I've seen models of full brake coaches in Brown & Cream and Red & Cream but cannot find any photos of those liveries in use on the actual railway. Are these liveries just for model railways or did they exist in reality?
regards
Which region, when, and which design of stock?
For instance, BR mk1 corridor-fitted BGs had crimson and cream from new, except for two batches.
Martyn
I understand that BR(S) borrowed (i.e. acquired by devious means and didn't return) a couple of WR Chocolate and cream BGs to top and tail the Bournemouth Belle in the early 1960s, after the wooden bodied Pullman brake vans were retired and all steel K type Pullmans were transferred from the ER. The SR didn't inherit any K type Pullman brakes from the ER (come on Revolution! We need a Bomo Belle rake please).
Later on, around the time the Class 47s were doing the Belle, Maroon BGs were used. There seem to be plenty photos of these!
I think the pictures are out there, but of course more people were interested in the locos than rolling stock in those days. Remember there were not that many chocolate and cream BGs as they would have only been used on the named trains that the WR ran.
There were probably many more carmine and cream BGs as that was standard "Blood and Custard" livery on all regions from 1948 - 1956.
Bob
Another reference I've found states that 'Main line corridor coaches.......' became crimson and cream, and doesn't say that this excluded BGs.
The same reference later says that 'Main line corridor stock and full brakes for principal trains' were to be C+C.
This was for the 1948 initial livery, and doesn't include the regional revisions from 1956 when the WR repainted stock to GWR colours.
I think the Society also did research to ensure that its RTR BGs are correct, as did Colin for Ultima's kits and printed sides.
Martyn
Martyn and Bob
Many thanks. I'll get the secondhand models from Hattons.
regards
Geoff
Crimson & Cream and Chocolate & Cream liveries were carried by pre-BR and Mk1 BG. Choc & Cream more likely on former GWR stock.
Choc + Cream Mk1 BG (first vehicle behide loco) - Bornemouth Belle:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/6084/6051038828_06527e4961_w.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/adHa2E)Merchant Navy Class 4-6-2 No 35030 "Elder Dempster Lines" on the Bournemouth Belle (https://flic.kr/p/adHa2E) by John Evans (https://www.flickr.com/photos/the-evanses/), on Flickr
(https://live.staticflickr.com/819/41340693942_69bc9e9493_w.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/25Z8S2d)The 'Bournemouth Belle' (https://flic.kr/p/25Z8S2d) by Nige's Place (https://www.flickr.com/photos/billsboy/), on Flickr
Crimson & Cream LMS BG:
https://flic.kr/p/2iTbYGp (https://flic.kr/p/2iTbYGp)
BR Mk1 BG in "Royal Scot" train:
https://davidheyscollection.myshopblocks.com/pages/david-heys-steam-diesel-photo-collection-39-br-express-trains (https://davidheyscollection.myshopblocks.com/pages/david-heys-steam-diesel-photo-collection-39-br-express-trains)
Steven B.
Further to my last post, whilst modellers like trains of matching coaches, it's worth remembering that BR often failed to. Miss-matched rakes are perfectly prototypical:
BR(S) green + Pullman umber/cream:
https://flic.kr/p/fSJaGy (https://flic.kr/p/fSJaGy)
Maroon and Pullman umber/cream:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/7108/7734244708_c60e8bbdd1_w.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/cMs2uG)D1921_Vauxhall_BBelle_28-4-67 (https://flic.kr/p/cMs2uG) by robertcwp (https://www.flickr.com/photos/robertcwp/), on Flickr
Blue/Grey, maroon and umber/cream:
https://flic.kr/p/xPGEeN (https://flic.kr/p/xPGEeN)
Steven B
Hello Steven B
Very many thanks for the photos and links. I tend to forget that Flickr is available.
regards
Geoff
In Nobby's model world of four regions the following exist:-
MK1 Blood/Custard BG Full Brake 'W' prefix
MK1 Blood/Custard BG Full Brake 'M' prefix
Mk1 Maroon BG Full Brake 'M' prefix
Mk1 Maroon BG Full Brake 'E' prefix
Mk1 Maroon BG Full Brake 'E' prefix
Mk1 Maroon BG Full Brake 'W' prefix
Hawksworth Full Brake Blood/Custard 'W' prefix
Hawksworth Full Brake BR maroon 'W' prefix
Mk1 Choc/Cream BG Full Brake 'W' prefix
Mk1 Choc/Cream BG Full Brake 'W' prefix
Mk1 Blue/Grey BG Full Brake 'W' prefix
BR MK1 Green BG Full brake 'S' prefix
Thompson Full Brake BR Crimson & Cream 'E' prefix
Thompson Full Brake BR lined maroon 'E' prefix
K41 Collett BG Full Brake 'W' prefix
BR Collett BG Full Brake maroon 'W' prefix
Is that your personal stock list?
Bit rough on the passengers I think.
Standing room only.
