N Gauge Forum

Does anyone care to speculate on what the next steam loco from Sonic will be? Any nets on a N gauge version of the GCR A5 pacific tank? They already produce it in OO, and it doesn't have complex external valve gear. We could do with a RTR passenger tank for the LNER!

That would do nicely, or a V3

Having done a few tank engines, I'm hoping they will venture into larger locos - I'm holding out for a King or a County

Sorry I just cannot read the name Sonic without thinking of a certain blue hedgehog  :D  :D

isnt it a large prairie ?

Quote from: Conor1410David on January 17, 2024, 04:06:45 PMAny bets on a N gauge version of the GCR A5 pacific tank?

Quote from: mojo on January 17, 2024, 05:36:36 PMThat would do nicely, or a V3

LNER Class A5 No. 69839, Class V1 No. 67664, and Class L1 No. 67733 on shed.


Any large LNER tank locos by any manufacturer would be welcome.

Ian

Yes its supposed to be a Large Prairie but it seems to have got lost at the moment ,If anyone has any info on whats happening can they post a message on here for all who have paid a deposit .
Bob

Last update from @martyn was here @Bob Tidbury
https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?msg=819004

Quote from: Conor1410David on January 17, 2024, 04:06:45 PMDoes anyone care to speculate on what the next steam loco from Sonic will be? Any nets on a N gauge version of the GCR A5 pacific tank? They already produce it in OO, and it doesn't have complex external valve gear. We could do with a RTR passenger tank for the LNER!

After the Large Prairiue?

Well that's a difficult one as the Newton Chambers car carriers came right out of "left field". What we do know is that Sam has said he produces models he "likes" and I recall it was said he has a thing about Great Western locos. I believe it was also said he would initially be concentrating on tank locos with simpler motion, but precisely what "initially" might mean is open to interpretation.

GW is actually pretty well covered, missing just a few larger classes including the King. My personal view is that the King has been tarnished by the DJM debacle, followed by the KR Models saying it was on their radar and then stopping. The County is an interesting thought, especially with one being reproduced by preservationists, but I doubt it would be that either. Panniers done to death by Farish and Dapol, Small Prairie and 14/48xx in Dapol's portfolio and candidates for upgrade following the Ivatt - Sam will doubtless be aware of this so I very much doubt one of those either. I doubt 0-6-0 tender types would be entertained as UM did the Dean Goods until recently and both UM and Peco have done the Collett 0-6-0. So my conclusion is it won't be Great Western. Edit: and of course Dapol have a 43xx Mogul in the works too.

The A5 certainly appeared a popular model in OO and sold well, albeit of course we don't know how many were produced in total. This loco does have certain factors in it's favour including R&D already having been done, simplicity, large cab/tank area making layout of chassis/DCC interface relatively simple (possibly even room for a speaker in the bunker). It had a long service life, carried a number of liveries including (importantly) BR early and late crest, it was found over a reasonably large part of the LNER (BR Eastern) network. Against all this, as a main line passenger tank loco it's duties were relatively limited, and aside from Dapol Gresleys (Farish BR Suburbans at a stretch?) not much available for it to haul and this same limitation would apply to other LNER passenger tank locos such as V1/V3 and L1. In fact as an aside, some LNER suburban coaches would be very nice  :)

I don't know very much about Southern, but with Dapol already having the West Country/Battle of Britain in the works, Farish doing a lovely Unrebuilt Merchant Navy, N Class and C Class, Dapol the Schools, M7 and Terrier I would think the basics are covered.

LMS (BR London Midland) we have Dapol already upgrading the Ivatt 2MT tank loco, Farish doing/having done Jinty, recently upgraded Fowler 4F and Ivatt 2MT, Fairburn Tank, 8F, Black Five, Jubilee, Scot and Duchess fairly recently. The obvious gap would be a Mogul, the Farish Crab never made it into Bachmann's retooled range and nobody has ever done a Stanier Mogul or Ivatt "Flying Pig" ready to run, but I an not sure whether either would be strong enough sellers in N  :hmmm:

BR Standards have been comprehensively covered by Dapol and Farish with the only "gaps" being Class 2 tank and tender locos (too similar to the Ivatt 2MTs they were based on?), 3MT tender loco, 6P "Clan" and of course the singleton 8P Duke of Gloucester. Of the BR Standards a 9F to modern standards would be nice, but Dapol have done a run of theirs fairly recently so I doubt that.

