N Gauge Forum

General Category => Crowdfunding => Topic started by: BudgieJane on January 16, 2015, 02:18:15 PM

Title: Suggestion for RevolutioN - Electrostar 377/2
Post by: BudgieJane on January 16, 2015, 02:18:15 PM
Class 387 Electrostars have started working to Beckenham Junction (one of my local stations). So that's even more reasons for the manufacturers to make models of Electrostars.
Title: Re: Electrostars
Post by: ScottyStitch on January 16, 2015, 02:36:43 PM
Sadly, Jane, I suspect it isn't as simple as that....... :no:
Title: Re: Electrostars
Post by: red_death on January 16, 2015, 03:10:12 PM
I'd love a model of an Electrostar, the problem with them from a manufacturing point of view is which variant to do?

Cheers, Mike
Title: Re: Electrostars
Post by: BudgieJane on January 16, 2015, 11:01:37 PM
Well, you start off with the version that is most common, i.e. not 377/6 or 377/7
Title: Re: Electrostars
Post by: Richey1977 on January 17, 2015, 07:03:11 AM
I'm just up the road in Dartford, and I'd also like an Electrostar variant or a 465/466. Doubt it'll happen though.

I do intend to get the 171 in Southern Railway colours though, although I haven't read my reviews.
Title: Re: Electrostars
Post by: Greybeema on January 17, 2015, 08:11:30 AM
Richie,

Hopefully there will be a kit of the 465/466 Networker coming out soon.  Someone on this site was working in it. 

In the meantime if you take a look at my rather old Northfleet thread below you might see one thing to remind you of them...
Title: Re: Electrostars
Post by: red_death on January 17, 2015, 11:15:24 AM
Sorry, my question could have been more direct - which variant is likely to be the most popular (that probably means as much geographical coverage and livery options as possible)?
Secondly is there a market for 1000 of them?

I don't know enough detail about the Electrostars at the moment to answer those questions.

Cheers, Mike
Title: Re: Electrostars
Post by: Greybeema on January 17, 2015, 11:43:34 AM
Not sure what the market for EMUs really is.  Did GF reach their sales objectives for the4CEP & Desiro?

I have given up on a RTR EMU for my specific location of North Kent.  The primary unit there is the 465/466 Networker with 376 Electostar operating inner suburban services.  Hornby tried a 466 but I don't think it sold well - probably indicating to the manufacturers that this is not the way to go.

At this stage what I would like is a complete kit inc chassis, coach bodies etc.  My 465 Networker (see link) was made from 3D printed Cabs, farish MKIIs, GF class 150 and vinyls.  Good project but a pain in the a&e to gather all the parts.

So given the generally limited cross regional spread for specific types of of EMU - I am not sure how easy it would be to produce a commercially viable RTR Electrostar but maybe in kit form?
Title: Re: Electrostars
Post by: captainelectra on January 17, 2015, 12:17:06 PM
From some of the feedback I have seen on here and the ERG Facebook page, I do believe that an Electrostar would work in N (and also 4mm but that's a different matter). Using the original 375 / 377 design with ribbon glazing, you could cover pretty much the entire Southern Region along with services via the MML and WCML to Rugby / MK / Bedford.

There are numerous livery and sub-class variations, so choosing the correct initial prototypes will take care but with two basic bodyshells (three if you count the pantograph well on the roof), tooling costs shouldn't be as high as, say, the Blue Pullman or Pendolino. Just a shame that it lacks the "sexy" factor...

Title: Re: Electrostars
Post by: edwin_m on January 17, 2015, 05:05:43 PM
The largest differences between Electrostars are the original 357 on the Tilbury line which has no end gangways, and the 376 and 378 which have inset sliding doors and no end gangways (but end doors in the case of the 378).  All the others are pretty similar, the main difference being the change from ribbon glazing to separate windows which could be modelled by a plastic insert or even with vinyls.  There are also some differences in light clusters. 
Title: Re: Electrostars
Post by: Claude Dreyfus on January 17, 2015, 06:53:25 PM
The largest differences between Electrostars are the original 357 on the Tilbury line which has no end gangways, and the 376 and 378 which have inset sliding doors and no end gangways (but end doors in the case of the 378).  All the others are pretty similar, the main difference being the change from ribbon glazing to separate windows which could be modelled by a plastic insert or even with vinyls.  There are also some differences in light clusters. 


As a further elaboration to the above....

Southern

377/1

377101-139 have smaller front light clusters. These are the only 4-car Southern units with these types of lights; although the 28-strong 3-car class 377/3s have the same design.

(http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd417/Claude_Dreyfus/377132_zpsb7fbe337.jpg)

377140 - 164 have larger light clusters, with black surrounds. This design also covers the dual-voltage 377/2s and the class 377/4s. The 377/5s are the same design as the 377/4s, only a different livery.

(http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd417/Claude_Dreyfus/377408_zps7b50d37f.jpg)

The 377/6 and 377/7 classes are both 5-car and have the individual windows, as opposed to the ribbon design. They have the similar design windows to the class 387 Thameslink and 379 Greater Anglia trains.

South Eastern

The following sub-classes have the same light cluster design as 377101-139.

375/6 - dual-voltage unit
375/7

375/8 and 377/9 have the same design headlight clusters as the 377/4, but with yellow surrounds instead of black.

The 375/3 is identical to the 377/3 (part from the livery of course!) as they were originally the same class, Southern receiving 28 of this class.

For what it is worth, an ideal start point would be the 377/4 and/or 375/8, both the largest sub-classes in their respective fleets and externally of a similar design. The 377/2 (virtually identical but with pantographs fitted) seems to have spread its wings over recent years, and can be seen anywhere on the Southern network.

Certainly I would love to see the Electrostar produced in N Gauge (ideally the Southern 377)...where do I sign up?!  :D ;)
Title: Re: Electrostars
Post by: edwin_m on January 17, 2015, 09:13:22 PM
Do the ones with the later window design have the same light clusters as the second photo?  From a quick look at photos I think they do, although they also have a light in the front underskirt which I think is to illuminate the track.  It looks to me as if the later light clusters swappable window strips and front skirts and removeable shoes and pan would cover a good range of classes running on the WCML and West Anglia as well as south of London. 

Also worth noting for completeness that the 375s were supplied with Tightlock couplers but I believe have now been converted to Dellner as fitted to the 377s from new (?).  Easily handled in model form by swappable dummies that plug into the NEM socket - this detail would be lost for anyone needing working couplers. 
Title: Re: Electrostars
Post by: BudgieJane on January 17, 2015, 09:33:40 PM
Hornby tried a 466 but I don't think it sold well - probably indicating to the manufacturers that this is not the way to go.

Since the 466 is mainly used as a strengthener for trains made of 465s (yes, I know there are a couple of places where they run on their own), I'd have thought Hornby would have sold more 465s than they did 466s, even though manufacturers seem to prefer shorter units in OO. I would think 465s would sell well in N.
Title: Re: Electrostars
Post by: Claude Dreyfus on January 17, 2015, 09:40:00 PM
Do the ones with the later window design have the same light clusters as the second photo?  From a quick look at photos I think they do, although they also have a light in the front underskirt which I think is to illuminate the track.  It looks to me as if the later light clusters swappable window strips and front skirts and removeable shoes and pan would cover a good range of classes running on the WCML and West Anglia as well as south of London. 



Yes, they have the same light clusters...

(http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd417/Claude_Dreyfus/377619_zpsa0ec49f7.jpg)

I also forgot about the light on the front skirt; however this looks only to operate when the train is moving

(http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd417/Claude_Dreyfus/377612_zps9c970933.jpg)

By the looks of things, the basic body design for the later units, 377/6, 377/7, 379 and 387 look essentially the same (including the light on the front skirt).


