N Gauge Forum

General Category => Crowdfunding => Topic started by: Ben A on September 09, 2015, 09:41:22 PM

Title: Class 21 & 29 proposed by Revolution Trains
Post by: Ben A on September 09, 2015, 09:41:22 PM
Hello all,

We are proposing the Class 21 and 29 locomotives in N.

These models would be manufactured by Dapol, and after negotiations we feel we have got a good deal for anyone who backs this model.

The price will be £110 for the standard DCC ready model, and £205 for DCC sound fitted.  Because none of these locos exist anymore, the sound will be produced for us by Legomanbiffo using sounds from a genuine MAN engine (for the 21) and electrical equipment that was common to other locomotives that are still in existence.

From 1958-1960 North British in Glasgow built 58 type 2 locomotives, later given the TOPS code Class 21. The first 38 were deployed to the Eastern Region, the remainder to Scotland, though within months all
were sent north of the border.

D6103 at Cambridge in 1960.

(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/18/thumb_28873.jpg) (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=28873)

When introduced all were in plain green, with disc indicators and nose connector doors, though later yellow warning panels were applied.

Poor reliability led to a limited scheme to re-engine some members of the class, designated Class 29.

D6123 was the first to receive the new Paxman engine, but the front end was not modified and it retained its disc headcode indicators.

(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/18/thumb_28871.jpg) (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=28871)

The other 19 converted locomotives received headcode boxes and some also were repainted into BR Blue livery.  There is some variations, with old or new style numbers and differing positions of the BR totem.

(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/18/thumb_28872.jpg) (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=28872)

(Thanks to Graham Wareham for the above two photos)

The re-engined locomotives were far more reliable and worked fairly successfully from Glasgow to Fort William and Oban, and across central Scotland via Perth and Aberdeen to Inverness.

However, in the early 1970s they were declared non-standard and all were withdrawn by the end of 1971.  None are preserved.

To reach the production threshold we need to get to 1200 orders for model 1, then a further 900 for model 2 - obviously whether the 21 or 29 comes first depends on which gets the most interest!

At the moment, as ever, we require no money just a serious expression of interest; we are hoping to have reached at least 1200 orders by Xmas so that work can begin in the New Year.

Since all the tooling will be paid for and funding is guaranteed, we are assured that our models would progress rapidly through the production cycle.

This model has been selected because we know Dapol can tool the characteristic face very well (it's the same, virtually, as their excellent Class 22) and they are producing this model in OO anyway.  If this drive is successful we are hoping the N gauge model for our supporters would come out at about the same time as the OO model. 

If it is produced, the model would be available in the standard Dapol range eventually but not for at least two years.

We also feel this model will go very well with the existing Farish Classes 24 and 25, and upcoming DJM Class 17; making small Scottish layouts very achievable.

cheers

Ben A.
Title: Re: Class 21 & 29 proposed by Revolution Trains
Post by: Richard G Dallimore on September 09, 2015, 09:46:18 PM
Good luck
Title: Re: Class 21 & 29 proposed by Revolution Trains
Post by: ScottyStitch on September 09, 2015, 10:01:57 PM
Outstanding!
Title: Re: Class 21 & 29 proposed by Revolution Trains
Post by: Ben A on September 09, 2015, 10:07:40 PM

Hello all,

I would also like to add that this model is being offered as a direct result of the persuasive and well argued discussion on this forum.  It seemed quite clear to me that there was a compelling case for the model in terms of filling a gap, and with Dapol committed to the OO model, and having done much of the research, it seemed an ideal opportunity for Revolution Trains.

I have also, as with the TEA, prepared a map showing where these locomotives operated.  However, I do not claim it to be exhaustive and I would be happy to amend it if necessary:

(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/18/thumb_28889.jpg) (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=28889)

We will be updating our website very shortly to add these models.

cheers

Ben A.
Title: Re: Class 21 & 29 proposed by Revolution Trains
Post by: Only Me on September 09, 2015, 10:09:59 PM
We'll need a couple of these for Crowland Green!
Title: Re: Class 21 & 29 proposed by Revolution Trains
Post by: Woodenhead on September 09, 2015, 11:26:54 PM
Interesting that the 320 thread has seem kingly got more interest despite AC electrics not being popular.

A pity I don't do green diesels in Scotland though I was tempted to play with time on a blue 17 so perhaps I should consider a 29.
Title: Re: Class 21 & 29 proposed by Revolution Trains
Post by: Portpatrick on September 10, 2015, 12:11:31 AM
There will certainly be an order from me .  If there were only 1, I would really prefer the 21, but would likely have one of each of 21 and 29.  Both will have to be in green.
Title: Re: Class 21 & 29 proposed by Revolution Trains
Post by: zwilnik on September 10, 2015, 12:18:28 AM
I'd be up for green ones too. Again preferably a 21.
Title: Re: Class 21 & 29 proposed by Revolution Trains
Post by: red_death on September 10, 2015, 12:21:43 AM
Now that the news is out in the open I will get the expressions of interest page up before TINGS.

Please come and talk to Ben and me on Stand 1 if you come along to TINGS!  We would love to hear your ideas and thoughts on our proposed projects (and potential future projects!).

Cheers, Mike
Title: Re: Class 21 & 29 proposed by Revolution Trains
Post by: StufromEGDL on September 10, 2015, 01:20:23 AM
Hi Gang,

This will undoubtedly fill a niche market gap...and is an inspired choice given what is available and what is promised from other vendors. I sincerely hope that this prospers as Revolution's other announcements have done.

I do, however, approach this announcement a little more cautiously, as this would be a rule 1 purchase for me ( along with Claytons) and I have yet to be convinced of the longevity of Dapol offerings. That is not to say that I don't have a substantial amount of Dapol locos (because I do).

As this announcement has been made simultaneously with the 320/321 launch, I am more inclined to support the latter as that is definitely in my era radar...and I can justify that a lot more easily.....especially as my credit card has just taken a hit for TEAs and there is still a balance to pay for some Pendolinos.

Some of the above may sound negative...it is not meant to...and I wish Ben and Mike every success with reaching their target for this one!!

Later,
Stu from EGDL.
Title: Re: Class 21 & 29 proposed by Revolution Trains
Post by: railsquid on September 10, 2015, 01:37:32 AM
Interesting that the 320 thread has seem kingly got more interest despite AC electrics not being popular.

Early days, small sample size?

Tragically neither fit into my preferred period (late BR blue/early sectorization) but I'd be interested in the 21/29 as a Rule 1 (subsection "memorial to long-forgotten locomotive classes") purchase, and also to support the project in general.

What liveries are planned? I'd prefer blue, could live with green. Not interested in DCC.
Title: Re: Class 21 & 29 proposed by Revolution Trains
Post by: gc4946 on September 10, 2015, 07:00:40 AM
D6122 survived at Barry until it was scrapped, with D601, in 1980. D600 was scrapped there about 1970. Had they survived a few years longer, they would have been preserved.

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=d6122+barry&sa=N&biw=1093&bih=514&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&ved=0CDIQsARqFQoTCJvh3Ivk68cCFcJp2wod_Z4BfQ (https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=d6122+barry&sa=N&biw=1093&bih=514&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&ved=0CDIQsARqFQoTCJvh3Ivk68cCFcJp2wod_Z4BfQ)
Title: Re: Class 21 & 29 proposed by Revolution Trains
Post by: robert shrives on September 10, 2015, 01:01:02 PM
Look good as well, For me 6123 in two tone green as refurb and a blue one - you wil need to do a dummy 21 for towing the failed thing!

I can see some fun with West Highland lines...

Robert
Title: Re: Class 21 & 29 proposed by Revolution Trains
Post by: PLD on September 10, 2015, 01:04:27 PM
Best of luck of course with this one, however I can't help thinking that Dapol would have done it anyway (eventually) so rather than bring to market something that would not otherwise be produced, this is merely accelerating production...

I'm not saying that is a bad thing, just that it may not seem quite so "revolutionary" as the pendolino is...
Title: Re: Class 21 & 29 proposed by Revolution Trains
Post by: ScottyStitch on September 10, 2015, 01:14:41 PM
Look good as well, For me 6123 in two tone green as refurb and a blue one - you wil need to do a dummy 21 for towing the failed thing!

I can see some fun with West Highland lines...

Robert

And when they both go on fire?  :D
Title: Re: Class 21 & 29 proposed by Revolution Trains
Post by: ScottyStitch on September 10, 2015, 01:20:49 PM
D6125 for me, would be an ideal machine to produce. By all accounts it stayed in single-tone green without yellow panels all its life, so would suit layouts throughout the 21s lifespan.

D6123, is a nice oddity because, despite converting to a class 29, it never got the headcode box.

My understanding is that, should the model get the go-ahead, it will be for the non-tablet apparatus fitted machines, which rules out a number of options.

I'd be in for four, I think. These things are pretty iconic for the Scottish region around the transition period.

