it may just be because I'm paranoid ....
but
the "NHS" want's me to download an'app' onto my smart-phone so they can track my contacts ....
a. I don't have a smart-phone so that's one problem ...
but for those that do have ...
you log in and say 'I have symptoms'
and they start phoning anyone you have been in contact with ?
so the "NHS" has monitored you're location, and everyone else who has joined up, so they can see where you have been, who you have met etc....
1984 or what ?
and who is to say that once Covid -19 has gone, they will delete your info ?
they are out to get me, and you, and you :'(
This was introduced in Australia a week or so ago. So far there are well over 2.5 million downloads.
I can see benefits and possible downsides. I have not downloaded it myself as of yet.
Well I guess they need to try something to support some sort of trace and trace (sounds like a parcel courier :D )
I don't have a smart phone either, I've no interest in having one despite being a software developer and therefore supposedly "into IT and tech" . Work actually made some security changes not so long ago and assumed everyone had a smartphone for authentication.... er nope :doh:
And who is to say that some shady lot are not already tracking you now?
well, there's been this van parked across the road the last few days :hmmm:
Quote from: class37025 on May 03, 2020, 11:59:51 PM
well, there's been this van parked across the road the last few days :hmmm:
Yeah, sorry about that. I'll get it shifted soon.
The cat detector van! Hope you don't end up with Eric the half a bee in your garden!
Quotewell, there's been this van parked across the road the last few days
Not Flowers By Irene by any chance?
As for the app it locates you by gps.so what happens in gps blackspots,ive used gps on mobiles all over the uk and theres many places ,especially built up areas were it dont work,or its out by a good few feet,and how does it know there wasnt a bus or wall between you and the possible case you just walked passed?
Quote from: Bealman on May 03, 2020, 10:15:54 PM
This was introduced in Australia a week or so ago. So far there are well over 2.5 million downloads.
I can see benefits and possible downsides. I have not downloaded it myself as of yet.
George, just to put your mind at rest,
With the Aussie one they can only take the data from your phone if you answer yes to the question once asked to by a health worker (your doctor or a nurse in hospital), if you answer no it stays on your phone. As an aside I used to work with some of the people who tested this and if they are happy with it I am.
Google knows more about you and your movements by default than this app will ever try and ascertain.
Ironically when I tried to put it on my phone I was rejected as the phone was too old. So guess what I am about to get a new phone. I think this is an invaluable tool for all of us to get out of this lockdown.
cheers
Graham
should also add Apple to the Google remark, they both monitor everything with the reasoning being to make your experience with them better, hmmm!
Quote from: class37025 on May 03, 2020, 10:07:57 PM
a. I don't have a smart-phone so that's one problem ...
but for those that do have ...
you log in and say 'I have symptoms'
and they start phoning anyone you have been in contact with ?
I think the idea is that the system sends messages out automagically to any others app users who got close enough, whilst the phoning is a manual method for those without either a mobile phone or the app.
Quote from: themadhippy on May 04, 2020, 01:25:25 AM
As for the app it locates you by gps.so what happens in gps blackspots,ive used gps on mobiles all over the uk and theres many places ,especially built up areas were it dont work,or its out by a good few feet,and how does it know there wasnt a bus or wall between you and the possible case you just walked passed?
If there was an obstruction a) you couldn't catch the virus through an obstruction, b) you'd have been unlikely to be within 2 metres anyway and c) the bluetooth would be unlikely to pick up the other mobile anyway.
I don't think that it uses the GPS for contact tracing and alerts anyway - just if it can make bluetooth contact with another mobile running the app.
I guess it must work on a similar basis to google maps where it knows the road congestion hot spots via peoples phone signals at a given time.
Paranoia Rules!
In short:
When it detects another phone with the app in range, The App on your phone logs (on your phone) the user ID from the app on the other phone and a timestamp.
No 'Location' data is stored.
This is automatically deleted from you phone after a period (not certain - seen 42 days and 56 days specified)
IF you report having symptoms, AND flag that in the app, a message is pushed to the app on other users phones advising them to isolate / seek testing.