Also worth noting for completeness that the 375s were supplied with Tightlock couplers but I believe have now been converted to Dellner as fitted to the 377s from new (?).  Easily handled in model form by swappable dummies that plug into the NEM socket - this detail would be lost for anyone needing working couplers. 


The 377s had their couplings converted shortly after transfer...they ran as class 375s initially until the conversion. Some of the nice Kato Scharfenberg-type couplings would do the trick; but they aren't easy to uncouple...
Title: Re: Electrostars
Post by: Claude Dreyfus on January 17, 2015, 09:49:03 PM
Sorry, my question could have been more direct - which variant is likely to be the most popular (that probably means as much geographical coverage and livery options as possible)?
Secondly is there a market for 1000 of them?

I don't know enough detail about the Electrostars at the moment to answer those questions.

Cheers, Mike

Well, they more often than not run as 8 or 12 carriage sets, so most people who are interested would go for more than one. Based on the current Pendolino numbers (440 separate pledges at the time of writing, at least 880 could be potentially be achieved). My suggestion would slightly later designed headlights with the ribbon glazing, i.e. the class 377/4.
Title: Re: Electrostars
Post by: Claude Dreyfus on January 17, 2015, 11:29:36 PM
One more picture to show the cab end differences within the class 377/1.

(http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd417/Claude_Dreyfus/13568696074_c327a79def_o_zps3f9ffea6.jpg)
Title: Re: Electrostars
Post by: acko22 on January 18, 2015, 01:29:41 AM
Well there is lots of different design variants to the fleet.

Would it not be worth looking into how many people would be interested in the model?
While a kick start may not be sought after as a method of getting the model going but with the current publicity and the fact that no matter the want for modern N gauge passenger fleet EMUs is really there.
Like previously said its a case finding a a variant that could be most sought after and proving a sound financial case for it either by declarations of interest or maybe pledging
Title: Re: Electrostars
Post by: gc4946 on January 18, 2015, 09:31:29 AM
I'd go for one of the dual-voltage variants as they will have more appeal and a wider geographical spread - a Southern 377/2 would look great alongside a LM Desiro or Pendolino as well!
Title: Re: Electrostars
Post by: captainelectra on January 18, 2015, 11:58:36 AM
I would recommend the 377/2 in Southern Livery as a good first choice - they worked on the WCML until very recently and could also double up as Thameslink 377/5s.

SouthEastern operate the 375/8 which also has the later light clusters but is single voltage.
Title: Re: Electrostars
Post by: Claude Dreyfus on January 18, 2015, 03:38:35 PM
Well there is lots of different design variants to the fleet.

Would it not be worth looking into how many people would be interested in the model?
While a kick start may not be sought after as a method of getting the model going but with the current publicity and the fact that no matter the want for modern N gauge passenger fleet EMUs is really there.
Like previously said its a case finding a a variant that could be most sought after and proving a sound financial case for it either by declarations of interest or maybe pledging


There was some discussion around this a while ago on this thread...

http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=24586.0 (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=24586.0)

I would recommend the 377/2 in Southern Livery as a good first choice - they worked on the WCML until very recently and could also double up as Thameslink 377/5s.



I'd go for one of the dual-voltage variants as they will have more appeal and a wider geographical spread - a Southern 377/2 would look great alongside a LM Desiro or Pendolino as well!


Indeed, the 377/2 would have a wider appeal (and I believe they are identical to the 377/5; they are also compatible together, I travelled on a service formed of 377207 and 377514 the other day), but it is a small sub-class (15 members). That said, you will see them anywhere between Southampton and Hastings; Brighton and Bedford...along with Milton Keynes and (I believe) Sevenoaks.

Oh yes, and they used to operate as far as Rugby.
Title: Re: Electrostars
Post by: acko22 on January 18, 2015, 04:13:41 PM
Claude has great points about how the set runs and what is a massive geographical area the 377/2 run which would make it a good candidate for production as it has a wide appeal and multiple sale possibilities.
Then it has the plus point that the variations in design and liveries could again increase follow on sales in the future

Its a case of would there be anyone willing to push it forward? I know Mike and Ben who have pushed the Pendolino have positions of status if you like within the N gauge world and the contacts that go with that.
Also how would the funding be sourced Kick start is one idea but it would be a case of finding a manufacturer who is willing to come in with what ever funding / idea that comes forward.
Title: Re: Electrostars
Post by: red_death on January 18, 2015, 04:23:49 PM
Chaps and chapesses

Without letting the cat too much out of the bag if you can wait until after 10pm tonight then I am sure a mechanism can be found  :D

The only difference between DC and dual voltage variants seems to be the fitting of a pantograph - is that right (assuming window/light variations etc are covered).

From a manufacturing point of view, I'm looking at what you could do with 2 bodyshells (driving car and trailers). In this case a wide variety of liveries is good (provided you can et them all from the same tooling). So things like pantographs can be added, but it probably means settling on one type of light cluster and window frame type (though that might be more flexible if we could use inlay type arrangements).

Cheers, Mike
Title: Re: Electrostars
Post by: Claude Dreyfus on January 18, 2015, 05:35:03 PM

Without letting the cat too much out of the bag if you can wait until after 10pm tonight then I am sure a mechanism can be found  :D

The only difference between DC and dual voltage variants seems to be the fitting of a pantograph - is that right (assuming window/light variations etc are covered).


If we are talking the about the difference between the class 377/1 (377140 - 164) and 377/4, and the dual-voltage 377/2 and 377/5 is, I believe, just the addition of the pantograph (as well as the liveries).

(http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd417/Claude_Dreyfus/13493798045_45c848cfc3_o_zpsbf5cda98.jpg)
377204 at Haywards Heath with a Littlehampton train

I understand the pantograph used is the Brecknell Willis high-speed type...the same as this offering from Dapol?

http://dapol.co.uk/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=910 (http://dapol.co.uk/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=910)


From a manufacturing point of view, I'm looking at what you could do with 2 bodyshells (driving car and trailers). In this case a wide variety of liveries is good (provided you can et them all from the same tooling). So things like pantographs can be added, but it probably means settling on one type of light cluster and window frame type (though that might be more flexible if we could use inlay type arrangements).



The two intermediate trailers have a difference in their roof details; one has a pantograph well (all the units have these). I also suspect there may be a minor difference in window configuration, as one of the trailers has a disabled toilet...which is considerably larger than the standard toilet unit (although inlays would easily counter this difference).
Title: Re: Electrostars
Post by: captainelectra on January 18, 2015, 09:15:13 PM
By introducing slides into the tooling, it should be possible to cover both end light-cluster types, though probably a taller order to replicate the newer body types with "normal" glazing.

If lighting was introduced, then you would also need to consider different circuitry for both headlight types as well.

For those who say it is just a box on wheels, take a look at the picture below, particularly the elaborate bogie-mount casting at frame level...

(https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpa1/t31.0-8/10921607_10152661020891033_4500562622010497079_o.jpg)
Title: Re: Electrostars
Post by: red_death on January 18, 2015, 10:08:18 PM
Depends entirely if slides would work for that shape and position.

If you have to do the windows as inlays anyway (to avoid lots of tooling) then I don't see the difference between ribbon and new windows as being difficult. The ones you can't do are the ones with recessed doors (378 and one other IIRC).

Cheers, M
Title: Re: Electrostars
Post by: Claude Dreyfus on January 18, 2015, 10:13:35 PM
Depends entirely if slides would work for that shape and position.

