Have to say I, for one, was gutted when DJ Models went belly up as I had a class 23 on pre order. Some of his models have been snapped up by EFE e.g. Class 28, Mermaids and Sharks but I'm not aware the tooling for the class 23 ever got started so maybe there's nothing there for anyone to take on. I appreciate maybe more modellers would like a class 21/29 but they might get one should Dapol use a shrinkray on theirs. In fact, I can't think of anyone's layout prototypically requiring a class 23 so maybe mine is a lone voice??
I need RTR for physical reasons so no need to suggest alternatives
Likewise, I was also intending to purchase a DJM class 23, maybe 2. In fact I ordered a class 17 from DJM as it appeared at the time that the success of the DJM class 17, would drive the case for developing a Class 23 as the next project.
If a new class 23 appeared I would definitely be interested.
Rob
Quote from: Newportnobby on February 17, 2022, 08:41:03 PM
Have to say I, for one, was gutted when DJ Models went belly up as I had a class 23 on pre order. Some of his models have been snapped up by EFE e.g. Class 28
Was he planning a Class 28? There was the Class 17 which went to EFE, but the only 28 I recall is the one Rapido are doing .
I saw all 10 of the 23s in service, but have no huge desire for one in RTR. Their sphere and span of operation was extremely limited.
My personal dream, which I doubt will ever be fulfilled would be for a 15, but while there were more of them, again their sphere of operation was not much greater than the 23s, and their lifespan much the same as the 23s.
Quote from: railsquid on February 17, 2022, 11:35:28 PM
Quote from: Newportnobby on February 17, 2022, 08:41:03 PM
Have to say I, for one, was gutted when DJ Models went belly up as I had a class 23 on pre order. Some of his models have been snapped up by EFE e.g. Class 28
Was he planning a Class 28? There was the Class 17 which went to EFE, but the only 28 I recall is the one Rapido are doing .
@railsquid (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=3832) :oopssign: Brain fart!! I did, of course, mean the class 17 and, like @robt857 (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=813) would have taken a weathered twin pack off DJM but that offer never came from EFE.
I tried to persuade Rapido to do a twin pack with their class 28 but got the usual reply. Seems only Dapol offer some of their products as dummy versions and that's probably stopped now.
With these guys,
https://www.babydeltic.co.uk/ (https://www.babydeltic.co.uk/)
making some great progress a model will hopefully become more attractive to a manufacturer.
Cheers Colin
Rapido have dropped heavy hints about a 15 coming after the 28.....
Dave
Quote from: Southerngooner on February 18, 2022, 09:04:18 AM
Rapido have dropped heavy hints about a 15 coming after the 28.....
Dave
That would be great as they sneaked onto the southern with trip freights to south London (as did 16s, 20s, 25s, 27s...). All good excuses for variety :)
Bob
And how would you justify a class 23 in Oxfordshire, Mick?
I thought they spent most of their time in store at Stratford he he.
Bob
(proud owner of two class 17s on his Southern layout)
:offtopicsign:@Bob G (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=1517) ;
Typically, I can't find the reference, but I'm pretty sure I've read somewhere that a pair of 15s escaped to Brighton on an excursion, though this seems a bit unlikely as the Southern crew wouldn't 'sign' the class; unless the Stratford crew worked through. If I find the reference, I'll try and remember to post it.
Martyn
Later;
Source; 'British Rail fleet survey' vol 1 by Haresnape;
".....the writer well recalls seeing a pair working through Gatwick Airport......on a seaside special from East London".
Even more excuse for you....
I believe that B1s did similar workings occasionally.
Martyn
Quote from: martyn on February 18, 2022, 11:22:04 AM
I believe that B1s did similar workings occasionally.
Martyn
Thanks. Even more fun double headed.
But the only good use of a B1 chassis (Dapol) is to fit under an S15. One of Ross's @RBTKraisee (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=8374) 's future ideas :)
Bob
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/51/264-280417102845-51439110.gif)
:P :P :P
What is a thread?
Quote from: Shropshire Lad on February 18, 2022, 06:34:27 AM
With these guys,
https://www.babydeltic.co.uk/ (https://www.babydeltic.co.uk/)
making some great progress a model will hopefully become more attractive to a manufacturer.
Cheers Colin
An interesting project which looks to making significant progress. Good luck to them.
On their website they make a number of references to the 'donor loco' which is being modified and re-engined to create the replica Baby Deltic, but so far as I could see they don't say which type of loco the donor actually was. Anybody know? I'm guessing maybe a 37, but I could be talking complete garbage here. (First time for everything, says SWMBO.)
