I'm glad I bought some mk2A coaches the first time around. Rrp for the recently announced mk2a brake compo is £49.95!
Ok that is blue and grey which costs more than maroon and it is weathered but even so that's a heavy price. Also I would rather weather them myself because the Farish weathering on coaches never looks like any coaches I have seen in service.
See https://www.modelrailwaysdirect.co.uk/rolling-stock-passenger-n/graham-farish-374-680b-br-mk2a-bso-brake-second-open-br-blue-grey-weathered/ (https://www.modelrailwaysdirect.co.uk/rolling-stock-passenger-n/graham-farish-374-680b-br-mk2a-bso-brake-second-open-br-blue-grey-weathered/)
The weathering on that looks unusually acceptable for Farish weathering, but it'll still mean people having a pristine train with a weathered BSO, which will look stupid.
As ever I can't get worked up about prices. Don't like. Don't buy.
I'm selling more than buying these days.
They are there to make profit. If their products continue to sell the prices won't come down. If they don't, prices may reduce or they may decide to get out of the market.
I guess ebay doesn't help here when second hand examples sell for more than new.
Have you seen what Bachmann are asking for a OO Mk1 these days, £79.99.
Just glad I have all the stock I need (that's need not want) ;) and feel sorry for anyone thinking of starting in this already expensive hobby.
NGM
Quote from: N_GaugeModeller on July 03, 2021, 08:42:12 AM
Have you seen what Bachmann are asking for a OO Mk1 these days, £79.99.
Just glad I have all the stock I need (that's need not want) ;) and feel sorry for anyone thinking of starting in this already expensive hobby.
NGM
The great thing and also the worst thing about N gauge is that you can portray main line trains more accurately. Whereas in my bad old days of 00 a five coach train had to represent an express in N I have a ten coach train. This N works out more expensive than 00 for a given space.
I exceeded what I need many, many years ago so anything now is what I want so I'm operating on the truism..............
Quote from: njee20 on July 03, 2021, 08:20:48 AM
Don't like. Don't buy.
However, there will come a limit beyond which I'm not prepared to go. I think Farish need to look around around at what others are producing and their prices e.g. RevolutioN, Sonic and Dapol
I have to admit I am also glad I have more than enough locos and stock for my needs, but conversely would say that the price is what it is.
Those Mk2a's do look particularly pricey though, considerably more than the Thompsons released around the same time, and as I understand it, unlike the Thompsons do not even have close-coupling mechanisms...
My most recent rake of coaches, said Chocolate and Cream Thompsons started with a purchase of five (I already had a B&C BG thanks to the NGS) I have since added three more by searching them out at (comparative) bargain prices to complete my rake which spread the cost.
N Gauge has never been a cheap hobby, it is simply that for a few short years in the not too distant past prices were very keen for amazing models (miles away from the Farish models pre-Bachmann takeover) and we got used to that, but reality has now hit, models of the quality of say the Thompsons comes at a cost. Manufacturers have to make a profit as does the whole supply chain from there to retailer and at least Bachmann tries to protect local shops by not retailing directly unlike others.
Nobody is entitled to be able to afford things (I would like a Tesla but can't) it is really just a case of making our modelling budgets stretch by (e.g.) availing ourselves of things like the bargain NGS kits and RTR commissions, plus (e.g.) the cheaper (if more generic) Peco offerings.
Roy
Quote from: Newportnobby on July 03, 2021, 09:15:51 AM
I exceeded what I need many, many years ago so anything now is what I want so I'm operating on the truism..............
Quote from: njee20 on July 03, 2021, 08:20:48 AM
Don't like. Don't buy.
However, there will come a limit beyond which I'm not prepared to go. I think Farish need to look around around at what others are producing and their prices e.g. RevolutioN, Sonic and Dapol
Mick, you are quite correct. The will be though that yes, other manufacturers products may be cheaper, but they won't touch products already manufactured by Farish.
Quote from: Newportnobby on July 03, 2021, 09:15:51 AM
I exceeded what I need many, many years ago so anything now is what I want so I'm operating on the truism..............
Quote from: njee20 on July 03, 2021, 08:20:48 AM
Don't like. Don't buy.
However, there will come a limit beyond which I'm not prepared to go. I think Farish need to look around around at what others are producing and their prices e.g. RevolutioN, Sonic and Dapol
Hi Mick
I don't think RevolutioN is a fair comparison, their business model and proposition is quite different, comparing the prices of their models that DO get to shops and sold through retai channels is very different. For example the difference between the early bird price for a Sonic 56xx (I paid £81.50) and the retail price at Rails of £109.95 - the BachFarish Jinty at a RRP of £99.95 stands up fairly well against that.
Dapol - reliance mostly on re-treads from existing tooling and compromises that reduce cost - e.g. new M7 Chassis with no DCC socket or even DCC solder pads. Notice that the 9F has been mistakenly referred to as a brand new model in some magazines whereas the tooling originates from about 2007! It is far from state of the art and absolutely no comparison to the Farish 8F which truly is and exquisitely modelled plus coming with features like Plug & Play sound. Price differential 9F about £116 discounted, 8F about £145, I think the extra £30 is easily justified.
Regards
Roy
Quote from: Newportnobby on July 03, 2021, 09:15:51 AM
I exceeded what I need many, many years ago so anything now is what I want so I'm operating on the truism..............
Quote from: njee20 on July 03, 2021, 08:20:48 AM
Don't like. Don't buy.
However, there will come a limit beyond which I'm not prepared to go. I think Farish need to look around around at what others are producing and their prices e.g. RevolutioN, Sonic and Dapol
I agree. Rarely do I buy RTR these days as for me much of it has become just OTT price wise.
I started making my own carriages from brass etches around the time the NGS shop was having a massive clear out. I could envisage Farish nudging towards the £50 carriage, based on how each new introductions would involve a noticeable price jump on the previous carriage introduction.
At the end of the NGS shop sale I bought 8 or so sets of LMS/B.R. Porthole sides. I have never looked back and have learnt SO much about carriages. Making them gives you a real feel for their purpose within the train.
