Announcement from Dapol.
Well that sucks, I was looking forward to the Light Pacifics in particular. :(
http://dapol.co.uk/index.php?route=blog%2Fpost&post_id=43#.WMvNx-hskGw.facebook (http://dapol.co.uk/index.php?route=blog%2Fpost&post_id=43#.WMvNx-hskGw.facebook)
Quote
The effects of the decision to leave the EU last June continue, particularly on the devaluation of Sterling and the increase in the general feeling of uncertainty as the actual leave date looms. These effects coupled with the continued inflationary pressures being experienced in China means that the decision to invest in projects and develop new lines is becoming increasingly difficult. Not only is the unit cost of models rising at an alarming rate but the cost of the tooling is also escalating. Tooling prices are now more than double what they were 7 years ago.
As a company we appreciate that this is an increasingly expensive hobby and that the current economic uncertainty threatens discretionary model purchasing. The crunch that we find ourselves in with alarmingly rising costs, dwindling volumes due to higher retail prices being required means we have to be realistic about what we can and cannot develop.
It is my responsibility as MD of Dapol to ensure the company's sustainability and the long term future of the business. Not only do I have a responsibility to our fantastic customer base but I also have a workforce which depends on Dapol's success.
With this predicament at the forefront, the company has to make difficult decisions about our funding and prioritising of projects, especially those that made financial sense when first announced but currently do not. Unfortunately, some previously announced and mooted projects will have to be put on abeyance until the economic conditions become more favourable. This is particularly, but not exclusively the case in N gauge were the small size of the market, the relatively high cost of manufacture and natural cap on retail prices means that returns are least favourable. Projects such as the Class 50, Class 59, prototype HST, Battle of Britain and others are being delayed as result of this. Over the next two weeks we will update our development pages on the website to reflect these decisions, so please look there to find out about any of our projects that are of interest to you.
Coupled with this statement is also an apology from me. Dapol as a company has undoubtedly over announced products in the past which has led to this situation. The tendency to be overly optimistic about development times and unrealistic about what can be achieved has been prevalent. It is our intention that any new models announced from now on will have been researched and developed to an extent that the model will be in store within 14 months of being made public.
It is also our intention to make more products at our own factory in the UK. This is a slow process with huge learning challenges, however we all at Dapol are committed to this and are proud of what we make in our small factory in Chirk.
I thank you all for your patience and understanding
Kind Regards
Joel Bright
MD
If Dapol feel the Light Pacifics won't sell, then N-gauge looks to be in some pretty pretty serious trouble.
Im suprised by the class 50 as i thought that was quite advanced and not too far away. Thats a real shame as i needed quite a few of those. The prototype HST i can understand and to a certain extent the 59 but the Pacific and the 50 are indeed very worrying.
Richard
Hi
Deja vu.
Didn't this last happen with the Pendolino and the 92 in around 2010. They were then quietly binned.
Pity about the prototype HST but after the 4mm one being postponed I half expected this.
Cheers
Paul
Opportunity for a crowdfunded class 50 or 59 maybe?
Is DJM still making a 59 in oo?
Tim
Im glad Ive got my 3D printed Prototype HST even if its the first print and the grilles are not very clearly moulded .
The next print is being modified it might even have provision for etched grilles.
Bob Tidbury
Unfortunately it looks to be increasingly clear that Dapol are focussing on 4mm and 7mm, which is a real pity. I was looking forward to the 59 and prototype HST (though I thought the way Dapol did expressions of interest was doomed to fail (and I gave them suggestions as to how to improve it)).
At least they still seem prepared to re-run their existing N gauge tooling which is something.
Given we've picked up the Pendolino and 92 from Dapol, I wonder what else we could do.
Cheers, Mike
Slightly off topic, more models being produced in their factory in Chirk. That could take several weeks of transit time off of new projects...
How different is the prototype HST to the actual HST? There's some big visual differences such as the front window but in terms of under carriage detail?
A shame but not surprising given the ever rising costs of models and the more modest market size of N gauge. I am surprised by the Class 50 though as I would have thought this one fell in the sweet spot.
Paddy
Quote from: Nik96 on March 17, 2017, 12:57:44 PM
How different is the prototype HST to the actual HST? There's some big visual differences such as the front window but in terms of under carriage detail?
Don't go there, we could fill this board up with detail differences between the two. :) :)
It might be a good project for RevolutioN to pick up though @red_death (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=246) :D :D :D
Cheers
Neal.
Quote from: red_death on March 17, 2017, 12:48:18 PM
Given we've picked up the Pendolino and 92 from Dapol, I wonder what else we could do.
Cheers, Mike
Just thinking the same... with Revolution's approach to new products, there seems to be no danger of producing something that hasn't already been funded, so looking forward to seeing some possible new models.
Would be keen on a class 50 or 2 if that ever happened.
I think it's just a case of being over-cautious rather than complacent. Nice to see an admission at last of "too many announcements" though, maybe the projects they ARE continuing with will progress a little faster now?
Paul
Quote from: Bingley Hall on March 17, 2017, 12:25:18 PM
If Dapol feel the Light Pacifics won't sell, then N-gauge looks to be in some pretty pretty serious trouble.
I suspect Mike is correct. With the merger (or takeover of?) Lion Heart and bringing Richard Webster into the fray it seemed inevitable that the focus for Dapol would change to 00 and particularly 0 where the bigger money seems to be. So more of a business decision that a reflection in the health of the N market quite probably which Bachmann from all accounts think is still growing.
It is then even more fortunate that we have Ben and Mike through REvolutioN pushing the bar higher with their crowdfunded models which it is to be hoped will keep Bachmann pushing up standards too.
Maybe this moratorium on new N products by Dapol will also help the likes of DJM by causing N gauge modellers to re-prioritise the spending of their N Gauge pound.
As to the West Country/BoB, I wonder if Farish will grasp the opportunity, after all this is indeed a versatile and popular model in other scales with many in preservation. Also worth noting that it was in both guises a staple model in the Farish range for many years (if somewhat inaccurately portrayed as both BoB/WC and MN in both streamlined and in streamlined guises.
Roy
Quote from: Bingley Hall on March 17, 2017, 12:25:18 PM
If Dapol feel the Light Pacifics won't sell, then N-gauge looks to be in some pretty pretty serious trouble.
I don't think the sales prospects of the Light Pacifics were the problem.
Dapol announced towards the end of last year that they were having problems with the chassis. They wanted to develop a new drive-train (presumably to catch up with Farish's new coreless drive) and the Bulleids were to be the first to use this. Apparently the disappointment was sufficient to send them back to the drawing board (presumably with the design costs that would entail). I suspect that this is why the Light Pacifics have been parked.
This is a great shame as they could have been released a couple of years ago if Dapol had stuck with their existing cardan-shaft + tender drive arrangement for them. Given the Bulleids have a very enclose cab, this would actually have been less obtrusive than on their GWR locos. IIRC, the CADs for the Light Pacifics were pretty much ready around the time Dave Jones left.
According to Joel on FB the Pacer is well advanced, so it appears to be going ahead (thank goodness!).
Cheers, Mike
Bulleid light pacifics being delayed? Would anyone notice?
I doubt it will happen but I'd love to see Farish pick this up and run with it. There must be a host of the lighter spam can fans so disappointed :unimpressed:
Shame (and a bit of a surprise) about the 50, struggling to be shocked about the other two, although I'd have had several 59s no doubt.
Would love a later-NSE 50, but it would be a 100% rule one purchase. The CJM offering is utterly gorgeous (one of his best IMO), but too expensive for me!
Would be interesting to test the water there I suspect @red_death (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=246)! I guess the obvious 'hurdle' is the re-furbished/original condition, but I suspect it would have broad appeal as a model.
There is no indication on the length of the delays - potentially this could be indefinitely, but anyone jumping in with an alternative needs to be wary of Dapol then bringing forward the model to protect their investment.
Frustrating and messy, best to wait to see what is posted over the next few weeks whilst we punters speculate and hope.
Iain
Quote from: Bingley Hall on March 17, 2017, 12:25:18 PM
If Dapol feel the Light Pacifics won't sell, then N-gauge looks to be in some pretty pretty serious trouble.
Quote from: Roy L S on March 17, 2017, 01:09:51 PM
As to the West Country/BoB, I wonder if Farish will grasp the opportunity
If reports from some retailers are accurate, Farish's MN's are not selling well - being outsold 3 or 4 to 1 by other Pacifics such as the LNER A1s and A2s and LMS Duchesses... Could Dapol have received similar feedback and that have influenced the decision??
IF that is the case, would Farish want to risk another SR Pacific that to the non-Southern modeller is barely different to, and would mostly only abstract sales from their existing model??
Quote from: Karhedron on March 17, 2017, 01:21:52 PM
Dapol announced towards the end of last year that they were having problems with the chassis. They wanted to develop a new drive-train (presumably to catch up with Farish's new coreless drive) and the Bulleids were to be the first to use this. Apparently the disappointment was sufficient to send them back to the drawing board (presumably with the design costs that would entail). I suspect that this is why the Light Pacifics have been parked.
To halt development so soon after that previous announcement does seem a bit strange so I don't think it is the entire reason. I would suspect there is some additional factor such as revised downwards sales projections...
Quote from: PaulCheffus on March 17, 2017, 12:34:10 PM
Pity about the prototype HST but after the 4mm one being postponed I half expected this.
Quote from: red_death on March 17, 2017, 12:48:18 PMI was looking forward to the 59 and prototype HST (though I thought the way Dapol did expressions of interest was doomed to fail
Yes - it was only a matter of how and when they played that one out...
The only realistic way it was ever likely to be delivered was a pre-paid subscription/crowd-funding model. - More Revolution's territory I'd say :hmmm:
Quote from: bluedepot on March 17, 2017, 12:45:18 PM
Opportunity for a crowdfunded class 50 or 59 maybe?
Is DJM still making a 59 in oo?
I'll lay odds on him announcing at least one model off the list be the end of the year... ;)
Sorry, but rather than blame Brexit, world conditions or the state of the pitch at Wembley, shouldn't Dapol admit that their poor quality control has brought them to the point where they're in trouble?
I own 7 Dapol locomotives, 2 Diesel the rest steam. But I've purchased 11. Two of the Steam loco's were bought second hand after seeing them run. take those out of the equation and for new Dapol Steamers, I have returned more than half of the steam locos I've bought new. This is bad business. I certainly won't be buying a new Dapol Steam loco anytime soon, in fact I've cancelled the three I had on pre-order.
Multiply this across the hobby and Dapol announce they have issues? No poo sherlock!
Whilst i'd love to take up the challenge with the 50 or 59 or heck even my baby while i was there the BOB/WC, i wont be.
As mentioned anyone now taking on board those loco's would be taking a big gamble unless they had a factory underwriting the development and tooling and keeping Schtumm until it was ready for production and could show deco samples.
That would be the only way. Otherwise it's too public and could cause a face (or race) off which with 2 identical loco's being made in N, as per the B1 way back in the day, and will leave a poor taste in either parties mouth, and pocket.
Nope, i'm going to plod on, do what i've got on the go and announced, and clear those before i announce anything more (unless it's for 3rd parties and not a DJM funded project).
I'n fact i cannot even see any more crowdfunded enterprises after the King.
Quote from: Byegad on March 17, 2017, 02:11:21 PM
Sorry, but rather than blame Brexit, world conditions or the state of the pitch at Wembley, shouldn't Dapol admit that their poor quality control has brought them to the point where they're in trouble?
I have bought several Dapol locos over the years. Only 1 has failed (overheated motor) which was promptly replaced under warranty. Hattons stated a few years ago that the return rate for Dapol was about the same as for Farish.
Their Class 68s seem to have been selling well (despite the livery issue with the DRS version). I don't think the problem is that Dapol models aren't selling, I think the problem is that they have been operating on thin margins in order to compete with Farish in terms of price. Dapol are much smaller and don't have a big parent like Kader behind them so a change in economic circumstances has hit them disproportionately hard.
The N gauge market is very sensitive to price. O Gauge modellers (and to a lesser extent OO) seem more willing to fork out for models which means Dapol can continue to sell with a a decent margin if they concentrate on larger scales. Don't forget that their main developer, Richard Webster, founded Lionheart trains which specialises in O Gauge models. I think what we are seeing is partly a consequence of the change in staff.
I suspect that both Dapol and Graham Farish have spent a lot of money on detailing their models.
However the last two new locomotives I have bought are from Union Mills. Yes UM locos lack the detailing we see on GF and Dapol locos, but they run from new, without issues and dramas, and continue to do so for many a year. Plus any UM loco will out haul the opposition.
Well, :censored: Dapol. :veryangry:
In a fit of pique I've cancelled my pre order and just bought a Farish MN from Trackshack at a price that beats all and with free postage too.
BR rebuilt 'Spitfire' after the Lewisham crash in 1957 and that was what I had on pre order. I can't see Dapol getting any more of my money as they just can't seem to get anything right.
Quote from: PLD on March 17, 2017, 01:57:47 PM
Quote from: Bingley Hall on March 17, 2017, 12:25:18 PM
If Dapol feel the Light Pacifics won't sell, then N-gauge looks to be in some pretty pretty serious trouble.
Quote from: Roy L S on March 17, 2017, 01:09:51 PM
As to the West Country/BoB, I wonder if Farish will grasp the opportunity
If reports from some retailers are accurate, Farish's MN's are not selling well - being outsold 3 or 4 to 1 by other Pacifics such as the LNER A1s and A2s and LMS Duchesses... Could Dapol have received similar feedback and that have influenced the decision??
IF that is the case, would Farish want to risk another SR Pacific that to the non-Southern modeller is barely different to, and would mostly only abstract sales from their existing model??
Quote from: Karhedron on March 17, 2017, 01:21:52 PM
Dapol announced towards the end of last year that they were having problems with the chassis. They wanted to develop a new drive-train (presumably to catch up with Farish's new coreless drive) and the Bulleids were to be the first to use this. Apparently the disappointment was sufficient to send them back to the drawing board (presumably with the design costs that would entail). I suspect that this is why the Light Pacifics have been parked.
To halt development so soon after that previous announcement does seem a bit strange so I don't think it is the entire reason. I would suspect there is some additional factor such as revised downwards sales projections...
Quote from: PaulCheffus on March 17, 2017, 12:34:10 PM
Pity about the prototype HST but after the 4mm one being postponed I half expected this.
Quote from: red_death on March 17, 2017, 12:48:18 PMI was looking forward to the 59 and prototype HST (though I thought the way Dapol did expressions of interest was doomed to fail
Yes - it was only a matter of how and when they played that one out...
The only realistic way it was ever likely to be delivered was a pre-paid subscription/crowd-funding model. - More Revolution's territory I'd say :hmmm:
Quote from: bluedepot on March 17, 2017, 12:45:18 PM
Opportunity for a crowdfunded class 50 or 59 maybe?
Is DJM still making a 59 in oo?
I'll lay odds on him announcing at least one model off the list be the end of the year... ;)
The Streamlined MN is, I would suggest likely to be the least popular of all the Bullied Pacifics and probably no barometer by which to measure potential success of either of the Light Pacifics if produced in N.
Roy
Quote from: Byegad on March 17, 2017, 02:28:34 PM
I suspect that both Dapol and Graham Farish have spent a lot of money on detailing their models.
However the last two new locomotives I have bought are from Union Mills. Yes UM locos lack the detailing we see on GF and Dapol locos, but they run from new, without issues and dramas, and continue to do so for many a year. Plus any UM loco will out haul the opposition.
I don't think anyone really wants a return to the (by modern standards) toy like diecast metal bodies bereft of separate detail or the near enough is good enough approach to chassis/wheel dimensions of Poole model designs.
Union Mills models are fine as far as they go but should in my view be considered a choice rather than any kind of benchmark.
Regards
Roy
This is probably the most self-edited and self censored post I have ever posted on the NGF. There are rules on this forum for a reason and I intend to stick to them. So here goes;
I am saddened by this statement but not surprised. I have no reason to doubt the reasons given, my personal Dapol fleet is 100% in terms of "good ones" and I simply adore the detail on my 56/58/26.
My big concern is the state of the Graham Farish (Bachman) range as (please correct me on this if needed) they are also manufactured in China? I worry the same circumstances could thus apply to them.
The small silver lining is the fact that Revolution have sent a newsletter confirming tooling has started on the 92s.
I will let @red_death (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=246) comment / correct me, but I get the impression the Revolution funding model is better protected against currency fluctuations? I believe the practice of taking deposits is common place in the US / Canada (Rapido for example) and if that is the way UK models need to go, I personally am ok with that.
Skyline2uk
Well now, I'm going to view this glass as
half full and take at least three real positives from this thread...
#1Quote
.. Coupled with this statement is also an apology from me. Dapol as a company has undoubtedly over announced products in the past which has led to this situation. The tendency to be overly optimistic about development times and unrealistic about what can be achieved has been prevalent. It is our intention that any new models announced from now on will have been researched and developed to an extent that the model will be in store within 14 months of being made public. ...
#2Quote
.. It is also our intention to make more products at our own factory in the UK. This is a slow process with huge learning challenges, however we all at Dapol are committed to this and are proud of what we make in our small factory in Chirk. ...
#3Quote from: DJM Dave on March 17, 2017, 02:17:59 PM
Whilst i'd love to take up the challenge with the 50 or 59 or heck even my baby while i was there the BOB/WC, i wont be.
As mentioned anyone now taking on board those loco's would be taking a big gamble unless they had a factory underwriting the development and tooling and keeping Schtumm until it was ready for production and could show deco samples.
That would be the only way. Otherwise it's too public and could cause a face (or race) off which with 2 identical loco's being made in N, as per the B1 way back in the day, and will leave a poor taste in either parties mouth, and pocket.
Nope, i'm going to plod on, do what i've got on the go and announced, and clear those before i announce anything more (unless it's for 3rd parties and not a DJM funded project).
I'n fact i cannot even see any more crowdfunded enterprises after the King.
