Hello,
After reading a bit around this forum, I decided to join up so I could get some questions answered and generally see if my research I've done in preparing for a new layout in N scale is correct or at least "good" research (items used, DCC system etc).
Backstory: I'm an American, but I've been absolutely fascinated with British railways for a very long time. I was fortunate to visit the UK twice in the past few years and decided on my last visit that I was going to model it in N scale. A few Graham Farish models were bought whilst I was in the UK in 2013, and a few more ordered in 2014. I've finally gotten around to planning out a small n scale layout out of some old IKEA tables my wife "retired" so I can finally let them run in a proper setting. (LNER B1 BR Black, LNER Peppercorn A1 BR Green, BR Standard 5MT BR Black and Class 08 Green, with a few goods wagons, BR maroon Stanier coaches and Mk 1 coaches also in maroon).
Here are my questions regarding my research:
I've decided to go with Digitrax DCC (and decoders) for my locos. I know I'll have to convert the 08, but the others should be DCC Ready. I plan on purchasing the Zephyr Starter Set. I think that'll get me going. That's a good starting point, right? Do any of you guys have experience with Digitrax systems and Decoders? I've seen pretty positive remarks on them.
I'm also going to be using Peco Electrofrog switches. I've read many different suggestions on wiring them, however, I think I'll be using Seep PM-1 motors and power the frog via them instead of isolating the frog from the rest of the switch. I've seen in more than a few places that some swear you *have* to do that and others that say you *don't have* to do that. I plan on using DC control for the switches over DCC. I might eventually transfer them over, but for now, I like the idea of having a "manual" signalman since it'll fit the era I'm working in.
It seems Peco Code 80 and Code 55 will work together, but the Code 55 will need some height adjustment, are there any other pitfalls to having a mixed system or is it recommended that you use all of one or all of the other? I know aesthetically the answer would be use one or the other, no mix, but still...
I'm not worried about the electrical side of things, I work in electronic automation, so that side of things is quite straight forward.
I've also decided that since I'm using two different old retired dinner tables that I'm going to keep it "modular" I don't have the most space and if I had to pack it up, I'd like to be able to do that. Are there any recommendations on retrofitting the tables or with the track itself to help facilitate that?
I'm doing my best to plan out exactly what I'll need as far as equipment, track, electronic needs etc before i go purchase so I don't end up getting stuff I don't need or not enough of other things. Additionally, what's the most useful tool you can think of that doing this would be difficult. I would like to think that would be a dremel and a soldering iron, but I'm sure there are others I can't think of...
Thank you!
-Drew
As you are here in the US Tortoise point motors are a better bet than Seeps.
They use a motor rather than a solenoid and are readily available here.
Code 55 looks better than Code 80 and many people here have used both in a single layout.
DCC controllers are a subjective thing. My personal taste says that US products look 'clunky' and I prefer European designs, I have a Z21.
You'll probably need a set of Jewelers screwdrivers and a drill. Also a fine tip soldering iron fior when you need to add wired decoders to models.
Regards,
John P
Hi Drew, and welcome to the forum :wave:
I'll leave the DCC stuff to others as I'm an old DC fartdinosaur.
The preferred point motor seems to be either Seep, Cobalt or Tortoise. Each have their good and bad aspects.
Trackwise I'd stick with one format, and my preferred track is Peco code 55, especially as they do a small electrofrog point which, being 12" radius, I find everything passes through with no issues. In code 80 there is no small point unless you go for set track and I'd avoid that like the plague.
Kato Unitrack is also worth considering due to its simplicity. The deep ballast base can be easily disguised.
As for tools, an adjustable temperature soldering station is pretty much a must. For track laying the ones I use most are Xuron track cutters and tracksettas to ensure constant curves and straights.
Hope this helps a little
Hello there :)
One thing I do find useful, when laying track, which I guess a few others do too, is a small hand mirror; like a lady may have in her handbag...
It lets you see all sorts of kinks and dog-legs your normal eye seem to overlook :)
Hi Drew and welcome aboard,
I am another DC runner, so cannot help you there but one item I would recommend is a re-railer. It makes getting your stock onto your track so much easier.
Cheers John.
http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=3280.0 (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=3280.0)
Look at this for a different track option. If you are going for a smaller layout it's worth considering as you are starting from scratch. As for tools, yes a soldering iron and a set of small tools like fine screwdrivers, pliers. Here you can pick up a set in a Chinese shop cheaply and as you progress upgrade them to better quality.
