N Gauge Forum

General Category => Crowdfunding => Topic started by: johnlambert on February 05, 2015, 09:25:33 PM

Title: Suggestion for RevolutioN - Class 116/117/118 DMU
Post by: johnlambert on February 05, 2015, 09:25:33 PM
Taken from the EMU thread.  I thought I'd start a topic on the 116/117/118 DMUs since it was suggested there.

I know DJ Models has been commissioned to do one for Kernow in OO, I don't know if that represents a problem for doing one in our scale?  It does mean that laser scanning has been done but that's only a small piece of the puzzle in terms of getting the model made and (from what I've heard) a tiny fraction of the cost).  There are also issues with different headcode/destination panel designs and gangways between the cars, which were added at a rebuild.

I guess the only problems are with the detail differences and mouldings required.



So what are the differences between the 115, 116, 117?


Apart from minor differences the major differences are:

Class 115

4 vehicles, two identical power cars, but different power equipment and smaller  brake compartment than class 116 or 117. Both trailer are different, one has toilet, but much is similar.

Class 116/117

Only one power car has brake compartment. Minor differences between 116 and 117 power cars, mostly destination and route indicator panels and power equipment.

The front 2/3rds of the DMBS and DMS are identical. Much of the body is identical to the class 121/122 produced by Dapol. The Dapol chassis would be suitable.

Class 116 TC or TS are virtually identical externally, but differ internally. Very similar to class 115 TS. Class 117 TC is very similar to Class 115 TC externally but varies internally.

As an addition the class 118 is identical to the class 117 apart from the top of the route indication box.


Perhaps it would be better to concentrate on one class rather than trying to do all three?


Do you think there are 1000 modellers to buy one?

Almost certainly; this class always seems to poll highly in the RM Web wishlist.  The Graham Farish Class 101s and 108s sell well, at least in some liveries, as do the Dapol Class 121/122s.

I know I've got three class 108s and five 121/122s including dummies.

The class appeared across large parts of the network in a variety of liveries over a time period of nearly forty years.  Any manufacturer that took over the tooling after the initial run would almost certainly be able to sell additional examples.

Would they accept a sensible price?

I hope so, depends what is considered sensible, looking at the 'rule of thumb' graph from the EMU thread:

I have been thinking about how to answer the difficult question "would they be prepared to pay a reasonable price".  This is tricky...but I'll stick my neck out;

I did a quick analysis of prices of MUs vs. number of carriages, using the BP, BB, 350, Voyager, 4CEP and 3 and 2 car 170s with prices from Hattons.

([url]http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/32/thumb_21125.jpg[/url]) ([url]http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=21125[/url])


That would suggest a price of around £125-150, which seems reasonable to me.


Do you know where we could get proper drawings, or is there a real one left to laser scan to be confident of accuracy?


One has been laser scanned for the OO gauge Kernow model and there appear to be lots of reference sources for the class.


Given current N Gauge technology would there be any serious manufacturing compromises

Dapol managed to hide the motor under the window line for the Class 121/122 and Bachman used the Guards compartment to mostly conceal the works on the 101/108.  Either approach seems viable for the 116/117/118.
Title: Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN - Class 116/117/118 DMU
Post by: Zunnan on February 05, 2015, 10:52:11 PM
Given the similarities of the DMS and DMBS between the 116 and 117 it would be possible to represent both classes with little change to the main body tooling, maybe even none. The destination blind/roof indicator changes is easily addressed in a similar manner to how the class 121/122 was done. Two intermediate trailers is all that is really needed, a TCL and a TS, which should cover most eventualities with these classes.

Noted in a lot of photos towards the ends of their lives I've seen what appear to be unclassed TCLs, but these are later additions to units from redundant class 127s and are actually a TSL. The differences are subtle but definitely there!

I'd actually suggest doing both the 116 and 117. Release them as 2 car units with the DMS and DMBS with loose class 116 TS and class 117 TC to extend them and/or hybrid other units. That way it is the buyer who makes the conscious decision about the TC differences without the need to tool the different first class windows. I'd quite happily run a 4 car class 116/117 hybrid. Afterall, in their later years I saw Tyseley churn out everything hybrid from a 4 car unit formed of all class 116 and 118 DMBS to a class 108/114/116/117 Frankenstein with not one vehicle in the same livery.
Title: Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN - Class 116/117/118 DMU
Post by: Mustermark on February 06, 2015, 01:28:01 AM
I went and bought 4 class 108s because they were near enough to 118s and a lot better than my modified 101s. I'm sure i would be happy to get replacement 118s (or whichever ran on the Western region) and ebay the 108s. I like the idea of 118s a lot. :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN - Class 116/117/118 DMU
Post by: railsquid on February 06, 2015, 01:45:52 AM
Thanks for starting this thread, I was thinking about doing it myself but don't really have enough detailed knowledge about these classes. They were mentioned on the original Pendolo thread, and I think I'm on record there as saying I'd be interested, which I still am, as I travelled on them a lot in the 80s (Birmingham area).

Personally I'd be OK with some sort of hybrid unit and am not too bothered about exact details (e.g. I'm fairly sure the Tyseley units had the WMPTE logo on them but I can live without that).
Title: Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN - Class 116/117/118 DMU
Post by: Only Me on February 06, 2015, 07:12:38 AM
A WR DMU set is something I would sell my 108's off for, i would want four sets as a minimum...  class 119s ran throughout the WR and the midlands
Title: Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN - Class 116/117/118 DMU
Post by: ScottyStitch on February 06, 2015, 07:27:36 AM
Although the 116s and 117s did make an appearance in Scotland, their arrival was too late for me and in the wrong places.

That said I'd happily put myself down for one to support the project.

It looks like there are plenty examples still extant of 117s , helpful for scanning and for obtaining details.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_117 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_117)
Title: Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN - Class 116/117/118 DMU
Post by: ScottyStitch on February 06, 2015, 08:00:44 AM
Blue Class 117

http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/gb/diesel/dmu-heritage/117/l412_mt.jpg (http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/gb/diesel/dmu-heritage/117/l412_mt.jpg)

Blue Grey Class 116

(https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8431/7631326762_cf38a3b669_z.jpg) (https://www.flickr.com/photos/75514026@N03/7631326762/)
Class 116 T320 53890 Crewe (https://www.flickr.com/photos/75514026@N03/7631326762/) by TonyW1960 (https://www.flickr.com/people/75514026@N03/), on Flickr
Title: Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN - Class 116/117/118 DMU
Post by: railsquid on February 06, 2015, 08:17:27 AM
List of preserved units (wow, quite a lot): http://preserved.railcar.co.uk/Class117.html (http://preserved.railcar.co.uk/Class117.html)
Title: Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN - Class 116/117/118 DMU
Post by: Only Me on February 06, 2015, 01:15:39 PM
Doesn't the 116 look very much like the 108 though? One would presume without too much modifying of a tool, Farish could produce this quite easily ?
Title: Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN - Class 116/117/118 DMU
Post by: railsquid on February 06, 2015, 01:20:43 PM
Doesn't the 116 look very much like the 108 though? One would presume without too much modifying of a tool, Farish could produce this quite easily ?
The fronts look similar, but to my eyes by no means identical, and the 116/117/118s are high-density slam-door stock with very different side window/door layouts.
Title: Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN - Class 116/117/118 DMU
Post by: red_death on February 06, 2015, 01:28:05 PM
The 108 is shorter than the 116/117/118 family by 6 or 7 ft!