LNER wise, we have already had the J50. These are still freely available at Rails, and have been discounted for a time to £89.99 (£20 off original list) so a good supply available and I doubt Sam would do another small 0-6-0 tank just yet especially given the EFE J94 recently launched. That said, coverage of LNER types in general is fairly limited, especially now that we have lost the more niche models Union Mills provided. From memory, on top of the J50 and J94, relatively recently available have been just a Farish J39 (another batch being made), Farish B1, Farish A1 and A2, Dapol A3, A4 and "Footballer". Missing is a heavy goods loco like a Robinson "ROD" 2-8-0, or a mixed traffic Mogul type like a K3 or K1. BUT how about an LNER B12 to modern spec done with the proper small GE tender? Yes, UM did one, but with the wrong tender. It is a relatively simple model, with a large boiler/firebox to hide a mechanism and even in rebuilt form as the B12/3 had a decent innings through to BR late crest with one preserved on the North Norfolk Railway (currently undergoing overhaul).

So, after all that head scratching, what I can say is that I think it will be another relatively simple design, possibly with outside cylinders but I'd say forget outside Walschaerts valve gear. Maybe the A5 isn't too far off the mark after all, but in some ways a B12 or Robinson "ROD" would tick a number of Sam's boxes too I would think.

Roy

With Sam's predilection for Western locos, the 42xx/52xx 2-8-0T and 72xx 2-8-2T could be possibilities but are limited area wise to mainly S. Wales.
I'm sure some would welcome a nicely detailed 2P or 4P 4-4-0.
Plenty to go at for SR modellers such as S-15 and N-15 although class numbers were small.
A K1 would be very nice :D

@Roy L S

a well reasoned piece, and I'd love a B12/3 or two.

As a small aside, the big LNER tanks (V1/3, L1, and A5) worked 'main line' sets on the ex GE area, especially around Norwich on the through coaches from Liverpool Street to Cromer, Sheringham, Yarmouth, and Lowestoft, etc, loading up to 11 corridor coaches at times.

Martyn

Quote from: martyn on January 18, 2024, 03:21:10 PM@Roy L S

a well reasoned piece, and I'd love a B12/3 or two.

As a small aside, the big LNER tanks (V1/3, L1, and A5) worked 'main line' sets on the ex GE area, especially around Norwich on the through coaches from Liverpool Street to Cromer, Sheringham, Yarmouth, and Lowestoft, etc, loading up to 11 corridor coaches at times.

Martyn

The big LNER tanks were also common around Hull, everything from branch workings (BR MK1 Suburbans certainly appropriate) to stoppers on the main line with almost any corridor stock. Several A5s got to Hull, often used as Station Pilots at Paragon.
V3s even worked the Hull portion of the Yorkshire Pullman from Doncaster, so a V3 with 4 or 5 of Revolution's K type Pullman's when they arrive would be perfectly prototypical.

As far as tender locos are concerned the biggest "holes" in steam era models are  (in my opinion):

SR: 4-6-0 hasn't been done at all. LSWR N15 (SR King Arthur) would be top of my list.

LNER: Missing 4-4-0 and 2-6-0. D11 would be my choice of 4-4-0. I'd option for the Thompson K1 as a 2-6-0 - decent number built and one preserved (although I'd prefer a K4 for my 1980s steam specials)

LMS: like the LNER it's missing 4-4-0 and 2-6-0. Fowler MR 2P and Stanier Crab are my locos of choice.

GWR: 2251 class 0-6-0 would go well amongst the models already produced. Made several years ago by Peco with a rarely used tender but never re-run. Otherwise, an outside frame 4-4-0 could be fun - 3200 Earl or 3600 City would be my choices (one of each preserved).

BR: I can't see any of the missing locos being done any time soon. I'm not familiar enough with the prototypes but would a new boiler on the Dapol Britannia give you a Clan? Duke of Gloucester would be nice but the unusual valve gear could be tricky to pull off.

Personally I'd like to see a 0-6-2 Webb Coal tank and a L&YR Class 5 (2-4-2 tank) or Class 27 (0-6-0 tender)

Steven B.