One of my favourite Class 21 images I have is of a 21 piloting an A4 on an express fish working through Perth.
Title: Re: Class 21 & 29 proposed by Revolution Trains
Post by: ScottyStitch on September 10, 2015, 01:22:17 PM
See thread here of the original pitch, for more info and more photos:

http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=26131.0 (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=26131.0)
Title: Re: Class 21 & 29 proposed by Revolution Trains
Post by: ohlavache on September 10, 2015, 01:39:19 PM
Youpi !!!  :bounce:

That's really good news!
But I didn't understand which liveries will be proposed.
Will the choice be limited to the three locomotives in the first post ?
- D6103 class 21, green
- D6123 class 29, blue with full yellow ends
- D6129 class 29, blue with full yellow ends and headcode boxes

My understanding is that we could also have:
- green with small yellow panels
- green with small yellow panels and headcode boxes
- green with headcode boxes (as this one: http://s847.photobucket.com/user/gdaysydney/media/class29.jpg.html (http://s847.photobucket.com/user/gdaysydney/media/class29.jpg.html))

Thanks by advance for the clarification.
Title: Re: Class 21 & 29 proposed by Revolution Trains
Post by: ScottyStitch on September 10, 2015, 01:50:35 PM
Hello all,

We are proposing the Class 21 and 29 locomotives in N.

These models would be manufactured by Dapol, and after negotiations we feel we have got a good deal for anyone who backs this model.

The price will be £110 for the standard DCC ready model, and £205 for DCC sound fitted.  Because none of these locos exist anymore, the sound will be produced for us by Legomanbiffo using sounds from a genuine MAN engine (for the 21) and electrical equipment that was common to other locomotives that are still in existence.

From 1958-1960 North British in Glasgow built 58 type 2 locomotives, later given the TOPS code Class 21. The first 38 were deployed to the Eastern Region, the remainder to Scotland, though within months all
were sent north of the border.

D6103 at Cambridge in 1960.

([url]http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/18/thumb_28873.jpg[/url]) ([url]http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=28873[/url])

When introduced all were in plain green, with disc indicators and nose connector doors, though later yellow warning panels were applied.

Poor reliability led to a limited scheme to re-engine some members of the class, designated Class 29.

D6123 was the first to receive the new Paxman engine, but the front end was not modified and it retained its disc headcode indicators.

([url]http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/18/thumb_28871.jpg[/url]) ([url]http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=28871[/url])

The other 19 converted locomotives received headcode boxes and some also were repainted into BR Blue livery.  There is some variations, with old or new style numbers and differing positions of the BR totem.

([url]http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/18/thumb_28872.jpg[/url]) ([url]http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=28872[/url])

(Thanks to Graham Wareham for the above two photos)

The re-engined locomotives were far more reliable and worked fairly successfully from Glasgow to Fort William and Oban, and across central Scotland via Perth and Aberdeen to Inverness.

However, in the early 1970s they were declared non-standard and all were withdrawn by the end of 1971.  None are preserved.

To reach the production threshold we need to get to 1200 orders for model 1, then a further 900 for model 2 - obviously whether the 21 or 29 comes first depends on which gets the most interest!

At the moment, as ever, we require no money just a serious expression of interest; we are hoping to have reached at least 1200 orders by Xmas so that work can begin in the New Year.

Since all the tooling will be paid for and funding is guaranteed, we are assured that our models would progress rapidly through the production cycle.

This model has been selected because we know Dapol can tool the characteristic face very well (it's the same, virtually, as their excellent Class 22) and they are producing this model in OO anyway.  If this drive is successful we are hoping the N gauge model for our supporters would come out at about the same time as the OO model. 

If it is produced, the model would be available in the standard Dapol range eventually but not for at least two years.

We also feel this model will go very well with the existing Farish Classes 24 and 25, and upcoming DJM Class 17; making small Scottish layouts very achievable.

cheers

Ben A.


Hi Ben,

See my post on the RMWeb thread, I don't think this class hauled any scheduled services over the Highland Main Line. You can however include Glasgow to Carlisle via GSWR (i.e. via Dumfries) as well as the WCML
Title: Re: Class 21 & 29 proposed by Revolution Trains
Post by: ScottyStitch on September 10, 2015, 01:53:23 PM
Youpi !!!  :bounce:

That's really good news!
But I didn't understand which liveries will be proposed.
Will the choice be limited to the three locomotives in the first post ?
- D6103 class 21, green
- D6123 class 29, blue with full yellow ends
- D6129 class 29, blue with full yellow ends and headcode boxes

My understanding is that we could also have:
- green with small yellow panels
- green with small yellow panels and headcode boxes
- green with headcode boxes (as this one: [url]http://s847.photobucket.com/user/gdaysydney/media/class29.jpg.html[/url] ([url]http://s847.photobucket.com/user/gdaysydney/media/class29.jpg.html[/url]))

Thanks by advance for the clarification.


The identities and liveries im pretty sure will be ironed out if and when the project gets the go ahead, but I'd be pretty sure the likely candidates would be all over green (21), All over green with SYWP (21), Two Tone Green with SYWP (29) as pretty much guaranteed.

I don't think any 21s made it to BR Blue? Although obviously the 29s did.
Title: Re: Class 21 & 29 proposed by Revolution Trains
Post by: Ben A on September 10, 2015, 01:56:15 PM

Hello all,

We haven't decided liveries yet - though there are not that many:  peliminary research suggests the 21s received plain green or green with yellow panel, the 29s two tone green with panel, two tone green with full yellow ends and blue.  There are some oddities with positioning of BR totem and number styles on the blue versions.

The oddity is D6123 which although converted from 21 to 29 did not receive the headcode box, but did receive he roof and grille modifications. Modular tooling would allow us to mix and match bodies and ends to produce this.

Scotty - I believe the last 20 were built for the Scottish region directly and had tablet catchers in recesses.    If there is significantly higher interest than the 1200 minimum then it may be viable to produce this variant; however TPM produces an excellent etched version which includes a template for the cut out and this is not too hard a job.

Thanks also for the map notes.  I will amend asap.

Railsquid - The 321 in NSE is surely a sectorisation era model, unless you are specifying before 1989... there are certainly plenty of shots of them alongside blue stock.

PLD - When I spoke to Dapol about this they said they had no plans to do this model in N as the numbers didn't stack up.  On that basis I felt we could try to make it happen - especially as we can take advantage of the OO research and also ensure that N isn't being left behind with this model and there was a long and persuasive thread on this forum...

Stu - totally sympathise.  Very few of us have unlimited funds and with that in mind Mike and I have deliberately avoided talking about too many new items, and we also tried to pick two items that would not compete with each other, at least not directly.

Naturally neither this nor the 320/321 will be for everyone but please, as with the Pendolino and the tanks, spread the word to those who are not online and let's see if we can maintain the inertia generated so far with the Pendolino and TEA.

cheers

Ben A.
Title: Re: Class 21 & 29 proposed by Revolution Trains
Post by: Newportnobby on September 10, 2015, 02:43:02 PM
I'd be in for a green SYP class 21 :claphappy:
(Must be an Eastern region numbered one)
Title: Re: Class 21 & 29 proposed by Revolution Trains
Post by: NeMo on September 10, 2015, 03:27:42 PM
let's see if we can maintain the inertia generated so far with the Pendolino and TEA.

I hope you mean momentum! Inertia is resistance to movement; momentum is (sort of) the opposite, the tendency of a moving heavy object to resist being slowed down.

More constructively perhaps, two interesting announcements over the last couple days. Well done to all involved, and good luck in the future.

Cheers, NeMo
Title: Re: Class 21 & 29 proposed by Revolution Trains
Post by: ScottyStitch on September 10, 2015, 03:49:43 PM
let's see if we can maintain the inertia generated so far with the Pendolino and TEA.


I hope you mean momentum! Inertia is resistance to movement; momentum is (sort of) the opposite, the tendency of a moving heavy object to resist being slowed down.

More constructively perhaps, two interesting announcements over the last couple days. Well done to all involved, and good luck in the future.

Cheers, NeMo


I think he got it right, NeMo, the definition of Inertia is actually:

".......the resistance of any physical object to any change in its state of motion including changes to its speed and direction or the state of rest. It is the tendency of objects to keep moving in a straight line at constant velocity."

(from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inertia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inertia))

and:

Newton's first law of motion states that "An object at rest stays at rest and an object in motion stays in motion with the same speed and in the same direction unless acted upon by an unbalanced force." Objects tend to "keep on doing what they're doing." In fact, it is the natural tendency of objects to resist changes in their state of motion. This tendency to resist changes in their state of motion is described as inertia.

(from http://www.physicsclassroom.com/class/newtlaws/Lesson-1/Inertia-and-Mass (http://www.physicsclassroom.com/class/newtlaws/Lesson-1/Inertia-and-Mass))



 :thumbsup:

Happy modelling.
 