No Information Governance issues - you have the choice to download the app or not, and your personal information isn't stored anywhere, only a user ID unique to the App.
Deleted every 21 days here on a rolling roster.
Quote from: Graham on May 04, 2020, 02:17:31 AM
should also add Apple to the Google remark, they both monitor everything with the reasoning being to make your experience with them better, hmmm!
However with Apple, you have to explicitly opt-in and the data sent is stripped of any sort of information that you personally identify you. It's not in their interest to abuse your personal info (quite the opposite).
Likewise, with the Apple-Google contact tracing API, it doesn't send any data that can be used to identify you and nothing is stored on any servers, government or otherwise.
The NHS and UK Government both have very poor histories in terms of looking after patient data (whole DVD sets of them going walkabout, chunks of patient info being sold to Amazon) and the brother of the chap being paid to write the NHS contact tracing app was involved in all the Facebook shenanigans over Brexit. So I wouldn't trust it at all.
Because I used to work in a job which required me to think the unthinkable;
Download the app so the Government is happy and,
turn off my Bluetooth so it never picks up a signal from an "infected" persons phone.
Knowing NHS management as I used to do (Full praise for the frontline staff mind), I'll lay money that they either haven't thought of this or believe people won't do it.
Quote from: PLD on May 04, 2020, 07:56:57 AM
Paranoia Rules!
In short:
When it detects another phone with the app in range, The App on your phone logs (on your phone) the user ID from the app on the other phone and a timestamp.
No 'Location' data is stored.
This is automatically deleted from you phone after a period (not certain - seen 42 days and 56 days specified)
IF you report having symptoms, AND flag that in the app, a message is pushed to the app on other users phones advising them to isolate / seek testing.
So what happens then if like me you have Google timeline turned on then? I'm able to view my stats back to 2016 and view everywhere I have been!
Ohhh this is gonna be interesting.
Philosophy and big brother watch vs the need to get out of lockdown.
To lay my cards on the table:
Nothing "opt in" on my iPhone is turned on. I drive my wife nuts by leaving locations services off until I need the navigation app.
Bluetooth is normally on, especially these days when using Bluetooth headphones whilst working.
I firmly believe Facebook, Google, Apple etc all play fast and loose with data but use them all anyway. I don't make life easy for them, but at the end of the day I have nothing to hide so if they want to see months and months of N gauge / Railway related searches and posts so be it.
Besides, GCHQ have technology we can't even conceive of. I would be amazed if "they" couldn't record any phone conversation they fancied.
That all being said, based on what I have read about the NHS App being proposed / tested:
It needs Bluetooth on.
It doesn't need GPS.
It works be anon "handshaking" between Bluetooth enabled, App installed phones who come close enough to each other.
Users who develop symptoms fill in a questionnaire on the app.
An "amber" alert then goes to all users who "handshook" with the phone in question within a certain time.
This alert goes "red" when the infection is confirmed.
As it stands I am probably going to get it and use it.
I hope guidelines are well established with employers for example, as it is quite conceivable an employee will be "amber" alerted multiple times and therefore have to take action. For me, so long as that employee is allowed to keep working from home (until they get ill), shouldn't be a problem.
Skyline2uk
Mobile signal where I live is just crap so why would I buy a smart phone when I can't even use the basic jobbie I have anyway? ::) I use a mobile to phone and text - period, end of.
One happy Luddite :)
Quote from: Newportnobby on May 04, 2020, 11:20:13 AM
Mobile signal where I live is just crap so why would I buy a smart phone when I can't even use the basic jobbie I have anyway? ::) I use a mobile to phone and text - period, end of.
One happy Luddite :)
By some reports non-smart phone users could be offered a tag....you ever been tagged Nobby? ;) :P
Skyline2uk
I use my wife's cast-off 5-year-old smartphone on the cheapest tariff I can find. My data limit is very small by today's standards, location services is always off, and bluetooth is off most of the time because it gobbles battery power. I suspect a lot of tech-averse people leave bluetooth off too, mainly because they don't know how to switch it on.
I suspect the success of this app is likely to be patchy at best.