Some logical reasoned suggestions from some contributors but very quickly descending to yet another "wish list" from others.

Looking at what we know of Sam's preference and history:

We can be 95% sure of it being a Tank loco.
Maybe 60% chance GWR, 35% LNER, 5% Others.
Most likely 6 coupled with or without leading and/or trailing trucks.
Inside cylinders & valve gear or outside cylinders with inside valve gear (simple o/s motion)

So what fits that tighter criteria?

Quote from: PLD on January 18, 2024, 04:27:59 PMSome logical reasoned suggestions from some contributors but very quickly descending to yet another "wish list" from others.

Looking at what we know of Sam's preference and history:

We can be 95% sure of it being a Tank loco.
Maybe 60% chance GWR, 35% LNER, 5% Others.
Most likely 6 coupled with or without leading and/or trailing trucks.
Inside cylinders & valve gear or outside cylinders with inside valve gear (simple o/s motion)

So what fits that tighter criteria?

Not sure about another GW being quite such a high prospect, as far as I am aware the principal tank locos are pretty much all taken apart from the 42xx/72xx series which were very limited both in terms of duties and geographically.

Thinking LNER one tank loco I forgot earlier which would be logical as it is technically quite similar to the 56xx and fits many of those tighter criteria would of course be the LNER N2 tank loco  :hmmm: . As well as use on suburban passenger trains in and around London they could latterly be found much further into East Anglia and some even in Scotland. Of course one is preserved too.

Regards

Roy

GWR Small Prairie? Different tank tops are available too (even if they went out of date in the 1970s).

Bob

Quote from: Ensign Elliott on January 17, 2024, 06:43:16 PMHaving done a few tank engines, I'm hoping they will venture into larger locos - I'm holding out for a King or a County

I understand that Sam of Sonic designed the (DCC ready) Coronation Pacifics (Duchesses) when he worked for Bachmann.

I imagine he is taking things slowly, building a reputation/following before producing an N Tender loco. Yes a King or County would be nice, but I think a County would be a better option with it's straight splasher and nameplate. Also the flat sided Hawksworth tender makes them something just a bit different.

I'd buy an A5 if offered by Sonic. The research has been done for the OO versions.
Arguably, a good fit alongside Sonic's GWR large prairie as both classes worked on the Great Central-GW joint line.

Just absolutely random speculation for fun (as most of this is anyway), but I wonder if Sam might have a go at testing his limits a bit in the other direction and make a smaller loco like a 13xx (with the potential of both the saddle and pannier variant bodies on the same chassis) or a Manning Wardle 0-6-0.

If he was really pushing the limits (especially in terms of still being able to get a DCC chip in) there's a few 0-4-0s that might be viable, but I suspect the smaller 0-6-0 classes are the practical bottom limit for RTR at the moment.

Quote from: Steven B on January 18, 2024, 04:14:50 PMGWR: 2251 class 0-6-0 would go well amongst the models already produced. Made several years ago by Peco with a rarely used tender but never re-run. Otherwise, an outside frame 4-4-0 could be fun - 3200 Earl or 3600 City would be my choices (one of each preserved).

Well I have two (2) Peco 0-6-0 locos...so don't need any more. I also have all of the now OOP UM GWR locos, including their 4-4-0 outside frame ones....great locos. So not sure what else I need. I could have bought the Sonic GWR tank loco but I didn't for a few reasons (1) it was expensive (2) while I do love GWR I couldn't see a use for this specific loco type for my collection. I would however love a King, a County, a Saint...some 3D options out there and I might go that way. Yet, first, I have to find time to do a lot of other projects.

Given that a lot of the UM models had very limited valve gear and all are now out of production a model from these would be nice to see. I would love to see more 4-4-0 locos.

A proper Collett 0-6-0 goods with a proper tender would be great (particularly as no one is making a Southern 4-6-0 soon)

All good fun wishlisting, and as a NER area modeller I'd be happy with any of the LNER types that have been mentioned (apart from the B13) - even the N2 was seen on the Alston branch (once?  :D ). Really hope he does the obvious and shrinks the A5.

But the huge gap, as Kris said above, is 4-4-0 tender locos, for all companies.

4-4-0 and 0-6-0 tender locos were *the* two quintessential British steam loco types for over a century, massively outnumbering all other wheel arrangements, but you wouldn't think so looking at RTR manufacturers' ranges (in 4mm as well as N).