Title: Re: Class 21 & 29 proposed by Revolution Trains
Post by: railsquid on September 10, 2015, 04:04:28 PM
Railsquid - The 321 in NSE is surely a sectorisation era model, unless you are specifying before 1989... there are certainly plenty of shots of them alongside blue stock.
Yup, it is indeed, just saying that purely personally it's a class which evidently appeared not long after I stopped hanging around with a notebook at Birmingham New Street, and in the intervening decades spent largely outside the UK I don't recall travelling on the WCML or anywhere else these might run, and unfortunately it fails to ignite any more passion than "hmm, looks like one of them new-fangled Turbostar thingies but with a pantograph" ;). So if I were to go for one, it would would have to be in NSE as I don't hold with these post-privatisation liveries especially if they involve dotted patterns, but will have to Think About It™. Definitely up for a 21/29 though.
Title: Re: Class 21 & 29 proposed by Revolution Trains
Post by: 60156 Great Central on September 10, 2015, 04:25:40 PM
Will be keeping a beady eye on your website for these to pop up :D
Title: Re: Class 21 & 29 proposed by Revolution Trains
Post by: Portpatrick on September 10, 2015, 05:17:22 PM
let's see if we can maintain the inertia generated so far with the Pendolino and TEA.


I hope you mean momentum! Inertia is resistance to movement; momentum is (sort of) the opposite, the tendency of a moving heavy object to resist being slowed down.

More constructively perhaps, two interesting announcements over the last couple days. Well done to all involved, and good luck in the future.

Cheers, NeMo

Goodness, my O and A level physics is a very long time ago.


I think he got it right, NeMo, the definition of Inertia is actually:

".......the resistance of any physical object to any change in its state of motion including changes to its speed and direction or the state of rest. It is the tendency of objects to keep moving in a straight line at constant velocity."

(from [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inertia[/url] ([url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inertia[/url]))

and:

Newton's first law of motion states that "An object at rest stays at rest and an object in motion stays in motion with the same speed and in the same direction unless acted upon by an unbalanced force." Objects tend to "keep on doing what they're doing." In fact, it is the natural tendency of objects to resist changes in their state of motion. This tendency to resist changes in their state of motion is described as inertia.

(from [url]http://www.physicsclassroom.com/class/newtlaws/Lesson-1/Inertia-and-Mass[/url] ([url]http://www.physicsclassroom.com/class/newtlaws/Lesson-1/Inertia-and-Mass[/url]))



 :thumbsup:

Happy modelling.
Title: Re: Class 21 & 29 proposed by Revolution Trains
Post by: NeMo on September 10, 2015, 06:27:40 PM
I think he got it right, NeMo, the definition of Inertia is actually:

Inertia as a noun, according to my dictionary (and common usage in business) means "the tendency to do nothing or remain unchanged", hence my comment above. Inertia is something project managers want to avoid. Momentum is used when something keeps moving, and things speed up as more and more people get involved or more resources are acquired.

FYI, I'm a physics teacher. So we can discuss their technical usage via personal messages if you want. But in short, inertia is describes happens when something doesn't have a force acting on it, in other words, the forces are all balanced. No acceleration and no deceleration, and of course no changes in shape or direction. Such an object may be moving (with constant velocity) or not moving, it makes no odds. Momentum is a specific property calculated by multiplying mass by velocity. It doesn't really tell you about whether the object is speeding up or slowing down because you can calculate it only for a particular instant in time.

My apologies if making a quip about the use of the word "inertia" annoyed anyone, that wasn't the purpose, and as I said, well done to those directly involved.

Cheers, NeMo
Title: Re: Class 21 & 29 proposed by Revolution Trains
Post by: Izzy on September 10, 2015, 07:50:06 PM

I believe I am correct in saying that the first conversion/re-engine 21 to 29, D6123, was carried out a Paxman's Britannia works in Colchester, located behind the platform at St Boltophs/Colchester town station (it was rail served), all subsequent conversions being carried out elsewhere (the makers I think) after proving to be a success. This may account for the lack of headcode boxes since it was a one off trial at the time with the roof and grille amendments being part of the re-engine work.

Izzy
Title: Re: Class 21 & 29 proposed by Revolution Trains
Post by: Ben A on September 10, 2015, 08:00:28 PM

Hi Izzy,

I think you're right.  While researching these models I found this page, which appears to have a photo of D6123 loco being fitted with a Paxman Ventura engine in 1963 (about 2/3 way down):

http://www.paxmanhistory.org.uk/paxrailt.htm (http://www.paxmanhistory.org.uk/paxrailt.htm)

cheers

Ben A.
Title: Re: Class 21 & 29 proposed by Revolution Trains
Post by: Rabbitaway on September 10, 2015, 08:51:48 PM
Ben

Great news on the 21/29

I will put my name down for one and take either the 21 or 29, whichever hits the 1200 first

Will there be an option in the crowd funding to confirm order for either or to help meet the 1200 target

Thanks
Title: Re: Class 21 & 29 proposed by Revolution Trains
Post by: red_death on September 11, 2015, 01:34:42 AM
Hi folks

Expressions of interest page now available on our website here: http://www.revolutiontrains.com/class-2129/class-2129-expressions-of-interest/ (http://www.revolutiontrains.com/class-2129/class-2129-expressions-of-interest/)

Cheers, Mike
Title: Re: Class 21 & 29 proposed by Revolution Trains
Post by: railsquid on September 11, 2015, 01:55:46 AM
Interest expressed.
Title: Re: Class 21 & 29 proposed by Revolution Trains
Post by: carderrail on September 11, 2015, 05:59:20 AM

I don't think any 21s made it to BR Blue? Although obviously the 29s did.

Class 21 D6109 was painted in BR Blue not long before withdrawal.

There are a few threads about on various forums and a few photos are around, from what I have found it was not suitable for a full Class 29 upgrade with the Paxman engine but received a reconditioned MAN engine, it did find itself repainted.

Tony
Title: Re: Class 21 & 29 proposed by Revolution Trains
Post by: ScottyStitch on September 11, 2015, 07:02:33 AM

I don't think any 21s made it to BR Blue? Although obviously the 29s did.

Class 21 D6109 was painted in BR Blue not long before withdrawal.

There are a few threads about on various forums and a few photos are around, from what I have found it was not suitable for a full Class 29 upgrade with the Paxman engine but received a reconditioned MAN engine, it did find itself repainted.

Tony

Thanks Tony, happy to be corrected.
Title: Re: Class 21 & 29 proposed by Revolution Trains
Post by: Ben A on September 11, 2015, 07:54:56 AM

I don't think any 21s made it to BR Blue? Although obviously the 29s did.

Class 21 D6109 was painted in BR Blue not long before withdrawal.

There are a few threads about on various forums and a few photos are around, from what I have found it was not suitable for a full Class 29 upgrade with the Paxman engine but received a reconditioned MAN engine, it did find itself repainted.

Tony

Annoyingly D6109 appears to have had the front end modifiations done before they realised it wasn't suitable for conversion, so the front end has the headcode box and looks like a 29, even though the engine was not changed.

I suspect the bodyside grilles and roof details would have been left as they were, since the engine was not changed, but I have not confirmed this.

cheers

Ben A.
Title: Re: Class 21 & 29 proposed by Revolution Trains
Post by: ScottyStitch on September 11, 2015, 08:01:13 AM

I don't think any 21s made it to BR Blue? Although obviously the 29s did.

Class 21 D6109 was painted in BR Blue not long before withdrawal.

There are a few threads about on various forums and a few photos are around, from what I have found it was not suitable for a full Class 29 upgrade with the Paxman engine but received a reconditioned MAN engine, it did find itself repainted.

Tony

Annoyingly D6109 appears to have had the front end modifiations done before they realised it wasn't suitable for conversion, so the front end has the headcode box and looks like a 29, even though the engine was not changed.

I suspect the bodyside grilles and roof details would have been left as they were, since the engine was not changed, but I have not confirmed this.

cheers

Ben A.

I'm
Pretty sure all that is correct.
Title: Re: Class 21 & 29 proposed by Revolution Trains
Post by: Newportnobby on September 11, 2015, 11:31:12 AM
Interest expressed.

Ditto :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Class 21 & 29 proposed by Revolution Trains
Post by: 60156 Great Central on September 11, 2015, 11:38:47 AM
Interest Expressed, should I receive an email confirming this?
Title: Re: Class 21 & 29 proposed by Revolution Trains
Post by: Newportnobby on September 11, 2015, 11:49:53 AM
Interest Expressed, should I receive an email confirming this?

