N gauge starts at 4.00 in
The class 87s look really good!
Cheers Colin
Nothing of interest for me there.
GE
Danm... I had #3 in the sweepstake...
:(
The 87s do look good. I seem to be steadily replicating LSLs full roster, so a Swallow one seems essential!
Didn't watch the whole thing, but the (n gauge) 66s remain conspicuous by their absence?
So the BoBs are finally going to happen?! Might just have to place an order...
Thanks for sharing :thumbsup:
No sign of the new tooling 56 as yet?
I'm just glad the BoB is seeing the light of day after soooooo long! Definitely need one at least for BL.
Dave
Quote from: Bingley Hall on August 09, 2025, 11:03:53 AMNo sign of the new tooling 56 as yet?
I learnt long ago to take any proffered availability date with a gritter lorry full of salt
Lovely that he called the Class 87 electric the 87xx :smiley-laughing:
Nice to see livery samples on the Ivatts, but other than that, the Manor, Mogul, BB/WC and Ivatts don't seem any further on from last TINGS. That's a shame.
Pocket money and pension saved for OO sound fitted stuff... from the other firm!
Bob
It does seem that getting made in China is increasingly difficult. Bachmann/Farish are probably better off than the others because they are part of Kadar and Kadar are the manufacturers. Revolution Trains seem to be struggling to get things made just as much as Dapol, likewise Sonic. I don't blame Dapol for things taking a long time; it's the way things are in China. The BoB is a bit different pre orders were low after it was announced so the project was given a lower priority than other projects which looked more likely to provide a better return on investment. They are after all a business. As they are a business you can be sure Dapol are keener than us to get new models over here and on sale. Getting as far as samples costs Dapol hard earned cash but they don't get any cash back until it is on sale in the UK. In any business getting cash in from sales is key to the business keeping its head above water.
Quote from: Chris Morris on August 09, 2025, 01:16:04 PMIt does seem that getting made in China is increasingly difficult. Bachmann/Farish are probably better off than the others because they are part of Kadar and Kadar are the manufacturers. Revolution Trains seem to be struggling to get things made just as much as Dapol, likewise Sonic. I don't blame Dapol for things taking a long time; it's the way things are in China. The BoB is a bit different pre orders were low after it was announced so the project was given a lower priority than other projects which looked more likely to provide a better return on investment. They are after all a business. As they are a business you can be sure Dapol are keener than us to get new models over here and on sale. Getting as far as samples costs Dapol hard earned cash but they don't get any cash back until it is on sale in the UK. In any business getting cash in from sales is key to the business keeping its head above water.
Hi Chris
Bachmann are part of Kader (with an "e") Industries, not Kadar (with an a).
Out of curiosity where did you get the information that pre-orders of the BoB were low? I would have though that commercially sensitive so would be very surprised if it came directly from Dapol. As far as I am aware the BoB/WC of which running EPs were seen at TINGS last year is a brand new (from wheels up) model with absolutely nothing in common with the one that was announced ten or so years ago. As the model has been newly tooled and a huge chunk of money invested with as yet no return, I would think Dapol will be as keen to launch the models as we will be to receive them.
Regards
Roy
Quote from: Chris Morris on August 09, 2025, 01:16:04 PM... The BoB is a bit different pre orders were low after it was announced so the project was given a lower priority than other projects which looked more likely to provide a better return on investment. ...
If this is accurate, it is surely a self-defeating downward spiral since received wisdom would have it that orders were low because of a lack of faith among potential buyers that Dapol would deliver in a sensible timeframe...
I didn't order for just that reason - social meeja are rife with "
...we've been waiting 10 years for this..."-ish anecdotes, which put me off, even though these are locos I would like to own.
Quote from: Chris Morris on August 09, 2025, 01:16:04 PMIt does seem that getting made in China is increasingly difficult.
What do you base that on?