If you have to do the windows as inlays anyway (to avoid lots of tooling) then I don't see the difference between ribbon and new windows as being difficult. The ones you can't do are the ones with recessed doors (378 and one other IIRC).

Cheers, M

The 5-car South Eastern class 376 is the other type with recessed doors. Like the 378 they do not have the corridor cab connections.
Title: Re: Electrostars
Post by: edwin_m on January 19, 2015, 08:22:18 AM
The 5-car South Eastern class 376 is the other type with recessed doors. Like the 378 they do not have the corridor cab connections.

There are also significant differences between the 376 and 378.  The 376 has a window but no door in the middle of the front end, the 378 has a door but no window.  I believe the 376 is also not air conditioned so it may not have the aircon vents on the roof, but I can't find a photo to confirm this.  So it sounds like doing either class would be tricky.
Title: Re: Electrostars
Post by: NeMo on January 19, 2015, 08:37:31 AM
I would recommend the 377/2 in Southern Livery as a good first choice - they worked on the WCML until very recently and could also double up as Thameslink 377/5s.
Sounds good to me. Certainly, price depending, a Southern, pantograph-fitted one would be the one I'd buy.

But what are the Southern EMUs currently working on the WCML? A different subclass of 377? Or something else entirely?

Cheers, NeMo
Title: Re: Electrostars
Post by: Claude Dreyfus on January 19, 2015, 08:54:34 AM
Sounds good to me. Certainly, price depending, a Southern, pantograph-fitted one would be the one I'd buy.

But what are the Southern EMUs currently working on the WCML? A different subclass of 377? Or something else entirely?


Both the 377/2 and the new 377/7 crop up on the southern WCML.
Title: Re: Electrostars
Post by: Ben A on January 19, 2015, 10:43:08 AM

Hi all,

So if we ignore liveries and limit ourselves to 4-car gangwayed versions, the main body tooling issues are light clusters and ribbon/standard glazing? Is this correct?

Which gives us:

377/1 - small clusters, ribbon glazing, Southern, 3rd rail only, 64 built
377/2 - large clusters, ribbon glazing, Southern, Thameslink, dual voltage, 15 built
377/4 - large clusters, ribbon glazing, Southern, 3rd rail only, 75 built
377/5 - large clusters, ribbon glazing, Thameslink, dual voltage, 23 built

Seems 377/2/4/5 best option.  And according to Wikipedia the formation of all these units is:

DMOC-MOSL-PTSOL-DMOS

The next question, and speaking purely in terms of mouldings, not liveries, are there any differences between the two driving cars and the two centre cars other than panto well?

Cheers

Ben A.
Title: Re: Electrostars
Post by: Claude Dreyfus on January 19, 2015, 10:47:56 AM
377140 - 164 have the later-style light clusters.
Title: Re: Electrostars
Post by: acko22 on January 19, 2015, 11:06:18 AM
Ok just noticed the comment mike said last night which seemed a little teasing when I reread it.

Not Ben you have turned up on her with Mike asking questions about the designs!
Ypu pair aren't looking at your next project already are you? I mean it has been less than 24hours since the kickstart fro the Pendolino project has closed and you are still working with the Plan B side of life on that!

If you are well fair play to both of you, all I can say is you pair must either not like to take a break or glutens for punishment!
Title: Re: Electrostars
Post by: Ben A on January 19, 2015, 11:32:55 AM

Hi Acko,

This thread interests me anyway, but I am keen to see if there is a consensus. 

One problem already identified with Electrostars seems to be that people only want the *exact* right one. - even if the differences are as trivial as light cluster sizes....

Of course, if I am wrong then great !

Cheers

Ben A,
Title: Re: Electrostars
Post by: acko22 on January 19, 2015, 11:38:18 AM
Well its always the clusters that are an issue!

Honest answer for me is I have little idea they are technically the wrong end of the country for me!
Been a northern lad the new trains we get are generally 20+ years old!

Would be interesting to see what comes though, especially if you and Mike went for round 2!
Title: Re: Electrostars
Post by: Claude Dreyfus on January 19, 2015, 12:31:19 PM
From an external point of view (excluding liveries) you are looking at about 100 Southern and about 60 South Eastern units being more or less identical externally; including the light cluster design (more detailed research may throw up some minor differences).

On top of this, you have the 38 dual-voltage 377/2 and 377/5 units which I believe are identical to the 100 or so 'standard' Southern units, save for the pantograph. That is a base of nearly 200 units covering Dover and Margate to Southampton and Eastleigh, via Bedford and Milton Keynes.
Title: Re: Electrostars
Post by: edwin_m on January 19, 2015, 12:54:23 PM
Which classes have camera pods? 
Title: Re: Electrostars
Post by: Claude Dreyfus on January 19, 2015, 01:28:49 PM
Which classes have camera pods?

 I'm guessing you are referring to the cameras on the side of the units; checking doors and the pltforms etc from the train. I believe these are standard for the Southern units, but I'm sure someone more intimately aquainted with their operation could confirm this.
Title: Re: Electrostars
Post by: PostModN66 on January 19, 2015, 02:26:18 PM
One problem already identified with Electrostars seems to be that people only want the *exact* right one. - even if the differences are as trivial as light cluster sizes....

I wouldn't mind - if it looks like an Electrostar and has the right livery I would be happy!

...but that's just me..!

Cheers  Jon  :)

PS: preferably with a sprung pan and 9" curve capacity!
Title: Re: Electrostars
Post by: Tank on January 19, 2015, 02:33:22 PM
I'd certainly buy 2 models.....as long as they're in Southern livery then that's perfect.  :)
Title: Re: Electrostars
Post by: acko22 on January 19, 2015, 02:36:13 PM
 :laughabovepost:
I was about to say I would love one in First Livery, my layout is northwest themed so they don't appear up my end of the sticks but First do transpennine So I could get away with it!
But got to be realistic its about what model will sell best if people are wanting it!
Title: Re: Electrostars
Post by: woodbury22uk on January 19, 2015, 02:38:40 PM
Although slightly out of date (2012) livery and set length wise, for someone a bit weak on detailed Electrostar knowledge I found the Modern Locomotives Limited No. 194 "The Electrostar family -Classes 357, 375-379" provides a good grounding.

Now part of Key Publishing:-

http://www.modernlocomotives.co.uk/ (http://www.modernlocomotives.co.uk/)   homepage

http://www.modernlocomotives.co.uk/issues.asp (http://www.modernlocomotives.co.uk/issues.asp)   Issue 194

Title: Re: Electrostars
Post by: Greybeema on January 19, 2015, 05:21:10 PM
I would be up for one.  I'll take a 375/8, SouthEastern livery.  There will have to be engineering works that day, reroute through Dartford...

http://railwayherald.com/imagingcentre/view/322551/IS435224011421687462 (http://railwayherald.com/imagingcentre/view/322551/IS435224011421687462)
Title: Re: Electrostars
Post by: gerry9253 on January 19, 2015, 06:11:25 PM
I will buy these in Southern and South Eastern and I believe that some Electrostars will to be transferred to the Great Western and Midland Lines upon electrification therefore providing more opportunities for liveries and usage.

Gerry
Title: Re: Electrostars
Post by: edwin_m on January 19, 2015, 08:45:10 PM
I will buy these in Southern and South Eastern and I believe that some Electrostars will to be transferred to the Great Western and Midland Lines upon electrification therefore providing more opportunities for liveries and usage.


Nothing confirmed yet, but if it does happen it will probably be the latest versions with the separate windows.  Another reason to go for that insert! 

