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Your Layout and Models => Train Surgery => Topic started by: grahame on October 17, 2015, 11:29:53 AM

Title: Dapol HST 125 power car - More problems
Post by: grahame on October 17, 2015, 11:29:53 AM
While I love this model and the detail,  it has been far from trouble free. Some time back I reported this problem which appears to be very wide spread.

http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=17621.msg175720#msg175720 (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=17621.msg175720#msg175720)

I never got a proper response from DCC supplies..pretty dismissive. Well here is something else going on. Not related to the other but perhaps it is?

! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IF2Au46P-1c&feature=youtu.be#)

The power car runs very erratically..starts, slows down speeds up then stalls. If I turn it upside down and let the split chassis pick up directly from the track it runs perfectly. in this video towards the end that is me varying the speed of the loco with controller, very smooth. Even with a bit of load on the wheels it does not falter. This certainly suggests power pick up with the bogies which I have cleaned fanatically every way I know how. Any one seen this problem, solved it? Only recently started to see this. I can pick it up after a stall, turn it upside down and it runs perfectly. Is there an intermittent short perhaps in the bogies?
Title: Re: Dapol HST 125 power car - More problems
Post by: Dr Al on October 17, 2015, 12:32:58 PM
It sounds like the same problem as you originally had. You really really need an ammeter to see what current it's drawing (you can get a vague feel if something's not right if it's hot) - the Dapol surging motor syndrome seems to recur a lot on any motor that has it. I assume that vid wasn't full power - if it was then it looked slow - there's definitely a problem.

It may be that when you run upside down there is just enough lack of load that it doesn't quite heat up and perform as you see on track.

Need current figures to conclusively diagnose though.

Cheers,
Alan
Title: Re: Dapol HST 125 power car - More problems
Post by: robert shrives on October 17, 2015, 08:19:38 PM
Hi
A recent HST I got had bent pickups on the chassis - I guess when bogie twisted in to fit so the contct on edge of strip - the spot of conductive grease not touching anything useful at all - By straightening up so it worked as designed  all a lot better.  Worth a check -  The bogie pick up is the weakpoint on all diesel designs  - where steam locos win! 

I have hardwired the old Farish 158 spring contact system. The Dapol 153/156 suffers same issue with a compresed srping no pickup plus losing same when talking bogie out. The current Dapol chassis is inspired by the Kato/ Lifelike chassis with a springy pickup strip bent down to contact with a curved section off the bogie pickup strip point contact being better for pickup and rotational resistance.

Surging/ high current windings in the Dapol motors is a problem for some but not had an issue but I have been playing with an NQP 67 with blown diodes - it is possible that the motor issue is giving high current issues beyond the capacity of components - some later work as 200v 5A capable parts fitted. So off to check this as well.   

Hope that is of help
Robert
Title: Re: Dapol HST 125 power car - More problems
Post by: Only Me on October 17, 2015, 08:52:00 PM
Running any dapol or farish model upside down is not recommended as you will chew up the gears and cause yourself more issues eh @Dr Al (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=263)
Title: Re: Dapol HST 125 power car - More problems
Post by: scruff on October 17, 2015, 09:14:29 PM
That's very true Only Me.. Any diesel from Farish or Dapol with pull out bogies should not be run upside down because the Large cog at the top of the bogie and the worm drive mesh tightly and cause damage.
Guess how I found out??? :dunce: Then I read the instructions!! :censored:

Grahame, have you tried cleaning the wheel backs, pickups by the wheels and the contacts where the power transfers from bogie to body with IPA. I had a Dapol 86 with transit grease all over the bogie/ body contacts, cleaned them and straightened the contacts and it runs like a dream now..

Cheers
Mark
Title: Re: Dapol HST 125 power car - More problems
Post by: Dr Al on October 17, 2015, 11:53:29 PM
Can't say that running upside down is something I've ever had any trouble with myself - though I've specifically avoided with the Farish 60 and 66s where the meshing with the worm is known to be slacker than some and others have posted problems doing this. Never seen an issue with Dapol so far or other Farish and have run Farish 37 and 47 upside down for quick wheel cleans no problems.

