You can now pay in the UK a quarter of a 1000 pounds! £250 for a dapol or farish sound fitted loco
In the USA they start at half that and in Germany around £150.
I just imported a sound fitted Piko from germany much cheaper and was not charged vat.
Even with vat they are cheaper from the USA.
So why are UK customers being ripped off?
Where is the difference in cost between the UK loco and your Piko example? Is it cost of the basic loco or is it the additional charged on top of that for sound?
What is the price for each with and without sound? For each, what is the difference in £s and % terms between sound and non-sound versions?
Quote from: PLD on May 23, 2021, 08:30:01 AM
Where is the difference in cost between the UK loco and your Piko example? Is it cost of the basic loco or is it the additional charged on top of that for sound?
What is the price for each with and without sound? For each, what is the difference in £s and % terms between sound and non-sound versions?
The locos themselves and the sound decoders are cheaper abroad, seem to be related to UK markups?
Not exactly sure why they are marked up so much in the UK; most are now made in China and are imported in bulk.
£250 for sound is not a rip off when a good quality sound chip like a Zimo costs £99 with a sound file loaded, a speaker possibly £10 and if you can't do a custom fit the cost of someone doing it for you (say £50 depending on the work). That's £160 plus the cost of a loco, discounted say £130 = £290.
A Next 18, speaker fitted sound chipped loco at £250 looks quite a bargain next to that.
Comparing a Piko model is not relevant, it is not a British loco it has a different market, possibly potential for greater sales volumes in the USA brings the cost down.
I just don't get why it has to be concluded that British models are a rip off. In global terms the market is small with production runs of maybe 4000 covering a number of liveries. I suspect there were a thousand 8Fs produced (Bachmann do 1008 per livery). Of the £250 £50 is VAT straight away, the rest covers design, tooling, production, shipping, manufacturer, Bachmann and then retailer profit margins.
Nobody is getting rich it is just the price it needs to be in order to be viable. I guess everyone is free not to buy if it is too pricey as with most things!
Regards
Roy
Are we doing this again?
OK here goes:
I don't believe anyone is being ripped off.
The markets abroad - especially in the US - are much, much larger than the UK N gauge market (which also interoperability due to the scale difference) and this means production set up costs (tooling, tampo masters, production line management) are amortised across far more models.
Also, are you sure European are cheaper in general? Some might 'start' at £150 but is that where the bulk of the market is? I just looked and the next European model I am interested in (forthcoming Arnold FS E656 Bo-Bo-Bo with sound) is listing at around £230-240 in most places.
By the same token the latest Farish 31 with DCC sound is £225 at Rails, so comparable.
cheers
Ben A.
Quote from: Roy L S on May 23, 2021, 08:49:51 AM
£250 for sound is not a rip off when a good quality sound chip like a Zimo costs £99 with a sound file loaded, a speaker possibly £10 and if you can't do a custom fit the cost of someone doing it for you (say £50 depending on the work). That's £160 plus the cost of a loco, discounted say £130 = £290.
A Next 18, speaker fitted sound chipped loco at £250 looks quite a bargain next to that.
Just built a fully working arduino/ motor /wifi fitted dcc JMRI controller for £39.
Works great using a mobile phone free android engine driver app, that's what I call a bargain!
UK market needs a home-based company to design/manufacture sound decoders but I am sure Farish and Dapol pay a fraction of £99 to have china factory-integrated sound.
Quote from: Ontrack on May 23, 2021, 09:06:19 AM
Just built a fully working arduino/ motor /wifi fitted dcc JMRI controller for £39.
Works great using a mobile phone free android engine driver app, that's what I call a bargain!
UK market needs a home-based company to design/manufacture sound decoders but I am sure Farish and Dapol pay a fraction of £99 to have china factory-integrated sound.
That's great. Most of us don't have that sort of expertise.
But let's imagine you are producing that controller en masse as a business. You could just sell for the cost of parts; but let's say you want to earn a salary that reflects your skill and is needed to pay the bills.
How many hours did it take you to build? 1 hour? 2 hours? Do you have to test every one? What about returns, and product support? Answering customer emails? Do you want some money for R&D of new products, an office or warehouse, advertising, basic back office functions to sustain your business? To fund this how much would you need to sell your £39 controller for? £100? £150? £250?
Yes, of course Farish and Dapol pay a fraction of £99 for sound - that is how manufacturing and retail businesses work.
Profit isn't a dirty word; in fact it is essential to ensure a company survives and can develop new products. I appreciate that the cost of some items is more than you would like to pay, but that is just the cost; you aren't getting 'ripped off.'
Also, sound files for UK models are usually produced in the UK by the likes of Legomanbiffo (used by Revolution) or Paulie Banger. There are others. Their files are flashed into chips in China and then installed in the models there, since that is far cheaper than flashing them here and sending them all to China for fitting, or paying someone here to fit them to thousands of models arriving.
cheers
Ben A.