The Revolution WIAs are on a boat 15 months after the announcement and 6 months after the order book opened, that seems pretty quick to me.
Regards,
John P
as regards the dapol spam can--were Dapol worried because the farish version didnt do too well ?
I can't see that being even a vague factor, it wasn't a recent model.
Quote from: Chris Morris on August 09, 2025, 01:16:04 PMIt does seem that getting made in China is increasingly difficult. Bachmann/Farish are probably better off than the others because they are part of Kadar and Kadar are the manufacturers. Revolution Trains seem to be struggling to get things made just as much as Dapol, likewise Sonic.
Hi all,
I am loathe to interject in another manufacturer's thread however I should point out that in 2025 Revolution has delivered N IHA steel carriers with Class 66 locomotives and WIA car carriers en route, and Class 313 units nearing the end of production.
In OO we have delivered a second run of OO MMA/JNA box wagons and IHA steel carriers and OO WIA car carriers are en route. There would have also been KSA wagons but when they arrived we rejected them due to unsatisfactory QC and they are being remade.
We have also displayed decorated PCA alumina tank wagons, EP samples of our PTA box wagons, JSA steel carriers, K-type Pullman cars and (admittedly not N) our TT:120 MMA/JNA box wagons.
If anything, production efficiency has returned to pre-Covid levels; however some models take longer than others and there can be any number of reasons for this and it is a normal part of the process.
cheers
Ben A.
Quote from: Bigmac on August 10, 2025, 08:28:30 AMas regards the dapol spam can--were Dapol worried because the farish version didnt do too well ?
What information is that based on, please?
Quote from: Bigmac on August 10, 2025, 08:28:30 AMas regards the dapol spam can--were Dapol worried because the farish version didnt do too well ?
I doubt it, the Farish model is/was of the "Air Smoothed"
Merchant Navy Class locomotive, a different larger and heavier loco of which only 30 were built and confined to the heaviest loads on main lines. They only existed in air-smoothed form until about 1957 when the last (Clan Line I believe) was rebuilt. So as a result, while a number of MNs have been preserved, all are as rebuilt by BR.
The West Country/Battle of Britain class on the other hand was a lighter design and as at home on a crack express as it was on a single carriage train on the single track "Withered Arm" lines of Devon. Many more were built, and a good number remained as built, retaining their "Air Smoothed" casings until withdrawn by BR (and those preserved of course still do to this day). Following withdrawal by the Southern Region (with the last going in 1967), many ended up in Woodham Brothers' scrapyard in Barry, Wales, and were not cut up but saved for preservation which is why so many survive to this day.
I suspect that because of it's broad appeal the un-rebuilt West Country/BoB Dapol are doing will actually prove to be a popular model.
So, I would conclude by saying that the un-rebuilt West Country/Battle of Britain is a completely different prospect as an N Gauge model to it's bigger brother the un-rebuilt "Merchant Navy".
I suspect that if Bachmann Farish had instead made a
rebuilt Merchant Navy, it would have been an entirely different prospect and a very popular model, but for reasons only known to them they chose not to.
Roy
Edit: I should also have said that regardless of lack of popularity, the Bachmann/Farish model of the un-rebuilt Merchant Navy Class is a fine model and it isn't the quality of it that was the issue in my opinion just the prototype chosen.
Quote from: Newportnobby on August 10, 2025, 09:28:19 AMQuote from: Bigmac on August 10, 2025, 08:28:30 AMas regards the dapol spam can--were Dapol worried because the farish version didnt do too well ?
What information is that based on, please?
Hi Mick
I am assuming that
@Bigmac is referring to the comparatively recent Bach/Farish un-rebuilt Merchant Navy rather than earlier models of the "Spam Can" from the Poole era.
The very fact that there had been a "Span Can" in the original Farish range going back to 1975/6 which lasted throughout the Poole era and even into early Bachmann days strongly suggests to me a very popular model. Of course in those days the single body casting masqueraded as both a Merchant Navy and a West country/BoB, something that would never be acceptable today.