Cheers
Alan
Title: Re: Dapol HST 125 power car - More problems
Post by: sparky on October 18, 2015, 08:01:38 AM
I would look very carefully at how the tips of the wheels sit in the pick up strip and give them a good clean out...the other problem I had with the dapol arrangement of the axle ends sitting in the contact strip was that one of the actual wheels themselves came loose on the axle and was sliding slightly along the axle causing  an intermittent power drop..it was a class 56 wheel which I replaced and now works fine.
Title: Re: Dapol HST 125 power car - More problems
Post by: grahame on October 18, 2015, 11:26:10 AM
It sounds like the same problem as you originally had. You really really need an ammeter to see what current it's drawing

Cheers,
Alan

Thanks for your comment..I will get hold of an ammeter and take some current readings. Will post when available.
Title: Re: Dapol HST 125 power car - More problems
Post by: grahame on October 18, 2015, 11:31:23 AM
Grahame, have you tried cleaning the wheel backs, pickups by the wheels and the contacts where the power transfers from bogie to body with IPA.
Cheers
Mark

Ah ok..so the power is picked up by wipers on the back of the wheel, yes? I wasn't sure about this. Sometimes it is the axle tips, with split axles...and the pickup is just inside the sideframe of the bogie. Will also check.

These bogies have been cleaned in an ultrasonic bath with degreasing solvent which is totally harmless to plastic of any kind.
Title: Re: Dapol HST 125 power car - More problems
Post by: grahame on October 18, 2015, 11:43:44 AM
Hi
A recent HST I got had bent pickups on the chassis - I guess when bogie twisted in to fit so the contct on edge of strip - the spot of conductive grease not touching anything useful at all - By straightening up so it worked as designed  all a lot better.  Worth a check -  The bogie pick up is the weakpoint on all diesel designs  - where steam locos win! 

Hope that is of help
Robert

Many thanks..yes I will try bending that copper strip down a bit, with bogies off, to make it press harder against the copper pickup tab on the bogies. That is on my list of things to try.
Title: Re: Dapol HST 125 power car - More problems
Post by: grahame on October 18, 2015, 03:50:00 PM
If all else fails I will separate the split chassis and investigate the motor. i have not done this on the Dapol power car yet. Any one have photos/diagrams of what it looks like inside?
Title: Re: Dapol HST 125 power car - More problems
Post by: Dr Al on October 18, 2015, 07:19:02 PM
Ah ok..so the power is picked up by wipers on the back of the wheel, yes? .

The Dapol HST uses the pin point axle bearing pickups to take power from wheels to pickups. The wipers on the chassis block then take power from these to the chassis block.

HTH,
Alan
Title: Re: Dapol HST 125 power car - More problems
Post by: sparky on October 18, 2015, 08:39:55 PM
Purely coincendentatily but I am having a running session in my garage and posting from my old net book...just had to clean my HST exec power car (both bogies) as lights flickering and dropping power....dirt on the points of the axles and cleaned out the small indentation they sit in and everyone immediately much better.
Title: Re: Dapol HST 125 power car - More problems
Post by: grahame on October 18, 2015, 11:49:47 PM
...just had to clean my HST exec power car (both bogies) as lights flickering and dropping power....dirt on the points of the axles and cleaned out the small indentation they sit in and everyone immediately much better.


How do the bogies come apart to give access to the axle points? Thanks

Looks like we gently pry here (red arrows)

(http://i957.photobucket.com/albums/ae58/grahament/class%2043%20bogie_zpsesodrkm1.jpg)
Title: Re: Dapol HST 125 power car - More problems
Post by: Dr Al on October 18, 2015, 11:51:46 PM
How do the bogies come apart to give access to the axle points? Thanks

The bogies pull out from the chassis block. They then have a sideframe which unclips (front and back) from the main internal moulding. Unclipping this will remove the pickups and wheels, and from there you can remove the wheelsets from this sideframe.

HTH,
Alan
Title: Re: Dapol HST 125 power car - More problems
Post by: grahame on October 19, 2015, 02:51:34 PM
Some bad numbers I'm afraid
45% power, 6.45V, 270mA
55% power, 7.78V, 320mA
Title: Re: Dapol HST 125 power car - More problems
Post by: grahame on October 19, 2015, 04:55:00 PM
After carefully cleaning the bogies using the method above (taking wheels out and cleaning needle points etc.) I put it all back together, after adjusting the copper strips on the split chassis.
It ran two more circuits, stop and start before the motor totally failed. No life now at all. Will not even run when power applied to split chassis.
Considering how little run time this has had, it is VERY disappointing and I am sure that it is the, run slow and hot motor issue finally reaching
the inevitable conclusion. Total premature motor failure.
Title: Re: Dapol HST 125 power car - More problems
Post by: Only Me on October 19, 2015, 05:50:27 PM
I would think you have put the bigies back wrongly and jammed up th mechanism.  Suggest removing the bogies and then applying power to the chassis... If this works you may have either reassembled incorrectly or have a locked gear l.
Title: Re: Dapol HST 125 power car - More problems
Post by: Dr Al on October 19, 2015, 06:30:24 PM
With those current figures the motor had serious problems before the final outcome - the 5 sets I have all run at around 120-150mA full speed, pulling a full HST rake.