In total I have probably made around 30 carriages so far. With several sets of etches in the "to do" drawer there is currently no end to building in sight! I have built enough carriages to form a Royal Scot train behind a Duchess, and currently making sleepers for the Night Scot. Looking at an 8-10 carriage train where you have personally made all the carriages is very gratifying.
As I have said previously, however expensive RTR becomes there will always be people who are willing and can pay the asking price. What may come out of the ever increasing prices from Farish is that more people try their hands at making their own, whatever it be. This is where the NGS wagon kits come into their own. Perhaps they should consider producing some carriage kits?
As you have said Newportnobby, Farish would do well to look at what others are offering their products at. They will wish for volume sales but may end up scoring an own goal with their ongoing price increases.
"Sorry but here we go again".
Summed up in the title, why are we starting this pointless debate yet again? It is a hobby, no one is forced to buy anything but if it is an item you want please remember you are part of a very niche hobby and should consider yourself lucky that a company is prepared to invest in a product you want and is looking to make a profit on small runs so they can invest in future projects.
Sure, different manufacturers have varying RRP's but they work form different business models so you can't accurately compare. I reckon by now Bachmann are astute enough to know how much people are prepared to pay and price accordingly.
To put it into context I need petrol to be able to work. 12 months ago petrol around here cost 107p/litre, it is now 131p/litre. That is a far greater percentage increase for a product available from many manufacturers in a saturated market not a very small hobby to a finite number of people.
I need petrol, I don't need a coach or loco. First world problems!
Quote from: Newportnobby on July 03, 2021, 09:15:51 AM
I exceeded what I need many, many years ago so anything now is what I want so I'm operating on the truism..............
Quote from: njee20 on July 03, 2021, 08:20:48 AM
Don't like. Don't buy.
However, there will come a limit beyond which I'm not prepared to go. I think Farish need to look around around at what others are producing and their prices e.g. RevolutioN, Sonic and Dapol
Furthermore look at more recent Revolution releases - mk5 coaches are £45 each (pre-order, they'll be more in the shops), so more then the Farish mk2s. The 92s sold at £175 each, which puts them beyond the price of anything Farish have sold. I'm a huge fan of Revolution products, and the re-run of Pendolinos is well priced, but IMO they're in exactly the same ballpark as the other manufacturers on price.
Hi Roy,
I apologise for using a 'David and Goliath' comparison (I'm quite sure no one wants to bring down the competition) but BachFar are, in comparison, a behemoth with all the overheads that comes with being such and maybe they look upon others as an annoyance but the fact is, across the board (locos, rolling stock etc) very comparable stuff is being produced with more regard to the customer base, and I'm not just referring to product there.
Why should a BachFar coach or wagon be almost double the price of a Dapol one? They're all made in China and are generally of equal quality, to my mind.
Agreed, BachFar do still bring new models to market unlike Dapol's current policy, but so do RevolutioN, Sonic, Accurascale and, just lately, Kato and Rapido.
Time will tell if BachFar price themselves out of the market and I hope they don't, but disposable income has limits and does not increase at the same rate as their prices either. I have to purchase RTR as I am physically not capable of building kits.
Dapol are a small company with a handful of employees in a building in rural Wales. Bachmann are a global company with premises in multiple continents, their own factories etc. Dapol do appear to have weathered the price rises rather better; notably they keep prices down on re-runs (as Revolution have done on the Pendolino), rather than keeping parity with new products, which is how Bachmann seem to operate. They have set a benchmark with the mk2F, so now they've re-priced the 2A to align.
New Dapol products appear to be going up markedly though, they've just done far more re-releases in the last couple of years.
Phew, I was getting worried that we hadn't had a thread like this for a couple of months.
As you were!
Quote from: Newportnobby on July 03, 2021, 10:12:32 AM
Why should a BachFar coach or wagon be almost double the price of a Dapol one? They're all made in China and are generally of equal quality, to my mind.
Simple, they operate to a different business model and market a coach at a price they believe it will sell at. They haven't gone bust so I guess they must know what they are doing and are able to invest in new models more regularly than others which you have actually alluded to below but you have included other manufacturers that aren't markedly cheaper.
Quote from: Newportnobby on July 03, 2021, 10:12:32 AM
Agreed, BachFar do still bring new models to market unlike Dapol's current policy, but so do RevolutioN, Sonic, Accurascale and, just lately, Kato and Rapido.
Quote from: Newportnobby on July 03, 2021, 10:12:32 AM
Time will tell if BachFar price themselves out of the market and I hope they don't, but disposable income has limits and does not increase at the same rate as their prices either. I have to purchase RTR as I am physically not capable of building kits.
They've been around a lot longer than most of their competition. Disposable income does have limits but as I posted earlier petrol prices have increased massively and I don't have a choice over buying that. I also can't support the argument that RTR should be cheaper just because you are not capable of building kits. Why is that the manufacturers problem? As it is building a kit up to RTR standards can easily work out as much is not more!
This is the end of my involvement in this pointless debate which will no doubt start again in a couple of months where people start complaining again that they don't want to spend £50 on a coach from a niche market whilst half the world is starving and living in poverty. People need to get a grip.!
We've done this numerous times and nothing has changed.
Tooling and decoration/assembly costs continue to rise. Comparing new tooled coaches with those from 10+ years ago is apples and pears.
We have much more choice than ever before but at a certain point there is a risk that more niche items will mean lower expected sales which means higher prices ie if you want that LNWR 12 wheel coach then chances are it will be a higher price than a Mk1. Sales volume has a big impact on price - one of the simplest ways to reduce prices would be to reduce choice and only offer a few very popular models but that would be a very negative impact!
For balance I don't think that our prices are lower than new tool Farish or Dapol and anything newly tooled is largely costing the same (as they come out of the same or similar factories).
As others have said, modelling has never been a particularly cheap hobby and models are absolutely not necessary items (though they give all of us a lot of enjoyment).
Quote from: railsquid on July 03, 2021, 10:20:19 AM
Phew, I was getting worried that we hadn't had a thread like this for a couple of months.
As you were!
I feel every new announcement thread should be accompanied by the moaners echo chamber! In fact, can't we just have that for people to go and repeat themselves?!