Whenever anyone says "all the obvious prototypes have gone" for RTR manufacturers I give a hollow laugh! As far as 4-4-0s are concerned they've barely scratched the surface.

Richard

theres plenty of 4-4-0 types from Union Mills--regularly listed on ebay.

Quote from: Bigmac on January 19, 2024, 07:49:44 AMtheres plenty of 4-4-0 types from Union Mills--regularly listed on ebay.

In fact thanks to Union Mills British N has been well served in terms of 4-4-0 tender locos, made possible by using a single basic tender-drive and some compromises around accuracy of the tenders used. From memory I think we have seen: -

- LNER D20
- LNER D11
- LNER D16/3

- LMS 2P

- SR T9

- GW "Dukedog"
- GW "City"

There have been a few kits but the only other RTR 4-4-0s I am aware of in British N since the very start are: -

Farish

- LMS Compound

Dapol

- Southern Schools

By Comparison OO hasn't done a lot better in terms of mainstream RTR 4-4-0s (OO Works may also have made a couple of models): -

Bachmann

- D11
- Compound
- GW "City"
- GW "Dukedog"

Dapol

- Two SR 4-4-0s as a limited edition (I think for Rails).

Hornby

All "legacy" models but from memory: -

- LNER "Shire"
- LMS 2P
- LMS Compound
- GW "County" (original not 4-6-0)
- SR Schools

Plus the venerable original Tri-Ang Southern L1.

I absolutely agree that 4-4-0s were a backbone of the railways for many years, especially as regards passenger services even if withdrawals began in earnest in the mid-1950s.

 I would imagine that for Bachmann and others with the move to loco drive being seen as a "must" for a variety of reasons including DCC and space for a speaker, in N, arranging the mechanism and adhesive weight so that a loco can haul a respectable train could be a challenge, possibly overcome in part at least by having a cast metal body and traction tyres. In terms of getting a motor in, I can't see a problem if one can be squeezed in the C Class.

Of course Dapol have made the Schools Class utilising their tender mounted motor and shaft to loco-drive which clearly provides an alternative way of doing things but I don't think it is something that would meet expectations for new-tool models these days.

So after all that can I realistically see anyone producing a 4-4-0 to modern standards in N going forward?

The short answer is "no" but if anyone were to, I would discount it being Bachmann or Dapol, more likely I would think Sonic or Rapido.

Roy

Quote from: Bigmac on January 19, 2024, 07:49:44 AMtheres plenty of 4-4-0 types from Union Mills--regularly listed on ebay.

The point being that Union Mills no longer exist, and were a niche manufacturer when they did exist.

But yes, they were the only manufacturer who acknowledged the types of locos which formed the backbone of the British steam railway era. I'd hope that with UM's demise one of the other more high-fidelity manufacturers might see the potential in some of their prototypes. A biggish 4-4-0, especially one with large splashers, shouldn't present too many motor/weight issues. And as for haulage powers - short light trains are what 4-4-0s pulled. Four bogies would do. Otherwise copy the Midland and double-head!

Richard

RT

The real void is anything smaller than a Terrier/J94. In OO Hornby have sold a lot of Pecketts and Rustons (even if Hattons didn't manage to sell enough Barclays).

Mike

Quote from: Richard Taylor on January 19, 2024, 01:13:00 PM

Quote from: Bigmac on January 19, 2024, 07:49:44 AMtheres plenty of 4-4-0 types from Union Mills--regularly listed on ebay.

The point being that Union Mills no longer exist, and were a niche manufacturer when they did exist.

But yes, they were the only manufacturer who acknowledged the types of locos which formed the backbone of the British steam railway era. I'd hope that with UM's demise one of the other more high-fidelity manufacturers might see the potential in some of their prototypes. A biggish 4-4-0, especially one with large splashers, shouldn't present too many motor/weight issues. And as for haulage powers - short light trains are what 4-4-0s pulled. Four bogies would do. Otherwise copy the Midland and double-head!

Richard

RT

Absolutely, from my perspective I was just acknowledging what Union Mills has delivered for N modellers and reflecting who (if anyone) might make a 4-4-0 going forward.

