anybody else seen this,
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8660069/Military-chiefs-draw-plans-scrap-Britains-tanks.html (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8660069/Military-chiefs-draw-plans-scrap-Britains-tanks.html)
sent to me by a mate ..
why not go the whole hog, give the infantry catapults [gases from rifles damage the environment] and have them drive around in electric versions of snatch landrovers...
must be at least one charging point in afghan.
nothing, of course, about getting rid of politicians armoured limos and multiple vehicle bodyguard teams.
nice to know they have their priorities right, cause the sure as hell won't stop sending our forces into wars when it suits their publicity campaigns.
If you don't have a blank cheque or magic money tree then you have to decide what is most important - getting rid of MBTs that are rarely used (and might require eventual replacement) might make sense if the money is used for something that is more use to the armed forces.
I don't think you can say investment hasn't been made into the forces eg aircraft carriers, f35, trident replacement etc - whether the priorities are right is a different question.
Its a defense budget,not a budget for toys to go poking our noses into other countries business or getting involve in other country's battles.Get rid of the lot,become a demilitarised country,no one wants to invade us as we got sweet fa worth having.
Costa Rica has no military whatsoever.
They do have poisonous tree frogs though....
What's this got to do with N gauge???
Quote from: mokjumbo on August 25, 2020, 06:23:49 PM
What's this got to do with N gauge???
nothing, hence it's in the 'general discussion' thread deah
Quote from: mokjumbo on August 25, 2020, 06:23:49 PM
What's this got to do with N gauge???
Have you ever tried to model an N gauge tree frog?
Its a lot easier to model a tank.
Quote from: Bob G on August 25, 2020, 06:28:23 PM
Have you ever tried to model an N gauge tree frog?
Its a lot easier to model a tank.
The problem is getting the poison to scale.....
Quote from: red_death on August 25, 2020, 04:57:41 PM
If you don't have a blank cheque or magic money tree then you have to decide what is most important - getting rid of MBTs that are rarely used (and might require eventual replacement) might make sense if the money is used for something that is more use to the armed forces.
I don't think you can say investment hasn't been made into the forces eg aircraft carriers, f35, trident replacement etc - whether the priorities are right is a different question.
like we really needed 2 x aircraft carriers to defend ourselves !
let's be honest, our politicians, like all of their ilke, have delusions of grandure, but are not willing to actually fund them properly.
it's all on the cheap, and the poor bloddy infantry etc are the ones who pay the baill.
we used to have a great military medical support service, but now its a wing at an NHS hospital, most medical staff were made redundant, now reserves who normally work in the NHS,
military hospitals have been closed and sold off, and don't start me on the so called 'military covenant', that party after party have ignored and abused.
Quoteso why do we have a semi continuous stream of RIBs headings across the channel
To escape from countrys that the uk has either openly or covertly been involved in changing the regime because it dosnt fit "our" agenda.Often said countrys were fairly stable until outsiders tried to help.
Let's be sensible about this, this is not going to happen anytime soon.
Challenger 2 is about to go through a major upgrade, also Warrior & CVR (T)'s are about to be replaced by Ajax and Boxer. It was looked at replacing Challenger with a heavy version of Ajax.
Look where we've come to with Aircraft, when I joined the RAF in 1983, we had at least 7 different types of fighter/bomber aircraft, now we have 2 types of multi role aircraft. I suspect that eventually they will be replaced by drones of some sort.
Cheers
Neal
A lot of wokeness in replies to this thread. No win situation @class37025 (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=311) we all know who will be first to complain when we cannot defend a minor, unimportant dependency like, say, The Falklands ::)
when we cannot defend a minor, unimportant dependency like, say, The Falklands ::)
of course, we will have the a/c carriers, and their F-35s, assuming the computers will allow the engines to start :'(
but what chances of anything else.
could we manage the escorts for the carriers ?
probably not, what have we got now, about 20 combat vessels ?
no chance of repeating the Black Buck missions, no Vulcans or Victors any more, nor Nimrods, and even with '10s and Tristars, nothing able to do the Vulcan's work.
plus, at one time the forces owned their equipment, probably now on contract hire from Hertz and Boeing, pay per mile and clauses that say you can't do anything dangerous :veryangry:
governments / politicians need to decide ..
either
we are a small, bankrupt island with no influence which does not need much more than a self defence force, mostly coastal patrol against RIBs and foreign fishermen
or
we aim to be a world power and need to have the resources and backbone to do so, which requires the will to fund / equip and support our forces
they cannot have it both ways, no matter how much they think they can.
Quote from: Calnefoxile on August 25, 2020, 06:57:28 PM
Let's be sensible about this, this is not going to happen anytime soon.