And don't forget the version for the expats....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gautrain (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gautrain)

Yes the ends are different but the sides are the same. 
Title: Re: Electrostars
Post by: captainelectra on January 20, 2015, 07:38:29 AM
I believe the plan is for the new 378s to go to Great Western upon delivery of the Class 700 Thameslink units from Siemens - the other Electrostars in use with Thameslink are likely to go back to Southern duties.

The cascade policy is very fluid and could well change but with new IEPs and Thameslnk trains on the way, the shape of the railway will change immensely.
Title: Re: Electrostars
Post by: BudgieJane on January 20, 2015, 10:12:02 AM
One problem already identified with Electrostars seems to be that people only want the *exact* right one. - even if the differences are as trivial as light cluster sizes....

I wouldn't mind - if it looks like an Electrostar and has the right livery I would be happy!

...but that's just me..!

Cheers  Jon  :)

PS: preferably with a sprung pan and 9" curve capacity!

No, it's not just you; it's me as well. I don't need the pantograph, though, but if it were to be included it could possibly be removed or the train run with it in the down position.

Since these units run in 8- and 12-car formations as well as singly, I reckon I will need at least a dozen of them, in all sorts of liveries.
Title: Re: Electrostars
Post by: JBQFC on January 20, 2015, 10:24:21 AM
One problem already identified with Electrostars seems to be that people only want the *exact* right one. - even if the differences are as trivial as light cluster sizes....

I wouldn't mind - if it looks like an Electrostar and has the right livery I would be happy!

...but that's just me..!

Cheers  Jon  :)

PS: preferably with a sprung pan and 9" curve capacity!

that me too i would want 2 or 3 sets of each in thameslink and southern liveries
some dummy units would be nice   
Title: Re: Electrostars
Post by: ScottyStitch on January 20, 2015, 12:13:09 PM
One problem already identified with Electrostars seems to be that people only want the *exact* right one. - even if the differences are as trivial as light cluster sizes....

I wouldn't mind - if it looks like an Electrostar and has the right livery I would be happy!

...but that's just me..!

Cheers  Jon  :)

PS: preferably with a sprung pan and 9" curve capacity!

that me too i would want 2 or 3 sets of each in thameslink and southern liveries
some dummy units would be nice

Farish seem reluctant to do dummies, whereas Dapol and DJM seem reasonably happy to do them. I wonder what Rapido's take on it would be?
Title: Re: Electrostars
Post by: captainelectra on January 20, 2015, 01:38:42 PM
I think most folk would be happy with any Electrostar, providing there is the choice of SouthEastern, Southern and Thameslink liveries, along with the option for a pantograph version.

Title: Re: Electrostars
Post by: gerry9253 on January 20, 2015, 03:50:46 PM
Aren't Electrostars also serving Cambridge too? The more routes the better!

Gerry
Title: Re: Electrostars
Post by: IST on January 20, 2015, 07:13:30 PM
I would buy at least one 4 car set of Southern liveried 377/4, it would look great next to my SWT trains.
(Just as I saw it in Southampton in 2006: http://www.vonatmagazin.hu/2009/03/southampton-2006/ (http://www.vonatmagazin.hu/2009/03/southampton-2006/)
Title: Re: Electrostars
Post by: Karhedron on January 21, 2015, 09:07:01 AM
Farish seem reluctant to do dummies, whereas Dapol and DJM seem reasonably happy to do them. I wonder what Rapido's take on it would be?
It could be because Farish only do a single motor bogie per unit (I think). Perhaps their MUs don't have enough extra haulage to pull dummy units?  ???
Title: Re: Electrostars
Post by: ScottyStitch on January 21, 2015, 09:15:42 AM
Farish seem reluctant to do dummies, whereas Dapol and DJM seem reasonably happy to do them. I wonder what Rapido's take on it would be?
It could be because Farish only do a single motor bogie per unit (I think). Perhaps their MUs don't have enough extra haulage to pull dummy units?  ???

Possibly, but they don't do dummy locomotives either. At the last call, they cited that it would cost them almost as much to produce a dummy as it would a motorised version, which of course would be reflected in the selling price. But again Dapol and DJM seem to find a way and keep the price reasonable.
Title: Re: Electrostars
Post by: Karhedron on January 21, 2015, 11:25:52 AM
Yes, you are right on both counts. Farish are just a brand owned by Bachmann and as such seem rather less flexible than Dapol/DJM. A good example has been the NGS attempting to buy extra bits like bogies from the QM brake van which would be useful to SR modelers for kit building. Farish refused (even though the NGS offered to order thousands) on the basis that they are not a bits provider.

Strangely, Bachmann are happy enough to sell spare parts like bogies. :headbutt:
Title: Re: Electrostars
Post by: kaiwhara on January 23, 2015, 08:46:15 AM
Me? Happy as long as it looks like an Electrostar, and can come in 3 and 4 car DC variants in Southern Colours

So picky am I...  ;)
Title: Re: Electrostars
Post by: Ben A on January 23, 2015, 11:31:36 AM

Hello all,

Let's keep it simple.

Consider a powered 4-car Class 377 with large light clusters and ribbon glazing, offered in Southern, Thameslink and as a 375 in South Eastern colours, with "bits bag" containing dummy end couplers and customer fit panto.

What would be a fair price?

cheers

Ben A.

Title: Re: Electrostars
Post by: Claude Dreyfus on January 23, 2015, 11:38:32 AM
Personally speaking, depending on the spec, I would consider 100 - 150 for a 4-car unit.

The basic premise you list above should appeal to the vast majority of those of us who would live to have at least one of these units.
Title: Re: Electrostars
Post by: UPINSMOKE on January 23, 2015, 12:14:28 PM
Personally speaking, depending on the spec, I would consider 100 - 150 for a 4-car unit.

The basic premise you list above should appeal to the vast majority of those of us who would live to have at least one of these units.

I agree I would love to have one of these and would be prepared to pay the same. Being new to all this I don't know all the technical differences between what units are what. But give me a picture and I know what appeals to me :D :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Electrostars
Post by: BudgieJane on January 23, 2015, 12:39:35 PM
I think a fair price would be similar to what GF charge for their 4-car Desiro sets, which I understand is just under 160, but available cheaper from the usual box-shifters.

Of course, that doesn't mean I wouldn't be prepared to pay more, within reason.
Title: Re: Electrostars
Post by: Brooksy on January 23, 2015, 12:50:58 PM
I agree with Claude and put it between 100 and 150 - ideally around 120. The cheaper it is the more likely people will buy multiples.
Title: Re: Electrostars
Post by: Karhedron on January 23, 2015, 02:00:12 PM
I think the same price mark as the Farish Desiro is a good target to aim for. If you can offer dummies too (and the powered version has enough Oomph to haul them), that would be a bonus. Not sure how much a dummy would save in a 4-car rake though.
Title: Re: Electrostars
Post by: PaulCheffus on January 23, 2015, 02:26:02 PM
I agree with Claude and put it between 100 and 150 - ideally around 120. The cheaper it is the more likely people will buy multiples.

Hi

I think you need to be realistic. I would agree with the comment above that 160 would be about right the same as the Desiro.

Cheers

Paul
Title: Re: Electrostars
Post by: ScottyStitch on January 23, 2015, 02:29:58 PM
I agree with Claude and put it between 100 and 150 - ideally around 120. The cheaper it is the more likely people will buy multiples.

Hi

I think you need to be realistic. I would agree with the comment above that 160 would be about right the same as the Desiro.

Cheers

Paul

Agreed. I'd expect a similar price to a similar product in the market place.
Title: Re: Electrostars
Post by: red_death on January 23, 2015, 03:02:52 PM
Scotty's last point about similar price point to similar products in the marketplace is a very interesting one.