I had the same on a blue HST which drew over 300mA, got very hot, ran super slow and was sent back for replacement as a result. Sounds very like the same symptoms as yours. The reason it's slowing down on track is that it was getting very hot and basically overheating.

Sounds like it's finally burnt out a coil or more on the last circuit.  :'( . DCC supplies for a new motor may be the only option. I suspect it's likely had a QC failed motor right from new given you've reported previous problems.

Cheers,
Alan
Title: Re: Dapol HST 125 power car - More problems
Post by: Only Me on October 19, 2015, 06:40:27 PM
Unfortunately hst motors are like rocking horse poop... Or they were when myself and Maurits finally managed to source one
Title: Re: Dapol HST 125 power car - More problems
Post by: Dr Al on October 19, 2015, 06:50:48 PM
I've heard that the double ended motors are thin on the ground - it's the same motor used on pretty much all Dapol's diesels, and is a double ended version of that used on their steam (of which spares are available).

If I were the OP I'd politely contact Dapol direct (their Facebook page seems where they are most responsive) and explain the situation - clearly this model was basically faulty from new, even if it's out of warranty now they would be right to at least send you the necessary spares. Worth a go!

Cheers,
Alan
Title: Re: Dapol HST 125 power car - More problems
Post by: grahame on October 19, 2015, 09:16:36 PM
If I were the OP I'd politely contact Dapol direct (their Facebook page seems where they are most responsive) and explain the situation - clearly this model was basically faulty from new, even if it's out of warranty now they would be right to at least send you the necessary spares. Worth a go!

Cheers,
Alan


Already done. I think its interesting that they do not have a replacement motor on the spares page: only the whole motorised chassis

http://www.dccsupplies.com/cat-751/class-43-hst.htm (http://www.dccsupplies.com/cat-751/class-43-hst.htm)

I have asked DCC to quote cost of replacing motor (which i do think Dapol should pay for but likely will not). From what I can see it will require some unsoldering and resoldering.

I have yet to hear anything from Dapol on this latest reported issue.
Title: Re: Dapol HST 125 power car - More problems
Post by: grahame on October 19, 2015, 09:26:16 PM
I would think you have put the bigies back wrongly and jammed up th mechanism.  Suggest removing the bogies and then applying power to the chassis... If this works you may have either reassembled incorrectly or have a locked gear l.

Definitely did not put them back wrongly. When i say it does not move, I mean with the bogies out and just jumping the split chassis on to track. Before this worked just fine.
Title: Re: Dapol HST 125 power car - More problems
Post by: Only Me on October 19, 2015, 09:27:15 PM
I have to ask the other side of the coin here, youve had it 3-4 years? You have also taken it apart yourself ? - IMO you should have returned it straight away on issues..

See below... Great news!
Title: Re: Dapol HST 125 power car - More problems
Post by: Dr Al on October 19, 2015, 10:10:44 PM
Peco certainly seem willing to do so - trot on over to their 2251 thread and read of many happy customers who've had things repaired or upgraded long out of warranty, or clearly out of Peco's responsibility..

So not unprecidented by that example (and I'm sure I've read of Dapol sending out bits to folks too) - so definitely worth asking I'd have thought..... you don't ask, you don't get....  :thumbsup:

Cheers,
Alan
Title: Re: Dapol HST 125 power car - More problems
Post by: grahame on October 20, 2015, 01:05:52 AM
I have to ask the other side of the coin here, youve had it 3-4 years and expect a warranty repair?
Nowhere near 3-4 years! It has progressively got worse.
The question is "was it defective from new"? Given what it's doing
now I say yes. Is this thing only intended to last 2 years?
No wonder we love Minitrix!
Title: Re: Dapol HST 125 power car - More problems
Post by: Dr Al on October 20, 2015, 09:19:50 AM
One thing it's worth doing if you can is wiring the ammeter into your control circuit permanently - it can be really beneficial for catching faults early with a high, or rising current draw. It might not stop a failure, but at least you'll catch it as soon as you can and can then take action. Over time you start to see what's normal for a given loco, so if it starts misbehaving it jumps out immediately!