As railsquid says the 116/117/118 family are the high density suburban stock. You're more likely to go from a 121 to a 116.

Most of them were built by BR at Derby (though some were BRCW or Pressed Steel presumably using plans supplied by BR) so it is no surprise that there are family resemblances!

Cheers, Mike
Title: Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN - Class 116/117/118 DMU
Post by: Zunnan on February 06, 2015, 01:31:46 PM
Doesn't the 116 look very much like the 108 though? One would presume without too much modifying of a tool, Farish could produce this quite easily ?

The only similarity is the cab and destination blind, otherwise they are as different as chalk and cheese. The 108 is on a shorter 58'1" long chassis with a limited number of doors to access the vehicle. Windows are sliding vent type. The 116/117 are on a 64 foot chassis and have a door to every seating bay with the saloon windows non ventilated. Appearance wise it is like comparing a Mk1 corridor coach with a Mk1 suburban.
Title: Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN - Class 116/117/118 DMU
Post by: Only Me on February 06, 2015, 01:34:57 PM
My apologies i meant the front which is the hardest part to make in CAD :).. It would be quite easy to reproduce the sides and roof in CAD... Did these ever make it as far south as Plymouth?
Title: Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN - Class 116/117/118 DMU
Post by: Karhedron on February 06, 2015, 01:44:51 PM
I would definitely be up for a 3-car unit. I model the west-country so the 118 would be most appealing to me. However I would be happy with any of the 116/117/118 family. I think it would be better to produce an accurate model of a specific class (or possibly even 2 if Zunnan's assessment is correct) than to try and produce a generic model.
Title: Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN - Class 116/117/118 DMU
Post by: johnlambert on February 06, 2015, 01:46:01 PM
My apologies i meant the front which is the hardest part to make in CAD :).. It would be quite easy to reproduce the sides and roof in CAD... Did these ever make it as far south as Plymouth?

Taken from DMU Compendium by Colin Boocock:
"The '118s' were split between Plymouth Laira, Bristol St Phillip's Marsh and Reading depots.  Three Class 118 intermediate trailer cars were transferred to make up three-car 117 units.  The resultant two-car power-twin '118s' saw service on low-trafficked West Country branch lines."

So, yes they did. :)
Title: Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN - Class 116/117/118 DMU
Post by: Karhedron on February 06, 2015, 01:46:42 PM
Did these ever make it as far south as Plymouth?

Yup, the 118s were widely used in the south-west. Plymouth was their home turf.

(https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8123/10244419605_410cf3de19_b.jpg)
Title: Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN - Class 116/117/118 DMU
Post by: Zunnan on February 06, 2015, 01:48:20 PM
The 117s certainly worked Cornwall until they were displaced by Sprinters in the '80s, which is when we got them en masse working my local line. Laira certainly had an allocation of class 117 and 118 units. I think they tried replacing them with Pacers at first but the 142s proved so bad that instead they were farmed off and the first gens were retained for a while longer.
Title: Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN - Class 116/117/118 DMU
Post by: Only Me on February 06, 2015, 01:58:48 PM
That'll do for me then ? anyone want five Green 108's ? :)
Title: Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN - Class 116/117/118 DMU
Post by: Karhedron on February 06, 2015, 02:12:18 PM
Thought it might be useful to give people an idea of the relative class sizes and allocations.

Class 116 (Derby)
108 units (2 and 3-car sets)
Mainly operated in the Birmingham and South Wales areas.

Class 117 (Pressed Steel)
42 units (2 and 3-car sets)
Mainly operated in the Thames Valley.

Class 118 (BRC&W)
15 units (2 and 3-car sets)
Mainly operated in the Bristol and South West areas.

It is worth noting that all 3 classes tended to migrate from their originally assigned areas, particularly by the 80s when they started getting displaced by Sprinters.

I have checked and Zunnan is right about the similarity between the 117s and 118s. They were essentially built to the same design but by different contractors (Pressed Steel and BRC&W respectively). It might be possible to cover detail differences in the tooling.

Even if not, you could almost make a 118 power-twin simply by dropping the centre trailer from a 117.

In the '70s some class 116 cars were converted for parcels use, running with GUVs sandwiched between 2 power cars. They were classified as class 130 during this time.

(http://railphotoprints.zenfolio.com/img/s9/v86/p1806085059-3.jpg)

(http://andygibbs.zenfolio.com/img/s1/v21/p512097460-3.jpg)
Title: Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN - Class 116/117/118 DMU
Post by: Karhedron on February 06, 2015, 02:27:53 PM
Do you think there are 1000 modellers to buy one?

I thought I would chip in on this. The Class 117/118 was single highest polling N Gauge entry on the RMWeb 2014 poll with 106 votes (over 50% more than the Pendolino ;)). I can't think of a better indicator of potential sales.
Title: Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN - Class 116/117/118 DMU
Post by: ScottyStitch on February 06, 2015, 02:41:00 PM
I think the rapidity of the take up of the polling re-inforces that. It's a strong contender!
Title: Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN - Class 116/117/118 DMU
Post by: Zunnan on February 06, 2015, 03:22:17 PM
Quote from: Karhedron
I have checked and Zunnan is right about the similarity between the 117s and 118s. They were essentially built to the same design but by different contractors (Pressed Steel and BRC&W respectively). It might be possible to cover detail differences in the tooling.

Looking a bit more closely at them, body wise the 116/117/118 DMS/DMBS are all possible from two body tools. The 116 is the Derby build and the others are contractor built all to the same basic design although with differences in the power train, but even then a good number wound up with the same power unit as other classes...some wound up with different engines on the same power car! With this potential minefield, and a pretty similar layout across the classes, I'd think a single power unit chassis would be the safest bet to cover them all. This leaves the only major differences all in the cab roof, which if done in the same way as the 121/122 makes the three classes possible from minimal tooling. With 3 body tools and one chassis you could cover the 116-118 DMS and DMBS and class 115 DMBS with its much reduced guards compartment. This does require a different set of roofs for each class, but if the groundwork is done on one set of power cars the rest should come with just a new roof being tooled. Trailers should be fairly interchangeable between them, two toolings (TS and TCL) should really cover most bases.

I'll correct myself and apologise at this point too. Re-reading my diary I noticed that our local sets were generally class 115, 116 or 117 or hybrids thereof, but the regular 4 car units were actually formed from a 116 DMS, 116 TS, 127 TSL and 115 DMBS. It was the difference between the TSL and TCL that I noted, I did think it strange at the time of posting and have referred back to the kodak slides and notes my uncle took to double check so I'll go back and change that initial post to get rid of any confusion.
Title: Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN - Class 116/117/118 DMU
Post by: Only Me on February 06, 2015, 03:34:48 PM
You have to remember though, they would need to produce about 1000 units give or take with each tool, therefore I think three tools is unfortunately unrealistic...I think as a collective we should press forward with just one Class of WR DMU (ie the one which we find is most popular) and various liveries and numbering to suit WR and BIRMINGHAM etc..

