At all exhibitions many layouts will be running trains that aren't right. Either a totally wrong formation of loco and stock or running a set of trains that just that just don't fit together. Just wondering if NGF members prefer to see correct trains or don't care.
There will be differing views and everyone is entitled to have an opinion. Treat other people's views with respect. Nobody is right or wrong, it's just opinions I am interested in. What people do at home is entirely up to them but at exhibitions should we try to put on a realistic display?
My view is that keeping things moving is the most important thing for an exhibition layout but I do like to see trains that are reasonably correct at exhibitions. There will always be a level of "modellers licence" but I don't like to see say a blue & grey dmu on scene at the same time as a steam hauled train or a blue diesel pulling crimson & cream coaches. I also don't like to see straight "out of the box" stock being run. Out of the box stock looks so plasticky and needs a little darkening of the roofs if nothing else. Just wondering if I am being too picky on this?
I try to run reasonably accurate stock and train formations on my N gauge exhibition layouts. Having said that my other love is G scale trains and we are currently building a new G scale layout. There will almost certainly be trains from different continents on show at the same time on this layout. Some people will hate that. When I am running trains out in the garden fidelity to prototype doesn't seem to matter very much. As this G layout is meant to represent a garden railway rather than be a model railway I say it is merely representing the way most garden railways are run. Just wondering what others will think of that - will it be seen as just silly playing trains or will people think garden railways look like fun?
I am genuinely interested in hearing different views to get a cross section of opinion but please don't put down anyone who has a different view to your own. Nobody is right or wrong.
When at exhibitions I try to run reasonably prototypical train formations and definitely have things running pretty much all of the time.
It's only my pet hate(others will disagree) but I don't like shunting layouts where nothing really happens for ages. That's just my opinion.
It's ok for me anyway because 95% of my locos and stock fit in my time period anyway.
G-scale is a bit odd because it's really more about running trains in the garden than modelling a specific place and time. That said, a friend of mine has an LGB-based garden railway that is largely modelled on the Rhaetische Bahn, and while some stuff is "just for fun" there's a lot he's built and runs that is more accurate for a certain part of Switzerland.
The thing about N is that it allows prototypical trains. If realistic shunting operations are your thing, I'd argue OO/H0 or even O are better bets. Individual wagons and locos look better, slow-speed running is easier, and there's more detail you can add to cameo scenes to make them more rewarding to explore even when trains aren't moving. Personally, I feel N-scale end-to-end layouts are more about compromises forced onto the modeller by lack of space, rather than N being a particularly good size for such layouts.
The smaller size of N works in its favour on round-and-around layouts where you can model through trains of various sorts, whether little branchline trains or long expresses. That being the case, some effort to model "realistic" trains is worthwhile if you want to play to N's strengths.
Cheers, NeMo
I was at Locomotion, Shildon yesterday for the Shildon MRC 'Big Exhibition' and saw some strange formations running. Two Deltics double heading a five coach train was the most way out one I saw.
At home Rule 1 applies and I run some properly strange trains on occasion. However I do try to run nearly correct formations most of the time.
I agree with Port Perran. I like stuff moving, and I like vaguely prototypical trains. I can forgive using a wrong TOC's loco, or an unprototypical flow for the geographical location or something, but I'll lose interest if I see an HST power car on a coal train (hypothetical example).
Totally up to the operator though, I'd never say anything to an exhibitor, I'm certainly not exhibiting (nor good enough to do so), so if a layout doesn't interest me, for any reason, then I'll go elsewhere.
I did see someone at TINGS with a Eurostar, decent length, 12 or 16 coaches, but assembled totally wrong. The centre coaches were at one end, the buffets together elsewhere in the train. That strikes me as a shame. But again, each to their own!
I was looking at German layouts at TINGS and I wouldn't have been able to tell you if what I was seeing was correct or not - it just looked 'right'. I think as long as it looks 'right' it's ok. For example I saw an OO layout a few years ago with some grey pre-tops 16t wagons in a rake with some brown MCV 16t wagons hauled by a blue class 37 with orange cantrail stripe - it might not be factually correct but it looks 'right' and the exhibitor's layout is all the more better for it with a longer, more realistic rake.
Another vote for having stuff moving being the number one priority.
Other than that it depends on the layout. If it's meant to be a realistic model of an actual era and location then prototypical trains are preferred, although on most steam layouts I wouldn't have a clue what ran where and when anyway! If it's more a "loosely based on" layout then run what you like within reason, maybe not double-headed Deltics or HST PCs on freight trains but mixing it a bit is fine. If it's purely a freelance layout then run what the hell you like ;)
I think there's a place for every type of layout at exhibitions, if you don't like it then move on and look at something else. Sometimes though the "fun" layouts provide some good entertainment :thumbsup:
Paul
We could if only the manufacturers would sell us the correct stock :hmmm: Brian
Quote from: Byegad on October 09, 2016, 10:38:04 AM
... Two Deltics double heading ...
https://www.flickr.com/photos/98237420@N03/9511376008/in/photolist-fuuhHw-eaAp4q-4FmMTb-5BxzXj-aZmTPc-a2MBXB-4FmMWh-M8Ca3r-evyFg6 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/98237420@N03/9511376008/in/photolist-fuuhHw-eaAp4q-4FmMTb-5BxzXj-aZmTPc-a2MBXB-4FmMWh-M8Ca3r-evyFg6)
Personally I'd like to see prototypical trains for the layout. However this is, and should be, up to the operator regarding just how prototypical they wish to be.
The second problem is stock. Using my own modelling preference of 1930's LNER as an example (simply because this is the area I know the most about):
- Due to impoverish nature of the company, a high proportion of pre-grouping stock was kept in front line service for much longer than many of the other railways (its estimated that over 60% of passenger stock running in the 1930's was build prior to 1923).
- RTR and kits only cover a tiny fraction of the stock required to represent typical trains of that period.
- Wagons fall into a similar category as passenger stock - Mike J's efforts on NOEL with the Scotch goods is a marvel in scratchbuilding and hacking.
- Again with locomotives; across all steam eras and regions, only a small percentage of locomotives built are represented either rtr or in kit form.
I've found researching what would have been seen during a typical day in north London fascinating and I've over just scratched the surface.
Referring to the length of a train; there seems to be a generally accepted rule of thumb that the length of a train should not exceed one third of the total viewing area of the layout to look proportional. If a 12 coach train and locomotive is approximately 6' that would require a layout of 18' (assuming you agree with the above statement). I do think that longer trains look more at home on the larger exhibition layouts but I've also seen some lovely compact layouts that have pulled off mainline running as well.
Going back to my own modelling, I can accommodate a maximum of nine Gresley coaches and a loco (and my layout is much smaller than 13.5'!). For most trains of the period, this is more than acceptable but for a 'prototypical' Flying Scotsman rake I will need to decided which coaches can be omitted while retaining the flavour of the train. Similarly I have no hope of representing an 80 wagon coal train! How prototypical are my long term intentions?
I think that the layout builder/owner should set the criteria and find the balance between prototypical and what they can actually achieve. Even if they are exhibiting, only they can decide how successful they have been in achieving their aims; unless they are trying to recreate an accurate portrayal of an actually location on a specific date and that would require an exhibition goer with a very good knowledge of the subject.
As someone who attends maybe 20+ exhibitions per year my first priority is N gauge layouts. If nothing moves in the first 2-3 minutes I move on, especially if it's one of those 20ft long monsters with 4 main running lines and minimal scenery ::) I do like to see what I believe to be prototypical trains although my lack of knowledge of accurate train formations means I can be easily misled. Being a transition era modeller I think I can at least pick out incorrect liveries, though.
At home, I do not subscribe to Rule 1 and try to run what I would like to see at exhibitions within the limits of my budget. As such, I will generally purchase weathered versions of locos rather than have a go myself and instantly diminish the 2nd hand value of a loco. At the end of the day, I may have to sell said loco to enable purchase of of another release so try to keep them as they came in the box. I confess to running a Blue Pullman as it was such a good buy/excellent runner/iconic DMU and have also ordered a Poppylino as (a) I wanted RevolutioN Trains to succeed and (b) it may be a good investment should I decide not to keep it.
In my opinion N gauge locos do not have the room for decent size speakers so sound in N to me is a no-no, especially as so much of what I see at shows is either out of sync with the speed of the loco or so tinny as to be useless. However, I would also hate to be stuck next door to a bigger gauge layout with sound all day as I'd probably end up on a murder charge!
I agree that things should look right, but if it's not exactly 100% correct it wouldn't bother me - perhaps that's because I really don't know any better!
Bear in mind though that not everyone enjoys building kits of rolling stock (or even scratchbuilding it) so rely purely on what's available RTR. Given that restriction, it's virtually impossible to model most locations/timescales with 100% accurate stock AND have a reasonable variety of trains (you could easily model a small rural 1980's station & run nothing but DMUs all day; it'd be accurate, but pretty boring to watch!).
This topic is quite timely for me, as my layout is going out for the first time next Sunday, and I need to decide on what stock I'm going to run. Or more specifically, what trains I'm going to make up, since I don't have enough stock & will therefore run pretty much everything I've got!!! Loco-wise that's LMS steam, late-crest BR steam, a couple of green diesels, and DoH in preserved maroon livery; coaching stock LMS stanniers & suburbans, BR surburbans, crimson & cream Mk1s, and maroon Mk1s. Goods stock covers everything from pre-war PO coal wagons to 1960s BR bauxite. To the general public I'm sure it will all seem perfectly fine running together, though anyone who knows anything about railways would disagree.
Hope it all goes well next weekend.
One way of running a model railway is to say these are the trains that would have been seen over the years. This allows an LMS train to go through and then a BR train next etc etc. That works for me so long as different eras don't cross. I don't like to see obvious howlers such as a diesel pulling open wagons with private owner names on them, usually in pristine condition.
Going back to the G scale layout I expect we will be running 1:29 standard gauge stock and 1:22 narrow gauge stock at the same time as well. All USA stock except for a few items. Does that sound bad? These items look ok together as they are pretty much all the same size, and being American stock, they don't look obviously wrong to me. In fact the 1:22 coaches go rather well with the 1:29 diesel. And from time to time I will also run my 16mm scale British outline live steamer as well! For garden railway types this is completely normal but others may think it a bit strange.
Just think about the famous painters and artists. Some are almost photographic in their work while others are more 'suggestive' in what they present to the world. Others are so way out that it could be difficult to tell which was the painting and which the pallet! I'm sure the same kind of thing applies in our hobby. That's the reasoning behind my own work in progress back story. If I can look at a layout and get the feeling (impression) of looking at a railway and a landscape, I'm a happy chappie. In point of fact, a superbly detailed, perfectly reproduced, heaving with realism, model gives me a completely different feeling. Just as good, but different for sure.
I think we encompass 'realism' and 'impressionism' and all in between, just as the art world does. Long may it be so.
Quote from: Zogbert Splod on October 09, 2016, 02:17:19 PM
Just think about the famous painters and artists. Some are almost photographic in their work while others are more 'suggestive' in what they present to the world. Others are so way out that it could be difficult to tell which was the painting and which the pallet! I'm sure the same kind of thing applies in our hobby. That's the reasoning behind my own work in progress back story. If I can look at a layout and get the feeling (impression) of looking at a railway and a landscape, I'm a happy chappie. In point of fact, a superbly detailed, perfectly reproduced, heaving with realism, model gives me a completely different feeling. Just as good, but different for sure.
I think we encompass 'realism' and 'impressionism' and all in between, just as the art world does. Long may it be so.
Very well said that man.
What a superb analogy. Good point well made.
I love to see models made to the ultimate degree of accuracy, and viewing layouts where all is as it should be/as it was 'back in the day', is always a pleasure and fills me with awe.
But there's always more than one way to enjoy a hobby, so whatever is exhibited is fine by me. I might not always like all I see, but if it gives the creator(s) pleasure, who am I to argue?