Good luck with your project and keep on asking questions here and of course :welcomesign:
Hi Drew, welcome . ! An American doing Brit n gauge is quite unusual ,
there are other US geezers on the forum.any queries
about the quirky uk rail system and modelling fire away !
G'day from Australia, Drew, and welcome to the NGF! :thumbsup:
Peco track is the choice of most British modellers, although Kato has a growing following. Starting from scratch, I would go with Code 55. Of course, depending on how far you want to take the hobby, you could start with Code 40! Be aware though that the points (or switches, as you call them where you live) have to be assembled.
Once again, welcome aboard. :thumbsup:
Thank you all for your responses and kind welcoming! I really very much appreciate the suggestions and input on my plans!
It seems to me that Code 55 is the way to go as far as track is concerned. Definitely will have to get some small glasses level/jewelry level screwdrivers. I had to pick up a small kit to repair a broken solder point in my Class 08 diesel, but I'll definitely need more variety!
I'll do my best to not make a complete wreck of my interpretation of the UK (specifically early 1960s British Railways). I'm sure I'll definitely be reaching out for opinion and clarification of prototypical operations and design elements, but the overall idea is that this will be a fictional route, I've nominally planned for a double track loop, with a station area with a branch bay platform with a small branch line that runs to one end of the layout and terminates. I'll add goods sidings wherever it seems to fit, but I think I'm going for a junction station to rural setting for the branch and mainline. The greatest difficulty I can see is getting my hands on UK scenery and other items that might not always be available online. I'm already thinking I'll have to scratch build an awful lot of different stuff, but I think can do it, just need loads of photographs!
@Agrippa (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=1037): Yeah, I know that not many Americans would jump at UK Railways, but I've always loved how unique they are compared to the rest of the world and their history is fantastic! I also grew up surrounded in one way or another with UK railway items. One of the first real train sets my family had when I was very little was a OO/HO gauge Cornish Rivera Express set which came with a GWR Castle Class loco, and four Hawksworth (I think) coaches. I still have the set to this day. I just hope I'll be able to the UK justice in my replication of it for my layout without offending anyone! :worried: ;D
Drew
I think the only reason one might consider Peco code 80 over Peco code 55 is that the former connects directly to Peco set track. Peco 55 has points and flex track, but no set track components. Making joins on tightish curves (i.e. 20" radius or less) with flex track is a bit tricky as the joins tend to kink. The solution is to solder the track pieces together. If you are comfortable with a soldering iron, then code 55 has no disadvantages compared to 80, and also has the advantages that is more robust as part of the track is set into the sleeper base and it looks better too.
Webbo
Many modellers of my ilk model the early British scene, me included.
You've come to the right place!
We have at least 4 members in the US modelling UK outline.
'N-Gauge-US' is in North Carolina as is 'Mustermark', while 'Chetcombe' is in Philadelphia and '47033' is in Virginia.*
I would imagine Chetcombe's layout will be the more interesting for you due to the era being modelled.
*Apologies to anyone else I may have missed.
:hellosign: and welcome
As I am italian I've also been fascinated with British Railways and now I'm brit modeller....as DCC user, after tested on my layout Arnold Central 86210' ' Roco Lokmaus and Lenz set 90, I decided to switch to Z21 central (black)....
Greetings from Italy
Marco
Personally I use digitrax controllers and chips in my farish and dapol locos, although I would recommend looking towards the tc electronics chips for 08 and 04 shutters although a dz126 can be shoe horned in. And questions feel free to reply or message.
Before you start buying track, check out places like Hattons in the UK.
In my experience its cheaper to buy track in bulk from them and have it delivered, than buying it in the US.
Regards,
John P
Don't worry about wrecking anything. Between Dr. Beeching and the British Railways board they did a pretty successful job! :(
Quote from: jpendle on April 13, 2016, 03:54:20 PM
Before you start buying track, check out places like Hattons in the UK.
In my experience its cheaper to buy track in bulk from them and have it delivered, than buying it in the US.
Regards,
John P
Yeah, I've already been using that site to order rolling stock and locos. Their prices aren't bad once you run them through a currency converter, not to mention not having to pay VAT on it as well, makes the prices a lot better! I imagine I'll probably still order plenty of stuff from them as I go along. Unfortunately this will not be something that will happen over night. I'm aiming to have it at least operational by the time my young son gets old enough to have some fun with it. Money and time will be my two biggest obstacles, but I figure as long as I have a plan and list of equipment and materials to buy, I'll be able to slowly piece it together to start when both said obstacles permit. Wife's 100% onboard and even wants to help (especially when I get to scenery etc), so I don't have to worry about that! :D
I imagine that specialty items that are really only available in the UK I'll probably have imported, but otherwise, I can make things from Woodlands Scenics etc work bought from here in the US, not buildings, but landscape items and supplies/paints etc.
