N Gauge Forum

Product Reviews => N Gauge Locos and Rolling Stock Reviews => Dapol Steam => Topic started by: Gooner1953 on September 13, 2013, 10:25:33 PM

Title: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: Gooner1953 on September 13, 2013, 10:25:33 PM
Did anyone by chance ask Dapol at the weekend when we can expect to see these new releases on our layouts? I'm trying to avoid having to buy 2 or 3 of the Farish versions unless I really have to! :worried:
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: woodbury22uk on September 14, 2013, 11:14:57 AM
The official position is:-

http://dapol.co.uk/index.php?route=product/category&path=179_298_300_345 (http://dapol.co.uk/index.php?route=product/category&path=179_298_300_345)
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: Gooner1953 on September 14, 2013, 11:21:50 AM
The official position is:-

[url]http://dapol.co.uk/index.php?route=product/category&path=179_298_300_345[/url] ([url]http://dapol.co.uk/index.php?route=product/category&path=179_298_300_345[/url])

Thanks Mike, not seen that page before!

Cheers
Nick
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: Newportnobby on March 23, 2015, 09:34:41 PM
Sorry - hope I didn't get anyone excited and thinking some progress has been made as I've just checked the 'Dapol Progress' site (there's a misnomer if ever there was one) and it's still at CAD/CAM review stage.
Out of curiosity I just checked when I placed my pre-order and it was 1st May 2012!!!!
Price then was £95.95 and I see it's now at £105.00.
I reckon I'll be old and doddery before it arrives............oh wait, I am already ::)
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: Chetcombe on March 24, 2015, 04:51:15 AM
Well you did get me excited :doh: But only for a moment... :'(

Unfortunately it seems (based on reading another thread) that the pre-order price may not even be honored :veryangry:

So plenty of time for a few more price hikes before we see them in retail stores...
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: silly moo on March 24, 2015, 05:29:28 AM
I think I will be old and doddery before they arrive as well. I have a Farish Merchant Navy on order and that seems to be taking forever to arrive as well.
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: Bealman on March 24, 2015, 06:08:46 AM
When it comes out you can celebrate and get yerself another new hip, Mick  :D
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: Luke Piewalker on March 24, 2015, 06:56:06 AM
It didn't take them that long to come up with the original...  :-X
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: Greybeema on March 24, 2015, 07:46:20 AM
It could be issued in a job lot with the Schools and the GF Merchant Navy.   ???

At least this way you have enough time to save your pennies....
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: Newportnobby on March 24, 2015, 10:32:00 AM
It could be issued in a job lot with the Schools and the GF Merchant Navy.   ???

At least this way you have enough time to save your pennies....

I have 2 x rebuilt MN (old Farish) and have the N class on pre order but am not after a Schools. I just wanted a spam can and, being very patriotic, 'Spitfire' fitted the bill admirably.
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: austinbob on March 24, 2015, 11:14:20 AM
I'm thinking of changing my Dapol version to a Farish version which is due May-June. Although the Farish version is quite a bit more expensive.
 :ngauge:
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: Karhedron on March 24, 2015, 11:43:57 AM
Trouble for me is that the Merchant Navies didn't normally run west of Exeter and usually had at least 12 on. The Light Pacifics were more modest machines and would be perfectly feasible with just a 3-coach set. Sadly the latest I have heard for the Light pacifics is that they are still around 12 months away. :(
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: Dorsetmike on March 24, 2015, 12:03:47 PM
Now if you modelled 1930s you wouldn't need to worry about spam cans, just stock up on T9s, 700s, and 0395s with a few M7s thrown in and a few moguls if/when they get here, do a bit of hacking for more Drummond and Adams classes; and all in a nice dark olive livery, none of that hideous Malachite.
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: Newportnobby on March 24, 2015, 12:20:28 PM
Trouble is, Mike, I'm modelling the transition era in Oxfordshire so there's a limit I can get away with - hence wanting a late crest B.o.B.
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: Dorsetmike on March 24, 2015, 01:57:29 PM
Trouble is, Mike, I'm modelling the transition era in Oxfordshire so there's a limit I can get away with - hence wanting a late crest B.o.B.


No accountin' fer taste  (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-fc/whistling.gif)

 (http://www.animateit.net/data/media/june2010/avatar.gif)
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: dodger on March 24, 2015, 08:39:57 PM
Trouble for me is that the Merchant Navies didn't normally run west of Exeter and usually had at least 12 on. The Light Pacifics were more modest machines and would be perfectly feasible with just a 3-coach set. Sadly the latest I have heard for the Light pacifics is that they are still around 12 months away. :(

The only time I saw Merchants on short trains was between Bournemouth and Weymouth when working the express from Waterloo.

Dodger
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: CarriageShed on March 25, 2015, 12:46:58 PM
Trouble is, Mike, I'm modelling the transition era in Oxfordshire so there's a limit I can get away with - hence wanting a late crest B.o.B.

Given the S&DJR stories of unreliability for the smaller spam cans, you could say your BoB failed and was replaced en route to Oxfordshire - either by a couple of trusty 4Fs if it's coming via the S&D or a T9 if via Salisbury.  ;)
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: Dorsetmike on March 25, 2015, 01:30:15 PM
Pete, drifting off the subject a bit, normal route for ex LSWR lines to get to Oxford was via Basingstoke, Reading, and would be trains for Birkenhead, or York and Newcastle,   for Central and Eastern sections of SR traffic was normally routed Rugby, Willesden, Acton, Kensington to Clapham Jnct.

in the 20s and early 30s T9s could get as far as Birmingham Snow Hill, then mid 30s replaced by N15s or moguls until post WW2 then WC/BoB N15 or Nelson, also sometimes standard 5MT into the 50s and 60s. It's also possible that the occasional Schools and MN made the trip.

When the Pines express was re routed in the 60s that could have had any of the same classes as above for that period, whatever Bournemouth shed chose to deploy.
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: Karhedron on March 25, 2015, 03:46:44 PM
The Light Pacifics were more modest machines and would be perfectly feasible with just a 3-coach set.


Ha ha, looks like I don't even need a 3-coach set. In what has to be the biggest case of overkill on the railways, Nļ34069 Hawkinge is handling a single Brake Composite as the Up train from Illfracombe.  :laugh:

(http://www.semgonline.com/steam/pics/mm_34069.jpg)
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: Newportnobby on March 25, 2015, 04:15:07 PM
Thanks for that pic, Matt.
Knowing my luck it will be all the Dapol version can haul :worried:
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: dodger on March 25, 2015, 06:06:44 PM
They also had a regular single coach return trip between Wadebridge and Padstow, although if the ACE was late a Beattie well tank often deputised.

Dodger
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: Dorsetmike on March 25, 2015, 07:40:39 PM
In the 60s when M7s were being withdrawn the Bournemouth - Brockenhurst  service run over the "Old Road" via Wimborne and Ringwood which had been an M7 push pull would see WC/BoB or BR standards hauling the 2 coach push pull sets.
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: portland-docks on April 06, 2015, 01:17:10 PM
i want a merchant navy, but my problem is, theres no merchant navys preserved in spam can form!

all spam cans are either BoBs or West Countrys...i doubt i could change the name into a west country or something could i?
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: NeMo on April 06, 2015, 01:36:12 PM
i want a merchant navy, but my problem is, theres no merchant navys preserved in spam can form!

Yet.

None of the Duchesses was preserved in streamlined form either. But now there is! (http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:6229_Duchess_of_Hamilton_at_the_National_Railway_Museum.jpg)

Cheers, NeMo
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: portland-docks on April 06, 2015, 01:59:19 PM
id be surprised if any of the merchant navys were turned back into spam cans!
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: Roy L S on April 06, 2015, 03:33:04 PM
id be surprised if any of the merchant navys were turned back into spam cans!

I would be surprised too as unlike the Duchess which basically just needed a streamlined casing, the Merchant Navy would need a number of mechanical modifications, not least the reinstatement of the rather unique Bullied chain-driven valve gear!

Regards

Roy
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: NeMo on April 06, 2015, 04:11:19 PM
Gents, my comment was tongue in cheek, really!