Prototypical train formations are good when the layout is big enough, but sometimes having a full length train can highlight how small or compromised a layout is... to me it always looks ridiculous if a train is so long that it's dissappearing off one side of the layout before it has finished emerging from the other :no:
Fully agree with the "if it looks ok" school of thought. I haven't seen any real howlers at serious exhibitions but, sadly, many otherwise excellent layouts are let down by trains running at ridiculously high and un-prototypical speeds, and with acceleration and deceleration rates that would make your ears bleed.
Quote from: Western Exile on October 09, 2016, 06:21:52 PM
I haven't seen any real howlers at serious exhibitions but, sadly, many otherwise excellent layouts are let down by trains running at ridiculously high and un-prototypical speeds, and with acceleration and deceleration rates that would make your ears bleed.
I would say that about half the N gauge layouts I have seen this year have not been running reasonably prototypical trains. The most common fault being mixing locos and stock from different eras in the same train.
I agree about speeds and acceleration but I'm not sure I would want to see an unfitted freight travelling along a big layout at a true scale 15mph.
For me it depends to an extent on how you "sell" the layout.
If you claim it to be a 'faithful scale replica of the Prototype' there is no excuse for that not including running the correct rolling stock.
Some shortening of train lengths is probably acceptable (e.g. 7-8 coaches representing a 10-12 coach prototype formation or 20-30 coal wagons in place of 50+ prototype) provided it is of an appropriate type for the layout - if it is supposed to be a 1930 GWR branch line I would expect a Prairie or Pannier with a B-Set; I do not expect to see a Deltic hauling BR mk1s...
On a more 'generic' layout, yes, as several have already said, keeping something moving is of course priority 1, but there is no reason that and running prototypical formations should be mutually exclusive... Some of the mis-mash mixed-up trains you do unfortunately see are simply down to either naivety or lack or research or plain laziness... It is no harder to hook-up a dozen EWS hopper wagons behind your Class 66 than a dozen 10ft private owner wagons, so why do we so often see the latter?!?
Personally when viewing I like to see the personal touch of their railway universe (multi-verse in some cases), I see it like the distinction between the big 4 or earlier even when applied to BR modern or TOC modern.
If trying to run trains in prototypical fashion is their theme then I would hope they have it right but even the occasional train wouldn't be setup in the textbook configuration.
I follow like others the school of thought "if it looks right" approach, and the truth is over the years what is a prototypical train???
10 years ago if I ran a Deltic on a GBRF service on a modern layout I would have been moaned at and its happened.
The only time I think you have to try and be a prototypical as possible is when you have modelled and actual real location in a set era, but even then you have some room for a bit of something different.
I have been witness to some extreme rivet counting, which almost left me in tears a layout at the Manchester model exhibition the layout a steam era and based on a Lancashire depot and had a stable of LMS engines when one bloke started kicking off that a particular engine and I mean that exact engine was never used up north although the class was widely used by LMS and everyone just stared at him one of the guys just looked at him after a moment of shock at his reaction just replied " :censored: off you sad man"
I think there should be a reasonable degree of accuracy on exhibtion layouts, or just be frank and say its a train set and I run whatever I fancy...either approach is OK with me :)
The "problem" with accuracy is that the more you do know, the more "wrongs" you see..... Ignorance is sometimes bliss ;)
Quote from: acko22 on October 10, 2016, 11:58:32 PM
I follow like others the school of thought "if it looks right" approach, and the truth is over the years what is a prototypical train???
10 years ago if I ran a Deltic on a GBRF service on a modern layout I would have been moaned at and its happened.
The modern network seems good for all kinds of implausible Rule 1 stuff :D
I think for exhibition layouts "plausibility" is key, after all no matter how big the layout there will be compromises and it's impossible to get every single detail absolutely correct.
I would like to run prototypical trains but have a lot to learn about their formation. In the beginning I bought stock that appealed to me visually, buying private owner wagons based on their design and colour. I'm a bit like that with locos too.
Over the years I've read a lot in books, magazines and on the internet and my trains are beginning to look a lot more prototypical.
My layout is a rule one preservation line so I can run what I like but I do like to try and get individual trains right, the research done is adding to my railway knowledge.
When I fronted up at Wigan as a bonus during an unexpected trip two years ago (documented elsewhere on the forum), I was delighted to find Fence Houses in attendance.
However, trains weren't running more than they were running, and despite the accuracy and excellence of the modelling (I grew up a mile away from that station, in the same period that the layout depicts), it very quickly palled and I moved on.
I found the operators quite rude and aloof, which didn't help. They were probably stressed because things weren't working, but their rudeness surprised me.
But sticking to the OP, I'm all for running prototypical rakes. :thumbsup:
I like to get the details right on the trains I run, for me this is part of the whole setting and flavour. Having said that, my own layout is set in a specific location (albeit with a fictional station) so I know what sort of stock would have run there.
Other people build layouts with a different purpose. If someone builds a layout in Anytown, Somewhereshire to allow them to run all their Rule1 stock, that is fine too. As long as the layout and stock is true to itself then it creates a coherent scene. An Auto-train with 'GWR' lettering on the side will stick out like a sore thumb on layout otherwise set firmly in the 1930s but would be fine on a Rule1 layout or one set in the 1940s.
I do agree that I like to see something moving. I am all in favour of a realistic sequence of operations but not with leaving prototype-sized gaps between those operations. There will be times on many layouts when the operator(s) seen to sort out fresh stock or grab some refreshment but planned inactivity for its own sake is just boring IMHO.
I like and agree with almost everything that has been said on this thread.
But I really like was Zogberts art analogy. I have long thought that railway modelling ought to be regarded as an art, whatever that means. I like the ideas of Impressionism and realism being discussed. I would go slightly further and suggest that for some of us, we attempt to tell a story. Or even live within that story, we imagine ourselves as drivers or signalmen or passengers or whatever. I love the way some layouts are presented in theatre type displays with sets and stages to tell their stories.
How real and accurate those stories are is not of concern to me. But they do need to be believable. I can't recognise the difference between air brakes and vacuum brakes, so if the rake is set up wrong, it wouldn't bother me. But when I'm watching 'proper' drama, professional drama, it really annoys me if the setting is supposedly Victorian and the trains running in the background are from the 1950s.
On the other hand, some sort of futuristic sci fi train running in the background can still be believable, even though it's fiction.
So for me, all the layout as whole, has to be believable, not accurate. And I think like beauty, believability is in the eye of the beholder.
Cheers
Kirky
You should maybe visit MONA in Hobart. Google it? It is an out there art museum which is about 3 stotries underground. I found it scary and will not visit again, even though it is Tasmania's premier tourist attraction.
Quote from: Bealman on October 11, 2016, 11:12:34 AM
You should maybe visit MONA in Hobart. Google it? It is an out there art museum which is about 3 stotries underground. I found it scary and will not visit again, even though it is Tasmania's premier tourist attraction.
One man's art is another man's railway?
'Scary' is one word for some of the exhibits on the MONA website. 'Out there' is another. And then there's 'weird'.
But in all cases I found myself repeating one particular term in my head as I clicked my way through the odd, the strange, and the sometimes downright rude exhibits, and I believe it is a term that should apply to any exhibited model layout: 'interesting'. You can be as prototypical as you like, but if it ain't interesting.......... :sleep: :sleep:
Quote from: Chris Morris on October 09, 2016, 09:55:34 AM
My view is that keeping things moving is the most important thing for an exhibition layout but I do like to see trains that are reasonably correct at exhibitions. There will always be a level of "modellers licence" but I don't like to see say a blue & grey dmu on scene at the same time as a steam hauled train or a blue diesel pulling crimson & cream coaches.
If you're at home then anything goes. If you're exhibiting then I think you should make more of an effort to model the trains more accurately. Where you do model the more unusual take some photos to prove what you've modelled.
For example:
Blue loco on crimson & cream Mk1s (http://flickrhivemind.net/blackmagic.cgi?id=18835867802&url=http%3A%2F%2Fflickrhivemind.net%2Fflickr_hvmnd.cgi%3Fmethod%3DGET%3Bsorting%3DInterestingness%3Bphoto_type%3D250%3Bpage%3D1%3Bnoform%3Dt%3Bsearch_domain%3DTags%3Bphoto_number%3D50%3Bsort%3DInterestingness%3Btag_mode%3Dall%3Btextinput%3Dcream%252Cmk1%3Bsearch_type%3DTags%3Boriginput%3Dcream%252Cmk1%23pic18835867802&user=&flickrurl=http://www.flickr.com/photos/38589162@N00/18835867802)
or
steam loco next to blue/grey DMU, with second in background (http://www.nwrail.org.uk/nw1002a.htm) (about two-thirds down the page).
Happy modelling,
Steven B.
I think a lot of people get "Train Spotting" mixed up with "model railways"...
It's a hobby, for fun... if you want real life trains, then go and look at the real railways... Even then the thing is, in real life you might, once in a blue moon see old trucks being moved by a more modern train, even if it is just to take them to the breakers...
The idea of a model exhibition is to show off the modellers expertise at being able to reproduce something that is pleasing and entertaining, in a reduced scale... for the entertainment of a group of people who like to see toy trains running round a realistic looking track, and raise some funds for some suitable cause.
While there are many on here that may be able to list off all the "Real life" train and rolling stock combinations, and which trains did and did not go with what, a lot of us do not have the faintest idea, and more importantly, even more people who will be paying to come into the exhibition, to entertain the kids on a weekend, will definitely not have one iota.. They just want to see a nice looking train pulling some carriages, along a nice bit of track, and don't have the slightest worry about what colours or shapes they are.
I can remember as a kid, when we went to an exhibition, spending most of my time looking for the little hidden delights, like the lady sun bathing nude on the roof, and the fire men all using binoculars to look at her, instead of fighting the fire... the hotel that when you looked through one of the windows, the bed covers were moving up and down, the "A team" in barn behind a farm welding up a tank, Waldo sitting on a bench in a station and several people pointing to him. They are my memories, the trains that were running round it were just the icing on the cake.
The only trains I really remember were the ones where a guy had these fantastic little brass trains, and all the drive shafts turned, or the pump truck where the little people seemed to be actually powering it, or the totally un-prototypical Thomas the tank engine pulling a load of trucks with Tanks, search lights, missiles, and helicopters on them.
So personally I feel the average "non-train spotter" person paying for them and their family to go in to a model show, will want to see things moving and looking good, and want to see details and things they will remember, not worrying if one set of trucks does not have the right coloured wheels for the loco pulling it...
Thanks for all the interesting and useful responses.
My new N gauge layout is a caricature of Aller Junction in the early to mid 1960s and all my stock fits this location and period. There is still a problem in that a lot was changing during that time. This scene is fine for 1962/3 but there were very few steam workings after 1963 and pretty much every diesel had a yellow warning panel by the end of 1963. Western Enterprise was painted Maroon in 1964.
(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/44/3123-111016165326.jpeg) (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=44395)
But I also want to run this - a livery that did not appear until well into 1965.
(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/44/3123-111016165501.jpeg) (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=44396)
And this - the full yellow front did not appear until 1967.
(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/44/3123-111016165625.jpeg) (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=44397)
So bearing in mind that this is a reasonably serious attempt to capture a real place at a fairly specific period in time, do fellow forum members think I should:-
1. just run them all at the same time and not care
2. run them but make sure they don't appear "on stage" at the same time
3. not allow these items to be on the layout even in the storage lines at the same time at all?
I'm thinking option 2 is best but it would be interesting to hear others views.
Quote from: Chris Morris on October 11, 2016, 05:03:59 PM
So bearing in mind that this is a reasonably serious attempt to capture a real place at a fairly specific period in time, do fellow forum members think I should:-
1. just run them all at the same time and not care
2. run them but make sure they don't appear "on stage" at the same time
3. not allow these items to be on the layout even in the storage lines at the same time at all?
I'm thinking option 2 is best but it would be interesting to hear others views.