The site should have stated your interest has been received. To my knowledge you will only be contacted when the success/failure to hit the target is known.
Title: Re: Class 21 & 29 proposed by Revolution Trains
Post by: 60156 Great Central on September 11, 2015, 11:53:02 AM
Ahh right thank you NewportNobby :) The site did indeed say that it had been received well now to waiting with much excitement to one of each Class 21 in all over green and a 29 in two tone green small yellow panel  :NGaugersRule:
Title: Re: Class 21 & 29 proposed by Revolution Trains
Post by: Portpatrick on September 11, 2015, 12:21:54 PM
Ahh right thank you NewportNobby :) The site did indeed say that it had been received well now to waiting with much excitement to one of each Class 21 in all over green and a 29 in two tone green small yellow panel  :NGaugersRule:

Moi aussi 60156.  I have logged identical interest on site
Title: Re: Class 21 & 29 proposed by Revolution Trains
Post by: Rabbitaway on September 11, 2015, 03:47:02 PM
Ben,  Mike

I have expressed interest

Thanks
Title: Re: Class 21 & 29 proposed by Revolution Trains
Post by: railsquid on September 11, 2015, 04:58:24 PM
Slightly OT, but by freaky coincidence, earlier today I bought an N-gauge RTR model of an electric locomotive built by NBL. Not the class you might imagine, however (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=19073.msg331309#msg331309). Hopefully a good omen for the project though  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Class 21 & 29 proposed by Revolution Trains
Post by: Arrachogaidh on September 12, 2015, 05:09:13 PM
Hi folks

Expressions of interest page now available on our website here: [url]http://www.revolutiontrains.com/class-2129/class-2129-expressions-of-interest/[/url] ([url]http://www.revolutiontrains.com/class-2129/class-2129-expressions-of-interest/[/url])

Cheers, Mike


Woo Hoo

I am interested in 2 x 21 and 2 x 29   Normally went in pairs for obvious reasons....................
Title: Re: Class 21 & 29 proposed by Revolution Trains
Post by: red_death on September 12, 2015, 06:36:22 PM
Hi folks

Thanks for the interest so far - if you are at all interested please remember to express interest on our website!

Cheers Mike
Title: Re: Class 21 & 29 proposed by Revolution Trains
Post by: EtchedPixels on September 12, 2015, 09:55:36 PM
Definitely interested but one thing to watch Ben is the drawings. I spent some time filing and cutting corrections into a Worsley class 21 etch ready to build before time and real life intervened. Just about every drawing of the class 21 and class 29 I have seen has serious errors on the roof (notably around the tank fillers: left of steps one side, right the other with another bit to the left of the steps)

I've even seen magazine articles with a drawing next to a picture that shows the drawing is bogus !


There are some other interesting livery oddities too -eg  some received overhead warning flashes.

Title: Re: Class 21 & 29 proposed by Revolution Trains
Post by: ohlavache on September 13, 2015, 05:58:01 PM
Done !
After long hesitation, I succumbed.
I took both 1 class 21 in plain green and 1 class 29 in BR blue.
Initially, I was supposed to take only one...  :hmmm:
Title: Re: Class 21 & 29 proposed by Revolution Trains
Post by: Ben A on September 13, 2015, 07:48:48 PM
Definitely interested but one thing to watch Ben is the drawings. I spent some time filing and cutting corrections into a Worsley class 21 etch ready to build before time and real life intervened. Just about every drawing of the class 21 and class 29 I have seen has serious errors on the roof (notably around the tank fillers: left of steps one side, right the other with another bit to the left of the steps)

I've even seen magazine articles with a drawing next to a picture that shows the drawing is bogus !

Thanks for that - I am aware of the bodyside grille differences but not all the alterations to the roof.

We are a long way off of course, but if enough people express a firm interest and we decide to go for it we will, as with the Pendolino and TEA, publish CAD drawings here for anyone to offer their comments and assistance - all of which gratefully received and will hopefully make for a better model.

cheers

Ben A.
Title: Re: Class 21 & 29 proposed by Revolution Trains
Post by: Ben A on September 22, 2015, 09:06:56 AM

Hello all,

Thanks to those who've shared this info or are continuing to spread the word.

As with the Pendolino which is now in tooling thanks to the fantastic support we have received, this model can only happen if we get the word out.  The NGF and other internet chatgroups or forums have a part to play, as does the press (so far I have seen these projects mentioned in Model Rail, the Hornby magazine and Rail Express) but there will be plenty of people who've missed it.

If you're a member of a club, or have friends in the hobby, and you think they'd be interested in this model please let them know.  I have prepared a downloadable A4 poster that can be printed out and fixed to a clubroom wall, or attached to emails or whatever.

(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/17/thumb_29587.jpg) (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=29587)

Similarly, if you're attending a show and would like some of our leaflets to hand out please PM me.

cheers

Ben A.
Title: Re: Class 21 & 29 proposed by Revolution Trains
Post by: Ben A on September 22, 2015, 09:10:30 AM

Hello all,

In case it helps, here is the same poster as a downloadable PDF file.

(Sorry, but you are not allowed to access the gallery)

cheers

Ben A.
Title: Re: Class 21 & 29 proposed by Revolution Trains
Post by: ScottyStitch on September 22, 2015, 09:34:45 AM
Hi Ben, great posters!

As an aside, have you seen the piece in this month's Model Rail? They have reported on the two new proposals, but unfortunately they have stated that both would be made by Rapido. You might want to correct them?

All the best

Scott
Title: Re: Class 21 & 29 proposed by Revolution Trains
Post by: Ben A on September 22, 2015, 10:42:09 AM

Hi Scott,

Yes, I told them about it.  Annoying but not much they can do now. 

On our website it's pretty obvious who's doing what, luckily.

cheers

Ben A.
Title: Re: Class 21 & 29 proposed by Revolution Trains
Post by: robert shrives on September 24, 2015, 09:17:07 PM
Hi ,
Added two flyers into a junkmail and an energy bill evelope today - well you never know
Robert
Title: Re: Class 21 & 29 proposed by Revolution Trains
Post by: Arrachogaidh on October 04, 2015, 11:35:57 AM
Here is a prototype for you.....

1968   - 3-coach special for Shiek Zaid of Abu Dhabi’s shooting party (Restaurant Car & Sleeping Car & Brake) arrives at Waverley from Bonar Bridge with D6129. Immaculate D1971 (Class 47) takes the train overnight to London.
Title: Re: Class 21 & 29 proposed by Revolution Trains
Post by: red_death on November 06, 2015, 04:30:25 PM
I meant to post this at the same time as the 320/321 update but I got interrupted!  We thought that it would be helpful to give people an update on where we are at with the 21/29 project.

We are still picking up expressions of interest and clearly we will continue to possibly ad infinitum, but we feel that we need to set a deadline to a. help focus minds and b. to allow us to progress projects in reasonable timescales (or make the difficult decision that they can't go ahead).

So we have decided on a deadline for expressions of interest of 31 January 2016.  This gives people time to talk to us at Warley, hopefully see about the project in the next NGS Journal (as well as the coverage we have already had in various commercial magazines) and see how we are progressing with the Pendolino and TEA.

The current situation is we are just below 25% of the level of interest that we would need to realistically go ahead with production of one of either the 21 or 29 (and that we are a significant distance from being able to produce both classes). The most popular choice by some distance has been a blue class 29!

I think that it is fair to say that Ben and I are a little surprised that there has not been more interest as perceived wisdom is that transition era models will go like hot cakes! The prototype may have only lasted for a relatively short period, but it is an important model for that period that got across surprising amounts of the Eastern Region and Scotland.

We clearly need more people to express interest if we are to make this happen - please don't rely on others to express interest or delay expressing your interest.  There is no benefit to waiting to express your interest - at this stage we are only after expressions of interest not firm commitments of cash!

If you are interested in a 21 and/or 29 then please let us know by filling in the short form here:  http://www.revolutiontrains.com/class-2129/class-2129-expressions-of-interest/ (http://www.revolutiontrains.com/class-2129/class-2129-expressions-of-interest/)

Thanks

Mike
Title: Re: Class 21 & 29 proposed by Revolution Trains
Post by: Roy L S on November 07, 2015, 03:31:43 PM
Hi Mike

I expressed an interest in one of each with a mind to transfer to two of either depending on how it progressed.

I don't think there can be any doubt that steam/diesel transition is far and away the most popular and for me, like others on this forum the prototype would be most welcome.

That said personally I feel there are a number of factors that may be restricting it's wider appeal.

I did originally in this post question whether the choice of manufacturer may have been a factor? On reflection how I worded it wasn't especially constructive hence the edit (for those who notice). What is undoubted is that Dapol have produced some truly excellent (in fact ground breaking) British N gauge diesel models. There have have been problems with blown PCBs that have perhaps unfairly tarnished their reputation. Is this a factor? Would more details of the internal spec of the model encourage people on board (e.g. does it have coreless motor, better spec PCB?).

There is doubtless an appeal to many N Gauge Scottish transition period modellers like me but are there yet enough "Rule 1" purchasers who are aware of the proposal, those who just like a nice quirky model to make up the required balance of people? I think raising the "Rule 1" appeal is therefore going to be the challenge. I guess it must be really hard to reach all the potential purchasers (and I know how much you and Ben put into trying). Visibility at Warley may help push it along and downloadable flyers for those converts like me to print ourselves and leave at shows we attend. I will certainly "plug" it at my Club amongst the N modellers there.