I am not so sure that large wheels/splashers would be an advantage for a manufacturer as there would be a need to squeeze a motor into a very limited space between them, probably requiring a coreless motor of 7mm diameter. I would also challenge the notion that they only pulled short trains, it may have been true in some cases, like 2Ps on the Somerset and Dorset, but locos like D11s and D20s were often expected to pull a lot more than than a few coaches, so as well as a cast body for weight over the drivers, I would think traction tyres inevitable as part of any design.

However it is all theoretical and likely to remain so as in my humble opinion a new 4-4-0 of any type is unlikely from any other manufacturer following the closure of Union Mills, and I feel fortunate to have three such models, including the D20 and D16/3 which I will probably end up chipping at some point.

Roy

so--beside the 56xx gw tank loco--did sonic also do the j94 saddle tank and the j class tank with the holes in the side ? (the latter 2 held no interest for me--i dont do ER locos ).

It would be nice to see something with outside motion though.

Quote from: Bigmac on January 19, 2024, 05:10:22 PMso--beside the 56xx gw tank loco--did sonic also do the j94 saddle tank and the j class tank with the holes in the side ? (the latter 2 held no interest for me--i dont do ER locos ).

It would be nice to see something with outside motion though.

The 56xx is a Sonic product as is the J50 (with holes in the sides as you put it) the J94 (as it was classified in LNER parlance) is an EFE product and while the LNER did buy a number (75) it is actually a War Department Austerity product designed by RA Riddles and built by Hunslet and subcontractors so is more of an industrial loco.

Quote from: Bigmac on January 19, 2024, 05:10:22 PMso--beside the 56xx gw tank loco--did sonic also do the j94 saddle tank and the j class tank with the holes in the side ? (the latter 2 held no interest for me--i dont do ER locos ).

It would be nice to see something with outside motion though.

Roy's answered the first part. On your second point, depending on what you mean by "outside motion", the forthcoming Sonic GWR Large Praire has outside cylinders, crossheads & slide bars (the prototype's valve gear was inside of course) so they can do it.

Richard

Quote from: Richard Taylor on January 20, 2024, 01:31:55 AM

Quote from: Bigmac on January 19, 2024, 05:10:22 PMso--beside the 56xx gw tank loco--did sonic also do the j94 saddle tank and the j class tank with the holes in the side ? (the latter 2 held no interest for me--i dont do ER locos ).

It would be nice to see something with outside motion though.

Roy's answered the first part. On your second point, depending on what you mean by "outside motion", the forthcoming Sonic GWR Large Praire has outside cylinders, crossheads & slide bars (the prototype's valve gear was inside of course) so they can do it.

Richard

it will be interesting to see when it arrives.

Quote from: Roy L S on January 19, 2024, 05:55:03 PM

Quote from: Bigmac on January 19, 2024, 05:10:22 PMso--beside the 56xx gw tank loco--did sonic also do the j94 saddle tank and the j class tank with the holes in the side ? (the latter 2 held no interest for me--i dont do ER locos ).

It would be nice to see something with outside motion though.

The 56xx is a Sonic product as is the J50 (with holes in the sides as you put it) the J94 (as it was classified in LNER parlance) is an EFE product and while the LNER did buy a number (75) it is actually a War Department Austerity product designed by RA Riddles and built by Hunslet and subcontractors so is more of an industrial loco.

i get confused between Sonic and Efe.  Did Efe make any other steam outline locos ?

Quote from: Bigmac on January 20, 2024, 10:50:01 AMi get confused between Sonic and Efe.  Did Efe make any other steam outline locos ?

No. In fact, everything from EFE seems to have come from original ideas/CAD/tooling from Dave Jones now defunct D.J. Models.
The Clayton class 17, the Shark brake van, the Mermaid and the J94, although the latter is pure suspicion on my part. I'm just hoping the class 23 might appear :D

has Revolution made any steam locos ?

Quote from: Bigmac on January 20, 2024, 04:08:09 PMhas Revolution made any steam locos ?

Not in N but they are in the process of developing a rather lovely Vale of Rheidol loco in OO9.

Quote from: Roy L S on January 20, 2024, 05:26:38 PM

Quote from: Bigmac on January 20, 2024, 04:08:09 PMhas Revolution made any steam locos ?