My reasoning :-
A) for it to be cost effective to a manufacturer to keep the tooling
B) To ensure the 1000 unit mark is reached

Everyone can wish and speculate but if the number of deposits doesn't meet the requirements in the end then nothing would come of it.  Thus channel all into the one Class eg the 118
Title: Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN - Class 116/117/118 DMU
Post by: Zunnan on February 06, 2015, 04:10:06 PM
Don't forget, the 117 was produced in 00 by Lima and sold by the thousands even though they only ever tooled two of the three vehicles. It was in the catalogue for years and only stopped production through sacrificing the tooling to make their class 121.

I would say that if only one unit were to be produced, the 118 is probably the wrong choice as it carried the fewest livery variations as well as being the smaller class by some margin. If it were down to livery choice I'd side with the 117, but sheer class size and geographical spread goes to the 116. And if the 116 were produced the roof modification to convert to a 117 is relatively simple. I'd side with them being sold as power twin sets too, with the trailers separately available. How many preservation railways use ex-DMU trailers? There is a market for these as a stand alone item.

The roof variants is simple enough, Dapol managed it with their 121/122. It may even be possible to do in the same manner as Bachmann did with their 108, in which case the variables across the three classes can be covered with one basic tool for each vehicle and slides for the cab roof. You could even possibly do it by moulding the basic shell with a slot above the cab into which you plug the class specific destination blind/route indicator box moulding. This moulding could be provided separately with each unit on a sprue made from a translucent material and decorated with different destinations/routes for the buyer to fit (how often do we hear people wanting to know how to change the destination blinds in models?).
Title: Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN - Class 116/117/118 DMU
Post by: Only Me on February 06, 2015, 04:23:55 PM
Now that last bit is a super idea!
Title: Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN - Class 116/117/118 DMU
Post by: Portpatrick on February 06, 2015, 04:49:56 PM
I would not buy a 116/7/8.  however looking at units which ran in Scotland, the Cravens 105 would be very nice.  My BHE kit has not come out that well.  And it was quite widely used.  For one pure Scottish, I think, the Gloucester C & W Class 100.
Title: Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN - Class 116/117/118 DMU
Post by: StufromEGDL on February 06, 2015, 05:29:17 PM
117s did run in Scotland in Regional Railways livery before mass Sprinterisation. I think a few 116 vehicles also made it north after the great Ayr dmu depot fire....

Later,
Stu from EGDL.
Title: Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN - Class 116/117/118 DMU
Post by: Only Me on February 06, 2015, 06:02:21 PM
Heres the proof

http://www.scot-rail.co.uk/page/Class+116 (http://www.scot-rail.co.uk/page/Class+116)

http://www.scot-rail.co.uk/page/Class+117 (http://www.scot-rail.co.uk/page/Class+117)
Title: Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN - Class 116/117/118 DMU
Post by: Plainline. on February 06, 2015, 06:09:02 PM
A Gloucester 100 and a Cravens 105 would certainly get my interest!
Title: Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN - Class 116/117/118 DMU
Post by: DJM Dave on February 06, 2015, 06:16:42 PM
Hi everyone,

Before speculation and suggestion regarding Kernow's laser scan of their 3 car DMU 116/117/118 goes any further, I think it's only fair to say that their cad/cam is already spoken for, for 'other parties' and other gauges than OO gauge.

I can say no more than that, sorry.

Cheers
Dave
Title: Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN - Class 116/117/118 DMU
Post by: dodger on February 06, 2015, 06:26:35 PM

Looking a bit more closely at them, body wise the 116/117/118 DMS/DMBS are all possible from two body tools. The 116 is the Derby build and the others are contractor built all to the same basic design although with differences in the power train, but even then a good number wound up with the same power unit as other classes...some wound up with different engines on the same power car! With this potential minefield, and a pretty similar layout across the classes, I'd think a single power unit chassis would be the safest bet to cover them all. This leaves the only major differences all in the cab roof, which if done in the same way as the 121/122 makes the three classes possible from minimal tooling. With 3 body tools and one chassis you could cover the 116-118 DMS and DMBS and class 115 DMBS with its much reduced guards compartment. This does require a different set of roofs for each class, but if the groundwork is done on one set of power cars the rest should come with just a new roof being tooled. Trailers should be fairly interchangeable between them, two toolings (TS and TCL) should really cover most bases.

I'll correct myself and apologise at this point too. Re-reading my diary I noticed that our local sets were generally class 115, 116 or 117 or hybrids thereof, but the regular 4 car units were actually formed from a 116 DMS, 116 TS, 127 TSL and 115 DMBS. It was the difference between the TSL and TCL that I noted, I did think it strange at the time of posting and have referred back to the kodak slides and notes my uncle took to double check so I'll go back and change that initial post to get rid of any confusion.

The 116, 117 and 118 power trains were identical. All originally had Leyland 680 engines, but these were replaced by leyland 1585 in latter days. The differences in the underframe equipment were the battery charging systems and heater control. The 116 had axle driven dynamos and semi auto heaters, whilst the 117 & 118 had engine driven alternators and fully automatic heaters. These differences resulted in different electrical boxes along each side.

Whilst the 3 no 117's were built as 2 car units these acquired the trailers from the 118's reduced to twins. The majority of 117's were London Division units until the delivery of the Turbo's.  Two class 101 TCL were used to make 4 car units. This was always on a temporary basis and there were no permanent 4 car units. Originally the Reading and Southall Depots had their own allocation of 117's but during the early 70's all were allocated to Reading.

Dodger

Title: Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN - Class 116/117/118 DMU
Post by: Portpatrick on February 06, 2015, 06:30:10 PM
Thanks Stu and Only Me.  I am going to need few more of JB's boxes if all these ideas ever come to fruition.
Title: Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN - Class 116/117/118 DMU
Post by: Zunnan on February 06, 2015, 07:02:27 PM
Just to be a pedant, the Leyland 1585 is a 680 variant. Originally the engines were built under the BUT banner by AEC, Leyland Albion and Leyland. Some of the 117s carried AEC built BUT engines, most of the units initially had a BUT (Leyland) 680/1 which was later replaced by Leyland 680/1585 (but not all, and some went to scrap with both types fitted) and the 115s had the more powerful Albions. IIRC the 680/1 was originally air cooled and the 680/1585 was water cooled (at least the compressor was) with a slightly higher power output and the visible differences between them was around the fuel pipe mountings and the fuel pump.
Title: Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN - Class 116/117/118 DMU
Post by: Only Me on February 06, 2015, 09:39:33 PM
Hi everyone,

Before speculation and suggestion regarding Kernow's laser scan of their 3 car DMU 116/117/118 goes any further, I think it's only fair to say that their cad/cam is already spoken for, for 'other parties' and other gauges than OO gauge.

I can say no more than that, sorry.

Cheers
Dave

If this is as you say Dave, can you give us a year eg 2016 or something?  Otherwise whats to stop a crowd funding venture in the same way as a Pendolino? As if people pay a deposit they surely wouldnt forefit it and buy elsewhere?

Cheers Paul
Title: Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN - Class 116/117/118 DMU
Post by: Ben A on February 06, 2015, 10:35:01 PM

Hello all,

As with the Pendolino, the only goal is to see the models we want manufactured.

There's plenty of time; we aren't putting any options up for consideration until we have concrete progress to show on the Pendolino, which is probably a good 6 weeks away at least, and then there'd be a four month period while people are Declaring any interest.