We have Hornby TTS. They're less than £40 a decoder. You can get a OO gauge 66 with sound for under £100, so your Piko loco was a massive rip off.
It's an apples:oranges comparison, and utterly pointless.
I'll probably regret even getting involved in this discussion because it really is a waste of time.
YOU have managed to do that but presumably
YOU dont need a business premises to allow this to happen
YOU don't need to pay yourself minimum wage
YOU dont need to pay your pension contributions
YOU dont need to pay NI contributions
YOU dont need business insurance
YOU dont need to employ people
YOU dont need to comply with employment laws
YOU dont need ANYTHING a business requires
EVERYTHING is expensive to manufacture and create in Britain hence the price reflection. Companies need to make profit to enable reinvestment to an ever demanding market.
I NEVER understand the complaints about the price with everything to do with this hobby.
If its deemed too expensive dont bother!!!
Quote from: Ontrack on May 23, 2021, 09:06:19 AM
Just built a fully working arduino/ motor /wifi fitted dcc JMRI controller for £39.
Works great using a mobile phone free android engine driver app, that's what I call a bargain!
UK market needs a home-based company to design/manufacture sound decoders but I am sure Farish and Dapol pay a fraction of £99 to have china factory-integrated sound.
So go on then, start the company up. I guess you won't for the same reason no one has: you aren't going too get rich, no one is especially if concentrating on the N gauge UK market.
It seems every other week someone is moaning about the cost of British N and every time the answer is the same and it won't change. The British N gauge market is very small and cannot be compared to other countries. A run of a 1000 items is always going to cost more than a run of 10,000 when set up costs are the same, it's simple economics.
Manufacturers have to set a price that will cover their development and production costs, return a profit for future investment and be at a level their marketing research says it will sell at.
As for the cries of "rip off" it is a hobby and absolutely no one is forcing anyone to buy anything.
Quote from: Ontrack on May 23, 2021, 09:06:19 AM
Quote from: Roy L S on May 23, 2021, 08:49:51 AM
£250 for sound is not a rip off when a good quality sound chip like a Zimo costs £99 with a sound file loaded, a speaker possibly £10 and if you can't do a custom fit the cost of someone doing it for you (say £50 depending on the work). That's £160 plus the cost of a loco, discounted say £130 = £290.
A Next 18, speaker fitted sound chipped loco at £250 looks quite a bargain next to that.
Just built a fully working arduino/ motor /wifi fitted dcc JMRI controller for £39.
Works great using a mobile phone free android engine driver app, that's what I call a bargain!
UK market needs a home-based company to design/manufacture sound decoders but I am sure Farish and Dapol pay a fraction of £99 to have china factory-integrated sound.
Indeed, absolutely no doubt as regards wholesale discounts.
My comparison in that respect was the option of doing the conversion yourself on a British model or having it done (until recently the only options) as against what you can now get RTR and reflecting on that.
Maybe seven years ago I spent over £300 on a sound fitted Farish Ivatt 2-6-0 - not a rip off it was the going rate. Today if I shop around I can buy a sound fitted 8F or Class 31 for about £240.
Sound in British models has got significantly cheaper, I bought a Zimo sound chip for my lovely little C Class - £99 with the file loaded. The loco cost £116, so for a little over £200 I have a sound fitted loco maybe 30% cheaper than the Ivatt I bought (my second sound loco) all those years ago.
I think that my comparison surely more relevant to the "rip off" argument than comparing to overseas markets where many other considerations also apply and one isn't comparing apples with apples.
I have no doubt that buying a thousand decoders or whatever brings the unit price down, 10,000 doubtless more. Is there a large enough market for a UK manufacturer? I honestly don't know the answer to that question.
Regards
Roy
Well it's already started in USA, Germany, and Japan in N gauge.
Highly respected companies like Kato are producing sound upgrades for around £50 retail.
It's time the UK did the same in my opinion.
All markets are now international so any UK company first needs to produce a reliable loco mechanism and then sell it globally around the world with different bodies and affordable add-ons.
It can be done but it's taking a long time.
Quote from: Ontrack on May 23, 2021, 10:13:33 AM
Well it's already started in USA, Germany, and Japan in N gauge.
Highly respected companies like Kato are producing sound upgrades for around £50 retail.
It's time the UK did the same in my opinion.
All markets are now international so any UK company first needs to produce a reliable loco mechanism and then sell it globally around the world with different bodies and affordable add-ons.
It can be done but it's taking a long time.
With all due respect as consumers the Market is now way past "near enough" generic chassis and inaccurate bodies made to fit these days. Each chassis is accurately made bespoke to a loco, in the case of steam driving wheels with authentic number of spokes, balance weights etc.
No way people will be happy to go back to the days of (e.g.) Minitrix where an approximation of a British loco was made for a continental chassis. The models' prices these days reflect this level of accuracy in the cost to research and produce, it is what the Market now demands.