Cheers,
Chris
Quote from: Skyline2uk on May 04, 2020, 11:24:38 AM
Quote from: Newportnobby on May 04, 2020, 11:20:13 AM
Mobile signal where I live is just crap so why would I buy a smart phone when I can't even use the basic jobbie I have anyway? ::) I use a mobile to phone and text - period, end of.
One happy Luddite :)
By some reports non-smart phone users could be offered a tag....you ever been tagged Nobby? ;) :P
Skyline2uk
As a cereal offender (I keep biting Shreddies) - yes. I've frequently been tagged :D
:laughabovepost:
Stay well mate
Skyline2uk
Quote from: Newportnobby on May 04, 2020, 11:34:39 AM
I keep biting Shreddies
Not while they're still being worn, I hope? :o
Quote from: tutenkhamunsleeping on May 04, 2020, 11:48:51 AM
Quote from: Newportnobby on May 04, 2020, 11:34:39 AM
I keep biting Shreddies
Not while they're still being worn, I hope? :o
If I was that bendy.......................maybe best if I say no more :zippedmouth: ;)
Quote from: Skyline2uk on May 04, 2020, 10:30:47 AM
Besides, GCHQ have technology we can't even conceive of. I would be amazed if "they" couldn't record any phone conversation they fancied.
There was a (probably apocryphal) story some years ago of someone in a Usenet group saying that he'd come up with a new and interesting encryption algorithm and someone from GCHQ in the group being interested in it. When asking for an email address to send it to, the response was supposedly, "Send it anywhere, we'll see it eventually."
Back to the contact app though. I would have thought that recording the time and location would have been useful. If I were to receive an alert that I had been close to someone who had now been diagnosed with COVID-19, I'd have no idea of where or when and would have to isolate (including from my family - in particular my vulnerable wife) for a fortnight, but if I knew the location, I might be able to determine that it was when I was sat waiting inside my car and that that there was no risk of me having caught it then.
Quote from: Mr Sprue on May 04, 2020, 10:10:33 AM
So what happens then if like me you have Google timeline turned on then? I'm able to view my stats back to 2016 and view everywhere I have been!
That's YOUR CHOICE to have timeline turned on and it's Google storing it with your permission... It has absolutely no relevance to future use of the NHS app...
As a starter, you could join the Kings College App ( 3m users and counting) to help
Them
Plot the current state of the virus .
Help slow the spread of #COVID19 and identify at risk cases sooner by self-reporting your symptoms daily, even if you feel well 🙏. Download the app
https://covid.joinzoe.com/
If you report symptoms, you get an invite for testing ( and some users get invited even if well to sample the possible
Infections pre- symptoms.
king's achievements so far
https://covid.joinzoe.com/blog
Quote from: Newportnobby on May 04, 2020, 11:20:13 AM
Mobile signal where I live is just crap so why would I buy a smart phone when I can't even use the basic jobbie I have anyway? ::) I use a mobile to phone and text - period, end of.
One happy Luddite :)
Sorry Mick you'm only a pseudo Luddite, us real Luddites don't have any mobile phone, pad or tablet, use a land line to phone, no text, no fartbook, nor twatter! I will admit to 2 PCs and a Laptop, all running Win7 pro 64bit with updates turned off.
Quote from: PLD on May 04, 2020, 01:32:07 PM
Quote from: Mr Sprue on May 04, 2020, 10:10:33 AM
So what happens then if like me you have Google timeline turned on then? I'm able to view my stats back to 2016 and view everywhere I have been!
That's YOUR CHOICE to have timeline turned on and it's Google storing it with your permission... It has absolutely no relevance to future use of the NHS app...
Oh okay I've just read this app works via Bluetooth so that blows the Google bit out of the equation doesn't it? FWIW and yes to have google switched IS MY CHOICE, some years back I was arrested and locked up over a weekend for a hit and run I did not commit, had google been around then it would have been a lot easier to prove my innocence!
I think the quote goes: Nothing to hide Nothing to fear!
Quote from: Dorsetmike on May 04, 2020, 02:48:06 PM
Quote from: Newportnobby on May 04, 2020, 11:20:13 AM
Mobile signal where I live is just crap so why would I buy a smart phone when I can't even use the basic jobbie I have anyway? ::) I use a mobile to phone and text - period, end of.