But hang on a second... they built an entire A1 pacific from scratch. Compared to that, messing about with a few chains and pipes is nothing... surely???

NeMo
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: silly moo on April 06, 2015, 04:13:30 PM
Don't forget Rule 1  :D
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: fisherman on April 06, 2015, 04:22:51 PM
I bet  it's  them  chain  driven  gears  causing  the problem..
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: Karhedron on April 06, 2015, 09:20:44 PM
It has been proposed to restore 35009 Shaw Saville Line in original air-smoothed condition. I don't know if it will ever happen but the intention could be enough to invoke Rule #1. ;)
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: portland-docks on April 07, 2015, 06:27:12 AM
Good enough for me ;)
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: Greybeema on April 07, 2015, 07:41:03 AM
My brother has worked on unrebuilt BoBs & WCs and has said that the chain drive actually works really well. 

The problem with them was the oil bath seals and some of the parts within but with modern engineering techniques not available to Bullied and carefully caulked seals then they are pretty reliable..

Tbh I thnk the MNs look better with the casing off..
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: Karhedron on April 07, 2015, 10:03:57 AM
I like the Bulleid Pacifics in original "Spam Can" form. After rebuilding they ended up looking rather like the BR Standards. Smart enough but rather anonymous. The originals were so striking they could never be mistaken for anything else.
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: ODRAILS on September 17, 2015, 04:13:43 PM
I bounced this old post as it has the appropriate title for my comment.
I was considering a pre-order for an early BR version of the air-smoothed version of the Bulleid Light Pacific and found that only 34030 and 34066 are being produced by Dapol and both are stated to have the late BR crest so there's a huge period gap between the Southern malachite green liveried models (up to 1948 with SR nos. and SOUTHERN on the tender) and the late BR crest which started being used in 1957.
Are the Dapol livery choices fixed in stone?
Ian
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: portland-docks on September 17, 2015, 05:08:01 PM
the livery choices seen are what they would like to do, but until the first painted prototype comes out anything can change.

best bet is contact joel at dapol and ask if they will add or change one of the liveries to your era
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: Karhedron on September 18, 2015, 08:44:19 AM
I believe things are not set in stone. IIRC one of the Granges was changed from the original announcement when it was found that the one they were planning to model ran with a tender variant that Dapol do not make.

I contacted Dapol last year and suggested that an Early Crest model would probably be popular. They thanked me for the suggestion but made no commitment so I guess we will have to wait and see what transpires.

If anyone else feels like contacting Dapol with this suggestion then go ahead. The more input they get, the better the chances that they will feel there is enough interest to justify a model.
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: CarriageShed on September 19, 2015, 09:53:19 PM
The Class N changed relatively late too, from a late slope-sided tender version to the earlier (and more widely used) straight tender version.
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: Zaphras on September 22, 2015, 04:04:54 PM
Hi

I notice that on Dapol's Facebook page in response to a question about when to expect these loco's that it was likely to be end 2016, because, and this is a news to me, it will use a new loco-mounted motor and new gear train and this was delaying things.

Does anyone know anything about this new mechanism?

Martin
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: portland-docks on September 22, 2015, 04:07:19 PM
That is news to me! Hopefully we will get to look at the prototype up close so if i do i will let you all know!
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: Karhedron on September 22, 2015, 04:15:07 PM
News to me as well but very welcome. Dapol's tender drive is better than farish's IMO as it avoids the problem of locking valve gear. But loco drive is definitely superior and with Farish now switching to coreless motors mounted in the loco, I think it is a smart move of Dapol to upgrade their technology to match. The Bulleid Pacifics offer plenty of space for gears and motors, particularly the air-smoothed versions.

I was hoping to see the light pacifics a bit sooner but at the end of the day, it is only a hobby. I will just have to find something else to spend my money on in the meantime.  :pint:
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: ScottyStitch on September 22, 2015, 06:15:40 PM
I have to say, I do fancy a rebuilt example, but with DJM's Class 17s, RevolutioN's Pendolino, potentially their Class 21s (hope against hope it gets the go ahead) and the latest batch of Farish maroon Mk1s, all on the financial radar,  late 2016 suits me just fine!!  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: leachsprite4 on September 22, 2015, 06:45:27 PM
ooh a big shift from Dapol, and explains the delay, a little  :uneasy: as it will be the first tender engine to appear with this drive function by Dapol so I hope they get this right as its massive release for them. More important these are top of my list of most wanted locos list.

Still happy days its progressing  :claphappy:
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: Les1952 on October 03, 2015, 11:25:58 PM
Announced by Andy and Richard at today's Dapol Open day.

The Bulleid will be the first of the next generation steam locos with coreless motor in the loco, and will be arranged so it can be DCC Sound fitted easily, though it was NOT said if there will be a DCC Sound version available factory-fitted.

There is work going on testing the mechanism to destruction to factor in improvements before tooling up.

They were hoping to get at least to decorated samples by next year's Open Day, but getting this right will take time as it is a generation shift in Dapol steamers.

Les
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: silly moo on October 04, 2015, 05:49:07 AM
I'm very pleased to hear about the change to a loco mounted motor, also that they are taking their time to get things right.  I'll be looking forward to these new locos, I just hope I can afford them when they eventually arrive.

 :NGaugersRule:
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: Karhedron on February 22, 2016, 12:49:50 PM
Just had an update via Hattons that these are due in November/December 2016.

Doesn't quite beat the Ivatt 2-6-0 from farish in terms of development time but it is getting close.
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: Les1952 on March 08, 2016, 11:26:58 PM
Just had an update via Hattons that these are due in November/December 2016.

Doesn't quite beat the Ivatt 2-6-0 from farish in terms of development time but it is getting close.

I wouldn't hold my breath. I had four release dates from Hattons for the Ivatt..

Seriously, it will take as long as it takes, but I would imagine that any new announcements made THIS year would be a lot quicker to materialise as the development testing will have already been done.
Les
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: Bob G on March 09, 2016, 08:16:37 PM
I bounced this old post as it has the appropriate title for my comment.
I was considering a pre-order for an early BR version of the air-smoothed version of the Bulleid Light Pacific and found that only 34030 and 34066 are being produced by Dapol and both are stated to have the late BR crest so there's a huge period gap between the Southern malachite green liveried models (up to 1948 with SR nos. and SOUTHERN on the tender) and the late BR crest which started being used in 1957.
Are the Dapol livery choices fixed in stone?
Ian

Ian
I know this is a bit late to reply to your post, but Osborns are doing Bideford as an air smoothed early crest version. So it should (probably) have the streamlined tender of the Southern era and not the rebuilt one. IIRC they ran without rebuilt tenders for about five years post war. That's why Farish never did late crests on the air smoothed tender models.
HTH
Bob
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: Karhedron on March 09, 2016, 09:22:58 PM
I am pretty sure that Dapol's selections are not set in stone. They recently announced that they were planning to release a Schools in Maunsell livery despite it not being part of their original line-up.

But if they do not see sense, Osborns will be a good choice.
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: Chetcombe on March 10, 2016, 03:49:24 AM
I am pretty sure that Dapol's selections are not set in stone.

But at this rate I may well be buried under one by the time this model gets to market... ;)
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: Snowwolflair on January 17, 2017, 07:02:20 PM
https://railsofsheffield.com/battle-of-britain-class-fighter-command-21c164-southern-railways-green-un-rebuilt-nd208a-dapol-JJJA18277.aspx (https://railsofsheffield.com/battle-of-britain-class-fighter-command-21c164-southern-railways-green-un-rebuilt-nd208a-dapol-JJJA18277.aspx)

Rails of Sheffield are showing them as "Soon" what do they know we do not!
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: Karhedron on January 17, 2017, 07:04:15 PM
 :laughabovepost:

Apparently they know something even Dapol doesn't!  :dunce:
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: Snowwolflair on January 17, 2017, 07:05:32 PM
http://www.hattons.co.uk/59019/Dapol_ND208A_Battle_of_Britain_Class_4_6_2_un_rebuilt_21C164_in_SR_green/StockDetail.aspx (http://www.hattons.co.uk/59019/Dapol_ND208A_Battle_of_Britain_Class_4_6_2_un_rebuilt_21C164_in_SR_green/StockDetail.aspx)

Hattons as well!
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: Snowwolflair on January 17, 2017, 07:06:32 PM
http://www.gaugemaster.com/item_details.asp?code=DAND208A&style=&strType=&Mcode=Dapol+ND208A (http://www.gaugemaster.com/item_details.asp?code=DAND208A&style=&strType=&Mcode=Dapol+ND208A)

And Gaugemaster!
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: Karhedron on January 17, 2017, 07:08:56 PM
I virtual beer says someone at Dapol had fat fingers but I am curious enough to go fishing on their FB page and find out.