I think you're right to go for options one and/or two. My own modelling period is fairly fluid being from 1929 to 1939, this is to allow me to model a range of locomotives and liveries that would never have been seen together. For example the Q2 and Raven A2 would have both been long withdrawn by 1939 and the lovely D2s and D11s were all supposed to be painted in lined black after 1928 (although I have photographic evidence of green examples lasting until at least 1930). Personally, as my layout will not be for exhibition use, I'm happy to run them all at the same time but mainly sticking to prototypical trains for the time period the locomotive represents - I believe that the late David Jenkins referred to such formations as 'funny trains'. Luckily for me much of the stock I plan to model will be appropriate for most periods. There will be some stock that won't be appropriate; things like the Chivers CCT kit would be wrong behind anything not appropriate to late 1939.
Even a prototypical layout such as Copenhagen Fields utilises a wide variety of stock from different time periods, from pre-grouping days to the late 1930s, and you can often see these running at the same time during exhibitions (although hauling prototypical trains for the locomotive).
At the end of the day it's your layout and rule one can always apply! :D
Chris, I think you have answered your own question here. What anyone else thinks or may comment upon is rather academic, and as this thread proves we all have our own individual viewpoints which may or may not agree with your own.
You are obviously happiest with your option 2, so go with your heart and be true to the concept of your creation - which is superb btw - upon which you, and only you, set the rules.
And as a matter of interest, I agree with your option 2 - flexibility without being either overly stringent or lackadaisical.
Interesting discussion.
I live in California and exhibitions here not nearly as frequent as in the UK and the layouts are also almost exclusively giant modular layouts of varying quality and - when the modules are assembled together - of varying homogeneity. The club I belong to is one of the better ones with most modules depict the scenery of the US pacific northwest. It's not common to see a 16'x36' N scale layout where all the modules look all right next to each other, but for the most part ours does.
And yet since I run only British outline, my stock is grossly out of place. I don't care, however, and to be honest the feedback I've gotten from the paying public is they are curious about what the heck I'm running since they've never seen a Western before (for example).
I could run a single HST power car pulling Mk1 coaches over here if I wanted and even my fellow club members would have no idea that such a consist was wrong. But I don't. I do my best to make any formation I run correct, and my usual method is to assemble what I've got on track match a picture of an actual revenue earning train.
We had a former club member who liked to attach 60 cabooses (of different roads) behind a Union Pacific DD40AX Centennial with a boxcar on the very back. Amusing, sure, but I have to admit I really thought it was dumb.
Matt
Referencing Chris's question re Aller Junction.
I would definately go with Option 2 - I would fret far less about time than I ever would about place, witihn a few years anyway.
Quote from: Lazy-Ferret on October 11, 2016, 02:54:18 PM
The idea of a model exhibition is to show off the modellers expertise at being able to reproduce something that is pleasing and entertaining, in a reduced scale... for the entertainment of a group of people who like to see toy trains running round a realistic looking track, and raise some funds for some suitable cause.
That rather depends on the aims and philosophy of the exhibition organisers - the purpose of the show can be any or all of Entertain, Educate, Inform and Inspire in varying proportions.
For some shows your 'Run Anything' policy and liking of novelties is perfect, at others, prototype fidelity is the order of the day - you pays your money, and make your choice of which shows to visit but shouldn't deny others their (different) choice...
Quote from: Lazy-Ferret on October 11, 2016, 02:54:18 PM
While there are many on here that may be able to list off all the "Real life" train and rolling stock combinations, and which trains did and did not go with what, a lot of us do not have the faintest idea, and more importantly, even more people who will be paying to come into the exhibition, to entertain the kids on a weekend, will definitely not have one iota.. They just want to see a nice looking train pulling some carriages, along a nice bit of track, and don't have the slightest worry about what colours or shapes they are.
As with some previous comments, that reads as though you see 'prototypical fidelity' and 'being entertaining' as mutually exclusive. I don't see why a layout can't be both. Why can the correct matching stock not be as interesting as a random mix? Why not run the appropriate combination of stock in an entertaining manner - surely that is the best of both worlds and will appeal to both ends of the spectrum?
Quote from: Chris Morris on October 11, 2016, 05:03:59 PM
Thanks for all the interesting and useful responses.
My new N gauge layout is a caricature of Aller Junction in the early to mid 1960s and all my stock fits this location and period. There is still a problem in that a lot was changing during that time. This scene is fine for 1962/3 but there were very few steam workings after 1963 and pretty much every diesel had a yellow warning panel by the end of 1963. Western Enterprise
But I also want to run this - a livery that did not appear until well into 1965.
And this - the full yellow front did not appear until 1967.
So bearing in mind that this is a reasonably serious attempt to capture a real place at a fairly specific period in time, do fellow forum members think I should:-
1. just run them all at the same time and not care
2. run them but make sure they don't appear "on stage" at the same time
3. not allow these items to be on the layout even in the storage lines at the same time at all?
I'm thinking option 2 is best but it would be interesting to hear others views.
I also would favour option 2. If all the stock is appropriate for the location, only the most pedantic would quibble at at a 5 years or so time span.
If you are really clever and put some thought in to it you could even organise a sequence so that the trains run in historical order. I've seen it done a few times and could be very interesting if it covers a period in which there were significant changes of livery, motive power or traffic.
Perhaps the most important thing is how you describe your layout.
Using a GWR layout above as inspiration for the example.
If you say your GWR layout is set between 1950 and 1970 then why is anyone complaining if two trains which wouldn't have been seen together are seen together if they fit that description. Most people only have two track so if they want to keep it looking realistic the have a rough idea of which trains belong to which timescale and don't run those from the extremes together like others have said. If someone is complaining about that level of detail I would guess that are either tiring to be helpful and suggest corrections to you or are not your friend.
Alternatively if your GWR 1950-1970's layout has London underground stock alongside Eurostars and American diesels then why did you specify that it was a GWR 1950-1970's layout?
(There are of course exceptions.
Running a Thomas around when the kids are watching tends to be a crowd pleaser and show, in my eyes, that the operators are aware of who is watching and want to put on a show and entertain.)
However if you said it was a layout based on a 1960's GWR station running anything and everything then why are people complaining.
---
With rearguard to length, if it looks right... We cant all have big layouts and don't all want branch lines. Keeping some basic logic, expresses are longer than locals, works fine. I would rather see a range of different types of coaches or wagons pass than wait 10 minutes for a mega train of coal hoppers to crawl past.
Which leads me to agree with others that something going on is important. I have no time for realistic timetables where a train only appears every 15min.
---
My end goal is along way off to go to an exhibition with my layout.
I will admit to being quite picky and strict however the way I see it if I was to go tomorrow;
If some one makes a request I will try to accommodate it.
I want a few trains out of my era such as the prototype HST and scotrail push pull set so of course I am going to run them to show them off from time to time. (If my plans to butcher mk3 Kitchen cars work out there will be a few out of era trains being run around by me with a big grin on my face.)
A couple of the people I would ask to be operators are into N Gauge and I would consider it poor form (and hypocritical if I am showing off my specials) not to let them run some of their trains even if they are completely out of era and style. If they are helping run the layout the least I can do is let them run something they want.
What I would do however is write in the description that there are some visiting models as a get out clause to point any one who wants to be picky.
CaleyDave,
Makes a great assessment of it above my final thoughts on this are:
You cant please everyone but if you can please more than you don't then its a good start point.
Who do you want to please? Personally if I had a choice between a 5 year old and a grumpy rivet counter I know where my efforts would go!
And the one which is the reason we do this hobby is what pleasures you? If been a prototypical as possible is your thing then great but if you want to run other things and make it a mix then what's the problem.
I favour running regional stock,over a wide time period,on a layout loosely based on a real location but Rule 1 applies so I will run what ever takes my fancy at times. :P
Quote from: oreamnos on October 11, 2016, 05:44:35 PM
We had a former club member who liked to attach 60 cabooses (of different roads) behind a Union Pacific DD40AX Centennial with a boxcar on the very back. Amusing, sure, but I have to admit I really thought it was dumb.
And if I saw that I would think "ooooh American Train, big loco, Union Pacific, I like the colour" and enjoy watching it trundle by ;)
Yes. Theres no excuse now with all the stock thats available. It was different in the days when all ye got was a brake third and a Composite.
I prefer seeing things as they should be, there is one layout that really bugs me on the circuit, a large 00 terminus station where you can see, Chiltern, First Great Western, northern, scotrail, Anglia One, London Midland, cross country and Arriva trains Wales liveried DMUs in there. If they picked a couple of similarly located companies the layout would go from a 4/10 to a 8/10. Then you see layouts like Banbury which is pretty much spot on.
I have been known to search for pictures of weird combinations in the approximate area to our layout and have modelled them. That way when people complain you can show them the picture and prove them wrong!
If at home you want to run a deltic on a rake of milk tanks or a steam loco on a train of Mk 3, go for it.
I'm not going to be happy paying £10 to see a 'trainset layout' type layout at a show. I want to get some inspiration when I go to a show, I have done the 'trainset' layout and want to move on from it. Sorry if that sounds harsh but that's the way I feel.
Keeping something running is the most important thing about exhibiting. People will generally stand watching a layout for between 3-5 minutes. If they like it they will come back and spend another 10+ minutes looking at the details and all of those hidden bits, at bigger shows who have regularly 3-4 deep because we always try and keep something moving, even if it is just a 153 going down the branch because something has gone wrong on 1 (or usually all of) the mainlines. Being able to run a full 16 coach sleeper is a help as it keeps the kids amused trying to count them as it goes flying past.
Alistair
Well, I suppose the answer to this is "My layout, my rules" But if you are exhibiting a layout, I think at least an attempt at authenticity is required. Sometimes I wonder if a layout is a model of a railway or just a model railway or worse still a toy trainset! How many enthusiasts and/or modellers actually know how a real railway is worked? May i suggest three publications that may help. (1) BR Rule Book (1950) (2) Working time table for the relevant period and area being modelled and (3) Appendix to (Said) Working Timetable. The latter in particular is a goldmine of information as to operation.
I'd also recommend Bob Essery's books on model railway operation and any of the marvellous (and surprisingly readable) "District Controllers View" series from Xpress Publishing.
Just when I was going to make a remark about how it could be quite expensive to run prototypical trains, especially if you had to build kits to make up some of the rolling stock and buy great big rakes of wagons, I saw a picture of a preserved Duchess loco and her support coach off on a jaunt.
I have seen lots of pictures of Tornado and her support coach too, so you can buy a big express steam loco and will only need one coach :D
Quote from: silly moo on October 29, 2016, 07:56:07 AM
Just when I was going to make a remark about how it could be quite expensive to run prototypical trains, especially if you had to build kits to make up some of the rolling stock and buy great big rakes of wagons, I saw a picture of a preserved Duchess loco and her support coach off on a jaunt.
I have seen lots of pictures of Tornado and her support coach too, so you can buy a big express steam loco and will only need one coach :D
That depends entriely on what sort of trains you're running. Many branch line trains were two or three coaches. A mandatory freight might run with NO wagons at all. While the west coast main line ran 14-15 coach trains in steam days in the modern era, they tend to be shorter. (Pendolinos are either 9 or 11 coaches)
There are no doubt prototypical trains for everything under the stars.
Locos hauling a single brake van feature heavily in my steam based DVD collection. Many due to close/closed branch lines were visited initially by 'brake van specials' carrying enthusiasts.
One of my DVDs shows 20, yes 20, class 08s being moved around a shed (Crewe, I think) with just one of them under power. The wheel slip was quite amusing!
Towards the end of steam, it was not unknown to see a tender engine hauling a single brake composite. I have seen photos of such services on the both the WR and SR.
I'd have to say that when I attend a train show I'm not so worried about the prototypical aspect of what is being run, I suppose in part because I don't have an in depth knowledge on the subject. I do like to see well crafted layouts though. Myself, at home I have an interest in both European as well as British stock and my layout will no doubt be a rule 1 as it progresses. It is after all something that I am creating for my enjoyment.