As an aside, having seen the EP of the Dapol loco in the flesh and running at TINGS last year I can't wait to see the deco samples, it promises to be an excellent model.
Roy
Quote from: Roy L S on August 10, 2025, 10:14:31 AMQuote from: Newportnobby on August 10, 2025, 09:28:19 AMQuote from: Bigmac on August 10, 2025, 08:28:30 AMas regards the dapol spam can--were Dapol worried because the farish version didnt do too well ?
What information is that based on, please?
Hi Mick
I am assuming that @Bigmac is referring to the comparatively recent Bach/Farish un-rebuilt Merchant Navy rather than earlier models of the "Spam Can" from the Poole era.
It's why I asked, Roy. The spam can from Poole was a popular model, only suffering from the appalling front bogie afflicting all Poole locos with such.
@Ali Smith has shown that can be relatively easily corrected. I was quite surprised BachFar chose the MN over the light pacific as the MN had more limiting lines it could run on as opposed to the WC/BoB so the latter would have been more popular. My guess is that as a light pacific had been announced by Dapol they didn't want to go head-to-head. I bet they wish they had, now. We'd have had one years ago
Quote from: Newportnobby on August 10, 2025, 10:29:02 AMQuote from: Roy L S on August 10, 2025, 10:14:31 AMQuote from: Newportnobby on August 10, 2025, 09:28:19 AMQuote from: Bigmac on August 10, 2025, 08:28:30 AMas regards the dapol spam can--were Dapol worried because the farish version didnt do too well ?
What information is that based on, please?
Hi Mick
I am assuming that @Bigmac is referring to the comparatively recent Bach/Farish un-rebuilt Merchant Navy rather than earlier models of the "Spam Can" from the Poole era.
It's why I asked, Roy. The spam can from Poole was a popular model, only suffering from the appalling front bogie afflicting all Poole locos with such. @Ali Smith has shown that can be relatively easily corrected. I was quite surprised BachFar chose the MN over the light pacific as the MN had more limiting lines it could run on as opposed to the WC/BoB so the latter would have been more popular. My guess is that as a light pacific had been announced by Dapol they didn't want to go head-to-head. I bet they wish they had, now. We'd have had one years ago
yes i was referring to the most recent bachfarish merchant navy---which i thought i had read hadnt sold well--if it did--why not a re run ? Just maybe Dapol thought better of it.
Quote from: Newportnobby on August 10, 2025, 09:28:19 AMQuote from: Bigmac on August 10, 2025, 08:28:30 AMas regards the dapol spam can--were Dapol worried because the farish version didnt do too well ?
What information is that based on, please?
Isn't a question a quest for information and thus always based on a lack of information?! :worried:
My comment about slow pre-orders for the BoB does go back to when they were first announced. I'm sure it was Dapol themselves who said that the project was put on the back burner due to slow pre-orders. That was many years ago now and I am pleased to see a good level of confidence at Dapol with a lot of new tool and re-released items due in 2026. It could be an expensive year if everything comes through to expectations. My comments on other manufacturers are simply based on my own experience of actual delivery dates versus stated expected delivery. The Sonic prairie being a classic example of months turning into years but I will say it was worth the wait. I was not complaining or moaning, more sympathising.
Eclectic, I know, but a BoB and an 87 look rather tempting.
The N Gauge BoB was in abeyance for a while and it became clear that the project needed to be started from scratch with a new factory, hence the delay.
This is a brand new model in all respects, with specific tooling to suit the individual locomotives chosen. They are proving to be very popular, so I recommend getting a pre-order in if you haven't done so!
I am very excited about the Class 87s, which are due around the turn of the year. The retooled 56s should be following about a month later.