PW
Quote from: PennineWagons on February 18, 2022, 12:00:00 PM
Quote from: Shropshire Lad on February 18, 2022, 06:34:27 AM
With these guys,
https://www.babydeltic.co.uk/ (https://www.babydeltic.co.uk/)
making some great progress a model will hopefully become more attractive to a manufacturer.
Cheers Colin
An interesting project which looks to making significant progress. Good luck to them.
On their website they make a number of references to the 'donor loco' which is being modified and re-engined to create the replica Baby Deltic, but so far as I could see they don't say which type of loco the donor actually was. Anybody know? I'm guessing maybe a 37
You appear to be correct:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48463136257_24e9c2d405_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2gQweYM)
IMG_6841 Baby Deltic Project D5910 Barrow Hill 13.7.19_1 (https://flic.kr/p/2gQweYM) by Brians Railway, Bus and Shipping Collection (https://www.flickr.com/photos/43494843@N00/), on FlickrDescription: "
ex 37372. Donor locomotive used in the construction of Baby Deltic D5910"
Why they don't just put a pair of Class 55s in a darkened shed with romantic music and let them get on with it, beats me... :beers:
Quote from: PennineWagons on February 18, 2022, 12:00:00 PM
On their website they make a number of references to the 'donor loco' which is being modified and re-engined to create the replica Baby Deltic, but so far as I could see they don't say which type of loco the donor actually was. Anybody know? I'm guessing maybe a 37
The Baby Deltic Project are using an original class 23 Deltic engine, combined with parts from a class 37 and bogies from a class 20. All three classes were originally built by English Electric so the class 20 and 37 make good starting points as part donors.
Steven B.
I had 2 Baby Deltics on order from DJ and would jump at the chance to get them from a new manufacturer. Their (comparatively) small sphere of operation hasn't prevented Heljan from producing an OO version. I might even go for 3 (including a blue D5909.......)
I wasn't aware of this thread until @Bob G (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=1517) pulled me in, but if there's demand for a model I'm always interested in identifying possible future projects. So, if you're reading this and want one, please do say here on the thread.
What RTR chassis do you think would make for a good donor for this?
Cheers,
Ross.
Quote from: Steven B on February 18, 2022, 12:19:43 PM
Quote from: PennineWagons on February 18, 2022, 12:00:00 PM
On their website they make a number of references to the 'donor loco' which is being modified and re-engined to create the replica Baby Deltic, but so far as I could see they don't say which type of loco the donor actually was. Anybody know? I'm guessing maybe a 37
The Baby Deltic Project are using an original class 23 Deltic engine, combined with parts from a class 37 and bogies from a class 20. All three classes were originally built by English Electric so the class 20 and 37 make good starting points as part donors.
Steven B.
Once they've finished the project and it's up and around on railways in the UK I can see there being a boost in demand for a Baby Deltic model.
I'd need a RTR version i.e. fully painted, decalled etc @RBTKraisee (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=8374) as opposed to a self build.
There is a basic body on Shapeways but I'm not sure what chassis it needs
The old resin models used Farish Class 25 chassis, but as I'm not at all interested in this loco, I've not checked the wheel centres etc.
Bob
Actually, to answer the thread title - "Class 23 Baby Deltic - did it even get off the ground?" - the answer is only with a tail wind and if the secondman flapped his arms out of the window, and only then for a few seconds.
Quote from: Newportnobby on February 18, 2022, 04:12:11 PM
I'd need a RTR version i.e. fully painted, decalled etc @RBTKraisee (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=8374) as opposed to a self build.
There is a basic body on Shapeways but I'm not sure what chassis it needs
Mick, the other option is to let Ross work his magic, get it assembled then pass it to Ozymandias for his deft touch. Granted it would take a while, as I know how long Gideon's work list is, but you'd get RTR quality at similar to RTR price.
Regarding potential donor chassis for a Baby Deltic, I don't know the bogie wheel spacing, but the main wheelbase figures suggest a Class 33 might be closer than a Class 25...
Wheelbase:
Class 23 - 40ft 6in
Class 25 - 36ft 6in - 48in too short
Class 33 - 39ft 0in - 18in too short
Shame there aren't any Class 82/83/84 chassis out there...
Class 82 - 40ft 9in - 3in too long
Class 83 - 40ft 0in - 6in too short
Class 84 - 39ft 6in - 12in too short
Ross.
Quote from: RBTKraisee on February 19, 2022, 12:14:52 AM
Regarding potential donor chassis for a Baby Deltic, I don't know the bogie wheel spacing, but the main wheelbase figures suggest a Class 33 might be closer than a Class 25...
The old Poole Farish 25 and 33 shared the same chassis, so if I had said 33....I would have been closer but the Poole 33 bogies were sooooo wrong. Looks like it could be a Dapol donor again.
Is the Dapol 26/27 chassis the same as the 33 chassis? And what about the 35? I've used the 35 on class 71/74.