Wish me luck!  :computerangry:
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: Carmont on January 17, 2017, 07:31:41 PM
I virtual beer says someone at Dapol had fat fingers but I am curious enough to go fishing on their FB page and find out.

Wish me luck!  :computerangry:

Break a leg! (not a cardan shaft....)
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: longbow on January 17, 2017, 07:53:18 PM
Those pre-order pages have been there for months.
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: Newportnobby on January 17, 2017, 08:37:21 PM
I'm still suspicious the Spam Can price is £116.10. This is a good price for a pacific if Farish's latest offerings have been anything to go by but I can't believe it won't rise. Hope I'm proved wrong!
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: MKP on January 17, 2017, 08:57:57 PM
I think you will be looking nearer the £150 mark for this one.

No updates on timescale from Dapol for our 'BIDEFORD' version
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: Newportnobby on January 17, 2017, 08:59:32 PM
I think you will be looking nearer the £150 mark for this one.


Full RRP or £150 discounted please?
If the latter, I may be cancelling.
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: exmouthcraig on January 17, 2017, 09:04:56 PM
By the time their delivered muck we will be paying £100 for a Costa Coffee so they will be nearer the £700 mark 😄😄😄
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: Snowwolflair on January 17, 2017, 09:11:48 PM
No, even coffee crapped by civits wont be that price any time soon.
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: MKP on January 17, 2017, 11:42:55 PM
I think you will be looking nearer the £150 mark for this one.


Full RRP or £150 discounted please?
If the latter, I may be cancelling.

RRP for Valance A4 is £151.56 so that would be the figure I would suggest for the Westcountry at the moment, would still be less than the Farish Merchant Navy RRP £164.95

I will make an early predication and guess that with discount, most will go for around £127.50
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: longbow on January 18, 2017, 12:01:05 AM
Yes, although both the A4 and MN were tooled prior to the swoon in the GBP so they may not be a good guide to BoB pricing. 
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: Snowwolflair on January 18, 2017, 12:05:40 AM
After today everything has gone back down 3% again.  What a joke.
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: silly moo on January 18, 2017, 06:00:01 AM
I don't think I will be pre ordering one as this will be the first pacific they will have done without a cardan shaft, they also tend to get colours and lettering wrong on occasion, so it will be a case of waiting for feedback from this forum and from magazine reviews.

I have a good idea of what Farish quality is like and Dapol offerings have been improving lately but I'm still cautious.

 :NGaugersRule:
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: Big bad John on February 10, 2017, 03:35:11 AM
Meanwhile I wonder if they are getting the cab details right?
(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/48/5248-100217031016.jpeg)
(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/48/5248-100217030922.jpeg)
(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/48/5248-100217030835.jpeg)
(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/48/5248-100217030745.jpeg)
(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/48/5248-100217030547.jpeg)
(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/48/5248-100217030411.jpeg)
This loco is special to me as it's the only steamer I've been on the footplate of with a fire in its belly for over 40yrs.
Last year Hattons were saying due October November now they say no release date available!
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: Bealman on February 10, 2017, 04:03:22 AM
Great pics!  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: longbow on April 17, 2018, 11:31:19 PM
I see that the pound has now recovered all the losses it incurred against the US Dollar after the Brexit vote. Hopefully this will encourage new product activity.
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: Snowwolflair on April 17, 2018, 11:34:48 PM
I see that the pound has now recovered all the losses it incurred against the US Dollar after the Brexit vote. Hopefully this will encourage new product activity.

Not by a long way we are only 40% back on what it lost and only because the dollar is suffering

Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: longbow on April 17, 2018, 11:47:33 PM
Like you I can remember the pound being a lot higher, but pull up a currency chart and you will see that the pound is back to its level immediately prior to Brexit and only about 10% below its average level during the 2009-15 period.

Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: Snowwolflair on April 18, 2018, 12:01:09 AM
True, I always count it from the point someone decided it would be a good idea to have a vote.  :censored:

I had not realized we had made up the plunge the day after the vote.
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: Newportnobby on April 18, 2018, 10:07:54 AM
Facts are useful. Personal political comments about Mr Trumps handling of the economy are not.
Please desist or a SWAT team will be visiting you >:D
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: eddief83 on April 18, 2018, 01:27:19 PM
I can imagine Dapol will be focusing on catching up with a lot of projects announced, the class 50 is not in tooling yet I believe so there is other stuff still ahead in the queue.

I still live in hope at the next Dapol Club Open Day they will announce a resumption of the light pacific project. If the class 50 improvements on the spec if anything to go by we will probably get a super Light Pacific with working firebox flicker light and sound ready with awesome pulling power  :D
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: Newportnobby on April 18, 2018, 01:50:55 PM
Oh dear. Have you had the wrong sort of mushrooms for breakfast, Eddie? :uneasy: ;)
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: eddief83 on April 19, 2018, 01:39:40 PM
Oh dear. Have you had the wrong sort of mushrooms for breakfast, Eddie? :uneasy: ;)

Safe to say no mushrooms for breakfast, can't stand them  :bounce:
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: Newportnobby on April 19, 2018, 02:31:04 PM
Oh dear. Have you had the wrong sort of mushrooms for breakfast, Eddie? :uneasy: ;)

Safe to say no mushrooms for breakfast, can't stand them  :bounce:

Oh, the colours, man 8) 8) :laugh3:
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: eddief83 on April 23, 2018, 01:42:35 PM
Oh dear. Have you had the wrong sort of mushrooms for breakfast, Eddie? :uneasy: ;)

Safe to say no mushrooms for breakfast, can't stand them  :bounce:

Oh, the colours, man 8) 8) :laugh3:

No colours except green as they are for light pacifics :smiley-laughing:
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: Bob G on April 30, 2018, 08:44:23 AM
Are there any Southern gurus out there - did any rebuilt WC/BB run with a rebuilt tender and an early crest?
(or even any air-smoothed WC/BB with a replacement tender at an early age - some had replacement tenders quite early on)

Cheers
Bob
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: longbow on April 30, 2018, 08:55:16 AM
The first rebuilt WC did not appear until June 1957, about a year after the late crest was introduced. I think there's no chance that such a high profile loco or any of the rebuilds that followed it would have been outshopped in an obsolete livery.
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: ODRAILS on April 30, 2018, 10:15:20 AM
Are there any Southern gurus out there - did any rebuilt WC/BB run with a rebuilt tender and an early crest?
(or even any air-smoothed WC/BB with a replacement tender at an early age - some had replacement tenders quite early on)

Cheers
Bob
Yes - in 1952/3 three WC/BB locos had their tender sides cut down (and other mods) and these were given the small early BR crest. One of these was 34043 Combe Martin.
Ian
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: Dickydcc on May 07, 2018, 08:19:24 PM
It seems to me that there are a lot of people paying good money to pre order n gauge stuff with no guarantee they are actually going to get anything.
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: keithfre on May 07, 2018, 08:24:02 PM
The big retailers don't charge for preorders until they're shipped out.
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: silly moo on May 08, 2018, 06:34:35 AM
I've put down a £30 deposit on a pre-ordered 00 loco but that is in production and due at the end of the year. I'm quite happy to do that to secure the loco that I want.

I live in hope that we will get a BoB or West Country in N eventually.
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: Newportnobby on May 08, 2018, 10:07:37 AM

I live in hope that we will get a BoB or West Country in N eventually.