And that is assuming a 117 is among the first tranche of announcements, which haven't been chosen yet anyway.

So there is an absolute minimum of 5-6 months before any money would be taken for this model, and quite possibly longer, giving any other manufacturer plenty of time to decide to announce it.

If not us, then best of luck to anyone who decides to go this  - there certainly seems to be interest.

cheers

Ben A.
Title: Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN - Class 116/117/118 DMU
Post by: johnlambert on February 07, 2015, 11:23:51 AM

As with the Pendolino, the only goal is to see the models we want manufactured.


I quite agree, Ben. 
Title: Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN - Class 116/117/118 DMU
Post by: StufromEGDL on February 07, 2015, 11:30:46 AM
Hi Gang,

I, too, would like to see some or all of the 116/117/118 family.......looking at the previous posts, we could probably limit the interest to 116/117 with the 115/118 on the periphery.

Also, without any of the major or minor players in the N Gauge world having announced the model as a project in progress, then there is nothing to stop the Revolution model of showing interest up front from going ahead and either succeeding or falling short.

Although I am not best placed to sponsor this model, it would receive my support...

Later,
Stu from EGDL.
Title: Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN - Class 116/117/118 DMU
Post by: Chetcombe on February 07, 2015, 04:18:13 PM
As a West Country modeller these have always been at the top of my wish list (alongside a D600 Warship...). So I would commit to 3 or 4 in green or blue.

Imagine how fantastic these woukd look alongside a couple of Class 121s or 122s :heart2:
Title: Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN - Class 116/117/118 DMU
Post by: Bob G on February 08, 2015, 03:53:43 PM
Please make a 117 before I hack my excessive number of acquired 121 dummies into 117s.

I currently feel a lot safer hacking three 121s into a GRCW 119 with BHE sides - no one has said they want a 119 yet!!!

Bob
Title: Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN - Class 116/117/118 DMU
Post by: Karhedron on February 08, 2015, 09:51:03 PM
 :offtopicsign:

If you want to do a 119, you be better off starting with a 122 as it has the correct Gloucester Railway Carriage and Wagon Works front end.
Title: Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN - Class 116/117/118 DMU
Post by: Bob G on February 08, 2015, 10:23:40 PM
They are both copies of the Derby end.
The 117 / 121 should be a little more angular than the GRCW version, IMHO.
But they are both better than the old whitemetal ends  ;)
Title: Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN - Class 116/117/118 DMU
Post by: Chris in Prague on July 12, 2015, 07:38:40 PM
My apologies i meant the front which is the hardest part to make in CAD :).. It would be quite easy to reproduce the sides and roof in CAD... Did these ever make it as far south as Plymouth?

Plymouth Laira had allocated: Class 116, 118 'Suburban' DMUs plus Swindon Cross Country Class 120 DMUs (some 2-car, some 3-car). Plus W55XXX single cars and W56XXX trailer cars and these trailer cars should be an easy-to-produce variant of the suburban DMU cars?
Title: Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN - Class 116/117/118 DMU
Post by: Roy L S on July 12, 2015, 07:45:50 PM
Wasn't the 116/117 Family of DMUs one of the most asked for in the most recent NGS wishlist poll?

It does seem to tick a lot of boxes in that it covers the important steam/diesel transition period and BR blue through to some of the 1980s liveries too, plus some in preservation. I don't think they changed that much externally either, upgrades being more to the interiors so not too many tooling variations?

Roy

Title: Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN - Class 116/117/118 DMU
Post by: D1042 Western Princess on July 12, 2015, 09:15:04 PM
'Real' (1st Generation) DMUs for the WR are very rare in model form, unless you count the bubble cars.
Anything for the WR c1970 livery would be most welcome by me, and I can't think I'm alone..
Title: Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN - Class 116/117/118 DMU
Post by: Chris in Prague on September 06, 2015, 07:35:07 AM
With Bachmann's announcement that they are taking over Kernow's project to make an 00 Class 118 3-car DMU can a N Gauge one be coming too?
Title: Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN - Class 116/117/118 DMU
Post by: Karhedron on September 06, 2015, 08:29:21 AM
Bachmann seem to be a little haphazard over what goes through the shrinking ray. They announced some years ago that they would seek to harmonize their 00 and N gauge ranges but I think that was an idea rather than a solid ambition. Some things that I would have expected to see in N gauge such as the MLV, 2-EPB and City of Truro are nowhere to be seen. Other models such as the MN, Hawksworths and Castles are already done by Hornby in 00.

I would very much hope that we will see an N gauge 117 but until Bachmann make a firm announcement, all bets are off. I would suggest the best thing is to write/email Bachmann and say how much you would like an N gauge version. Their existing N gauge DMUs seem to be good sellers and have justified additional production runs. On that basis, an N gauge 117 might be possible.
Title: Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN - Class 116/117/118 DMU
Post by: Roy L S on September 06, 2015, 10:31:06 AM
Looking at the current list price for an 101 3 Car - £159.95 - I do wonder if DMUs will continue to sell as well as they have done up to now. If I recall correctly there was quite a price hike to DMUs generally (00 and N) when Bachmann announced their big price adjustments. My personal feeling is that Bachmann may shy away from tooling any further 3 car DMUs in N for the foreseeable this reason.

Indeed it is notable that nothing new appears to have been announced for N at the Bachmann Collectors Club awayday and if TINGS last year is any indicator we will see nothing new next weekend either.

Clearly Bachmann are now being very savvy re: commonality of parts, would we have seen an A1 without "Tornado" and then an A2 without the tender drive from the A1? (Ditto J39 following B1). Following this logic my personal suggestion to Bachmann was a BR Standard 78xxx which could reuse the pretty much identical Ivatt 2-6-0 chassis.

The issue is I think as far as all major manufacturers are concerned we have now hit a plateau as far as new British N products go and whereas there may still be demand there will also be perceived risk. This is where I see RevolutioN's contribution possibly continuing to support some growth in N where "mainstream" manufacturers would not. Using the crowdfunding principle risk can be evaluated up front before a single piece of costly research takes place.

Roy
Title: Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN - Class 116/117/118 DMU
Post by: Woodenhead on September 06, 2015, 10:49:26 AM
We might have hit a plateau but it can't be the end for new N gauge models.

We've just had the Bogie B and the Hawksworth coaches with more to come.

I can see why the 105 DMU didn't get shrinked but I think the 117 with its livery options and use should see a reduction.

Of course if that leads into 116/8s in OO and a subsequent shrink into N is another thing altogether.

I'll admit I did come away from the N gauge society AGM feeling a little concerned about the future of N and very nearly caved in for OO again but I've decided to stick it out, accept we won't get everything and have begun building a new layout.
Title: Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN - Class 116/117/118 DMU
Post by: Roy L S on September 06, 2015, 11:16:28 AM
We might have hit a plateau but it can't be the end for new N gauge models.

We've just had the Bogie B and the Hawksworth coaches with more to come.

I can see why the 105 DMU didn't get shrinked but I think the 117 with its livery options and use should see a reduction.

Of course if that leads into 116/8s in OO and a subsequent shrink into N is another thing altogether.

I'll admit I did come away from the N gauge society AGM feeling a little concerned about the future of N and very nearly caved in for OO again but I've decided to stick it out, accept we won't get everything and have begun building a new layout.