Well if it's going to be one of *those* threads... I've purchased a total of 9 brand new Dapol locos/railcars. One sent back for repair (Class 52, total failure), one sent back for replacement (Class 33, total lemon) and two with directional lighting failures (Class 52 and Class 22), which I can't be bothered to send back (one day I'll get a round tuit and the soldering iron out...). As a long-distance purchaser I've reluctantly come to the conclusion that my second-hand purchases have been much more reliable, which is good for my wallet but maybe not Dapol. I'd still happily shell out normal retail price for a class 86 in BR blue (these have so far proven reliable).
Reliability issues aside they do produce some beautiful locos.
As well as RailGooner's positives we still have some decent new releases planned by Dapol which look to be still arriving.
A comprehensive programme of HSTs and Mk3 coaches;
Class 67 - reliveries;
Class 68 - given the early success in 00 gauge I would be very surprised to see them pull this one back.
Class 142 at last.
Hopefully some of the modern wagons will escape the knife too.
Quote from: Skyline2uk on March 17, 2017, 02:41:30 PM
My big concern is the state of the Graham Farish (Bachman) range as (please correct me on this if needed) they are also manufactured in China? I worry the same circumstances could thus apply to them.
Farish seem to be posting enormous price rises on new models, which I guess is their way of coping.
I'm another one who is disappointed about the postponement of the 50. I was looking to get a fleet of around ten (mid-1980s WR layout) so had earmarked over a grand for them. Still, as long as it's delayed and not cancelled, that's something positive. And if I have to wait a few more years for them, at least I'll make a few pennies in interest. :-\
Quote from: Skyline2uk on March 17, 2017, 02:41:30 PM
This is probably the most self-edited and self censored post I have ever posted on the NGF. There are rules on this forum for a reason and I intend to stick to them. So here goes;
I am saddened by this statement but not surprised. I have no reason to doubt the reasons given, my personal Dapol fleet is 100% in terms of "good ones" and I simply adore the detail on my 56/58/26.
My big concern is the state of the Graham Farish (Bachman) range as (please correct me on this if needed) they are also manufactured in China? I worry the same circumstances could thus apply to them.
The small silver lining is the fact that Revolution have sent a newsletter confirming tooling has started on the 92s.
I will let @red_death (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=246) comment / correct me, but I get the impression the Revolution funding model is better protected against currency fluctuations? I believe the practice of taking deposits is common place in the US / Canada (Rapido for example) and if that is the way UK models need to go, I personally am ok with that.
Skyline2uk
Lots of frustration and disappointment being released on news like this, very well restrained 😁
One reason i have taken on revolutions trains, (by time of delivery about 50% of my models will be revolution by carriage unit count) Is that the regular updates, spread of cost and being apart of something bigger makes a huge difference.
I am almost baffled at why Dapol haven't broken away from the traditional commercial and production methods or at least do both.
Maybe Revolution and Dapol can get some agreements for picking up "non commercially viable" products into crowdfunded expression of interests.
Quote from: Skyline2uk on March 17, 2017, 02:41:30 PM
My big concern is the state of the Graham Farish (Bachman) range as (please correct me on this if needed) they are also manufactured in China? I worry the same circumstances could thus apply to them.
Farish are owned by Bachmann who are owned by Kader who are China (Hong-Kong?) based and own their own factories, so I suspect they're in a much better position to weather (hah) the production end of things. Not much they can do about long-term shifts in exchange rates though.
Slight digression, but bear with me: Tomix, who are together with Kato the "Big Two" in, Japan started out their N gauge range in collaboration with Kader (Hong Kong), but once N gauge took off in Japan they brought production on-shore, though more recently some has been re-outsourced to China, which works for them as Tomix is part of a large conglomerate which controls its own factories (there are rumours that they're shifting more production back to Japan again). Now, number 3 in Japan is MicroAce, who outsourced their production totally to China, which worked very well for a while as they were able to establish a nice little line in smaller production runs of obscurer trains with short turnaround times, but a couple of years ago ran into massive production problems and are only just recovering - partly by going up-market and up-price. Interestingly they were apparently using the same manufacturer as Dapol (this is hearsay from someone in Japan who sells British stuff, but both MicroAce and Dapol products were certainly coming with foam inlays of almost identical consistency which I've never seen from any other manufacturers).
TLDR - be big enough to own your own factories/supply chain (IIRC Rapido do too), aka taking back control.
(Disclaimer: I may be talking out of my derriere here, expert opinions welcome).
Quote from: Skyline2uk on March 17, 2017, 02:41:30 PM
The small silver lining is the fact that Revolution have sent a newsletter confirming tooling has started on the 92s.
I will let @red_death (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=246) comment / correct me, but I get the impression the Revolution funding model is better protected against currency fluctuations? I believe the practice of taking deposits is common place in the US / Canada (Rapido for example) and if that is the way UK models need to go, I personally am ok with that.
Hi Skyline
Yes and no, currency fluctuation is something we've suffered with as well. Or rather sudden falls in the value of the £. If you know the £ is going to be reasonably stable for 12-18 months then things are not too bad as you can price appropriately, it is rapid changes (eg post-Brexit) that have the potential to be really bad. For most of our projects we've actually been quite lucky in timing, but it has been quite hairy at times!
In general I actually think that setting a price up front ahead of design, tooling and production is very difficult as no one wants to be in a position where they are forced to raise prices having already taken money off people, it is much easier to set a price once tooling and production is complete!
Where we do have an advantage is that we will only start to pay out money for the large ticket items ie tooling once we are certain that there is sufficient market (we don't have the benefit of anyone underwriting us so we make sure that all our projects are self-funding and not cross-subsidising other parts of our range). That gives us certainty that if we have got the original costings correct and the currency hasn't moved too much that the projects will be OK.
We did luck at currency hedging, but that didn't seem to be easily available for a small business like ours, though perhaps it will be something that we need to re-visit in the future.
Cheers, Mike
Quote from: newportnobby on March 17, 2017, 02:31:30 PM
BR rebuilt 'Spitfire' after the Lewisham crash in 1957 and that was what I had on pre order. I can't see Dapol getting any more of my money as they just can't seem to get anything right.
Sorry NPN but Spitfire was only repaired after the Lewisham crash. It was never rebuilt.
Prehaps I shall have to dust off my Poole Light Pacific's, they might be worth something! :laugh3: ;D
Dodger
After 5 years from their first announcement I'm too am very disappointed that Dapol are not continuing with development of the Bulleid Light Pacifics. I had pre-ordered both "Air Smoothed" and "Modified" versions and would probably purchased more than one of each although I was a bit worried about what the price would be when they arrived !
The real air smoothed Merchant Navy loco is too heavy a type to have run on my original choice of model railway location but due to the long wait for a WC or BB I couldn't resist buying the recent Farish model. I now have two of these delightful models (both bought on eBay at below £100) and have changed the layout plan to make them acceptable....
Quote from: red_death on March 17, 2017, 04:04:16 PM
Where we do have an advantage is that we will only start to pay out money for the large ticket items ie tooling once we are certain that there is sufficient market (we don't have the benefit of anyone underwriting us so we make sure that all our projects are self-funding and not cross-subsidising other parts of our range). That gives us certainty that if we have got the original costings correct and the currency hasn't moved too much that the projects will be OK.
Cheers, Mike
I think you also have the advantage that this is not your day job, as painful as it would be you can put things on hold for a period or you could even walk away completely.
As you say you have kept each product standalone, so if you get it wrong then it is a problem limited to what you and the buyers have invested in the particular product. If Dapol, Farish or DJM get pricing wrong then their whole range could suffer unless they have sufficient funds to take the pain.
Farish have Bachmann and Kader to turn to (maybe once or twice), Dapol and DJM have no Parent companies to step in so need to be more cautious.
We'll hopefully see sweating of existing tooling which wont be a bad thing, maybe we will also see tweaking of early models - could a new motor and more reliable wiring be added to the Voyager and Super Voyagers with low investment?
Regards
Iain
The good news from this seems to be that these models are delayed rather than cancelled...
Cheers
Mark
I think it's a softer way of saying "you'll never see them, but we don't want to admit we're giving up as we've invested a lot of money and a competitor may step in".
Well I am gutted, and summed up by I think we all felt it was coming. Fingers crossed the new maunsells turn up.
Farish have produced the most limited bullied Pacific so far.
Really upset/disappointed 😞
Think I'll be grateful for what I have and work on the layout instead.
Guess this means the chassis upgrade for 45xx, M7 and inattention also get delayed???
Graham
PS let's not forget at one time there was plans for modified halls, dapol. I only know as Osbornes advertised one as limited edition pre order for a while
Quote from: njee20 on March 17, 2017, 05:16:53 PM
I think it's a softer way of saying "you'll never see them, but we don't want to admit we're giving up as we've invested a lot of money and a competitor may step in".
Have to agree with you on that one - it's a bit like the cahrter airlines who continuously announce delays of half an hour - when the incoming flight hasn't even landed yet !
Quote from: Byegad on March 17, 2017, 02:11:21 PM
Sorry, but rather than blame Brexit, world conditions or the state of the pitch at Wembley, shouldn't Dapol admit that their poor quality control has brought them to the point where they're in trouble?
Ask anyone else in finance or industry and they'll tell you the same thing -- whether or not Brexit is the right thing for the UK, it does mean the UK is going through an uncertainty stage likely to last 10 years or more. While an interim agreement with the EU is likely before May for various logistical reasons, the actual "uncoupling" is estimated by insiders to take a good 10-20 years. Things like trade agreements everyone talks about, well, we simply don't have diplomats or civil servants trained and experienced in that, and then there's all the complex stuff like security, rail franchises, fishing quotas, etc. that we/they simply can't walk away from. Sorting these things out will take many, MANY years if it's to be done right. That's a period of uncertainty, which is what long-term investors and speculators don't like, which is causing Sterling to be relatively weak.
Dapol quality control might not be the best, but it's probably at the level we're prepared to pay for. And more to the point, their 2-year warranty means that flawed models are replaced quickly enough. If your model fails after 2 years, it's hard to pin the blame on Dapol any more than any other manufacturer -- even though I'd love their models to be as rugged as old Hornby Dublo!
Quote from: Byegad on March 17, 2017, 02:28:34 PM
I suspect that both Dapol and Graham Farish have spent a lot of money on detailing their models.
However the last two new locomotives I have bought are from Union Mills. Yes UM locos lack the detailing we see on GF and Dapol locos, but they run from new, without issues and dramas, and continue to do so for many a year. Plus any UM loco will out haul the opposition.
I agree that the balance often seems in favour of delicate bits that snap off over sturdy mechanisms, but all three companies know their markets. If Dapol issued Minitrix-level detailing on a new steam or diesel locomotive, I doubt it'd sell well, however smoothly it ran. If nothing else, DCC has meant that all locomotives need to have a certain amount of electronics just to accommodate the chip. Lights are something else the market expect now, but probably like others here, I've got locos with failed lights at one end!
Cheers, NeMo
Quote from: Western Exile on March 17, 2017, 03:06:50 PM
And if I have to wait a few more years for them, at least I'll make a few pennies in interest. :-\
I bet the prices rise a lot more than your interest will.
Quote from: dodger on March 17, 2017, 04:18:09 PM
Quote from: newportnobby on March 17, 2017, 02:31:30 PM
BR rebuilt 'Spitfire' after the Lewisham crash in 1957 and that was what I had on pre order. I can't see Dapol getting any more of my money as they just can't seem to get anything right.
Sorry NPN but Spitfire was only repaired after the Lewisham crash. It was never rebuilt.
From the pics I've seen you can call it repair but I'd call it a rebuild, Dodger.
Quote from: escafeld on March 17, 2017, 05:45:52 PM
Also the pay rise for Chinese workers doesn't add that much extra cost to models as 20% of a small wage still leaves it a small wage.
The problem there is that the labour element, being so intensive, is a large percentage of the overall costs so it still adds up to quite a hike.
Quote from: njee20 on March 17, 2017, 05:16:53 PM
I think it's a softer way of saying "you'll never see them, but we don't want to admit we're giving up as we've invested a lot of money and a competitor may step in".
This is also what I think.
I also assume that the new motorisation for the BoB is a reason for its cancellation. And maybe combined with low sales perspective.
The prototype HST was on top of my wish list and the class 59 was also tempting.
The good side of it is that I will spend less money and less hesitate on buying the HST set in the new drak green GWR livery.
I must say I expect the same kind of announcement from DJ Models.
I fear we'll never see some of the locomotives and wagons announced so long ago. It's a pity because I really want a class 17 and an 0-6-0ST Hudswell Clarke! And I forget the LSWR brake van.
Oh dear, your pessimism is about to be sorely shattered then!
N gauge class 17 is in the tool room and will debut at the Perth show in June.
Mermaids are in production.
Oh and if anyone's interested, I modified a Dapol A4 to loco drive with a coreless motor and tested it extensively over 2 years ago. The modification took about 4 days and it works to this day, perfectly. It forms the basis for the j94 and Hudswell Clarke chassis in N gauge when they arrive.
Dave
Quote from: DJM Dave on March 17, 2017, 08:51:22 PM
Oh dear, your pessimism is about to be sorely shattered then!
N gauge class 17 is in the tool room and will debut at the Perth show in June.
Mermaids are in production.
Impossible, it's all vapourware I tell you! Lalalalalalalalalal. :jawdropping:
Nurse, where are my tablets? :P
Come on Dave play fair even my daughter knows mermaids don't exist. :D
They'd better hurry with the Pacer. When the model was announced, it was still very much a contemporary train. Now, the 142 is condemned, with the last Northern units going in early 2019, and regulations due to catch up with the entire class by 2020. It's even possible for model might be launched with no surviving examples around; the first Pacer Preservation Society, of which I was a member, disbanded after about four years, though I understand another society was formed last year.
Of course, some would argue it is such a hated train that it should never be preserved or modelled, though personally, I think such a short train would be very good for an ultracompact layout.
As for DJM, I put my name down for the 17 and the Hudswell too, but I am most interested in the Hudswell, of which we have still heard very little.
Quote from: DJM Dave on March 17, 2017, 08:51:22 PM
Oh dear, your pessimism is about to be sorely shattered then!
N gauge class 17 is in the tool room and will debut at the Perth show in June.
Mermaids are in production.
Oh and if anyone's interested, I modified a Dapol A4 to loco drive with a coreless motor and tested it extensively over 2 years ago. The modification took about 4 days and it works to this day, perfectly. It forms the basis for the j94 and Hudswell Clarke chassis in N gauge when they arrive.
Dave
I would be more than happy then. :D
So I keep on crossing my fingers and toes.
PS: I learnt two more words today, "sorely" and "shatter". It reminds me how bad my English is.
DJM Dave, I have often wondered why you plan to use coreless motors in everything, including the large diesels. Farish only uses them when space is at a premium. Do they offer any advantages in larger N Gauge models?
Well I'm not surprised, and when a Tomix chassis from Japan goes up from £19 to £24 in a year it's the currency for what ever reason.
The really interesting comment is that Dapol are going to make more here. It's small beginnings but once they start to build any quantity here, probably in O gauge they will begin to wonder why they bothered with China especially after the America first policy creases Chinese industry forcing their prices way up.
Consider this....
The Farish Castle has a coreless, the WD does too, however the new 40 does.
People argue that they are cheap. Yes they are cheaper, but if done right they are extremely smooth and quiet.
I've not had one burn out yet either.
It allows more space and that space can easily be used for things like speakers, extra weight, sound decoder space.
It's the way forward, the OO models I've produced so far have quite possibly unheard of reliability. I'm running at 2% failure (and 80% of those are simple oiling, running or the occasional blanking plug change before going back to the customer) and Hattons are quoted this week as running at 1% for the 14xx.
They are here to stay in both gauges. Indeed, the Bachmann USTC tank in OO has one too.
Cheers
Dave
Well I am coming late to this thread at the end of a long snowy Friday here in the US. To say I am cross is an understatement, so I will not mince my words...
Quite frankly this news sucks. Regardless of the reason for the cancellations (yes that's what this is), Dapol have completely let down the N gauge community. And that is before I take into consideration awful quality control and shocking customer service (ever tried to get an out of warranty Dapol loco repaired?).
So I will boycott anything from Dapol from now on and hope others do likewise. I hope that RevolutioN, Farish, Peco, Union Mills and DJM step up, either in their own name or by crowdfunding. Indeed, I am prepared to step up and help get these models made - just let me know how I can help!
Excuses, excuses, excuses. I'm sorry Dapol, but this is the final straw...
Quote from: Chetcombe on March 18, 2017, 02:44:59 AM
Well I am coming late to this thread at the end of a long snowy Friday here in the US. To say I am cross is an understatement, so I will not mince my words...
Quite frankly this news sucks. Regardless of the reason for the cancellations (yes that's what this is), Dapol have completely let down the N gauge community. And that is before I take into consideration awful quality control and shocking customer service (ever tried to get an out of warranty Dapol loco repaired?).
So I will boycott anything from Dapol from now on and hope others do likewise. I hope that RevolutioN, Farish, Peco, Union Mills and DJM step up, either in their own name or by crowdfunding. Indeed, I am prepared to step up and help get these models made - just let me know how I can help!
Excuses, excuses, excuses. I'm sorry Dapol, but this is the final straw...
Sadly the real world, is just too hard for some people to handle.
Hopefully you don't run your household finances on a wing and a prayer?
Indeed it is sucky news. Was looking forward to a couple of new 50s but also glad I didn't sell my Farish 50 too soon. Better wack a decoder into it since a DCC ready doesn't seem likely for a couple of years.
I don't think punishing any manufacturer financially for their business decisions, which don't hurt any customer financially, is a good response. Who would like to see any manufacturer stop producing N stuff? Certainly not I, as I have quite a bit of Dapol N products and would like to buy more.
And thanks to Dapol MD for informing us about the situation rather than letting items silently fade into the mists of the future.
Regards,
CFJ
PS Maybe better pray that this prompts Farish to update and re-release their Class 50.