Regards
Roy
Quote from: Ontrack on May 23, 2021, 10:13:33 AM
Well it's already started in USA, Germany, and Japan in N gauge.
Highly respected companies like Kato are producing sound upgrades for around £50 retail.
It's time the UK did the same in my opinion.
All markets are now international so any UK company first needs to produce a reliable loco mechanism and then sell it globally around the world with different bodies and affordable add-ons.
It can be done but it's taking a long time.
I am not sure what was unclear about my earlier explanation for prices, but I'll try again.
* The markets in the US, Japan and, to a slightly lesser extent, Germany are far larger than the UK market, so they enjoy economies of scale. Typical UK production runs for new models are 1000-2000 units. Typically Kato produce no fewer than 10,000 in a single livery.
* Britain has an oddball scale - 1:148 - so there is very little commonality between potentially shared components. And one reason Kato mechanisms perform so well is that they are engineered skilfully and precisely for each model; as soon as you try to share components (beyond simple things like motors, LEDs or gears) you introduce the potential for error either knowingly or unknowingly. I am not aware of a single chassis used by any manufacturer for both UK and international items of stock. It isn't starting to happen.
So the question is: Are manufacturers going to compromise their products and/or invest in huge overproduction of stock to save you a few pennies or pounds on a discretionary purchase? Unlikely, is my view.
cheers
Ben A.
Quote from: Ontrack on May 23, 2021, 10:13:33 AM
Well it's already started in USA, Germany, and Japan in N gauge.
Highly respected companies like Kato are producing sound upgrades for around £50 retail.
It's time the UK did the same in my opinion.
Can you provide a link to the Kato on-board sound upgrades, please? I cannot find them.
Just to show how ridiculous international comparisons are, Minitrix have just issued a recolour of a non-sound non-DCC French diesel model for 235 euros.
No sound option. But another 35 euros for DCC/Selectrix.
https://www.dm-toys.de/en/product-details/Minitrix_16706.html (https://www.dm-toys.de/en/product-details/Minitrix_16706.html)
Quote from: Roy L S on May 23, 2021, 10:57:14 AM
No way people will be happy to go back to the days of (e.g.) Minitrix where an approximation of a British loco was made for a continental chassis. The models' prices these days reflect this level of accuracy in the cost to research and produce, it is what the Market now demands.
Regards
Roy
Of course, modelers want accurate details which for the most part they are now getting.
There are exceptions like Union Mills whose locos make up for it in other ways like great pulling power.
It doesn't have to cost any more with modern CAD (computer-aided design) systems to create accurate wheels etc.
Anyway, dc analog and dcc sound are fast becoming the norm so it shouldn't be a £99 accessory IMO.
Quote from: woodbury22uk on May 23, 2021, 11:09:51 AM
Quote from: Ontrack on May 23, 2021, 10:13:33 AM
Well it's already started in USA, Germany, and Japan in N gauge.
Highly respected companies like Kato are producing sound upgrades for around £50 retail.
It's time the UK did the same in my opinion.
Can you provide a link to the Kato on-board sound upgrades, please? I cannot find them.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_nkw=sound&_sacat=69812&_sop=15 (https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_nkw=sound&_sacat=69812&_sop=15)
https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_nkw=kato+sound&_sacat=486&_sop=15&_pgn=1 (https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_nkw=kato+sound&_sacat=486&_sop=15&_pgn=1)
Quote from: Ontrack on May 23, 2021, 11:23:55 AM
Quote from: woodbury22uk on May 23, 2021, 11:09:51 AM
Quote from: Ontrack on May 23, 2021, 10:13:33 AM
Well it's already started in USA, Germany, and Japan in N gauge.
Highly respected companies like Kato are producing sound upgrades for around £50 retail.
It's time the UK did the same in my opinion.
Can you provide a link to the Kato on-board sound upgrades, please? I cannot find them.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_nkw=sound&_sacat=69812&_sop=15 (https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_nkw=sound&_sacat=69812&_sop=15)
That's a joke right?
A £25 sound card that you plug into a £100-£150 box that plays generic sounds as you drive a loco round.
How on earth can you compare that to a accurate recording of a particular loco that actually plays from the loco, linked to the loco functions.
Hardly a good comparison.
Quote from: Ontrack on May 23, 2021, 11:23:55 AM
Quote from: woodbury22uk on May 23, 2021, 11:09:51 AM
Quote from: Ontrack on May 23, 2021, 10:13:33 AM
Well it's already started in USA, Germany, and Japan in N gauge.
Highly respected companies like Kato are producing sound upgrades for around £50 retail.
It's time the UK did the same in my opinion.
Can you provide a link to the Kato on-board sound upgrades, please? I cannot find them.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_nkw=sound&_sacat=69812&_sop=15 (https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_nkw=sound&_sacat=69812&_sop=15)
Totally different thing, those are memory cards for a trackside sound box. Not a sound decoder integrated into a loco
Yes my apologies not really relevant but I stick to my main thread topic.