Finally, would there be any advantage to consolidating into the Class 29 alone as far as any next steps are concerned to provide more clarity??

I truly hope it does garner sufficient support to proceed as I really do want to see them running on my layout!

Regards

Roy
Title: Re: Class 21 & 29 proposed by Revolution Trains
Post by: Newportnobby on November 07, 2015, 09:00:37 PM
My expression of interest was based on an ER class 21 so I wouldn't like to be restricted to a class 29 only. If that happened I would have to withdraw.
Title: Re: Class 21 & 29 proposed by Revolution Trains
Post by: Ben A on November 07, 2015, 09:27:09 PM

Hello all,

This is still relatively uncharted territory for all of us, and to some extent Mike and I are making it up as we go along.

The Pendolino started with Kickstarter, which failed, but was rescued because Rapido agreed to "plan B" and in doing so proved the possibilities of the crowd-funded production model.

Mike and I felt that the 10% kickstarter commission coupled with their time limits, meant our own website might be a more effective platform, so we created one.

Our first "new" model was the TEA which is now close to production, and of course the Pendolino is making great progress too.  Being a far more complex model, it has not surprisingly taken longer.

The 21/9 was a direct response to the well reasoned discussion on this forum, coupled with the happy coincidence of Dapol having already drawn up the CADs in 4mm, but feeling N was too much of an investment risk.

Roy:  I take your point about Dapol, but their Class 22 is very similar (albeit significantly shorter!) than the 21/9 and is the obvious starting point.  I have a 22 and its mechanism is smooth and reliable, and in my view as reliable and well made as anything by any other manufacturer.  Put simply, I would not have put this forward as a plan if I was not confident.

NewportNobby: We aren't at the point of having to ask people to select one or the other, but if we did then yes, I anticipate that some people would wish to withdraw and that's fair enough, and at the moment the 29 is in the lead.

But I would urge those who want a 21 to at least think about supporting the 29 for this reason: getting a 29 produced would make a 21 far more likely in the near future since, in effect, it's just a new bodyshell.  The glazing and mechanism is largely the same.

On that basis could you justify having a green 29 as a "placeholder" on your layout pending the more accurate model? 

At very least, an RTR 29 would also be easier to convert to a 21 than trying to build an all-etched model, and it may be that some enterprising kit manufacturer decides to produce "drop on" resin 21 bodyshells that use the 29 glazing, chassis etc.

Of course, if you don't wish to have a 29 under any circumstances then I totally respect your decision and so be it!

cheers

Ben A.
Title: Re: Class 21 & 29 proposed by Revolution Trains
Post by: Newportnobby on November 07, 2015, 09:37:33 PM
Sorry, Ben, but being a pensioner with limited funds I wouldn't be able to consider a class 29 against a faint possibility a class 21 would come to fruition at some point. I believe I would be able to sell on the class 29 and probably for what I paid for it, but with no 'guarantee' of a 21 appearing it's just not possible :(
Title: Re: Class 21 & 29 proposed by Revolution Trains
Post by: Portpatrick on November 07, 2015, 09:48:23 PM
I would most certainly prefer the 21 if there were only one initially.  And said as much in my expression of interest.  I would actually go for one of each.  But would buy one 29 if that was the only option, and it was green with small panel.  Sadly though I would be out if it only came in blue.  Wrong era!
Title: Re: Class 21 & 29 proposed by Revolution Trains
Post by: Roy L S on November 07, 2015, 11:26:54 PM

Hello all,

This is still relatively uncharted territory for all of us, and to some extent Mike and I are making it up as we go along.

The Pendolino started with Kickstarter, which failed, but was rescued because Rapido agreed to "plan B" and in doing so proved the possibilities of the crowd-funded production model.

Mike and I felt that the 10% kickstarter commission coupled with their time limits, meant our own website might be a more effective platform, so we created one.

Our first "new" model was the TEA which is now close to production, and of course the Pendolino is making great progress too.  Being a far more complex model, it has not surprisingly taken longer.

The 21/9 was a direct response to the well reasoned discussion on this forum, coupled with the happy coincidence of Dapol having already drawn up the CADs in 4mm, but feeling N was too much of an investment risk.

Roy:  I take your point about Dapol, but their Class 22 is very similar (albeit significantly shorter!) than the 21/9 and is the obvious starting point.  I have a 22 and its mechanism is smooth and reliable, and in my view as reliable and well made as anything by any other manufacturer.  Put simply, I would not have put this forward as a plan if I was not confident.

NewportNobby: We aren't at the point of having to ask people to select one or the other, but if we did then yes, I anticipate that some people would wish to withdraw and that's fair enough, and at the moment the 29 is in the lead.

But I would urge those who want a 21 to at least think about supporting the 29 for this reason: getting a 29 produced would make a 21 far more likely in the near future since, in effect, it's just a new bodyshell.  The glazing and mechanism is largely the same.

On that basis could you justify having a green 29 as a "placeholder" on your layout pending the more accurate model? 

At very least, an RTR 29 would also be easier to convert to a 21 than trying to build an all-etched model, and it may be that some enterprising kit manufacturer decides to produce "drop on" resin 21 bodyshells that use the 29 glazing, chassis etc.

Of course, if you don't wish to have a 29 under any circumstances then I totally respect your decision and so be it!

cheers

Ben A.

Hi Ben

I do appreciate that everything you do is without precedent and as such there will be both surprises and disappointments. For me personally I would be disappointed if this project does not proceed but realistically I can see that there is a lot of ground to cover and one must be prepared to accept that not all proposals will get past the threshold in the same way as is true for kickstarter projects.

I think your platform for these proposals is both innovative and refreshing and I hope that neither of you is disillusioned if projects do not always hit the necessary "critical mass" needed. That you have already got two successful projects under way speaks volumes for the validity of the model and your own knowledge and commitment (all done as an extra to your day jobs).

There are plenty of other potential projects, some already suggested and others not and I have no doubt that at least some will find the support needed to be produced.

I will keep faith with this project but cannot commit to more than two locos. I hope that regardless of success or otherwise I will have the opportunity to support future ventures.

Regards

Roy
Title: Re: Class 21 & 29 proposed by Revolution Trains
Post by: Ben A on November 07, 2015, 11:31:39 PM
I would most certainly prefer the 21 if there were only one initially.  And said as much in my expression of interest.  I would actually go for one of each.  But would buy one 29 if that was the only option, and it was green with small panel.  Sadly though I would be out if it only came in blue.  Wrong era!

Hi there,

If the 29 alone goes ahead then it would certainly be in at least three liveries - two tone green with small panel, two tone green with full yellow end and blue.  And there would also, probably, be variations within these around positioning of the numbers/BR logos etc, but we won't look at exact livery options unless we go to production.

cheers

Ben A.
Title: Re: Class 21 & 29 proposed by Revolution Trains
Post by: railsquid on November 08, 2015, 02:30:10 AM
I'd like to support one of these projects on general principle, and so far this has been the closest which fits my tastes. Which are fortunately not too particular in terms of era or location, but it has to be transition/modernisation ~ sectorisation (and something I at least recognise), so blue would be most excellent, green OK at a pinch.
Title: Re: Class 21 & 29 proposed by Revolution Trains
Post by: Arrachogaidh on November 08, 2015, 01:20:50 PM


Hi there,

If the 29 alone goes ahead then it would certainly be in at least three liveries - two tone green with small panel, two tone green with full yellow end and blue.  And there would also, probably, be variations within these around positioning of the numbers/BR logos etc, but we won't look at exact livery options unless we go to production.

cheers

Ben A.

That is great news Ben. When Red said it'd be blue I was disheartened. For me two-tone green is a must.

Cheers
Title: Re: Class 21 & 29 proposed by Revolution Trains
Post by: red_death on November 08, 2015, 02:06:30 PM
Folks

I didn't say we would only be producing a blue 29 - I said it had been the most popular choice to date (very different things!).

At the moment we need an awful lot more interest to make the project viable and as Ben says we would produce at least the livery variants mentioned.

Thanks for the kind comments.  We have both accepted that the very nature of going for niche projects is always going to mean that inevitably we will come up against a project that just isn't viable - we just hope it isn't this!

Cheers, Mike
Title: Re: Class 21 & 29 proposed by Revolution Trains
Post by: ScottyStitch on November 09, 2015, 12:33:58 PM
Folks

I didn't say we would only be producing a blue 29 - I said it had been the most popular choice to date (very different things!).

At the moment we need an awful lot more interest to make the project viable and as Ben says we would produce at least the livery variants mentioned.

Thanks for the kind comments.  We have both accepted that the very nature of going for niche projects is always going to mean that inevitably we will come up against a project that just isn't viable - we just hope it isn't this!