Having said that, there are those that do enjoy running prototypical trains and running real railway operations and that is fine as well. I like to see what comes out of peoples imaginations and enjoy looking at the photos / videos of what others have done. If I had my way I would have two layouts with the English Channel in the middle but just don't have that much room available!
I suppose in my mind, if I see something that I like, I don't want to exclude it from my wish list based upon it's era etc.........and I can't criticize people for enjoying the hobby in their own way.......
Quote from: longbow on October 29, 2016, 12:08:00 AM
I'd also recommend Bob Essery's books on model railway operation and any of the marvellous (and surprisingly readable) "District Controllers View" series from Xpress Publishing.
Knowlegable as Bob Essery is, (Former Saltley fireman ect) and while his book is useful in terms of adjusting reality to model, the three publications I mentioned are official railway publications and are the best starting point for anyone wanting to replicate prototype operation. I have not read the 'District controllers view' books but they look as if they may be useful. Especially to anybody with no actual railway experience. But at all times, remember, Hey, its a hobby and meant to be fun.
Those without a railway background are likely to find WTTs and the BR Rule book rather dry. Do try the District Controller books, which are not only a fountain of knowledge on operations and train formations but also very readable.
Quote from: longbow on October 31, 2016, 11:27:08 PM
Those without a railway background are likely to find WTTs and the BR Rule book rather dry. Do try the District Controller books, which are not only a fountain of knowledge on operations and train formations but also very readable.
actually, theyre not. They are a mine of useful information. and even if you model a 'fictitious' location there is still much that can be used.
I found the working timetables for the line where my layout is set to be very useful for creating an operating sequence. I may not always follow the timetable but it is nice to know I can if I want.
The trains I run may not be absolutely accurate but I try to ensure they are at least plausible; I try to ensure my 'fast' freights have more bauxite-painted, fitted stock than the slow 'pick-up' goods trains.
I've done a little guesswork for some of the trains. There's one train from Grimsby so I guess that would include processed fish products (fresh fish traffic was worked under passenger and parcels classification) either in insulated vans or containers. Having seen pictures of the mineral trains I know these were often a mix of open mineral wagons.
The detective work of marrying various sources including WTT, photographs and written accounts is all part of the fun of the hobby for me.
I have a question about protypical trains and private owner wagons, I have quite a big collection of brightly coloured private owner wagons.
I can, if I feel in a rule one mood, make up a brightly coloured rainbow train.
I wonder if wagons were ever really painted in such brightly coloured liveries or if they are produced in model form by manufacturers to make train sets appealing?
:NGaugersRule:
Quote from: silly moo on November 04, 2016, 05:33:09 AM
I have a question about protypical trains and private owner wagons, I have quite a big collection of brightly coloured private owner wagons.
I can, if I feel in a rule one mood, make up a brightly coloured rainbow train.
I wonder if wagons were ever really painted in such brightly coloured liveries or if they are produced in model form by manufacturers to make train sets appealing?
When new - Yes they would have been, but they didn't last that way for long... they would rarely (if ever) be cleaned, and appart from some of the bigger private fleets only repainted if there was a change in ownership.
So varying degrees of dull and dirty over the factory finish is most realistic...
It does make you wonder why they were painted such impractical colours but then again there were steam era coaches with white roofs 😀
As today, it was about brand identity. A brightly painted livery was a form of advertising in itself.
There would certainly not have been any brightly coloured five or seven
Plank wagons around after the Second World War. I don't like to see these wagons pulled by BR liveried locos because it is just so wrong. PO wagons always seem like a turn of century sort of thing. I don't know how
manywould have been seen in the 1930s and what state they would have been in.
Thanks for the interesting contributions. My layout will be running stock that fits between 1963 and 1967 which is a shift forward of about three years. Surprisingly there were quite a few changes over this short period. My crimson and cream coaches are now surplus to requirements and a Brush type 4 and Western with full yellow panel have been added to the stock. There will still be the odd steam working but this will be fairly rare as steam had all but disappeared from South Devon by the end of 1963.
As for other layouts, I do like to see an effort to run trains that fit reasonably well together. All to often a really great layout is spoiled (for me) by mixing stock from completely different eras. I also dislike seeing unweathered stock straight out of the box as it just looks too plasticky. I think the look of the stock as well as the way it fits together is important. Of course if a layout is of a subject that I have no knowledge, such as Japanese trains, I will love it because I am completely ignorant of what it should look like.
I bought most of my brightly coloured wagons when I first started out and knew very little about railways. As my layout depicts a preserved railway I can get away with brightly coloured wagons in good condition.
I usually put together a really brightly coloured train to go behind Thomas the Tank Engine at shows. ;D
I still have enough wagons to put together a reasonably prototypical train too.
I notice that Farish put what look like suitable wagons in their sets but Hornby used to do a set with a blue diesel and brightly coloured private owner wagons no doubt because they are appealing to children.
No wonder beginners get confused.
Quote from: silly moo on November 04, 2016, 10:13:14 AM
No wonder beginners get confused.
Not just beginners, Veronica :no: :-[
Quote from: silly moo on November 04, 2016, 10:13:14 AM
I bought most of my brightly coloured wagons when I first started out and knew very little about railways. As my layout depicts a preserved railway I can get away with brightly coloured wagons in good condition.
I usually put together a really brightly coloured train to go behind Thomas the Tank Engine at shows. ;D
I still have enough wagons to put together a reasonably prototypical train too.
I notice that Farish put what look like suitable wagons in their sets but Hornby used to do a set with a blue diesel and brightly coloured private owner wagons no doubt because they are appealing to children.
No wonder beginners get confused.
No, probably not! According to Ronnie Cockburn of the CRA, Most Private Traders waggons were painted Grey, Black or red oxide. Lettering was either plain white or black. What was sometimes seen was that one waggon may have been given extra decoration if a constructor was trying to show off their ability. As an example there was a set of Alloa Coal coy lithograph sides produced, I think by Hamblings which was yellow with black lettering. According to Ronnie, Alloa Coal Coy. waggons were red oxide with white unshaded lettering. Also, not directly relevant but Ronnie insisted that these were correctly called "Private TRADERS Waggons" as few were actually owned by the companies but rather by leasing agencies or even the companies who built the waggons (Such as Pickerings and Hurst Nelson) who would then lease the waggons to the private traders. Ronnie researched this subject over many years with the intention of publishing abook on Scottish Private Traders Waggons' but due to health issues and advancing years the project has been taken over by another chap who published a similar book on English waggons. I believe the publication of the book is immenent. Check out the book on English waggons as well.
Quote from: silly moo on November 04, 2016, 10:13:14 AM
I bought most of my brightly coloured wagons when I first started out and knew very little about railways. As my layout depicts a preserved railway I can get away with brightly coloured wagons in good condition.
I usually put together a really brightly coloured train to go behind Thomas the Tank Engine at shows. ;D
I still have enough wagons to put together a reasonably prototypical train too.
I notice that Farish put what look like suitable wagons in their sets but Hornby used to do a set with a blue diesel and brightly coloured private owner wagons no doubt because they are appealing to children.
No wonder beginners get confused.
I think models of preserved railways will become more and more popular. You can pretty much run anything you like. It can also be nostalgic . I remember working on the Severn Valley as a volunteer 46 years ago!
veronica;
I think there is more than a little truth in the comment that brightly coloured wagons are made to attract children.
One of the BachFar team told me that ISO containers were effectively the 'new' Private Owner vehicles for the modern era, being generally brightly coloured which they hoped might encourage children.......
Martyn
Quote from: Chris Morris on November 04, 2016, 09:29:33 AM
There would certainly not have been any brightly coloured five or seven Plank wagons around after the Second World War. I don't like to see these wagons pulled by BR liveried locos because it is just so wrong. PO wagons always seem like a turn of century sort of thing. I don't know how many would have been seen in the 1930s and what state they would have been in.
Certainly true as far as Coal / mineral wagons were concerned. They were 'pooled' under the control of the Ministry of Supply at the outbreak of WW2, after which maintenance was to the absolute minimum to keep the wagon usable and any repainting necessary would have been in austerity plain grey. In 1948 they were taken into BR ownership and any painting was in standard Grey (unfitted) or Bauxite (fitted). Often just a patch was repainted on which
Some specialised wagons such as tankers were a little different and branded examples could still be seen but would mostly have worked in 'block' trains so while bright colours would be possible,
mixed colours were less likely.
If i can add another comment. Some pre groupingh railway companies frowned upon Private Traders waggons Most Traders waggons in the west of Scotland were registered on the Caley as the Sou West were not particularly friendly towards them. The NER was famously dead against them and carried coal in their own hoppers as unloading was by staithes or coal drops
Quote from: Chris Morris on November 04, 2016, 02:16:05 PM
I think models of preserved railways will become more and more popular. You can pretty much run anything you like. It can also be nostalgic . I remember working on the Severn Valley as a volunteer 46 years ago!
Always a slightly odd concept I think. If you want to run anything, then do, no need to justify it. Doing so under the auspices of "preserved railway" seems a bit odd to me! Not least as layouts are often then far more complex than any preserved railway would be! It could be done quite well - would be interesting to set one in a modern landscape, steam era stock juxtaposed with lots of modern vehicles and buildings. Never seen that though.
Quote from: njee20 on November 07, 2016, 06:39:04 PM
Not least as layouts are often then far more complex than any preserved railway would be! It could be done quite well - would be interesting to set one in a modern landscape, steam era stock juxtaposed with lots of modern vehicles and buildings. Never seen that though.
I seem to recall Ollie3440 of this parish succeeded in this with his 'Sheaf Valley Railway'
Quote from: violets49 on November 07, 2016, 02:52:01 PM
If i can add another comment. Some pre groupingh railway companies frowned upon Private Traders waggons ... ... The NER was famously dead against them and carried coal in their own hoppers as unloading was by staithes or coal drops
As common carriers, the railways couldn't refuse to move private owner wagons over their systems so despite a reluctance to take responsibility for the wagons, they would still be seen.
In the case of the NER, it wasn't so much anti privately owned wagons as such but pro the efficiencies to be gained by larger capacity wagons and mechanised loading/unloading that lead to the use of the 18 and later 20 ton hoppers in place of the traditional 8-12 ton wagons for coal traffic... There were still numerous examples of pvivately owned wagons of other types to be seen on NER metals.
But they could, and did refuse to register them
As far as an exhibition layout is concerned:
1. If a train is to terminate at a station and the loco run around before heading back where is came from, is it better not to fit tail lamps, or to have one fitted at each end of the train. Both are wrong as far as the BR Rule Book is concerned but which is the lesser of two evils? I'm leaning towards fitting lamps to both ends.
2. Is it OK to have Blue-Ribbon quality models in the same train as Poole era models at an exhibition? I'd like to model a WCML that is made up of a Mk3 DVT, Mk3 buffet and Mk2 FO & TSO coaches. I have the passenger carriages as Poole era models (albeit upgraded with blackened wheels and interiors) but would have to run them with the much more modern Dapol DVT. Is this an acceptable compromise or would there be less grumbles from the public if I forked out for a rake of the new Farish Mk2Fs as and when they're available?
Are there any other modelling compromises that would be frowned upon by exhibition visitors?
Happy modelling.
Steven B.
Quote from: Steven B on November 18, 2016, 12:37:43 PM
As far as an exhibition layout is concerned:
1. If a train is to terminate at a station and the loco run around before heading back where is came from, is it better not to fit tail lamps, or to have one fitted at each end of the train. Both are wrong as far as the BR Rule Book is concerned but which is the lesser of two evils? I'm leaning towards fitting lamps to both ends.
2. Is it OK to have Blue-Ribbon quality models in the same train as Poole era models at an exhibition? I'd like to model a WCML that is made up of a Mk3 DVT, Mk3 buffet and Mk2 FO & TSO coaches. I have the passenger carriages as Poole era models (albeit upgraded with blackened wheels and interiors) but would have to run them with the much more modern Dapol DVT. Is this an acceptable compromise or would there be less grumbles from the public if I forked out for a rake of the new Farish Mk2Fs as and when they're available?