Cheers,
Alan
Title: Re: Dapol HST 125 power car - More problems
Post by: grahame on October 20, 2015, 11:31:15 AM
If I were the OP I'd politely contact Dapol direct (their Facebook page seems where they are most responsive) and explain the situation - clearly this model was basically faulty from new, even if it's out of warranty now they would be right to at least send you the necessary spares. Worth a go!

Cheers,
Alan

Good man!!!! Great suggestion Dr. Al.....just got this first thing (in Houston any way) via Facebook...

"Hi Grahame, the first I saw of your problem was yesterday at 4 ish when I was copied on an email exchange. I suggested we take a look at your HST and see if we can fix the problem. With regard to the issues on line, I am afraid you generally only hear of problems on line and when you consider we have sold many thousands of HST sets, it is inevitable we will have a small number of problems. Dapol will never walk away from these and will fix these problems when possible. I am sure Kevin Grindley will be in touch today to give you our Freepost address for the HST return. I hope this answers your question and please accept my apology for this communication breakdown."
Title: Re: Dapol HST 125 power car - More problems
Post by: Dr Al on October 20, 2015, 11:39:46 AM
 :thumbsup:  :thumbsup:

Good stuff there from Dapol. And I'd agree with their comment about it being in the minority - I've had one dodgey set, but 6 others that were all good.

Great smart bit of customer service there - I'm sure they'll just swap either the motor or the chassis for you and get you back in business.

Cheers,
Alan
Title: Re: Dapol HST 125 power car - More problems
Post by: grahame on October 20, 2015, 05:11:14 PM
OK after a bit more "work and coaxing" the motor is running again..but still very hot and very erratic. Just as it was a few days back, despite very thorough cleaning of bogies.
I will post photos of the bogies apart in case others wish to see, like I did before I took them apart. It's all back together and assembled correctly (just in case any one was wondering).
Its behaving exactly as it was when I started this recent investigation, and posting the same horrible current draw....but this power car is going back to Dapol! I am sure the motor is in its death throws!
Title: Re: Dapol HST 125 power car - More problems
Post by: CliveH on October 21, 2015, 04:21:15 PM
I recently replaced the deceased double ended motor in my Dapol Hymek with a Mashima 1015. Surprisingly easy to do, and it performs much better than it ever did with the original motor. No chassis, electronics, drive chain, or bodywork mods required.
Here's a picture of the Hymek motor holder with the Mashima fitted. No idea if the HST motor set up is similar, but if it is, it's a potential repair route for less than £25.

(Sorry, but you are not allowed to access the gallery)


Title: Re: Dapol HST 125 power car - More problems
Post by: DesertHound on October 21, 2015, 04:31:27 PM
Fantastic Clive!
Title: Re: Dapol HST 125 power car - More problems
Post by: Dr Al on October 21, 2015, 05:07:38 PM
for less than £25.


Even cheaper! - the 1015 can be had for £13.50:

http://www.kbscale.com/motors-gears.html (http://www.kbscale.com/motors-gears.html)

Cheers,
Alan
Title: Re: Dapol HST 125 power car - More problems
Post by: grahame on October 28, 2015, 10:31:49 AM
Dapol to the rescue  :claphappy: :claphappy:

Message from Joel Bright yesterday morning

"Hi Grahame,
 
Many thanks for coming back to me.
 
I will send out a new power car to you that has been tested ad runs nicely. It may not be the same livery but at least you can swap the chassis over.
 
I hope this will sort the problem out for you.
 
Kind Regards"


How can you do better than that? Bravo Dapol..you chaps are great!  :D
Title: Re: Dapol HST 125 power car - More problems
Post by: grahame on October 28, 2015, 10:48:09 AM
As soon as the new one arrives and is running on my lay out..I'll be ready to fearlessly drill for the commutator (as per RusselH) and will report my findings. Hopefully this will help out others.
Title: Re: Dapol HST 125 power car - More problems
Post by: Dr Al on October 28, 2015, 11:38:21 AM
How can you do better than that? Bravo Dapol..you chaps are great!  :D

Sometimes worth brass-necking it!

I suspect you may find the commutator has collapsed on the other one as another member showed in the Hymek thread.