Bob
What a finicky lot. As long as the chassis runs sweetly I'm OK with an old 25 or 33 underneath it as I'm of the opinion "if it looks like a Baby Deltic - it is a Baby Deltic" :P
You have not dealt with Ross and his *love* of Dapol yet, have you :)
Yup, you're dealing with a guy who's prepared to send out spare 3D printed rivets in case you accidentally file one off of his printed wagons.
:goggleeyes:
What about a class 73? It has 40' 9"?
Quote from: railsquid on February 18, 2022, 05:19:09 PM
Actually, to answer the thread title - "Class 23 Baby Deltic - did it even get off the ground?" - the answer is only with a tail wind and if the secondman flapped his arms out of the window, and only then for a few seconds.
If it had been parked anywhere round here yesterday it would have got off the ground all right.
PW
how about just buying a mainline livery class 37. much easier.
https://youtu.be/Z_Kh0o3sPoY
Quote from: Dalteth on February 19, 2022, 12:21:15 PM
What about a class 73? It has 40' 9"?
A loooooong time ago I scratched a 73 and a 23 on the same (Bachmann US) chassis. I think the wheelbase is 80.5mm.
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/119/8908-190222195859.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=119790)
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/119/8908-190222195950.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=119791)
Quote from: Bob G on February 19, 2022, 07:35:10 AM
Quote from: RBTKraisee on February 19, 2022, 12:14:52 AM
Regarding potential donor chassis for a Baby Deltic, I don't know the bogie wheel spacing, but the main wheelbase figures suggest a Class 33 might be closer than a Class 25...
The old Poole Farish 25 and 33 shared the same chassis, so if I had said 33....I would have been closer but the Poole 33 bogies were sooooo wrong. Looks like it could be a Dapol donor again.
Is the Dapol 26/27 chassis the same as the 33 chassis? And what about the 35? I've used the 35 on class 71/74.
Bob
Many years ago, I bought a Sliver Fox Models Class 23 "Baby Deltic" kit (disc headcode version).
The kit was made of resin and the instructions state that the body fits either a Graham Farish Class 25 or Class 33 chassis. As @Bob G (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=1517) said above, the chassis for the Class 25 and 33 are the same. When I held a GF Class 25 chassis up against a Class 33, the wheelbase was identical.
I never bothered to fit the replacement resin underframe tank or the Class 23 bogie sideframes.
The photo shows this model mounted on a Grafar (made in China) Class 33 chassis.
Ian
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/119/3276-200222230054.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=119845)
If the Poole era Class 25 and 33 used the same chassis, then at least one of them was incorrect dimensions.
@Bob G (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=1517) thinks I have some kind of fetish for Dapol, which really isn't the case, in fact I would say my Farish A1 Tornado is probably the pride of my current fleet! However as I already have a Dapol Class 33 here, I would be strongly tempted to use it as the basis for a Class 23 - unless others prefer I stick to Farish chassis' because they already have donors waiting on their shelves?
Who here would like me to add a Class 23 to my list of future projects? And who wants a Farish chassis option and/or a Dapol one? If I could get at least 5 customers lined up it would be worth pursuing.
Ross.
Ross
The old Poole Farish 33 bogies looked nothing like the Dapol ones. I suspect that the bogies were closer to the 25, but still not quite right. Best to look at real bogie spacing and model bogie spacings to see what would be the better chassis. I suspect it *might* be a new Dapol 33 (what about a Dapol 26/27?) but I'm not so sure.
Long may the affair with Dapol continue :) It's not a fetish :no: . It's far more extreme than that :worried:
Bob
Rue d'Etropal does both body versions on his Shapeways page.
No connection to him, just thought I'd mention it.
Martyn
Quote from: RBTKraisee on February 21, 2022, 08:08:33 PM
If the Poole era Class 25 and 33 used the same chassis, then at least one of them was incorrect dimensions.
@Bob G (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=1517) thinks I have some kind of fetish for Dapol, which really isn't the case, in fact I would say my Farish A1 Tornado is probably the pride of my current fleet! However as I already have a Dapol Class 33 here, I would be strongly tempted to use it as the basis for a Class 23 - unless others prefer I stick to Farish chassis' because they already have donors waiting on their shelves?
Who here would like me to add a Class 23 to my list of future projects? And who wants a Farish chassis option and/or a Dapol one? If I could get at least 5 customers lined up it would be worth pursuing.
Ross.
Assuming the facts I have are correct and the model is accurate, the Class 73 might be closer than either 33 or 25 in terms of both bogie centres. There would however be a compromise of 3" on the wheel centres.