Are there any other modelling compromises that would be frowned upon by exhibition visitors?
Happy modelling.
Steven B.
I don't think it is possible to say as each of us will see things differently and will find that different thinks grate on us. For instance someone who spent their career working on catering coaches will notice if the the coach next to the catering coach is incorrect but the rest of us won't.
Most layouts don't have tail lamps, many don't have loco lamps.
I use the latest coaches at the front of my trains but a couple of them have a few Poole coaches at the back. This is on the presumption that most people will be concentrating on the loco end.
It's all about doing what is right in your eyes, and doing the best job you can to entertain.
Quote from: Steven B on November 18, 2016, 12:37:43 PM
As far as an exhibition layout is concerned:
1. If a train is to terminate at a station and the loco run around before heading back where is came from, is it better not to fit tail lamps, or to have one fitted at each end of the train. Both are wrong as far as the BR Rule Book is concerned but which is the lesser of two evils? I'm leaning towards fitting lamps to both ends.
I suspect that having a lamp at both ends looks slightly more realistic. If you're standing behind the train you can't see the front and the incorrect lamp should be mostly hidden behind the loco anyway. But no lamps is something understandable and forgivable, I think, given how hard it would be to follow prototypical practice.
Quote
2. Is it OK to have Blue-Ribbon quality models in the same train as Poole era models at an exhibition? I'd like to model a WCML that is made up of a Mk3 DVT, Mk3 buffet and Mk2 FO & TSO coaches. I have the passenger carriages as Poole era models (albeit upgraded with blackened wheels and interiors) but would have to run them with the much more modern Dapol DVT. Is this an acceptable compromise or would there be less grumbles from the public if I forked out for a rake of the new Farish Mk2Fs as and when they're available?
Are there any other modelling compromises that would be frowned upon by exhibition visitors?
Happy modelling.
Steven B.
I don't really exhibit my layout but I try not to mix simpler, older models with newer stuff as I've found that the resultant train doesn't always look right. For some reason I've found that the early BR liveries work less well together when I tried to mix newer and older Graham Farish stock. I tried it with Chocolate and Cream Mk1s but eventually sold the old style ones to buy newer ones.
That said; I have an Intercity Mk1 rake made mostly of the new-style coaches but there's no new Intercity Mk1 buffet so I've had to use a Chinese-made old-style coach and it doesn't look too bad. I think your Graham Farish coaches with extra detailing would look perfectly fine alongside the Dapol DVT.
Quote from: johnlambert on November 18, 2016, 02:15:42 PM
Quote from: Steven B on November 18, 2016, 12:37:43 PM
As far as an exhibition layout is concerned:
1. If a train is to terminate at a station and the loco run around before heading back where is came from, is it better not to fit tail lamps, or to have one fitted at each end of the train. Both are wrong as far as the BR Rule Book is concerned but which is the lesser of two evils? I'm leaning towards fitting lamps to both ends.
I suspect that having a lamp at both ends looks slightly more realistic. If you're standing behind the train you can't see the front and the incorrect lamp should be mostly hidden behind the loco anyway. But no lamps is something understandable and forgivable, I think, given how hard it would be to follow prototypical practice.
Quote
2. Is it OK to have Blue-Ribbon quality models in the same train as Poole era models at an exhibition? I'd like to model a WCML that is made up of a Mk3 DVT, Mk3 buffet and Mk2 FO & TSO coaches. I have the passenger carriages as Poole era models (albeit upgraded with blackened wheels and interiors) but would have to run them with the much more modern Dapol DVT. Is this an acceptable compromise or would there be less grumbles from the public if I forked out for a rake of the new Farish Mk2Fs as and when they're available?
Are there any other modelling compromises that would be frowned upon by exhibition visitors?
Happy modelling.
Steven B.
I don't really exhibit my layout but I try not to mix simpler, older models with newer stuff as I've found that the resultant train doesn't always look right. For some reason I've found that the early BR liveries work less well together when I tried to mix newer and older Graham Farish stock. I tried it with Chocolate and Cream Mk1s but eventually sold the old style ones to buy newer ones.
That said; I have an Intercity Mk1 rake made mostly of the new-style coaches but there's no new Intercity Mk1 buffet so I've had to use a Chinese-made old-style coach and it doesn't look too bad. I think your Graham Farish coaches with extra detailing would look perfectly fine alongside the Dapol DVT.
I would agree with pretty much all of this.
Re the tail lamps, you don't say if you will be having them lit or not. If they are lit, it may look odd to an observer, there being a red glow between the locomotive and the train. If they are not lit, then I don't see a problem.
Re the mix of old and new stock, I think it would probably only be acceptable to the observer if the the old and new weren't mixed in the same train. Regardless of modelling level, consistency is the key, I think, so if they were in the same train, something would always jar.
Quote from: Steven B on November 18, 2016, 12:37:43 PM
As far as an exhibition layout is concerned:
1. If a train is to terminate at a station and the loco run around before heading back where is came from, is it better not to fit tail lamps, or to have one fitted at each end of the train. Both are wrong as far as the BR Rule Book is concerned but which is the lesser of two evils? I'm leaning towards fitting lamps to both ends.
2. Is it OK to have Blue-Ribbon quality models in the same train as Poole era models at an exhibition? I'd like to model a WCML that is made up of a Mk3 DVT, Mk3 buffet and Mk2 FO & TSO coaches. I have the passenger carriages as Poole era models (albeit upgraded with blackened wheels and interiors) but would have to run them with the much more modern Dapol DVT. Is this an acceptable compromise or would there be less grumbles from the public if I forked out for a rake of the new Farish Mk2Fs as and when they're available?
Are there any other modelling compromises that would be frowned upon by exhibition visitors?
Happy modelling.
Steven B.
I think the first question is down to practicalities. on the propotype, only one tail lamp should be displayed on a train but in N scale, changing lamp codes is really not practical. maybe in O Scale or above but OO and smaller the idea of being able to change the lamps is really not practical.
The Second question is 'Your railway your rules.' If it looks right to you then thats ok!
I cant comment on my layout I run a train of elephants
Quote from: paulprice on November 21, 2016, 09:26:31 PM
I cant comment on my layout I run a train of elephants
Ah, you don't see many trunk routes modelled....... ;)
There is a recurring theme about individuals needing to take more time to research history, prototype, correct operation for a particular geographical area, and accurate representation. I think that all of these things have their place, for some people, but by no means everyone.
If this hobby is like every other hobby on the planet, we should have everything from extreme accuracy to complete fantasy. That's human nature.
To put it another way if all I saw at exhibitions were totally accurate depictions of railways,run to strict timetables, where trains appeared once per day (low use branch line), I'd simply stop showing up at exhibitions. In short everything would be too homogeneous for my taste.
What I like seeing are the surprises, the fun stuff, the prototyical stuff, the odd one out, the artists impression and the 25 foot layout with trains longer than my house. I also like watching trains run round and round in circles. Heck isn't that the Gauge 1 mob at Warley? I think that's great fun to look at, as their trains huff and chuff their way around the track.
Quote from: Chris Morris on October 09, 2016, 09:55:34 AM
There will always be a level of "modellers licence" but I don't like to see say a blue & grey dmu on scene at the same time as a steam hauled train or a blue diesel pulling crimson & cream coaches.
I realise I'm a bit 'late' responding to this but have only just discovered the post. Apologies if others have made the same points already.
BR blue came in in 1966, indeed some experimental stock (XP64) was even earlier, while the 'steam age' didn't end until 1968, so it must have happened that Blue/Grey DMUs etc ran alongside steam worked trains, for a few years at least. Could a BR Blue diesel have hauled "blood and custard" coaches? Unlikely, but then again nothing is certain in the huge history of our railways.
For myself I like to try to keep things fairly 'accurate' although running a Class 14 (and 41 if we ever get such a thing) on a 1970 set layout could be construed as "wrong" from a strictly 'accurate' perspective. They are there simply to 'fill in the gaps', as it were, on a 90% Diesel Hydraulic powered layout.
I do like timetables and 'prototype' running where possible (probably a legacy of my near 30 years as a professional railwayman on BR, and FGW as it calls itself today).
Also train weights should be kept 'realistic' if possible - OK , a Class 22 from Dapol can haul 30 loaded wagons up a 1/50 incline, but the real thing couldn't, for example.
It would need either a banking engine or a Class 42/52 on the front.
That kind of thing is what I mean by 'realistic'.
As ever these are just my opinions. We all have our own, and long may that continue.
Quote from: Byegad on October 09, 2016, 10:38:04 AM
Two Deltics double heading a five coach train was the most way out one I saw.
Maybe one had failed - diesel electrics you know - very unreliable! ;)
Quote from: D1042 Western Princess on November 30, 2016, 10:27:03 AM
Quote from: Chris Morris on October 09, 2016, 09:55:34 AM
There will always be a level of "modellers licence" but I don't like to see say a blue & grey dmu on scene at the same time as a steam hauled train or a blue diesel pulling crimson & cream coaches.
I realise I'm a bit 'late' responding to this but have only just discovered the post. Apologies if others have made the same points already.
BR blue came in in 1966, indeed some experimental stock (XP64) was even earlier, while the 'steam age' didn't end until 1968, so it must have happened that Blue/Grey DMUs etc ran alongside steam worked trains, for a few years at least.
As far as I know (and I may well be wrong so happy to be corrected) DMUs and EMUs were initially painted all-over blue and didn't change to blue/grey until well into the 1970s (and in some cases much later).
Quote from Wikipedia:
"Originally, multiple units were also painted in all over Rail Blue, however the blue and grey coaching stock livery was eventually also applied to all gangwayed DMUs, EMUs and DEMUs from about 1980 onwards until the introduction of the new Sector liveries in the mid-1980s. "
So it seems blue-grey coaching stock would be OK but not multiple units. I know it isn't the most reliable source though ;)
Paul
Quote from: D1042 Western Princess on November 30, 2016, 10:27:03 AM
BR blue came in in 1966, indeed some experimental stock (XP64) was even earlier, while the 'steam age' didn't end until 1968, so it must have happened that Blue/Grey DMUs etc ran alongside steam worked trains, for a few years at least. Could a BR Blue diesel have hauled "blood and custard" coaches? Unlikely, but then again nothing is certain in the huge history of our railways.
BR blue was actually introduced in 1965. This photo of the Granite City railtour in 1966 shows 60836 heading a mixed rake of Maroon and Blue/grey coaches. I am pretty sure some DMUs would have received plain blue in the mid 60s and operated alongside steam.
(http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/monthly_01_2012/post-7852-0-61037400-1325934701.jpg)
I think that Crimson and Cream had gone by the early 60s so it is unlikely that blue diesels ever hauled them outside of preservation.
Quote from: railsquid on November 30, 2016, 12:39:51 PM
Quote from: D1042 Western Princess on November 30, 2016, 10:27:03 AM
Quote from: Chris Morris on October 09, 2016, 09:55:34 AM
There will always be a level of "modellers licence" but I don't like to see say a blue & grey dmu on scene at the same time as a steam hauled train or a blue diesel pulling crimson & cream coaches.
I realise I'm a bit 'late' responding to this but have only just discovered the post. Apologies if others have made the same points already.
BR blue came in in 1966, indeed some experimental stock (XP64) was even earlier, while the 'steam age' didn't end until 1968, so it must have happened that Blue/Grey DMUs etc ran alongside steam worked trains, for a few years at least.
As far as I know (and I may well be wrong so happy to be corrected) DMUs and EMUs were initially painted all-over blue and didn't change to blue/grey until well into the 1970s (and in some cases much later).
I think you're right, railsquid. You could, and did, see steam locos alongside blue and grey coaching stock. But multiple units would generally have been all over blue (or green) at the time.
My preference is to run trains that are at least plausible for the scene I'm trying to create. That might mean mixing stock from two adjacent eras but, unless I've seen evidence of it, probably not running stock from three eras at the same time. For example I have GWR Rail Cars in GWR, Crimson/Cream and BR Green; I wouldn't run the GWR one in the same roster as the green one but the crimson/cream one might appear along side either of the others.