Hi Woodenhead

I wasn't meaning the brakes being slammed full on as regards future development is concerned more a continuation of the slow down as regards the pace of new products the like of which are currently witnessing.

For sure there are still some fine products emerging out of those already announced, but nothing like as many and completely new announcements are far fewer. That is partly logical, we still have a 64xx Pannier and Castle to appear as far as steam locos go, only the 64xx EP so far seen so the other clearly some way off. The J72 and Class 40 Diesel still clearly much earlier in development so a lot on the "to do" list for Bachmann and even more for Dapol.

I believe cost/price point will be a consideration for future models as will reusing common parts where it can be done (The LNER Group Standard tender drive has many potential locos it could "push" for example).

I agree that a 1st Generation suburban DMU is a clear gap in the N Market, the question is would a manufacturer take the risk that it is big enough such that they could sell enough of such 3 car DMUs at say £160 a pop to fill it and make a return on investment?

Regards

Roy

Title: Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN - Class 116/117/118 DMU
Post by: red_death on September 06, 2015, 11:22:16 AM
I'm hopeful that Bachmann will see the sense in shrinking the 117.

I think that Roy raises an interesting point (if one we have discussed regularly) about pricing - I think that we have little choice but to accept the new norm of prive levels if we want to see investment in new tooling.  I doubt that we could get a 3 car unit produced significantly cheaper than Bachmann are quoting (certainly not on the sorts of runs we are looking at).

I think it is a challenge for the market/N gauge community to prove that a market exists and that people will buy at a level (numbers and price) which makes it worthwhile to produce new tooling.

Cheers, Mike
Title: Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN - Class 116/117/118 DMU
Post by: Roy L S on September 06, 2015, 11:45:39 AM
I'm hopeful that Bachmann will see the sense in shrinking the 117.

I think that Roy raises an interesting point (if one we have discussed regularly) about pricing - I think that we have little choice but to accept the new norm of prive levels if we want to see investment in new tooling.  I doubt that we could get a 3 car unit produced significantly cheaper than Bachmann are quoting (certainly not on the sorts of runs we are looking at).

I think it is a challenge for the market/N gauge community to prove that a market exists and that people will buy at a level (numbers and price) which makes it worthwhile to produce new tooling.

Cheers, Mike

Hi Mike

I don't disagree as regards pricing, higher prices are here to stay. However it is also the case that demand is not totally inelastic and higher prices will undoubtedly impact volumes sold/projected to be sold so affecting production decisions. A product may not be projected by a manufacturer to sell 3000+ at £160 a go to justify return on investment but it may generate 1000-1500 pledges at that price making it viable as a crowd-funded project?

Regards

Roy
Title: Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN - Class 116/117/118 DMU
Post by: Chris in Prague on September 06, 2015, 11:58:34 AM
China's current problems and the fall in the value of its currency may result in lower than previously expected production costs for mofels manufactured there. I still think a 3-car suburban DMU would be profitable in N Gauge.
Title: Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN - Class 116/117/118 DMU
Post by: Ben A on September 06, 2015, 02:53:03 PM
A product may not be projected by a manufacturer to sell 3000+ at £160 a go to justify return on investment but it may generate 1000-1500 pledges at that price making it viable as a crowd-funded project?

Regards

Roy

Hello Roy,

I'd say you've summed it up in a nutshell.

In N 1500 sales at £160 will cover the tooling costs and production of the models, and give the manufacturer a small profit, but would not include retailer mark-up.  For that to be included, at the same price point, you need the 3000+ production run.

In OO the depth of the market means that 3000 sales in, say, 2 years is a reasonably confident minimum expectation even for niche items. 

In N that isn't the case, so for those items where projected sales are lower than 3,000 we are trying to offer a different route to market by taking out the risk.

But an additional factor here is Bachmann's oft-stated policy of only dealing with businesses with an established retail premises.  This, they believe, protects the retail trade in what are testing times.  It is an added complication when considering where best to look for future projects.

cheers

Ben A.
Title: Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN - Class 116/117/118 DMU
Post by: Woodenhead on September 06, 2015, 06:55:21 PM
Interesting comments, perhaps this is why Hornby seem so keen on direct selling as they can reduce the number of units produced or improve their profit without impacting the price to the purchaser.

Bachmann have so far protected their retailers by resisting going direct but perhaps in N gauge with a smaller market then the future might have to be more direct sales focused to allow for the smaller runs.
Title: Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN - Class 116/117/118 DMU
Post by: D1042 Western Princess on September 06, 2015, 07:46:19 PM

In N 1500 sales at £160 will cover the tooling costs and production of the models, and give the manufacturer a small profit, but would not include retailer mark-up.  For that to be included, at the same price point, you need the 3000+ production run.

Ben A.

Not being an economist I realise others here might well tear this post to bits but if 3,000 sales at £160 each (£480,000) are needed to make a profit wouldn't, say, 6,000 sales at £100 each (£600,000), make a bigger profit overall? Also more people would be likely to purchase the lower priced model thereby ensuring the greater market. It is also a long established fact that the more you produce of any given item the cheaper it becomes to produce.
But as I say, I'm not an economist, just a pensioner who would happily pay £100 each for three or four 3 car WR DMUs but likely to say no to more than one at £160.
I can't think I'm alone here.
Title: Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN - Class 116/117/118 DMU
Post by: red_death on September 06, 2015, 07:53:26 PM
Sorry folks but the market is not that big! Or you have to be prepared or able to spread the tooling costs over a much longer period than is possible for many small companies.

Of course it really depends on the split between (fixed) tooling and unit production costs as to where the balance is.

The much more realistic scenario, particularly as we get ever further into niche or marginal products, is that you would price the units higher and sell to fewer people.

Cheers, Mike

Title: Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN - Class 116/117/118 DMU
Post by: D1042 Western Princess on September 06, 2015, 07:59:10 PM
Sorry folks but the market is not that big! Or you have to be prepared or able to spread the tooling costs over a much longer period than is possible for many small companies.

Of course it really depends on the split between (fixed) tooling and unit production costs as to where the balance is.

The much more realistic scenario, particularly as we get ever further into niche or marginal products, is that you would price the units higher and sell to fewer people.

Cheers, Mike

Just how many would they sell at, say £160 as opposed to £100 each? I'd certainly buy at least three at £100 (£300) but only one at £160 (£!60).
What we really need to know is just how big the 'market' is - over 4000 members here and most N gaugers are not signed up ....... it could be huge in reality, but we just don't know.
Title: Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN - Class 116/117/118 DMU
Post by: Sprintex on September 06, 2015, 08:00:24 PM
How many of those 4,000 members want a particular model of DMU though? ;)


Paul
Title: Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN - Class 116/117/118 DMU
Post by: ScottyStitch on September 06, 2015, 08:02:32 PM
Sorry folks but the market is not that big! Or you have to be prepared or able to spread the tooling costs over a much longer period than is possible for many small companies.

Of course it really depends on the split between (fixed) tooling and unit production costs as to where the balance is.

The much more realistic scenario, particularly as we get ever further into niche or marginal products, is that you would price the units higher and sell to fewer people.