Cheers, Mike

On a personal level the lack of interest is very disappointing, especially when I recall the 21/29 scoring highly in last years RM wish list poll. Unfortunately, if this project doesn't make its target, Dapol are unlikely to
Produce the model in N as well. Pretty much the last piece of the Scottish region transition era.....but I guess, if there's no demand, there's no demand.
Title: Re: Class 21 & 29 proposed by Revolution Trains
Post by: ScottyStitch on November 09, 2015, 12:35:52 PM
I wonder if CJM would make a couple on a commission basis?
Title: Re: Class 21 & 29 proposed by Revolution Trains
Post by: Roy L S on November 09, 2015, 05:12:04 PM
I wonder if CJM would make a couple on a commission basis?

I'm not sure that's how CJM work, I think their thing is low volume high quality models made for general release at prices in the £500 bracket.

Surely if the Dapol 22 was considered viable this should be too? Warley hasn't happened yet, so hopefully potential there and there are still almost three months to go to the deadline so a bit premature to throw in the towel hopefully.

Just a need to reach the those modellers who could potentially make up the balance needed. I'm sure they are out there.

Regards

Roy
Title: Re: Class 21 & 29 proposed by Revolution Trains
Post by: red_death on November 09, 2015, 05:31:34 PM
Roy is correct - we shouldn't abandon all hope (Ben and I certainly aren't), but we wanted people to be aware of the scale of the challenge to make this happen.

Part of the reason that we were prepared to take this on was precisely because Dapol said they had no intention of doing it in N (and we agree that if the 22 could be viable then I would have thought the 21/29 was even more viable - of course we don't know how well the 22 has sold!).

Cheers, Mike
Title: Re: Class 21 & 29 proposed by Revolution Trains
Post by: Newportnobby on November 09, 2015, 09:28:40 PM
Without starting a range war or providing ammo for some folks to fire, maybe it just shows the popularity of diesel hydraulic v diesel electric or perhaps just the Western Region flavour of the class 22 :hmmm:
However, Kernow and others have been offering Dapol diesel hydraulics at 'bargain' prices so maybe they haven't sold as well as expected :-\
Title: Re: Class 21 & 29 proposed by Revolution Trains
Post by: scruff on November 09, 2015, 10:02:53 PM
I can't help but think the deadline of 31st January is a bit early, after all, Modelrail Scotland is in February and both the 21/29 and 320/321 have a Scottish slant to them.. If you can see where my train of thought is going??

Cheers
Mark
Title: Re: Class 21 & 29 proposed by Revolution Trains
Post by: red_death on November 09, 2015, 10:23:39 PM
Mark

The problem is that we can always find a reason to delay a deadline eg Ally Pally in March/April for the 321 or 21 but we have to be realistic about these things.  What we don't want to happen is to leave projects open for lengthy periods as it means no development happens, projects take ever longer time periods and the longer we leave them open the more risky it becomes that people's interests will have changed all the while losing momentum and focus.

The projects will have been open for 4.5 months once we close the expressions of interest which is reasonable compared to the 2 months of the Pendolino kickstarter. Whilst we felt that was too short there is clearly a happy medium.

Cheers, Mike
Title: Re: Class 21 & 29 proposed by Revolution Trains
Post by: acko22 on November 09, 2015, 10:40:09 PM
Mike,

You beat me to it!!! Personally the 21/29 isn't for me as its the wrong era / area for me although for my layout I am using my own version of rule 1 (if one still exists then I can run it, as some people would have said you would never see a western on a freight after BR withdrew them and GBRF used one!)

But I think out of all of it should the 21/29 come to fruition or not (I hope its the first) then this will prove a validation for Mike, Ben and well in reality all of us too!
Like Mike and Ben have eluded to this allows them to concentrate on the a small set list and ensuring that it isn't just a pipe dream and make it a reality just like they have done with the Pendolino.

Plus should the 21/29 not make the grade then is there anything stopping Mike and Ben from having another crack with any model later on if there proves to be an upsurge in interest at a later date.

I think Warley will be an interesting development, with the first samples of the Pendolino injection moulded bodies been there, I personally think this will spark a hell of a lot of interest and encourage those who didn't feel comfortable going with a new comer to modelling (I know Mike and Ben are no new comers to modelling, more revolution as a company).

So I think while the debate when to cut things off is always going to be difficult (I know this debate was had for the Pendolino project this time last year), I think Warley will be the tipping point for this project.

Personally like I say not for me but I actually really do want it to succeed.
Title: Re: Class 21 & 29 proposed by Revolution Trains
Post by: scruff on November 09, 2015, 11:02:13 PM
Thanks Mike, I totally see where you are coming from...

Besides.. that means the sooner I get my mitts on my EMU's!  :thumbsup:

Cheers
mark
Title: Re: Class 21 & 29 proposed by Revolution Trains
Post by: Ben A on November 09, 2015, 11:25:28 PM

Hi Mark,

Actually you;'re right about Model Rail Scotland.  We did chat about this but unfortunately I don't think either of us is going to be there to actively "push" the model and so in some ways it is a moot point.

AS Mike says, we can always find reasons to put off a deadline but I think we have to be a little ruthless here - if a model doesn't fly, it doesn't fly and at least it's just cost us a few quid for leaflets and a bit of time, rather than thousands in unwanted tooling!

Having said that, I am struggling to believe there aren't enough modellers out there who already have or like the idea of a small Scottish layout in the 60s to shift 1200 of these models!  I am hoping that at Warley we will reach a lot of people who won't know about the project, and with the TEAs and Pendolinos showing clear progress perhaps they will be a little more inclined to support the scheme.

But I do also think there is a significant proportion of the market that just doesn't "get" it, and thinks they'll be able to have a look at these when they come out and then pick one up.  They might, of course, but only off ebay!

cheers

Ben A.
Title: Re: Class 21 & 29 proposed by Revolution Trains
Post by: JasonBz on November 09, 2015, 11:54:35 PM
I dont know if it had been brought up in this thread, or others, but there has always seemed to be the idea that "Scottish only" stuff doesnt sell very well - I have no idea why that may be as it is, but it is sort of received wisdom...
Title: Re: Class 21 & 29 proposed by Revolution Trains
Post by: Ben A on November 10, 2015, 02:45:25 PM
Hi Jason,

I have never heard that one before!

And it doesn't explain why the (Scottish) 320 unit is doing OK in our other project...

But maybe you're right.  Either way, we will do our best to get a few more interested at Warley and see how we go!

Earlier in the thread I uploaded a printable A4 poster.  Here is an updated version with the deadline::

(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/13/thumb_31708.jpg) (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=31708)

And this is a pdf which will probably print better:

(Sorry, but you are not allowed to access the gallery)

If you're a member of a Club or Society with other N Gauge modellers (or Scottish enthusiasts, come to that!) please download it and print it for others in the club to see.

cheers

Ben A.
Title: Re: Class 21 & 29 proposed by Revolution Trains
Post by: railsquid on November 10, 2015, 03:18:51 PM
Hi Jason,

I have never heard that one before!

And it doesn't explain why the (Scottish) 320 unit is doing OK in our other project...

This (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=29198.msg337031#msg337031) is the only reference I recall about Scottish locos being slow sellers.

Meanwhile here's an NBR-built loco I already own:
(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/18/thumb_28930.jpg) (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=28930)
Title: Re: Class 21 & 29 proposed by Revolution Trains
Post by: NeMo on November 10, 2015, 03:21:20 PM
Reminds me of the old adage that "overhead electrics don't sell" that everyone complains about... yet actually seems to be true (for the most part). We're told the Farish 'Desiro' didn't sell, the Dapol 86 didn't sell, and the Farish 87 is definitely the unloved stepchild of their range. So much as I'd personally love to be able to buy an EM1 DC electric or Class 81 AC electric, I don't see that happening anytime soon.

The 'Pendolino' project is, of course, the exception, and the Class 320/321 project sounds promising.

Cheers, NeMo

I dont know if it had been brought up in this thread, or others, but there has always seemed to be the idea that "Scottish only" stuff doesnt sell very well - I have no idea why that may be as it is, but it is sort of received wisdom...
Title: Re: Class 21 & 29 proposed by Revolution Trains
Post by: red_death on November 10, 2015, 03:51:46 PM
Reminds me of the old adage that "overhead electrics don't sell" that everyone complains about... yet actually seems to be true (for the most part). We're told the Farish 'Desiro' didn't sell, the Dapol 86 didn't sell, and the Farish 87 is definitely the unloved stepchild of their range. So much as I'd personally love to be able to buy an EM1 DC electric or Class 81 AC electric, I don't see that happening anytime soon.

I'd be very wary of repeating "perceived wisdom" - in many cases it just isn't true (or at least not without knowing the context).

Farish 87 - if it doesn't sell why did Farish keep releasing production runs of it?