Challenger 2 is about to go through a major upgrade, also Warrior & CVR (T)'s are about to be replaced by Ajax and Boxer. It was looked at replacing Challenger with a heavy version of Ajax.
Look where we've come to with Aircraft, when I joined the RAF in 1983, we had at least 7 different types of fighter/bomber aircraft, now we have 2 types of multi role aircraft. I suspect that eventually they will be replaced by drones of some sort.
Cheers
Neal
Lets face it, we have a couple of generations now who didn't live through Aden, Nigerian Civil War, The Cold Wars, The Falklands, Gulf War 1, Lebanon, Bosnia, Desert Fox, Kosovo, Sierra Leone, Afghanistan, Iraq, Lybia and Syria. These are just some of the conflicts that our political leaders, of all colours, have involved UK service personnel in in my lifetime, for some of that time frame I was in uniform too.
They don't get it, my current boss has no idea that the reason he has the freedom to spout his anti war, anti establishment views is because a small number of under supported & under funded men and women stepped forward to support the freedoms we take for granted (that includes attached civilian staff) and for what, some woke lawyer taking them to court for doing the job the politicians ordered them to do!
Lets get one thing straight, no right thinking individual wants war, nobody really wants to lose lives and spend billions of pounds/dollars/euros etc defending what we take for granted but, unfortunately, there are those out there who are hell bent on ensuring we don't spend that budget on out NHS, our education, improved infrastructure and, therefore, we have to spend money of the likes of multi role aircraft, more agile ground attack vehicles and comprehensive (if civvie built) naval support.
You know as well as I do @Calnefoxile (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=619) that technology moves apace and that the MOD will never fund service personnel training to suitably keep up with it so all their civvy mates get nice big juicy contracts and that useless zobs get
promoted to MOD desk jobs to perpetuate the farce.
To clarify, no right thinking individual wants war, but the woke generation have to understand that without a military deterrent, their views would find them disappeared, ad infinitum.
To be brutally honest, the current pandemic has had a massive effect on the ability of the warmongers to perpetuate their evil, so that is a good thing. Unfortunately it also gives them time to build up their arsenals so they are ready whenever we return to 'normal', and don't think the armament manufacturers have stopped selling their wares throughout all of this. So once Covid is done, you had better get your tin hats on because it will be like nothing you have seen before.
End of broadcast
Calm down everyone - NGF is a refuge from the real world, so take the invective to Twitter please or we will lock this thread
NickR
QuoteAden, Nigerian Civil War, The Cold Wars, The Falklands, Gulf War 1, Lebanon, Bosnia, Desert Fox, Kosovo, Sierra Leone, Afghanistan, Iraq, Lybia and Syria
And how many of those were to defend the uk or dependancy instead of playing with the big boys to make us look hard? We cant even be constant on whose an ally and whos a threat.
Quote from: Calnefoxile on August 25, 2020, 06:57:28 PM
Let's be sensible about this, this is not going to happen anytime soon.
Challenger 2 is about to go through a major upgrade, also Warrior & CVR (T)'s are about to be replaced by Ajax and Boxer. It was looked at replacing Challenger with a heavy version of Ajax.
Look where we've come to with Aircraft, when I joined the RAF in 1983, we had at least 7 different types of fighter/bomber aircraft, now we have 2 types of multi role aircraft. I suspect that eventually they will be replaced by drones of some sort.
Cheers
Neal
sorry, but I refer you to Nimrod MR4.
billions spent, simulator built and training crews, first a/c in service, and suddenly stopped, built a/c scrapped with indecent haste, probably to prevent any reversal of the decision, and now a less effective a/c bought at increased cost from out of our country.
BUY BRITISH seems to have a nasty sound to it to our politicians, of ALL parties.
I remember watching the series on TV on 617 sdn training on the F-35s in the states, and the pilot who couldn't log into the a/c computer, so couldn't do anything.
just what you need when the hordes are heading your way.
one government after another has screwed our forces, and I doubt that they will change in the future, whatever colour they are.
I was proud to serve, as were my father and uncles, but would I do so now, seeing how they are 'valued' by our politicians, no chance.
I'm sure the rot set in when it became the norm that politicians had never had any military experience, just as they have no experience of health, finance, or any other department.
if, by some chance someone gets appointed to a position in a field they have experience of, and understand, and start to 'make waves' ie stand up for what is needed, as did the female defence minister [ex forces] a short while ago, they don't last long.
you only need to look at the fact that we can't even control our own coastline against illegal immigrants to despair of our being able to defend ourselves against a determined attacker.
what use are multi billion pound a/c carriers and computerised multi roll a/c when we can't even afford to effectively deploy a few patrol boats.