I just hope to live long enough to see one :uneasy:
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: Bob G on May 08, 2018, 02:59:28 PM
Since we are talking about pre-orders, Dave Jones just cancelled his class 74 project in OO.
so I will get back my investment money, but I'd rather have had the model.

Bob
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: ChrisWV10 on November 27, 2018, 07:27:57 PM
The Hattons newsletter has BoBs as a Dapol announcement due Q1 2020

https://www.hattons.co.uk/StockDetail.aspx?SID=424166&utm_source=NGaugeNewsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=20181127 (https://www.hattons.co.uk/StockDetail.aspx?SID=424166&utm_source=NGaugeNewsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=20181127)

170 quid....

C.  :uneasy:

Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: exmouthcraig on November 27, 2018, 09:04:22 PM
I'm willing to bet we hit another snag and they will be delayed AGAIN.

Only 10years late and 80% over original cost. Could almost be a public sector run project!

Only 18months to get my layout wired up then. Pressures on!
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: Karhedron on November 28, 2018, 09:16:08 AM
£170 does sound a bit steep. Hattons are selling the latest batch of valenced A4s for under £130. It also makes it a lot dearer than the Farish Merchant Navy (against which it will inevitably be compared)

The new drive train in the Light Pacifics will have to be something truly impressive to justify a £40 mark-up.  :-\
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: Bob G on November 28, 2018, 09:51:40 AM
As an alternative to tungsten chassis and traction tyres they will be using gold for added weight. Sorry Dapol. Its a joke.

But I've already moved away from modelling the 1980s as I never got the 59 I wanted. Now I am drifting away from exclusively Southern towards the GWR...

Bob
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: Newportnobby on November 28, 2018, 10:01:08 AM

But I've already moved away from modelling the 1980s as I never got the 59 I wanted. Now I am drifting away from exclusively Southern towards the GWR...


I believe Dapol are considering a GWR 'Star' but it would be around £180*
You could always try the LMS but, oh, the Garratt will be £199.
Not a lot left really, Bob. You could stay with the SR? ;)

*This is purely a joke and should be taken with an RAF Hercules full of salt
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: Fardap on November 28, 2018, 10:52:59 AM
Received the following by email this morning about Dapol 2019 Member loco (Hattons has it as Jan-Mar 2020)Ö


N Gauge 2019 Special Edition Locomotive

In keeping with our popular run of Members only Limited-Edition Locomotives we are pleased to announce
that next N Gauge special will be the Ė N Gauge West Country Class Exeter 34001 in BR Early Crest
Lined Green
 
We will be offering this in DC, DCC; DCC & Sound fitted options.
Please state which model required:
2S-034-006 2-6-0 W. Country Class Exeter 34001 in BR Early Crest £145.00
2S-034-006D 2-6-0 W. Country Class Exeter 34001 in BR Early Crest DCC £170.85
2S-034-006S 2-6-0 W. Country Class Exeter 34001 in BR Early Crest DCC & Sound £275.60

Standard UK P&P costs apply UK: £3.95 Europe: £5.95, ROW: £19.95
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: Chris Morris on November 28, 2018, 01:14:34 PM
I'm s little concerned as to whether this will be an accurate model. The last West country I saw was not a 2-6-0!
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: Paul-H on November 28, 2018, 01:34:13 PM
i am more concerned that its gone from a post on the Dapol forum saying they were disappointing with how the new drive system was performing to announcing expected delivery dates in only a couple of weeks.  Hope they ironed out the issues before signing off on production.
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: NGS-PO on November 28, 2018, 01:46:07 PM
I'm s little concerned as to whether this will be an accurate model. The last West country I saw was not a 2-6-0!

A second email arrived, immediately after the first, correcting the typo.
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: NGS-PO on November 28, 2018, 01:51:32 PM
i am more concerned that its gone from a post on the Dapol forum saying they were disappointing with how the new drive system was performing to announcing expected delivery dates in only a couple of weeks.  Hope they ironed out the issues before signing off on production.

Do you have a link? I can't see it on the BOB/WC thread....?
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: Fardap on November 28, 2018, 01:53:00 PM
Yes they did correct the typo and apologise...

2S-034-006 4-6-2 W. Country Class Exeter 34001 in BR Early Crest £145.00
2S-034-006D 4-6-2 W. Country Class Exeter 34001 in BR Early Crest DCC £170.85
2S-034-006S 4-6-2 W. Country Class Exeter 34001 in BR Early Crest DCC & Sound £275.60

I get the impression they have abandoned the new drive or have at least gone in a new direction, TBH I lost track of the decisions so not sure now if New 5 Pole is anything new or if they are still pursuing a new development...
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: Newportnobby on November 28, 2018, 02:55:39 PM
£170 does sound a bit steep. Hattons are selling the latest batch of valenced A4s for under £130. It also makes it a lot dearer than the Farish Merchant Navy (against which it will inevitably be compared)


The prices quoted from Dapol appear to be much closer to the mark and not so off putting......

Yes they did correct the typo and apologise...

2S-034-006 4-6-2 W. Country Class Exeter 34001 in BR Early Crest £145.00
2S-034-006D 4-6-2 W. Country Class Exeter 34001 in BR Early Crest DCC £170.85
2S-034-006S 4-6-2 W. Country Class Exeter 34001 in BR Early Crest DCC & Sound £275.60

I get the impression they have abandoned the new drive or have at least gone in a new direction, TBH I lost track of the decisions so not sure now if New 5 Pole is anything new or if they are still pursuing a new development...


I just hope and pray they don't revert to the dratted cardan shaft
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: Bob G on November 28, 2018, 05:08:42 PM
Dont forget the Dapol price is the club price and that is much lower than the RRP for the Dapol Club class 50 50007 for example.
Bob
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: nookfield on November 28, 2018, 06:27:56 PM
i am more concerned that its gone from a post on the Dapol forum saying they were disappointing with how the new drive system was performing to announcing expected delivery dates in only a couple of weeks.  Hope they ironed out the issues before signing off on production.

Do you have a link? I can't see it on the BOB/WC thread....?

You need to check back to 15th June 2016 which is slightly more than a couple of weeks ago.
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: nookfield on November 28, 2018, 06:30:18 PM
£170 does sound a bit steep. Hattons are selling the latest batch of valenced A4s for under £130. It also makes it a lot dearer than the Farish Merchant Navy (against which it will inevitably be compared)


The prices quoted from Dapol appear to be much closer to the mark and not so off putting......

I just hope and pray they don't revert to the dratted cardan shaft
[/quote]

The RRP is £199.99 so Hattons listed price is correct given the standard 15% discount on new models. The price was stated by Joel at the Dapol open day
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: ChrisWV10 on November 28, 2018, 06:36:28 PM
<snip>

I just hope and pray they don't revert to the dratted cardan shaft

Agreed! Deal breaker for me. I refuse to buy Dapol tender locos because of this.
Their panniers are nice thoí

C.  :)
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: NGS-PO on November 28, 2018, 06:37:36 PM
i am more concerned that its gone from a post on the Dapol forum saying they were disappointing with how the new drive system was performing to announcing expected delivery dates in only a couple of weeks.  Hope they ironed out the issues before signing off on production.

Do you have a link? I can't see it on the BOB/WC thread....?