Here is an alternative thought - would people be prepared to pay a premium to get models produced that are less appealing or too risky for the mainstream manufacturers?

The reason I ask is that tooling costs split over 3000 units vs 1000 units can dramatically influence the retail price. 

Cheers, Mike
Title: Re: Electrostars
Post by: ScottyStitch on January 23, 2015, 03:28:56 PM
Scotty's last point about similar price point to similar products in the marketplace is a very interesting one.

Here is an alternative thought - would people be prepared to pay a premium to get models produced that are less appealing or too risky for the mainstream manufacturers?

The reason I ask is that tooling costs split over 3000 units vs 1000 units can dramatically influence the retail price. 

Cheers, Mike

Hi Mike

Just for clarity, my comment on like for like pricing was intended as a minimum

In answer to your question, yes I would.

If someone would produce, for example, an NBL Class 21/29, I'd happily pay over the 'standard' price to get it produced. There are other models I'd be prepared to do that for

Scotty
Title: Re: Electrostars
Post by: njee20 on January 23, 2015, 05:08:47 PM
If you could come in less than the Desiro (through skipping the middle man, a la the Pendo) then great, and more likely people will buy multiples, however as it's unlikely you'll halve the cost that's potentially a bit of a moot point.

As such I'd say I'd be "prepared" to pay 160+, but of course less would be preferable  :)

The premium thing is a difficult one isn't it.I'd like a Windhoff MPV, and the model made by those on this forum looks excellent, but I can't justify paying more for the 3D printed kit, than the Bachmann OO gauge RTR model. If this were a RTR model (as we're obviously proposing) then I'd swallow more of a premium personally.
Title: Re: Electrostars
Post by: edwin_m on January 23, 2015, 05:20:26 PM
I'm not sure the dummy idea would work.  A power unit to run four coaches might fit below the windows like the Dapol 156 but for eight I would have thought it would have to protrude about window sill level to get enough weight on the wheels.  Surely much better to make all units powered?  If the unit is through-wired like I think is proposed for the Pendolino then one decoder can do motor and lights both ends, but a dummy unit would still need a decoder for the lights. 

It also gives the possibility of modelling somewhere where Electrostars split and join several times per hour, as they do in several places on the big railway. 
Title: Re: Electrostars
Post by: ScottyStitch on January 23, 2015, 05:47:10 PM
I'm not sure the dummy idea would work.  A power unit to run four coaches might fit below the windows like the Dapol 156 but for eight I would have thought it would have to protrude about window sill level to get enough weight on the wheels.  Surely much better to make all units powered?  If the unit is through-wired like I think is proposed for the Pendolino then one decoder can do motor and lights both ends, but a dummy unit would still need a decoder for the lights. 

It also gives the possibility of modelling somewhere where Electrostars split and join several times per hour, as they do in several places on the big railway.

I'm pretty sure the new Pendo will have two independent motors and require two decoders for DCC control. Mike and Ben will be able to confirm that though, and I may be wrong.
Title: Re: Electrostars
Post by: Claude Dreyfus on January 23, 2015, 06:26:48 PM
Scotty's last point about similar price point to similar products in the marketplace is a very interesting one.

Here is an alternative thought - would people be prepared to pay a premium to get models produced that are less appealing or too risky for the mainstream manufacturers?

The reason I ask is that tooling costs split over 3000 units vs 1000 units can dramatically influence the retail price. 

Cheers, Mike

In a word, yes! My suggestion was a guide, but for everyone who would want a model come what may, there would be many more who will have a limit. The closer you nudge to 200.00 the lower the number of takers. If a decent model of an Electrostar was produced for, say, 175.00, no doubt I would order a few. 200 a pop, then you are looking at perhap one or two.

Obviously the pricing is very important...if this discussion turned into something more tangible, I would be very interested to see how the price would be reached. Either way, I think most of us would accept the price would be higher than a 'standard' 4-car unit.

Apologies if there are any typos...currently experiencing 377147 doing about 80mph!
Title: Re: Electrostars
Post by: njee20 on January 23, 2015, 08:01:14 PM
And how late was it tonight Claude?!

Through wiring to reduce number of decoders is a great idea - I'd have bought at least one more decoder if I didn't need to spend the same again on the requisite three decoders for each unit!
Title: Re: Electrostars
Post by: kaiwhara on January 23, 2015, 08:05:16 PM
In which car would one decide to put the motor bogie in? I ask this as, it would realistically need to be in one of the Driving Cars, or the Panto Car. The MOS wouldn't be able to have it, as in doing so it would prevent the 377/3 being able to be modeled.

Not so worried about the headlights. I think the newer light clusters look better anyway.

Any thought been given to custom ordered fleet numbering? I have no idea whats involved, but how would that be able to be worked? Or even transfers?

Andrew
Title: Re: Electrostars
Post by: njee20 on January 23, 2015, 08:51:21 PM
Jumping the gun re fleet numbers there a little! This is still a very theoretical discussion!
Title: Re: Electrostars
Post by: BudgieJane on January 23, 2015, 10:31:03 PM
Jumping the gun re fleet numbers there a little! This is still a very theoretical discussion!

Theoretical it might be, but I'm wondering if the question that sparked this debate about how much you will pay implies that something is planned for the not-so-distant future.
Title: Re: Electrostars
Post by: njee20 on January 23, 2015, 10:45:14 PM
Yes I agree, but ruminating on the process for choosing running numbers is a long way down the line. I'd love to see this happen though, and would gladly buy at least one unit.
Title: Re: Electrostars
Post by: NTrain on January 23, 2015, 10:52:59 PM
I have had it suggested that N-Train should produce this as a kit.

I can confirm that it is not a current development. I do have a lot of information about the units, and have done some minor CAD work for this. BUT, it is NOT a kit I am currently working on.

Once I have completed the range of kits I have already got in development, I will check to see if anyone has this underway. If not, I will then dust off my info and get busy. An N-Train kit, without motorised chassis would be about 150
Title: Re: Electrostars
Post by: Brooksy on January 24, 2015, 07:30:48 AM
Hi

I think you need to be realistic. I would agree with the comment above that 160 would be about right the same as the Desiro.

Cheers

Paul

It depends on whether you are talking RRP or actual price paid. For instance the Dapol Arriva 66 + 2 coaches + DVT has just gone on sale on Hattons for 131. If the price was a lot more than this than I'm sure I'd get one but multiples will be out of the question.
Title: Re: Electrostars
Post by: NeMo on January 24, 2015, 09:04:23 AM
Personally speaking, depending on the spec, I would consider 100 - 150 for a 4-car unit.
Sounds right to me, but honestly, towards the lower end of that range.

It's your classic conundrum: lower the spec to keep the price accessible to the biggest number of purchasers, or raise the spec, but with the understanding the high price will turn away a proportion of possible purchasers.

The Farish Desiro was out there around the 150 mark initially, but probably like a lot of people who own this set, I waited until the price came down a bit, and got mine for under 100.

In fact I can't remember the last time I actually bought any model train at RRP.

Rather than coming up with ideas for liveries and running numbers, perhaps some thought could be given to ways to reduce the cost of the project? I'm not suggesting cutting corners unnecessarily, but are there compromises that could be made without losing the essence of the project? For example: leaving "the bag of bits" to a third party to produce? Or leaving off the pantograph so that the Dapol one could be installed if WCML running is required? Just throwing ideas out there...

Cheers, NeMo
Title: Re: Electrostars
Post by: StufromEGDL on January 24, 2015, 10:34:18 AM
 Bob,

I hope you continue to concentrate on the pep family of EMUs for now...I'm patiently waiting for the 314...