I hope that makes sense and I'm not saying that anyone else should follow my 'rules'.
Quote from: Karhedron on November 30, 2016, 01:30:12 PM
Quote from: D1042 Western Princess on November 30, 2016, 10:27:03 AM
BR blue came in in 1966, indeed some experimental stock (XP64) was even earlier, while the 'steam age' didn't end until 1968, so it must have happened that Blue/Grey DMUs etc ran alongside steam worked trains, for a few years at least. Could a BR Blue diesel have hauled "blood and custard" coaches? Unlikely, but then again nothing is certain in the huge history of our railways.
BR blue was actually introduced in 1965. This photo of the Granite City railtour in 1966 shows 60836 heading a mixed rake of Maroon and Blue/grey coaches. I am pretty sure some DMUs would have received plain blue in the mid 60s and operated alongside steam.
(http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/monthly_01_2012/post-7852-0-61037400-1325934701.jpg)
I think that Crimson and Cream had gone by the early 60s so it is unlikely that blue diesels ever hauled them outside of preservation.
I stand corrected; thank you. However, the Glasgow suburban electrics were an all over blue as early as 1962 (I think) so certainly would have run alongside steam on a daily basis.
Quote from: railsquid on November 30, 2016, 12:39:51 PM
As far as I know (and I may well be wrong so happy to be corrected) DMUs and EMUs were initially painted all-over blue and didn't change to blue/grey until well into the 1970s (and in some cases much later).
Rail Blue was intended to be applied in a similar way as Crimson (Not Maroon) was ie Crimson Suburban/non corridor, Crimson and cream corridor stock.
Just blue was applied to most multiple units, The few remaining Suburban MK1s and non passenger stock.
Blue and White to all other passenger stock.
Some DMU's Received Blue and White from the beginning such as the Edinburgh to Glasgow Intercity Units (http://www.railcar.co.uk/images/3192 (http://www.railcar.co.uk/images/3192)) Whilst the Ayrshire coast Class 126 went rail blue. (http://www.railcar.co.uk/images/2185 (http://www.railcar.co.uk/images/2185))
Quote from: D1042 Western Princess on November 30, 2016, 01:50:28 PM
I stand corrected; thank you. However, the Glasgow suburban electrics were an all over blue as early as 1962 (I think) so certainly would have run alongside steam on a daily basis.
The early electrics were painted in Light Electric or Caledonian Blue but were later repainted into Rail Blue
Were not the original ac locos for the WCML and the Glasgow suburban outshopped in what was called at the time 'Electric blue', not BR standard blue? Memory-and photos-seem to suggest it was a lighter shade than BR blue.
I can't find my written references for this, for the moment.
Steam and BR blue coaches were relatively common in the areas where steam still remained at the time-see the many photos taken in the last two or three years of steam on the LMR, for instance.
My own feeling for running on your own layout is Rule 1-whatever takes your fancy; but I do think that exhibition layouts should be run where at least the loco and the train it is hauling is the same period/era.
Martyn
Quote from: martyn on November 30, 2016, 04:18:46 PM
Were not the original ac locos for the WCML and the Glasgow suburban outshopped in what was called at the time 'Electric blue', not BR standard blue? Memory-and photos-seem to suggest it was a lighter shade than BR blue.
I can't find my written references for this, for the moment.
Steam and BR blue coaches were relatively common in the areas where steam still remained at the time-see the many photos taken in the last two or three years of steam on the LMR, for instance.
My own feeling for running on your own layout is Rule 1-whatever takes your fancy; but I do think that exhibition layouts should be run where at least the loco and the train it is hauling is the same period/era.
Martyn
The Glasgow class 303 suburban electric sets referred by the locals as The Blue Trains were painted Caledonian Blue. I used to live next to the Hyndland depot.
Quote from: Chris Morris on October 09, 2016, 09:55:34 AM
There will always be a level of "modellers licence" but I don't like to see say a blue & grey dmu on scene at the same time as a steam hauled train
Why not? It must have happened many times now I think about it - but only at Aberwystwth where the Vale of Rheidol line remained as BR Steam operated until (I believe) privatisation in the mid 1990s, other Welsh narrow gauge lines and preserved routes which had 'cross platform' connections (since you don't say it had to be BR steam!)
To put it another way if all I saw at exhibitions were totally accurate depictions of railways,run to strict timetables, where trains appeared once per day (low use branch line), I'd simply stop showing up at exhibitions. In short everything would be too homogeneous for my taste.
Alas , all too common at exhibitions! I call them Bob Crowe specials!
'Alas , all too common at exhibitions! I call them Bob Crowe specials!'
I do remember seeing, many years ago, at IMREX exhibition in Central Halls, a very widely publicised layout which was having severe electrical problems, and no trains able to run; the exhibitors had made a sign and placed it on the front of the layout which said 'ASLEF day. No trains at present'.
Martyn
Quote from: Railwaygun on December 01, 2016, 08:15:03 AM
To put it another way if all I saw at exhibitions were totally accurate depictions of railways,run to strict timetables, where trains appeared once per day (low use branch line), I'd simply stop showing up at exhibitions. In short everything would be too homogeneous for my taste.
Alas , all too common at exhibitions! I call them Bob Crowe specials!
Your right if I ran my layout at exhibitions more prototypically it would just be a procession of 4F and Black 5's I would love it but the viewers would get bored far quicker than they normally do :)
Repetition is not a problem when the average viewing cycle of a layout at an exhibition is under 5 minutes. I find you want a movement every minute minimum, even if it a loco run around, shunt or through movement.
The movements can be prototypical just compressed in time.
The question as to whether BR Blue Grey ever met BR Crimson Cream is one which I have thought about for many years, I would say that it didn't but they must have been close. The decision to abandon the 'Blood and Custard' was taken in 1956. Naturally, it takes a while to repaint everything but it is said that the souther Region were VERY quick in painting their stock Green. Only selected coaches (And only Mk1's) were painted Chocolate and Cream on the Western Region. All other regions adopted Maroon. Percieved wisdom is that all crimson Cream coaches weree either repainted or withdrawn by 1962. (I last remember seeing one in about 1960.) The first MkII stock was delivered in maroon but the following year (1964) the XP64 stock was painted in a turquoise blue and white. along with a Brush 4 (Was it D1733?) This blue was slightly lighter than the Monastral Blue eventually chosen. The first new coaches in the new Blue/Grey livery emerged in 1966 so there must have been a four year gap between Blood/Custard and Blue/Grey. There were still maroon coaches knocking about in at least 1970 but becoming fewer all the time.
Regarding the DMU's. Initially, Cross Country and Suburban DMU's were painted all over blue. Intercity units were supposed to be Blue Grey but the only blue grey IC units I remember were the six coach trans-pennine stock. Every other IC unit I ever clapped eyes on were all over blue. I belive some long distance electric stock was painted blue/grey but most EMU's were all over blue. The Scottish 'Blue Trains' (Cl303) were originally a light blue said to be 'Caledonian' blue but some CRA members believe that it was closer to LNER Kingfisher Blue. In the mid sixties, they were repainted in the unlined Monastral Blue. The AC electric locos were originally in a lovely light blue livery called 'Electric Blue' with white cab window surrounds and cab roof. from the mid sixties, they too were painted in the darker blue with full yellow ends. These are my memories of the liveries of BR during the period 1960-80. Maybe others could share their observations? Did anybody see a Crimson/Cream coach in revenue service after 1962? When was the earliest sighting of a blue/grey coach? 1966 is the usual date for the approval of the new liveries but my recollection is that by summer of 1966, there was an awful lot of blue about!
Quote from: violets49 on December 01, 2016, 02:19:06 PM
Did anybody see a Crimson/Cream coach in revenue service after 1962? When was the earliest sighting of a blue/grey coach? 1966 is the usual date for the approval of the new liveries but my recollection is that by summer of 1966, there was an awful lot of blue about!
Last sighting of a crimson and cream coach I have been able to find is when the RCTS reported that Mk1 CK W15622 was still in Crimson & Cream in February 1964 on the Western Region.
First picture I have found of a blue/grey coach is a single vehicle on the Thames/Clyde express in October 1965. I suspect that this was not the first vehicle delivered and others were earlier in 1965. This means that crimson/cream and blue grey probably missed each other by only about 1 year (excluding the XP64 stock which was in a slightly different livery anyway).
The only Mk.2 BR coaches not delivered new in blue/grey were the Mk.2 (not 2A) First Corridors (FK) which were mostly maroon, but also a batch in green for the Southern Region. These were built in 1964-65. Other types (TSO, SO, BSO and BFK) were built from 1965 to 1967. I am sure there are dates somewhere for when in 1965 the first Mk2 TSO/SO/BSO/BFK was delivered.
Quote from: violets49 on December 01, 2016, 02:19:06 PM
along with a Brush 4 (Was it D1733?) This blue was slightly lighter than the Monastral Blue eventually chosen.
I believe D1733 was the first diesel in blue. At least, it was the first one I saw in blue. :sick2: :P
Quote from: newportnobby on December 01, 2016, 02:44:40 PM
Quote from: violets49 on December 01, 2016, 02:19:06 PM
along with a Brush 4 (Was it D1733?) This blue was slightly lighter than the Monastral Blue eventually chosen.
I believe D1733 was the first diesel in blue. At least, it was the first one I saw in blue. :sick2: :P
Are you sure they had colour back in those days Mick ?
Well to go back to the original question. At home there is no question in my mind. Your railway so do what you like. Personally I do usually run sensible and near prototypical formations on Portpatrick at least 90% of the time. That is my personal inclination. At shows, however, since it is shown as inspired by the railways to Stranraer, I run things which seem to have gone there. Though the period is flexible - compound on some locals and a 126 DMU on others. And to better differentiate the Newcastle boat train it consists of LNER coaches - probably right - and an LNER loco (no suitable loco to change at Carlisle is my story.
When Allanbrae, now under construction, hits the circuit that will run a Scottish 1998-2014 ish flavour. Well I have units in all 3 main privatised liveries. Plus a Dapol crimson and cream Strathclyde 156.
Running the club 4 track continuous is more fun. We have such varied interests that the location is kept vague. But if I am setting trains up I will aim to form them as near prototypically as I can, because I feel that is more educational. Though that does not preclude one big 4 loco on another's coaches - it becomes an inter regional. Depending on what members bring on the day, we often try to start a day in steam era. Then progress through green diesel, then ease towards sector and privatised. With perhaps a fun time at the end. Thomas will appear if/when we find the time is right.
But I guess if the exhibition guide specifies as layout where anything goes, then why not.
Quote from: Jerry Howlett on December 01, 2016, 03:04:49 PM
Quote from: newportnobby on December 01, 2016, 02:44:40 PM
Quote from: violets49 on December 01, 2016, 02:19:06 PM
along with a Brush 4 (Was it D1733?) This blue was slightly lighter than the Monastral Blue eventually chosen.
I believe D1733 was the first diesel in blue. At least, it was the first one I saw in blue. :sick2: :P
Are you sure they had colour back in those days Mick ?
How very dare you!
(I'll ask Bob Tidbury :-X)
Quote from: paulprice on December 01, 2016, 09:26:26 AM
Your right if I ran my layout at exhibitions more prototypically it would just be a procession of 4F and Black 5's I would love it but the viewers would get bored far quicker than they normally do :)
Likewise - mine would be an endless stream of Westerns, Warships, Hymeks, Class 22s and a 14!
An occasional Duff 4 perhaps, but that would be it - sheer heaven to many, a bit dull to others.
Quote from: Karhedron on December 01, 2016, 02:42:34 PM
Quote from: violets49 on December 01, 2016, 02:19:06 PM
Did anybody see a Crimson/Cream coach in revenue service after 1962? When was the earliest sighting of a blue/grey coach? 1966 is the usual date for the approval of the new liveries but my recollection is that by summer of 1966, there was an awful lot of blue about!