You need to check back to 15th June 2016 which is slightly more than a couple of weeks ago.

that's what I thought. I remember it being the one of the issues that led to the abeyance a couple of years ago, but had seen nothing about the motor since. Hence my looking for substantiation........
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: longbow on November 29, 2018, 08:29:17 PM
I'm pretty sure Dapol have already indicated there will not be a cardan shaft. Tender drive would not leave room for DCC sound gear.
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: Bulliedman on December 04, 2018, 10:58:37 AM
https://www.dapol.co.uk/image/data/News%20Items%20and%20press%20release/BOB_WC%20Page%202b.jpg (https://www.dapol.co.uk/image/data/News%20Items%20and%20press%20release/BOB_WC%20Page%202b.jpg)

That confirms it all, but at £200 I cant see me buying one no matter how good it is !
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: Tank on December 04, 2018, 11:00:27 AM
You beat me to it!  :)

Yes, the price seems to shocking some on the Facebook page as well.
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: Newportnobby on December 04, 2018, 11:27:25 AM
It's been so long since the original announcement I've gained a whole 62 pence interest on the money I set by for one which goes ...........................nowhere near what I need now. Next thing, Dapol will be saying the N gauge market isn't there when it doesn't sell, and if it does prices will be set for the future at that level. We're doomed, Mr. Mainwaring, we're doomed :( :(
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: Bob Tidbury on December 04, 2018, 11:46:29 AM
For once my post is very short ,WOW no way can I afford that.
Bob Tidbury
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: port perran on December 04, 2018, 12:39:58 PM
It's been so long since the original announcement I've gained a whole 62 pence interest on the money I set by for one which goes ...........................nowhere near what I need now. Next thing, Dapol will be saying the N gauge market isn't there when it doesn't sell, and if it does prices will be set for the future at that level. We're doomed, Mr. Mainwaring, we're doomed :( :(
Agreed. I certainly wonít be paying that amount of money for a locomotive Iím afraid.
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: silly moo on December 04, 2018, 01:07:50 PM
We are retired now and on a fixed income, I have to think very very carefully about each loco purchase. Iím getting to the stage where I will have to sell stock to buy new locos. Iím hoping that the £199 is a recommenced retail price and that the bigger retailers will be able to discount it a bit.
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: eddief83 on December 04, 2018, 01:30:22 PM
There is 2 Farish Spitfires on eBay right now - one for £58 and one for £84 both buy it now. For those who object to the pricing of this model, personally I will be happy to pay the price as its going to be a cracking model.

Chinese wages have gone up since this model was announced and shelved then brought back - so it was never going to match the original price.
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: Stevie DC on December 04, 2018, 02:01:41 PM
Great to see this locomotive reappear after its postponement.

Regarding the price, I happen to have a 1976 copy of Railway Modeller in my hands at the moment which I purchased for some drawings within the pages. Interestingly, there is an advert for a Minitrix Britannia which lists the price as £17.47 new. According to an inflation calculator this would be £119.50 in today's money. Considering this was for a locomotive that was developed to make use of an existing continental chassis (used for several different models to save on development/tooling costs), was compromised dimensionally as a result, was much more basic in terms of mouldings, number of parts and detailing than today's models and was probably manufactured in larger numbers (economies of scale?) would this be considered to be a fair price for what you would be getting today?

Wages in China have been increasing at a remarkable rate with the average wage in 2018 being c. £8,499 per year compared to £3,342 in 2008; up by over 254% but still cheaper than the average UK wage of £27,600. Also the fall in the pound needs to be taken into account. The dollar is currently worth c. £1.28 which is significantly down (c. 13%) from the beginning of 2016

How many locomotives does Dapol (or Farish) typically sell in a batch and how big is the N Gauge market? If you assume that only one in five modellers join the NGS, it'll only be a market of roughly 25k people. How many of those potential customers will the locomotive appeal to?

Farish's prices have also been rising with the RRP for the C Class being between £134.95 and £149.95 depending on the livery - that's for an 0-6-0!

Honestly, I don't think that £200 for a newly tooled, low volume 4-6-2 in today's market is unreasonable (look at the prices for a new Fleischmann model) and I thank the British N Gauge manufacturers for managing to keep prices down for as long as they have. If this is too expensive, then maybe (as Newportnobby alludes to) there isn't a viable N Gauge market anymore.  :(

Sorry for the long post, just some of my own thoughts on the matter.
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: Karhedron on December 04, 2018, 02:47:08 PM
My original plan was for a light Pacific hauling a 3-coach Bulleid set as an inter-regional working on a largely GWR layout. I rather prematurely bought the BTK-CK-BTK set and ended up buying a bargain-priced new Merchant Navy when a Clan Line appeared below the £100 mark as a temporary stand-in.

Ironically it will be cheaper to buy a couple of Bulleid SKs and make a 5-car set to give the MN something more realistic to haul than sell the MN to buy a light Pacific.  :confused1:
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: joe cassidy on December 04, 2018, 03:17:01 PM
Farish Merchant Navy: 1

Dapol West Country/Battle of Britain: 0

Best regards,


Joe
(rule 1 purchaser)
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: Bob G on December 04, 2018, 03:37:30 PM
My original plan was for a light Pacific hauling a 3-coach Bulleid set as an inter-regional working on a largely GWR layout. I rather prematurely bought the BTK-CK-BTK set and ended up buying a bargain-priced new Merchant Navy when a Clan Line appeared below the £100 mark as a temporary stand-in.

Ironically it will be cheaper to buy a couple of Bulleid SKs and make a 5-car set to give the MN something more realistic to haul than sell the MN to buy a light Pacific.  :confused1:

We will turn you into a Southern man yet :)
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: Newportnobby on December 04, 2018, 04:47:59 PM
My original plan was for a light Pacific hauling a 3-coach Bulleid set as an inter-regional working on a largely GWR layout. I rather prematurely bought the BTK-CK-BTK set and ended up buying a bargain-priced new Merchant Navy when a Clan Line appeared below the £100 mark as a temporary stand-in.

Ironically it will be cheaper to buy a couple of Bulleid SKs and make a 5-car set to give the MN something more realistic to haul than sell the MN to buy a light Pacific.  :confused1:

We will turn you into a Southern man yet :)

Not if Lynyrd Skynyrd have anything to do with it :no: :D
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: Train Waiting on December 04, 2018, 07:12:37 PM
Sorry for the long post, just some of my own thoughts on the matter.

Steve, your thoughts are what mine would (hopefully!) be if I allowed my little grey cells sufficient time to do their work.  As it is, all I need to do is say, "thank you" and go to do yet more flocking, which requires almost no thought at all and is ideal for me.

Thank you.

John
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: thebrighton on December 04, 2018, 09:59:51 PM

Honestly, I don't think that £200 for a newly tooled, low volume 4-6-2 in today's market is unreasonable (look at the prices for a new Fleischmann model) and I thank the British N Gauge manufacturers for managing to keep prices down for as long as they have. If this is too expensive, then maybe (as Newportnobby alludes to) there isn't a viable N Gauge market anymore.  :(


I understand your thought process but unfortunately £200 for a non DCC, non sound loco is a sum I cannot justify spending on a single item which, I'm afraid, being a Dapol steamer, doesn't guarantee a decent runner no matter how good it looks.
I need to stick to scratch building as I simply cannot afford RTR anymore :(

Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: silly moo on December 04, 2018, 10:55:55 PM
I agree with the reasoning behind rising labour costs and a smallish market pushing up the prices of models and Iím hoping that this model will be a big leap forward in terms of quality for Dapol.

Hopefully we will see mock ups and samples along the way which will give us an idea of itís potential and whether it matches up to the specifications.

I donít think Iíll be pre ordering at this early stage, Iíll need lots of time to save up (or plan a bank robbery)  :D
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: longbow on December 04, 2018, 11:05:28 PM
No doubt the renewed weakness of sterling - down 10% against the USD since April - has been a big factor in the RRP decision.
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: honk843 on December 04, 2018, 11:27:45 PM
As I understand it all the re-announced models are for the Bulleid original air-smoothed versions. Does anyone know if there is any prospect of a rebuilt one eventually? I will have a word with my friendly local retailer who I know was a bit miffed about returning deposits on the model when it was suspended before but I will hold back if there is a rebuilt coming along behind.
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: Snowwolflair on December 04, 2018, 11:40:49 PM
No plans, from conversations I had recently.
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: Ben A on December 05, 2018, 12:39:05 AM

Hi all,

I tend to model the present day, but I would be interested in this model if there are any mainline running I could use on a charter.  Maybe renumber one as Tangmere?

In terms of price, I agree that the RRP is higher than we have been used to but I am hoping that it will be justified, in part, by more extensive R&D and higher quality components/assembly. I notice on the specification that the body will be diecast - this should add a fair old chunk of weight and enhance traction, though of course smoothness is also important. 