Of course sounds played through a big speaker under the baseboards have two very big advantages over loco based systems:-
1. They can have a good depth of sound - something impossible inside an N gauge loco. Speakers may have improved but the sound is nothing like the real thing.
2. The sound can represent the whole train passing, not just the loco. As someone who has watched real trains go by I see this as a very big failing of all loco based systems.
I guess the biggest advantage is that if you have a smartphone and a bluetooth speaker you can do the speaker under the baseboard thing for free. I remain totally underwhelmed by sound from locos in both N and 00 - its more of an annoying tinny rattle than a proper sound experience, and as for the representation of a diesel horn - please just don't bother.
As to whether sound is a rip off. Well the cost of a chip is low but somebody has to capture sounds and then write thousands of lines of code. The cost of writing that code has to be recouped from sales. So higher sales = lower chip cost.
Quote from: Chris Morris on May 23, 2021, 11:45:44 AM
I remain totally underwhelmed by sound from locos in both N and 00 - its more of an annoying tinny rattle than a proper sound experience, and as for the representation of a diesel horn - please just don't bother.
Hi Chris,
I used to think this too, but I was recently (well, a few months ago) watching some locomotives puttering about and they were some distance away, probably the equivalent to how far - in scale terms - we are from our N gauge models at 'normal viewing distances.' I noticed that the treble sounds travelled far more than the bass sounds, meaning that from a distance locomotives *do* sound more tinny.
Having said that, my hearing isn't the best (as anyone who knows me will testify!) so it might just've been me!
cheers
Ben A.
Realistic N gauge built-in loco sound is harder in small locos or tankers, you can make the sound chips smaller like Zimo has done but speakers need to be enclosed in a larger box to sound ok.
Some of Broadway Ltd's larger diesel sounds are ok where the speaker box is a third of its overall length.
US benchmark Broadway USRA light Pacific with sound is $350 MSRP = £250, thereby rendering the rest of the discussion :censored: (changed by forum) :D
Quote from: Ben A on May 23, 2021, 11:52:38 AM
Quote from: Chris Morris on May 23, 2021, 11:45:44 AM
I remain totally underwhelmed by sound from locos in both N and 00 - its more of an annoying tinny rattle than a proper sound experience, and as for the representation of a diesel horn - please just don't bother.
Hi Chris,
I used to think this too, but I was recently (well, a few months ago) watching some locomotives puttering about and they were some distance away, probably the equivalent to how far - in scale terms - we are from our N gauge models at 'normal viewing distances.' I noticed that the treble sounds travelled far more than the bass sounds, meaning that from a distance locomotives *do* sound more tinny.
Having said that, my hearing isn't the best (as anyone who knows me will testify!) so it might just've been me!
cheers
Ben A.
But with a recording of a real train played through a trackside speaker I can make the floor shake! For some reason doing this doesn't make me very popular with others in the household.
Here is the new Kato compatible sound chip
https://www.dm-toys.de/en/product-details/ESU_58731.html (https://www.dm-toys.de/en/product-details/ESU_58731.html)
€110, Sounds €20 extra!
Is there anywhere for a speaker in most of the models?
Quote from: Chris Morris on May 23, 2021, 12:42:42 PM
Quote from: Ben A on May 23, 2021, 11:52:38 AM
Quote from: Chris Morris on May 23, 2021, 11:45:44 AM
I remain totally underwhelmed by sound from locos in both N and 00 - its more of an annoying tinny rattle than a proper sound experience, and as for the representation of a diesel horn - please just don't bother.
Hi Chris,
I used to think this too, but I was recently (well, a few months ago) watching some locomotives puttering about and they were some distance away, probably the equivalent to how far - in scale terms - we are from our N gauge models at 'normal viewing distances.' I noticed that the treble sounds travelled far more than the bass sounds, meaning that from a distance locomotives *do* sound more tinny.
Having said that, my hearing isn't the best (as anyone who knows me will testify!) so it might just've been me!
cheers
Ben A.
But with a recording of a real train played through a trackside speaker I can make the floor shake! For some reason doing this doesn't make me very popular with others in the household.
sounds better than in loco speakers--must be a lot less expensive too. Whats not to like ?
Quote from: Bigmac on May 25, 2021, 07:38:29 AM
Quote from: Chris Morris on May 23, 2021, 12:42:42 PM
Quote from: Ben A on May 23, 2021, 11:52:38 AM
Quote from: Chris Morris on May 23, 2021, 11:45:44 AM
I remain totally underwhelmed by sound from locos in both N and 00 - its more of an annoying tinny rattle than a proper sound experience, and as for the representation of a diesel horn - please just don't bother.