Quote from: Adam1701D on August 11, 2025, 11:56:07 AMThe N Gauge BoB has never been in abeyance but it was clear that the project needed to be started from scratch with a new factory, hence the delay. This is a brand new model in all respects, with specific tooling to suit the individual locomotives chosen. They are proving to be very popular, so I recommend getting a pre-order in if you haven't done so!
I am very excited about the Class 87s, which are due around the turn of the year. The retooled 56s should be following about a month later.
"They are proving to be very popular,"
how ?
I assume by number of pre orders taken
Quote from: Bigmac on August 11, 2025, 12:55:43 PM"They are proving to be very popular,"
how ?
Since Adam works for Dapol, I'm sure he has at least some insights that are based on fact rather than speculation, which the Forum seems to be thriving on at the moment.
And I imagine anyone working for Dapol is also keen to drum up business for Dapol.
It seems simple enough - if you want one order one, if you don't don't :D
Quote from: Chris Morris on August 09, 2025, 01:16:04 PMIt does seem that getting made in China is increasingly difficult.
Not that I've seen. It's gotten a lot more expensive for anyone not doing highly automated work because Chinese people increasingly expect to be paid actual decent wages and that's a good thing.
Quote from: Bob G on August 11, 2025, 01:58:59 PMQuote from: Bigmac on August 11, 2025, 12:55:43 PM"They are proving to be very popular,"
how ?
Since Adam works for Dapol, I'm sure he has at least some insights that are based on fact rather than speculation, which the Forum seems to be thriving on at the moment.
i wondered if they were now available and selling well.
I'm speculating here, but it's probably an increase in pre-orders since the BoB broke cover last TINGS and was running round the Dapol demonstration track.
Even so, would be nice to see real livery examples this TINGS. Otherwise it won't look like any progress has been made over the last year (ditto Manor, Mogul, Ivatt...)
Quote from: Bigmac on August 11, 2025, 03:00:36 PMQuote from: Bob G on August 11, 2025, 01:58:59 PMQuote from: Bigmac on August 11, 2025, 12:55:43 PM"They are proving to be very popular,"
how ?
Since Adam works for Dapol, I'm sure he has at least some insights that are based on fact rather than speculation, which the Forum seems to be thriving on at the moment.
i wondered if they were now available and selling well.
Apologies for the confusion - I am referring to pre-orders.
Quote from: Bob G on August 11, 2025, 04:12:37 PMI'm speculating here, but it's probably an increase in pre-orders since the BoB broke cover last TINGS and was running round the Dapol demonstration track.
Even so, would be nice to see real livery examples this TINGS. Otherwise it won't look like any progress has been made over the last year (ditto Manor, Mogul, Ivatt...)
which is why i wont pre order anything--not since the Hatton Garratt.
Quote from: Bigmac on August 11, 2025, 05:47:21 PMQuote from: Bob G on August 11, 2025, 04:12:37 PMI'm speculating here, but it's probably an increase in pre-orders since the BoB broke cover last TINGS and was running round the Dapol demonstration track.
Even so, would be nice to see real livery examples this TINGS. Otherwise it won't look like any progress has been made over the last year (ditto Manor, Mogul, Ivatt...)
which is why i wont pre order anything--not since the Hatton Garratt.
But pre-ordering doesn't cost you anything. It's a no risk activity.
By pre-ordering, at least my spreadsheet knows what I've pre-ordered...and likewise if I cancel the pre-order it's no longer there.
Some pre-orders are necessary just in case the manufacturer has a run on a particular item. I've seen situations when some OO models were sold out on pre-order and you couldn't get them unless you had pre-ordered them.
Not saying that's likely in N, but Revolution, Sonic and Rapido would certainly have you think that they won't make more than is pre-ordered, plus a bit. How much that bit is is down to the individual manufacturer.
Bob
Quote from: Adam1701D on August 11, 2025, 11:56:07 AMI am very excited about the Class 87s, which are due around the turn of the year. The retooled 56s should be following about a month later.