Dapol 86 - it may not have sold as well as some others but how many of the models are still easily available? How many were produced etc.

The Desiro is pretty obvious in that lovely model though it is there isn't a huge amount to run with it! Pendolino or 321 anyone  :D

We shouldn't overplay positives, but equally I don't think that we need to be quite so tough on ourselves at times.

Cheers, Mike
Title: Re: Class 21 & 29 proposed by Revolution Trains
Post by: NeMo on November 10, 2015, 05:10:15 PM
I don't disagree Mike. Merely making the connection between what we're told about electric locos and EMUs and what we're told about Scottish prototypes. The 'Pendolino' kickstarter has perhaps revealed that the AC electric scene isn't as bleak as the manufacturers suggest, and maybe the problem was them choosing the wrong prototypes -- though surely the Dapol 86 should have been a guaranteed bestseller if people wanted AC layouts.

I do agree that the Farish 350 is a lovely model. Probably my favourite model multiple unit yet made. I'm looking forward to having a 321 to run alongside it. These two trains are the ones I go to work on, so they're definitely "Rule No. 1" purchases. Just can't decide on which livery -- NSE, Silverlink or London Midland!

As for the Class 21/29, am I correct in believing the 29s never ran out of London, and that it was only the 21s that did so?

Cheers, NeMo

Reminds me of the old adage that "overhead electrics don't sell" that everyone complains about... yet actually seems to be true (for the most part). We're told the Farish 'Desiro' didn't sell, the Dapol 86 didn't sell, and the Farish 87 is definitely the unloved stepchild of their range. So much as I'd personally love to be able to buy an EM1 DC electric or Class 81 AC electric, I don't see that happening anytime soon.

I'd be very wary of repeating "perceived wisdom" - in many cases it just isn't true (or at least not without knowing the context).

Farish 87 - if it doesn't sell why did Farish keep releasing production runs of it?

Dapol 86 - it may not have sold as well as some others but how many of the models are still easily available? How many were produced etc.

The Desiro is pretty obvious in that lovely model though it is there isn't a huge amount to run with it! Pendolino or 321 anyone  :D

We shouldn't overplay positives, but equally I don't think that we need to be quite so tough on ourselves at times.

Cheers, Mike
Title: Re: Class 21 & 29 proposed by Revolution Trains
Post by: Ben A on November 10, 2015, 05:43:02 PM

Hi NeMo,

Yes, all the locomotives started out as Class 21 (or rather, North Briitsh Type 2) when they were built.

The first ˜38 were allocated to the Easter Region and worked from Kings Cross and Liverpooll St out as far as Norwich and Peterborough.

The remainder were assigned from the start to Scotland.

By 1961 all had been moved to Scotland.

Then, in the mid 1960s, ˜20 were re-engined in an effort to improve the class's atrocious reliability.  The re-engined locos had an additional bodyside grille, different roof details and, with one exception, a four-character headcode panel.

These 20 were much improved and lasted in service until 1971.  I think they were withdrawn because they were non-standard, not because they were useless.  The remaining 21s were all withdrawn by 1967 I think.

It's annoying - if even a single 21 had lasted through to the end it would have made the choice far simpler.  Similarly, if one of either type had been preserved that would've helped.

As it is I can readily understand that if you're modelling pre-1963 then it's a 21 you want, or if you're modelling post 1967 then it's the 29.

At the moment the 29 is out in front.

What I would say is that either way the chassis is the same; and for the enthusiast (or an enterprising kit maker) converting one to the other could be as simple as a couple of brass etches and a partial respray.  Or a TPM-style resin body that simply swaps out, using the same glazing units.

Having said that, if it doesn't reach the 1200 expressions of interest but gets to, say, 400 then that could be a significant market for an enterprising kit manufacturer using a longer chassis block, resin bodyshell and bogie sideframes to convert the existing Class 22.  However, that would probably cost around £50 plus the cost of the Class 22 and still need building and painting, whereas our loco is likely to be around £100.

cheers

Ben A.
Title: Re: Class 21 & 29 proposed by Revolution Trains
Post by: ScottyStitch on November 10, 2015, 09:37:08 PM
For what it's worth, I've been very active on facebook spreading the word on a few Scottish based railway groups, namely:

Scottish Railways Group
The Official Trains of Scotland Group
Inverness Motive Power Depot Group
and Class 21/29 Appreciation Group

Also I've raised awareness on the following:
N-Gauge Layouts While Being Built Group
N-Gauge Model Railways Buy, Sell and Swap

I've also sent leaflets to Scottish and East Anglian/Cambridgeshire/etc. model clubs

It won't be for the lack of effort, that's for sure!
Title: Re: Class 21 & 29 proposed by Revolution Trains
Post by: Portpatrick on November 10, 2015, 09:55:58 PM
Good one Scotty

I guess if the end result of all this is that we do only get the 29, I would certainly have a green SYP one, but my Langley 21 on a 25/3 chassis will have to soldier on for a while.
Title: Re: Class 21 & 29 proposed by Revolution Trains
Post by: Rabbitaway on November 10, 2015, 09:57:58 PM
Ben

I have expressed interest in a 21 but more than happy to take a 29 if it is more popular

Hope the model makes the number of pladges required as this loco has always been one I would like, although a bit of a challenge at this stage

As a matter of interest how well did the old Hornby 00 model sell as this may be an indication of demand?



Title: Re: Class 21 & 29 proposed by Revolution Trains
Post by: ScottyStitch on November 10, 2015, 10:10:47 PM
Good one Scotty

I guess if the end result of all this is that we do only get the 29, I would certainly have a green SYP one, but my Langley 21 on a 25/3 chassis will have to soldier on for a while.

Alas this is where I fid my dilemma.

My existing collection of motive power revolves around my chosen period of 1962-64. 64 is the cut off due to the fact that I wanted to run Princess Coronations which weren't in service after that year. Therefore, if only the 29 is funded (if either of them at all), then this version becomes a rather far fetched 'Rule 1', since the first one was converted in '66. This is the reason I've resisted buying class 37s, as they weren't in Scotland until well after 'my' period. ditto pre-order of the new class 50.

On top of all that I also think the 21s looked much better than the 29s with their headcode boxes.

It could all well be moot and if the only the 29 is funded, then I certainly shan't be complaining because it's better than nothing.

Ramble over.....
Title: Re: Class 21 & 29 proposed by Revolution Trains
Post by: Ben A on November 10, 2015, 10:29:23 PM
Hi there,

I don't know how well the Hornby 29 has sold but it's been around for years - I think it was originally released in the late 1970s.
,
Dapol clearly think there is enough of a market as they are producing the model in OO.

They weren't sure about N but after the convincing arguments here, and because of the good job they made of the 22, because we felt Dapol were offering us a pretty good deal, we thought it was worth a shot!

Thanks to all those who are spreading the word - it's only November so we still have longer than with a full Kickstarter campaign, and I think Warley offers a great opportunity...

cheers

Ben A.
Title: Re: Class 21 & 29 proposed by Revolution Trains
Post by: JasonBz on November 10, 2015, 10:43:37 PM
The Hornby 29 was produced mid / early 70s......my mate had one  :) when I just had a Western :( at the time

I wasnt being negative when I mentioned about Scottish stuff not been over attractive, it does just seem to be historically that way... I want you to succeed :)
Title: Re: Class 21 & 29 proposed by Revolution Trains
Post by: Ben A on November 10, 2015, 10:55:34 PM

Hi Scotty,

Good and bad news.

The first Class 29 to be converted was D6123 in 1963 - see here:

http://www.paxmanhistory.org.uk/paxrailt.htm (http://www.paxmanhistory.org.uk/paxrailt.htm)

Unfortunately, while the side grille and roof changes were made, this locomotive did not receive the four character headcode panel...

cheers

Ben A.
Title: Re: Class 21 & 29 proposed by Revolution Trains
Post by: JasonBz on November 10, 2015, 11:02:55 PM
Looking at that page Ben linked to, it reminds me to ask how many a Fell would sell? I rather like it in a strange way......
Title: Re: Class 21 & 29 proposed by Revolution Trains
Post by: ScottyStitch on November 11, 2015, 10:21:15 AM

Hi Scotty,

Good and bad news.

The first Class 29 to be converted was D6123 in 1963 - see here:

[url]http://www.paxmanhistory.org.uk/paxrailt.htm[/url] ([url]http://www.paxmanhistory.org.uk/paxrailt.htm[/url])

Unfortunately, while the side grille and roof changes were made, this locomotive did not receive the four character headcode panel...

cheers

Ben A.


Yes, quite correct Ben, my mistake. I think the last wasn't completed until 66, so I'm talking rot. I'm not firing on all cylinders, clearly (rather like a Class 21)

Scotty
Title: Re: Class 21 & 29 proposed by Revolution Trains
Post by: ScottyStitch on November 11, 2015, 10:23:18 AM
Looking at that page Ben linked to, it reminds me to ask how many a Fell would sell? I rather like it in a strange way......