Later,
Stu in LCRA.
Title: Re: Electrostars
Post by: PaulCheffus on January 24, 2015, 10:40:43 AM
Hi

I think you need to be realistic. I would agree with the comment above that 160 would be about right the same as the Desiro.

Cheers

Paul

It depends on whether you are talking RRP or actual price paid. For instance the Dapol Arriva 66 + 2 coaches + DVT has just gone on sale on Hattons for 131. If the price was a lot more than this than I'm sure I'd get one but multiples will be out of the question.

Hi

RRP.

Cheers

Paul
Title: Re: Electrostars
Post by: red_death on January 24, 2015, 10:41:24 AM
If you are talking about a project akin to the Pendolino ie backers put the money up to prove a market exists then you are probably looking at a relatively small run and therefore a higher price.  I understand the temptation to compare to the Desiro, but I don't think that is in anyway realistic - a more realistic comparison is the Brighton Belle 200 for 5 coaches.

Detail parts and pantographs are not the main driver of price - that is tooling costs and numbers produced.

RRP or not is a non-discussion for a project where sales are direct (and not via retail channels) like the Pendolino.

Cheers, Mike
Title: Re: Electrostars
Post by: Claude Dreyfus on January 24, 2015, 10:48:53 AM
Crudely speaking* that means the Belle is about 40.00 a carriage. That's 160.00 in Electrostar terms...

* I know it doesn't quite breakdown that way as the carriages won't be evenly priced (motor, cab ends etc) and the 'extra' carriage in the Belle would be an unpowered trailer.

If we landed at around the 175-180 mark that would probably be realistic.
Title: Re: Electrostars
Post by: Claude Dreyfus on January 24, 2015, 10:52:44 AM
And how late was it tonight Claude?!


Better than before, but still ten minutes down into Pulborough...
Title: Re: Electrostars
Post by: Ben A on January 24, 2015, 12:04:57 PM
Hello all,

Thanks for all the input around price - some interesting contrasts in what people are prepared to pay or feel is reasonable.

A couple of observations going forward:

Firstly, as Mike said idea of variable pricing is irrelevant.  For a subscription model the price would be set by the tooling cost combined with the production of a limited number - probably 1000 models.  The manufacturer gets to keep the tooling afterward and can rerun the model, and make a profit, and a specidied time in the future - probably not sooner than 2 years.  Even then, manufacturer RRP is likely to be significantly higher when the model does arrive.

Secondly, only the pre-subscribed number of models would be produced.  This is helpful because it focuses minds and encourages quick pledging (no waiting for the price to "come down later") but also it supports speculative investors who can see that once the models are available they are likely to sell for a premium to those who missed out.

In this instance, speculative investors are beneficial to the hobby as their cash is as good as anyone else's at helping a model get over the threshold to being funded.

I am sure there is a way to manufacture some of these more "niche" products that don't make sense for the big boys, but realistically they are going to cost more.

So the question is:  Do you want another two 90 Class 66 locomotives, or do you want to put that money toward a 180 Electrostar?

cheers

Ben A.
Title: Re: Electrostars
Post by: Claude Dreyfus on January 24, 2015, 12:17:44 PM
Ben,

From my point of view, 180.00 for an Electrostar beats 2x 66s every time. Given the nature of how these units operate, I suspect pitched at around this price many people may go for at least a couple.

On a more general point, if (emphasise IF again) this goes ahead this would be one of the most requested units going into production, and one that will have a very strong barometre on the popularity of EMUs... I don't recall the class 350 topping the polls on any wishlist in the same way the Electrostar has. We have an opportunity to follow-up the Pendolino project with another demonstration that we do put our money where our mouth is when it comes to something we really want.
Title: Re: Electrostars
Post by: acko22 on January 24, 2015, 12:55:37 PM
Like Claude says if it went ahead, I know I would be willing to pay 180 pound for it happily, at the end of the day like any kickstart you have to speculate to accumulate (this time put a little extra cash in to get more models you REALLY want.

From earlier in the thread a mention was made to liveries, I think that all 3 liveries been used would be the best option as it totally opens up the geographical coverage of the Electrostar, plus it allows other to maybe use rule 1.
Personally I am modeling the NW on a Fictional electrified Transpennie route and while there are no 377 classes up this way if there was a model in the Thameslink First colours then it would fit in as First run the Transpennine routes.

If things were to go forward personally with all that to have the models in all 3 colour with a bag of interchangeable bits and Pantograph if you wanted to fit it would be an excellent offering, as it allows everyone who is modeling the era and area to get exactly the right model and rule 1 buyers to adapt it to better suit what they may be looking for.
Title: Re: Electrostars
Post by: IST on January 24, 2015, 01:34:49 PM
So the question is:  Do you want another two 90 Class 66 locomotives, or do you want to put that money toward a 180 Electrostar?

Simply question, simply answer:
Electrostar.
Title: Re: Electrostars
Post by: UPINSMOKE on January 24, 2015, 02:19:52 PM
I would go for the Electrostar every time but then again I am a big fan, as they run in the region I live in, and am modeling :D :D
Title: Re: Electrostars
Post by: BudgieJane on January 24, 2015, 05:13:17 PM
So the question is:  Do you want another two 90 Class 66 locomotives, or do you want to put that money toward a 180 Electrostar?

cheers

Ben A.

Definitely Electrostar. And as I have said before, I would like a dozen of them, so that would be over 2000 of Electrostars.
Title: Re: Electrostars
Post by: PostModN66 on January 24, 2015, 05:38:01 PM
I'll take a couple of Electrostars.

But I've never paid anything like 90 for a 66 - and I have about 10 of them!!

Cheers  Jon  :)
Title: Re: Electrostars
Post by: Ben A on January 24, 2015, 06:25:52 PM
Hi Jon,

You're right - my mistake.

Hattons are currently listing 371-396 Class 66/9 diesel 66731 'InterhubGB' in GBRf livery at 89.21.

So let me rephrase that:  Would you rather have two of those or a high-spec, laser-scanned 4-car Electrostar for 178.42.    ;)

cheers

Ben A.
Title: Re: Electrostars
Post by: PostModN66 on January 24, 2015, 06:30:11 PM
You're right - my mistake.
Hattons are currently listing 371-396 Class 66/9 diesel 66731 'InterhubGB' in GBRf livery at 89.21.

So let me rephrase that:  Would you rather have two of those or a high-spec, laser-scanned 4-car Electrostar for 178.42.    ;)


I'll definitely go for the electrostar(s) - and keep looking out for the 66s I want to dip below the magic 50 mark......top priority is the "Sorento" livery!!

We live in hope!   Cheers Jon  :)
Title: Re: Electrostars
Post by: njee20 on January 24, 2015, 11:08:09 PM
Yep, I'd definitely pay 180 for an Electrostar tomorrow.
Title: Re: Electrostars
Post by: UPINSMOKE on January 24, 2015, 11:13:31 PM
Yep, I'd definitely pay 180 for an Electrostar tomorrow.

I don't think it will be here that quick :D 8)
Title: Re: Electrostars
Post by: Greybeema on January 25, 2015, 08:23:56 AM
I'd be up for one maybe a second depending on funds at the time.