That's very good news. I am looking forward to running the class 56 in DCR livery !
Quote from: Bob G on August 11, 2025, 05:58:19 PMQuote from: Bigmac on August 11, 2025, 05:47:21 PMQuote from: Bob G on August 11, 2025, 04:12:37 PMI'm speculating here, but it's probably an increase in pre-orders since the BoB broke cover last TINGS and was running round the Dapol demonstration track.
Even so, would be nice to see real livery examples this TINGS. Otherwise it won't look like any progress has been made over the last year (ditto Manor, Mogul, Ivatt...)
which is why i wont pre order anything--not since the Hatton Garratt.
But pre-ordering doesn't cost you anything. It's a no risk activity.
By pre-ordering, at least my spreadsheet knows what I've pre-ordered...and likewise if I cancel the pre-order it's no longer there.
Some pre-orders are necessary just in case the manufacturer has a run on a particular item. I've seen situations when some OO models were sold out on pre-order and you couldn't get them unless you had pre-ordered them.
Not saying that's likely in N, but Revolution, Sonic and Rapido would certainly have you think that they won't make more than is pre-ordered, plus a bit. How much that bit is is down to the individual manufacturer.
Bob
pre order ( whatever that means )--but no deposit ?
Revolution - use the 'early bird' price when the order book opens for your item (you'd be mad not to) and pay either the full amount up front or 50% (Balance on despatch to you). Otherwise, you pay RRP less any discount offered by the retailer
Sonic - deposit paid when pre ordering (about £30)
Rapido - pre order your item with nothing paid until despatched to you from retailer
Farish/Dapol - when item is announced and appears on your retailers website you can order it/them without any payment up front and you get billed when the item(s) are despatched to you by the retailer
I do hope Dapol aren't relying on pre-orders to assess demand for the BoB. Given the remarkably long wait for it, I suspect that many prospective buyers are in no hurry to place one.
But surely there is no newly-tooled steam outline loco in N Gauge likely to sell better.
so the Dapol "pre" order method is nothing more than an expression of interest.
Which is meaningless.
"i might buy one if and when it is released--if i am still alive."
It's the mechanism they have. It was you who started the debate about popularity, you have an answer. Yes of course it's not a definitive metric, but shouldn't we be buoyed that a new model has healthy pre-orders? Ok a small proportion of people may not actually take the order, but I can't imagine that's overly widespread, and one presumes Dapol will have a lot of data that suggests pre-orders make up x% of sales.
Quote from: Bigmac on August 12, 2025, 07:58:31 AMso the Dapol "pre" order method is nothing more than an expression of interest.
Which is meaningless.
"i might buy one if and when it is released--if i am still alive."
Then just don't pre order one, but don't be surprised if, when you get round to ordering the variant you want, there aren't any left
You guys have saved me the need to respond, and did it so much more eloquently.
Pre-orders in for five BB/WC in BR Green.
A lot of the ones that remained air-smoothed and had tenders still with rakes also retained their early crests for some time after 1956, so not a limiting factor in my need for spam-cans.
Best
Bob
Quote from: Bigmac on August 12, 2025, 07:58:31 AMso the Dapol "pre" order method is nothing more than an expression of interest.
Which is meaningless.
"i might buy one if and when it is released--if i am still alive."
No, more likely Dapol will have been informed by pre-orders direct from customers via their online shop but also wholesale orders from retailers which will be based on their own pre-order sales/projected sales of these models. That information combined will, I am sure give Dapol a pretty good idea of the overall level of interest in the model.
In terms of deposits, as far as I am aware aside from Revolution Trains who give a very substantial discount on RRP for those who are prepared to commit funds to a project early, the only other retailer I know of who asks for a deposit (non-refundable) for their exclusive models (including Sonic) is Rails of Sheffield.