Quote from: DJM Dave on March 17, 2017, 08:51:22 PM
Oh and if anyone's interested, I modified a Dapol A4 to loco drive with a coreless motor and tested it extensively over 2 years ago. The modification took about 4 days and it works to this day, perfectly. It forms the basis for the j94 and Hudswell Clarke chassis in N gauge when they arrive.
Dave
That would indeed make a great "How-To". Any chance?
CFJ
I wonder how much the move towards 00 and 0 was influenced by the difficulty of both manufacturing and repairing N gauge models As well as the smaller market?
I believe DCC Supplies have their hands full with returns and repairs under warranty. I know that if I was in the business of repairing locos I'd much rather work on the bigger scales.
I wonder if they get a higher percentage of returns and repairs on N gauge models?
Quote from: newportnobby on March 17, 2017, 08:33:14 PM
Sorry NPN but Spitfire was only repaired after the Lewisham crash. It was never rebuilt.
From the pics I've seen you can call it repair but I'd call it a rebuild, Dodger.
[/quote]
Is there a confusion of terms here, Spitfire was always a spamcan. It was rebuilt to the BR version.
Dodger
Quote from: Bingley Hall on March 18, 2017, 03:11:47 AM
Sadly the real world, is just too hard for some people to handle.
Hopefully you don't run your household finances on a wing and a prayer?
I'm sorry, but I have no idea what has provoked your response. Regardless of the reason behind the announcement (and I am certain that it has nothing to do with my household finances!), this is a company that has consistently failed to deliver and when it does deliver, it delivers an inconsistent product and poor customer service wrt repairs.
The only 'wing and a prayer' is whether their product works out of the box or not.
This is not good news but alas also not entirely suprising.
What gets my back up personally is the time its taken to get - or should I say not get - to this stage.
Trawling the internet just now I find a post by Karhedron (it was on another Forum - but I won't mention that here.....your secret is safe with me!) in Feb 13 showing CAD images from dapol for the 50's.
So there has been over FOUR YEARS of press releases, general hype and jam tomorrow statements around creating interest and expectation.
I assume - as I'm guilty of it - that a number of people have held off buying a Farish 50 because the Dapol one is 'just around the corner' and expect the same is true for Spamcans too.
I thought the whole point of CAD design and to some extent having manufacturing in China was to get product to market faster? In excess of four years is a joke but to be blowing their trumpet about forth coming product for that length of time to is shameful.
I haven't got anything on order from Dapol, but the situation looks a bit sad to me.
While I am disappointed about the news of the class 50 it's not the end of my world.
Jamie
Quote from: 47033 on March 18, 2017, 11:57:23 AM
While I am disappointed about the news of the class 50 it's not the end of my world.
Jamie
In all honesty there was nothing I wanted in the list from Dapol so it doesn't really affect my future choices.
What I do find harder to accept is that after so many years with these models no further forward and quite possibly not beyond the original CAD, their comments are still sufficiently ambiguous to suggest that they might still do them one day thus in effect still laying "claim". The BoB/West Country and Class 50 are surely two highly popular models in any scale so while possibly a canny tactic it is not likely to endear Dapol to those who have been waiting patiently to now be told that a product isn't a "not" but a "maybe some day, maybe not".
Roy
In the case of the BoB/West Country, 6 years in the waiting. Brexit is just the latest glib excuse for marking their territory without making good on their announcements.
Dapol's credibility with this N Gauge modeller has just fallen through the floor faster than Sterling!
Tom.
I have been accused of being a Dapol apologist elsewhere, but lets be clear here the writing has been on the wall for N gauge with them for a few years. This pre dates brexit and is more internal philosophy and move to bigger profit O gauge. The class 50 was announced so many years ago it should have been told way before brexit. This loco would have generated years of profit, it's a first gen diesel that ran main line until very recently if not still, runs on umpteen heritage lines, has warn loads of liveries. Dapol will for the next few years be producing O gauge steam era vehicles, even O gauge diesel won't get much of a look in.
They seem to have forgotten most of their club members are N Gauge and that has bought them a lot of money and loyalty over the years.
Quote from: escafeld on March 18, 2017, 01:26:17 PM
In the meantime, if these models are going to be such good sellers and profitable, there is nothing stopping another manufacturer producing the models that Dapol has postponed
Except why would another manufacturer take that risk when Dapol have left it's status so ambiguous? If Dapol have no intention of taking these models any further in the next few years they should cancel them and return these types to the market so that someone else could decide to pick them up in confident knowledge they will not face duplication.
The fact remains that Dapol have had 6 years to get their act together over the BoB/WC, and they've failed to do so, stringing those of us who have waited along in the process. Blaming Brexit is the latest excuse to dissuade other companies from looking at these types because they might decide to come back to them at a later date.
Tom.
Just had a slightly wicked thought - that there now seems to be more than one way of reducing the "backlog" of releases.
Of course, option 2 will not necessarily endear them to their N gauge customers ?
What is all the fuss about
Dapol have made a business decision based on protecting their company's future
If the delayed / cancelled models are viable others will either directly produce or test the market via crowdfunding.
If produced by others we may get better models as we all know Dapol QC is poor
I can't see why people are annoyed with Dapol.
They clearly intended to make these models and a fair chunk of time and money will have been taken up getting to where they are today. They can only order tooling to make new models when they have sufficient cash to do so. They have obviously taken a long hard look at things and realised that, with the current circumstances, they can't see a viable return on their investment if they were to go ahead with the tooling for these projects. The drop in the value of sterling against the dollar following the Brexit vote will have been a significant factor.
I would suggest that the Dapol management are just as sad about these cancellations/postponements as we are.
We can see that Dapol are investing in other scales. If this provides a better return on investment than N gauge then they are doing the right thing for the business. Indeed the management have a duty to the shareholders to make as much profit as possible to give the best possible return on the money invested in the company by the shareholders.
This could be the harbinger of the UK outline N gauge model railways changing forever, at not in a good way.
It will be interesting to see if much manufacturing comes back to he UK. I hope it does. It will take some years for this to happen as setting up production and sourcing components in a country where this isnt business as usual will be a significant task.
I wish Dapol well for the future.
A few general observations.
The pound is where it should be and not over valued which is what it was, so don't expect that to change soon. The lower value of the pound might just keep us all employed.
Dapol have not marked their territory over the BoB, 50 or 59 as they have said they are out of the game, and for some considerable time. If someone started a BoB now Dapol would not be able to respond and would certainly not take the risk of double sourcing.
So who is up for it is the question but they have to get underway soon.
Quote from: Chris Morris on March 18, 2017, 02:33:49 PM
I can't see why people are annoyed with Dapol.
They clearly intended to make these models and a fair chunk of time and money will have been taken up getting to where they are today. They can only order tooling to make new models when they have sufficient cash to do so. They have obviously taken a long hard look at things and realised that, with the current circumstances, they can't see a viable return on their investment if they were to go ahead with the tooling for these projects. The drop in the value of sterling against the dollar following the Brexit vote will have been a significant factor.
I would suggest that the Dapol management are just as sad about these cancellations/postponements as we are.
We can see that Dapol are investing in other scales. If this provides a better return on investment than N gauge then they are doing the right thing for the business. Indeed the management have a duty to the shareholders to make as much profit as possible to give the best possible return on the money invested in the company by the shareholders.
This could be the harbinger of the UK outline N gauge model railways changing forever, at not in a good way.
It will be interesting to see if much manufacturing comes back to he UK. I hope it does. It will take some years for this to happen as setting up production and sourcing components in a country where this isnt business as usual will be a significant task.
I wish Dapol well for the future.
We have been waiting and been promised these models for a very long time, they should have been tooled long before the current financial problems. This is why I have broken with my usual stand point of defending this small British company. The writing has been on the wall for 2 to 3 years for N gauge at Dapol if not a bit longer, way before Brexit. I have unfortunately seen this coming from my association and friendship with some past and present at Dapol.
How long before any re-runs of remaining N gauge stock also go down the "indefinitely postponed a.k.a cancelled" cul-de-sac ?
Quote from: koyli55002 on March 18, 2017, 02:58:30 PM
How long before any re-runs of remaining N gauge stock also go down the "indefinitely postponed a.k.a cancelled" cul-de-sac ?
I do not think that is likely to happen. In the last few weeks Dapol have identified rerun/new liveries for HSTs, Class 67s, and Mk3 coaches, and issued catalogue numbers and livery details for them. Essentially all the established tooling provides a route to improve income as long as the marginal cost of production can be fully recovered with profit in the selling price.
For anyone expecting an early return of manufacturing to he UK it is worth reflecting on what this would mean for say a Mk3 coach. First assumption is that the tooling "belongs" to Dapol and can be moved to the UK. Secondly that the moulding machines available in the UK can use the tooling. Then there is the actual manufacture, printing, assembly, quality control, packing and shipping, all of which involve UK personnel with some dexterity or other skills. The shipped item then has to be received at the UK distribution point and be sold and shipped to a retailer who expects a reasonable margin for his services, and takes the Sale of Goods risks. We may complain about prices for China made items today, but I suspect they still offer better value than UK manufacture could hope to achieve in the foreseeable future.
Quote from: Ben Line 457 on March 18, 2017, 10:32:49 AM
........................What gets my back up personally is the time its taken to get - or should I say not get - to this stage.
Trawling the internet just now I find a post by Karhedron (it was on another Forum - but I won't mention that here.....your secret is safe with me!) in Feb 13 showing CAD images from dapol for the 50's.
So there has been over FOUR YEARS of press releases, general hype and jam tomorrow statements around creating interest and expectation.............................................
Dapol announced the Bulleid Pacifics in 2011 see the RMWEB post:
http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/45793-dapol-october-annoucements-no-longer-secret (http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/45793-dapol-october-annoucements-no-longer-secret)
So we've waited nearly SIX YEARS for this....
Joel has admitted in his statement they "over announced" and apologised for it, and also stated that it won't happen in the future. Not sure where complaining about that aspect is really going?
Paul
Quote from: Sprintex on March 18, 2017, 04:53:34 PM
Joel has admitted in his statement they "over announced" and apologised for it, and also stated that it won't happen in the future. Not sure where complaining about that aspect is really going?
Paul
Hi Paul
Possibly because it has taken years to admit to it prior to which there had been no suggestion that these models were not progressing towards production.
I am not interested in the models affected personally but had I pre-ordered and been patiently waiting I would have been an unhappy bunny too.
Regards
Roy
Quote from: Roy L S on March 18, 2017, 05:51:26 PM
Quote from: Sprintex on March 18, 2017, 04:53:34 PM
Joel has admitted in his statement they "over announced" and apologised for it, and also stated that it won't happen in the future. Not sure where complaining about that aspect is really going?
Paul
Hi Paul
Possibly because it has taken years to admit to it prior to which there had been no suggestion that these models were not progressing towards production.
I am not interested in the models affected personally but had I pre-ordered and been patiently waiting I would have been an unhappy bunny too.
Regards
Roy
Precisely. When the light pacifics were announced I placed a pre order as soon as that facility became available and have since been disappointed time and again by a plethora of delays. I joined the Dapol 'Digest' forum in the hope of getting more regular updates than their own website but it struck me even Dapol themselves couldn't be bothered/weren't able to provide updates and that 'Digest' has pretty much been a waste of time for me.
Never having been a great fan of theirs apart from them making Farish sit up, take notice, and improve their products, my opinion at present is not really going to escape the Mods.
I'm just miffed that so long after announcing the 50, 59, BoB etc that they've only now admitted they haven't got any further than producing CADs, if that, when another manufacturer could have released them by this time. This landgrabbing of classes then sitting on your hands is poor. I wish Dapol success as I wouldn't want them to go down (and I like their coaches, which seem to be short supply) but they should have come clean on their lack of progress much sooner.
C.
They won't go down (yet), but I wouldn't be surprised if they never did any new tooled items in N and/or eventually withdrew. we've got HIA and MJA hoppers that are way overdue with no feedback, the 68 which I know is at EP. The Pacer which is about 47 years late. I reckon we may see those, and that'll be it
Speaking personally, I feel I would be wary of putting my money into any "crowdfunding" for any of the classes in question. At the back of my mind would always be the worry that Dapol would dust off the relevant model and shove it into production, thereby sinking the crowdfunded version in mid-channel.....
Like many others, I feel that they would have been better concentrating on one or two projects rather than "landgrabbing so many and then sitting on their hands" (an excellent analogy by the way, and reminiscent of a certain supermarket chain ?) - perhaps we would have seen some definitive progress then ?
I'm still hoping the Pacer makes it - and preferably before the real thing is taken off the rails !
Just took a look on the Dapol website and found no mention of the news. The link in the first post in this thread returns a 'page not found'. However, if you look at the Product Development N gauge section, the only product now listed is the Class 68. How odd...
I hope they're not going to ditch the collectors club class 66 Evening Star.
There's been no further news on availability and it was originally promised around Easter time.
:hmmm: :beers:
Quote from: austinbob on March 18, 2017, 08:48:02 PM
I hope they're not going to ditch the collectors club class 66 Evening Star.
There's been no further news on availability and it was originally promised around Easter time.
:hmmm: :beers:
Wouldn't be surprised - especially since it's now on Bachmann's "to do"list ?
There are loads of collectors club members who've sent undated cheques to reserve their Evening Star class 66. Probably a bit premature to write it off yet. I hope.
??? :beers:
So people are wary of crowdfunding, but some will send undated cheques to a company with a history of hideous delays?! Madness.
Still upset, started writing four messages today in replies but none positive so I've scrapped them all.
The West Countries and BoBs were a big part of my layout plans, so truly disappointed.
That said worse things happen and money now saved for other projects away from model railways.
Thanks dapol for the injection in the market and good luck with the business I hope the extra maunsells turn up.
Graham :(
Quote from: njee20 on March 18, 2017, 09:16:50 PM
So people are wary of crowdfunding, but some will send undated cheques to a company with a history of hideous delays?! Madness.
Bit of an over reaction - the 66 is already in production and Evening Star is just a re-livery. So not a big risk at first sight. However, the latest news about 'cancellations' makes it less certain that Evening star will actually happen.
:beers:
I agree. Reruns of existing models are more likely as they will want to maximise their profits which will probably entail sweating their existing assets as much as possible.
Glad you put it that way escafeld. I'd be very disappointed if I didn't get my evening star!!!
:beers:
Just a couple of thoughts for those (partly justified) accusing Dapol of a "Land Grab" in announcing those models when they did and encouraging other manufacturers (particularly DJM & Revolution) to "Grab" those same prototypes now...
1. Joel has been man enough to step forward and admit that the previous regime at the company were over ambitious and announced far too many models than was feasible for them to deliver in a reasonable timescale.
2. Who was the Product Development Manager at Dapol at the time of the alleged "Land Grab"??
So... What makes you thing these prototypes would progress any faster on someone else's ever growing back list of not-yet-delivered models than they have on Dapol's books?
QuoteI feel I would be wary of putting my money into any "crowdfunding" for any of the classes in question. At the back of my mind would always be the worry that Dapol would dust off the relevant model and shove it into production, thereby sinking the crowdfunded version in mid-channel
A proper crowdfunded project proceeds only when it reaches the target funding, so sales are guaranteed and the subsequent release of a competing product would not be an issue. Projects funded in this way remove much of the risk and financing burden for the project manager and do seem the best way forward for new players in N.
Quote from: Rabbitaway on March 18, 2017, 02:18:02 PM
If produced by others we may get better models as we all know Dapol QC is poor
Well that rules out Farish then.
Quote from: Roy L S on March 18, 2017, 05:51:26 PM
Hi Paul
Possibly because it has taken years to admit to it prior to which there had been no suggestion that these models were not progressing towards production.
I am not interested in the models affected personally but had I pre-ordered and been patiently waiting I would have been an unhappy bunny too.
Regards
Roy
Unfortunately some of the little bunnies are carrying on as though this is all some kind of personal insult.
Nothing like a good dose of internet outrage to get one through the weekend :o
Quote from: Karhedron on March 17, 2017, 12:09:20 PM
Announcement from Dapol.
Well that sucks, I was looking forward to the Light Pacifics in particular. :(
http://dapol.co.uk/index.php?route=blog%2Fpost&post_id=43#.WMvNx-hskGw.facebook (http://dapol.co.uk/index.php?route=blog%2Fpost&post_id=43#.WMvNx-hskGw.facebook)
Quote
The effects of the decision to leave the EU last June continue, particularly on the devaluation of Sterling and the increase in the general feeling of uncertainty as the actual leave date looms. These effects coupled with the continued inflationary pressures being experienced in China means that the decision to invest in projects and develop new lines is becoming increasingly difficult. Not only is the unit cost of models rising at an alarming rate but the cost of the tooling is also escalating. Tooling prices are now more than double what they were 7 years ago.
As a company we appreciate that this is an increasingly expensive hobby and that the current economic uncertainty threatens discretionary model purchasing. The crunch that we find ourselves in with alarmingly rising costs, dwindling volumes due to higher retail prices being required means we have to be realistic about what we can and cannot develop.
It is my responsibility as MD of Dapol to ensure the company's sustainability and the long term future of the business. Not only do I have a responsibility to our fantastic customer base but I also have a workforce which depends on Dapol's success.
With this predicament at the forefront, the company has to make difficult decisions about our funding and prioritising of projects, especially those that made financial sense when first announced but currently do not. Unfortunately, some previously announced and mooted projects will have to be put on abeyance until the economic conditions become more favourable. This is particularly, but not exclusively the case in N gauge were the small size of the market, the relatively high cost of manufacture and natural cap on retail prices means that returns are least favourable. Projects such as the Class 50, Class 59, prototype HST, Battle of Britain and others are being delayed as result of this. Over the next two weeks we will update our development pages on the website to reflect these decisions, so please look there to find out about any of our projects that are of interest to you.
Coupled with this statement is also an apology from me. Dapol as a company has undoubtedly over announced products in the past which has led to this situation. The tendency to be overly optimistic about development times and unrealistic about what can be achieved has been prevalent. It is our intention that any new models announced from now on will have been researched and developed to an extent that the model will be in store within 14 months of being made public.