One happy Luddite :)
Sorry Mick you'm only a pseudo Luddite, us real Luddites don't have any mobile phone, pad or tablet, use a land line to phone, no text, no fartbook, nor twatter! I will admit to 2 PCs and a Laptop, all running Win7 pro 64bit with updates turned off.
@Dorsetmike (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=2855)
No pad, no tablet (apart from my meds), landline use only unless I'm out (duh), no farcebook nor the others, 4th hand laptop running XP.
I reckon I'm pretty far up the pseuds ladder :D
I have a friend and his wife who never have flu jabs or anything like that. He is 76 and has a bad back and can hardly walk she has diabetes. He does not have a smart phone she does, will she get the app ? if a jab comes out will they both have this one ?.
If it helps me avoid getting this awfull virus I will have the app if it still works on my old smart phone (Samsung S6), what they on now S20.
Seems many Islanders are not happy about the app! I originate from the I.O.W and still have family there, I spoke to my cousin Jan the other night concerns are, apart from being used as guinea pigs, If people have installed the app they might take for granted that being tracked there is no need to worry so much about abiding the lockdown.
She also mentioned another big worry is many "Overlanders" come here to retire so the island has quite a large elderly population, miss use of the app could put them at a higher risk and in turn increase the infection rate on the island!
Quote from: Newportnobby on May 04, 2020, 11:20:13 AM
Mobile signal where I live is just crap so why would I buy a smart phone when I can't even use the basic jobbie I have anyway? ::) I use a mobile to phone and text - period, end of.
One happy Luddite :)
Same here..
While I am certainly not dismissing the current virus situation as trivial - hell, no!! - I really think the fuss over this app is over the top. As far as personal data on the internet,go, it's out there anyway. Google knows where you are and who you are! Most transactions are reasonably safe. I have never, so far, touch wood, had a problem with an online financial transaction. I'm not saying it doesn't happen or it won't happen to me, it's just that I trust the system.
I have had to change my email address a couple of times, because people on this forum were receiving rubbish stuff, supposedly from me!
I have not downloaded our version of the app (even though five million Aussies have, as I write this), not because I have any particular problem with it data-wise, but I can't really see the point.
But there again, I've never had a flu shot, either. :)
well said,
It seems the data just sits on your phone and gets deleted after a certain number of days. Also, apart from switching off Bluetooth, there doesn't seem to be any user interaction so little to no chance of misuse.
However, my wife and I were playing yesterday (I'm ex Telecoms) and we found we could "see" each other via Bluetooth up to fifty yards away. Hopefully the app will look at signal strength/connection duration to provide some sort of threshold before logging the connection. Otherwise a simple drive down the high street in my car could mean I'm in semi permanent isolation.
@Bealman (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=255) As I have already commented " Nothing to hide, nothing to fear" Good old Google can track me for as long as it wants! ;)
I pass on my older Apple phones to my wife and kids. I leave the "find my phone " enabled so I always know where they are. Really useful when I take my wife to the SALES. I can go for a coffee and know where to find her later. :thumbsup:
It works as well in reverse, she uses the play sound on my phone to tell me when to come and pay. :thumbsdown:
:D
One thought from a Hong Kong friend who travels a lot in China on their tracking apps. If you "don't" then you go to the front of their list as a a person of interest. Anonymity is do as the rest of the herd do.
Via The Register (https://www.theregister.co.uk/):
UK COVID-19 contact-tracing app data may be kept for 'research' after crisis ends, MPs told (https://www.theregister.co.uk/2020/05/04/uk_covid_app_human_rights_parliament/)
...
QuoteWritten by tech arm NHSX, Britain's contact-tracing app breaks with international convention by opting for a centralised model of data collection: all the contact-tracing data is kept under one roof in one central government database.
...
:hmmm: :hmmm: :hmmm:
Personally I think such an app is in principle a good idea, but the practice (and peoples) behind this one is far from convincing.