Cheers, Mike

Just how many would they sell at, say £160 as opposed to £100 each? I'd certainly buy at least three at £100 (£300) but only one at £160 (£!60).
What we really need to know is just how big the 'market' is - over 4000 members here and most N gaugers are not signed up ....... it could be huge in reality, but we just don't know.

Slightly OT, but As a matter of interest, why wouldn't you buy two at £160 each (i.e. only £20 more than the £300 for 3) I'm just curious, I'm not being picky........
Title: Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN - Class 116/117/118 DMU
Post by: Woodenhead on September 06, 2015, 08:35:33 PM
Agreed the logic of three at hundred or just one at 160 does seem odd.

But agree as prices rise the options to buy more than one of anything reduce markedly.
Title: Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN - Class 116/117/118 DMU
Post by: Ben A on September 06, 2015, 08:45:41 PM
Hello WP,

Yes - which is why Japanese models seem to be amazingly cheap by our standards. The market there is far larger than in the UK (I have heard it estimated to be around 6 million) and typically Kato will not produce less than 10,000 units of any model for the domestic market.

The cost of any model is a combination of the research/tooling costs plus individual production cost per model.  And the more you make, the less each model needs to contribute to the fixed tooling costs.  If it costs, say, £100,000 to research and tool a model, and each individual model then costs £20 to actually manufacture, paint and package then 1,000 models would have a factory cost of £120 each, 2,000 would have a factory cost of £70 each, whereas 10,000 models would have a £30 factory price and so on.

And these are pure factory prices.  By the time manufacturer profit, shipping, retailer margin and tax is factored in these prices can double or treble.

The difficulty is that the manufacturer in the UK has to commit that money up front.  They can choose to produce 1,000 models for £120,000 or 10,000 for £300,000.  And that decision is the one that could make or break them.  Models sitting on shelves in the warehouse are wasted money.

So you reach a point where, if you want a particular UK prototype, then you accept that for the size of the market the price has to be higher.  And where we come in is by finding 1000 likeminded adult enthusiasts with disposable income who are prepared to say "I want one of those.  I understand it's not viable for the normal financial model so to make it happen I am prepared to spend more."

The big question, of course, is: "How much more?"  And it's to control that cost side of things that our only option is to sell direct.  If we tried to factor in retailer margins then our TEA tankers would be around £45 (like the Farish Polybulk) rather than the £26 you can order them for.

cheers

Ben A.

Title: Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN - Class 116/117/118 DMU
Post by: red_death on September 06, 2015, 09:01:37 PM
Just how many would they sell at, say £160 as opposed to £100 each? I'd certainly buy at least three at £100 (£300) but only one at £160 (£!60).
What we really need to know is just how big the 'market' is - over 4000 members here and most N gaugers are not signed up ....... it could be huge in reality, but we just don't know.

I think Farish and Dapol have reasonable ideas of how big the market is, we (Revolution Trains) are starting to get more and more data. From our point of view our next two possible projects (announced next weekend) will give us even more data on the market.

There are 6,000 NGS members and undoubtedly some N gaugers are not NGS members, however that doesn't necessarily translate into a large proportion of N gauge modellers who want (and will buy) a particular model. Getting a 1000 orders of anything (pretty much the minimum needed to make it worthwhile producing something) is difficult!

Cheers, Mike
Title: Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN - Class 116/117/118 DMU
Post by: Karhedron on September 06, 2015, 10:01:07 PM
Not being an economist I realise others here might well tear this post to bits but if 3,000 sales at £160 each (£480,000) are needed to make a profit wouldn't, say, 6,000 sales at £100 each (£600,000), make a bigger profit overall?
Sadly it is not quite that simple, you also have to take into account unit costs (the cost to manufacture each item).  Inj the initial production run, you have 3 costs to cover. R&D costs (including tooling), unit costs (raw materials, factory time, shipping costs) and profit.

Depending on the split between R&D costs and unit costs, selling 6000 units at £100 might no actually generate any additional profit if the unit costs are quite high.

This was the origin of Hornby's "Design clever" philosophy. The idea being that a little more time and effort at the R&D stage could reduce the number of separate components and thus reduce the unit costs. I remember Dapol quoting when they produced the Gresleys that each extra component that needs fitting adds about 25 pence to the unit cost. I cannot imagine this has come down since then.
Title: Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN - Class 116/117/118 DMU
Post by: D1042 Western Princess on September 06, 2015, 10:47:19 PM

Slightly OT, but As a matter of interest, why wouldn't you buy two at £160 each (i.e. only £20 more than the £300 for 3) I'm just curious, I'm not being picky........

Not being funny but you answer your own question - 3 x 3 car DMUs for £300 as opposed to 2 x 3 car DMUs for £320.
If I have £300 to spend on models then I'd rather buy 3 DMUs than 2 for a bigger price.

Title: Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN - Class 116/117/118 DMU
Post by: Woodenhead on September 06, 2015, 11:07:06 PM
We'd all like more for less but it was the logic that with £300 to spend you would only by one at £160 or 3 at £100.

If you want three but can only afford two then just buy two.
Title: Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN - Class 116/117/118 DMU
Post by: D1042 Western Princess on September 06, 2015, 11:19:56 PM
We'd all like more for less but it was the logic that with £300 to spend you would only by one at £160 or 3 at £100.

If you want three but can only afford two then just buy two.

OK, if you can afford it. For myself my mind rebels at paying much over £100 for a model therefore the chances are, at £100 I'd get 3 but at £160 I'd get none.
Title: Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN - Class 116/117/118 DMU
Post by: Ben A on September 07, 2015, 12:47:26 AM
OK, if you can afford it. For myself my mind rebels at paying much over £100 for a model therefore the chances are, at £100 I'd get 3 but at £160 I'd get none.

Am I missing something here?

To get three (which you say you'd buy) costs £300.  So you surely can afford one at £160 if you wanted to, and have £140 to spend on something else.

But my point really is that the economics are what they are.  If there were more N Gauge enthusiasts buying more models then everything would be cheaper, but there aren't.

So this is a way for those of us who want to get more variety on our layouts to do that, while accepting that niche items are likely to cost more, and require us to put in some cash up front, than the ever popular items.

Yes, you could have another Class 37 or 47 for £80, but if you want something a little more esoteric then the price will be higher.

cheers

Ben A.




Title: Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN - Class 116/117/118 DMU
Post by: D1042 Western Princess on September 07, 2015, 07:34:57 AM
OK, if you can afford it. For myself my mind rebels at paying much over £100 for a model therefore the chances are, at £100 I'd get 3 but at £160 I'd get none.

Am I missing something here?

To get three (which you say you'd buy) costs £300.  So you surely can afford one at £160 if you wanted to, and have £140 to spend on something else.


cheers

Ben A.

Yes Ben, you are missing something - my point. While I could afford £160 for one, and even buy 3 or 4 at that price (cost wise) I would NOT pay that much for a model.
It is NOT the price (as I said, I would be happy to buy several), as everyone seems to be thinking, but a PRINCIPLE.
It is my view that the manufacturer will charge what people are ready to pay (not just in model railways but things in general) and because people like you are ready, and willing, to part with £160 for a 3 car DMU the manufacturer will put a price of £160 on the product. It is my opinion that the next model might be £170 and the one after that £180 and so on because they know people will pay that much.
If we all said no, I won't pay more than £100 for it then the price would be £100 and that is that.
Meanwhile I have managed without DMUs for a long time (loco and coaches doing the honours) and will do so for a while longer.
 