It is also our intention to make more products at our own factory in the UK. This is a slow process with huge learning challenges, however we all at Dapol are committed to this and are proud of what we make in our small factory in Chirk.
I thank you all for your patience and understanding
Kind Regards
Joel Bright
MD
Oh. No. This isn't good.
Please don't quote the entire post in your reply, we know what you're talking about, it just makes the whole thread hard to read. :)
I do agree that I reliveries should be "safe", they're easy money for Dapol, they'd be daft not to do them.
Time perhaps for one of the new players to step up with a cheeky crowdfunded proposal for one of the deferred locos. The Class 50 and WC are surely solid bets even in N. And even if Dapol did change their minds as an attempted spoiler, would you switch back to them given their record of non-delivery?
That could be too much of a gamble. DJM had said he's not doing any more crowdfunding. It doesn't feel like Dapol could spring a surprise and bring something to market in 3 months (or they would have), but it's an uncertain landscape for any crowdfunding venture to go up against. Which is exactly the scenario they want to create.
I've no idea how the likes of Revolution deal with cancelled orders on models after they've entered production. One would hope people aren't so fickle as to jump ship at the first sign of something else on the horizon, but again, I'm not sure I'd take that risk knowing Dapol have done some work. That said I think we've only seen CADs of the WC/50, and Ben has previously observed that they're the cheap and easy bit!
Crowdfunding is expensive for the producer but I would argue that the much lower risk it entails makes it worth it, especially with a product like the 50 or WC which would likely see higher demand than most previous crowdfunded models.
Revolution take a substantial deposit upfront with your order and refund only if the project is aborted, so I think their exposure to customer cancellation will be low. In contrast, I wonder how DJM are going to fare with their expression-of-interest approach on the King; when they hit the decision date it will be hard to judge how much of that interest will translate into firm orders, especially with the Farish Castle coming to market about that time.
I'd love to see DJM, Revolution or another small maker step up to this opportunity but I suspect they have their hands full already.
Quote from: longbow on March 19, 2017, 03:32:58 AM
Time perhaps for one of the new players to step up with a cheeky crowdfunded proposal for one of the deferred locos. The Class 50 and WC are surely solid bets even in N.
Diseasels are relatively simple in comparison with a 4-6-2 pacific steam loco. You have to ask yourself who could produce the complicated working motion which is a far cry from a simple 0-6-0 with one connecting rod, shall we say for example. Currently that might leave you with either Farish or DJ Models.
I can't see either picking up the reins :no:
Dapol have said on their Facebook page that the statement affects only untooled items and that the new HSTs and Classes 68, 142 and 66 Evening Star are all going ahead.
Quote from: funnysunny365 on March 19, 2017, 01:24:51 AM
Quote from: Karhedron on March 17, 2017, 12:09:20 PM
Announcement from Dapol.
Well that sucks, I was looking forward to the Light Pacifics in particular. :(
http://dapol.co.uk/index.php?route=blog%2Fpost&post_id=43#.WMvNx-hskGw.facebook (http://dapol.co.uk/index.php?route=blog%2Fpost&post_id=43#.WMvNx-hskGw.facebook)
Oh. No. This isn't good.
funnysunny365, please ignore the post about not putting all of the quote in, sometimes some threads get that long some of us don't want to read what can take 3 or 4 hours to read, i know i have done it, so i reminder again about the OP is good IMO, but i do agree that some times members just keep on quoting the same post over and over again, but it is really easy to scroll down isn't it my using your mouse or even god forbid the little thing at the side of the screen you click on and move lol. Keep posting and enjoy your modelling. :thumbsup:
Quote from: PLD on March 18, 2017, 11:55:49 PM
Just a couple of thoughts for those (partly justified) accusing Dapol of a "Land Grab" in announcing those models when they did and encouraging other manufacturers (particularly DJM & Revolution) to "Grab" those same prototypes now...
1. Joel has been man enough to step forward and admit that the previous regime at the company were over ambitious and announced far too many models than was feasible for them to deliver in a reasonable timescale.
2. Who was the Product Development Manager at Dapol at the time of the alleged "Land Grab"??
So... What makes you thing these prototypes would progress any faster on someone else's ever growing back list of not-yet-delivered models than they have on Dapol's books?
Hi great mail, but nicely overlooking and possibly ignoring the facts.
Fact 1) yes the BOB /WC, the 59, the 50 were announced by me.
However, if you think I just woke up one day and thought 'I know, I'll announce these and just do it' without recourse / permission from my CEO, then that's incorrect and Ill thought through.
Fact 2) I've been left 4 years this coming July 22, so am I at fault for those 4 years for the lack of development on those projects? I'm not sure you thought that through either.
However, never let a good post and possible axe to grind get in the way of an incorrect post eh?
Quote from: longbow on March 19, 2017, 04:07:47 AM
Revolution take a substantial deposit upfront with your order and refund only if the project is aborted, so I think their exposure to customer cancellation will be low..
Principally I agree, but it's never been tested if someone suddenly brought 'their' product to market early in the process. It shouldn't make a difference, but it's something I would be considering were I Ben and Mike.
Interesting Dapol say that tooled items are safe, wonder if that excludes the HIA and MJA hoppers. I suspect so, which is a shame. Suspect they'd be good sellers, the OO gauge ones were a total bargain.
Quote from: DJM Dave on March 19, 2017, 07:46:46 AM
However, never let a good post and possible axe to grind get in the way of an incorrect post eh?
Sums up a lot of the reactions here, to be honest.
Projects being cancelled happens all the time in any industry that has to balance the cost of manufacture against the revenue generated by likely sales. Brexit threw a massive spanner into the works, the size of which people outside finance and industry cannot even begin to imagine.
Dapol is a small company that has "skin in the game" as our American cousins like to say -- if they make mistakes, they get burned. I have nothing but the greatest respect for Joel Bright and his team as they try to find a way to deliver at least some new products across an uncertain medium-term future. What Dapol are doing is incredibly difficult, and their honesty should be commended, even if it's disappointing. If I were Joel, I'd have found it very tempting just to cancel any and all speculative investments right now. They have plenty in their 'back catalogue' that could have paid the bills for a few years, without the need to invest time and money in research and development of new models for such as fickle market as ours. Instead he's picked the more difficult path, and we should be realistically understanding about what they're trying to do.
Cheers, NeMo
Quote from: DJM Dave on March 19, 2017, 07:46:46 AM
Quote from: PLD on March 18, 2017, 11:55:49 PM
Just a couple of thoughts for those (partly justified) accusing Dapol of a "Land Grab" in announcing those models when they did and encouraging other manufacturers (particularly DJM & Revolution) to "Grab" those same prototypes now...
So... What makes you thing these prototypes would progress any faster on someone else's ever growing back list of not-yet-delivered models than they have on Dapol's books?
Hi great mail, but nicely overlooking and possibly ignoring the facts.
However, never let a good post and possible axe to grind get in the way of an incorrect post eh?
Exactly Dave, based on this thread, there is more profit in an axe sharpening business (both sides of the axe) than Model railway manufacturing...
If however you thought that was a dig at you personally, it wasn't intended as such... It was aimed at the naive commentators who seem to believe that you or Revolution can somehow magically deliver in 6 weeks what Dapol have not achieved in 6 years. Expecting you to do that will only lead to further disappointment as anything you did pick up would presumably go to the back of your list to avoid frustrating the customers already waiting for J94s, 17s, 23s etc...
Hi mate,
Thanks for the reply and for clarifying the situation.
From my point of view, I know I have landgrabbed too much, but in all honesty that was done on the premise of predicted cash flow, pre Brexit.
Now don't anyone get me wrong, I'm not whining about things, it's just the way they are, but because I worked on such narrow margins in my pricing because I am conscious of the possibility of alienating people with a new product that's just too expensive, I made a rod for my own back.
Lots announced but nothing to pay for them with, and it's been a far longer road than anyone has expected. Then........that day. When the banks decided, and for the life of me I can't understand why, as although it's announced, be]rexit won't happen for a good few years yet, to alter currency rates against the U.K.£.
Ok, it happens, but over night, literally, things went pear shaped.
If you look at the 2 currency's I deal in overseas .....US$ and HK$ you can with a bit of ferreting work out my 'on paper' reduction in income.
It's not good, and in all honesty, I feel for any model railway company having to deal with this situation, added to wage and tax rises in China.
The smart money is already looking further afield in earnest now, for production in other country's. Personally, I can't see it happening for a few years, but it will happen.
Meanwhile my list won't grow longer and will start to grow shorter from this year in N gauge with the 17 and I hope 23.
Cheers
Dave
Quote from: DJM Dave on March 19, 2017, 07:46:46 AM
Quote from: PLD on March 18, 2017, 11:55:49 PM
Just a couple of thoughts for those (partly justified) accusing Dapol of a "Land Grab" in announcing those models when they did and encouraging other manufacturers (particularly DJM & Revolution) to "Grab" those same prototypes now...
1. Joel has been man enough to step forward and admit that the previous regime at the company were over ambitious and announced far too many models than was feasible for them to deliver in a reasonable timescale.
2. Who was the Product Development Manager at Dapol at the time of the alleged "Land Grab"??
So... What makes you thing these prototypes would progress any faster on someone else's ever growing back list of not-yet-delivered models than they have on Dapol's books?
Hi great mail, but nicely overlooking and possibly ignoring the facts.
Fact 1) yes the BOB /WC, the 59, the 50 were announced by me.
However, if you think I just woke up one day and thought 'I know, I'll announce these and just do it' without recourse / permission from my CEO, then that's incorrect and Ill thought through.
Fact 2) I've been left 4 years this coming July 22, so am I at fault for those 4 years for the lack of development on those projects? I'm not sure you thought that through either.
However, never let a good post and possible axe to grind get in the way of an incorrect post eh?
As Dave knows he and I don't always see eye to eye but I must play fair, Brexit is a smoke screen as these models were announced many, many moons ago. All could have been tooled well before Brexit, if the desire had been there.
Change of leadership when George left marked the shift to OO and O gauges, these new projects took priority over previously announced items. To blame this on Dave is thus unfair, he announced them in good faith under a different MD.
A lot of water has passed under the Dapol bridge with a couple of floods in the last 5-6 years, with changes in flow direction as well. Unfortunately this may leave us with only Farish as a major manufacturer and small set ups of DJM, Revolution and limited amounts from Dapol.
Very disappointed about the WC / BoB - Karhedron ruined my Friday with that news almost as much as the Irish rugby team ruined my Saturday.
I don't think it's fair to castigate Dapol for this though. The focus away from N gauge was on the cards after the changes in senior personnel and at least they've been honest enough to make a reasonably clear announcement, although I think we can probably take abeyance (which suggests temporary) to really mean cancelled.
As a Southern modeller, they'll be sorely missed. Their range of southern models over the years - M7, Q1, Terrier, Schools, 33 & Maunsell coaches - is far more comprehensive than Farish (although they have at last produced some excellent southern models in the last 2 or 3 years).
I hope someone picks up the WC / BoB although not sure it's likely to be any time soon. Will just have to spend my money on DJM Dave's forthcoming 17 - frequently seen in 60s South London, I believe.
Mark
Quote from: Mark on March 19, 2017, 09:58:45 AM
Will just have to spend my money on DJM Dave's forthcoming 17 - frequently seen in 60s South London, I believe.
I hope that was very tongue in cheek. 15s yes and 16s even less so, and even a 20 has been seen, but not a 17, unless it was an 08 and 09 pairing :)
Bob
Quote from: austinbob on March 18, 2017, 09:48:14 PM
Quote from: njee20 on March 18, 2017, 09:16:50 PM
So people are wary of crowdfunding, but some will send undated cheques to a company with a history of hideous delays?! Madness.
Bit of an over reaction - the 66 is already in production and Evening Star is just a re-livery. So not a big risk at first sight. However, the latest news about 'cancellations' makes it less certain that Evening star will actually happen.
:beers:
Asked on Dapol Digest when Class 66 Evening Star is likely to be available. Comment from Jeremiabunyan
'A recent chat with Neil was mainly about this...he said they'll be here in a few months. I am assuming it's 2-3 (but that's purely my own assumption).'Note that the original estimate was Easter!! Quote from Joel December 2016
'Once we have tweaked the livery a bit and made some adjustments on another Class 66 we are making they will go into the production queue. At this stage, I would say Easter time would be the best estimate.'So ... make what you want of that!!
:beers:
Quote
I hope that was very tongue in cheek. 15s yes and 16s even less so, and even a 20 has been seen, but not a 17, unless it was an 08 and 09 pairing :)
Bob
Bob, with your encyclopedic knowledge of all things southern I'm amazed you're not aware of the 17's long and noble association with the south.
Alright, yes .... completely tongue in cheek - it'll be my first Rule #1 loco. It can pull my ngs inspection saloon!
"All could have been tooled well before Brexit, IF THE DESIRE HAD BEEN THERE"
That clunk, I believe, was the sound of a nail being very firmly struck !
I've been following this thread with interest, open season on Dapol !
Maybe if they just produced N gauge wagons and coaches they would
save a lot of hassle, I have some of their non loco stuff and it
is very good.
A footnote, in 1961 John F Kennedy pledged to put a man on the
moon within 10 years and they did it in 8 , NASA could probably have
got a BoB loco on the shelves in about 20 mins ..... :D
Totally off topic LOL
Quote from: Mark on March 19, 2017, 10:49:43 AM
Bob, with your encyclopedic knowledge of all things southern I'm amazed you're not aware of the 17's long and noble association with the south.
Alright, yes .... completely tongue in cheek - it'll be my first Rule #1 loco. It can pull my ngs inspection saloon!
Clayton 8568 in preservation made it to Old Oak Common in 1991 http://www.railphotoarchive.org/search_engine_2.php?_format=4&img=1529020010000&_PAGE=1 (http://www.railphotoarchive.org/search_engine_2.php?_format=4&img=1529020010000&_PAGE=1)
And you could always pretend that the ones based at Wearmouth were actually based at Weymouth and had a Newcastle accent :laugh:
Bob
Quote from: broadsword on March 19, 2017, 12:05:59 PM
A footnote, in 1961 John F Kennedy pledged to put a man on the
moon within 10 years and they did it in 8
I think he actually said before this decade is out...which means they only just made it, but you are right - they did achieve it.
Quote from: Bob G on March 19, 2017, 12:32:02 PM
Quote from: broadsword on March 19, 2017, 12:05:59 PM
A footnote, in 1961 John F Kennedy pledged to put a man on the
moon within 10 years and they did it in 8
I think he actually said before this decade is out...which means they only just made it, but you are right - they did achieve it.
I am sure if Dapol had, like NASA had in those days, seemingly unlimited cash to spend they would be producing a new loco every week. It is money that governs everything these days.
Quote from: Ian Bowden on March 19, 2017, 01:00:37 PM
It is money that governs everything these days.
I can't quite agree with that. You can have squillions in the bank but if your production run is small and someone comes along with a larger, simpler run the chances are your slot will be bumped at the factory.
That post of mine was a joke, but having vast amounts of money doesn't necessarily
guarantee success (Football, scrapped military projects, big budget movies that flop).
Perhaps if Dapol had concentrated on fewer locos, ironing out flaws in the final product,
improving reliability ie getting things right before they sell to punters , they might be
in a better position now.
No comment on the Brexit issue it is going to happen so get over it, why don't all these manufactures make their stock in this country, why do they have to go a far to get anything made, don't we have any skilled personal anymore, and if we haven't get them trained and lets get back to being the best again. :thumbsup:
Quote from: newportnobby on March 19, 2017, 01:09:36 PM
Quote from: Ian Bowden on March 19, 2017, 01:00:37 PM
It is money that governs everything these days.
I can't quite agree with that. You can have squillions in the bank but if your production run is small and someone comes along with a larger, simpler run the chances are your slot will be bumped at the factory.
To develop that analogy a little more, why would your slot get bumped? Because someone else was paying more. What's that about money not being the key to everything!
Quote from: Steamie+ on March 19, 2017, 01:43:51 PM
No comment on the Brexit issue it is going to happen so get over it, why don't all these manufactures make their stock in this country, why do they have to go a far to get anything made, don't we have any skilled personal anymore, and if we haven't get them trained and lets get back to being the best again. :thumbsup:
Hi
That can be summed up in one word.
Cost.
Why do you think it was outsourced in the first place? Consumers arn't prepared to pay the price of products manufactured in the Uk. Look at the comments about the TEA tanker which is predicted to be £38 each and that's from China.
Cheers
Paul
Bang on Paul. The amount of moaning about current prices shows the market won't sustain the kind of costs associated with bringing manufacturing back to the U.K. That's why Dapol has 'postponed' these models - they don't think the market will pay what it costs to develop and build them. The mention of UK manufacturing is optimistic at best.
When China becomes too expensive manufacturing will move to the cheapest labour market, that's the way it works in global economy.
Quote from: Jonas on March 19, 2017, 03:28:32 PM
Bang on Paul. The amount of moaning about current prices shows the market won't sustain the kind of costs associated with bringing manufacturing back to the U.K. That's why Dapol has 'postponed' these models - they don't think the market will pay what it costs to develop and build them. The mention of UK manufacturing is optimistic at best.
Wrong Dapol have 'postponed/cancelled' these as priorities have changed and Brexit is the latest convenient excuse. These have been on the list since about 2012 give or take, so let's say 5 years of no activities and Brexit happened 10 months ago. Really change of priority is to blame 5 years ago, if they had wanted to these could have been bringing in money long before brexit was even dreamt of.
Quote from: Steamie+ on March 19, 2017, 01:43:51 PM
why do they have to go a far to get anything made,
As others have said, price.
Union Mills products probably show this in a way we can all appreciate. They're a little cheaper than equivalent Chinese-made models, that's true. But they're much simpler mechanisms; have no electronics to speak of (making DCC more complex than slotting in a chip); and most importantly, they're very basic in terms of details. Nothing much by way of separate handrails and the like, and the painting, lining and numbering is very limited (and often inaccurate or at least incomplete).
If you wanted Union Mills models to compare with the latest Farish and Dapol models, they're require a lot more time per model to assemble, and that'd raise their price.