Last sighting of a crimson and cream coach I have been able to find is when the RCTS reported that Mk1 CK W15622 was still in Crimson & Cream in February 1964 on the Western Region.
First picture I have found of a blue/grey coach is a single vehicle on the Thames/Clyde express in October 1965. I suspect that this was not the first vehicle delivered and others were earlier in 1965. This means that crimson/cream and blue grey probably missed each other by only about 1 year (excluding the XP64 stock which was in a slightly different livery anyway).
The only Mk.2 BR coaches not delivered new in blue/grey were the Mk.2 (not 2A) First Corridors (FK) which were mostly maroon, but also a batch in green for the Southern Region. These were built in 1964-65. Other types (TSO, SO, BSO and BFK) were built from 1965 to 1967. I am sure there are dates somewhere for when in 1965 the first Mk2 TSO/SO/BSO/BFK was delivered.
As I said. there was an awful lot of Blue about (In Scotland) in 1966. The first Mk2 coach, W13252 emerged from Swindon Works in 1963. (In maroon) The first blue/grey coaches emerged form Derby in 1965. Keith Parkin in his book 'BR Mk1 coaches said "The blue and grey livery suggested by the design panel, tried on the XP64 train and made viable by the new 'airless' spray technique, began to be seen during 1965 but the changeover had to be gradual as it was not a matter of changing the paint pots but of installing new apparatus and training the men to operate it. derby began early but not until 1966 did a complete set of North eastern stock appear in blue and grey and it was even later before any Scottish Region Stock was seen. The new livery involved, this time, more than just a colour change."
Pre nationalisation stock may have retained the crimson/cream longer especially if they were intended for early withdrawal. Few Big-Four passenger stock got the blue grey livery. Some of the LMS design (But BR Built) porthole stock and some Gresley catering vehicles.
Just for fun (but historically accurate all the same) the first BR Mk11 coaches emerged from works in full maroon livery.
I know virtually nothing about liveries apart from some dates I read on wiki about changes. Following this thread is confusing me now. I will be starting a new layout after crimbo set around 1960/63 western region I had thought that I would get all mk1s in maroon. Now the question is would crimson/cream and chocolate/cream liveries still be around at that time on the western region and would It be only mk1s or would there be other types of coaching stock from earlier days. Sorry for what may seem draft questions but I only took interest in Railways this year so are very much in my infancy on the learning scale.
Quote from: Big bad John on December 05, 2016, 01:20:47 AM
I know virtually nothing about liveries apart from some dates I read on wiki about changes. Following this thread is confusing me now. I will be starting a new layout after crimbo set around 1960/63 western region I had thought that I would get all mk1s in maroon. Now the question is would crimson/cream and chocolate/cream liveries still be around at that time on the western region and would It be only mk1s or would there be other types of coaching stock from earlier days. Sorry for what may seem draft questions but I only took interest in Railways this year so are very much in my infancy on the learning scale.
Probably best to start a new thread with a specific question, particularly with details of the region you want to model... I'm not an expert, but I imagine in that period you'd certainly see some pre-nationalisation stock about, e.g. Hawksworth and Stanier coaches, ex-GWR B sets, autotrailers and the like, possibly even the odd Gresley buffet. Try checking Youtube for films from your chosen era/region, and Google Images.
Quote from: D1042 Western Princess on December 03, 2016, 10:20:42 AM
Quote from: paulprice on December 01, 2016, 09:26:26 AM
Your right if I ran my layout at exhibitions more prototypically it would just be a procession of 4F and Black 5's I would love it but the viewers would get bored far quicker than they normally do :)
Likewise - mine would be an endless stream of Westerns, Warships, Hymeks, Class 22s and a 14!
An occasional Duff 4 perhaps, but that would be it - sheer heaven to many, a bit dull to others.
My layout is an endless stream of Westerns, Warships, Hymeks and class 22s with a brush type 4. I have a few Western Region kettles as well. I don't see how that can be dull to anyone!
Quote from: Big bad John on December 05, 2016, 01:20:47 AM
I know virtually nothing about liveries apart from some dates I read on wiki about changes. Following this thread is confusing me now. I will be starting a new layout after crimbo set around 1960/63 western region I had thought that I would get all mk1s in maroon. Now the question is would crimson/cream and chocolate/cream liveries still be around at that time on the western region and would It be only mk1s or would there be other types of coaching stock from earlier days. Sorry for what may seem draft questions but I only took interest in Railways this year so are very much in my infancy on the learning scale.
In the early 60s there were plenty of pre nationalisation coaches around and being hauled by diesels. There would not be rakes of crimson and cream by then but just the odd one or two in amongst a rake of maroon. In 1960 the named expresses on the WR used chocolate and cream rakes. These were broken up in the early sixties because the people in charge of BR thought the WR was trying to go back to being GWR.
QuoteI don't see how that can be dull to anyone!
Unless your interests lie in post-privitisation! Still, you'll never please everyone!
Thanks Railsquid and Chris Morris.
I think I'll stick with mainly maroon and just get the odd other liveries if I find a bargain. I'll invoke rule one anyway but didn't want to go ridiculous with It.
:thankyousign:
Quote from: njee20 on December 05, 2016, 06:49:46 AM
QuoteI don't see how that can be dull to anyone!
Unless your interests lie in post-privitisation! Still, you'll never please everyone!
Although both of these comments were made with a smile it comes back to the reason for starting the thread. While I will run whatever I like at home I think it is important at an exhibition to run trains that fit reasonably well together and each train should consist of stock that would have run together in a train. I like trains such as the voyager or Chiltern class 168 but I think it would be wrong to run either of these on my 1960s based layout as it would ruin the illusion and atmosphere.
I always feel disappointed when I see trains that are just plain wrong (i.e. a diesel pulling private owner coal wagons) or were not around at the same time on a layout at exhibitions. Unless of course the point of the layout is to show trains at a location over the years.
IMHO Too many exhibitors don't seem to be interested in running correct stock.
Having said all that the next exhibition layout I will be involved with is a G scale one which will run stock which does not fit together at all. My reasoning is that this layout is designed to promote and capture the feel of garden railways where stock of different scales and from different continents are often run at the same time. I don't know why but this doesn't seem to matter out in the garden but would bother me indoors.
Quote from: Big bad John on December 05, 2016, 01:20:47 AM
I know virtually nothing about liveries apart from some dates I read on wiki about changes. Following this thread is confusing me now. I will be starting a new layout after crimbo set around 1960/63 western region I had thought that I would get all mk1s in maroon. Now the question is would crimson/cream and chocolate/cream liveries still be around at that time on the western region and would It be only mk1s or would there be other types of coaching stock from earlier days. Sorry for what may seem draft questions but I only took interest in Railways this year so are very much in my infancy on the learning scale.
Between 1960 and 63 you would have had the (then) new diesels in BR Maroon and BR Green, not to mention 'Golden Ochre', Desert Sand and various other experimental liveries running alongside the aging steam in BR Black and BR Green liveries, a lot of pre nationalisation stock around, 'blood and custard', maroon and chocolate and cream coaches, green DMUs, steam and diesel 'double stamps', lots of SWB goods wagons - there are even unusual workings like branch trains with GWR B Sets and the latest diesel type hauling (the Highworth branch had 03 haulage with ex GWR B sets, for example), sounds like a nice, colourful idea for a layout.
Good luck with it.
Quote from: Chris Morris on December 05, 2016, 05:57:14 AM
Quote from: D1042 Western Princess on December 03, 2016, 10:20:42 AM
Likewise - mine would be an endless stream of Westerns, Warships, Hymeks, Class 22s and a 14!
An occasional Duff 4 perhaps, but that would be it - sheer heaven to many, a bit dull to others.
My layout is an endless stream of Westerns, Warships, Hymeks and class 22s with a brush type 4. I have a few Western Region kettles as well. I don't see how that can be dull to anyone!
Just to let the doubters know - although our ideas are identical we are NOT the same person! :)
Quote from: Sprintex on November 30, 2016, 01:20:32 PM
Quote from Wikipedia:
"Originally, multiple units were also painted in all over Rail Blue, however the blue and grey coaching stock livery was eventually also applied to all gangwayed DMUs, EMUs and DEMUs from about 1980 onwards until the introduction of the new Sector liveries in the mid-1980s. "
So it seems blue-grey coaching stock would be OK but not multiple units. I know it isn't the most reliable source though ;)
Paul
Is Wiki right though? In his book "The Western since 1948" G Freeman Allen shows a Gloucester RCW DMU running in Cornwall as early as 1975 wearing very much work stained blue/grey livery, so some DMUs must have had it applied well before 1980. As you say Paul, "not the most reliable source".
Because captions can, sometimes, give incorrect dates, additionally I checked the Bradford Barton "DMUs countrywide" book (published 1976, and therefore no picture in it could be later) to see pictures of DMUs in blue/grey as early as 1970 working in the Bristol area. I'd say a b/g DMU would not be wrong, on a WR layout anyway, from the late 1960s onwards.
Quote from: D1042 Western Princess on December 05, 2016, 08:18:06 AM
Quote from: Chris Morris on December 05, 2016, 05:57:14 AM
Quote from: D1042 Western Princess on December 03, 2016, 10:20:42 AM
Likewise - mine would be an endless stream of Westerns, Warships, Hymeks, Class 22s and a 14!
An occasional Duff 4 perhaps, but that would be it - sheer heaven to many, a bit dull to others.
My layout is an endless stream of Westerns, Warships, Hymeks and class 22s with a brush type 4. I have a few Western Region kettles as well. I don't see how that can be dull to anyone!
Just to let the doubters know - although our ideas are identical we are NOT the same person! :)
Our ideas aren't entirely identical. My layout is based in Devon so no class 14 on my layout.
You may want to come to the Severn Valley Railway on 8th & 9th April where I will be mainly running hydraulics - see http://www.svr.co.uk/SEItem.aspx?a=67 (http://www.svr.co.uk/SEItem.aspx?a=67) . I might even be located in the new diesel maintenance building at Kidderminster.
Quote from: Chris Morris on December 05, 2016, 08:49:35 AM
Quote from: D1042 Western Princess on December 05, 2016, 08:18:06 AM
Quote from: Chris Morris on December 05, 2016, 05:57:14 AM
Quote from: D1042 Western Princess on December 03, 2016, 10:20:42 AM
Likewise - mine would be an endless stream of Westerns, Warships, Hymeks, Class 22s and a 14!
An occasional Duff 4 perhaps, but that would be it - sheer heaven to many, a bit dull to others.
My layout is an endless stream of Westerns, Warships, Hymeks and class 22s with a brush type 4. I have a few Western Region kettles as well. I don't see how that can be dull to anyone!
Just to let the doubters know - although our ideas are identical we are NOT the same person! :)
Our ideas aren't entirely identical. My layout is based in Devon so no class 14 on my layout.
You may want to come to the Severn Valley Railway on 8th & 9th April where I will be mainly running hydraulics - see http://www.svr.co.uk/SEItem.aspx?a=67 (http://www.svr.co.uk/SEItem.aspx?a=67) . I might even be located in the new diesel maintenance building at Kidderminster.
My own strictly 1970 based WR layout shouldn't have a 14 either, but I've included one just to tell the story of the Hydraulics, in the same way a Class 41 (or D600) will be run - should an rtr version ever become available.
Quote from: Big bad John on December 05, 2016, 01:20:47 AM
I know virtually nothing about liveries apart from some dates I read on wiki about changes. Following this thread is confusing me now. I will be starting a new layout after crimbo set around 1960/63 western region I had thought that I would get all mk1s in maroon. Now the question is would crimson/cream and chocolate/cream liveries still be around at that time on the western region and would It be only mk1s or would there be other types of coaching stock from earlier days. Sorry for what may seem draft questions but I only took interest in Railways this year so are very much in my infancy on the learning scale.