Not in N but they are in the process of developing a rather lovely Vale of Rheidol loco in OO9.

perhaps Revo think the steam loco fraternity is all ready well served.  I wonder what THE most popular best selling steam loco so far NOT offered could be ?

That's easy, Hogwarts Express. Not my thing but definitely will sell better than anything else.

Quote from: Bigmac on January 20, 2024, 07:11:43 PM

Quote from: Roy L S on January 20, 2024, 05:26:38 PM

Quote from: Bigmac on January 20, 2024, 04:08:09 PMhas Revolution made any steam locos ?

Not in N but they are in the process of developing a rather lovely Vale of Rheidol loco in OO9.

perhaps Revo think the steam loco fraternity is all ready well served.  I wonder what THE most polular best selling steam loco so far NOT offered could be ?

²

More a case of steam not being an area of great knowledge for the RevolutioN team whose expertise is more typically but not exclusively modern prototypes.

The second question is a really interesting one where you could as ten different people and each would probably give a different answer. For me if we are talking ready to run my thoughts based on the almost ever present Horncy model in OO would be the LMS Princess Royal Class.

Roy

Quote from: Roy L S on January 20, 2024, 08:19:16 PM

Quote from: Bigmac on January 20, 2024, 07:11:43 PM

Quote from: Roy L S on January 20, 2024, 05:26:38 PM

Quote from: Bigmac on January 20, 2024, 04:08:09 PMhas Revolution made any steam locos ?

Not in N but they are in the process of developing a rather lovely Vale of Rheidol loco in OO9.

perhaps Revo think the steam loco fraternity is all ready well served.  I wonder what THE most polular best selling steam loco so far NOT offered could be ?

²

More a case of steam not being an area of great knowledge for the RevolutioN team whose expertise is more typically but not exclusively modern prototypes.

The second question is a really interesting one where you could as ten different people and each would probably give a different answer. For me if we are talking ready to run my thoughts based on the almost ever present Horncy model in OO would be the LMS Princess Royal Class.

Roy

which begs the question--why havent "they"

Quote from: Bigmac on January 20, 2024, 07:11:43 PMI wonder what THE most polular best selling steam loco so far NOT offered could be ?

Maybe until it's offered we won't know how popular it is ;)
As Roy says, all sorts of answers get given to various polls
A 2013 NGF poll and a 2014 RMWeb poll showed both the N15 King Arthur class and Lord Nelson classes high in the top 10 but would that be the same now?

Quote from: bigdawgks on January 20, 2024, 07:18:48 PMThat's easy, Hogwarts Express. Not my thing but definitely will sell better than anything else.

"Hogwarts Castle" was actually "Oulton Hall" in a dodgy paint scheme... Dapol already do a Hall (albeit they've not done factory finished version as HC yet, but at least a couple of repaints around) so it's a very safe bet that will NOT be the next Sonic Model (not that Sonic have actually been considered for at least the last dozen posts ::) )

For sure it won't, I was just answering in the context of THE best selling locomotive that could be made. Personally I'm still hoping for an LMS 2P in the near future.

Wash, rinse, repeat, wash, rinse, repeat......  :sleep:

Just on the off chance that anyone remembers the original subject of this thread, I think there is one possible candidate to be Sonic's next loco – the LNER Class J72 0-6-0T.  I am suggesting this because I want one! 

Forum members may remember that both Dapol and Bachmann announced plans to produce a J72 model; Dapol in their 2014/15 catalogue and Bachmann in their 2015/16 catalogue.  (It always seemed odd to me that Bachmann would announce a model after Dapol had already announced their plans to produce a J72).

As we all know, neither manufacturer produced a model of this class.  I do not know the reasons for cancelling their plans but Bachmann stated that the model had been deferred because "they had identified a small number of models for which the current economic conditions do not favour further investment." 

I also heard stories that, because of the small size of the loco, "it was too difficult," even though we have had several very small RTR locos produced in N gauge. 

The NER Class E1 that became LNER Class J72 was unusual (possibly unique) in that the locos were built by the NER starting in 1898 (75 locos), the LNER (10 locos) and by BR (28 locos).  The loco design remained essentially unchanged throughout this building period. 

The longevity of the locomotives and the variety of livery options also strengthens the argument for consideration. 