Plus factory fitted sound is attractive to me, as I am too lazy to fit it myself.

cheers

Ben A.
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: Paul-H on December 05, 2018, 06:30:38 AM
It will be compared but at £199 For a Dapol you could get the Hattons Garret, which on it's own sounded quite expensive but is now looking to be quite good value, given how much extra detail you will get for your money

Given my poor history with Dapol models, I suspect I will pass on this supposed super smooth new chassis, until it has been prooved to be super smooth and long lasting..

Paul
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: leachsprite4 on December 05, 2018, 07:35:24 AM
I tend to agree £200 is a lot I had a budget for three originally but this has all been spent on a farish products when this while this project was suspended.

I'd like 3 of the air smoothed version and one rebuilt, is very unlikely to happen now and I won't commit to any until I have seen the final version and have read reviews.


Does anyone know if there is any prospect of a rebuilt one eventually?

The advert on the dapol website says the rebuilt ones will follow in a later run but no timescale is provided for that.

Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: Bulliedman on December 05, 2018, 08:50:54 AM
I think the real problem here with the price is that although people say that they will still buy the new Dapol W/C there is s significant number who will not, which must affect the overall profitability of the production of this and any future locos. In essence the high prices may result in a  downturn in the hobby.
The thing that puzzles me is that we expect such high fidelity and detail from Farish and Dapol and are happy to allow the costs to rise and then in contrast are happy to accept detail to the old Poole standards from other manufacturers !!!
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: RailGooner on December 05, 2018, 09:35:00 AM
Sorry that this post is somewhat off topic, but follows the current thread of the topic.

I can't afford £200 as the norm for a loco. It's not a question of I won't pay - I simply can't pay what I haven't got.

There are two three pending loco releases that will likely turn out to be my last. But when I (re)started in this hobby I used the rational that while I was earning (a good salary) I'd buy stock, and when I retired I'd build a layout. I always imagined there'd be a period before I retired when cost of stock would pass my earnings. I think I'm there already.

In fact this year, I've sold considerably more stock than I've bought. I'll be happy if I can just avoid that selling trend continuing.


@leighcollett1980
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: Newportnobby on December 05, 2018, 09:40:57 AM
The thing that puzzles me is that we expect such high fidelity and detail from Farish and Dapol and are happy to allow the costs to rise and then in contrast are happy to accept detail to the old Poole standards from other manufacturers !!!

Maybe that's because the chances of getting a lemon from Farish and Dapol are higher than from, say, Union Mills. Rapido and Hornby have only produced one powered model for the UK market so far, and there has been no powered N from DJ Models yet. Sonic Models are another unknown quantity. Just my thoughts.
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: Bulliedman on December 05, 2018, 10:00:36 AM
"Maybe that's because the chances of getting a lemon from Farish and Dapol are higher than from, say, Union Mills. "

So are you suggesting that we would sacrifice detail for reliability and a lower price ?
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: RailGooner on December 05, 2018, 11:10:16 AM
Yes. Not for every model, but for some, yes. Example: I'd happily buy a UM 'City of Truro' and detail it myself.
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: Dizz on December 05, 2018, 11:52:30 AM
Yes. Not for every model, but for some, yes. Example: I'd happily buy a UM 'City of Truro' and detail it myself.
...............and I wouldn't: so there is the conundrum for manufacturers in a niche market.

I would like to buy a new car every couple years, but can't afford it/have other priorities so don't.  No-one is racketeering here.
Just my 2p worth.

Pete
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: eddief83 on December 05, 2018, 01:29:48 PM
I think the real problem here with the price is that although people say that they will still buy the new Dapol W/C there is s significant number who will not, which must affect the overall profitability of the production of this and any future locos. In essence the high prices may result in a  downturn in the hobby.

Problem there is that will create a vicious circle, less sales will generate less profit so any (if they do) a 2nd run will be smaller so costs of this run will be spread over fewer models thus pushing the price up further. Flip side is they don't make a profit and we all know what happens to businesses who lose money
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: Newportnobby on December 05, 2018, 03:36:20 PM
"Maybe that's because the chances of getting a lemon from Farish and Dapol are higher than from, say, Union Mills. "

So are you suggesting that we would sacrifice detail for reliability and a lower price ?

Sorry if I misunderstood your post but I thought you were saying we happily pay less for less detail.
In the case of UM then my reply stands, especially as Colin outputs loco types the 'majors' don't appear to want to.

I think the real problem here with the price is that although people say that they will still buy the new Dapol W/C there is s significant number who will not, which must affect the overall profitability of the production of this and any future locos. In essence the high prices may result in a  downturn in the hobby.

Problem there is that will create a vicious circle, less sales will generate less profit so any (if they do) a 2nd run will be smaller so costs of this run will be spread over fewer models thus pushing the price up further. Flip side is they don't make a profit and we all know what happens to businesses who lose money

Again, I could be wrong but usually the tooling cost is amortised in full (or major part) over the first run so subsequent runs should not incur the same cost levels.
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: acook on December 05, 2018, 03:53:46 PM
Hands up anyone who has had a lemon from Union Mills?

Dapol 3/3 lemons

Brand new Farish- only one and that has a split gear now.

2nd hand poole farish being pushed around by UM tenders, thats the way to go for me.

You get outside cylinders and motion that way.

Alan
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: silly moo on December 05, 2018, 04:32:49 PM
Iím in the same position as Railgooner, Iíve got to the stage where I wonít be able to buy much more new stock however I will be very interested to see how the new model turns out and might flog some old stock to buy a rebuilt version as itís one of my favourites.

Iím hoping that this new model will be the best one ever from Dapol and will transform their reputation for variable quality.
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: Train Waiting on December 05, 2018, 04:41:16 PM
Hands up anyone who has had a lemon from Union Mills?

Dapol 3/3 lemons

Brand new Farish- only one and that has a split gear now.

2nd hand poole farish being pushed around by UM tenders, thats the way to go for me.

You get outside cylinders and motion that way.

Alan

Not me, Alan.

I have a few Union Mills locomotives.  The only unpleasant surprise was that the motor on my 'Super Claud' packed in after several months.  I sent the locomotive back to Colin Heard and it was returned within a week (easily - amazing service) running beautifully.  And it still is.  As are the rest of them.  My personal preference is for the post-2015 motor as these run slower and quieter in my view.

I have bought four Farish locomotives and one Dapol in the past year-and-a-bit.  All diesel, apart from one Farish steam engine.  All had to be returned apart from the Farish 'Deltic'.  I wonder if these were made down to a price and am encouraged by Dapol's intended specification and price.

Although Union Mills locomotives appear cheap, there is no retailer's profit (say 33%) and VAT on top.  Include these and a Union Mills locomotive would be noticeably more expensive.  Of course, price is what you pay and value is what you get.  I intend giving Dapol an opportunity to demonstrate good value with the unrebuilt 'WC'/'BB'.

John
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: roundhouse on December 05, 2018, 05:09:50 PM
I really hope it is a good runner and a good looking model as will require a few for a future layout but at that price I wonít be having as many as I do in OO scale.
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: Paul-H on December 05, 2018, 05:43:31 PM
One thing that is often forgotten about the average wage today compared to what it was in the 1970,s as in a post above, today's average wage is seriously inaccurate because of the much higher number of very very high salary multi millionaire business executives, it is their high salaries that are making the "Average Wage" look good when in real life most people in normal jobs earn closer to the minimum wage which is just over £15k with most having little chance of ever being average. 8)

Obviously if we average people cant afford to buy trains we should find less expensive things to spend our heard earned on, like food and rent, and leave all the toys to the wealthy, who don't have to ask how much is that and just ask can I buy them all so I can put them in a cupboard and drool over my exclusive collection :wave:

To be honest its never been and never will be a poor man (Other sexual denominations are available) hobby.

Hat Coat Door
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: Karhedron on December 06, 2018, 12:35:18 PM
Again, I could be wrong but usually the tooling cost is amortised in full (or major part) over the first run so subsequent runs should not incur the same cost levels.