Quote from: Steamie+ on March 19, 2017, 01:43:51 PM
don't we have any skilled personal anymore
Nope. The UK economy is increasingly oriented towards the financial services, and such manufacturing as does remain is more or less high-tech manufacturing nowadays, not toy-making. We make all sorts of high-end gizmos for aircraft, cars and all sorts. The people making these things have different skills to those making toy trains. You can't expect successful manufacturers like JCB or BAE Systems to start adding low-margin things like toys to their portfolios of products.
Quote from: Steamie+ on March 19, 2017, 01:43:51 PM
if we haven't get them trained and lets get back to being the best again.
Two things here. One is the obvious: we were never the best manufacturers. The British Empire protected its markets from competition, and that was what British manufacturing depended on. North British, Austin, English Electric and the like weren't bad companies by any means, but they had never had to deal with serious stiff competition, and the story of their decline through the 1950s and 60s was very much about their inability to compete on the world stage without protectionist policies in their favour.
The second thing is your assumption 16-18 year olds want to be trained to build and paint toy trains. Some might of course, but not for the wages they'd get given the price the toy train market would bear. If they want good jobs, people in Britain need to understand that learning about the STEM subjects (science, technology, engineering and maths) is the golden key that opens up opportunity. Expecting a living wage as a semi-skilled factory worker is increasingly looking about as realistic as banking on a lottery win for your retirement.
Let me stress that the assumption countries should make things they consume is not only out of date but actually harmful. Countries that depend upon each other have better relations. We buy from China; China invests in the UK. Neither country has anything to gain from an antagonistic relationship. In short, free international trade promotes prosperity and reduces the chance of war.
Cheers, NeMo
Quote from: Steamie+ on March 19, 2017, 01:43:51 PM
why don't all these manufactures make their stock in this country, why do they have to go a far to get anything made.
Cost. Estimates vary but those in the know have suggested that a loco to modern standards produced in the UK would cost roughly 3 times as much as the current made-in-China products. I think the hobby would be a lot smaller if new locos cost £300-ish each.
Quote from: Steamie+ on March 19, 2017, 01:43:51 PM
don't we have any skilled personal anymore
Not many and those who remain are far more expensive than their Chinese equivalents (see above).
Quote from: Steamie+ on March 19, 2017, 01:43:51 PM
and if we haven't get them trained and lets get back to being the best again.
]
And who is going to absorb the cost of hiring people and training them up, only to produce a loco far more expensively than their far-eastern counterparts?
Sorry to be blunt but like Trump's "make America great again", policies to bring back manufacturing from abroad will simply increase prices with customers like us bearing the costs. Manufacturing trains in the UK would not be cost effective, even on UK minimum wages (which mighht no even apply once workers have been trained up in injection moulding and assembly).
Oh dear! It does seem to be "Let's all have a pop at Dapol week. In the real world the facts are clear. The N market is not as big as that for 00, though there are more manufacruturers, and the tooling and production cost are similar. If Dapol think that they will not make a financial return on ' new' products they cannot be faulted if they decide not to invest/gamble on making them. They are a business - not a charity.
Seeing that they can bring a return on 00 and even O, then naturally they will choose to produced these products. I would remind the forum that they are not planning to cease production completely.
However, I do welcome their statement that they " have been promising items without any basis other than their "wish to produce list". This is not a new problem. I recall going to an open day at their factory (c.2004) when the then chairman George Smith ( who I liked and respected) showed the members of the N'Thusiasts Club their "magnificent seven". This was the details of seven completely new lococs which Dapol was in a position of " being able to produce with a six-month lead time!". These included a cl.92 and a cl.50 - amongst others, some of which were produced in the following several years. I also recall at the N Gauge Society AGM of 2001 when Mr.Smith was invited to talk about Dapol's plan to enter the N Gauge market. He said they would like to do this, but it would only happen if they received the assurances that they would be sure of having customer support.
I am not in the pay of Dapol, neither do I have no critism of their products. I own far too many of them - and guess what? I have had my share of problems also, but certainly not to extent of 75% which some people claim. Yes I do think better quality control is needed (still), but that would need someone permanently based where their manufacture is done, which would be massive cost (ultimately added to their selling price). Having spent two months this year in Hong Kong, and my own opinion is that HK has an 'everything will be done when we promised and as you ordered Mr.customer' a promise which they then find they cannot keep.
So let us be realistic. N Gauge is in better shape than it has been since I started in this gauge in the mid-70s. The quality is high, the pricing is an issue, though even that is relative, and the performance is also improved generally.
There may come a day ( sooner than we hope or think) when we will be able to ask a manufacture to produce a " one-off' of a prototype which very few people are likely to buy, and it all be produced in a few weeks. I am talking about when 3D printing has improved to match the quality achieved by the manufacturers currently.
We have what we have, so let' s get on with modelling.
Quote from: njee20 on March 19, 2017, 08:08:39 AM
Quote from: longbow on March 19, 2017, 04:07:47 AM
Revolution take a substantial deposit upfront with your order and refund only if the project is aborted, so I think their exposure to customer cancellation will be low..
Principally I agree, but it's never been tested if someone suddenly brought 'their' product to market early in the process. It shouldn't make a difference, but it's something I would be considering were I Ben and Mike.
Hi Nick,
Yes, we have considered this and with the TEA tankers we did have a couple of "late" cancellations, where customers had strong personal reasons, so we took the decision to refund and then sell their models at Warley.
With models still in development the only real risk is if a rival model appears actually ready for purchase after we have paid for tooling, but before our models are ready to be shipped.
But given the proven quality of Rapido and our regular updates with clear and observable progress I would not anticipate a significant number of cancellations, certainly not enough to threaten a project.
Those who choose to support us are not fickle and will have weighed up the likely outcomes before deciding to part with their hard earned cash.
Cheers
Ben A.
I think that I have read all the posts on this thread up to now. Leaving aside the emotional dimension/disappointment which is evident, there seems to be an understanding that the UK N gauge market cannot support sufficient sales on these models at the likely prices for future production not already tooled today.
The problem seems to be focussed on some of the "land grab" items which had progressed little over several years. Why they had not progressed is not certain but I suspect the projects could never get high enough up the queue to justify the tooling investment, given the competition from other scales and the financial, skill and capacity constraints which Dapol work within. Although it has been a long time coming the news that Dapol will not repeat the "land grab" is refreshing.
Once DJModels have reduced their queue, and some of the Farish plans have got off the drawing board and into tooling, we will be in a better place where the lead time from announcement to realisation is shortened, and we can all plan with more confidence.
I well remember two layouts back sending an enquiry to George Smith/Dave Jones about where in the train the Pendolino powered car would be. I got a response which allowed me to arrange the isolation sections to match the powered car being one of the driving coaches.
I'm not sure I've ever seen so many forum members and guests reading a thread as this one.
Congratulations to all on the spirit it is being conducted in. I'm finding the discussion fascinating.
I'm sorry but this wages thing is a lot of Hooey.
How many man hours does it take to make a model? From a kit of parts between 10 to 15 minutes max and allowing for handling (five operators 2 minutes each), stores packaging lets be generous and say it takes one man hour to make one model locomotive.
So on UK minimum wages that's £7.50 approx and in China £3.00. So the difference in labor cost here and in China is c£4.00.
There is a bigger difference in cost of capital, taxes etc but not shipping 8000 miles partly offsets this, especially if your UK factory is in a development zone and you get grants and subsidies for training staff etc.
We must be wary of China is cheaper propaganda, its not that much cheaper now and the small difference remaining is going away.
The clue in the Dapol statement is they are bringing manufacturing home, something that will be upsetting their Chinese suppliers and they may have a different problem they want to avoid disclosing that they are going to find it hard to get models from China in the short term.
NB I understand that Dapol just took on an additional industrial unit.
Quote from: Snowwolflair on March 19, 2017, 05:36:03 PM
I'm sorry but this wages thing is a lot of Hooey.
The labour cost is not just in final assembly and packing, and it would be naïve only to look at that aspect. Low volume production incurs labour costs all along the way and that is very evident when you see a model train factory working in China.
Quote from: woodbury22uk on March 19, 2017, 05:42:53 PM
Quote from: Snowwolflair on March 19, 2017, 05:36:03 PM
I'm sorry but this wages thing is a lot of Hooey.
The labour cost is not just in final assembly and packing, and it would be naïve only to look at that aspect. Low volume production incurs labour costs all along the way and that is very evident when you see a model train factory working in China.
Yes I have over simplified it, but
as I have run factories in China, my factoring in a four times allows for all the other averaged times.
Quote from: Snowwolflair on March 19, 2017, 05:45:31 PM
Quote from: woodbury22uk on March 19, 2017, 05:42:53 PM
Quote from: Snowwolflair on March 19, 2017, 05:36:03 PM
I'm sorry but this wages thing is a lot of Hooey.
The labour cost is not just in final assembly and packing, and it would be naïve only to look at that aspect. Low volume production incurs labour costs all along the way and that is very evident when you see a model train factory working in China.
Yes I have over simplified it, but as I have run factories in China, my factoring in a four times allows for all the other averaged times.
The other thing not to oversimplify is the comparison of wage levels and labour costs. Having run factories in 5 European countries, including England and Wales I am very conscious that wages are not the sole element in the labour cost incurred.
None of these models are on my wish lists so thankfully I am not affected. Neither as it happens am I likely to make any purchases at least from loco reruns, though on that score I might change my mind. And wagons/coaches might appeal. And I quite appreciate that the decision is driven by reasonable commercial and business factors.
But I can well understand the feelings of frustration and annoyance that they took so many years on some of these to get not very far, with very little in the way of progress reports. The prize example which did affect me was the Grafar Ivatt mogul - fabulous little model it is now I have it. Any business has to recognise that it will make no profits if it drives its customers away. And one good way of driving them away is making product announcements and then failing to deliver them, and/or not giving sensible explanations apologies for the delays, and revised timescales. Delays do happen in which case to keep your end-user/customer in the loop is normal good project management discipline. Now I think it was on this forum, though it may be another, that I picked up that our manufacturers had decided to refrain from announcing new models at least until their arrival in thee shops was much closer and less at risk of delay. I cannot find where I read it, but from memory it was as the item went into production - someone might be able to find it. But to me that is a very sensible approach. I hope they follow it through. Yes they are the hand which feeds us our wanted models. But we the customer are the hand which feeds them profits for their shareholders and ensures continuance of their business.
Like others I welcomed the arrival of Dapol in the N Gauge market. WE still have what is largely a duopoly but some potential competition is better than next to none. They have given us a fine range of impressive models. Yes there have been some issues over the years with running quality, derailing of leading bogies etc. And there was that ridiculous foray into silver wheels and cross head screws for the coupling rods with the early Brits, I think the early B1s as well? Though that one was cosmetic. They have certainly given us a lot more than I suspect Farish would have done on their own and probably forced the pace in technical development. like others I hope they can continue in N.
Just spent the best part of half an hour reading through the whole thread
Yes we have lost a few models, all of which i was interested in buying!
Seems to be far to much Hate Towards Dapol for it,
but c'est la vie
At Least we still have them as an N manufacturer along with the rest, Farish, RevolutioN, DJM And so on
If it wasn't for company's like them we would all have to kit build
Quote from: Ben A on March 19, 2017, 04:39:00 PMBut given the proven quality of Rapido and our regular updates with clear and observable progress I would not anticipate a significant number of cancellations, certainly not enough to threaten a project.
Those who choose to support us are not fickle and will have weighed up the likely outcomes before deciding to part with their hard earned cash.
Yes, I think this is pivotal. You do a fantastic example of being a "brand of the people", and I'm glad you've not seen many cancellations. I certainly hope (and imagine based on the resale value of the TEAs), this trend continues. perhaps this announcement does provide you an opportunity... or two!
Quote from: cazadoom on March 19, 2017, 06:50:44 PM
If it wasn't for company's like them we would all have to kit build
Quite right cazadoom! As one whose kit-building skills are completely derisory I am eternally grateful to all N gauge manufacturers.
(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/49/1658-190317195351.jpeg) (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=49736)
Mark
Are Dapol no longer going to produce the class 50 or have they delayed it ?
Jamie
Quote"Projects such as the Class 50, Class 59, prototype HST, Battle of Britain and others are being delayed as result of this."
First post in the thread.
Paul
Quote from: Mark on March 19, 2017, 07:58:30 PM
Quote from: cazadoom on March 19, 2017, 06:50:44 PM
If it wasn't for company's like them we would all have to kit build
Quite right cazadoom! As one whose kit-building skills are completely derisory I am eternally grateful to all N gauge manufacturers.
(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/49/1658-190317195351.jpeg) (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=49736)
Mark
Over the years I have built a lot of kits, and bashed kits and RTR models. At one point half my loco roster was kit built or modified. I sold some on when I abandoned my GWR fleet, and have replaced others as much better RTR became available. Even the Poole version of the 4F, which I still have was superior to my kit versions. And my hand tremor is somewhat worse now than 20+ years ago, so I have to be more selective in my efforts. However I am not unwilling to have a go as long as not too much money is at risk of ending up in the rubbish.
A real issue for loco kits, apart from the fact someone is going to have to find a market big enough to make and sell them in, is the chassis. In the good old days, you removed a screw from a Farish loco and the chassis came off. These days construction of RTR is not only complicated and fiddly, we would still have to pay the price of a whole loco to get the chassis.
Quote from: Sprintex on March 19, 2017, 08:16:18 PM
Quote"Projects such as the Class 50, Class 59, prototype HST, Battle of Britain and others are being delayed as result of this."
First post in the thread.
Paul
It's in the thread title too... ???
Quote from: woodbury22uk on March 19, 2017, 05:53:42 PM
The other thing not to oversimplify is the comparison of wage levels and labour costs. Having run factories in 5 European countries, including England and Wales I am very conscious that wages are not the sole element in the labour cost incurred.
A question; was the uk a worse place for running the factories than the other three countries, if so, why?
Quote from: Howlin`baz on March 19, 2017, 04:29:52 PM
Oh dear! It does seem to be "Let's all have a pop at Dapol week. ...
On Friday morning I read a statement from Dr Joel Bright, MD of Dapol. In that statement he took a large dump on many thousands of customers. So should we all just sit quietly and take it without venting? BTW, I cannot find that statement on the Dapol website now!
Quote from: Howlin`baz on March 19, 2017, 04:29:52 PM
.. I recall going to an open day at their factory (c.2004) when the then chairman George Smith ( who I liked and respected) showed the members of the N'Thusiasts Club their "magnificent seven". This was the details of seven completely new lococs which Dapol was in a position of " being able to produce with a six-month lead time!". These included a cl.92 and a cl.50 ...
So where are they then? You were told in 2004 by the MD of Dapol that they could have Class 92 and 50 on the shelves in 6 months. So 13 years later where are they? I suspect that Mr Smith lied to you, and Dr Bright has continued those lies.
Quote from: Howlin`baz on March 19, 2017, 04:29:52 PM
.. I also recall at the N Gauge Society AGM of 2001 when Mr.Smith was invited to talk about Dapol's plan to enter the N Gauge market. He said they would like to do this, but it would only happen if they received the assurances that they would be sure of having customer support. ...
And they got that support. I have personally supported them to the tune of several thousands of pounds. I've supported then despite fairly serious (lack of) quality issues. I've supported them when they shipped Class 66 models with inaccurate bogie frames, and I supported them when they charged me for replacement frames to fix their design error. I even continued to support them when they slipped back to shipping Class 66 models again with inaccurate bogie frames.
Quote from: Howlin`baz on March 19, 2017, 04:29:52 PM
.. We have what we have, so let' s get on with modelling.
No, I don't want to yet, I haven't finished
having a pop at poor innocent and defenceless Dapol. When I first read Dr Bright's statement, I tried to take positives from it. But as I have reread it many times over the weekend, I see it for what it is: a stinking pile of faeces. So if you want to continue apologizing for Dapol @Howlin`baz (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=375) you should. And if I and others want to continue
having a pop at Dapol, you should let us.
Quote from: Sprintex on March 19, 2017, 08:16:18 PM
Quote"Projects such as the Class 50, Class 59, prototype HST, Battle of Britain and others are being delayed as result of this."
First post in the thread.
Paul
Thanks for pointing that out. I saw that and the title but judging by all the fuss it seemed like something far more serious was going on than simply a delay. Fact is, Farish has announced the MK2F coaches in their catalogue a long long time ago and still there is no word on them. Dapol have at least come forward to say there is going to be a delay on certain products and we get this. I thought I may have missed something.
I guess telling us there's going to be a lengthy delay really didn't do them any good. Damned if they do, damned if they don't. Personally I'll keep my fingers crossed that they eventually produce these models and more besides.
Jamie
Quote from: Bornin1980something on March 19, 2017, 08:36:41 PM
Quote from: woodbury22uk on March 19, 2017, 05:53:42 PM
The other thing not to oversimplify is the comparison of wage levels and labour costs. Having run factories in 5 European countries, including England and Wales I am very conscious that wages are not the sole element in the labour cost incurred.
A question; was the uk a worse place for running the factories than the other three countries, if so, why?
My perspective is a management one, but we had very low staff turnover at all the sites so not bad places to work, even though other local job opportunities existed.
UK was the best environment. It was lightly unionised, workforce was skilled, thorough and flexible, and responded well to change. Strong workplace safety culture.
Austria and Germany were 100% unionised, and every change in working practices required lengthy consultation involving external union personnel whose main concerns were the impact on other workplaces. Skilled workforce but strong demarcation lines between jobs.
France was in between. A congenial place to work once I had stopped the wildcat strikes!
Also worked in an Indian factory which was one of our customers. I have a fund of stories from there, most of which are reserved for my eulogy! :-)
Quote from: escafeld on March 19, 2017, 09:27:13 PM
Quote from: RailGooner on March 19, 2017, 09:03:52 PM
No, I don't want to yet, I haven't finished having a pop at poor innocent and defenceless Dapol. When I first read Dr Bright's statement, I tried to take positives from it. But as I have reread it many times over the weekend, I see it for what it is: a stinking pile of faeces. So if you want to continue apologizing for Dapol @Howlin`baz (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=375) you should. And if I and others want to continue having a pop at Dapol, you should let us.