Cheers,
Alan
Title: Re: Dapol HST 125 power car - More problems
Post by: grahame on November 12, 2015, 12:36:00 PM
Just received a Virgin Trains HST power car from Dapol. Swapped the body for my Executive livery and she is running really nicely. Hope it stays that way. I think this was a repaired power car..I presume it had a new motor...but great thanks to Joel at Dapol  :D

They did not want the old one so I AM going to find the commutator..no matter what!
Title: Re: Dapol HST 125 power car - More problems
Post by: Only Me on November 12, 2015, 01:02:00 PM
Dont forget to run it in for an hour each way at about 70% power
Title: Re: Dapol HST 125 power car - More problems
Post by: CliveH on November 12, 2015, 02:51:37 PM
They did not want the old one so I AM going to find the commutator..no matter what!

Graham(Sorry, but you are not allowed to access the gallery)

If it helps, this is the motor from a Hymek.
If the HST one is similar :-
Take out the brushes and springs
Bend up the four lugs
The casing will divide and the armature assembly will just drop out.

Cheers

Clive
Title: Re: Dapol HST 125 power car - More problems
Post by: grahame on November 16, 2015, 02:07:54 AM
Just in case you thought this saga was over (as I did) ..’fraid not! The power car ran nicely when I first received it but I did not run it very much. Next day I decided to run it in..but I did it slowly not at 70% as was suggested by "Only Me"  (you were right). The day after that I decided to run it in again but a bit faster. Put it on the track..NOTHING…no movement, no lights nothing. Checked track with meter..good voltage..still nothing! Several profanities were uttered which do not belong on here. :veryangry: :veryangry: I pulled out the bogies and VIOLA..an UNGODLY mess of huge amounts of grease. Way more than I ever saw on my first one. It was everywhere. All over the worm gears, the contact strips, the bogies gears and metal pickups. I set to cleaning it very thoroughly with tissue pads and hydrocarbon solvent. I did not have my ultrasonic bath available otherwise the bogies would have gone straight in. Back on the track and now she runs…ran in at 70% power..after half way..pulled the bogies and cleaned again. The grease had even oozed out between the split chassis. Now she runs OK..right…wrong!

After a short time the speed would suddenly slow then speed back up..when it was slow I saw voltage drop..then back up when speed up. Classic sign of intermittent short. Oh ****. Not the power car. The good news was..when I took off the trailing DVT..dummy power car the problem went away. So we pulled the bogies out of the unpowered car and replaced them with the ones in my original dead power car (these had been carefully cleaned before while trouble shooting power car #1)….and NOW it runs perfectly! I ran it for another good hour and a half at pretty high speed with a full train..running very well and only slightly warm.

I may have to pull bogies from new power car and clean again at some point but for now its fine.

Please don’t get me wrong…I am still very grateful to Dapol for sending out the replacement which I now think was not a repair, but a new one due to the huge excess of grease, but SERIOUSLY they really need to fix this problem (it has been noted several times before). Looks like it was squirted in there from the grease gun I used on the trunnions of my old Morris Minor. I would not be surprised if these hot and burnt out motors are caused by melted grease getting in there and causing untold damage.
Title: Re: Dapol HST 125 power car - More problems
Post by: Only Me on November 16, 2015, 08:13:25 AM
You should be running in locos without any load ie nothing being pulled.

Paul
Title: Re: Dapol HST 125 power car - More problems
Post by: Dr Al on November 16, 2015, 09:47:24 AM
After a short time the speed would suddenly slow then speed back up..when it was slow I saw voltage drop..then back up when speed up. Classic sign of intermittent short

I'd keep a close eye on this - it sounds very much like Dapol's intermittent motor surging syndrome which seems to occur on some models (I've only seen it on ones that were early users of the 'super creep' motor).

It happens intermittently enough that you can think you've cured it only for it to return on the next running session or a few running sessions down the line, so it could be still there and giving a false sense that it was the dummy car.

Best to run the power car alone until it's sure this is clear - and if you can get an ammeter on it, all the better (the speed slow is generally accompanied by a rise in current of the level of doubling).

HTH,
Alan
Title: Re: Dapol HST 125 power car - More problems
Post by: grahame on November 16, 2015, 12:30:04 PM
You should be running in locos without any load ie nothing being pulled.