Hi Chris,
I used to think this too, but I was recently (well, a few months ago) watching some locomotives puttering about and they were some distance away, probably the equivalent to how far - in scale terms - we are from our N gauge models at 'normal viewing distances.' I noticed that the treble sounds travelled far more than the bass sounds, meaning that from a distance locomotives *do* sound more tinny.
Having said that, my hearing isn't the best (as anyone who knows me will testify!) so it might just've been me!
cheers
Ben A.
But with a recording of a real train played through a trackside speaker I can make the floor shake! For some reason doing this doesn't make me very popular with others in the household.
sounds better than in loco speakers--must be a lot less expensive too. Whats not to like ?
One thing folk might not like is that it is more of a watching the trains go by than a driving the train experience. Having said that, as someone who has been on a diesel driving experience day (expensive but worth every penny), the sound from a chip in a loco isn't a lot like the sound inside the cab. My whole sound set up cost me nothing at all. I used a free app on my PC to edit sound files to the correct length, a free soundpad app on my smartphone so I can select and play the sound I want at a touch of the screen and a decent bluetooth speaker that I already had.
Without giving too much away the last minute of my Dawlish Warren video for the NGF virtual event gives an idea of what can be achieved with a smartphone soundpad and a decent speaker under the layout. I did edit the sounds onto the video when making this but I can and do do it when running trains. Not for everyone but it does it for me when I am in that sort of mood.
This is a video of the passing sounds used on my last layout. This time the sound is as recorded when videoing with my smartphone. I was controlling the trains, pressing the buttons for the sound and filming all at the same time! Who says men can't multi-task?
For best results play this video loud through a decent sound system, phone speakers just don't replicate the experience. They are too small - like the speakers in N gauge locos.
I hugely miss the collaborations between Chris Eve and Shaun Harvey which produced the ultimate in sound and realism. Nothing even comes close and probably never will.
https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=16019.msg476864#msg476864 (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=16019.msg476864#msg476864)
It is easy enough to read the DCC data that is being sent to the tracks, so it should be simple enough to implement a sound system that responds just as an in-loco sound decoder would, but for the sound system to be stationary, attached to decent sized speakers and to be able to respond to and produce sounds for multiple addresses at the same time. Much easier than trying to squeeze sound into small locos, cheaper when you have many locos and able to adjust or mute the volume of all locos at once if needed.
A more advanced version could use position feedback of the locos to "follow" a loco around using quad speakers and could also adjust (due to knowing location) for working hard uphill, coasting down, etc.
Quote from: stevewalker on May 25, 2021, 12:17:00 PM
It is easy enough to read the DCC data that is being sent to the tracks, so it should be simple enough to implement a sound system that responds just as an in-loco sound decoder would, but for the sound system to be stationary, attached to decent sized speakers and to be able to respond to and produce sounds for multiple addresses at the same time. Much easier than trying to squeeze sound into small locos, cheaper when you have many locos and able to adjust or mute the volume of all locos at once if needed.
A more advanced version could use position feedback of the locos to "follow" a loco around using quad speakers and could also adjust (due to knowing location) for working hard uphill, coasting down, etc.
Am sure I saw a system that was like this, with discrete speakers around the layout and matched position to loco, also played ambient sounds on another channel through all speakers. Might have been a dream though... or just a conversation with someone!
Quote from: Fardap on May 25, 2021, 12:21:53 PM
Quote from: stevewalker on May 25, 2021, 12:17:00 PM
It is easy enough to read the DCC data that is being sent to the tracks, so it should be simple enough to implement a sound system that responds just as an in-loco sound decoder would, but for the sound system to be stationary, attached to decent sized speakers and to be able to respond to and produce sounds for multiple addresses at the same time. Much easier than trying to squeeze sound into small locos, cheaper when you have many locos and able to adjust or mute the volume of all locos at once if needed.
A more advanced version could use position feedback of the locos to "follow" a loco around using quad speakers and could also adjust (due to knowing location) for working hard uphill, coasting down, etc.
Am sure I saw a system that was like this, with discrete speakers around the layout and matched position to loco, also played ambient sounds on another channel through all speakers. Might have been a dream though... or just a conversation with someone!
Yes the Freiwald 4D sound system https://www.freiwald.com/pages/sound.htm (https://www.freiwald.com/pages/sound.htm)
Same company that make the Train controller computer control software
I wouldn't give them a penny of my money, the guy's an idiot!
Quote from: njee20 on May 25, 2021, 10:08:22 PM
I wouldn't give them a penny of my money, the guy's an idiot!
OK, I am curious. I was intending at some point to use their software for computer control, is there a reason not to?
Quote from: Chris Morris on May 25, 2021, 08:25:42 AM
Quote from: Bigmac on May 25, 2021, 07:38:29 AM
Quote from: Chris Morris on May 23, 2021, 12:42:42 PM
Quote from: Ben A on May 23, 2021, 11:52:38 AM
Quote from: Chris Morris on May 23, 2021, 11:45:44 AM
I remain totally underwhelmed by sound from locos in both N and 00 - its more of an annoying tinny rattle than a proper sound experience, and as for the representation of a diesel horn - please just don't bother.
