it is German outline but.......

A good way of getting a starter set for a young nephew/niece/grandchild?
Like you say, a good starter set, but given that the loco seems to be a relatively crude and unprotoypical "generic shunter" I'd say it's just cheap, rather than a bargain.

For the anecdotal record I did find a new Farish 08 (the outside frame version) for 55 quid new in a brick-and-mortar retailer last week, which I'm still feeling insufferably quite smug about  8) ).
Title: Re: Barely any bargains
Post by: paulprice on December 16, 2015, 04:43:41 PM
Nobody seems to have spotted on the Hornby website-

an N-gauge starter set including controller and track with siding, 0-6-0 diesel and wagons for 49.99.

OK, it is German outline but.......

A good way of getting a starter set for a young nephew/niece/grandchild?
Like you say, a good starter set, but given that the loco seems to be a relatively crude and unprotoypical "generic shunter" I'd say it's just cheap, rather than a bargain.

For the anecdotal record I did find a new Farish 08 (the outside frame version) for 55 quid new in a brick-and-mortar retailer last week, which I'm still feeling insufferably quite smug about  8) ).

You lucky collector you  :D
Title: Re: Barely any bargains
Post by: Les1952 on December 16, 2015, 11:39:30 PM
A young child getting a starter set doesn't care if the loco is crude.  Getting ANY N-gauge set for the sort of price you can pick up an OO-gauge starter set must be a bonus.  Or don't we want new young entrants in N?

List price for the set has been quoted as 79.99 and 109.99.  I don't care which of these is correct.

49.99 is a bargain.

Les
Title: Re: Barely any bargains
Post by: railsquid on December 17, 2015, 12:00:36 AM
Ah OK, I didn't see the original price. I agree that it would make a good starter set so is a bargain from that point of view (though maybe not something most people here would be interested in for their own needs  at that price).
Title: Re: Barely any bargains
Post by: Firefox on December 17, 2015, 12:11:37 AM
My Class 37, Green Livery, late crest with headcodes arrived today.

What a superb loco. Perfect box, perfect condition, runs really slow and pulls anything.

62 from Ebay, I think it has hardly been run.

Bargains still out there!
Title: Re: Barely any bargains
Post by: paulprice on December 17, 2015, 07:28:42 AM
Added another Duchess to my collection last night, 40 dabs from FleaBay, it may be the older model, but its a brilliant runner, and blemish free.

Now the question if what LMS livery to repaint her in, and do I attempt a "semi" conversion?
Title: Re: Barely any bargains
Post by: Railwaygun on December 17, 2015, 12:25:27 PM
A young child getting a starter set doesn't care if the loco is crude.  Getting ANY N-gauge set for the sort of price you can pick up an OO-gauge starter set must be a bonus.  Or don't we want new young entrants in N?

List price for the set has been quoted as 79.99 and 109.99.  I don't care which of these is correct.

49.99 is a bargain.

Les

the utilitarian nature of the loco probably means it is kid proof! imagine what they could do to a 200 Kettle!
Title: Re: Barely any bargains
Post by: MrDavidCallan on December 19, 2015, 08:03:22 PM
when bargain hunting on Ebay.Two words that make me want to attack someone with a needle file.....DEL PRADO! anyone else get Prado rage?
Title: Re: Barely any bargains
Post by: NeMo on December 19, 2015, 08:21:18 PM
Just add -"del prado" to your search... and they'll be gone!

Cheers, NeMo

when bargain hunting on Ebay.Two words that make me want to attack someone with a needle file.....DEL PRADO! anyone else get Prado rage?
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