Hi all,
So the conspiracy theorists will be having a field day for weeks to come on this one, the government know where you are, big brother is here, etc, etc, etc
Lets be frank if you are reading this then you have nothing to fear from this NHS app you already have an electronic signature and as such your info is already out there!!! That's the reality of the modern information led world, so those who think by not down loading the app is keeping themselves hidden truth be told those days are long gone!
What this app does is filter out the cluster for a specific information set to allow the track and trace of any potential further spread of the virus as such hopefully limiting it and maybe just maybe get us out of our prison cells known as home!
Quote from: acko22 on May 05, 2020, 12:04:54 PM
Hi all,
So the conspiracy theorists will be having a field day for weeks to come on this one, the government know where you are, big brother is here, etc, etc, etc
Lets be frank if you are reading this then you have nothing to fear from this NHS app you already have an electronic signature and as such your info is already out there!!! That's the reality of the modern information led world, so those who think by not down loading the app is keeping themselves hidden truth be told those days are long gone!
What this app does is filter out the cluster for a specific information set to allow the track and trace of any potential further spread of the virus as such hopefully limiting it and maybe just maybe get us out of our prison cells known as home!
Absolutely, this is where a little knowledge in the public domain is very dangerous. Those of us who understand what is going on know we have been over a barrel for at least ten years. :goggleeyes:
The only irony of the situation is the government is finally turning out/buying in IT systems that work (ish) and it is happening un-commentated on.
You can't stop people getting emotional about this subject, but it also right that people are allowed to freely express concerns about their privacy without being considered an enemy of the state, anti government, or NHS.
I am happy to comply but I haven't got a problem with those that don't. Personally I doubt there are a significant amount of smart phone users that will make this app useful.
I don't have a problem with the data collection and as mentioned above google maps etc are already doing this anyway.
I feel the problem will be the user as its relies on people using the app correctly. what is to stop people saying they have symptoms and creating false alerts?
Mine will be going off all the time with alerts as I work in a hospital ;D
Quote from: gavin_t on May 05, 2020, 12:45:07 PM
I don't have a problem with the data collection and as mentioned above google maps etc are already doing this anyway.
I feel the problem will be the user as its relies on people using the app correctly. what is to stop people saying they have symptoms and creating false alerts?
Mine will be going off all the time with alerts as I work in a hospital ;D
Guess what, on the lunchtime news they have just said anyone working in a hospital should turn their phone off. There is a genius at work somewhere 8)
Quote from: Snowwolflair on May 05, 2020, 01:01:05 PM
Quote from: gavin_t on May 05, 2020, 12:45:07 PM
I don't have a problem with the data collection and as mentioned above google maps etc are already doing this anyway.
I feel the problem will be the user as its relies on people using the app correctly. what is to stop people saying they have symptoms and creating false alerts?
Mine will be going off all the time with alerts as I work in a hospital ;D
Guess what, on the lunchtime news they have just said anyone working in a hospital should turn their phone off. There is a genius at work somewhere 8)
Proper IT fix that one ;D
Although mine stays on my desk and not with me on the ward anyway.
Let's see what comes out of the IOW trial.
I think the real game changer will be the antibody test if they can get a reliable one into circulation.
Thought this might be of interest.
https://www.wired.co.uk/article/nhs-covid-19-tracking-app-contact-tracing (https://www.wired.co.uk/article/nhs-covid-19-tracking-app-contact-tracing)
Quote from: GrahamB on May 06, 2020, 09:51:07 AM
Thought this might be of interest.
https://www.wired.co.uk/article/nhs-covid-19-tracking-app-contact-tracing (https://www.wired.co.uk/article/nhs-covid-19-tracking-app-contact-tracing)
Thanks for posting this, it makes things a whole lot clearer! ;)
Quote from: GrahamB on May 06, 2020, 09:51:07 AM
Thought this might be of interest.
https://www.wired.co.uk/article/nhs-covid-19-tracking-app-contact-tracing (https://www.wired.co.uk/article/nhs-covid-19-tracking-app-contact-tracing)
And the less fluffy version...
https://www.theregister.co.uk/2020/05/05/uk_coronavirus_app/ (https://www.theregister.co.uk/2020/05/05/uk_coronavirus_app/)