I want to thank you all again for the kind welcoming and useful tips! They're definitely helping me out in my planning and research! I think when I get ready to actually start putting track to table I'll definitely be asking more questions as time goes on!
AFAIK you can't get paint delivered by mail so you have to buy it here.
DCC decoders are cheaper here than in the UK or Europe, for example you can pick up the Zimo MX622N for $28 in the US, it's nearer $35 in the UK.
I source local products here, point motors, decoders, scenery, paint, glue, etc, and get everthing else from Hattons, Osborns or the other big online UK retailers.
Regards,
John P
Don't forget you can download British style building kits from several UK websites. A really economical way of getting going and if you mess it up, you can print it as many times as you need/want.
Good luck, have fun and please keep us posted with developments.
Dave G
Quote from: jpendle on April 13, 2016, 07:02:43 PM
AFAIK you can't get paint delivered by mail so you have to buy it here.
DCC decoders are cheaper here than in the UK or Europe, for example you can pick up the Zimo MX622N for $28 in the US, it's nearer $35 in the UK.
I source local products here, point motors, decoders, scenery, paint, glue, etc, and get everthing else from Hattons, Osborns or the other big online UK retailers.
Regards,
John P
That's going to be my plan. I know I can get what I want for most of the layout within the US, it's the trains and the specialty stuff that'll need to be imported.
Quote from: daveg on April 13, 2016, 07:29:01 PM
Don't forget you can download British style building kits from several UK websites. A really economical way of getting going and if you mess it up, you can print it as many times as you need/want.
Good luck, have fun and please keep us posted with developments.
Dave G
You wouldn't happen to have links or names of those websites, would you? They sound like they'd be invaluable to me in the future! Thank you!
Re online, downloadable building kits.
Here's a couple that I'm aware of:
http://scalescenes.com/ (http://scalescenes.com/)
http://www.modelrailwayscenery.com/n-gauge-building-kits/ (http://www.modelrailwayscenery.com/n-gauge-building-kits/)
Also take a look at Metcalfe kits. These are very good and available from Hattons and other online suppliers.
HTH.
Dave G
Hi
Smart Models another source of downloadable prints
http://www.smartmodels.co.uk/ (http://www.smartmodels.co.uk/)
J
Hi Drew,
For anything on your list that is available in the US, you might want to compare prices with those from Blue Ridge Hobbies http://www.blueridgehobbies.com/ (http://www.blueridgehobbies.com/)
I have fond them to have the lowest prices for anything I have needed. Their website is a tad slow, and can be slow to reply to a inquiry, but they are dependable. I've no ties to them, other that having ordered a few times without any problems.
I would also recommend joining the N Gauge Society. The NGS Journal is a great source of info, and the shop carries as wealth of items, most at lower prices than elsewhere, and some that are difficult to source if not in the UK.
More mfrs of downloadable kits are:
http://www.3dk.ca/ (http://www.3dk.ca/)
http://shop.finescalebuildings.com/ (http://shop.finescalebuildings.com/)
http://kingswaymodels.com/ (http://kingswaymodels.com/)
http://www.wordsworthmodelrailway.co.uk/ (http://www.wordsworthmodelrailway.co.uk/)
Any of the kits you find, if not offered direct in N, can simply be scaled down before being printed.
I started with a Digitrax Zephyr years ago, with no issues. It makes a great base to going to DCC, and you can expand on it, if you want to, at a later point, with more power, and/or handheld throttles, etc..
Good luck, and have fun, with your endeavors.
Jim
Hi Drew, welcome to the friendly forum, great to have you join us. Another DCC user here and using the Digitrax Zephyr Extra, great bit of kit and easy to use plus a lot cheaper to buy all the add-ons that are needed to make full use of DCC as there are many makers of compatible Digitrax Loconet stuff.
The Zephyr Extra has ample power for N gauge, nearly all my locos are DCC with sound and I can easily run 10 at a time if needed plus quite a few more sitting around idling, modern locos take little power these days.
:welcomesign:
One thing that has not yet been mentioned is "fishplate finger". This will occur during track laying and is curable by the ingression of alcohol. Quantities depend on the severity of the affliction. :D :pint:
Fishplate Finger is inevitable and not curable but as Mito has said, the pain level diminishes dependent on alcohol consumed :pint: :pint: :pint: :pint: :pint: :pint:
An abundance of patience is also required where insulated rail joiners are concerned.