We all have a choice, pre-order or don't. In the case of the Sonic A5s for me it is a "no-brainer" as they are a "must have" model. Maybe I could wait until a couple of years after release and get them discounted, or maybe the popular liveries will have sold through by then, like many things price isn't the only factor.
Roy
Have Dapol said how many of each variant they are producing ?
Quote from: Bigmac on August 12, 2025, 11:45:03 AMHave Dapol said how many of each variant they are producing ?
That's either something that's very secret to Dapol, or it's around 200. That used to be the minimum order if you wanted to do a special. Gaugemaster Collection locos and Osbornes limited editions seem to be limited to a run of 200. Farish Collectors Club seems to be 512 (IIRC) and they used to do 2000+ for a standard version. Dapol always went the small number many version route.
Bob
Not wanting to answer for Dapol, but a guess would be they can tell from pre orders which are the most popular variant so that would get a larger percentage of the overall run.
Like I say, that's a guess, though
I don't think the ones with Squadron numbers sell quite as well as the ones with West Country names. But I expect Winston, Fighter Command and Spitfire to fly (pun intended).
But only time will tell.
Yeah - 'Spitfire' was my choice.
Quote from: Bob G on August 12, 2025, 12:03:57 PMQuote from: Bigmac on August 12, 2025, 11:45:03 AMHave Dapol said how many of each variant they are producing ?
That's either something that's very secret to Dapol, or it's around 200. That used to be the minimum order if you wanted to do a special. Gaugemaster Collection locos and Osbornes limited editions seem to be limited to a run of 200. Farish Collectors Club seems to be 512 (IIRC) and they used to do 2000+ for a standard version. Dapol always went the small number many version route.
Bob
thats interesting--i had thought 500---i thought that was usually the minimum production run. If its only 200 there will be some disappointed customers. But i wont be one of them.
They may well be doing more. Who knows. Just that at sometime they will want to amoritise their 12 years of stalled designs and redesigns.
The smaller producers seem to try to do this by having multiple purchasing opportunities in the first release, with the aim (I suspect) of clearing the cost of the Dies in the first production batch (e.g. Rapido class 28, Rapido class 44, EFE Clayton, EFE J94, Sonic Prairie, Sonic J50, Sonic 56xx, Revolution 59, Revolution 128, various other Revolution EMUs). This runs the risk of buyers being picky and leaving some variants on the shelf (that's where pre-orders are useful to the manufacturer).
Farish seem to release a larger number of units of a smaller number of liveries in each batch, with the aim of selling those, even if they are not quite what the buyer wanted. They have the distribution network that allows this. As far as the retail shop on the street goes, most of them do Farish, some do Dapol, a few others do the boutique manufacturers, although the boutiques have got themselves into the retail outlets of the big box shifters, and so raise their profile there.
What is Dapol's strategy? Well distributed, and the latest releases/pre-orders seem to have many different livery options, so it's a bit of both, I guess. Joel is an accountant first and MD second, so he will have a good idea what's going to work.
Obviously no-one can profile the railway modeller that accurately, or we wouldn't see weird liveries with big discounts, but that's the game that the manufacturers are in. Obviously the UK market is not that large, compared to OO, and almost all manufacturers have OO as part of their portfolio. That's just common sense. I feel that the O gauge bubble might just have burst, or maybe its an ego thing, but the number of units made will be well down on OO and N.
Just my thoughts.
Bob
Quote from: Newportnobby on August 12, 2025, 12:51:00 PMYeah - 'Spitfire' was my choice.
Same - (pre-)ordered last night; it was the only option working the right areas at the right time in the right livery for the layout I have in mind to build.
And I can't abide Malachite :-X
Quote from: Bob G on August 12, 2025, 12:03:57 PMQuote from: Bigmac on August 12, 2025, 11:45:03 AMHave Dapol said how many of each variant they are producing ?