Quote from: Newportnobby on July 03, 2021, 10:12:32 AM
Why should a BachFar coach or wagon be almost double the price of a Dapol one? They're all made in China and are generally of equal quality, to my mind.
I think Farish's models are more detailed, and crisper than what Dapol produce (both are better than what came out of Farish and Peco's factories in the 1980/90s though).
Dapol's current range of coaches and wagons appear to be stuck in the early 2000 when Dapol released their first N Gauge models. Compare a Dapol Collett coach to a Farish Hawksworth. I think the Hawksworth is the better model - the detail on the underframe is finer and the glazing is better. With more bits to fit, the Farish model ends up more expensive (although that still doesn't explain the high price of something like the class 170!).
It's interesting to compare Kato's products to those coming from Farish or Dapol. Batch size will have an impact but most of the Kato models I've seen are designed to be clipped together - no glue, screws or soldering required which will significantly reduce the amount of labour needed to fit the component parts together. This will reduce the end price accordingly. However, compare the Kato class 800 to the prototype and you'll find some missing details (e.g. at the coach ends).
As for Farish's weathering - their latest efforts on the Mk1 TSO are actually surprisingly good for a mass market model - certainly better than Dapol's weathered wagons! I'd happily buy a weathered Mk2a based on the Mk1 equivalent.
Steven B.
Quote from: Roy L S on July 03, 2021, 09:17:33 AM
Those Mk2a's do look particularly pricey though, considerably more than the Thompsons released around the same time, and as I understand it, unlike the Thompsons do not even have close-coupling mechanisms...
Technical correction here:
The Mk2a suite from Farish do have close couplers. It's the more recent tooled Mk2f range that don't.
HTH,
Alan
I have nothing against these topic threads, there are new people on the forum all the time and these discussions will rear their heads from time to time as they are relevant.
Maybe those that don't like the repeated discussions and are just negative about the 'same old story' should think about the fact that they are posting along the same lines... If you don't like the topic don't interact... if you don't like the price don't buy...
I am thankful I didn't go O gauge as £2,000+ for a great steam loco and several hundred for a coach makes N look pretty good value... ;)
At the end of the day companies have to make money or they wouldn't be in the business, we should be grateful that there are quite so many producers as there are in N gauge as it is not exactly a huge market in the UK compared to the O'rrible gauge...
Don't mention Farish prices. It's a taboo subject around here 🤫
I'm afraid model railway prices are going through the roof in most areas. European N gauge locos now RRP at at least £130 or so each now
Quote from: Flange Squeal on July 03, 2021, 12:20:44 PM
Don't mention Farish prices. It's a taboo subject around here 🤫
No it isn't otherwise we wouldn't be having this discussion (again and again).
It isn't restricted to Farish either - Dapol's recent 50 or 68 and Farish's 31 or 40 were pretty similar in prices.
Let's face it this is all predicated on people's personal circumstances.
When I started work in 1984 I couldn't afford to spend 20 quid on a model. These days I can happily spend £200 on a sound equipped loco because as a percentage of my take home pay it's less that that £20 model from 1984.
I also don't have 3 kids to pay for anymore, and these days we both work and SWMBO earns more than me.
So from my perspective this hobby was too expensive for me in the 80's and 90's, and has gradually become more affordable.
This isn't meant to be a gloat, it's just the realities of life. We've all probably gone through similar experiences, but when you were born is probably as much a factor in Farish's pricing being too high as the actual prices themselves.
Regards,
John P
Quote from: trkilliman on July 03, 2021, 09:58:53 AM
What may come out of the ever increasing prices from Farish is that more people try their hands at making their own, whatever it be. This is where the NGS wagon kits come into their own. Perhaps they should consider producing some carriage kits?
Quote from: Newportnobby on July 03, 2021, 10:12:32 AM
I have to purchase RTR as I am physically not capable of building kits.
Quote from: thebrighton on July 03, 2021, 10:25:24 AM
I also can't support the argument that RTR should be cheaper just because you are not capable of building kits. Why is that the manufacturers problem?
This is the end of my involvement in this pointless debate
My comment was added purely as a reply to the comment above it. I AM NOT CAPABLE!
However, you probably won't read this
Quote from: Newportnobby on July 03, 2021, 04:59:36 PM
Quote from: trkilliman on July 03, 2021, 09:58:53 AM
What may come out of the ever increasing prices from Farish is that more people try their hands at making their own, whatever it be. This is where the NGS wagon kits come into their own. Perhaps they should consider producing some carriage kits?
Quote from: Newportnobby on July 03, 2021, 10:12:32 AM
I have to purchase RTR as I am physically not capable of building kits.
Quote from: thebrighton on July 03, 2021, 10:25:24 AM
I also can't support the argument that RTR should be cheaper just because you are not capable of building kits. Why is that the manufacturers problem?
This is the end of my involvement in this pointless debate
My comment was added purely as a reply to the comment above it. I AM NOT CAPABLE!
However, you probably won't read this
OK, you've dragged me back in to it.
First up you don't
have to buy RTR, models are a luxury not a necessity; if you think they are priced too high don't buy them, if enough follow suit prices will either fall or Bachman will go bust.
Finally, and this will be my last comment, shouting in a post and sarcasm is hardly the actions you would expect from a moderator!
i have to laugh at the idea of paying 45 quid for a coach...i think long and hard before paying that for a running loco!.
My issue is less with price and more with the short production runs that mean I feel I have to buy something as soon as it is released onto the market for fear of having to wait years for the next batch to be produced, if at all.
This is probably a bit of a simplistic comment on my behalf (a reflection of my mentality), but if I want a model badly enough, I'll pay for it.
The fact that it was expensive makes me appreciate it more, while at the same time look after it more.
I've read all the comments on this thread and there are some interesting points being made, but I think the best one is this one
Quote from: willike1958 on July 03, 2021, 08:09:17 PM
My issue is less with price and more with the short production runs that mean I feel I have to buy something as soon as it is released onto the market for fear of having to wait years for the next batch to be produced, if at all.