Title: Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN - Class 116/117/118 DMU
Post by: Ben A on September 07, 2015, 08:11:43 AM
If we all said no, I won't pay more than £100 for it then the price would be £100 and that is that.
Meanwhile I have managed without DMUs for a long time (loco and coaches doing the honours) and will do so for a while longer.

Hi D1042 Western Princess,

I am sorry but I disagree.  If we all said we would not pay more than £100 then the chances are we would get nothing.  Or, if we did, it would be of a poorer quality than we would like because it is produced down to a price, rather than up to a standard.

It may be the manufacturer will charge what people are willing to pay, but they also charge what they need to produce a quality product that also makes enough profit to sustain their business and keep people in work.  And increasingly, that includes their Chinese employees who want a fair day's pay for a fair day's work.  I honestly do not know any millionaires working in model railways. 

I don't see that we are being ripped somehow - for me the new models are better and better and long may that continue.

cheers

Ben A.
Title: Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN - Class 116/117/118 DMU
Post by: D1042 Western Princess on September 07, 2015, 08:22:17 AM
Many years ago I discovered that it cost Peco about 1p a yard to produce plain track but they were selling it for about 75p a yard (as I said, many years ago) and have queried the costs of model railway equipment ever since.
I know track and DMUs are different things, but I still wonder at how much a model actually costs to produce compared with how much they want us to pay to get one.

Since we are unlikely to agree on this Ben might I suggest that, having both expressed our views, we leave the matter?

Best wishes,
Greg.


Title: Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN - Class 116/117/118 DMU
Post by: red_death on September 07, 2015, 08:39:27 AM
Greg

Ben and I are in the happy(?) position of knowing just how much it costs things like DMUs cost to manufacture because that is what we are doing with our company. If you think that we (or any of the other model manufacturers) are making a killing in terms of profits then I'm afraid you are mistaken. Some of the decisions I've seen are on profit margins so low that they wouldn't get accepted in many businesses.

Of course it is everyone's right to choose what they are willing to pay - we all make value judgements which will vary by the individual's circumstances (we are talking about toy trains after all) - but let's not cut our noses off to spite our face particularly if the starting premise is incorrect is that all manufacturers are out to screw us.

Cheers Mike
Title: Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN - Class 116/117/118 DMU
Post by: Karhedron on September 07, 2015, 09:13:47 AM
I think we have been spoiled a but with multiple units recently. The Blue Pullman and Brighton Belle represented amazing value for money while the 4-CEP and Desiro have been in the bargain bins to some extent creating the impression that multiple units are cheap to produce and can be had for £25-£35 per vehicle for a powered set.

I think that this has been a quirk due to these units being released just before the latest price increases from China. The new run items from Farish are coming at £55-£65 per vehicle at RRP (although I am sure there will still be bargains to be had).

I did the maths about this time last year for the unsucessful GWR Railcar Kick-starter. I was unable to get the price below about £120 per car and that was with no profit! Compared to that I don't think that £160 for a 3-car DMU is so bad. Would I like it for £100 instead? Of course I would.

But I am realistic enough to realize that is unlikely to happen without a much larger market or significant compromises. £160 is around the price of a newly tooled loco and a pair of coaches. Yes you could buy 3 vehicles including motive power for less than that but they are slightly older models that were produced and shipped before Chinese inflation really started to bite.

I can buy a 3-car 108 DMU from a well known Scouser establishment for less than £100 but that is not much use to me as it would not have been seen on WR metals. I would love to pay the same price for a 116/117/118 but realistically I think that I would be willing to pay £150.
Title: Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN - Class 116/117/118 DMU
Post by: Ben A on September 07, 2015, 11:47:31 AM

Hi Greg,

Fair enough - but thanks for the good discussion.  I actually wish we had had it a week or so ago as last weekend I was down at Pecorama and could have asked Michael Pritchard directly how much his track costs to make - though he probably wouldn't have told me!

Interestingly, one thing he did tell me was that all Peco track is retooled from time to time, even if the design stays exactly the same.  This is both because tools wear out, and also to allow small, but incremental improvements.

He can look at a turnout and know which tool it was from by tiny nuances with the moulding and the design.

But, as ever, Peco track may only cost, strictly speaking, 1p per yard to actually manufacture, but every item sold also has to pay toward the wages of those making it, salesteam, receptionists, designers, managers etc etc and also toward the fixed costs of the factory.  As we all generating a proft.   Then there is retailer margin (usually around 50%-100%) plus taxt (20%) so the costs soon add up!

cheers

Ben A.




Title: Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN - Class 116/117/118 DMU
Post by: Chris in Prague on September 07, 2015, 12:31:56 PM
Bachmann announce Class 117 and 121 DMUís [in 00]
by grahammuz

At  their annual Collectors Club event, this year held at the Gloucestershire Warwickshire Railway, last Saturday, Bachmann announced their intention to produce Class 117 and 121 Suburban DMU's [in 00].

More information about this release can be read on the Bachmann website. Some of you will remember that The Kernow Model Centre announced their intention to produce this family of Western Region suburban DMUs at Warley last year.  In fact they had already laser scanned a Class 117 and had completed their initial research.  Following meetings with Bachmann after the Warley show at Warley it became clear Bachmann were also working on this model.  The Kernow Model Centre had previously said that they have no interest in "taking on" a major manufacturer and so immediately offered their research and laser scan data to Bachmann and they have been working with them on this project ever since.  Although primarily based on the Western Region the Class 117 units could be seen on Southern Region metals on Reading - Guildford services.

The Kernow model Centre have also advised that they have not forgotten about the Class 116 and Class 118 and further news about these will be announced  in due course (but with no current timescale for such an announcement).

So, a N Gauge Class 117 from Graham Farish, late next year?
Title: Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN - Class 116/117/118 DMU
Post by: bluedepot on September 23, 2015, 08:20:26 PM
i would buy a 3 car 117 in nse livery if it was under 130 quid

it probably makes more sense for bachmann to produce this in n gauge as well though


tim
Title: Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN - Class 116/117/118 DMU
Post by: JasonBz on September 23, 2015, 08:44:11 PM
Ill have an N gauge Class 118 and to be honest, (within reason!) the cost is irrelevant; cos one fits ideally with what I want to do.

I have other Rail Blue DMUs* that can and will run on my WR plans, but I know they are not really right - A 118 is right and therefore worth acquiring :)

* Bought cos they are available and do fit in with another, longer term plan that may end up N or 2FS  - I aint thought that far yet!
Title: Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN - Class 116/117/118 DMU
Post by: Ben A on September 23, 2015, 11:11:39 PM

Hi Jason,

Now we know Bachmann are doing the 117 in OO, I suspect that will soon be shrunk down to N.  They've said they are keen to look at the 116 and 118 too, and so in turn they are likely to appear if the 117 doeswell.

If they don't then that could be the point for Revolution to see if they would be interested in our trying to help them "over the line", as we are hoping to do for Dapol with the 21 & 29..

cheers

Ben A.
Title: Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN - Class 116/117/118 DMU
Post by: JasonBz on September 23, 2015, 11:26:24 PM
Cheers Ben
its nice to know there seems to be a lot of sense in your operation (not that Im suggesting it would be otherwise!!)
But a helping hand and a "nudge" to the manufacturers seems a good plan :)
Title: Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN - Class 116/117/118 DMU
Post by: D1042 Western Princess on September 24, 2015, 07:35:33 AM
Although primarily based on the Western Region the Class 117 units could be seen on Southern Region metals on Reading - Guildford services.