Quote from: Mito on April 14, 2016, 09:39:30 PM
One thing that has not yet been mentioned is "fishplate finger". This will occur during track laying and is curable by the ingression of alcohol. Quantities depend on the severity of the affliction. :D :pint:
I have seen a few posts here and also other places that talk about the frustration that comes from keep track all together during fitting, especially when it comes to insulated fishplates.
There was a great article in Model Railroader magazine (US) about being able to link your DCC system into a computer and then to a wifi network and using a program available on smart phones and tablets, gain extra controllers for the layout. I have the equipment to do such a thing, just curious if anybody has tried that or knows of some attempts of that nature. I don't recall the name of the program, I'll have to drag that magazine out from where ever it ended up and see. I recall when I read it that I definitely wanted to set up such a system.
Quote from: Caz on April 14, 2016, 06:40:33 PM
Hi Drew, welcome to the friendly forum, great to have you join us. Another DCC user here and using the Digitrax Zephyr Extra, great bit of kit and easy to use plus a lot cheaper to buy all the add-ons that are needed to make full use of DCC as there are many makers of compatible Digitrax Loconet stuff.
The Zephyr Extra has ample power for N gauge, nearly all my locos are DCC with sound and I can easily run 10 at a time if needed plus quite a few more sitting around idling, modern locos take little power these days.
:welcomesign:
I'm glad to hear that the starter system will be more than enough for what I need! It's definitely look like that'll be the system I go with from the get go.
Thank you all for your continued input!
Hmm. If by 'fishplates', folks are talking about rail joiners, I guess I bypassed that aolment, having always used small pliers. I did imbibe said alcohol pain reliever for eye fatigue, however ;)
Drew, regarding keeping track together, I would suggest soldering track sections as you go along. Relying only on rail joiners is iffy, especially if you are going with DCC.
As for the rest, can't help there. For me, DCC was just for the simpler wiring and ease of multi loco control, For all the rest, I want my layouts as much hands on as possible, but that's just me.
Jim
Quote from: JimF on April 15, 2016, 10:58:48 AM
Drew, regarding keeping track together, I would suggest soldering track sections as you go along. Relying only on rail joiners is iffy, especially if you are going with DCC.
Yeah, I was planning on soldering the final assembly, I was just talking about when I would be fitting the raw track pieces together to see if my track plan is valid. I think I'll probably be using the Peco printouts they have available of the points and get those in place and use flex track to fill in the gaps. What did you (or anyone else for that matter) do to maintain a proper curve radius in a bend? My experience with flex track in the past is that it was difficult to keep in a proper curve all the way from start to finish, with some sections with a more tight curve than others in the same bit of track. Are there templates or will good old fashioned math work just as well?
Thanks!
If you use Peco code 55 there is an arrow under the sleepers showing which way to bend it.
Tracksetta forming tools are available in various radii and, when bending to the radius required, you could pin the track down temporarily using corkboard pins or, if preferred, track pins through the sleepers (the Tracksettas have slots to allow this). There is also a straight Tracksetta to avoid those wavy lines ;)
I use Xuron track cutters to trim/cut the rails but make sure they are used the correct way round!
I'm not sure I'd want to solder all the track joins. There's a small but certain risk of expansion and contraction due to temperature changes. It'd also make life a bit more difficult should you want or need to change a section of track for any reason.
Peco do a series of Tracksetta metal templates:
http://www.ehattons.com/stocklist/1000407/1000589/1000783/0/Peco_Products_N_Gauge_Tools/prodlist.aspx (http://www.ehattons.com/stocklist/1000407/1000589/1000783/0/Peco_Products_N_Gauge_Tools/prodlist.aspx)
Helping you to keep control of flex track is this bit of kit:
http://www.ehattons.com/59776/Proses_FT_N_01_N_gauge_flexible_track_holder/StockDetail.aspx (http://www.ehattons.com/59776/Proses_FT_N_01_N_gauge_flexible_track_holder/StockDetail.aspx)
I've never used it but it does look like that 3rd hand you sometimes find you are short of!
HTH
Dave G
Dave, I agree, a few gaps should be left for any such changes. However, most expansion and contraction occurs with the base boards, which prevention (or minimizing effects) should be dealt with during construction, and given consideration as to where the layout is housed. It takes a huge amount of heat or cold to have any effect on the plastic and metal of the actual track.