This is my thought as well, however the price also has to be considered, let's take the MK2's as an example, if I look in my stock boxes I have approx 20 Farish MK2's, picked up over many years, not all new admittedly but picked up for reasonable prices in the £10 -£15 mark, now if I was to replace those MK2's, which I'd love to do, it's going to cost me in the region of £1000 and I would have to do them in pretty much one go due to the Batch/Short production run.
I could try and replace only half as many and sell off 20 to replace with 10, but that cuts the number of rakes I can supply to our Club Layout from 2 or 3 to 1.
Now if Bachmann were to produce MK2's over 2 or 3 years then I could probably replace most if not all of them over time at 1 or 2 a month, the other problem with Batch Production for the Consumer is that 2nd Hand prices for stuff goes through the roof as well, and some people buying more than they need and then flogging off the extras at inflated prices to make a quick buck or 2, those people do annoy me. :veryangry: :veryangry:
Oh and trying to compare Bachmann with Revolution is a bit silly as the Businesses are run completely different.
Just my thoughts.
Cheers
Neal.
It was nice when items stayed in stock for years but that was a different world. Holding stock is not good for business. It has to be stored somewhere and storage space costs money. Also boxes can get damaged while in storage which reduces the value of the items. More importantly holding stock means having cash tied up doing nothing. Far better from a business point of view to have almost no stock as this means you have more cash for investment in new product. The principal of small batches of production followed by a fallow period for each model is almost certainly with is for ever. It's not convenient for us modellers but it does mean there is more cash to invest in new projects.
We have to accept where we are and if you see something you want you need to buy it because it may not be there next month. This is not always possible of course and it's worth having a "war chest" saved up ready for when the next must have comes along.
It seems to me that Farish coache prices have gone up at a higher rate than their diesel loco prices. I guess that in manufacturing terms a diesel loco is not much more than a coach with a motor and a few other electronic bits so maybe their coaches weren't making much of a margin compared to their locos.
I just picked up a couple of mk1s from TMC at what is now a bargain price of £32.21!
TL;DR the newer Farish models are exquisite
I've always been sceptical about the small production runs and felt that it was mainly aimed at keeping demand high with the side benefit of lower stock management & storage costs. Having just progressed to my second layout which is much larger than the first I've sighed over the impending costs of stock - I'll need 18 more coaches and have space for another 10 locos.
However I have just taken delivery of one of the latest batch of BR Late crest N Class locos. I paid a little extra for the weathered version bringing the total to £145 plus postage.
Opening the box and gently removing it for inspection I feel it was worth every single penny. Superb detailing, no unnaturally shiny bits and it even has a speaker fitted if I ever go DCC. Beautiful.
I can happily wait and accumulate my stock gradually if it means the models I receive are this detailed. Most of my coaches are older models bought second hand and the difference between them and my newer versions are noticeable enough for me to accept the prices. It's the lack of availability that will cause me issues but at the end of the day what can we do besides accept the status quo?
Just my 2p.
QuoteIt was nice when items stayed in stock for years but that was a different world.
Indeed it was, and your are right, we won't be going back there any time soon. However, there could be more regular production runs and some transparency and commitment over their timing. And as much as I appreciate the incredible increase in quality that present day Farish models represent, I feel that Bachmann take their UK customers very much for granted. I also think that Bachmann could be a little more innovative when it comes to dealing with the implications of increased labour costs in China. What I mean by that is some of the more intricate Farish wagon details could be provided in the "bag of bits" to cap production costs. I'm thinking here specifically of the Presflos and Sealions that apparently require quite some hands-on attention during production. To be clear, these comments are meant to be constructive and I have nothing but praise for the quality of the products and also the speed in which the Farish people in the UK react to my requests for spares. But as THE main player in the market, there is a tendency for Bachmann to sit comfortably on their incumbent's advantage...
Regarding batch production; if it was that one batch would be produced and that was it, I could understand the complaints. But at least in the case of Farish & Dapol we do get regular re-runs (bizarrely accompanied by complaints that "they're 'milking' us with re-runs and not doing anything new") with the added benefit that when they do re-run they usually have a different running number helping those modellers who want a varied fleet but don't have the confidence to re-number for themselves...
It also means we do get more variations on a type - In Poole days Farish did 3 variations of a Mk1 coach - Brake 3rd, Corridor Composite, Buffet. We have had at least a dozen variations of the Blue Riband Mk1s enabling a representative rake to be assembled...
I'm rich! Well I would be if I sold this lot.
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/111/3123-050721205707.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=111409)
Quote from: PLD on July 05, 2021, 08:19:27 PM
It also means we do get more variations on a type - In Poole days Farish did 3 variations of a Mk1 coach - Brake 3rd, Corridor Composite, Buffet. We have had at least a dozen variations of the Blue Riband Mk1s enabling a representative rake to be assembled...
Except that it doesn't, because everything is made in small batches. So you get a thousand Mk1 RFOs and a thousand SKs. Which isn't much help if you are trying to put together a ten coach train and all that anyone has for sale is RFOs because the SKs (which on the real railway outnumbered RFOs about a thousand to one) sold out months ago. This is not just a theoretical problem: a few months ago I was trying to assemble a Blue Riband Mk1 formation for Stobs to replace my motley collection of Poole stock, and I had to use a BG because no-one anywhere had any maroon brake ends. No BSKs, no BCKs. I just had a look round online and the situation hasn't changed. Plenty of RUs, FOs and sleepers though.
I understand the economic logic behind small batch runs and their appeal to the collector market, which is probably much bigger than that represented by people like me and Chris, but for operators trying to run scale length trains small batches are a thorough nuisance. I end up buying stuff that I don't need yet, just because I know that when I need it in future I won't be able to get it. Arguably there are some basic items of stock which ought to be pretty much a permanent fixture in the range. For much of the last couple of years Farish 16 ton mineral wagons have been as rare as unicorns. BR built a quarter of a million of them. Is the demand for models really so limited that Farish don't dare make more than a tiny number every two or three years?
Richard
They're not dropping batches every few months, so of course the situation hasn't changed. The point is fair - there have been a huge number of variations of coach to create full formations with different running numbers.
You can't walk into a shop and buy them all in one go, no, it becomes piecemeal as they release them, but the point is still valid.