Paul

I did, during the "1 hour in each direction" running in period. In fact I did that twice..only added the train after both running in periods...
Title: Re: Dapol HST 125 power car - More problems
Post by: grahame on November 16, 2015, 12:42:35 PM
- it sounds very much like Dapol's intermittent motor surging syndrome which seems to occur on some models (I've only seen it on ones that were early users of the 'super creep' motor).

However many "issues" do these have?  :(....so far it has not recurred after changing the dummy bogies (which I will not thoroughly clean)..but I take your point..thanks...
Title: Re: Dapol HST 125 power car - More problems
Post by: grahame on November 16, 2015, 01:11:03 PM
Makes me even more determined to "fix" my old one..even if I have to replace the motor as detailed above if possible. It seems that people have done similar Dapol locos but not this exact one..so I will take plenty of photos as I go. My first try will be to access the commutator one way or another..several pans outlined in this thread.
Title: Re: Dapol HST 125 power car - More problems
Post by: grahame on November 19, 2015, 05:34:03 PM
Ok have accessed an fully cleaned commutator.
Unfortunately the orange and grey wires broke off
PCB board....can any one tell me where to reconnect (photo)
Or advise how to bypass board since I don't use DCC.
(http://i957.photobucket.com/albums/ae58/grahament/Mobile%20Uploads/63DD141F-B44F-41F0-BF52-9C315F6EF399_zps62rj71vk.jpg)
Title: Re: Dapol HST 125 power car - More problems
Post by: grahame on November 19, 2015, 05:44:54 PM
(http://)http://i957.photobucket.com/albums/ae58/grahament/Mobile%20Uploads/6186ED33-29C6-47F5-93AB-74A377B2F276_zpss1xxviie.jpeg (http://i957.photobucket.com/albums/ae58/grahament/Mobile%20Uploads/6186ED33-29C6-47F5-93AB-74A377B2F276_zpss1xxviie.jpeg)
Title: Re: Dapol HST 125 power car - More problems
Post by: Only Me on November 19, 2015, 05:45:58 PM
If you dont want lights then all you have to do is connect one wire to one side of chassis and one to the other... If you want lights you need to solder them back to the pcb board.. Look on your other hst for the correct solder mounts marked M+ and M- ... If you find after soldering the train runs in reverse then just reverse your soldering
Title: Re: Dapol HST 125 power car - More problems
Post by: grahame on November 19, 2015, 05:52:14 PM
Thanks..jumping wires on the the split chassis..then jumping battery to split chassis..voila!! Runs nicely. Great info!
Title: Re: Dapol HST 125 power car - More problems
Post by: grahame on November 19, 2015, 08:11:02 PM
Talking about the old, HST power car here. Ok jumping wires to chassis I just measured 60 mA at 9 volts.
That's one whole hell of a lot better than it was (see above).
I do not have the skill or equipment to solder back on to M+/M- of the PCB board so I guess it's running without lights.
Title: Re: Dapol HST 125 power car - More problems
Post by: grahame on November 19, 2015, 09:35:44 PM
Many thanks to RusselH...I followed his method of milling out the black plastic cover to find below the commutator. I can see no reason why Dapol cannot manufacture this part
with a circular hole for access?
Title: Re: Dapol HST 125 power car - More problems
Post by: grahame on November 19, 2015, 09:39:12 PM
Thanks also for all other suggestions..this one seems the easiest..and it wasn't that easy...problem is lots of wires get in the way...due to being soldered in place.
I did inevitably pull some out. Very hard to avoid. My suggestion to others wishing to try this..unsolder the orange and grey wires from the bottom of the motor
where it is connected to resistors etc...this is pretty easy to solder back on and will prevent you from ripping them off the PCB board like i did.
Title: Re: Dapol HST 125 power car - More problems
Post by: grahame on November 21, 2015, 12:32:21 AM
Here is the story so far..the old power car is running very nicely and very COOL at 68 mA @ 9 volts...now why did it have to be so hard to clean the commutator Dapol?

***********************************************************************************************

1: Using fine tissue pads dipped in n-pentane (very clean hydrocarbon solvent – I work in a Chemistry lab..this solvent is ideal for small locos) I cleaned the commutator over and over until the tissue picked up no black colour at all.
2. I cut a very thin strip of really really fine emery paper, made a pad and with forceps jammed it on to the commutator. I then rotated the armature over and over for a long time. After this is was bright and shiny.
3. Raked out the gaps with very fine needle.