Bob
Maybe unlike you I don't have passengers in my BGs :no: :P
Bob Gs BGs are full of Christmas presents 🎁 I think
I just hope my BGs aren't occupied by Bee Gees :worried:
At least 4 BGs parked in my sidings
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/127/3894-151122101907.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=127683)
3 in blue / grey, 1 in all blue Newspapers branding
Quote from: Newportnobby on November 14, 2022, 09:42:10 PM
In Nobby's model world of four regions the following exist:-
Nobby
That's quite a collection - I've got three - the best being the N Gauge Society Thompson. But I have all of my stock on the layout and can probably just fit the two BGs that I want from Hattons.
Regards
I'm a great fan of parcels trains and 'holiday specials' which are likely to carry lots of baggage so one or maybe two in the passenger trains and a bigger variety of vans for parcels :)
In Nobby's model world do you run Brake coaches with the 4-wheel short wheelbase box vans? Steve Banks seems to have a lot of photos with what he calls "Vanfit" running with Brake Coaches. I seem to remember that you had a similar post exchange with Chris Morris a while ago.
On James St we run BGs as part of a passenger train, as the guard's accommodation on parcels, and with 12T vans and other NPCCS such as GUVs, BYs, CCTs, and BZs as parcels trains. Likewise on my home layout.
Dave/southerngooner and I have used photos of the real trains as references for their use. The use of fitted 12T vans as part of parcels trains seems to have been quite common, especially at times of peak demand such as Christmas. I'm not sure if letter mail was carried on such trains (probably not) but general parcel traffic was. I don't know if the parcels were BR's own traffic, contract third party (such as the mail order catalogues of the time) or Royal Mail.
Martyn
Quote from: geofff on November 15, 2022, 06:03:19 PM
In Nobby's model world do you run Brake coaches with the 4-wheel short wheelbase box vans? Steve Banks seems to have a lot of photos with what he calls "Vanfit" running with Brake Coaches. I seem to remember that you had a similar post exchange with Chris Morris a while ago.
My parcels trains will contain BG, CCT PMV, GUV, VanB, Siphons, FruitDs and 12T vans - mostly superbly weathered by MK1GTStu of this parish :)
I'm also waiting for the NGS Ferryvans to be confirmed date wise
Quote from: Newportnobby on November 15, 2022, 07:50:20 PM
I'm also waiting for the NGS Ferryvans to be confirmed date wise
The Ferry vans (VIX) being modelled by the NGS were built between 1962 and 1964. I've never seen a photo of one in parcels use.
BY and BZ had spaces for the guard to sit, so strictly no need for a BG if you have one of these in the train.
BY = four wheel van, e.g. Dapol's Maunsell brake van
BZ = six wheel, e.g. NGS Stove R
There's some lovely period photos of parcels trains on this site:
https://www.steve-banks.org/prototype-and-traffic/167-parcels-traffic-in-br-days (https://www.steve-banks.org/prototype-and-traffic/167-parcels-traffic-in-br-days)
What's interesting is the Mk1 BG was usually outnumbered by vanfit and pre-nationalisation BG.
Steven B.
Another use for BGs was guard's accommodation on fully fitted trains of milk tanks. The BG was not necessarily the last vehicle in the rake. I have at least one, and I think more, photos of this happening. I've put the reference in the 'Milk Tank' threads somewhere on the forum.
In LNER days, at least some ECML fish trains had passenger brake vans for the guard, as the ride was considered too hard in a 4wheel goods brake; I don't know if these were BGs or other passenger brakes. I've only seen this written in a book, no photos, as most of the Fish trains ran overnight and presumably didn't get photographed too often.
Regarding Steven B's post #19; I have photos of stock from all big 4 plus BR in the same train (somewhere!).
Martyn
Quote from: Steven B on November 16, 2022, 09:20:34 AM
Quote from: Newportnobby on November 15, 2022, 07:50:20 PM
I'm also waiting for the NGS Ferryvans to be confirmed date wise
The Ferry vans (VIX) being modelled by the NGS were built between 1962 and 1964. I've never seen a photo of one in parcels use.
I stand corrected, so mine will be used on cross country boat trains and engineers rakes.
That should do it.
Quote from: martyn on November 15, 2022, 06:50:55 PM
On James St we run BGs as part of a passenger train, as the guard's accommodation on parcels, and with 12T vans and other NPCCS such as GUVs, BYs, CCTs, and BZs as parcels trains. Likewise on my home layout.
Dave/southerngooner and I have used photos of the real trains as references for their use. The use of fitted 12T vans as part of parcels trains seems to have been quite common, especially at times of peak demand such as Christmas. I'm not sure if letter mail was carried on such trains (probably not) but general parcel traffic was. I don't know if the parcels were BR's own traffic, contract third party (such as the mail order catalogues of the time) or Royal Mail.
Martyn
Drifting off thread slightly, but a few 12T vans in parcels use can be seen in the background of this shot of mine taken at Paddington in November 1974
(https://live.staticflickr.com/7676/16794306673_a65b9694d0_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/rA4dgB)47264 at Paddington (https://flic.kr/p/rA4dgB) by Bingley Hall (https://www.flickr.com/photos/markcarter/), on Flickr