The last N layout I built, that got to the track all being down, painted, ballasted and wired, was based on 2 hollow core doors with 1" insulation foam on top. It traveled from Florida to North Carolina in a large mover's van, sat in said truck for almost a week in high heat, then was stored in a slightly damp basement for a few months before I had a room upstairs to place it. Once dusted off, and rails cleaned, trains ran without any issues.
Drew, yes of course, the soldering I mentioned was for the final step of track installation. Using either the Peco templates or the points themselves if you have them, will work.
The layout I mentioned above was a variation on a N scale layout built by one of Model Railroader's editors, David Popp, The Naugatuck Valley RR.
I first drew out the trackplan in pencil on the sheets of brown wrapping paper, taped to the board surface. My wife had a roll of the stuff. I had already modified and ballasted my points, so I measured and then pinned the points in place, then drew a center line to connect them. For large curves, I just determined what radius I needed, then found a center point for the curve, and used a cheap wood yardstick. Drilled a hole at one end, used a small nail or brad pushed through and into the foam. Drilled another hole at my radius point, big enough to have a pencil point through it.
When I had the whole plan drawn out, and adjusted to it all flowed as I wanted, I used a small pointed tool to punch along the pencil lines, through the paper and into the foam. Removed the paper and then just connected the holes (dots?) in the foam.
It did take some time to do all the above, but I wanted to get it as correct as possible, so as to not have to mess with any major issues at a later point.
Oh, and when you do get to the soldering step, if you need to solder 2 (or more) pieces of flex, do so with them straight, on a table or the floor. You will have to remove a few sleepers at the joint, to allow the rail to slide, but you can shave off the details on the removed ones and slide them back in place after the track is down.
Hope the above is of some help.
Jim
I have a different opinion about soldering rail than Jim. I think you should bend the flex on both sides of the join into curves similar to where they will eventually be when the track is laid. Cut the longer rail on both track ends, connect up the two tracks with fishplates, and then solder the joins. The position of the join on both rails might shift somewhat when the track is put into its eventual position, but at least the joins will be approximately opposite one another. Clear as mud?
Webbo
Quote from: Webbo on April 16, 2016, 12:59:06 PM
I have a different opinion about soldering rail than Jim. I think you should bend the flex on both sides of the join into curves similar to where they will eventually be when the track is laid. Cut the longer rail on both track ends, connect up the two tracks with fishplates, and then solder the joins. The position of the join on both rails might shift somewhat when the track is put into its eventual position, but at least the joins will be approximately opposite one another. Clear as mud?
Webbo
I read somewhere that if you solder track on a curve to stagger the joints by a few centimeters so that the rail supports the opposite rail. Getting a bit muddier I think! :confused1:
Makes sense Mito. A possible downside would be that you'd have to remove more sleepers around the join. I can see that offsetting the rail joins may be more advantageous on tight bends where the kinking forces would be higher than on more gradual curves (and on joining flex on bends without soldering).
Webbo
Great advice from John. I buy all my track from Hattons, they have great prices, great customer service and you also save 20% off the prices because they deduct the VAT (tax).
Shipping is also very, very reasonable. I usually have them ship Royal Mail insured but For flexible track I go with DHL, it's oversize and can only go DHL but is still very reasonable.
Hattons allow you to choose the method of shipping and quote you the cost prior to checkout in the shopping cart. Absolutely fantastic, it's all there upfront. One other thing is their inventory level is very accurate, unlike some other vendors. Their website and ordering system is about the best I've come across.
Jamie
Quote from: 47033 on April 17, 2016, 04:11:32 AM
Great advice from John. I buy all my track from Hattons, they have great prices, great customer service and you also save 20% off the prices because they deduct the VAT (tax).
Shipping is also very, very reasonable. I usually have them ship Royal Mail insured but For flexible track I go with DHL, it's oversize and can only go DHL but is still very reasonable.
Hattons allow you to choose the method of shipping and quote you the cost prior to checkout in the shopping cart. Absolutely fantastic, it's all there upfront. One other thing is their inventory level is very accurate, unlike some other vendors. Their website and ordering system is about the best I've come across.
Jamie
Yeah, you really can't beat the not paying VAT on stuff! I have ordered from them and will probably continue to for rolling stock and items which aren't easily acquired over here in the US. Really awesome shop!
Joints on flex curves was discussed earlier this year here: http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=31168.msg355317#msg355317 (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=31168.msg355317#msg355317)
Jon