There are two other things of interest that I wanted to highlight:

a)   I had tested it over and over..all good. Put the whole thing back together and..NOTHING..totally dead. Now what..plus bad words says I. It turns out that one of the green cylindrical components under the motor had burnt out (resistor??..see photos above). If I jumped power over that..hey presto back in business. So I moved the cable and resolder on the other side of this bad component. What the ****..can anything else go wrong.

b)   I have NO IDEA why..but the lights work..only they are reversed..red forwards, white backwards…I did not solder motors wires back on to M+/M- of PCB board…I soldered to copper contact strips on split chassis. I thought the lights would not work. How can I reverse the colours? Any ideas.

So what an adventure. ...but she is running nicely as I type..and I am using the Virgin trains body..that came with the new power car, this has the Executive livery body of the main train.
Title: Re: Dapol HST 125 power car - More problems
Post by: Only Me on November 21, 2015, 01:02:17 AM
You need to reverse the dcc planking plate ornre solder your motor wires to the alternate side.

Ps the resistors are not resistors but smoothing capacitors..
Title: Re: Dapol HST 125 power car - More problems
Post by: grahame on November 21, 2015, 03:26:09 AM
Ps the resistors are not resistors but smoothing capacitors..

Thanks for clarification...OK so one of the capacitors blew out...

Title: Re: Dapol HST 125 power car - More problems
Post by: grahame on November 21, 2015, 03:28:46 AM
You need to reverse the dcc planking plate ornre solder your motor wires to the alternate side.

OK so pull out the DCC blank plate and put it back in upside down?

Title: Re: Dapol HST 125 power car - More problems
Post by: CliveH on November 21, 2015, 07:32:35 AM
Them capacitors ain't capacitors, them's inductors!!

Sorry to be an electronic anorak but it's the brown disc things that are capacitors. Basically two metal plates separated by an insulator. They don't let direct current through, but do let alternating current pass. They are fitted between the brushes and the chassis to supply an easier route for the high frequency alternating current created by the sparks at the commutator (always there, albeit maybe small) to earth, and so reduce potential interference to radios, TVs etc. The ones on the HST are 10 nanoFarad (103 = 10 plus three noughts =10,000 picoFarads = 10nF)
The green cylinder things are inductors - coils of wire which do let direct current through, but present a resistance to alternating current. They are fitted between the motor and the pcb to stop any high voltage spikes from the sparks reaching the electronics of the loco where even at their extremely low power, they could cause damage - so don't short them out! The ones on the HST are 3.3 microHenry (orange, orange, gold  = 3,3, multiply by 0.1 = 3.3uH)

Cheers

Clive
Title: Re: Dapol HST 125 power car - More problems
Post by: CliveH on November 21, 2015, 07:50:49 AM
- so don't short them out!
If you've got DCC fitted
Title: Re: Dapol HST 125 power car - More problems
Post by: grahame on November 21, 2015, 11:29:40 AM
- so don't short them out!
If you've got DCC fitted

No DCC here..just simple DC soul..and I had to bypass it or the motor would not run..the thing was presenting an open circuit thus it must have blown...thanks for the correct electronic info...
Title: Re: Dapol HST 125 power car - More problems
Post by: grahame on November 21, 2015, 11:36:33 AM
Them capacitors ain't capacitors, them's inductors!!

Sorry to be an electronic anorak but it's the brown disc things that are capacitors. Basically two metal plates separated by an insulator. They don't let direct current through, but do let alternating current pass. They are fitted between the brushes and the chassis to supply an easier route for the high frequency alternating current created by the sparks at the commutator (always there, albeit maybe small) to earth, and so reduce potential interference to radios, TVs etc. The ones on the HST are 10 nanoFarad (103 = 10 plus three noughts =10,000 picoFarads = 10nF)
The green cylinder things are inductors - coils of wire which do let direct current through, but present a resistance to alternating current. They are fitted between the motor and the pcb to stop any high voltage spikes from the sparks reaching the electronics of the loco where even at their extremely low power, they could cause damage - so don't short them out! The ones on the HST are 3.3 microHenry (orange, orange, gold  = 3,3, multiply by 0.1 = 3.3uH)

Cheers

Clive

I am thinking that the high current, overheating issue which really looks like a simple dirty commutator could have blown this inductor, yes? So if other have this problem try jumping over the inductor with power cables to see if motor runs. I am sure reaplcing this inducotr would be very inexpensive and just a simple soldering job.
Title: Re: Dapol HST 125 power car - More problems
Post by: CliveH on November 21, 2015, 12:19:32 PM
high current
would certainly stress a little inductor, which is wound with very fine wire.

very inexpensive and just a simple soldering job.