The ratios is stupid though - I struggle to believe they genuinely are so inflexible they make identical numbers regardless of the models. Even if that were the case surely you'd make double the number of SOs to anything else.
Can we just kill this thread? It appears from time to time and achieves nothing. What happens in the marketplace happens. If people do not like it they have an option under their direct control.
No need to keep going over the same old arguments.
:veryangry: :veryangry: :veryangry: :veryangry:
Quote from: GlenEglise on July 05, 2021, 11:33:49 PM
Can we just kill this thread? It appears from time to time and achieves nothing. What happens in the marketplace happens. If people do not like it they have an option under their direct control.
No need to keep going over the same old arguments.
:veryangry: :veryangry: :veryangry: :veryangry:
Nobody is forcing you to read it.
I think this batch production era we are living in isn't all bad. Yes it is inconvenient but what are the good points?
1. We get the "thrill of the chase" when we find what we are after. I love it!
2. We all get to be collectors waiting impatiently for the next one in the series to come out. As a committed train runner I never used to understand collectors but now I do (a bit).
3. It does help to spread the cost of building up a rake of coaches.
4. It forces us to think about what we really want and what other options might work. For instance I've been checking what stock was in general use in 1963 and as a result I now have more pre nationalisation stock than I used to. There was still quite a bit around even in 1963.
5. We can always try Electra Rail printed sides for any missing coaches we really must have. This forces us to do a bit of actual modelling which I see as a good thing. Nowhere near as good as a current Farish Mk1 but not too bad in a long rake.
So overall I would say batch production makes life more interesting. As it reduces manufacturers overall costs and therefore prices it is a good thing. Its always best to see the good rather than the bad. I started this topic to warn folk that, if they were thinking of buying any Farish coaches, it might be better to do it sooner rather than later due to the price rises appearing on new batches.
Quote from: belstone on July 05, 2021, 10:22:49 PMI had to use a BG because no-one anywhere had any maroon brake ends. No BSKs, no BCKs. I just had a look round online and the situation hasn't changed. Plenty of RUs, FOs and sleepers though.
But the counter-point is that at least we know that all those variations
will eventually re-appear at some point... In the old days there was a BSK, a CK and a Buffet, no BCK, RU, SO or FO ever... and yes 80% of shops could sell you a CK 80%of the time but if you wanted more than one with different numbers - tough - you were going to have to renumber all but one yourself...
This has been an interesting discussion because I'm surprised no one has noticed this as part of a wider trend. In the US/Europe we have entered a period of price inflation of everything, not just models.
Yes there will be outliers that will have got cheaper but the general trend of many necessities and luxury items is up!
Quote from: Chris Morris on July 06, 2021, 07:35:59 AM
I think this batch production era we are living in isn't all bad. Yes it is inconvenient but what are the good points?
1. We get the "thrill of the chase" when we find what we are after. I love it!
2. We all get to be collectors waiting impatiently for the next one in the series to come out. As a committed train runner I never used to understand collectors but now I do (a bit).
3. It does help to spread the cost of building up a rake of coaches.
4. It forces us to think about what we really want and what other options might work. For instance I've been checking what stock was in general use in 1963 and as a result I now have more pre nationalisation stock than I used to. There was still quite a bit around even in 1963.
5. We can always try Electra Rail printed sides for any missing coaches we really must have. This forces us to do a bit of actual modelling which I see as a good thing. Nowhere near as good as a current Farish Mk1 but not too bad in a long rake.
So overall I would say batch production makes life more interesting. As it reduces manufacturers overall costs and therefore prices it is a good thing. Its always best to see the good rather than the bad. I started this topic to warn folk that, if they were thinking of buying any Farish coaches, it might be better to do it sooner rather than later due to the price rises appearing on new batches.
"do a bit of actual modelling "
now theres an idea...
Quote from: Chris Morris on July 06, 2021, 07:35:59 AM
I think this batch production era we are living in isn't all bad. Yes it is inconvenient but what are the good points?
1. We get the "thrill of the chase" when we find what we are after. I love it!
2. We all get to be collectors waiting impatiently for the next one in the series to come out. As a committed train runner I never used to understand collectors but now I do (a bit).
3. It does help to spread the cost of building up a rake of coaches.
4. It forces us to think about what we really want and what other options might work. For instance I've been checking what stock was in general use in 1963 and as a result I now have more pre nationalisation stock than I used to. There was still quite a bit around even in 1963.
5. We can always try Electra Rail printed sides for any missing coaches we really must have. This forces us to do a bit of actual modelling which I see as a good thing. Nowhere near as good as a current Farish Mk1 but not too bad in a long rake.
So overall I would say batch production makes life more interesting. As it reduces manufacturers overall costs and therefore prices it is a good thing. Its always best to see the good rather than the bad. I started this topic to warn folk that, if they were thinking of buying any Farish coaches, it might be better to do it sooner rather than later due to the price rises appearing on new batches.
I'm not a fan of batch production but it is now a fact of life. I agree with the points raised, especially number 5.
Personally I don't have an issue with the prices asked for locomotives and some like the new Farish 8F should have even been higher as they are engineering masterpieces. My issue is the rolling stock prices, and the cost of building a train, yes I know they now have more underframe detail and that costs more, but it's not really needed, who looks under their wagons and coaches,
I also understand that for some price is not an issue and for them the poor can just shut up and go away and they will carry on paying the asking price because they can, and the sellers will carry on thinking, good they all sold so we have not reached the natural price limit yet.
Those lucky enough to be financially stable, like those on final salary pensions are dieing off, quite literally, only to be replaced by more financially limited customers, so the future of this hobby does not look bright, which is a shame as the trend for building smaller and smaller houses should have resulted in a boom for n-gauge modelling.
Still back to now, it's an expensive hobby, if you can't afford it, go and play with something less expensive ;) and stop bothering the wealthy elite :)
NGM
Quote from: Bigmac on July 06, 2021, 08:37:58 AM
Quote from: Chris Morris on July 06, 2021, 07:35:59 AM
I think this batch production era we are living in isn't all bad. Yes it is inconvenient but what are the good points?