So your not happy then! :D
And nor am I. It seems Dapol have dropped this bombshell and run for shelter, not even coming out of hiding on their own 'Digest' to respond to posts. There is bound to be a wide range of opinions hitting this thread and they all ought to be respected regardless of whether they fit in with your individual one. I'm sure the Mods are keeping a close eye on us.
Quote from: newportnobby on March 19, 2017, 09:38:03 PM
I'm sure the Mods are keeping a close eye on us.
:whistle:
Paul
Quote from: escafeld on March 19, 2017, 09:52:16 PM
Dapol have been responding to posts of their Facebook page on Friday and yesterday morning
Fine if you enjoy FaceTube but myself and many others don't. They set up the 'Digest' with this quote.....
Welcome to The Dapol Digest!
The definitive source for Dapol product news.
This is Dapols official news and views site. You'll find the latest project updates and have the opportunity to interact directly with our project managers.Why don't they use their own media stage?
Out of curiosity does anyone know how this announcement is going down on that other forum (RMWeb)?
Quote from: newportnobby on March 19, 2017, 09:59:41 PM
Quote from: escafeld on March 19, 2017, 09:52:16 PM
Dapol have been responding to posts of their Facebook page on Friday and yesterday morning
Fine if you enjoy FaceTube but myself and many others don't. They set up the 'Digest' with this quote.....
Welcome to The Dapol Digest!
The definitive source for Dapol product news.
This is Dapols official news and views site. You'll find the latest project updates and have the opportunity to interact directly with our project managers.
Why don't they use their own media stage?
Out of curiosity does anyone know how this announcement is going down on that other forum (RMWeb)?
Well said NPN. Before I'd finished reading @Karhedron (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=207) 's quote here of Dr Bright's statement, I'd jumped over to the Digest. But that was eerily quiet, as it's increasingly been on matters N for some time. So I jumped over to the Dapol website, where I eventually find though it wasn't as easily as it should have been. I've checked the Digest a few times over the weekend. And I can't find the original statement on the Dapol website now. So it does seem like they've run off and hid.
Quote from: RailGooner on March 19, 2017, 09:03:52 PM
On Friday morning I read a statement from Dr Joel Bright, MD of Dapol. In that statement he took a large dump on many thousands of customers.
So in Joel's position what would you have done differently?
You take over a company which everyone admits had over-promised and under delivered before your arrival (including senior staff at the time of the over-promising). Do you:
1. cancel proposed models but keep quiet and hope everyone forgets about them.
2. cancel proposed models and be honest about it.
3. churn out models now at whatever state of development they are, and most likely get slated for a multitude of inaccuracies resulting in fewer sales of following models and potentially the bankruptcy of the company.
4. sink further funds into proposed models to fully develop the models (and most likely get slated for the resulting further delays), knowing that in the present market conditions you are unlikely to fully recover that extra cost which will ultimately lead to the bankruptcy of the company.
5. concentrate on a small number of model that are close to being ready for release and put the others on the 'back-burner' until market conditions are more favourable but keep quiet and hope customers are pacified by those you do produce.
6. concentrate on a small number of model that are close to being ready for release and put the others on the 'back-burner' until market conditions are more favourable and be up front and honest with your customers that this is what you are doing.
Quote from: escafeld on March 19, 2017, 10:10:47 PM
..
The Dapol website has been down quite a bit this weekend and yesterday they seemed to restore it from a backup which would be why Joels statement is no longer on there
...
How inconvenient for
that to happen and
this weekend too.
Quote from: PLD on March 19, 2017, 10:27:55 PM
Quote from: RailGooner on March 19, 2017, 09:03:52 PM
On Friday morning I read a statement from Dr Joel Bright, MD of Dapol. In that statement he took a large dump on many thousands of customers.
So in Joel's position what would you have done differently?
You take over a company which everyone admits had over-promised and under delivered before your arrival (including senior staff at the time of the over-promising). Do you:
1. cancel proposed models but keep quiet and hope everyone forgets about them.
2. cancel proposed models and be honest about it.
3. churn out models now at whatever state of development they are, and most likely get slated for a multitude of inaccuracies resulting in fewer sales of following models and potentially the bankruptcy of the company.
4. sink further funds into proposed models to fully develop the models (and most likely get slated for the resulting further delays), knowing that in the present market conditions you are unlikely to fully recover that extra cost which will ultimately lead to the bankruptcy of the company.
5. concentrate on a small number of model that are close to being ready for release and put the others on the 'back-burner' until market conditions are more favourable but keep quiet and hope customers are pacified by those you do produce.
6. concentrate on a small number of model that are close to being ready for release and put the others on the 'back-burner' until market conditions are more favourable and be up front and honest with your customers that this is what you are doing.
I'd have done it
earlier. Dr Bright became MD in 2010. For the previous 8 years he was a 'Shadow' Director.
Quote
Coupled with this statement is also an apology from me. Dapol as a company has undoubtedly over announced products in the past which has led to this situation. The tendency to be overly optimistic about development times and unrealistic about what can be achieved has been prevalent.
All during 15 years of his watch.
Quote from: RailGooner on March 19, 2017, 10:38:36 PM
Quote from: PLD on March 19, 2017, 10:27:55 PM
Quote from: RailGooner on March 19, 2017, 09:03:52 PM
On Friday morning I read a statement from Dr Joel Bright, MD of Dapol. In that statement he took a large dump on many thousands of customers.
So in Joel's position what would you have done differently?
I'd have done it earlier.
OK not unreasonable, but would that have left us in any different position today? You would just have "been dumped on" earlier; we still wouldn't have those models on the shelves and the same uproar from modellers who's worlds have apparently ended would have occurred 5/6/7 years earlier (do you think they would have calmed down yet?!?!)
From PLDF's list of options, I would be choosing No 6, which is near enough what Dapol are doing. And it appears to be a fit with the current commercial reality.
I have not seen the currently missing statement but I would also give unreserved and full apologies for both the lack of progress with some of the items over what seems in some cases to be a prolonged period. Also an explanation of why those delays have occurred. Especially so if, as Railgooner suggests, I had been MD or shadow director over most if not all of the period in question.
It is also pertinent for manufacturers to reflect on the extent to which such delays, and (whisper it quietly) price increases and quality issues, are of themselves a factor in diminishing the market for UK N gauge. Which, we are told, is not that great to start with.
Quote from: PLD on March 19, 2017, 10:47:22 PM
Quote from: RailGooner on March 19, 2017, 10:38:36 PM
Quote from: PLD on March 19, 2017, 10:27:55 PM
Quote from: RailGooner on March 19, 2017, 09:03:52 PM
On Friday morning I read a statement from Dr Joel Bright, MD of Dapol. In that statement he took a large dump on many thousands of customers.
So in Joel's position what would you have done differently?
I'd have done it earlier.
OK not unreasonable, but would that have left us in any different position today? You would just have "been dumped on" earlier; we still wouldn't have those models on the shelves and the same uproar from modellers who's worlds have apparently ended would have occurred 5/6/7 years earlier (do you think they would have calmed down yet?!?!)
Yes, of course that would leave us in a different position today, a very different position. And the obvious difference would be that I and others wouldn't have spent up to 7 years anticipating those models. Wouldn't have spent up to 7 years building up coach/wagon stock to suit those models. Wouldn't have spent up to 7 years planning and/or building a layout to suit those models.
Quote from: Sprintex on March 19, 2017, 09:52:59 PM
Quote from: newportnobby on March 19, 2017, 09:38:03 PM
I'm sure the Mods are keeping a close eye on us.
:whistle:
Paul
Amazed that they can see anything with the air in here so thick with conjecture and vented steam.
CFJ
Quote from: 47033 on March 19, 2017, 09:06:12 PM
Quote from: Sprintex on March 19, 2017, 08:16:18 PM
Quote"Projects such as the Class 50, Class 59, prototype HST, Battle of Britain and others are being delayed as result of this."
First post in the thread.
Paul
Thanks for pointing that out. I saw that and the title but judging by all the fuss it seemed like something far more serious was going on than simply a delay. Fact is, Farish has announced the MK2F coaches in their catalogue a long long time ago and still there is no word on them. Dapol have at least come forward to say there is going to be a delay on certain products and we get this. I thought I may have missed something.
I guess telling us there's going to be a lengthy delay really didn't do them any good. Damned if they do, damned if they don't. Personally I'll keep my fingers crossed that they eventually produce these models and more besides.
Dapol have form on this. They did exactly the same with the Pendolino and class 92; they were officially "put on the back burner", and they remain there. By saying cancelled it gives their competitors a clear opportunity. By saying delayed they are attempting to scupper anyone else who may have a go. But I'll bet you £20 we never see a 50 or a WC. I admire your optimism though!
"But I'll bet you £20 we never see a 50 or a WC. I admire your optimism though!"
NJee - we might see them, but I reckon your money is safe that it WON'T be from Chirk !
Like many others who seem to have read between the lines, I reckon the chances of seeing any further development in N Gauge from Dapol are so slim they could hide behind a blade of grass.
Ah yes, the "from Dapol" was implicit, I can imagine both appearing at some points through one channel or other.
What would be Dapol's response I wonder if they were offered a commission to build one of the deferred projects financed via crowdfunding?
Quote from: longbow on March 20, 2017, 07:43:13 AM
What would be Dapol's response I wonder if they were offered a commission to build one of the deferred projects financed via crowdfunding?
They would be wise to say "no" to the the BoB since on their own admission they do not have a working mechanism for it.
Quote from: RailGooner on March 19, 2017, 09:03:52 PM
No, I don't want to yet, I haven't finished having a pop at poor innocent and defenceless Dapol. When I first read Dr Bright's statement, I tried to take positives from it. But as I have reread it many times over the weekend, I see it for what it is: a stinking pile of faeces. So if you want to continue apologizing for Dapol @Howlin`baz (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=375) you should. And if I and others want to continue having a pop at Dapol, you should let us.
I must fully agree, but would add that there is an additional consideration. Ultimately, those of you venting steam (which will not change the situation) have the option of not buying any products from anybody who they feel has let them down. You have that option. If you feel that you could do a better job than the manufacturers, then please put your money where your mouth is and go into production. I would welcome any new entrant to of hobby.
Yes they did report issues with the new chassis design but it appears that was not the reason for its deferment.
No, but it's a huge unknown, it's been shelved for financial reasons. Crowdfunding may provide you a lump sum, or at least a guaranteed return depending on how the payment profile is structured, but if you don't have something as crucial as a chassis design what do you do in 2 years when you've spent everyone's money and still don't have one?
Seems an incredibly risky prospect, and the least likely of the "postponed" models to be picked up I'd have thought. Who else has proven they can deliver n gauge steam? Union Mills or Farish at this time?
It's hard to see why a switch to loco drive in a relatively spacious chassis would defeat an experienced N gauge manufacturer. I imagine if the funds and motivation were present they would find a way.
Quote from: longbow on March 20, 2017, 07:43:13 AM
What would be Dapol's response I wonder if they were offered a commission to build one of the deferred projects financed via crowdfunding?
No connection to Dapol but I imagine they would probably go ahead (depending on the exact terms they were offered). The advantage of commission work is that someone else takes the risk by providing the up-front costs for the R&D and tooling. Dapol then get a slice of the profits and/or possibly access to the tooling for future runs (depending on exactly what is agreed in the contract).
Quote from: woodbury22uk on March 20, 2017, 07:47:26 AM
They would be wise to say "no" to the the BoB since on their own admission they do not have a working mechanism for it.
Well, yes and no. They don't have the new drive train they were apparently keen on. However they do have their existing tender drive mechanism. IIRC, that is how the WC/BoB was originally planned to be powered. The Grange was driven this way and does not seem to have suffered in terms of sales for it.
In some ways, the Light Pacifics would be even better models for tender driving than GWR locos due to their enclosed cabs. I would certainly be happy with a tender driven model although I cannot speak for others.
Still, I suspect we will never know. :'(
My thoughts too - let's see...
The simple truth is that OO gauge model sell in greater numbers and there's less profit in N Gauge models which will cost roughly the same to develop and produce the tooling for.
Dapol's O Gauge models have done well as RTR models at a reasonable price (i.e. less than £300-£500) are few and far between. That market's been starved and is now expanding as it's fed. The trouble is that they're just making small locos at the moment. I'd guess that sales would drop off once they answer the calls to produce something larger and prices go up.
I do think that some of their product decisions haven't helped their cash flow. Ignoring their choices of initial liveries, would they have sold more HSTs if all trailer types were available at the start rather than having to wait years for the buffet and TGS (although this was perhaps an early sign that Dapol were struggling with tooling costs). HSTs are something that Dapol could churn out for years in multiple liveries, yet they appeared to do as much as they could early on and then do nothing.
Similarly, there are wagons they could sell - we've still never seen an olive green Dogfish for example.
Happy modelling.
Steven B.
I agree that Dapol's production runs often seem a little curious, thinking about products that command an incredible premium when they crop up on the second hand market:
- Intercity Swallow 86s
- FGW mk3 buffets
- Grand Central mk3s
Others go for much more than they could be bought new
- FEA spine wagons (despite being wrong!), both GBRF and Freightliner
- some of the Dogfish(?) wagons
You'd think many of those would be quick wins, particularly the wagons and coaches, they could do a batch for a quick injection of cash.
I hope the Farish streamlined Merchant Navies are flying off the shelves now.
I postponed buying one (rule 1 purchase) because I was waiting for the Dapol Spam Cans to be reviewed before making my choice.
Best regards,
Joe
I hope so too, as it may bring us a rebuilt version sooner rather than never.
Quote from: joe cassidy on March 20, 2017, 12:48:45 PM
I hope the Farish streamlined Merchant Navies are flying off the shelves now.
I postponed buying one (rule 1 purchase) because I was waiting for the Dapol Spam Cans to be reviewed before making my choice.
Best regards,
Joe
It's precisely what I did, Joe.
http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=6331.msg436180#msg436180 (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=6331.msg436180#msg436180)
Thinking about easy wins, I am surprised no plain black br Manor or hall with small tender in plain green with gwr roundel.
Graham
Or indeed a Hall in lined BR black.
Quote from: newportnobby on March 20, 2017, 02:03:59 PM
Quote from: joe cassidy on March 20, 2017, 12:48:45 PM
I hope the Farish streamlined Merchant Navies are flying off the shelves now.
I postponed buying one (rule 1 purchase) because I was waiting for the Dapol Spam Cans to be reviewed before making my choice.
Best regards,
Joe
It's precisely what I did, Joe.
http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=6331.msg436180#msg436180 (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=6331.msg436180#msg436180)
I'm going to have to bash a BoB from one too. I've spent years researching and modelling coaching stock for a specific train. My enthusiasm for this project has taken repeated knocks with the continual delays of Dapol's WC/BoB. But I'm determined to finish it now.
Quote from: leachsprite4 on March 20, 2017, 10:46:41 PM
Thinking about easy wins, I am surprised no plain black br Manor or hall with small tender in plain green with gwr roundel.
Graham
They did a plain Manor, and there was the old Ixion one too.
Quote from: longbow on March 20, 2017, 11:14:54 PM
Or indeed a Hall in lined BR black.
They did produce one a fair while ago, but it needed work as it was the grey wheeled era.
Quote from: njee20 on March 20, 2017, 09:55:25 AM
I agree that Dapol's production runs often seem a little curious, thinking about products that command an incredible premium when they crop up on the second hand market:
- Intercity Swallow 86s
- FGW mk3 buffets
- Grand Central mk3s
Others go for much more than they could be bought new
- FEA spine wagons (despite being wrong!), both GBRF and Freightliner
- some of the Dogfish(?) wagons
You'd think many of those would be quick wins, particularly the wagons and coaches, they could do a batch for a quick injection of cash.
I wouldn't base business decisions on second hand prices. Would give an idea of what a few desperate persons are willing to pay but no clue to the depth of the market.
Not much point to making a re-run of a thousand only to sell a couple of dozen.
Maybe a strategy used by game console makers could be used to maximise profits. A new loco is released in limited numbers at say £350 then slowly reduced to £120 over 12 months with restricted release rate.
CFJ
For those of you who were convinced that Dapol pulled its statement because of public backlash or some sinister motivation, it seems, as escafeld suggested, the statement disappeared because the website crashed and was restored from an earlier version without it. It has been replaced now, with a note to that effect:
"My Apologies, our web server was down over the weekend and the post was lost."
http://dapol.co.uk/index.php?route=blog/post&post_id=43 (http://dapol.co.uk/index.php?route=blog/post&post_id=43)
I would urge those of you who are foaming at the mouth with anger to take a deep breath, take the statement for what it was -an honest explanation for why a proposed product line has been dropped-, and move forward. There isn't much to be done about it now and there isn't much sense in blaming a company for putting its long-term survival and well-being before the fulfillment of every proposed product.
QuoteMaybe a strategy used by game console makers could be used to maximise profits. A new loco is released in limited numbers at say £350 then slowly reduced to £120 over 12 months with restricted release rate.
That might work for consoles but invariably crowdfunding has to offer incentives to early adopters for the risk and the long wait.
Quote from: Elvinley on March 21, 2017, 12:33:24 AM
Quote from: leachsprite4 on March 20, 2017, 10:46:41 PM
Thinking about easy wins, I am surprised no plain black br Manor or hall with small tender in plain green with gwr roundel.
Graham
They did a plain Manor, and there was the old Ixion one too.
I recall the ixion plain black Manor but not the dapol version? I appreciate they did Ditcheat in lined black but the lining wasn't quite right.
Graham
I'm just glad the class 33 made it into production !
Quote from: Elvinley on March 21, 2017, 12:34:25 AM
Quote from: longbow on March 20, 2017, 11:14:54 PM
Or indeed a Hall in lined BR black.
They did produce one a fair while ago, but it needed work as it was the grey wheeled era.