Correct. Prices vary considerable with the quantity. For small quantities the postage / shipping will probably cost more!

Cheers

Clive.
Title: Re: Dapol HST 125 power car - More problems
Post by: grahame on November 21, 2015, 12:31:29 PM
I'm thinking that someone could think their motor has finally died when it's just one of these inductors..has the same effect..motor appears dead. Worth checking everyone. :hmmm:
Title: Re: Dapol HST 125 power car - More problems
Post by: grahame on November 21, 2015, 01:13:07 PM
... If you want lights you need to solder them back to the pcb board..

Apparently not..since I have soldered the motor wires to the copper contact strips on split chassis and the lights are still working..albeit backwards ....can anyone say why?
Title: Re: Dapol HST 125 power car - More problems
Post by: CliveH on November 21, 2015, 01:55:57 PM
the lights are still working..albeit backwards ....can anyone say why?
Graham,

Think of it as the lights going the right way, but the motor is turning the wrong way! Swap the motor wires round, then it will run the same way as the lights.

Cheers

Clive
Title: Re: Dapol HST 125 power car - More problems
Post by: grahame on November 21, 2015, 02:20:45 PM
A bit noisy but considering everything that has happened to this one I'm not surprised..

https://youtu.be/x_yg98YoPFk (https://youtu.be/x_yg98YoPFk)

Will address the lights another time..getting the body back on was quite tricky due to additional wiring required to jump motor to the chassis.
Title: Re: Dapol HST 125 power car - More problems
Post by: grahame on November 21, 2015, 06:51:56 PM
Done! Wires exchanged..lights now correct. :D
Title: Re: Dapol HST 125 power car - More problems
Post by: grahame on December 04, 2015, 04:07:46 PM

I'd keep a close eye on this - it sounds very much like Dapol's intermittent motor surging syndrome which seems to occur on some models (I've only seen it on ones that were early users of the 'super creep' motor).

It happens intermittently enough that you can think you've cured it only for it to return on the next running session or a few running sessions down the line, so it could be still there and giving a false sense that it was the dummy car.



Did we decide what causes this? Is it also possibly a less than perfect commutator pickup..possibly with great contamination....
Title: Re: Dapol HST 125 power car - More problems
Post by: ahodgett on August 18, 2018, 06:13:37 PM
Came across this thread by accident today. I too have an HST awaiting a motor. It got so hot it would stop and need to cool down. Even without bogies it would get hot, running light. Must get an ammeter in circuit good suggestion. In the end I dismantled the motor to find a comm like a screw thread. Keep looking at DCC supplies for spares but nothing of import there. No buying anymore if spares are going to be like hens teeth. [The current ones give a significant set of exploded parts list diagrams, but no part names, so looks hopeful.]
Anyone tried the Mashima 1015 in an HST, or anyone got exact dimensions of the Mashima please?
On other problems I polish the 4 pickups [Brasso on a cotton bud.] on the chassis and coat them with a thin smear of Daywat oil (from Farish and BR Lines many years ago.] I suck out the transit grease with first a solder sucker pump, then a hypodermic needle to get the little bits and the bogies go in a ultrasonic cleaner. I have attempted a list of spares based on the exploded diagrams if anyone would like a copy or can I upload it anywhere?   
Title: Re: Dapol HST 125 power car - More problems
Post by: Only Me on August 18, 2018, 06:54:06 PM
Came across this thread by accident today. I too have an HST awaiting a motor. It got so hot it would stop and need to cool down. Even without bogies it would get hot, running light. Must get an ammeter in circuit good suggestion. In the end I dismantled the motor to find a comm like a screw thread. Keep looking at DCC supplies for spares but nothing of import there. No buying anymore if spares are going to be like hens teeth. [The current ones give a significant set of exploded parts list diagrams, but no part names, so looks hopeful.]
Anyone tried the Mashima 1015 in an HST, or anyone got exact dimensions of the Mashima please?
On other problems I polish the 4 pickups [Brasso on a cotton bud.] on the chassis and coat them with a thin smear of Daywat oil (from Farish and BR Lines many years ago.] I suck out the transit grease with first a solder sucker pump, then a hypodermic needle to get the little bits and the bogies go in a ultrasonic cleaner. I have attempted a list of spares based on the exploded diagrams if anyone would like a copy or can I upload it anywhere?   

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