1. We get the "thrill of the chase" when we find what we are after. I love it!
2. We all get to be collectors waiting impatiently for the next one in the series to come out. As a committed train runner I never used to understand collectors but now I do (a bit).
3. It does help to spread the cost of building up a rake of coaches.
4. It forces us to think about what we really want and what other options might work. For instance I've been checking what stock was in general use in 1963 and as a result I now have more pre nationalisation stock than I used to. There was still quite a bit around even in 1963.
5. We can always try Electra Rail printed sides for any missing coaches we really must have. This forces us to do a bit of actual modelling which I see as a good thing. Nowhere near as good as a current Farish Mk1 but not too bad in a long rake.
So overall I would say batch production makes life more interesting. As it reduces manufacturers overall costs and therefore prices it is a good thing. Its always best to see the good rather than the bad. I started this topic to warn folk that, if they were thinking of buying any Farish coaches, it might be better to do it sooner rather than later due to the price rises appearing on new batches.
"do a bit of actual modelling "
now theres an idea...
I became peeved at the Year on Year price increases from Farish. I also wanted to create a rake for a late 40s/early 50s Royal Scot train...for starters. So, I decided to try my hand at making my own carriages. I started with some catering carriages not available RTR.
I would urge others who want to create a realistic rake to consider having a go at making their own. RM web has a section on making carriages in N gauge with many photos (some being mine) and an abundance of advice.
Of course I fully understand it won't be for everyone. However, looking at a rake of carriages you have made yourself is very gratifying. Two sources of kits and parts are Worsley Works and Etched Pixels.
I'm sure that before long somebody will start producing carriages/parts in 3D...if they haven't already.
Quote from: belstone on July 05, 2021, 10:22:49 PM
[...] For much of the last couple of years Farish 16 ton mineral wagons have been as rare as unicorns. BR built a quarter of a million of them. Is the demand for models really so limited that Farish don't dare make more than a tiny number every two or three years?
Hello Richard
I have three (I think) of these, 'sixteen-tonners' not unicorns (!), in the loft. Bought before I had refined my rolling stock requirements for the Table-Top Railway and now completely surplus to requirements. Please let me know if you would like to rehome them.
Best wishes.
John
@belstone (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=2569)
There are some amazing new developments in 3D printing coming, for instance full colour prints in high quality that could rival RTR. Of course, they are incredibly expensive now but in ten years time you might be able to go online, select a rake of Mk2 coaches in Inter-City livery and have them fabricated and delivered.
I agree with what's been said about batch sizes - why the SO/SK/TSO are produced at the same rate as the restaurant/buffer cars I'll never understand. It wouldn't be so bad if the gap between re-issues was shorter.
Quote from: PLD on July 06, 2021, 07:51:02 AM
In the old days there was a BSK, a CK and a Buffet, no BCK, RU, SO or FO ever...
Just a minor correction. When based at Poole, Farish produced the following Mk1:
BG
GUV
BCK
SK
RMB
POS
(If you wanted a BSK, CK you needed to buy from Minitrix. TPM replacement window inserts allowed most types to be modelled. There were also etched sides from Ultima Models).
When Bachmann took over they removed some of the detail from the tooling allowing them to produce BSK, RU, SO, CK and FK - although these were missing interiors and you couldn't get some livery/model combinations. They didn't do a Blue/Grey CK for example.
When the Blue-Riband models came out, Farish tooled extra roof and interiors, allowing best use of the main body shells allowing a wide range or types to be made:
SK, SO, FK, FO, BCK, BSK, CK, RMB, RU, RFO, SLF, SLSTP, GUV, BG, CCT, POS, HB & five types of Pullman.
There are a number of different Mk1 diagrams that haven't been produced (e.g. FO with three doors), but the key missing ones are a POT, BSO, and the refurbished buffet cars (and the BFK).
Steven B
I'm not sure model railways is an expensive hobby compared to other hobbies. Look at the price of ebikes. Bargain basement is about £2k and top of the range is now well over £10k - and you still have to pedal! You can easily pay over £500 just for a good fishing rod, then there is all the other equipment. The price per night at campsites is starting to get silly and glamming is ridiculous. Even painting pictures will work out expensive when you think of all the equipment you need and then travelling to the right spot to paint.
Life is expensive, enjoying life more so.
[mod]This thread is remaining open due to member interest. If it was closed, it would no doubt spring up again in the future, so all discussion may as well remain here.[/mod]
Can we kill the idea that detail adds massively to the price - it adds something but the bulk of the cost is the same whether you have a low detailed model or highly detailed model (for new tooling). You can design a highly detailed model using the same amount or marginally more tooling than a low detailed model. Removing detail from rolling stock isn't going to make much difference to the final price.
Again another myth, Literally no company is sat there thinking if I under supply then I will appeal to collectors. Under supply is mostly about not wanting to hold stock (otherwise prices increase to cover that stock holding), underestimating demand or inflexibility of production schedules.
Batch sizes - can definitely be varied, we do that all the time.
Batch re-runs - part of the problem is judging when to re-run things (we're about to re-run a couple of models 4-5 years after the first run). When we've asked for interest in second runs of something that sold well in the first run there was nowhere near enough interest to justify a rerun. So it isn't straight forward and ultimately comes back to not wanting/being able to hold stock.
I do wonder if the heat and light generated in some of these posts is really worth it. Costs are going up for all sorts of economic reasons as well as greater detail and accuracy, so if you are really peeved then why not buy secondhand? I would argue that many of the things people are talking about wanting are out there for sale on eBay, in shops (when open of course) and on the forum. Regarding coaches, I've had a few on the Emporium for a few weeks now and have only sold one, so demand can't be that high. I'm selling mainly common Mk1 coaches with only a couple of SR catering cars that are a bit less popular. They are all being sold at under half RRP so why aren't all the people complaining here about lack of choice not snapping them up? Bizarre..... They will end up on eBay soon and hopefully sell there to those who don't frequent this forum.
Dave
Quote from: Southerngooner on July 06, 2021, 01:36:00 PM
<snip>
I do wonder if the heat and light generated in some of these posts is really worth it.