Yes, the wheels were grey, the route allocation disc was blue instead of red, the boiler lining continued over the firebox (which was incorrect for BR liveries) and the particular loco they produced lacked fire-iron tunnels.
The first batch of Halls were a bit of a mess really. Beautiful models and mechanically decent but IIRC, all 4 variants had livery errors. The GWR models had BR-style cab lining, the BR models had GWR-style firebox lining and the unlined GWR variant was a livery only carried by the oil-burning "Garth Hall".
I have fixed a few of the errors on mine and it looks a lot better. At some point I will get around to fabricating some fire-iron tunnels.
Quote from: Karhedron on March 21, 2017, 09:10:50 AM
Quote from: Elvinley on March 21, 2017, 12:34:25 AM
Quote from: longbow on March 20, 2017, 11:14:54 PM
Or indeed a Hall in lined BR black.
They did produce one a fair while ago, but it needed work as it was the grey wheeled era.
Yes, the wheels were grey, the route allocation disc was blue instead of red, the boiler lining continued over the firebox (which was incorrect for BR liveries) and the particular loco they produced lacked fire-iron tunnels.
The first batch of Halls were a bit of a mess really. Beautiful models and mechanically decent but IIRC, all 4 variants had livery errors. The GWR models had BR-style cab lining, the BR models had GWR-style firebox lining and the unlined GWR variant was a livery only carried by the oil-burning "Garth Hall".
I have fixed a few of the errors on mine and it looks a lot better. At some point I will get around to fabricating some fire-iron tunnels.
Yes it wasn't the best looking loco straight out of the box. I painted my wheels and weathered mine.
I recall seeing the pics of it on your layout, does it run alright, then?
Quote from: Bealman on March 21, 2017, 09:39:19 AM
I recall seeing the pics of it on your layout, does it run alright, then?
I have 3 halls, and all are good runners.
Cheers,
Alan
If I were to suggest one thing that Dapol could do to build my brand loyalty, it would be a ready supply of spare parts, and a quick and efficient repair service (for non-warranty repairs), rather than new products.
Cheers Jon :)
Quote from: leachsprite4 on March 21, 2017, 06:33:28 AM
Quote from: Elvinley on March 21, 2017, 12:33:24 AM
Quote from: leachsprite4 on March 20, 2017, 10:46:41 PM
Thinking about easy wins, I am surprised no plain black br Manor or hall with small tender in plain green with gwr roundel.
Graham
They did a plain Manor, and there was the old Ixion one too.
I recall the ixion plain black Manor but not the dapol version? I appreciate they did Ditcheat in lined black but the lining wasn't quite right.
Graham
Sorry, you are right. There is an online shop selling a black Manor with a picture of an unlined Grange.
Quote from: Bealman on March 21, 2017, 09:39:19 AM
I recall seeing the pics of it on your layout, does it run alright, then?
Yes like Al, I found they tend to be good runners. I had some issues with hot motors and noisy running but things settled down.
Just been informed by Hattons that the Dapol J72 production has been cancelled. :beers:
But now it is apparently definitely cancelled.... :beers:
Yes, that's right, but I haven't heard anything recently about Garish J72 progress!! Anyone have any further information?
:beers:
Quote from: escafeld on March 21, 2017, 06:19:16 PM
Quote from: austinbob on March 21, 2017, 06:05:37 PM
Just been informed by Hattons that the Dapol J72 production has been cancelled. :beers:
The J72 was put on hold in June last year and was only going to be looked at again after the development of the Class 50,59,68 & BoB
https://digest.dapol.co.uk/forum/n-gauge-models/steam/j72/915-j72
I think we all sussed when Farrish announced theirs that whichever wasn't first to market would be dropped...
In this case though, is it official from Dapol that it is cancelled or is it Hattons assuming or admin 'male chicken' (changed by forum)-up?? The do have previous form on that...
Quote from: PLD on March 21, 2017, 06:54:57 PM
Quote from: escafeld on March 21, 2017, 06:19:16 PM
Quote from: austinbob on March 21, 2017, 06:05:37 PM
Just been informed by Hattons that the Dapol J72 production has been cancelled. :beers:
The J72 was put on hold in June last year and was only going to be looked at again after the development of the Class 50,59,68 & BoB
https://digest.dapol.co.uk/forum/n-gauge-models/steam/j72/915-j72
I think we all sussed when Farrish announced theirs that whichever wasn't first to market would be dropped...
In this case though, is it official from Dapol that it is cancelled or is it Hattons assuming or admin 'male chicken' (changed by forum)-up?? The do have previous form on that...
When I asked Joel about it a few months ago, his reply was that, while not officially canceled, it was shelved after Farish announced it as well. The assumption was that Farish could bring it to market first (ha!). He said they would look at it again, but I'm guessing they officially canceled when they made the decision to cut other proposed classes which they were pushing forward with. Personally, I think this is a shame as Dapol could certainly have gotten it to market first, judging by Farish's 'progress' and I'd have liked an NER one! I don't think Farish are in any grand hurry with theirs, as it didn't make the list of announced items this year and there has been no update on it or it's potential delivery from Farish since its announcement.
Quote from: N-Gauge-US on March 21, 2017, 07:31:02 PM
Quote from: PLD on March 21, 2017, 06:54:57 PM
Quote from: escafeld on March 21, 2017, 06:19:16 PM
Quote from: austinbob on March 21, 2017, 06:05:37 PM
Just been informed by Hattons that the Dapol J72 production has been cancelled. :beers:
The J72 was put on hold in June last year and was only going to be looked at again after the development of the Class 50,59,68 & BoB
https://digest.dapol.co.uk/forum/n-gauge-models/steam/j72/915-j72
I think we all sussed when Farrish announced theirs that whichever wasn't first to market would be dropped...
In this case though, is it official from Dapol that it is cancelled or is it Hattons assuming or admin Large Chicken :)-up?? The do have previous form on that...
When I asked Joel about it a few months ago, his reply was that, while not officially canceled, it was shelved after Farish announced it as well. The assumption was that Farish could bring it to market first (ha!). He said they would look at it again, but I'm guessing they officially canceled when they made the decision to cut other proposed classes which they were pushing forward with. Personally, I think this is a shame as Dapol could certainly have gotten it to market first, judging by Farish's 'progress' and I'd have liked an NER one! I don't think Farish are in any grand hurry with theirs, as it didn't make the list of announced items this year and there has been no update on it or it's potential delivery from Farish since its announcement.
This looks like the story of the Ivatt 2MT all over again. Dapol announced theirs. Farish then announced one and Dapol shelved theirs. Farish then took half a decade to get round to actually doing theirs...
This was also part of the reason why there has been reluctance to cancel competing projects by quite a few manufacturers since then - a common impression was that Dapol were "done rotten"....
Les
Edited because I dropped the reply in the wrong part of the post...
Hi,
Some development notes from the Dapol Website (under Technical \ Product Development \ N Gauge):
Class 142 - Awaiting Decorated Samples - Completion end of Q2
Class 68 - In tooling awaiting 1st shots mid Q2
HIA Hopper Wagon - going in to tooling May'17 - Completion end of Q3
MJA bogie box twin - on hold until after the HIA comes to market
Would be nice to see a progress chart similar to the one DJM has on his website so we can see what steps remain to be completed as well as what has been done.
Best regards
Iain
Awesome, pleased about the HIAs and hopefully the MJAs. I wonder if they'll increase the RRP on the HIAs given their staggering popularity in OO.
Quote from: Smiffy on March 23, 2017, 02:39:59 PM
Hi,
Some development notes from the Dapol Website (under Technical \ Product Development \ N Gauge):
Class 142 - Awaiting Decorated Samples - Completion end of Q2
Class 68 - In tooling awaiting 1st shots mid Q2
HIA Hopper Wagon - going in to tooling May'17 - Completion end of Q3
MJA bogie box twin - on hold until after the HIA comes to market
Would be nice to see a progress chart similar to the one DJM has on his website so we can see what steps remain to be completed as well as what has been done.
Best regards
Iain
I have been looking forward to the 142 and after reading the cancelations news over the weekend decided to look into where in the scheme of things progress was. It seems they have been waiting for the decorated samples for quite some time. Before Christmas I think, maybe the decorators are making sure they have the prints lined up properly unlike the oo class 68!
Browsing Dapol's website and the comments on there with regards to the recent announcement, I see that a suggestion for future N gauge models to be crowdfunded was summarily dismissed ?
Quote from: koyli55002 on March 24, 2017, 06:34:26 AM
Browsing Dapol's website and the comments on there with regards to the recent announcement, I see that a suggestion for future N gauge models to be crowdfunded was summarily dismissed ?
I can't blame Dapol for avoiding taking money up front by any method - can you imagine the fireworks if they missed a deadline!
Regards
Iain
Maybe so, but that still leaves me wondering where we as a fraternity stand with regards to future N gauge models.
Basically, most of the proposed new releases from Dapol have been unofficially "on hold" for years - this recent announcement just makes it official.
As I understand it, only those whose development had got to the tooling stage or beyond are to continue whilst the rest are "on abeyance until the economic conditions become more favourable" (if /whenever that may be ?).
At the same time, the inference of "jam tomorrow" by stating that the projects are on hold rather than cancelled means that any potential developer of these models has their feet nailed to the starting blocks by the fear that they may be "gazumped" ?
Quote from: koyli55002 on March 24, 2017, 08:49:02 AM
At the same time, the inference of "jam tomorrow" by stating that the projects are on hold rather than cancelled means that any potential developer of these models has their feet nailed to the starting blocks by the fear that they may be "gazumped" ?
What possible credibility would Dapol have if someone came along tomorrow with a ready-to-tool Class 50, and Dapol suddenly found the funds to tool theirs? Dapol have "paused" their development for lack of a suitable return on their limited funds, but they claim to have put a lot of thought in to this. A change of understanding overnight would undermine the whole of what they explained last Friday.The bigger question is whether, at 2017/2018 prices, enough of the world would beat a path to the door of whoever proposes a Class 50.
I suspect that the weak response to the HSDT online survey has convinced Dapol that the internet does not cast the net wide enough to capture sufficient interested people. Given the negative responses we see to their management of their own Collectors Club, taking funds in advance against a promise of delivery is not their forté, which really rules out them managing a crowd-funded project.
Quote from: woodbury22uk on March 24, 2017, 09:28:08 AM
I suspect that the weak response to the HSDT online survey has convinced Dapol that the internet does not cast the net wide enough to capture sufficient interested people.
While the model will be of limited interest, the way they did the expression of interest was hopeless. The initial offer was a complete set either with yellow panel or full yellow cab, which indicated a lack of research - the full yellow cabs only seem to have appeared when the power cars were in test use, after the full train had been disbanded - i.e. there would never have been an occasion when they worked with the full train.
They then later proposed doing power cars and coach packs.
With something like that, for an expression of interest to give anything approaching a reliable indication of likely demand the basic research and decisions on what to offer need to be made before going public with it.
Quote from: Smiffy on March 24, 2017, 07:31:28 AM
I can't blame Dapol for avoiding taking money up front by any method - can you imagine the fireworks if they missed a deadline!
Don't set deadlines then - as seems to be the case with the Revolution Pendolino. They want to get it right, and it's ready when it's ready. Provided there are regular updates about where in the process it is so that purchasers can see that it is in progress, and there aren't large delays between design and production, I can't see anyone having an issue with not having a specific deadline.
Quote from: davidinyork on March 24, 2017, 09:39:33 AM
Quote from: Smiffy on March 24, 2017, 07:31:28 AM
I can't blame Dapol for avoiding taking money up front by any method - can you imagine the fireworks if they missed a deadline!
Don't set deadlines then - as seems to be the case with the Revolution Pendolino. They want to get it right, and it's ready when it's ready. Provided there are regular updates about where in the process it is so that purchasers can see that it is in progress, and there aren't large delays between design and production, I can't see anyone having an issue with not having a specific deadline.
I disagree, unfortunately Dapol have a reputation for not communicating whereas Mike and Ben have worked very hard to keep us updated - and they still had comments fired at them because of the delays even though they clearly said the Pendolino would only come out when they were happy with it.
A more likely, but still I'd put money against it happening, is that someone decides Dapol are wrong and gets one of theses to tooling before announcing. Dapol have only invested in CADs and so would be very unlikely to reprioritise and go head to head.
Still think it seems foolish to drop the Class 50, as only two bodyshell variations (original and refurbished) are needed to allow a plethora of liveries that would keep a manufacturer in repeat business for years!
I can understand some reluctance to take on the Bulleid Light Pacifics - I'm not an expert on these but there seems to be an almost infinite variety of cab and tender styles (happy to be corrected) , so it would be hard to please everybody without massive tooling costs. A real pity, as these are probably the most needed steam locos in N.
Quote from: captainelectra on March 24, 2017, 10:38:09 AM
Still think it seems foolish to drop the Class 50, as only two bodyshell variations (original and refurbished) are needed to allow a plethora of liveries that would keep a manufacturer in repeat business for years!
I can understand some reluctance to take on the Bulleid Light Pacifics - I'm not an expert on these but there seems to be an almost infinite variety of cab and tender styles (happy to be corrected) , so it would be hard to please everybody without massive tooling costs. A real pity, as these are probably the most needed steam locos in N.
SECONDED !
Mindst you, they are still sticking by their statement that the project has not been dropped "per se" - just deferred.........
For another decade or so ?
Thirded..
Although the term Dapol are using is "in abeyance" which means a temporary pause.
I think that once they have worked through the stuff they already have in tooling, they will continue with their plans for the "in abeyance" items.. Dapol seem to have a lot of tooling at the moment which hasn't paid for itself yet...
Just my thoughts.
Cheers
Mark
Certainly that they are cancelling some things outright suggests they at least have an intention to start it up again in future. Or rather they're keeping their options open.
Quote from: scruff on March 24, 2017, 09:52:57 PM
I think that once they have worked through the stuff they already have in tooling, they will continue with their plans for the "in abeyance" items.. Dapol seem to have a lot of tooling at the moment which hasn't paid for itself yet...
I would like to think you are right but I have my doubts. I certainly agree that the current tooling backlog is probably causing a cash-flow issue. So much of Dapol's efforts have been focused on 00 and 0 gauge lately. All of the postponed models have been queue jumped by more recent models in the larger scales. Are they really going to be reactivated once the current batch of larger-scale items are finished or will they get bumped again? I would like to be optimistic but like many others, I remember the Pendolino and Class 92.
Quote from: scruff on March 24, 2017, 09:52:57 PM
I think that once they have worked through the stuff they already have in tooling, they will continue with their plans for the "in abeyance" items.. Dapol seem to have a lot of tooling at the moment which hasn't paid for itself yet...
That isn't what their press release says! The phrase used is "some previously announced and mooted projects will have to be put on abeyance until the economic conditions become more favourable"
It is difficult to see, given the EU situation, that ecomonic conditions are likely to become more favourable for quite a few years now.
And when they're admitting the larger scales are more lucrative. Why would you bother? From a business perspective.
As I posted in another thread dapol have over stretch them self and with producing other gauges ,but I can`t see the reason behind the class 50 ,it looks like things n gauge are slowly going south since dave Jones left or did he know something and jumped!!!!!!!!! Ps think again about joining dapol dire collectors club
Quote from: wizbit44 on March 25, 2017, 09:43:57 AM
As I posted in another thread dapol have over stretch them self and with producing other gauges ,but I can`t see the reason behind the class 50 ,it looks like things n gauge are slowly going south since dave Jones left or did he know something and jumped!!!!!!!!! Ps think again about joining dapol dire collectors club
Dapol collectors club was dire a year ago but has improved considerably. They actually deliver what they promise in the collectors club bumf and have had some pretty good club member models - the latest being the class 66 'Evening Star'. However, the delivery of this latest club loco has already suffered some delay (originally promised around Easter but could be 2-3 months later) so lets hope the timescale doesn't extend further.
:beers:
Re collectors club dapol not received much of anything in the last eight months ,only one enveloped with not much n gauge enclosed ! Dapol n gauge going down the pan lets blame brexit for a change ?
Quote from: wizbit44 on March 25, 2017, 09:43:57 AM
,it looks like things n gauge are slowly going south since dave Jones left or did he know something and jumped!!!!!!!!!
At least DJModels is now explicit about the 00 gauge models being needed to fund the N gauge locomotives and wagons, though the Mermaid and the Class 17 now seem to be in progress. You have to look at RMweb to see the latest news.
Quote from: wizbit44 on March 25, 2017, 10:01:24 AM
Re collectors club dapol not received much of anything in the last eight months ,only one enveloped with not much n gauge enclosed ! Dapol n gauge going down the pan lets blame brexit for a change ?
If you give Andrea a call at the collectors club, I'm sure she'll be able to sort out any errors or shortfalls in your club membership content. She is very helpful.
:beers:
Quote from: wizbit44 on March 25, 2017, 09:43:57 AM
As I posted in another thread dapol have over stretch them self and with producing other gauges
I don't think you can blame Dapol for spreading their bets. They've produced 00 stuff for longer than N anyway, at least as far as the 1980s. Dropped out for a while, came back with N, and now do 00 and 0 as well.
To be fair their 0 gauge stuff is really opening up that hobby, making it much more affordable than ever. Decent £200 locos were just unheard of until Dapol started making them. Their RTR wagons cost about as much as good value kits. It's really quite something!
Do bear in mind that development of the N gauge D6300 and the 'Western' models were both piggybacked onto the 00 versions. Without 00, would both of these excellent models have been produced as quickly?
Cheers, NeMo
If dapol have dropped the class 50 I think there will be other takes for this project , big mistake dapol ? Going off the dapol thing will we ever see tpm again
Quote from: wizbit44 on March 25, 2017, 09:43:57 AM
As I posted in another thread dapol have over stretch them self and with producing other gauges ,but I can`t see the reason behind the class 50 ,it looks like things n gauge are slowly going south since dave Jones left or did he know something and jumped!!!!!!!!! Ps think again about joining dapol dire collectors club
Seems unlikely as he set up his own venture doing all 3 scales...