I deleted a post I'd written as I don't want to get drawn into this but there is a certain level of inconsistency here - on the one hand you decry the possible loss of MBTs and on the other you complain that aircraft carriers and F35s have been procured. You can't have it both ways!
There's of course a major factor that is being missed here which is that replacement kit is becoming ever more advanced and ultimately expensive. The Vulcans that my dad served on cost £750k! Modern day equivalent £18.8m - that doesn't even get you a quarter of a eurofighter or f35.
PS MBTs aren't much use stopping desperate refugees in the channel and even if they were it would be a completely immoral use of armed forces - there are always choices to be made but mixing completely different topics doesn't help the discussion. We still spend more than any NATO member except the USA on defence. Whether that money is well spent is a different matter.
Who exactly are we defending ourselves against? :hmmm:
Quote from: Railwaygun on August 25, 2020, 09:28:45 PM
Calm down everyone - NGF is a refuge from the real world, so take the invective to Twitter please or we will lock this thread
NickR
Best delete the General Discussion thread then @Railwaygun (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=941) ;)
Quote from: red_death on August 25, 2020, 11:06:13 PM
PS MBTs aren't much use stopping desperate refugees in the channel and even if they were it would be a completely immoral use of armed forces
I could not have phrased this better. Thank you.
If anyone thinks people fleeing a brutal civil war (where the very concept of innocent lives means less than nothing) are going to be alarmed by our highly trained professional navy, they're deluding themselves.
@class37025 (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=311), the Nimrod MR4 is a particularly sorry story. But I reject your notion that the armed forces are screwed. Not a single person in the army, navy, or air force is a conscript. They are all there because they chose to be. They're doing a job, and just like me (a science teacher) sometimes we have to make do with the tools we're given. Why the Nimrod MR4 wasn't up to the job, I cannot say -- and I strongly suspect we'll never know until after the relevant documents are declassified. The cynic in me would assume pressure from the Americans to buy their aircraft and systems.
Cheers, NeMo
the daily mail is in competition with others, for number odf words i think
but i confess to be a 5 days a week reader
i bow to my low number learned friend
my son is a chef and sergeant inthe raf
7 tours in falklands adn doesnt know why, but does not eat eggs when there?
was junior at gleneagles at least i could stay for £65 a night some times
no helicopter free trips, i did fly a tigermoth on my 60th
respect to all
The enemy of the working class travels by private jet, not migrant dinghy.
Quote from: Philip. on August 26, 2020, 07:53:18 AM
Who exactly are we defending ourselves against? :hmmm:
Erm..
the Russians? currently conducting a fair few provocative actions aimed in our direction..
or the Chinese? currently embarking on several actions of expansionism..
Or the Argentinians? currently stepping up the rhetoric about reclaiming the Falkland islands to distract their populace from a failing economy..
plus several other countries supporting and aiding terrorism..
Hope that helps.
Cheers
Mark
I think the issue is utility and survive-ability.
Utility in that there is little point in building kit that will just get stored unless a serious tank war breaks out, as it has no other peacetime role, and survive-ability where in almost all scenarios where you need MBTs they wont last the first 48 hours in a conflict, taken out by much lower cost weapon systems. In short the anti tank man portable weaponry has far outpaced the tank armour technology.
After all the tank was the answer to the trench warfare and evolved to fight over vast areas of countryside, Kursk being their high point, but just as we no longer need battleships we really don't need MBTs. They are no longer the best bang for your buck.
I smiled at the comment about modern politicians not having military experience. It reminded me of the passage in Edward Heaths memoirs reflecting that in his cabinet every member had done military service with the exception of Margaret thatcher, although on reflection he thought she would have made an excellent tail gunner.
Quote from: scruff on September 01, 2020, 10:35:22 PM
Quote from: Philip. on August 26, 2020, 07:53:18 AM
Who exactly are we defending ourselves against? :hmmm:
Erm..
the Russians? currently conducting a fair few provocative actions aimed in our direction..
or the Chinese? currently embarking on several actions of expansionism..
Or the Argentinians? currently stepping up the rhetoric about reclaiming the Falkland islands to distract their populace from a failing economy..
plus several other countries supporting and aiding terrorism..
Hope that helps.
Cheers
Mark
Erm...not really,but thanks for trying
In a recent Q&A session the curator of the Tank Museum said not to read to much in to this a upgrade package had already been designed for the Challenger and a company chosen to complete this and this unattributed leak may just be a tactic that has been used in the past to raise awareness.
https://youtu.be/8vDdOgG5CTc