That used to be the case for Dapol but I do not know if it still is It was often the case that 2nd and subsequent runs were cheaper than the first although that is now no longer the case. Farish amortise the cost of their toolings over several runs but have not said how many.
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: Chris Morris on December 06, 2018, 02:07:51 PM
I don't know where this myth of the tooling costs being amortised and therefore the price can go down has come from. Whilst it is true that in financial accounting terms you amortise the cost of the tooling over the production run but this is merely so you can define financial profit and loss each year. Whether tool costs have been fully amortised or not is irrelevant to the price. What matters to a business, whether it is profitable or not, is the cash position. In the real world the cash generated by sales of current stock is needed to provide the investment for future models. Reduce the cash being generated and you reduce your future model programme which ultimately will see your business sink. Hornby's problems are all around how to raise enough cash to invest in new models and nothing to do with whether previous models have paid for themselves or not.
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: Newportnobby on December 06, 2018, 04:30:52 PM
I don't believe it has been said 2nd or more runs are lower in price, only that they may be cheaper to produce. Personally, I don't believe anything becomes cheaper to the purchaser until the manufacturer wants it to.
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: Paul-H on December 06, 2018, 05:04:09 PM
Well said and so true
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: Karhedron on December 06, 2018, 07:59:35 PM
I don't believe it has been said 2nd or more runs are lower in price, only that they may be cheaper to produce. Personally, I don't believe anything becomes cheaper to the purchaser until the manufacturer wants it to.

It used to be the case that second and subsequent runs from Dapol were cheaper than originals. The second batch of 9Fs were £20 or £30 cheaper than the first ones. At the time, Dave Jones explained that it was because it was Dapol policy to amortise the tooling on the first run so subsequent runs were cheaper.

This is not a myth, you can find posts on here to that effect if you go back 6+ years. Of course a lot has changed since then and Dapol certainly don't do second runs cheaper now.
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: Newportnobby on December 07, 2018, 01:13:53 PM
Kernow newsletter is listing them at £169.99 for DC (and they're usually slightly more expensive than Rails or Hattons) along with anticipated availability Qtr 1 2020.
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: Karhedron on December 07, 2018, 02:15:30 PM
Kernow newsletter is listing them at £169.99 for DC (and they're usually slightly more expensive than Rails or Hattons) along with anticipated availability Qtr 1 2020.

That is the traditional 15% off the RRP so looks accurate.
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: Newportnobby on August 03, 2019, 05:17:58 PM
Received a mail from Rails yesterday and as my pre order was placed so long ago it was a timely nudge, although the comment about the colour is misleading as the newer reference on their website is for the BR Green l/crest which is what I want...........

We are just writing to you with regards to an old preorder for the Dapol Battle of Britain Class 'Spitfire' #34066 BR Green Late Crest (Un-Rebuilt). This is not being produced under the same code as before, it was ND208D and is now 2S-034-002. The colour has also changed on this to Malachite Green. Due to the length of time in production the price is now £169.95. We have cancelled your preorder but if you wish to order the altered version please let us know.
We apologise for any inconvenience caused.
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: exmouthcraig on August 03, 2019, 05:48:49 PM
Are they ACTUALLY still going to produce this Mick??? I'd given up on it and planned to renumber Farish MN as WC/BoB yes technically too big and many differences between the 2 but my branch lines are built on the same 4x1 baseboard so no structural damage can be done by running the heavier version as a Light Pacific.

At least that way I knew I'd get Light Pacifics in my lifetime
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: longbow on August 03, 2019, 08:15:27 PM
So long as Dapol remains in N Gauge thereís every reason to think this will eventually see the light of day. Second time lucky.
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: Newportnobby on August 03, 2019, 09:38:22 PM
Latest estimate is Jan 2020 but I've just watched the TV prog about Crossrail and am now convinced Dapol are more likely to hit target :uneasy:
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: Les1952 on September 21, 2019, 11:05:26 PM
From today's Open day-

The Bullied Pacific has now been put back onto the active list following the release of the Class 50.  Nothing on dates so I expect the next update and possibly a running EP might be this time next year.....

Note however that active list now includes an upgraded M7 with a completely new DCC ready chassis.

Les
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: Newportnobby on September 22, 2019, 03:25:51 AM
I reckon by the time we get our mitts on one even those in preservation will have been scrapped ::) :unimpressed:
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: exmouthcraig on September 22, 2019, 08:14:02 AM
What stops someone else producing one of these?? Is the model railway world the same as the original railway world? I'll build a station here to stop you, you wont get a linked up railway line for 5 years but it stops my enemy getting here first. So dapol just take the attitude "I'll claim to be making one of these to stop anyone else being able too".

Presumably they are pretty skint which is why O gauge got pushed and everything else got dumped. Even if we do see another EP in 12months were not going to be holding it in our hands until 2022 unless they find more flaws with their plans and then just scrap the idea AGAIN.

If you cant make it, let's face it they've had enough time just give up and let someone else step in.

I hear SONIC are very good at steam locomotives!!!!!
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: leachsprite4 on September 22, 2019, 09:01:14 AM
The answer is the n gauge market is to small and that dapol give or take the odd break have been developing this since at least 2012, but it was before the school class was announced.

Therefore there has been plenty of opportunity but no takers. Dapol say this will be the big step forward for them similar to the 68 diesel.

This said there appears to have been no progress since 2018, and now they are working on a new m7 chassis, it hardly feels this is priority No1 landmark loco.

Graham
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: exmouthcraig on September 22, 2019, 09:13:56 AM
But they can't keep hold of doing nothing forever. We have to be told on virtually EVERY topic "oh the N gauge market is shrinking" and it's the same old tales of woe.

The simple fact is Dapol dont have the money to solve the issues they "discovered". Theres plenty said about their quality control, maybe I've been lucky and not struggled with any yet. But they've spent 5 years selling undecorated examples of wagons to presumably keep a few quid rolling in, they announce unnumbered stock now to "allow a full rake to be run" but presumably to save themselves a tenner on costs, although I bet that saving wont show on retail price. Now the class 50 has been released presumably the plan now is to get some decent money in the pot to develop a model that's now 7years out of date. But because the profit wont be as great as predicted they plan to "redevelop a chassis" which needs to be done BUT they already have the bodies available to screw on and flog for £110 a pop.
So we wont see ANYTHING to do with the new WC/BoB simply because they wont make the money off all of their plans to keep recycling the same models.
Dapols future in N might look bleak but they need to stop spinning the same old tale of a shrinking market. We've heard it a million times before when someone fails to deliver. Have the manufacturers ever thought that the N gauge market might be shrinking because they never give us what they tell us so we give up???
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: Newportnobby on September 22, 2019, 09:43:20 AM
Sadly, as Graham said, the N gauge market is a small market and it's unusual for two or more manufacturers to go 'head to head' on models (two spring to mind - the class 59 and the class 92).
The choices of class 66 are there in the marketplace. Personally I wish it had been Farish who had won out on the 9F as I think we'd have had a much better model.
The practice of announcing something and doing nowt is oft reflected in real life where supermarkets buy up a tract of land on the pretext they'll put a supermarket on it and it stands empty for years just so no one else can gain that foothold.
My only ray of optimism is that, if the UK N gauge market is that small, how come we have new manufacturers such as RevolutioN, Sonic, Accurascale, Hattons etc entering with models and Kato dipping their toe in the UK range?
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: exmouthcraig on September 22, 2019, 09:55:25 AM
Exactly Mick, if the market was so small, which let's face it were only told by someone who hasn't done what they told us was going to get done!!

Why have Hattons sacrificed so much to become a manufacturer??

Did we get to talk to Ben and Mike at the weekend telling us they were bringing no items to the the N gauge world because the market is so small?? They announced 5 new items that weekend!!!

Did Sam at Sonic tell us that their 56xx tie up with revolutioN wasnt any good and they were pulling out of the N gauge market?? NO!! Becuase it's clearly a fantastic model between 2 fantastic manufacturers.

No!!! And why is that???

Because it's a good excuse to blame when they cant be bothered to do anything or cant get bankrolled to do it. But instead of admitting that they live in denial and blame the market.