Quote from: woodbury22uk on March 25, 2017, 10:06:39 AM
At least DJModels is now explicit about the 00 gauge models being needed to fund the N gauge locomotives and wagons
If memory serves me correctly from the first Bamber Bridge Meet Up in 2014 where Dave came along to give us a talk about his plans, Dave did say from the start that 00 models would fund the N gauge ones so I don't think it's a recent thing, Mike.
It's a shame that the new West Country and Battle of Britain classes have been put on hold, I was looking forward to seeing a Dapol loco
without a tender drive shaft and seeing what the new design team were capable of.
Hi, This might have been said but when I spoke to the bloke at the Dapol store at the Warley show, he said that the class 50 would be coming out in September at TINGS. So I thought the tooling was approved a while ago. I'm sure I have seen a prototype model in the Dapol cabinet at the shows. If that was the case the expensive part has been paid for.
Steve44
Confused I am.....
:hmmm:
Quote from: STEVE44 on March 25, 2017, 06:13:26 PM
Hi, This might have been said but when I spoke to the bloke at the Dapol store at the Warley show, he said that the class 50 would be coming out in September at TINGS. So I thought the tooling was approved a while ago. I'm sure I have seen a prototype model in the Dapol cabinet at the shows. If that was the case the expensive part has been paid for.
Nope. There's been a prototype 3D model floating around for ages, but tooling hasn't started. They were still tweaking CADs I think. Definitely not tooled. The party line has changed since Warley.
And the protestations that they are not pulling out of N gauge have about the same ring as those of a certain football club which exoressed the utmost faith in their manager ?
Quote from: koyli55002 on March 25, 2017, 06:59:53 PM
. . . a certain football club which exoressed the utmost faith in their manager ?
Nope, no idea ???
Paul
Quote from: silly moo on March 25, 2017, 12:36:40 PM
It's a shame that the new West Country and Battle of Britain classes have been put on hold, I was looking forward to seeing a Dapol loco
without a tender drive shaft and seeing what the new design team were capable of.
I feel the same, as I'm sure many more do.
All
I think Dapol are still well into N gauge
Class 68 in tooling
A lot of new HST sets and coaches coming
Quote from: Rabbitaway on March 25, 2017, 07:46:05 PM
All
I think Dapol are still well into N gauge
Class 68 in tooling
A lot of new HST sets and coaches coming
I think Dapol could move out of N gauge, or abandon steam locos that have caused them a few headaches. They could then concentrate on their OO, and particularly O gauge that seems to be gathering momentum and popularity.
Quote from: Sprintex on March 25, 2017, 07:01:27 PM
Quote from: koyli55002 on March 25, 2017, 06:59:53 PM
. . . a certain football club which exoressed the utmost faith in their manager ?
Nope, no idea ???
Paul
I think that's Leicester City
Speaking to two senior people separately at Dapol today the message is nothing is cancelled only delayed until they are economic to produce, or the market can sustain the necessary price in the current market.
They have found that N products are always left in the warehouse where as O and OO fly off the shelves, therefore the capital tied up in unsold stock is considerable and they cannot afford it, or at least need to limit it.
NB they were selling GWR Manors for £35 today due to overstock - I just happened to buy three :D
Did anyone get to Ally Pally ?
Report on another forum states that Dapol were having a "fire sale" of their N gauge range at half price or less, whilst having a showcase full of OO and O gauge.
If anyone did go, was there ANY N gauge in the showcase at all ?
I would have thought that the samples of those "continuing" N Gauge projects would have been in there somewhere.
Quote from: koyli55002 on March 26, 2017, 06:49:21 AM
Report on another forum states that Dapol were having a "fire sale" of their N gauge range at half price or less, whilst having a showcase full of OO and O gauge.
Absolutely not true. There's a Bargain Basement thread on what they had there; nothing out of the ordinary that you don't see on their monthly sales or the DCC 'less than perfect' bargain rail. So pannier tanks at £50 is nice, but hardly half price, and the £70 'Westerns' have been available for months, off and on.
As I've said elsewhere, you can't fault Dapol for promoting relatively new ranges (like the O stuff) that's making them a good return on investment. On the other hand, for a very small company, you could argue their lack of focus -- or put another way, anxiety to focus on the one thing making a healthy profit at the moment -- isn't sensible over the long term. Flexibility is fine, but if they jump from one "bubble" to another, always needing quick returns to stay in profit, sooner or later they'll make the wrong move. I find it hard to see how a small company like Dapol can develop good quality products across three scales simultaneously. But what do I know?!
RMWeb seems to be much less friendly to N gauge than this one, which is one reason I can't be bothered with it. I find that it's a lot like picking up a copy of 'Railway Modeller' and finding all the layouts featured are 00! So while there are some people who make postings there that I like to read, it's very rare I'll see anything there that isn't better and more fairly discussed here.
Cheers, NeMo
The post says:
QuoteFire Sale N gauge at Alexandria Palace today whilst showcasing their Lionheart 0 gauage stuff and 00 gauge EPs
Undercutting all their retailers with some uber bargains could be described as a fire sale, even if it's the sort of thing they do at major exhibitions. They also had new samples of O and OO models (including an EP of the 59). What new N gauge models did they show? Seems a wholly accurate statement to me.
RMWeb has a more impartial membership than here just by virtue of its diversity. Some may be anti-n gauge, but most here are anti anything else. It's a specialist forum, to call it fairer to N gauge is a little daft. I suspect you get the discussion you want. RMWeb gives you the market line.
Thanks for the clarification, Nemo.....thought I would check with someone who had been able to attend.
I have to agree with your thoughts regarding their "focus" too.
Don't get me wrong, folks - I hope Dapol DO stay in N gauge - but the omens don't look too favourable to me.
Quote from: njee20 on March 26, 2017, 08:33:39 AM
The post says:
QuoteFire Sale N gauge at Alexandria Palace today whilst showcasing their Lionheart 0 gauage stuff and 00 gauge EPs
Undercutting all their retailers with some uber bargains could be described as a fire sale...
No it can't, @njee20 (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=1147). A "fire sale" is a very specific thing. Originally the sales of goods after the shop or factory burned down, it now specifically means selling off stuff cheaply to create some cashflow and stave off immediate collapse or bankruptcy.
To suggest that Dapol is doing this is, as far as we know, completely wrong.
Cheers, NeMo
But to that end a "fire sale on n gauge" is a condtradiction in terms. You're being too literal. They were selling n gauge off very cheap and showcasing new O and OO.
No need to tag me when you're replying to me immediately either. I don't need 3 notifications!
This thread started out in an interesting way but I'm tired of all the sniping going on so it will remain in abeyance as far as I'm concerned :dighole:
Quote from: njee20 on March 26, 2017, 08:54:45 AM
But to that end a "fire sale on n gauge" is a condtradiction in terms. You're being too literal. They were selling n gauge off very cheap and showcasing new O and OO.
Nope, merely trying to help. Your use of "fire sale" was simply incorrect and implied Dapol were getting rid of their N gauge stuff because of financial difficulties. Dapol have recently posted on their Facebook page and elsewhere that they're going to be a bit more aggressive about unwarranted speculation on forums. I think something was said on RMWeb that they got wind of, and didn't like. Whether it was actually libellous others could say. But we should all be a bit more careful how we phrase things. :thumbsup:
Sure, they were showcasing 0 and 00. Right now, they seem to be very profitable for Dapol, and good luck to them, because developing those products can help N (witness the Dapol D6300 and 'Western' models for example).
If you're simply voicing disappointment with Dapol for not showcasing some new N gauge models at Alexandra Palace, then sure, I agree with you! :beers:
Cheers, NeMo
I didn't use it at all... I'm just quoting the what someone else said. In the context it was used (by someone else) a fire sale by your definition makes no sense. Cheers for the patronising condescension though!
I'm not voicing anything. It was someone else's quote.
Quote from: newportnobby on March 26, 2017, 09:47:12 AM
This thread started out in an interesting way but I'm tired of all the sniping going on so it will remain in abeyance as far as I'm concerned :dighole:
Quite agree with you.
Dodger
May I just make it clear that my initial post regarding the alleged "fire sale" was only in an attempt to receive some clarification of what had been displayed on the Dapol stand at Alexandra Palace, since I had been unable to attend ?
@koyli55002 (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=1353) in modern terms you are correct it was a fire sale,
They had cleared all the Manors which was good for them by the end of today.
Quote from: Nik96 on March 26, 2017, 10:43:54 PM
@koyli55002 (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=1353) in modern terms you are correct it was a fire sale,
They had cleared all the Manors which was good for them by the end of today.
Well, let us hope that it gives them some funds to "make the financial situation more favourable" ?
Personally, I fail to understand how a locomotive with a fifty year history can be "shelved", whilst still going ahead with a model of one which is barely in service, but then what do I know ?
Do you mean the 68? It's as Simple as they've spent the money already.
Quote from: njee20 on March 27, 2017, 06:14:43 AM
Do you mean the 68? It's as Simple as they've spent the money already.
And has recently become clearly apparent in Revolution's offerings there's more money to be made in modern image.
I think that's a bit of a leap. Modern models appear to be more successful in crowd funded ventures. That's not quite the same.
The 68s also offer the opportunity to sell another batch of Mk3 coaches in appropriate liveries. Despite their longevity, Dapol don't sell much rolling stock for the Class 50s, ironically Farish will benefit more in terms of rolling stock sales. Never underestimate the returns you can make by finding new ways to sell your existing offerings.
Quote from: koyli55002 on March 27, 2017, 05:47:38 AM
Personally, I fail to understand how a locomotive with a fifty year history can be "shelved", whilst still going ahead with a model of one which is barely in service, but then what do I know ?
Because there are already 2 RTR models of a 50 available (Farish and CJM). Even if you think the Farish model is terrible, it has still sold in considerable numbers.
Whereas there is no model of the 68...
As I've said previously the N gauge market is so shallow that (with a few exceptions eg 37/47/66/black 5/A3/A4 etc) you are potentially on a real hiding to nothing by duplicating an existing model.
Cheers, Mike
Quote from: Bingley Hall on March 27, 2017, 07:48:18 AM
And has recently become clearly apparent in Revolution's offerings there's more money to be made in modern image.
Hi there,
As has already been mentioned, I am not sure we can say there are more sales in modern image N, or just that those modelling the present day are more receptive to crowd-funding.
We should have first samples of the Class B tanker soon - which is squarely aimed at the late-50s/60s/70s/80s modeller - and I am wondering whether customers for this era want to see something tangible before they commit.
When we come to close the order book on this model we may have a more accurate idea of the relative size of the markets.
cheers
Ben A.
I expect to see a lot of new liveries and re-runs of liveries on existing tooling from Dapol. We might even see old tooling revisited.
The underlying Dapol problem is dead stock sitting in the warehouse. If you sell 2,500 of a 4,000 in the first three months and the rest takes two years to sell it that means hundreds of thousands of pounds of dead money. As I understand it new liveries and re-runs don't have to be ordered in such quantities.
True, but with all the tooling already incurred the marginal unit cost of ordering the extra 1500 will be much less than that of the initial 2500 so maybe that justifies carrying the extra stock.
Quote from: longbow on March 27, 2017, 12:12:23 PM
True, but with all the tooling already incurred the marginal unit cost of ordering the extra 1500 will be much less than that of the initial 2500 so maybe that justifies carrying the extra stock.
From what they were saying initial 4-5000 for a new tooling - thats the problem.
The working capital tied up in dead stock can sometimes break a business. Over the past 25+ years Exclusive First Editions issued thousands of 1/76 scale model buses. In recent years they also published a list of old models still in stock, which were over-produced in the hundreds. Many of these dated from far back in the mists of time, and basically no-one was going to buy them. They converted what they could into alternative versions sold as limited editions at relatively high prices. Their investment in new tooling died about 5 years ago, and last autumn they became insolvent and ceased trading. Bachmann bought the brand name and most of the tooling, but wisely steered clear of the old stock. Releasing the money tied up in dead stock can provide funds for new investment, and it is often sensible to take a low amount of cash by selling them rather than have them sitting in a warehouse where they cost money to store by taking up space and clogging up the operation.
Given the economics it's easy to see the temptation to over-order to get a lower unit price.
Off topic I confess but EFE stock was selling for the change in your pocket once the real stock clearance started just to get rid of them.
The idea of having rolling stock to match the locomotives you make isn't too far away from the ikea business model on the bed frames. They'll take a hit on one part, for example the frame itself, but make huge sums (in comparative terms) on the slats and a little more on the head/tail boards. it's a risk doing this but if you've tried to mix and match ikea you'll realise how they managed to make it work.
overall Ikea make a profit.
If the manufacturers could do the same...
isn't Hornby's railroad range their old tooling?
Quote from: Nik96 on March 27, 2017, 01:12:21 PM
isn't Hornby's railroad range their old tooling?
Not really. Some of it is, but there have been some new railroad models (steam locos), plus some of the older tooling is still in use for main-range products.
Hornby also have the ex-Lima tooling, much of which they still use.
In America shops and manufacturers used to do loyalty deals where you buy a loco and you get a stamp card with 12 spaces like Nero coffee cards. Each stamp gets you 20% off a matching wagon or coach from the same manufacturer and compatible for that loco.
Quote from: Nik96 on March 27, 2017, 01:12:21 PM
The idea of having rolling stock to match the locomotives you make isn't too far away from the ikea business model on the bed frames. They'll take a hit on one part, for example the frame itself, but make huge sums (in comparative terms) on the slats and a little more on the head/tail boards. it's a risk doing this but if you've tried to mix and match ikea you'll realise how they managed to make it work
Is that the same as the train packs that Farish sometimes sell, a loco + 2-3 coaches,
I wonder how successful these are ?
Quote from: broadsword on March 27, 2017, 02:14:59 PM
Quote from: Nik96 on March 27, 2017, 01:12:21 PM
The idea of having rolling stock to match the locomotives you make isn't too far away from the ikea business model on the bed frames. They'll take a hit on one part, for example the frame itself, but make huge sums (in comparative terms) on the slats and a little more on the head/tail boards. it's a risk doing this but if you've tried to mix and match ikea you'll realise how they managed to make it work
Is that the same as the train packs that Farish sometimes sell, a loco + 2-3 coaches,
I wonder how successful these are ?
I'd see it as more like producing a loco and coaches / wagons in a matching livery for separate sale, and discounting one item as a lost-leader in order that purchasers will buy the whole set. I can't really see the model train market being large enough to make this work, plus of course a given loco can normally be used with a wide variety of different rolling stock.
Quote from: broadsword on March 27, 2017, 02:14:59 PM
Quote from: Nik96 on March 27, 2017, 01:12:21 PM
The idea of having rolling stock to match the locomotives you make isn't too far away from the ikea business model on the bed frames. They'll take a hit on one part, for example the frame itself, but make huge sums (in comparative terms) on the slats and a little more on the head/tail boards. it's a risk doing this but if you've tried to mix and match ikea you'll realise how they managed to make it work
Is that the same as the train packs that Farish sometimes sell, a loco + 2-3 coaches,
I wonder how successful these are ?
It'd allow quick disposal of large volumes of carriages. Cumbrian mountain express comes with BSK, RMB and FK Mk1's three coaches less that have to be sold as individuals... How successful they are in terms of profit depends on how they price against buying like for like models individually.
Of course the sales gimmick is the throw-ins such as Ais Gill Signal box that (I believe) can only be obtained by purchasing the train pack.
Quote from: davidinyork on March 27, 2017, 02:23:32 PM
Quote from: broadsword on March 27, 2017, 02:14:59 PM
Quote from: Nik96 on March 27, 2017, 01:12:21 PM
The idea of having rolling stock to match the locomotives you make isn't too far away from the ikea business model on the bed frames. They'll take a hit on one part, for example the frame itself, but make huge sums (in comparative terms) on the slats and a little more on the head/tail boards. it's a risk doing this but if you've tried to mix and match ikea you'll realise how they managed to make it work
Is that the same as the train packs that Farish sometimes sell, a loco + 2-3 coaches,
I wonder how successful these are ?
I'd see it as more like producing a loco and coaches / wagons in a matching livery for separate sale, and discounting one item as a lost-leader in order that purchasers will buy the whole set. I can't really see the model train market being large enough to make this work, plus of course a given loco can normally be used with a wide variety of different rolling stock.
Are you thinking along the lines of the Kernow exclusive weed killer train? The tankers, coaches and class 20's.
Quote from: Nik96 on March 28, 2017, 12:35:09 PM
Are you thinking along the lines of the Kernow exclusive weed killer train? The tankers, coaches and class 20's.
That would be one example. A more general example would probably be HSTs as these are fixed-formation sets requiring specific coaches.
Quote from: davidinyork on March 28, 2017, 12:54:51 PM
That would be one example. A more general example would probably be HSTs as these are fixed-formation sets requiring specific coaches.
I wonder how much Dapol hurt their sales of the HSTs by releasing them in dribs and drabs making it hard to collect a complete rake in matching livery?
Quote from: Karhedron on March 28, 2017, 01:41:44 PM
Quote from: davidinyork on March 28, 2017, 12:54:51 PM
That would be one example. A more general example would probably be HSTs as these are fixed-formation sets requiring specific coaches.
I wonder how much Dapol hurt their sales of the HSTs by releasing them in dribs and drabs making it hard to collect a complete rake in matching livery?
Quite a bit, I expect - especially when some required coaches in certain liveries have still not appeared years after the rest, and there were issues with different batches not matching. Looks like they are releasing some of the missing ones this year, but the only indication is on retailers' websites - Dapol's own forum, despite claiming to be "the definitive source for Dapol product news" has no mention of them, and I received no answer when I asked on there a few days ago. Having that forum seemed to be a really good idea to start with, but if they are going to ignore it most of the time it's likely to have a negative effect on perceptions.
I'm inclined to ignore the digest now. No comments on their in response to questions about the BoB and J72 is available to comments on.
Also worth noting that in June 2016 on the digest it said they would be releasing collet full brakes, hmm really as I thought n gauge society owned the tools.
Graham