I well remember seeing No. 68723 repainted in NER livery with both the NER coat-of arms and the BR late crest used for shunting work at Newcastle Central Station in the early 1960s. 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/77063039@N08/52294894226

A similar liveried version was also assigned to York Station shunting duties at the same time. 

The argument against the J72 in N gauge includes technical challenges producing a small tank loco (if this is, in fact real) and, more likely, because there have been two recent 0-6-0T locos produced to modern standards; the Sonic J50 and the EFE J94 austerity tank.  A layout can only use so many such locos. 

I think that a more realistic suggestion for Sonic is the LNER Class A5 (as previously discussed) as they have already produced such a model in 00, have already done the research, and will possibly be able to estimate potential N gauge sales based on actual 00 gauge sales.

Failing a RTR J72, how about a 3D print?  Anyone willing to try? 

Ian

Amongst the reasons given by Bachmann for dropping the J72 was indeed technical challenges given the size of the loco including lack of availability of a small enough motor. Given the expectation of a DCC socket in the specification these days, I am thinking that those technical challenges would remain as big today. While there have been some quite small locos such as the NGS Hunslet and EFE J94 more recently, next to those the J72 is still fairly diminutive so personally I can't see it being taken on.

Personally I hope the A5 is indeed next, there are many logical points in it's favour as a Sonic product and on the commercial side Sam would have a feel for the numbers I am sure.

Time will tell...

Roy

Quote from: bigdawgks on January 21, 2024, 01:53:50 AMFor sure it won't, I was just answering in the context of THE best selling locomotive that could be made. Personally I'm still hoping for an LMS 2P in the near future.

are you aware Union Mills made the lms 2P ?  they do come up on ebay quite often

heres one--
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/186252901487

Quote from: Roy L S on January 20, 2024, 08:19:16 PM

Quote from: Bigmac on January 20, 2024, 07:11:43 PM

Quote from: Roy L S on January 20, 2024, 05:26:38 PM

Quote from: Bigmac on January 20, 2024, 04:08:09 PMhas Revolution made any steam locos ?

Not in N but they are in the process of developing a rather lovely Vale of Rheidol loco in OO9.

perhaps Revo think the steam loco fraternity is all ready well served.  I wonder what THE most polular best selling steam loco so far NOT offered could be ?

²

More a case of steam not being an area of great knowledge for the RevolutioN team whose expertise is more typically but not exclusively modern prototypes.

The second question is a really interesting one where you could as ten different people and each would probably give a different answer. For me if we are talking ready to run my thoughts based on the almost ever present Horncy model in OO would be the LMS Princess Royal Class.

Roy

i agree--the princess royal gets my vote as the loco most likely to be the best seller if ever it was mass produced.  I'm not biased--not on my wish list
( i scooped a bargain on ebay--a kit built by a craftman--superbly detailed painted and lined. I thank the person who built it )

Whoops--strayed off topic.

So--perhaps Sonic might care to consider the suggestions in this thread.  It would be great if Sonic were to produce a real best seller.
Go for it Sonic !

Quote from: PLD on January 21, 2024, 12:21:47 AM

Quote from: bigdawgks on January 20, 2024, 07:18:48 PMThat's easy, Hogwarts Express. Not my thing but definitely will sell better than anything else.

"Hogwarts Castle" was actually "Oulton Hall" in a dodgy paint scheme... Dapol already do a Hall (albeit they've not done factory finished version as HC yet, but at least a couple of repaints around) so it's a very safe bet that will NOT be the next Sonic Model (not that Sonic have actually been considered for at least the last dozen posts ::) )

Anything Harry Potter is always an extra level of challenge when it comes to licensing as JKR has veto control over everything and is currently doing her damndest to cancel herself.

So you'd have the problem that you could go through the expense of licensing for a Hogwarts Castle model + set, manufacturing a run of the loco and coaches and then get told, "Sorry, they all have to go in the bin as JKR doesn't like the shade of red or some random issue" (happened to one manufacturer just as we were starting the first game). Or get them to shops just in time for her to post something on XTwitter that kills interest (WB are already pulling back from future film projects).

Given the amount of money you'd be expected to front just for the license even before you go through the design and manufacturing costs it just seems like a crazy risk for a manufacturer to take.