With all the developments with manufacturers coming to the market I'd like to see a figure from 2000 of people modeling N gauge in the UK and what that figure stands at today.

If it is within 5% of the same figure the shrinking market is just  :censored: that they can hide behind.
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: Bob G on September 22, 2019, 11:18:24 AM
...they already have the bodies available to screw on and flog for £110...

Do we know that the bodies are in existence? I've not heard that one.

Bob
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: exmouthcraig on September 22, 2019, 11:28:26 AM
From previous run. It's only the chassis that's being redeveloped. The bodies wont change from the run 10years ago. So even if none are produced all the tooling still exists so costs for re-releasing them as DCC ready are very small.

Typically my 3 are sat on the bench waiting for me to be brave enough to get the soldering iron too them!!!
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: leachsprite4 on September 22, 2019, 11:42:52 AM
Sorry Craig but I believe you are wrong about the bodies the relaunch said it will be a diecast body for the model and at no point was an EP seen for the original version.

There was once reference to testing motors bit no mention of the body at all.
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: exmouthcraig on September 22, 2019, 12:06:01 PM
Well that makes it worse. Theres time and money to develop a complete new locomotive but no time or money to resolve the issues with their supposed flag ship model.

The end of the day until anything hits the shelves it's a waste of time believing anything.

2012? Release of new state of the art model Bulleid pacific
2013? Pre order all of the models for £99
2016? Yeah we hit problems we will resolve it for 2018
2018: knock it on the head
2019: Cant get this right so will delay for another year

The argument for not launching any diesels is because they HAVE TO BE AS GOOD AS THE 68, the reason behind the delays in the WC/BOB, IT HAS TO BE AS GOOD AS THE 68 HAS BEEN FOR DIESELS, still not there with it so we will develop a complete brand new chassis and body for a DCC M7.

WHy not work on the issues with your 7 year old planned model. The problems will only resolve themselves when you cancel the project altogether
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: Snowwolflair on September 22, 2019, 12:14:58 PM
We could be over thinking this.

Could it simply be that they just don't want to be in the market with a Spam Can while the Farish Merchant Navy is a current model.
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: Ben A on September 22, 2019, 12:36:13 PM

Hello all,

I sympathise with the frustration of those waiting for a BoB locomotive.  I went for a trip on the Nene Valley Railway a year or so ago, and haulage was 92 Squadron, which I remember thinking a very fine looking locomotive.

But it's important to bear in mind that the numbers that work for Revolution are very different to those that work for mainstream manufacturers.

Because we "pre-test" models through crowdfunding, we can de-risk the financial commitment and because we are not needing to factor in large retailer (or Revolution) margins we can make significantly smaller production runs work.

So, for example, for the Pendolino the final production run was 1200.  We needed 1000, so that was a triumph, but for a major manufacturer needing sales of 3000 or so this would've been a disaster.

The caveat is, of course, that we can only produce models when our fellow modellers are prepared to step forward and pay upfront.

Sonic is a little different as he is a new manufacturer seeking to break into the British market, and his presence is still evolving.

Cheers

Ben A,
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: honk843 on September 22, 2019, 01:25:28 PM
No doubt like many others, I have a retailing friend who I spoke to about the cancellation of Dapol N gauge models a few years back. He said that he could not argue with Dapol's decision as he had only a few orders for BofB ( and none for the other models) which would have to refund but he could not get enough of the O gauge models, which were, at that time, flying off the shelf.

His account may be biased in favour of larger gauge stuff and I think we must appreciate being spoilt over the period from 2004 for ten years or so when Graham Farish re-released virtually the whole of the existing GF range with improved chassises and Graham F and Dapol trying to outdo one another (two completely new B1 models in a couple of weeks was never going to work to the manufacturers financial advantage).

However I was more surprised by Bachman's attitude at TINGS 2018 when we were given this bit about the size of the N gauge market. If 20% of their sales are GF and 50% Branch-lines I think I would personally look to try to expand the area with the least competition, or at least that we should see 40% of the OO models developed to N. However I get the feeling it may simply be a reflection of the amount of stock they have in their warehouse awaiting wholesale purchase. My major beef however is the delay between the release of the OO and N gauge models. It is not that they are testing the waters with the OO model because they announce the N gauge one before the OO one is available.
Dapol certainly raised the bar when they entered the N gauge market, lets hope that we can look towards the same when Sonic, Revolution etc. come on stream.
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: Les1952 on September 23, 2019, 12:04:27 AM
Like all companies Dapol's primary concern is staying in business.  They also have been putting a lot of money into expanding and upgrading their factory to do a lot more in house.  Their new moulding machine came with a seven-figure price tag.  They are investing in a CAD apprentice with the aim of getting CAD done at Chirk rather than subcontracting it to China.   Will they do their own tooling in the UK?  A tooling machine is well North of £10 million to buy and would need to be running 24/7 to justify its outlay.  Presently one of the O-gauge models is "will start production as soon as the tools are received from China" 

The N-gauge production is described as being "like a pipe".  Once one is done and emerges from the pipe the next one goes into the pipe.  The Class 50 is on sale so the BoB has gone into the production pipe.   Also starting the journey is a retool of the M7 with a brand new chassis.  Other early locos will follow but ONE AT A TIME.

We have seen what happens when a manufacturer starts more projects than it can raise money for.   

Les
Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: Bingley Hall on September 23, 2019, 04:28:38 AM
Well that makes it worse. Theres time and money to develop a complete new locomotive but no time or money to resolve the issues with their supposed flag ship model.

The end of the day until anything hits the shelves it's a waste of time believing anything.

2012? Release of new state of the art model Bulleid pacific
2013? Pre order all of the models for £99
2016? Yeah we hit problems we will resolve it for 2018
2018: knock it on the head
2019: Cant get this right so will delay for another year

The argument for not launching any diesels is because they HAVE TO BE AS GOOD AS THE 68, the reason behind the delays in the WC/BOB, IT HAS TO BE AS GOOD AS THE 68 HAS BEEN FOR DIESELS, still not there with it so we will develop a complete brand new chassis and body for a DCC M7.

WHy not work on the issues with your 7 year old planned model. The problems will only resolve themselves when you cancel the project altogether

I think everyone has got the message by now  >:(

Title: Re: Battle of Britain/West Country pacifics
Post by: Chris Morris on September 23, 2019, 08:52:12 AM
I reckon Dapol are doing a good job. As a business they quite rightly switched resources to where the best return on investment was available. In Dapol's case this was a concentration of development resources on O gauge. you can't knock them for wanting to continue to be a going concern. It is quite probable that the O gauge bubble is starting to slow down (judging bu some of the discounts being offered) and so Dapol have moved their concentration to developing new models in all scales. The one loco at a time in the pipeline approach seems quite reasonable for N gauge in view of the volumes. You have to keep all costs in trim if you are going to keep your head above water and not run out of cash.

There has been a steady stream of new N gauge locos from Dapol over the last few years and I hope this will continue. I think they are keeping quieter about how things are progressing current projects and their future plans in order to prevent further criticism about delays. They do have to be careful that there are "new kids on the block"
probably have a much lighter cost base; this could make getting that return on invest on future models more difficult. The one project at a time in the pipeline approach could well be a means of keeping the development costs down in order to remain competitive with the new guys. All the indications are that Dapol is a well run, stable company who are in it for the long term.

I have been told by those who know these things that Bachmann are very keen to improve N gauge sales although I'm not sure how successful they have been. They had a good presence at TINGS this year. The big question is - just what can we all do to get more folks into N gauge? Perhaps there needs to be some thought put into defining the advantages of N and then pushing those advantages hard at exhibitions. Maybe a leaflet that could be given out by all N gauge layouts? At the risk of being controversial I wonder if the NGS concentrates too much on providing services to members and not enough on evangelising the virtues of N to those who have not yet realised how great it is? Maybe there needs to be a different umbrella group for trying to expand N gauge. Just throwing out thoughts, these are not suggestions and certainly not criticising those who give up so much of their free time for the NGS and the good of our hobby.