At least they run on the North Kent line more frequently than my last purchase - 1930's Brighton Belle...  And I don't need anymore(ish) 66's....
Title: Re: Electrostars
Post by: Pengi on January 25, 2015, 08:39:52 AM
I would buy a high-spec, laser-scanned 4-car Electrostar for 178.42 in Southern livery
Title: Re: Electrostars
Post by: Tank on January 26, 2015, 09:11:46 AM
I'd certainly be happy with 180 a set. :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Electrostars
Post by: cornish yorkie on January 26, 2015, 07:16:04 PM
Hello all, I would agree that sounds a pretty fair price.
  regards Derek.
Title: Re: Electrostars
Post by: Claude Dreyfus on February 04, 2015, 10:29:32 PM
In view of the Revolution Trains thread, and the various sub-threads popping up regarding new product suggestions, it might be an idea to crystallise many of the comments on this thread and run the Electrostar through the same criteria:

Do you think there are 1000 modellers to buy one? 

If we are talking units (of sale, as opposed to EMUs!), then yes, I am reasonably confident that 1,000 units would be achievable. Whilst some modellers may get a single set, a large number may well be interested in two or three

Would they accept a sensible price?

I think much of the discussion on this thread suggests that sensible price of around about 175.00 would be acceptable. Obviously the price-point has a number of factors...

Do you know where we could get proper drawings, or is there a real one left to laser scan to be confident of accuracy?

Presumably plans and blueprints are available from Bombardier, and there are plenty of units out there for scanning. Also, Southern appear to be a very image-conscious company, who advertise quite widely. They may well welcome (or at least be receptive to) an initiative of this nature...don't forget the 171 has been produced both in 00 and N (and due out again this year). Not so sure about First-group however...FCC did not turn out to be the happiest experience for them. The general thrust of this thread is that the 'second-generation' light cluster (377140-164, 377/2, 377/4, 377/5, 375/8, 375/9) design would be a suitable candidate; perhaps with the 377/2 (with its wide sphere of operation) being a initial option.

Given current N Gauge technology would there be any serious manufacturing compromises

No, I don't believe so. In fact there are little or no compromises as far as I can see...for example the tinted glass effectively masks the fact the motor may well fill one of the carriages.
Title: Re: Electrostars
Post by: UPINSMOKE on February 04, 2015, 10:48:37 PM
In view of the Revolution Trains thread, and the various sub-threads popping up regarding new product suggestions, it might be an idea to crystallise many of the comments on this thread and run the Electrostar through the same criteria:

Do you think there are 1000 modellers to buy one? 

If we are talking units (of sale, as opposed to EMUs!), then yes, I am reasonably confident that 1,000 units would be achievable. Whilst some modellers may get a single set, a large number may well be interested in two or three

Would they accept a sensible price?

I think much of the discussion on this thread suggests that sensible price of around about 175.00 would be acceptable. Obviously the price-point has a number of factors...

Do you know where we could get proper drawings, or is there a real one left to laser scan to be confident of accuracy?

Presumably plans and blueprints are available from Bombardier, and there are plenty of units out there for scanning. Also, Southern appear to be a very image-conscious company, who advertise quite widely. They may well welcome (or at least be receptive to) an initiative of this nature...don't forget the 171 has been produced both in 00 and N (and due out again this year). Not so sure about First-group however...FCC did not turn out to be the happiest experience for them. The general thrust of this thread is that the 'second-generation' light cluster (377140-164, 377/2, 377/4, 377/5, 375/8, 375/9) design would be a suitable candidate; perhaps with the 377/2 (with its wide sphere of operation) being a initial option.

Given current N Gauge technology would there be any serious manufacturing compromises

No, I don't believe so. In fact there are little or no compromises as far as I can see...for example the tinted glass effectively masks the fact the motor may well fill one of the carriages.

I for one would fully support this venture with purchasing 1 or 2 of these if they were to be made. Perhaps we should have a poll to gauge interest it certainly would not hurt doing one. Over to you Claude Dreyfus  ;) :D :NGaugersRule:
Title: Re: Electrostars
Post by: acko22 on February 04, 2015, 10:54:14 PM
Claude,

While not the right area for me (technically) If an option came for one in First Livery I would be after one maybe 2!
Title: Re: Electrostars
Post by: woodbury22uk on February 05, 2015, 08:11:22 AM
I would be a supporter for more than 2 units, the extras  depending on liveries offered.
Title: Re: Electrostars
Post by: Brooksy on February 05, 2015, 08:29:53 AM
Would they accept a sensible price?

I think much of the discussion on this thread suggests that sensible price of around about 175.00 would be acceptable. Obviously the price-point has a number of factors...

I would buy one at 175. Two if the price was 125 or lower. Southeastern in my livery of choice but not bothered about choice of sub class.

Given current N Gauge technology would there be any serious manufacturing compromises

No, I don't believe so. In fact there are little or no compromises as far as I can see...for example the tinted glass effectively masks the fact the motor may well fill one of the carriages.

One question I have is about motors. Is there a possibilty to have a high quality lower spec motor? The motor only has to be able to propel four carriages to a scale 90-100mph. Discounting the possibility of dummy units being produced, there is no reason to add extra carriages. If two are joined together to make an 8-car then of course it would then have two motors. Is there currently a difference in the spec of MU and locomotive motors from the likes of Dapol and Farish?
Title: Re: Electrostars
Post by: Ben A on February 05, 2015, 09:41:51 AM
Hi Brooksy,

I have no idea what individual motors cost but suspect in the quantities the manufacturers use it's a tiny fraction of the overall cost of the model.

My understanding is the cost of a motor is a function of the price of the raw materials, the time taken on design and the process of manufacture.

The specification will include the power expected, plus a notional figure for consistency and reliability.

The cheapest motors will be assembled quickly and with harsher tolerances. Thus their performance will be less consistent.  It's possible to get a nice smooth cheap motor, but if you're manufacturing hundreds of models, and want to do more than rely on pot luck for your customers, then you need to specify better consistency and reliability. This means at the factory the motors are assembled more carefully, and tested against your parameters.  These processes add to the unit cost.

This is why I don't think a low spec, high quality motor exists.  I'd be happy to be proved wrong though!

Cheers

Ben A.
Title: Re: Electrostars
Post by: ScottyStitch on February 05, 2015, 10:23:01 AM
Would they accept a sensible price?

I think much of the discussion on this thread suggests that sensible price of around about 175.00 would be acceptable. Obviously the price-point has a number of factors...

I would buy one at 175. Two if the price was 125 or lower. Southeastern in my livery of choice but not bothered about choice of sub class.

Given current N Gauge technology would there be any serious manufacturing compromises

No, I don't believe so. In fact there are little or no compromises as far as I can see...for example the tinted glass effectively masks the fact the motor may well fill one of the carriages.

One question I have is about motors. Is there a possibilty to have a high quality lower spec motor? The motor only has to be able to propel four carriages to a scale 90-100mph. Discounting the possibility of dummy units being produced, there is no reason to add extra carriages. If two are joined together to make an 8-car then of course it would then have two motors. Is there currently a difference in the spec of MU and locomotive motors from the likes of Dapol and Farish?

I wouldn't think that, on such a small run of models, 125 is realistic for this type of unit.  Using PostModN's research and forumla, from another related thread, a four car unit, even with only one powered unit calculates out at 168. Bear in mind that's based on larger production runs of already released models without the extra cost for a "niche" model factored in. Even adding a 1/4 for the premium, you're still looking at 200+

I would say build it right rather than build it cheap. The price will be what the price is for getting it right.

(To be clear, I mean "niche" in the sense that the manufacturers don't consider there are enough sales to justify a full blown launch.)

Title: Re: Electrostars
Post by: Brooksy on February 05, 2015, 11:46:24 AM
I would say build it right rather than build it cheap. The price will be what the price is for getting it right.

(To be clear, I mean "niche" in the sense that the manufacturers don't consider there are enough sales to justify a full blown launch.)