That's either something that's very secret to Dapol, or it's around 200. That used to be the minimum order if you wanted to do a special. Gaugemaster Collection locos and Osbornes limited editions seem to be limited to a run of 200. Farish Collectors Club seems to be 512 (IIRC) and they used to do 2000+ for a standard version. Dapol always went the small number many version route.
Bob
Obviously I don't have this recently from the "horse's mouth" so to speak, but I do recall a long way back that at that point anyway Dapol production was said to be 300 for an individual loco livery variant per name/number.
Bachmann/Farish is 504 for limited editions/collectors club models per livery variant, 1008 for main production. Noticing that my "Collectors Club XP64 Class 47 is 11/200 suggests a further split with 200 sound fitted, 300 not, but no idea if that same split translates into their main range.
Regarding the suggestion that production batches per loco is weighted so that more of one type/name are done than another I would personally doubt it, I would suspect that each is a constant and the total orders across all models is the key figure of interest to a manufacturer to ensure an overall minimum order quantity for the model is met before production starts.
Roy
I would expect volumes for all items from all manufacturers are commercially confidential.
Quote from: Chris Morris on August 12, 2025, 04:01:54 PMI would expect volumes for all items from all manufacturers are commercially confidential.
Me too, but behind all of this "front" we are actually trying to persuade
@Bigmac that pre-ordering helps keep the industry going. Well that's my back story.
Quote from: Roy L S on August 09, 2025, 04:42:29 PMOut of curiosity where did you get the information that pre-orders of the BoB were low? I would have though that commercially sensitive so would be very surprised if it came directly from Dapol.
Regards
Roy
As stated by Joel relating to the BoB in Dapol Digest on 2nd November 2020 replying to the lack of progress on the BoB - "
I know it must be frustrating, but the simple facts are that orders have not been brilliant and it does represent a significant investment. I guess we could cancel it and put some certainty into the project, but we really do not want to do that and we all hope at Dapol, that when we do show something then orders will improve. The problem is this is a risky strategy, especially when there are more `sure fire' projects to do. All we would respectfully say, is please have a little more patience with us and we hope to have something to show early in 2021. My apologies once again." A few days later this was Joel's reply to another comment "
I did not say it was dependent on pre-orders but the relative low level of pre-orders does affect the speed of the development. I hope this is understandable from a financial standpoint." These comments can still be found in Dapol Digest if you want to check their authenticity. I think this shows Dapol being commendably honest about things, the statements also show that Dapol are genuine enthusiasts who are trying very hard to provide for us N gaugers whilst ensuring they remain a viable business. So, no criticism from me. Most of Dapol's Ngauge models are great, in my experience they run well, pull well and last well. The steam outline models in the pipeline look to be another step forward in detail and quality so it will be good to see them when they go on sale.
I say to all at Dapol - Keep up the good work!
Quote from: Chris Morris on August 12, 2025, 04:25:13 PMQuote from: Roy L S on August 09, 2025, 04:42:29 PMOut of curiosity where did you get the information that pre-orders of the BoB were low? I would have though that commercially sensitive so would be very surprised if it came directly from Dapol.
Regards
Roy
As stated by Joel relating to the BoB in Dapol Digest on 2nd November 2020 replying to the lack of progress on the BoB - "I know it must be frustrating, but the simple facts are that orders have not been brilliant and it does represent a significant investment. I guess we could cancel it and put some certainty into the project, but we really do not want to do that and we all hope at Dapol, that when we do show something then orders will improve. The problem is this is a risky strategy, especially when there are more `sure fire' projects to do. All we would respectfully say, is please have a little more patience with us and we hope to have something to show early in 2021. My apologies once again." A few days later this was Joel's reply to another comment "I did not say it was dependent on pre-orders but the relative low level of pre-orders does affect the speed of the development. I hope this is understandable from a financial standpoint." These comments can still be found in Dapol Digest if you want to check their authenticity. I think this shows Dapol being commendably honest about things, the statements also show that Dapol are genuine enthusiasts who are trying very hard to provide for us N gaugers whilst ensuring they remain a viable business. So, no criticism from me. Most of Dapol's Ngauge models are great, in my experience they run well, pull well and last well. The steam outline models in the pipeline look to be another step forward in detail and quality so it will be good to see them when they go on sale.