Deeper than that Chris. Class 117s ran as far into Southern Region as Reading - Gatwick Airport and, for a while, as far east as Kent on the Reading - Tonbridge services. Through passenger workings to Tonbridge came to an end with electrification of the line between Redhill and Tonbridge. After that they terminated, as they still do, at Redhill (except the Gatwick services of course).
In fact all the various DMU types based at Reading (except the Thumpers and Turbos) were regular performers to Kent in the 1980s/early 1990s.

P/S They also covered the Reading - Basingstoke services on occasion if no Thumper was available for some reason.
Title: Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN - Class 116/117/118 DMU
Post by: Bob G on September 24, 2015, 07:07:12 PM
Even more southern-ness:

Portsmouth - Bristol Cardiff services were Hymek powered in the 1960s, then replaced by Class 123 Swindon Units (date unknown).

The western's 117s (in blue), along with 119s (blue/grey) and later 101s (blue/grey) took over the Portsmouth - Bristol/Cardiff services from the 123s in the early 1970s. Two three car DMU sets were used and usually one of each (i.e. a 117/119 or 117/101).  There was a 15 minute stop at Salisbury for them to get their breath back  ;) or believe it or not to wait for a connecting train  :laugh:

They were replaced in about 1977 by class 31s hauling five Mk 1s (typically SO-SO-BG-FK-SO). The 31 wasnt as good at keeping time as the DMUs  :thumbsdown:

Even more reason for a 117 in my book!

Bob
Title: Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN - Class 116/117/118 DMU
Post by: gc4946 on September 24, 2015, 07:30:42 PM
I didn't know 117s even worked to Portsmouth -  never saw any running when I attended my junior school between 1974-1977 which was located beside the Portsmouth-Southampton line.
The Bristol trains by then used pairs of class 119s. Neither did I see any 101s in operation on these services, either.
Title: Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN - Class 116/117/118 DMU
Post by: Bob G on September 24, 2015, 08:31:57 PM
Somewhere i have the photos to prove it  :hmmm:

I was 14 in 1974/75 when i started spotting them around Portsmouth and the 101s only came in about 1976, and by summer 1977 they had been replaced by 31/1 and then for winter the early batch of 31/4 locos. The 101s came from Plymouth and had P801-P805 codes on the front. I think they were reallocated to Bristol for a while.
i agree the 119s were most common, but the 117 were the only all blue WR DMUs at the time and the combination was often an all blue and a blue grey combo.

Cheers
Bob
Title: Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN - Class 116/117/118 DMU
Post by: gc4946 on September 24, 2015, 08:50:04 PM
Please dig out your photos ... :)
I may consider buying a 117 in blue if ever released ... it would be much easier than hacking several Dapol 121s for the same result.
(PS I already own two 3-car 101s, one each in blue and blue/grey)
Title: Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN - Class 116/117/118 DMU
Post by: Chris in Prague on September 24, 2015, 09:11:54 PM
Although primarily based on the Western Region the Class 117 units could be seen on Southern Region metals on Reading - Guildford services.


Deeper than that Chris. Class 117s ran as far into Southern Region as Reading - Gatwick Airport and, for a while, as far east as Kent on the Reading - Tonbridge services. Through passenger workings to Tonbridge came to an end with electrification of the line between Redhill and Tonbridge. After that they terminated, as they still do, at Redhill (except the Gatwick services of course).
In fact all the various DMU types based at Reading (except the Thumpers and Turbos) were regular performers to Kent in the 1980s/early 1990s.

P/S They also covered the Reading - Basingstoke services on occasion if no Thumper was available for some reason.

The Thumpers, being SR units, were never based at Reading.

I remember the WR DMUs on the Gatwick Services. I think the Class 119s had extra luggage racks and, maybe, special branding on the side? I think WR DMUs worked on to the SR at Basingstoke and Salisbury quite early on (certainly in pre-BR Blue days).

I had not meant to give an exhaustive list of services on the SR that were regularly powered by WR DMUs but am very happy that others have done so. (I did not know that they worked into Kent regularly.) The WR Class 101s were not very common. Plymouth Laira and Bristol Bath Road both had allocations of 101s but I cannot remember if they both had them allocated to them at the same time. Bristol's, at least, originally, were in all over blue.
Title: Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN - Class 116/117/118 DMU
Post by: 37058 on September 25, 2015, 09:27:05 PM
Not fully read this thread, but my vote (being a Midlands Lad) has gone to a 116.

Please please please...

Cheers, Anthony
Title: Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN - Class 116/117/118 DMU
Post by: chris newman on June 13, 2016, 06:19:05 PM
Hi Guys
           I would like to add my support for this project, primarily the 117/118 variants as for the era and area that I'm interested in modelling, preferably green with speed whisker or SYP would be favourite and probably two of each although I might be tempted to additionally if made available in late NSE colours!!

       Having read all the previous posts an this thread-I would like to ask Ben A & Red death(as I believe they are both involved with Revolution) what would it take to "nudge" Dapol in the direction of producing the 121/122 DTS units  as  I seldom (key word) saw the DMBS on their own in the London Division (WR).
       But good luck with whatever you decide to do!!!
(were the DTS trailers the same length as the DMS units on the 117/118--if so another possibility for a variant as it doesn't need a motor!!)
Regds

Chris 
Title: Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN - Class 116/117/118 DMU
Post by: 1977joey on February 07, 2018, 07:24:22 PM
Hi everyone,

Only just discovered this thread. I too would love to see either of the above units produced, preferably Blue & Grey would be for me as Farish still don't have one on the cards... I've put my vote in  ;)

A 117 I think would be the best choice as it has seen such a wide sphere of operation plus the different liveries right from BR green to Regional Railways.

The larger Suburban DMU's are really lacking if your modelling anything from the late 50's through to the early 90's

Cheers,
Mark
Title: Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN - Class 116/117/118 DMU
Post by: 25901JFM on February 10, 2018, 06:28:03 PM
My vote went in for the 118. Living in Devon in my childhood and early adult life meant that these were for me the staple diet of DMU activity until the invasion of the ill fated 142's.  Ironically they were replaced by various worn out 2 & 3 car 101's & 108's and a handful of single car 122's.  In the early 80's the 118's were predominantly allocated to Laira with one or two sets at Bristol.  These and the 117's were very similar to look at, one give away being the profile of the top of headcode boxes.  This was down to the different builders.  In most other respects they were pretty much the same due to the standard design from BR.  For me either would be acceptable, but a preference is for the 118.  Although as mentioned the 117's appeared in a wider range of liveries including one set (B430?) that appeared in Chocolate & Cream for the GWR 150 celebrations.  The 118's only appeared in green, all over blue, blue and grey and the one off BT advertising livery (set P460 from memory).
As for price?  If I can afford one then I will buy one.  Like it or not prices are only going to go up, I see the new Farish 3 car 108 in the 'white with blue stripe' livery is advertised on one retailers website at £168.00, not sure when this is due for release though.