You're NOT getting it until I get my 21/29  :P
Title: Re: Class 21 & 29 proposed by Revolution Trains
Post by: Portpatrick on November 11, 2015, 11:45:14 AM
Looking at that page Ben linked to, it reminds me to ask how many a Fell would sell? I rather like it in a strange way......

You're NOT getting it until I get my 21/29  :P

Absolutely.  Must get our priorities right!
Title: Re: Class 21 & 29 proposed by Revolution Trains
Post by: ohlavache on December 04, 2015, 06:01:43 PM
Any update on the interest expressed so far ?
Thanks.
Title: Re: Class 21 & 29 proposed by Revolution Trains
Post by: Ben A on December 04, 2015, 06:24:32 PM

Hi there,

We tried to spread the word at Warley but it's not good, TBH.  Still less than a third of the way there to even one of the types.   Shame really but there it is.

We will hopefully have a bit of a mention in the mags post Warley, and the end of January deadline might focus a few minds, but since we aren't asking for any cash I can't see why anyone would delay.

But right now not looking good and that's a shame for those who want one - or might want one in the fuure - including me!

cheers

Ben A.
Title: Re: Class 21 & 29 proposed by Revolution Trains
Post by: Karhedron on December 07, 2015, 09:05:15 AM
We tried to spread the word at Warley but it's not good, TBH.  Still less than a third of the way there to even one of the types.   Shame really but there it is.
Disappointing and also rather surprising. The Dapol 22 seems to have sold well with repeated runs being produced. I would have thought that a version for "north of the border" would have been equally popular.  ???

Do you have a Plan B for another loco for that development slot if the 21/29 fails to generate the necessary levels of interest.
Title: Re: Class 21 & 29 proposed by Revolution Trains
Post by: ScottyStitch on December 07, 2015, 09:54:34 AM
Extremely disappointing
Title: Re: Class 21 & 29 proposed by Revolution Trains
Post by: red_death on December 07, 2015, 10:09:48 AM
Hi Matt

We have a plan B on the 21/29, but to be honest we still needed there to be significantly more interest than there has been to date to make even Plan B a possibility. Hopefully there will be a late surge as more people here about it and the impending deadline for expressions of interest.

I think that we expected it to become difficult to get support for some projects, but we really didn't expect such little interest in the 21/29.

If the 21/29 doesn't come to pass we have a few ideas about what we could do next.

Cheers, Mike
Title: Re: Class 21 & 29 proposed by Revolution Trains
Post by: acko22 on December 07, 2015, 12:12:54 PM

If the 21/29 doesn't come to pass we have a few ideas about what we could do next.


Mike,

I am sure if you and Ben ever ran out of ideas then there would be plenty of others who would gladdy give a few suggestions or lists!

 :uneasy:
Title: Re: Class 21 & 29 proposed by Revolution Trains
Post by: Arrachogaidh on December 30, 2015, 03:45:50 PM
I rather fear that the NBL Class 21/29 will, like the Class 28 Metro-Vic Co-Bo only appear on our layouts if someone can create a body and chassis in 3D print material AND have a suitable motorised chassis to recommend.

It is looking very doubtful if any project for RTR versions in N Gauge will ever get off the ground.

However if you are interested in a 21/29 get your interest registered NOW

https://www.revolutiontrains.com/class-2129/ (https://www.revolutiontrains.com/class-2129/)

Cheers,
Brian
Title: Re: Class 21 & 29 proposed by Revolution Trains
Post by: Arrachogaidh on January 06, 2016, 03:27:38 PM
BUMP

Get your expressions of interest lodged. TIME IS RUNNING OUT

 :Class31: :Class37: :Class31: :Class37: :Class31:
Title: Re: Class 21 & 29 proposed by Revolution Trains
Post by: Arrachogaidh on January 28, 2016, 12:32:01 PM

BUMP

Get your expressions of interest lodged. TIME IS RUNNING OUT

 :Class31: :Class37: :Class31: :Class37: :Class31:

Title: Re: Class 21 & 29 proposed by Revolution Trains
Post by: EtchedPixels on January 28, 2016, 01:35:03 PM
I rather fear that the NBL Class 21/29 will, like the Class 28 Metro-Vic Co-Bo only appear on our layouts if someone can create a body and chassis in 3D print material AND have a suitable motorised chassis to recommend.

Chassis for the 28 is easy - it's a Farish (Poole 31) with a class 20 bogie fitted the other end. Solved problem. That works for both the old Ian Stoate kit and the current Worsley Works etched one.

I do have a basic class 28 body shell in 3D just not had the time or reason to finish it as I have an Ian Stoate one  :angel: . Some point later this year I might be prepared to look at it again, but it's a fair bit of work to put all the detail on.

Alan
Title: Re: Class 21 & 29 proposed by Revolution Trains
Post by: ScottyStitch on February 04, 2016, 10:26:43 AM
As the original proposer for the 21/29 campaign, many thanks to those who supported and contributed to the project and this thread.

Scotty
Title: Re: Class 21 & 29 proposed by Revolution Trains
Post by: Arrachogaidh on March 02, 2016, 07:15:35 PM
Guess it's going to be some wait before I can recreate this scene.

Ah well, may have to get some lottery winnings to comission some via Worsley Works scratch  build aids.

(Sorry, but you are not allowed to access the gallery)
Title: Re: Class 21 & 29 proposed by Revolution Trains
Post by: railsquid on May 05, 2016, 03:26:03 PM
Not quite sure where to leave this, but this video: https://vimeo.com/29262675 from about 06:57 has a scene of what I've tentatively identified as D6124 pulling a passenger train through the Scottish Highlands. In case it's of any interest.
Title: Re: Class 21 & 29 proposed by Revolution Trains
Post by: Arrachogaidh on May 05, 2016, 03:41:10 PM
Excellent Squidy.

Many thanks.   :thumbsup: :beers:
Title: Re: Class 21 & 29 proposed by Revolution Trains
Post by: Ben Line 457 on May 05, 2016, 06:40:45 PM
Not quite sure where to leave this, but this video: https://vimeo.com/29262675 from about 06:57 has a scene of what I've tentatively identified as D6124 pulling a passenger train through the Scottish Highlands. In case it's of any interest.

Really excellent video, all of its really interesting, electric blue 86's, Blue Pullmans, a superb car train loaded with Cortinas and Transits etc.
I was amazed by was the high proportion (to my modern eyes at least) of First class coaches on the ECML & WCML expresses in those days.

What I'm really interested in is a number of passenger train on the Western (between about 10:30 and 11:30) where the coaches all seem to have a yellow panel in the middle of the rail blue, anu idea what that may be?
Title: Re: Class 21 & 29 proposed by Revolution Trains
Post by: robert shrives on May 05, 2016, 07:29:31 PM
Hi
the yellow square you can see was a destination panel that could be clipped on.  IIRC the XP64 stock was fitted with the clips, I guess WR fitted up other stock

Robert 
Title: Re: Class 21 & 29 proposed by Revolution Trains
Post by: cornish yorkie on May 05, 2016, 11:29:45 PM
 :hellosign: Interest Railsquid ? Brilliant, thanks for sharing
regards Derek.
Title: Re: Class 21 & 29 proposed by Revolution Trains
Post by: Ben Line 457 on May 05, 2016, 11:51:22 PM
Hi
the yellow square you can see was a destination panel that could be clipped on.  IIRC the XP64 stock was fitted with the clips, I guess WR fitted up other stock

Robert

Thanks for that, its interesting that on a colour video they stand out like a sore thumb, but having scanned through a couple of old Bradford Barton books with B&W pics they are there in a lot of photos but it didn't register the colour and size.

Presumably they were for set routes only? I don't suppose there is a list? On the video they seem to be on B/G coaches only, so maybe the clips were fitted during the repaints?
Title: Re: Class 21 & 29 proposed by Revolution Trains
Post by: robert shrives on May 06, 2016, 07:29:43 AM
Hi ,
Re coaches Michael Harris` book BR Mk2 coaches shows a clear Paddington  Cardiff Swansea plate in yellow on a Mk2 b other photos show a Midland Region MK2c with brackets so worth checking build batches. Book does not help on the matter of routes with plates but does show an XP64 first (M13409) with a blue plate and white destination  information - hardly stands out so I guess many photos look like nothing fitted at a quick glance , the western yellow stands out but perhaps fell from favour as being disruptive to the corporate look - and so much for passenger information!

FAO moderators - sorry if off original topic if it needs moving all yours !
regards
Robert
 
Title: Re: Class 21 & 29 proposed by Revolution Trains
Post by: Dalek on April 27, 2018, 01:54:10 PM
In the latest mailshot from Kernow there are pre production images of the class 21 & 29 that are Dapol are producing in OO, due in last 1/4 this year. Wonder if they will shrink ray them to n gauge at a later date ?

Craig
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