By the 1960s, principal expresses were almost exclusively Mk1s but plenty of Hwksworth and even Collett coaches could still be seen on less prestigous services. Farish have not yet released their Hawksworths in Maroon (annoyingly) but Dapol Colletts in Maroon could be seen. Also many branchlines still used Autocoaches or B-sets in Maroon (these not being phased out until around 1964 by DMUs).
Stock would mostly have been Maroon but with some variety. Crimson and cream was still fairly common in 1960 but rare by 1963. You would also have had some chocoloate and cream Mk1s. These were kept in complete sets until 1961-2. At this point the sets were broken up and the coaches mixed into the general pool. It was not uncommon to see very very mixed rakes with Maroon, crimson and cream and chocolate and cream all the in the same train for a few years.
Dependent on where on the Western Region you locate your layout you could potentially have SR green coaches mixed in as well :)
I don't know when it first got there but I can recall seeing a Thompson buffet car in blue & grey livery in Cornwall back in the seventies. I guess there will always be oddities that you wouldn't expect to see.
Quote from: Chris Morris on December 05, 2016, 10:45:49 AM
I don't know when it first got there but I can recall seeing a Thompson buffet car in blue & grey livery in Cornwall back in the seventies. I guess there will always be oddities that you wouldn't expect to see.
Not sure about Thompsons but I know there were a couple of blue/grey Gresley Buffets that regularly worked west-country services in the 1970s. Here is one at Reading.
(https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5002/5361736496_5e300d345e_b.jpg)
I remember the Gresley Buffets in the 70's.
They were the smoothest ride in a rake of Mk1s by far. I hope they passed into preservation.
Jerry
Quote from: Chris Morris on December 05, 2016, 10:45:49 AM
I don't know when it first got there but I can recall seeing a Thompson buffet car in blue & grey livery in Cornwall back in the seventies. I guess there will always be oddities that you wouldn't expect to see.
Indeed Chris. And these oddities are most helpful to us modellers. Way back in my teens when I first started buying Railway Modeller each month, there were a run of photos, and comments under the "Prototype for Everything" banner. The example you quote could have been on one of the Cross Country "expresses".
Quote from: Portpatrick on December 05, 2016, 10:56:50 AM
Quote from: Chris Morris on December 05, 2016, 10:45:49 AM
I don't know when it first got there but I can recall seeing a Thompson buffet car in blue & grey livery in Cornwall back in the seventies. I guess there will always be oddities that you wouldn't expect to see.
Indeed Chris. And these oddities are most helpful to us modellers. Way back in my teens when I first started buying Railway Modeller each month, there were a run of photos, and comments under the "Prototype for Everything" banner. The example you quote could have been on one of the Cross Country "expresses".
Just spotted the Gresley Buffet is a Western region allocation as it has a W Preffix. Probably allocated to Old Oak Common carriage sheds as we definetly had one on a couple of excursions out of Didcot.
Quote from: newportnobby on December 05, 2016, 10:02:13 AM
Dependent on where on the Western Region you locate your layout you could potentially have SR green coaches mixed in as well :)
Indeed! There used to be a Wolverhampton to Margate service (and vice versa) on Saturdays which saw SR and WR stock swapping places between regions, the stock would work local trains in the week and make the return journey the following Saturday.
Coaching stock for inter-regional trains could be quite well traveled. The linked photo is interesting (I think); Eastern Region Gresley coaches, in a train from the South Coast but photographed in Birmingham behind an ex-GW engine.
http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrt1048.htm (http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrt1048.htm)
And don't even start on parcels workings where Syphons and other pre nationalisation stock, could be seen well into the 1970s and perhaps into the early 1980s if memory serves correctly.
Quote from: johnlambert on December 05, 2016, 01:19:03 PM
Quote from: newportnobby on December 05, 2016, 10:02:13 AM
Dependent on where on the Western Region you locate your layout you could potentially have SR green coaches mixed in as well :)
Indeed! There used to be a Wolverhampton to Margate service (and vice versa) on Saturdays which saw SR and WR stock swapping places between regions, the stock would work local trains in the week and make the return journey the following Saturday.
Coaching stock for inter-regional trains could be quite well traveled. The linked photo is interesting (I think); Eastern Region Gresley coaches, in a train from the South Coast but photographed in Birmingham behind an ex-GW engine.
http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrt1048.htm (http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrt1048.htm)
Thanks for that, John. Great pic. Looks like I can mingle more than I thought :D
Quote from: Big bad John on December 05, 2016, 01:20:47 AM
I know virtually nothing about liveries apart from some dates I read on wiki about changes. Following this thread is confusing me now. I will be starting a new layout after crimbo set around 1960/63 western region I had thought that I would get all mk1s in maroon. Now the question is would crimson/cream and chocolate/cream liveries still be around at that time on the western region and would It be only mk1s or would there be other types of coaching stock from earlier days. Sorry for what may seem draft questions but I only took interest in Railways this year so are very much in my infancy on the learning scale.
Western region 1960-63 generally speaking. Maroon would be the predominant livery. Certain WR named trains would be Chocolate and Cream Mk1's There would still be a lot of stock from the Big Four. and even the occasional pre group vehicle on secondary services. Southern region would be predominantly green with a mix of the original Malachite green but predominatly the new slightly darker BR stock green. There would also be some crimson/cream vehicles about but not many and probably none on the Southern. Suburban stock would be a mixture of unlined Crimson and lined maroon and Green on the Southern Region but remember all the BR Mk1 suburban coaches operated by the southern were 64' long and not 57' as on the other regions. I hope this is of assistance and is probably all the info you need.
QuoteI know virtually nothing about liveries apart from some dates I read on wiki about changes. Following this thread is confusing me now. I will be starting a new layout after crimbo set around 1960/63 western region I had thought that I would get all mk1s in maroon. Now the question is would crimson/cream and chocolate/cream liveries still be around at that time on the western region and would It be only mk1s or would there be other types of coaching stock from earlier days. Sorry for what may seem draft questions but I only took interest in Railways this year so are very much in my infancy on the learning scale.
I think I'll start a new thread about western in the early sixties as I have been doing some digging around on the web and it's raised more questions than answers and not all related to prototypical train's. It seems the area I had in mind may overlap western and LMS so I'll do some more researching before any more planning. ???
Quote from: Chris Morris on December 05, 2016, 10:45:49 AM
I don't know when it first got there but I can recall seeing a Thompson buffet car in blue & grey livery in Cornwall back in the seventies. I guess there will always be oddities that you wouldn't expect to see.
There was one Thompson Buffet Car, W9135E if I remember correctly, allocated to the Western Region during the early/mid 70's. It was mostly used on lesser weekend West of England Trains.
Dodger
Quote from: Chris Morris on December 05, 2016, 10:45:49 AM
Just spotted the Gresley Buffet is a Western region allocation as it has a W Preffix. Probably allocated to Old Oak Common carriage sheds as we definetly had one on a couple of excursions out of Didcot.
It was on a regular late Friday afternoon working off Paddington to Cheltenham in the 1970s and, presumably, other trips during the week. It was treated just like any other buffet car and certainly was not confined to "specials". A rail enthusiast friend, working in London, would come home (to Swindon) every weekend and always made a point of joining that train just to ride in it.
Quote from: dodger on December 05, 2016, 09:15:02 PM
There was one Thompson Buffet Car, W9135E if I remember correctly, allocated to the Western Region during the early/mid 70's. It was mostly used on lesser weekend West of England Trains.
I think W9135E was a Gresley rather than a Thompson vehicle. See this photo of it at Exeter you can see the distinctive domed roof profile. Thompson stock has straight roofs all the way to the end.
(https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3276/2878910459_1e59542015_b.jpg)
Another late-lasting Gresley Buffet had a regular run on the Harwich Parkeston Quay-Manchester so-called North Country Continental train. Though I travelled often on this train, I didn't take any photos of this vehicle, but I think it was blue/grey. As this was its only diagram, with a regular crew, it had several non-standard decorations and fittings inside!
Some late surviving Thompson sleepers were also blue/grey, with three passing to the WR in 1967/8.
Martyn
Nothing in 'N' gauge sadly, but Hornby released a Blue Grey Gresley buffet in 4mm a couple of years ago for something like £49
I feel that a layout should be reasonably coherent. On Cromford for example I keep everything midland region and in the steam/diesel transition era. I will never be able to exhibit it as it's a fixture, but have toyed with the idea of building an exhibition layout of Monsal vale which could utilise my own stock. Even though it's of an actual place I don't think its necessary to be 100% accurate, after all who would know or even care if the midday train from Manchester to Derby had seven coaches instead of eight or if the pick-up goods was hauled by a 3f instead of a 4f as long as it looked believable.
One type of layout, at an exhibition is the "toy train" type where a totally eclectic mix of locos and rolling stock runs side by side with no attempt at realism, except, perhaps, for those which are demonstrations of eg. Hornby tinplate, and are a working collection rather than a model railway.
A couple of questions though. Did trains, apart from empty stock, run Pullman coaches in the same train as non Pullman passenger carrying stock. Did the rooftop line run other pullman trains apart from the Midland Pullman DMU.
Steve 836;
I'm pretty sure that the 'Hook Continental' (approx 2000 ex Liverpool St to Harwich Parkeston Quay) in the late 70s/early 80s had two ex Pullman firsts in the formation, after their withdrawal from ECML use.
They were however in standard (not reversed) blue/grey.
Martyn
And of course the Bournemouth Belle Pullman ran with a Mk1 BG in choc/cream.
re the gresley D167 buffet
W9135E was a Gresley I typed it into yahoo and you can see the results yourselvees
alos read :
http://www.modelrailforum.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=21990 (http://www.modelrailforum.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=21990)
and https://www.newrailwaymodellers.co.uk/Forums/viewtopic.php?t=41724 (https://www.newrailwaymodellers.co.uk/Forums/viewtopic.php?t=41724) making interesting reading
this youtube clip may help :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrmXtc-0Lrg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrmXtc-0Lrg)
Quote from: longbow on December 20, 2016, 07:38:28 PM
And of course the Bournemouth Belle Pullman ran with a Mk1 BG in choc/cream.
Yes, the WR were most annoyed when the SR nicked it and sent a tatty Maroon one home in its place. :D
(http://www.kentrail.org.uk/Bournemouth_Belle_1965.jpg)
Quote from: Karhedron on December 21, 2016, 08:24:57 AM
Quote from: longbow on December 20, 2016, 07:38:28 PM
And of course the Bournemouth Belle Pullman ran with a Mk1 BG in choc/cream.
Yes, the WR were most annoyed when the SR nicked it and sent a tatty Maroon one home in its place. :D
(http://www.kentrail.org.uk/Bournemouth_Belle_1965.jpg)
Typical SR, not content with nicking decent LMS locomotives
Quote from: paulprice on December 21, 2016, 09:42:59 AM
Quote from: Karhedron on December 21, 2016, 08:24:57 AM
Quote from: longbow on December 20, 2016, 07:38:28 PM
And of course the Bournemouth Belle Pullman ran with a Mk1 BG in choc/cream.
Yes, the WR were most annoyed when the SR nicked it and sent a tatty Maroon one home in its place. :D
(http://www.kentrail.org.uk/Bournemouth_Belle_1965.jpg)
Typical SR, not content with nicking decent LMS locomotives
:confused1: What? Did the LMS have a decent loco then, apart from the ones Stanier designed when he pinched all Swindon's best ideas of course! ;)
Quote from: paulprice on December 21, 2016, 09:42:59 AM
Quote from: Karhedron on December 21, 2016, 08:24:57 AM
Quote from: longbow on December 20, 2016, 07:38:28 PM
And of course the Bournemouth Belle Pullman ran with a Mk1 BG in choc/cream.
Yes, the WR were most annoyed when the SR nicked it and sent a tatty Maroon one home in its place. :D
(http://www.kentrail.org.uk/Bournemouth_Belle_1965.jpg)
They would have been scrapped if the Southern had not needed them!
Dodger
Typical SR, not content with nicking decent LMS locomotives