</snip>
Well, it allows people to let off steam, and there are always those to whom the issues are new. But it's been useful for me: just received a nicely-refreshed pre-owned Farish 101 from Dr Al of this parish, and Adrian's earlier post reminded me to get on & order some Electra vinyls to perk it up a bit more!
Richard
Quote from: Southerngooner on July 06, 2021, 01:36:00 PM
Costs are going up for all sorts of economic reasons as well as greater detail and accuracy, so if you are really peeved then why not buy secondhand? I would argue that many of the things people are talking about wanting are out there for sale on eBay, in shops (when open of course) and on the forum.
Second hand prices have risen just as much as buying new. Even Poole era models appear to be going on the likes of eBay and Hattons for prices twice that they were originally available for.
Poole era Mk2s appear to sell for around £15, with early Chinese versions adding another £10 to that price. As for current Blue-Riband standard models, a single Mk2a TSO recently sold for £88!
If folk are willing to pay that much for a second hand model then:
a. Is it any wonder Farish are pushing coach prices towards £50 and
b. Why aren't they cashing in by producing more TSO in their first runs?
Steven B.
PS. Southerngooner - your coaches on the N'porium are very reasonably priced!
Thanks for the comment re my prices Stephen! What I was trying to highlight in my earlier post was despite my coaches being inexpensive compared to new, no-one wants to buy them despite people claiming shortages of the same stock.....
A particular interest of mine has been picking up green Farish 4-CEPs, of which I now have five. These have all been bought for under £150, three of them in the last year. I may just be very lucky but people bemoan their rarity and some go for almost twice my highest price paid. This makes me wonder if there really is a shortage of stuff or do some people not look very hard? Yes, there are expensive things on eBay and in shops but there are bargains too.....
Dave
Dave
Quote from: Southerngooner on July 06, 2021, 01:36:00 PM
why not buy secondhand?
Out of idle curiosity, is there anyone that has never and does never buy secondhand? I'd imagine we all have bough S/h before (it seems totally vital), but it'd be interesting to know if there's a faction that only buy new....
Cheers,
Alan
Quote from: Southerngooner on July 06, 2021, 04:35:51 PM
A particular interest of mine has been picking up green Farish 4-CEPs, of which I now have five. These have all been bought for under £150, three of them in the last year. I may just be very lucky but people bemoan their rarity and some go for almost twice my highest price paid. This makes me wonder if there really is a shortage of stuff or do some people not look very hard? Yes, there are expensive things on eBay and in shops but there are bargains too.....
Dave
Dave
I'll understand if you're reluctant to reveal your sources, but I'd love to know where you've picked up Green 4-CEPs for less than £150 recently. I've had one for many years but am keen for a second (with SYP). Ebay prices are consistently north of £200, other auction prices can be even higher and I keep a close, if so far fruitless, eye on the 2nd hand section of my local model shop. Mind you, I did pick up a mint BachFar Bob / WC there a few weeks ago for just £60 that runs like a dream, so I'm not totally unlucky.
Mark
Judging by the prices that people are willing to pay on eBay ('Peak' for £300...), then £50 for new coach doesn't seem unreasonable.....but then again, I also have a feeling that eBay prices are so high because there are few Farish new releases, even of models previously released.
I'm fortunate that I have virtually all the locos and stock I need, and, indeed, may be going to sell some older Poole and Minitrix (need to dig boxes out of loft first).
However, my concern is that due to the batch release system. should anything happen to my stock, it would prove nearly impossible to replace it.
It also means that collections need to be continuously reviewed for insurance purposes, be that at home or for exhibition valuations.
But as was said near the beginning of the thread, these are models, and therefore desires, not essentials for living.
Martyn
The only new locos i have bought over the last 3 years have been UM's--most of them were re-runs. The rest ( over 40 ) were second hand, mostly off ebay--the majority cost less than 50 quid each--some half that.
100% of my rolling stock has been bought second hand--mostly off ebay,--i wont go over £10 for a coach and £3-4 for goods wagons, mostly bought in rakes or job lots.
But because of the daft second hand prices paid this last 12 months i'm thinking of buying new--maybe 4 locos a year That will save me a fair bit.
Mark, in terms of my most recent 4CEPs I bought two on eBay and one from the NGS Journal. The latter cost £150, one on eBay was £90 but to be fair this was only a three car set with no unpowered driving trailer, (which I got when the winner of the auction failed to pay as they hadn't seen it was incomplete despite a very clear description), and the third was a power car only today at £70 BIN to make the former set a full 4 car. I suppose that's only two sets but three transactions, all at reasonable prices. My others cost £100 at a show in Essex in 2016, one from Hattons when they couldn't give them away at £89 in 2014 and the last at £80 from Plus Daughters at the Bristol show in 2018. Maybe I'm just lucky?
Dave
Quote from: Dr Al on July 06, 2021, 05:01:31 PM
Quote from: Southerngooner on July 06, 2021, 01:36:00 PM
why not buy secondhand?
Out of idle curiosity, is there anyone that has never and does never buy secondhand? I'd imagine we all have bough S/h before (it seems totally vital), but it'd be interesting to know if there's a faction that only buy new....
Cheers,
Alan
I rarely buy second hand. My pessimists view of the world tells me that anything I buy secondhand won't work and will cost more to fix than buying new.
I do have a Farish 66 bought at a toy sale on my last visit to the UK, and then tested on a kind person's layout at the NGS Annual meeting that year.
I recently bought a second Farish CL66 from Hattons (GBRF InterHub GB livery), this did run but was missing a gear from one of the bogies, so the bogie was duly replaced from my spares box.
Why didn't I just replace the gear? Because I don't have the tools and I am a mechanical numpty.
I have also bought some Farish VTG hoppers second hand from Hattons but I view wagons as low risk.
And buying from Hattons means it's easier to send stuff back if it's not as described.
If I get to TINGS this year then I would consider buying more S/H wagons to fill out my current fleet.
Regards,
John P
I have just bought a new class 40 from my local dealer so I paid top price. I also buy s/h too, and I have bought off e-bay but I got ripped off last time by a so called dealer who said he would compensate me for the non runner loco with a split gear. He did offer to take it back but where would I have got another with stock selling out because of covid. I have learned my lesson I will avoid e-bay now, any s/h I will buy from my local dealer who I know will fix it or exchange it for something else.
I know of a couple of peoole who have never knowingly bought second hand, except perhaps the odd bit at exhibitions. Don't use eBay, will just pick bits up new when available. They're definitely out there. It's been observed that in the grand scheme of things the cost of model railways isn't that high. For me the big thing is high resale values too. I buy stuff on a whim, because I know that if I change my mind (or needed the money) I could sell it. I've recently sold a few rakes of wagons, because I'd owned them for 10 years and never removed them from their boxes, clearly they were superfluous!
Quote from: lil chris on July 06, 2021, 07:47:12 PM
... I have learned my lesson I will avoid e-bay now...
Yes that sounds like a bad transaction but certainly isn't the norm for eBay, I'd not consider it the basis for a lesson to be learned or something to put you off.
I'd say 90%+ of my purchases are from ebay and have been for many years. In recent times probably on average 1 or 2 locos a month plus other bits and pieces. It's a wonderfully broad single marketplace to find stuff. I pick up mostly brand new or clearly hardly used and with a significant saving over shop prices. I always check elsewhere for comparison, but a lot of the time they're models sold out at the factory and out of stock in shops. Sometimes it'll be a used but rare item item that I'm confident is easy to sort out.
Yep, like Nick I buy much of my stuff from eBay. My worst purchase of late was a non-runner DCC-fitted Dapol 66 from Rails. The price was fine, given it was DCC fitted, but actually the decoder had blown, and someone had fiddled with it - one of the bogie screws was wrong, the driveshaft was missing and the pickups were mangled. Bit of a pain, but hey Ho, one of those things. Fixed for a trivial sum, but it moved it from 'good value' to 'about the right price', ignoring the time I spent sorting it!
The worst items are those in packaging that stinks of smoke, or stock being over oiled and full of hair. One or the other is a pain, combined it's horrendous!
Quote from: njee20 on July 06, 2021, 08:50:17 PM
The worst items are those in packaging that stinks of smoke, or stock being over oiled and full of hair. One or the other is a pain, combined it's horrendous!
Yep totally agree. It's disgusting to receive an item reeking of tobacco smoke. Baby wipes will remove a lot of it on plain surfaces but getting onto nooks and crannies is very time consuming. Fortunately I've not had one like that for a while now. Over-oiling is a strange thing, I don't know why some folk think drowning a model in 3-in-1 will actually improve things. A full strip-down is required to sort that out along with de-fluffing.
I rarely buy second-hand stuff. Apart from a few buildings kits and scenic items over the years, the only second-hand locos I have ever bought are from cloughie of this parish via NewportNobby, last year.
And very nice they are, too, by the way. :thumbsup:
Quote from: Southerngooner on July 06, 2021, 05:57:25 PM
Mark, in terms of my most recent 4CEPs I bought two on eBay and one from the NGS Journal. The latter cost £150, one on eBay was £90 but to be fair this was only a three car set with no unpowered driving trailer, (which I got when the winner of the auction failed to pay as they hadn't seen it was incomplete despite a very clear description), and the third was a power car only today at £70 BIN to make the former set a full 4 car. I suppose that's only two sets but three transactions, all at reasonable prices. My others cost £100 at a show in Essex in 2016, one from Hattons when they couldn't give them away at £89 in 2014 and the last at £80 from Plus Daughters at the Bristol show in 2018. Maybe I'm just lucky?
Dave
I think you've done very well there Dave. I've been looking, with increasing intent, for a second 4CEP for about 3 years now, having grown ever more frustrated at Bachmann's (or anyone else's) reluctance to produce any other Southern 3rd rail emus (5BEL apart). Prices have certainly risen over that time and I can't see them coming down any time soon so in the absence of unearthing a bargain somewhere, I guess I'll just have to take a deep breath and pay current Ebay prices - there are 2 currently listed at an eye-watering £265 and £270. Not expensive, compared to say the forthcoming 319, but a fortune compared to the £89 or £99 I paid a few years ago!
Agree with the comments made about the frustrations of limited runs and more pertinently the gaps between them.
Mark
With regards to that Peak, I've seen them go for between £220-£260 ridiculous to be honest but eBay are ripping us off with their new way of paying out taking 13.8% of a final purchase which he will only get around £259 if he hasn't got a promotion... with regards to MK2A & MK2F coaches... last week I saw a MK2A TSO go for £88 and 2 x MK2F TSO's for £190, you can be pretty certain that there will be TSO's and FK's following on from the BSO and again with the MK2F's there will be another run of those too.
Price generally have shot up though I paid £145 for my blue disc 40 up from £123. Seems bugger all to buy at the moment just hoping on a few nice surprises over christmas!!
Steve.
Standard eBay fees are 12.8%. They used to be 10%, plus PayPal fees of 2.9%. Want to add those together and explain why managed payments is a rip off...?
Get a discount selling fee offer and managed payments is amazing!
Big fan of eBay here. I've managed to snag a few bargains and a number of discontinued items.
There are some nasty surprises out there (but not many in my experience) and you can just send it back if it isn't as described. eBay heavily favour the buyer in disputes which makes it pretty easy. As a seller, I always make sure to be clear, partly as it's the right thing to do, but also because eBay won't take any prisoners!
Quote from: Chris Morris on July 03, 2021, 08:11:20 AM
I'm glad I bought some mk2A coaches the first time around. Rrp for the recently announced mk2a brake compo is £49.95!
Ok that is blue and grey which costs more than maroon and it is weathered but even so that's a heavy price. Also I would rather weather them myself because the Farish weathering on coaches never looks like any coaches I have seen in service.
See https://www.modelrailwaysdirect.co.uk/rolling-stock-passenger-n/graham-farish-374-680b-br-mk2a-bso-brake-second-open-br-blue-grey-weathered/ (https://www.modelrailwaysdirect.co.uk/rolling-stock-passenger-n/graham-farish-374-680b-br-mk2a-bso-brake-second-open-br-blue-grey-weathered/)
why say sorry ? this has proved to be a lively thread. Long may it continue.