I've given my opinion on the effect of retail price on total number of sales a couple of times. We'll just have to disagree and I'll say no more on the matter :zippedmouth:

I'm still in for one at that price and looking forward to being proved wrong and receiving my electrostar  :claphappy:

Title: Suggestion for RevolutioN - Electrostar 377/2
Post by: UPINSMOKE on February 06, 2015, 12:00:40 AM
Right I am not one who is any good at pitching. So I hope you don't mind I have gleaned most of relevant information from the Electrostar thread started recently from others who are far more qualified than me. I really do want this to be a contender to be produced. So I decided to start this poll. If its not correct please put me right.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In view of the Revolution Trains thread, and the various sub-threads popping up regarding new product suggestions, it might be an idea to crystallise many of the comments on this thread and run the Electrostar through the same criteria:

Do you think there are 1000 modellers to buy one? 

If we are talking units (of sale, as opposed to EMUs!), then yes, I am reasonably confident that 1,000 units would be achievable. Whilst some modellers may get a single set, a large number may well be interested in two or three

Would they accept a sensible price?

I think much of the discussion on this thread suggests that sensible price of around about 175.00 would be acceptable. Obviously the price-point has a number of factors...

Do you know where we could get proper drawings, or is there a real one left to laser scan to be confident of accuracy?

Presumably plans and blueprints are available from Bombardier, and there are plenty of units out there for scanning. Also, Southern appear to be a very image-conscious company, who advertise quite widely. They may well welcome (or at least be receptive to) an initiative of this nature...don't forget the 171 has been produced both in 00 and N (and due out again this year). Not so sure about First-group however...FCC did not turn out to be the happiest experience for them. The general thrust of this thread is that the 'second-generation' light cluster (377140-164, 377/2, 377/4, 377/5, 375/8, 375/9) design would be a suitable candidate; perhaps with the 377/2 (with its wide sphere of operation) being a initial option.

Given current N Gauge technology would there be any serious manufacturing compromises

No, I don't believe so. In fact there are little or no compromises as far as I can see...for example the tinted glass effectively masks the fact the motor may well fill one of the carriages.
Title: Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN - Electrostar 377/2
Post by: acko22 on February 06, 2015, 12:30:48 AM
I would be up for one!
Like I have put on my poll depends on livery.
But from what I understand with regards the whole R&D side of life the livery is the easiest bit!
Title: Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN - Electrostar 377/2
Post by: Pengi on February 06, 2015, 10:19:18 AM
My preference is for Southern Livery. I'd get one in another livery, if Southern wasn't produced, and hopefully Electra would produce vinyls.

Then I can recreate this scene especially as the Southern livery will disappear and become what looks to be a very bland TSGN livery

(http://i1114.photobucket.com/albums/k540/PendythePendolino/Visitors%20to%20East%20Hampshire/DSC_0096_zps73661f59.jpg)
Title: Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN - Electrostar 377/2
Post by: Greybeema on February 06, 2015, 06:46:35 PM
As said before - livery is that last of the issues but I would go more for something like this:-

http://railwayherald.com/imagingcentre/view/367679/TW (http://railwayherald.com/imagingcentre/view/367679/TW)
Title: Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN - Electrostar 377/2
Post by: Tank on February 06, 2015, 07:01:23 PM
Southern for me also.  I'd buy two - hopefully!
Title: Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN - Electrostar 377/2
Post by: Greybeema on February 06, 2015, 07:26:25 PM
TBH - I think I'll be the only one who wants one in SE livery, so I am quite willing to vinyl it up myself esp if I can get a blank (non liveried) version..
Title: Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN - Electrostar 377/2
Post by: JBQFC on February 06, 2015, 08:00:41 PM
i would have two each in southern and FCC
john
Title: Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN - Electrostar 377/2
Post by: Farmer chap on February 06, 2015, 09:06:23 PM
Hi,

Wrong there Mr Greybeema, I would buy a couple of 375's in South Eastern colours, however I will accept a

compromise and re-livery if I need to.
Title: Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN - Electrostar 377/2
Post by: Jameswgm on February 07, 2015, 11:30:12 AM
Electrostar would be a definite purchase for me. Preference would be South Eastern.
Title: Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN - Electrostar 377/2
Post by: Stuart7358 on February 07, 2015, 12:57:13 PM
Certainly would want one unit in Southern livery, see them so much I tend to over look them, even thought they are the quiet work horse around here.
Title: Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN - Electrostar 377/2
Post by: Claude Dreyfus on February 07, 2015, 02:35:28 PM
At least two for me...perhaps even more.

Yes, I think the 377/2 is a great initial choice, as they cover the widest range (Thameslink allocated ones can make their way over to Sevenoaks). I suspect you would need to include the DC-only sets as well, or else you will end up with a limited number of sets to choose from. It is a pity the SE duel-voltage sets have the earlier light-clusters (which are significantly different).

That said, SE-liveried units did spread their wings a little. This is a class 375/9 unit (leading a 12 carriage train) pulling out of Pulborough with the 17:47 London Bridge - Bognor Regis service on 14 April 2009 (so for Pengi's benefit, it would have passed Arundel Castle). They were being used to cover a shortage of 377s - Southern 377/2s were with FCC whilst they were waiting for their own 377/5s (which are actually Southern units on loan).

(http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd417/Claude_Dreyfus/SET375-1_zps6bb28a27.jpeg)
Title: Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN - Electrostar 377/2
Post by: cornish yorkie on February 08, 2015, 09:53:33 PM
Count me in for at least one maybe more in FCC
  regards Derek.
Title: Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN - Electrostar 377/2
Post by: Gavin on February 14, 2015, 07:11:11 AM
I'd like to have at least 2 8 car sets and potentially a couple of 4's  the challenge would be having to purchase them in one hit. Given that it's likely to be 12 + months from pledge to delivery that's doable but think I would still stick at 4 for the first wave.
Title: Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN - Electrostar 377/2
Post by: captainelectra on February 24, 2015, 09:38:20 PM
There's no reason why Southern, FCC (Thameslink) and South-Eastern versions couldn't be accommodated with minimal extra tooling. Just go for the later headlight cluster.

The Southern and FCC versions have AC capability, so even more potential. With Class 700s due to take over on Thameslink and Great Northern in a couple of years, who knows where the 377s will end up next...up north or on the Great Western? I believe that some may be coming to the Great Northern soon to add to the variety in Peterborough.
Title: Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN - Electrostar 377/2
Post by: Ben A on February 25, 2015, 12:14:20 AM

Hello Gavin,

If we tried an Electrostar then getting 800-1000 expressions of interest that translate into orders is going to be a tall order.

And even if we managed it, I suspect that whoever inherits the tooling afterwards - though in theory they could offer more after two years - may well feel the market is exhausted for several years.

I suspect it would be a long time before there is another "wave" and as with the Pendolino if we were to offer this model we'd be sure to do several different running numbers in any given livery, if there was demand.

cheers

Ben A.
Title: Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN - Electrostar 377/2
Post by: ScottyStitch on February 25, 2015, 07:36:32 AM

Hello Gavin,

If we tried an Electrostar then getting 800-1000 expressions of interest that translate into orders is going to be a tall order.

And even if we managed it, I suspect that whoever inherits the tooling afterwards - though in theory they could offer more after two years - may well feel the market is exhausted for several years.

I suspect it would be a long time before there is another "wave" and as with the Pendolino if we were to offer this model we'd be sure to do several different running numbers in any given livery, if there was demand.

cheers

Ben A.

I think this is entirely true. We should treat any future project as a one off, with no follow on batches, because there is every chance it could prove to be just that!.
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