Hi Chris,
I used to think this too, but I was recently (well, a few months ago) watching some locomotives puttering about and they were some distance away, probably the equivalent to how far - in scale terms - we are from our N gauge models at 'normal viewing distances.' I noticed that the treble sounds travelled far more than the bass sounds, meaning that from a distance locomotives *do* sound more tinny.
Having said that, my hearing isn't the best (as anyone who knows me will testify!) so it might just've been me!
cheers
Ben A.
But with a recording of a real train played through a trackside speaker I can make the floor shake! For some reason doing this doesn't make me very popular with others in the household.
sounds better than in loco speakers--must be a lot less expensive too. Whats not to like ?
One thing folk might not like is that it is more of a watching the trains go by than a driving the train experience. Having said that, as someone who has been on a diesel driving experience day (expensive but worth every penny), the sound from a chip in a loco isn't a lot like the sound inside the cab. My whole sound set up cost me nothing at all. I used a free app on my PC to edit sound files to the correct length, a free soundpad app on my smartphone so I can select and play the sound I want at a touch of the screen and a decent bluetooth speaker that I already had.
Without giving too much away the last minute of my Dawlish Warren video for the NGF virtual event gives an idea of what can be achieved with a smartphone soundpad and a decent speaker under the layout. I did edit the sounds onto the video when making this but I can and do do it when running trains. Not for everyone but it does it for me when I am in that sort of mood.
This is a video of the passing sounds used on my last layout. This time the sound is as recorded when videoing with my smartphone. I was controlling the trains, pressing the buttons for the sound and filming all at the same time! Who says men can't multi-task?
For best results play this video loud through a decent sound system, phone speakers just don't replicate the experience. They are too small - like the speakers in N gauge locos.
i did just that--cast your youtube clip to my TV--then sound out through theater system. Shook the room !
Quote from: cutting42 on May 25, 2021, 06:17:05 PM
Quote from: Fardap on May 25, 2021, 12:21:53 PM
Quote from: stevewalker on May 25, 2021, 12:17:00 PM
It is easy enough to read the DCC data that is being sent to the tracks, so it should be simple enough to implement a sound system that responds just as an in-loco sound decoder would, but for the sound system to be stationary, attached to decent sized speakers and to be able to respond to and produce sounds for multiple addresses at the same time. Much easier than trying to squeeze sound into small locos, cheaper when you have many locos and able to adjust or mute the volume of all locos at once if needed.
A more advanced version could use position feedback of the locos to "follow" a loco around using quad speakers and could also adjust (due to knowing location) for working hard uphill, coasting down, etc.
Am sure I saw a system that was like this, with discrete speakers around the layout and matched position to loco, also played ambient sounds on another channel through all speakers. Might have been a dream though... or just a conversation with someone!
Yes the Freiwald 4D sound system https://www.freiwald.com/pages/sound.htm (https://www.freiwald.com/pages/sound.htm)
Same company that make the Train controller computer control software
Yes that was it someone I visited had the train control and sound from them I think - certainly I have seen the website before.
Have to say rather annoying looking at the 'pricing' that UK is the most expensive option on there at $180 (not sure why it is shown as USD) most others are $149 or €117 it would seem... it's like Eurovision all over again :smiley-laughing:
Quote from: njee20 on May 25, 2021, 10:08:22 PM
I wouldn't give them a penny of my money, the guy's an idiot!
@njee20 (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=1147) I think that statement requires some clarification please.
Herr Freiwald has a long history of extreme volatilty and unreasonable business practices. He refused to ship to any US state which voted for Trump. Upon the Brexit referendum result he increased fees to the UK (for a download product). In response to one particualrly prolific user of TrainController saying how he often showed it to visitors at exhibitions, he was told he needed to purchase a retailer licence, and was threatened with having his licence cancelled, rendering the layout inoperable.
He has a history of refusing to resolve issues people have with the software. He bans any users from the Freiwald forum if they criticise the product or ask awkward questions. A lot of users say they only use it because they've invested so much.
I guess the sound product is probably quite low risk, but I would not expect any sort of follow up or aftersales, and like I say, I wouldn't give him a penny, mainly on principle!
Edit: tagging @cutting42 (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=1911) as I missed your quote pertaining to this! I'd implore you to look at alternative software like Itrain. It's not quite as well featured, but they are innovating more, and the chance of your layout suddenly being bricked by the whims of one man are markedly less!