This is a link I found a while ago that I've found useful:
http://www.clag.org.uk/wheelbase.html] [url]http://www.clag.org.uk/wheelbase.html (http://[url)[/url]
Just to throw more options into the mix :)
I'd rather have a reliable chassis. The current 73 is lightweight and plastic. Combined with a printed body doesn't make it a good result.
The nose ends also makes it a difficult shape to fit without surgery so the lighting circuits will have to be reassessed too.
I'd put my money on a 26/27/33 from Dapol or a 24/25 from Farish first.
Oh and has anyone considered the hymek?
Bob
@Bob G (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=1517) (or anyone) do you have a Class 73 you could pop open and show the internals?
Weights can be moved around, replaced or even added to improve running. As can all the lighting bits and any cab detailing parts too.
New carriers can be designed into a new bodyshell to support correct placement for all sorts of internal workings.
The main issue is whether the plastic and metal motor parts of the Class 73 chassis itself protrude into areas that the lower 'snouts' on the Class 23 bodyshell would cut into.
Even the plastic parts of the chassis could be replaced if necessary, although that's more work and would somewhat affect the cost. I'm already taking this approach with the Tomytec TM-18 chassis that I'm using to power my APT-P - the majority of the Tomytec's plastic chassis parts are being replaced and all I'm really retaining untouched are the electrical and mechanical components.
Ross.
Quote from: martyn on February 21, 2022, 08:26:21 PM
Rue d'Etropal does both body versions on his Shapeways page.
No connection to him, just thought I'd mention it.
Martyn
What chassis are those are designed to fit?
Ross.
Quote from: RBTKraisee on February 21, 2022, 11:08:36 PM
@Bob G (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=1517) (or anyone) do you have a Class 73 you could pop open and show the internals?
Weights can be moved around, replaced or even added to improve running. As can all the lighting bits and any cab detailing parts too.
New carriers can be designed into a new bodyshell to support correct placement for all sorts of internal workings.
The main issue is whether the plastic and metal motor parts of the Class 73 chassis itself protrude into areas that the lower 'snouts' on the Class 23 bodyshell would cut into.
Even the plastic parts of the chassis could be replaced if necessary, although that's more work and would somewhat affect the cost. I'm already taking this approach with the Tomytec TM-18 chassis that I'm using to power my APT-P - the majority of the Tomytec's plastic chassis parts are being replaced and all I'm really retaining untouched are the electrical and mechanical components.
Ross.
Hi Ross
I will photograph and measure up a 24, 25, 27, 33, 35 and 73 when I have a moment. I also have an old 25 I can throw in the mix.
I'll do a table like you did for the steam era.
There will be a delay but that will be due to my mum. She went into hospital on Saturday after collapsing and we have not been able to see her yet. She 94 with Alzheimer's and doesn't know what is going on, so that makes two of us right now.
They were planning loads of tests but when they found out she was in a care home and had a DNR/end of life form they decided they would stop doing the tests.
But they said we couldn't visit until she was stable, admitted, and her condition assessed. She's been in 3 different wards already and wasn't officially admitted until Monday, when a Doctor saw her. Two days after going to hospital.
Being only next of kin and having full power of attorney makes no odds. We've had no access to hospital, as she wasn't allocated a bed until yesterday, and if she is sent home we have no access to care home as they had a Covid outbreak and have banned visits.
Moral of the story is "Don't get sick and get admitted to a hospital at a weekend".
Bob
@RBTKraisee (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=8374)
Quote from: RBTKraisee on February 21, 2022, 11:10:59 PM
Quote from: martyn on February 21, 2022, 08:26:21 PM
Rue d'Etropal does both body versions on his Shapeways page.
No connection to him, just thought I'd mention it.
Martyn
What chassis are those are designed to fit?
Ross.
I'm not sure of his design considerations, and I've never bought one.
From comments elsewhere on the is forum, it would seem that he designs a close to scale body and it's up to the modeller to find a chassis. AFAIK, there are no recommendations for chassis on his website for any of his locomotives.
Martyn
Another here that had signed up for a couple from DJM, hopefully sombody does a RTR one day, also a 15, Falcon etc etc... AND THE TWINS !!!!!
If Rue d'Etropal has a model already, I won't get in his way.
I don't mean to pull the thread off topic but "the twins"??
Ross.
LMS diesels 10000 and 10001, designed by Ivatt.
Quote from: Bealman on February 24, 2022, 06:08:33 AM
LMS diesels 10000 and 10001, designed by Ivatt.
Don't tell @RBTKraisee (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=8374) that! I was going to save that one for a month or two.
I was hoping to steer him to the LMS Beyer Garrett first!
:smackedface:
See.........
https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=50895.msg750711#msg750711 (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=50895.msg750711#msg750711)
Thanks for the info. Before there is any further silliness (!) I'll return you to your original programming...
Ross.