Quote from: zwilnik on January 21, 2024, 03:29:59 PM

Quote from: PLD on January 21, 2024, 12:21:47 AM

Quote from: bigdawgks on January 20, 2024, 07:18:48 PMThat's easy, Hogwarts Express. Not my thing but definitely will sell better than anything else.

"Hogwarts Castle" was actually "Oulton Hall" in a dodgy paint scheme... Dapol already do a Hall (albeit they've not done factory finished version as HC yet, but at least a couple of repaints around) so it's a very safe bet that will NOT be the next Sonic Model (not that Sonic have actually been considered for at least the last dozen posts ::) )

Anything Harry Potter is always an extra level of challenge when it comes to licensing as JKR has veto control over everything and is currently doing her damndest to cancel herself.

So you'd have the problem that you could go through the expense of licensing for a Hogwarts Castle model + set, manufacturing a run of the loco and coaches and then get told, "Sorry, they all have to go in the bin as JKR doesn't like the shade of red or some random issue" (happened to one manufacturer just as we were starting the first game). Or get them to shops just in time for her to post something on XTwitter that kills interest (WB are already pulling back from future film projects).

Given the amount of money you'd be expected to front just for the license even before you go through the design and manufacturing costs it just seems like a crazy risk for a manufacturer to take.

i know the feeling.  At my local steam railway--they put on a Thomas the tank weekend--with huge fees paid to whichever owner of the copyright was flavour of the month that year.  To begin with it was a huge success..but gradually greed took over and it became too expensive to do it.

But the rules imposed--" the fat controller not allowed to have a beard" amongst many.

sorry--back to Sonic.

Lots of heritage railways stopped impersonating Thomas and Friends because of copyright issues.

I think the world has gone crazy.

When I started my business 8 years ago, I was soon approached by Gregory Logistics for having a logo that was too close to theirs (a circle), a font that was identical (Helvetica - the first font that leaps out at you), and text in the same place relative to the logo!

We got it sorted and I was actually happier with the end result. They were upset because their clients were approaching them and asking if I was part of their group. I put my logo together without it even crossing my mind that they were similar.

Hey Ho!

Bob (not Gregory Environmental)

Hi,
I remember that Sam tested an N Gauge tender loco at TINGS, possibly in 2021. I wonder what happened to that!!
Cheers,
Ged.

Quote from: rusticged on August 13, 2024, 11:41:02 AMHi,
I remember that Sam tested an N Gauge tender loco at TINGS, possibly in 2021. I wonder what happened to that!!
Cheers,
Ged.

I've been to all the TINGS recently and I have seen the SONIC GWR 56xx, the GWR large prairie, and the J50. I've not seen any tender loco. Are you sure about this?

Bob

Quote from: Bob G on August 13, 2024, 11:58:42 AM

Quote from: rusticged on August 13, 2024, 11:41:02 AMHi,
I remember that Sam tested an N Gauge tender loco at TINGS, possibly in 2021. I wonder what happened to that!!
Cheers,
Ged.

I've been to all the TINGS recently and I have seen the SONIC GWR 56xx, the GWR large prairie, and the J50. I've not seen any tender loco. Are you sure about this?

Bob

That is news to me as well, the only locos I recall being "tested" on layouts at TINGS were ones we know about, in 2021 the Large Prairie was announced and an EP seen I believe..

Sorry Folks,
Perhaps I am going senile in my old age. It must have been the prairie and I was beguiled by extra wheels after the 56XX and J50. I should have taken a photo!!!
Cheers,
Ged.

No. Sonic haven't ever produced an N gauge tender loco.

Martyn

Or one with External valve gear... so perhaps a turbomotive has a better chance than a princess, or DoG perhaps

Quote from: class8mikado on August 15, 2024, 12:08:16 PMOr one with External valve gear... so perhaps a turbomotive has a better chance than a princess, or DoG perhaps

Maybe but the K class has similar outside motion to the large prairie.

Probably an A5...

 :-\

N Gauge News has an item which shows the CAD drawings from Sonic for a Robinson A5 GC/LNER!

Quote from: Greygreaser on August 29, 2024, 09:06:17 AMN Gauge News has an item which shows the CAD drawings from Sonic for a Robinson A5 GC/LNER!

It was announced a couple of weeks ago, I think there is a separate thread about it.

Regards

Roy

There is, and Rails have recently posted a CAD update drawing.

Martyn

See..........................

https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?msg=839220