I say to all at Dapol - Keep up the good work!
Hi Chris
I think we must be at crossed purposes. While I don't recall that message from Joel specifically (agreed, refreshingly honest) I was aware that following the
original announcement circa 10 years ago the BoB/West Country was made a "slow burn" as interest was not as had been hoped and that was for a variety of reasons, not least of which was the price it was proposed to sell at. Also, to be fair Joel's comments from 2020 relate to that earlier proposed model and the market conditions at the time.
Since then it is true to say that a degree of cynicism has continued in some quarters regarding this model with some people quite convinced that it would never appear.
However, circa five years have passed since Joe's comment above and during that period, as Adam has said a decision was made to tool a completely new model with all latest features and having little in common with the earlier design except the prototype depicted. While inevitably the level of pre-orders from customers/retailers is not something that a manufacturer will typically disclose (unless perhaps for a crowdfunded model needing to achieve a MOQ) I think it is safe to conclude that Dapol would not be moving the model through the various stages of development and giving an approximate release date unless they were pretty confident they would sell enough to meet the minimum order required from the factory.
Having personally seen the WC/BoB, Manor and Mogul EPs at pretty close quarters, based on current progress I would have to agree with what you say, these "new generation" Dapol steam locos have little in common with their predecessors in terms of design and quality, and when released I think will prove to be
at least as good as the very best available from other manufacturers.
Regards
Roy
Quote from: Chris Morris on August 12, 2025, 04:01:54 PMI would expect volumes for all items from all manufacturers are commercially confidential.
I think it was actually Dave Jones who told me at that time anyway, Dapol loco production was 300 per livery variant. Of course I accept that was quite some years ago, and things may be different today but I suspect not markedly so.
As to Bachmann's Graham Farish, I can tell from my "Collectors Club" limited edition certificates
exactly how many of what has been produced as they are quite specific. The Collectors Club Anchor mounted tank wagons was a run of 504, the Mk1 POTs were runs of 350 each of two running numbers, The XP64 Class 47 is split with 200 sound fitted and according to the Collectors Club website 300 without sound so as I said 500 in total (the odd 4 as I understand it was a "spares" contingency).
It is quite commonly known that main range Farish production runs is 1008 per livery variant regardless of model (loco, coach or wagon) and has been for a pretty long time. More recently we have seen more than one running number for a livery variant and what I do not know/cannot say is whether that is 1008 or 504 for each individually.
Regards
Roy
Quote from: Newportnobby on August 12, 2025, 12:51:00 PMYeah - 'Spitfire' was my choice.
So long as the motor doesn't live up to the name :D
Quote from: Chris Morris on August 12, 2025, 04:01:54 PMI would expect volumes for all items from all manufacturers are commercially confidential.
confidential - everyone knows
secret - everyone who cares to know, knows
top secret - everyone in the industry knows
need to know basis - all the competitors know
It's pretty much impossible to keep those kind of things secret over years.
Quote from: Bob G on August 12, 2025, 04:07:08 PMQuote from: Chris Morris on August 12, 2025, 04:01:54 PMI would expect volumes for all items from all manufacturers are commercially confidential.
Me too, but behind all of this "front" we are actually trying to persuade @Bigmac that pre-ordering helps keep the industry going. Well that's my back story.
another thought ive had about the apparent reluctance by some potential customers to pre order any Dapol product--was the often expressed comments about poor running, noisy motors, and sometimes flimsy build quality of earlier offerings. I think Dapol must know a lot depends on getting their next steam model right.
I really hope they do.
I don't pre-order anything (Revolution products aside), for no real reason. Just don't. I buy stuff when it comes out. Not missed out yet.