Thanks, Nick,
Sounds like someone to swerve then
Quote from: njee20 on May 26, 2021, 11:55:16 AM
Herr Freiwald has a long history of extreme volatilty and unreasonable business practices. He refused to ship to any US state which voted for Trump. Upon the Brexit referendum result he increased fees to the UK (for a download product). In response to one particualrly prolific user of TrainController saying how he often showed it to visitors at exhibitions, he was told he needed to purchase a retailer licence, and was threatened with having his licence cancelled, rendering the layout inoperable.
He has a history of refusing to resolve issues people have with the software. He bans any users from the Freiwald forum if they criticise the product or ask awkward questions. A lot of users say they only use it because they've invested so much.
I guess the sound product is probably quite low risk, but I would not expect any sort of follow up or aftersales, and like I say, I wouldn't give him a penny, mainly on principle!
Edit: tagging @cutting42 (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=1911) as I missed your quote pertaining to this! I'd implore you to look at alternative software like Itrain. It's not quite as well featured, but they are innovating more, and the chance of your layout suddenly being bricked by the whims of one man are markedly less!
That clarifies the bizarre pricing regime then... hates the UK so charges them more... maybe he was in charge of collating Eurovision votes... ;)
Does sound a risk based on those rather odd activities, certainly doesn't sound like good business sense.
Don't know if this is the right place for this comment but here goes, I ordered a 3D print of a GT3 from Shapeways and somehow got lost in transit, I then contacted their Customer Services and they reprinted and I had a replacement within 3 days then the lost one turned up but was slightly damaged then offered to return the model but was told I could keep them both with an apology for the inconvenience it had caused, I wish every supplier could adopt the same level of service, 10 out of 10 in my eyes
Quote from: njee20 on May 26, 2021, 11:55:16 AM
Herr Freiwald has a long history of extreme volatilty and unreasonable business practices. He refused to ship to any US state which voted for Trump. Upon the Brexit referendum result he increased fees to the UK (for a download product). In response to one particualrly prolific user of TrainController saying how he often showed it to visitors at exhibitions, he was told he needed to purchase a retailer licence, and was threatened with having his licence cancelled, rendering the layout inoperable.
He has a history of refusing to resolve issues people have with the software. He bans any users from the Freiwald forum if they criticise the product or ask awkward questions. A lot of users say they only use it because they've invested so much.
I guess the sound product is probably quite low risk, but I would not expect any sort of follow up or aftersales, and like I say, I wouldn't give him a penny, mainly on principle!
Edit: tagging @cutting42 (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=1911) as I missed your quote pertaining to this! I'd implore you to look at alternative software like Itrain. It's not quite as well featured, but they are innovating more, and the chance of your layout suddenly being bricked by the whims of one man are markedly less!
Thanks for the feedback. I had a very old version of RR&Co (5.8 I think) and had a play probably 15 years ago and liked what I saw. I had always intended purchasing a legit version once I got into layout construction but life keeps getting in the way. I am not especially invested in RR&Co time wise and have not bought anything so far so your advice is well timed. Seems a shame and a rather odd way of running a business, maybe it is more of a hobby, in which case probably best not to spend time and effort on it.
Yes that's another concern, I believe he's getting rather older, and has shown no indication of handing the business (which is very much a one-man band) on to anyone else, so I'd expect support to cease suddenly and irretrievably!
I agree it's a shame, there was a long running thread on RMWeb with all of the insights. It also appeared to be the de facto layout operating software, but given the sums involved and the headaches if it all fell apart, I'd avoid!
Quote from: east anglian on May 26, 2021, 01:37:05 PM
Don't know if this is the right place for this comment but here goes, I ordered a 3D print of a GT3 from Shapeways and somehow got lost in transit, I then contacted their Customer Services and they reprinted and I had a replacement within 3 days then the lost one turned up but was slightly damaged then offered to return the model but was told I could keep them both with an apology for the inconvenience it had caused, I wish every supplier could adopt the same level of service, 10 out of 10 in my eyes
repost / move it here?
https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?board=136.0 (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?board=136.0)
https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?board=19.0 (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?board=19.0)
The hardware may be fairly cheap(*) and getting cheaper but the actual sound file work is not trivial.
It's really hard to get good clean sounds to mix, and if they are of heritage equipment you've got to work with the owner of the locomotive to have any chance of getting good samples. Worse yet in many cases you can't do that for higher speeds except on railtour events because the locomotives live on light railway style lines with a 25mph limit. If you licence old recordings you've got licensing fees to pay - and a model railway at a show is a public performance so you need public performance rights for the recordings in decoders. All this takes a stupid amount of work because copyright clearing and copyright law in the UK is basically broken by design.
Sound is (pardon the pun) largely about volume. You've got to split those up front costs across the fraction of OO modellers that care about sound, and the almost irrelevant number of N gauge people who do.
In terms of quality I tend to agree that speakers under the layout work better for a lot of railway sound, especially on a smaller layout. Bass is very hard in OO, tricky in N and really you have to go to O Gauge to get good sound (at which point you also get buffers, coupling clang and other stuff for real).
Doing stereo isn't that difficult either. and JMRI supports a lot of audio functionality including mixing in stationary sources based on position, and the virtual sound decoder function, so you can pair your loco DCC with an imaginary sound decoder that is actually in the PC or PI running the layout. It also supports moving the sound around using digitrax transponding or generic occupancy sensors if you have a bigger layout and want the sound to track around.
You can also turn it the other way up where trains are driven to the recordings of the real thing rather than try and mix new sound to match the movement.
Alan
(*) unless the chip shortage starts to bite the components in decoders anyway, then good luck getting anything for 18 months 8)
Thanks Railgun for the transferring my post
I don't think he did, just pointed out two places it would be better placed.
Well someone did and I thank them
Here's an example of re-tooling, limited production runs, potential demand, taxes, fees and potentially trade tariffs affecting product prices - nothing to do with model railways, but I think illustrates the point nicely.
When I moved to the USA I was astonished how much cheaper cars were relative to their UK counterparts; I'm talking about globally available brands like Ford, GM, Honda, Nissan and European manufacturers. The sheer volume of car sales in the US allows dealers to cut margins and still run a sound business. Government-imposed fees and taxes are also much lower.
One example, and I picked this because it's as close to apples-to-apples as you can get. GM, under the Chevy brand, launched the 2020 Corvette in the UK with available right-hand drive. The price of exactly the same car - same trim package, same add-ons has an MSRP in the USA of $76,000 and a list price in the UK of £81,700 which translates to $115,600 at current exchange rates. Pretty much exactly the same car other than where the driver sits, but almost $60,000 more expensive than in the USA. At that price, it would not sell here. The smaller production run for RHD sets price. Corvette buyers aren't being ripped off in the UK; they're paying market price for an in-demand product.
On the real railway, RC&W went out of business because of the Hastings Line CL33's which were ordered. The cost of retooling for a tiny production run didn't make economic sense and the company went under because of that decision.
On the flip side to @LASteve (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=6889) 's comments.
When we moved here from the UK we bought a new house from a developer, so we got to choose everything.
At the carpet shop we were happy to see that US prices for good quality Axminster carpet was roughly the same as in the UK so we asked for a quote, that's when we realised that the prices quoted in the US were per square foot not per square yard!!!!!
Imported wool carpets are 10 times the price because of tariffs.
John P
One thing that has always puzzled me with the cost of sound decoders is, I can buy a Zimo with sounds produced by a UK sound producer for £99 but if I want the same decoder blank, it still costs £99.
If I blow up my decoder I could get it replaced for £15, am sure they will not be replacing it at a loss.
Some things don't add up in the sound world.
Still prices will always be high because model rail is such a small market, when it comes to mass production, if they were able to sell millions of them prices would tumble, because the Chinese would then make and sell the decoders.
Bye
This Atlas including sound is well priced @ approx £140, hmm tempting :)
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/303996617951?hash=item46c79c44df:g:~IQAAOSwgm5eB-mD (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/303996617951?hash=item46c79c44df:g:~IQAAOSwgm5eB-mD)
UK import vat at 20% applies unless you are lucky, so far my German imports since Brexit have been tariff free.
Sound is a great reason to upgrade to dcc apart from the independent loco control on the same track.
Quite like Broadway Ltd's enabled driver English chat banter or station announcements on F19 but I'm not sure if Atlas support this?
It's not about what is "enabled" it's about what is configured as part of the sound file, which will not be about the manufacturer unless they're comissioning the sound project and look for homogeny across their stock, which I'd not really expect.
I personally don't like gimicks around 'banter', toilet announcements, birdsong or anything like that. I want start up, engine sounds, horn, brakes, maybe some door/station noise and that's it!
Quote from: jpendle on May 27, 2021, 01:00:50 AM
On the flip side to @LASteve (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=6889) 's comments.
When we moved here from the UK we bought a new house from a developer, so we got to choose everything.
At the carpet shop we were happy to see that US prices for good quality Axminster carpet was roughly the same as in the UK so we asked for a quote, that's when we realised that the prices quoted in the US were per square foot not per square yard!!!!!
Imported wool carpets are 10 times the price because of tariffs.
John P
That explains the absence of shag pile under the railway in the 'shed'.
Quote from: emjaybee on May 27, 2021, 02:08:12 PM
Quote from: jpendle on May 27, 2021, 01:00:50 AM
On the flip side to @LASteve (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=6889) 's comments.
When we moved here from the UK we bought a new house from a developer, so we got to choose everything.
At the carpet shop we were happy to see that US prices for good quality Axminster carpet was roughly the same as in the UK so we asked for a quote, that's when we realised that the prices quoted in the US were per square foot not per square yard!!!!!
Imported wool carpets are 10 times the price because of tariffs.
John P
That explains the absence of shag pile under the railway in the 'shed'.
Too easy to lose stuff to the Carpet Monster then :uneasy: