N Gauge Forum

My wife says I spend too much on my model railway – but putting everything into perspective – it costs a lot more to run and maintain a motor car these days.

I thought I was getting away with cheap motoring over here as I don't pay road tax on my Classic Car, and petrol is only about the equivalent of 70 pence a Litre, and to-date the car has required very little spending on it in the 11 years we have lived here.

However when I got a local Garage to inspect the underside recently, they found most of the bushes, bearings, and track rod ends were shot and needed replacing.

No problem getting new parts, but getting the old ones off (which have been on for 38 years) proved a bit of a nightmare and has taken nearly a month of cutting and hammering.

The overall bill for parts & labour came to nearly €1,200, but would have cost a lot more if the job had been done in the U.K. The "top" side of the car I am perfectly capable of fixing myself, and touch wood everything is in good working order as far as engine and transmission, etc., is concerned.   

Looking forward to driving the car again, as much as I look forward to running trains on my layout.

Almost every hobby takes up time and money
It really depends on what you like

Some people have numerous hobbies and interests, but spend very little on each one, but when you total them up it can be quite staggering

I like my computers, travel, photography, model trains, and driving
I have been saving for my model trains since 2009
Last year I spent serious money on a three month holiday and a new car
This year I am spending that money saved for model trains
Once the layout is completed next year I am not likely spend any more money, so the money gets diverted to other interests
Puts it all in perspective really

Presumably the value of your Classic Car increases year by year by an amount greater than whatever you spend to maintain it ?

Best regards,


Joe

Quote from: joe cassidy on September 18, 2015, 07:51:13 PM
Presumably the value of your Classic Car increases year by year by an amount greater than whatever you spend to maintain it ?
Best regards,
Joe

Good Triumph Stags are now commanding high prices at Auctions and with specialist retailers,
and I would say mine is now worth more than double what I paid for it some 21 years ago, especially as it is a MK2 and one of the last off the Production Line. 

I have no intention of selling it though as I love driving it. The mechanic who has just completed the necessary underside repairs, said that he had loads of people who came to his Garage wanting to know if it was for Sale and wanting to buy it.

Not in "concours" condition as it is a daily driver car (almost), but it still looks good and attracts lots of admiring glances.  A picture of it out & about in Tenerife appears below.
Note the bootrack which is highly suited for picking up a large packet of model railway purchases from "Hattons"!

(http://i379.photobucket.com/albums/oo231/Tdmak/Car%20Photos/IMG_0036-1.jpg) (http://s379.photobucket.com/user/Tdmak/media/Car%20Photos/IMG_0036-1.jpg.html)

A hobby costs as much as you want it to cost. You can 'play trains' quite cheaply if you buy second-hand stuff, recycle, and are modest in your ambitions. Or you can have a massive Gauge 1 live steam layout in your garden which probably costs about the same as a very smart car. Other hobbies can be just as expensive. My fiancée has about a dozen musical instruments (not even top of the range ones) one of which cost nearly three thousand pounds. Golf? I know nothing about it, but I would imagine a decent set of clubs would be several hundred pounds, not to mention the trolley, club membership etc. Cycling? You can pay 4 figures for a pushbike. My stepson and his wife have six. God knows why...

I'm sure your wife has interests of her own. If she thinks you are spending too much, work out how much you can afford to spend on hobbies each month and divide it between you. No argument then!

Happy modelling,

Chris

When I first got some N gauge, I envisaged a real 'train set' - an oval of track round the desk, a loco or two and a few items of rolling stock and that'd be that.
And now I've spent about £270 on track, approximately £600 on rolling stock and around £600 on locomotives. There's also about £500 extra to consider with all the gifts I've received. So in short, I'd say what I have has cost just shy of £1500 - not a bad cost over nearly 4 years. I reckon my BMW cost me that over my two years of ownership in all the new bits I bought for it, rear tyres I smoked and all the electronic bits which went wrong!
Like others have said, hobbies can be made as expensive as you like, regardless of 'entry' costs; you just need to make sure your spending doesn't outweigh the pleasure you're getting from them!

I have cars, currently in storage, and audio equipment, currently in use, that far exceeds the cost of trains. Plus considering the age of my kids, trains are a hobby we can do together, while the other stuff is really just for me.

As already said, it's what you feel you can spend. If you start thinking you have to take out loans for your hobbies, you should probably re-think.

I have a Railway Modeller magazine in which then state of the art' Minitrix 'Warships' are being advertised at 100/- (£5.00 in the 'toy town' currency we use these days).
Today I can buy an (almost 'state of the art') 'Warship' for £100 and add things like sound chips (unthinkable in 1971) for around half as much again (say £150 in total).

BUT

Let's compare incomes. In 1971 I had just started work and my weekly pay (after stoppages) was £7.01.00 (£7.05) for a 40 hour week, rising at 18 to a full man's wage of £10.10.00 (£10.50). 
In other words I could, if I wanted, buy two Warships a week.
When I retired last year my weekly take home pay was just over £600 so I could have purchased six Warships (or four fitted with sound chips) had I a mind to.

In 'real terms' the cost of locomotives has actually gone down (relative to wages) but, having said that, in line with other members where we have discussed the matter £100 (approximately) is the 'cut off' point for buying locomotives. Beyond that it becomes very difficult to justify the money on a hobby.

Quote from: D1042 Western Princess on September 19, 2015, 07:00:37 AM
In 'real terms' the cost of locomotives has actually gone down (relative to wages) but, having said that, in line with other members where we have discussed the matter £100 (approximately) is the 'cut off' point for buying locomotives. Beyond that it becomes very difficult to justify the money on a hobby.

I agree with D1042.

On the one hand the modern 'Warship' is immeasurably better than the Minitrix one, and much more research and development was put into making the model look like the real thing. However good the basic mechanism inside the Minitrix model, any attempt at aesthetics was essentially limited to a broadly 'Warship'-like shape and an approximately similar livery using whatever paint and decals happened to be handy!

However, I do think the £100 barrier remains a real psychological one for all but the most affluent (or profligate) modellers. Below that number it's a pocket money toy no worse than a tank of petrol or the weekly grocery shop, but above £100 you start comparing your model train to the cost of a new fridge, servicing the car, or whatever other expenses you have that month. Of course you can prudently lay away £50 a month until you have enough for your £300 'Pendolino' or whatever, but if you're on a budget that's a lot easier said than done when other things need to be paid for.

The fact that inflation has been close to zero for a few years now exacerbates the situation, I think. It's a tough problem. Do manufacturers design to a price or to a standard? Both are compelling arguments that appeal to parts of the hobby.

The various kickstarter projects are probably the best way to gauge which way the hobby wants to go. Take the Country Rolling Stock 'Mermaid' ballast wagon. £18.75 for a single model (yes, I know there are discounts for multiple purchases). How many people will want to pay £18.75 for a single four-wheel wagon built to the highest modern standards? If the answer is "lots of people", then that's a good sign the hobby is going towards expensive but excellent models. If the answer is "not enough to get the project off the ground" then the answer may be that there aren't enough people in the hobby with overflowing bank balances.

Cheers, NeMo

Model railways are a pretty cheap hobby in my opinion. I have approximately 40 locos and 250 freight cars. Sounds like a lot, but. Say the locos are worth $100 each to buy new and the freight cars are $20 each, the total comes to $9000. With track, building kits, scenery materials and electronic goodies we can add another $6000 making a grand total of about 15 grand invested in this hobby by me. Considering that this investment has occurred over 15 years that works out to $1000 per year. This is a fraction of what it costs to run a car with servicing, depreciation, insurance, and repairs not to mention the money spent on other essentials including housing, medical, and food.

Building a model railway is cheap at even half the price.

Webbo

Quote from: Papyrus on September 18, 2015, 08:29:55 PM
I'm sure your wife has interests of her own. If she thinks you are spending too much, work out how much you can afford to spend on hobbies each month and divide it between you. No argument then!

This is exactly how things work here :) The rent comes out of Clare's account, so we have a little spreadsheet with all the regular bills on (leccy, gas, Sky, ccl tax, shared car costs, etc) and all the food-shopping for the previous month. At the bottom is the figure I transfer to her to pay my (adjusted) half. The way it works out is that we both have an equal amount left to spend on whatever we want ;)


Paul

Quote from: Webbo on September 19, 2015, 09:34:16 AM
Say the locos are worth $100 each to buy new

But they're not. British outline N-gauge locos are nearer the £100 mark ($216 Australian) and increasingly over that price.

If British N-gauge locos were $100 Australian, i.e., £46, then we wouldn't be having this discussion! We'd all be at the loco train shop buying new toys!

Cheers, NeMo

Quote from: NeMo on September 19, 2015, 08:46:58 AM

On the one hand the modern 'Warship' is immeasurably better than the Minitrix one, and much more research and development was put into making the model look like the real thing. However good the basic mechanism inside the Minitrix model, any attempt at aesthetics was essentially limited to a broadly 'Warship'-like shape and an approximately similar livery using whatever paint and decals happened to be handy!

Cheers, NeMo

No disagreement from me there NeMo, but we should also remember what things were like in 1971. Manufacturers no doubt did their best but by modern standards their best was very poor. Laser scanning, CAD and other modern developments were like 'science fiction' back then and if you had even hinted that something as small as an N gauge loco could not only have individual control, but make lifelike sounds and so on as it went along they'd have carted you away 'to lie down'  :)!
Going slightly off topic, but with good reason, (just for a minute) and given the massive improvements of the past 45 years it makes me wonder what developments will occur by the year 2060!
Best wishes,
Greg.

Hello all,

I understand that with hobbies, as with cars, houses or holidays, not all of us can afford to spend the same amount.

But I have never understood why people refer to £100 for a loco as a "psychological barrier."  Is there a similar barrier with cars?  Or CD players?  Or golf clubs?

If I want a particular item I'll look at it and then balance up its my view of its quality against my desire to have it and the price it is.

Also, bear in mind the £300 Pendolino is, in effect, two locomotives plus seven coaches, of three different types.  So allowing £100 for each locomotive, this means the coaches are, in effect, just over £14 each, which represents super value in my view.  Or, if we value the coaches at £20 (less than new Mk1s at Hattons) then each loco is the equivalent of £80.  Still very good value.

cheers

Ben A.

I agree with Ben A  :)

I admit sometimes I look at the price of new models and think, the prices are getting higher, but then I look at the quality and think wow (I know its a subject for another posting but the only thing that worries me is reliability sometimes:)).

I must admit I still love finding a bargain, but I apply the rule if your not happy with the price don't buy it, I think the problem most of us have is we probably accumulate too much stock. I mean I'm supposed to be an LMS fan, but I must have nearly 50 loco's from other companies. Then there is my habit of collecting PO wagons as if they are going out of fashion and tank wagons, and Pullmans (the older ones).

All I tend to do if asked by the Domestic Overlord about my trains is say they were cheap.........am I wrong?

In reply to both Ben and Paul (above) it really depends on 'disposable income' and personal circumstances as to what is 'expensive' - it's all relative.
Certainly, when working, £100 was not regarded as 'prohibitively expensive' but now retired, and on a pension, it looks very different.
I hope this goes some way to answering their questions.

Quote from: NeMo on September 19, 2015, 10:01:49 AM

Quote from: Webbo on September 19, 2015, 09:34:16 AM
Say the locos are worth $100 each to buy new

But they're not. British outline N-gauge locos are nearer the £100 mark ($216 Australian) and increasingly over that price.

If British N-gauge locos were $100 Australian, i.e., £46, then we wouldn't be having this discussion! We'd all be at the loco train shop buying new toys!

Cheers, NeMo

Who said my 40 locos were British outline? I have 4 British locos and all the rest are Kato, Atlas, Intermountain, Concor, and Fox Valley. Over the last 15 years the MSRP of these locos would average a bit above the $100 US mark but with the typical web discount (20-30%) or deals offered by US online retailers the price would be a bit less than $100. Of course the Australian $ has gone up and down compared to USD and it is not so good at the moment. Nevertheless Nemo's statement that British locos being up around £100 seems to be about right. British outline is expensive.

Webbo

Quote from: paulprice on September 19, 2015, 11:27:27 AM
All I tend to do if asked by the Domestic Overlord about my trains is say they were cheap.........am I wrong?

You're correct - compared to individually hand-crafted masterpieces, modern RTR is a positive bargain ;)

I keep chastizing myself for spending money, but then I remember I don't have any other hobbies and no car. I've reached about 90 powered units (locos and multiple units) in 14 months, though many of those are Japanese and dirt cheap relatively speaking. Only one GBP100+ loco so far, most of the rest have been bargains or 2nd hand.

Quote from: Ben A on September 19, 2015, 11:18:19 AM
But I have never understood why people refer to £100 for a loco as a "psychological barrier."  Is there a similar barrier with cars?  Or CD players?  Or golf clubs?

Yes, yes it is similar in other hobbies and for that matter other purchases. The actual number varies of course, but these barriers are real and the market adapts to them. So whether or not you understand them is irrelevant, they're there, and economists and businesspeople discuss them and deal with (and to some degree trick consumers into ignoring them).

As I've said above, the acid test will be when all these kickstarter projects actually get sold. If £19 'Mermaids' sell by the boatload, then that shows the market is happy to pay for quality regardless of price. But if the kickstarter doesn't get off the ground, then I think that's a fair sign that price is an issue, whether or not we like it, and that people will prefer to buy a £12 'Grampus' from Dapol over a £19 'Mermaid' from CRS.

I suspect your 'Pendolino' is a bit atypical because there's pent-up demand for this model and, as you say, you get quite a lot of train for your money. Things like the 'Mermaid' and the N-Train ready-to-run EMU kits are a bit more reflective of reality. They're niche products going up against things existing, lower-cost mass-produced models. If they sell well, then as I say, the argument for more expensive but better models in N-gauge is made.

Quote from: Ben A on September 19, 2015, 11:18:19 AM
Also, bear in mind the £300 Pendolino is, in effect, two locomotives plus seven coaches, of three different types.  So allowing £100 for each locomotive, this means the coaches are, in effect, just over £14 each, which represents super value in my view.  Or, if we value the coaches at £20 (less than new Mk1s at Hattons) then each loco is the equivalent of £80.  Still very good value.

I don't disagree, but so much depends on the individual shopper. If you've got a good but averagely paid job (say, £25,000 to £30,000 a year) and a young family and mortgage, setting aside £300 is doable but still requiring you to set aside a far amount of money per month. The average monthly disposable income in the UK (according to Google, at least) is £224.50. Spending under half of that on a toy train isn't beyond the realms of possibility, hence the popularity of special offers when locos get sold at £50-75 a pop. But once you start talking about £200 or £300 for a train... well, you can see how that compares to that average disposable income.

Model trains are an expensive hobby. Not crazy expensive (I've got two telescopes that each cost around £1700 each, plus eyepieces that cost anything up to £400 each). But once you start adding up all the locos, rolling stock, electricals and of course the layout, it racks up.

Cheers, NeMo

Quote from: Webbo on September 19, 2015, 11:43:44 AM
Who said my 40 locos were British outline? I have 4 British locos and all the rest are Kato, Atlas, Intermountain, Concor, and Fox Valley. Over the last 15 years the MSRP of these locos would average a bit above the $100 US mark but with the typical web discount (20-30%) or deals offered by US online retailers the price would be a bit less than $100. Of course the Australian $ has gone up and down compared to USD and it is not so good at the moment. Nevertheless Nemo's statement that British locos being up around £100 seems to be about right. British outline is expensive.

Yes, that was my point. I checked your layout before replying, and it's a very impressive US outline. I wish I had that space! US stuff is a lot cheaper than UK stuff though, presumably because the market is so much bigger.

Cheers, NeMo

I once had to fend off spousal comment about expenditure on my railway and slot car (my other vice) hobby.
I said that, unlike her 7 dogs and 2 cows (Don't ask - the cows don't give milk and will never ever be eaten, they are just pets) my toy cars and trains don't eat every day and I repair myself so don't need to call the vet in to fix them.
I said that provided the topic was closed there, I would not introduce shoes and handbags into the discussion.
Been OK since then  ;D

As has already been pointed out here, Australian retail prices for British N gauge are huge. Unfortunately, that's the way it will remain, methinks.

Quote from: NeMo on September 19, 2015, 11:54:54 AM
Yes, yes it is similar in other hobbies and for that matter other purchases. The actual number varies of course, but these barriers are real and the market adapts to them. So whether or not you understand them is irrelevant, they're there, and economists and businesspeople discuss them and deal with (and to some degree trick consumers into ignoring them).

<snipped>

Cheers, NeMo

Last time I bought a car I knew what my budget was (with a degree of flexibility) and then looked to see what I could get for the money.  But my budget was my own figure - admittedly rounded to the nearest thousand - it wasn't an amount somehow externally imposed by group-think.  In my household other hobbies of other family members include fish-keeping, horse-riding and attending sports matches.  At no time have I ever heard any mention of a price barrier whether it be for a new fishtank, or item of tack, or ticket for a sporting event. 

I accept that companies will always try to entice us to spend as much as possible - that's business - and as a sales tactic I can see that a nice round number (everything's £1!  Or 3 for £10!) can be successful.

I also accept that economists and businesspeople will often discuss as "fact" perceived trends or behaviours for which evidence is sketchy or just anecdotal. 

I suspect there is also a degree of confirmation bias here - if one person has a personal barrier of £100 for a loco then they're likely to remember other opinions that chime with that, and forget or discard those that don't.

I remain unconvinced about the idea of a "psychological barrier" that somehow affects everyone in the market.  Maybe a few people, some of the time, but right now I don't have an issue whether a loco is £90 or £115 - if I like it, and it satisfies my criteria, I'll get it.  If it doesn't, or I've spent that month's hobby money already, then I won't.

cheers

Ben A.

 :drool:

Quote from: Bealman on September 19, 2015, 12:03:48 PM
As has already been pointed out here, Australian retail prices for British N gauge are huge. Unfortunately, that's the way it will remain, methinks.

I walked into a model shop in Melbourne - the one under the station. Once I found the Graham Farish stuff and looked at the prices, I nearly fell over!

£100 is only a psychological barrier "now" - Because it is a jump to three figures, I presume the next one will be £150 as a regular price (cos its nearer to £200).

Its like the £1 /£2 / £3 pint of beer, people say they wont have it but when it happens they do have - Just maybe not so often.

One thing I've found useful are Nectar points, which can be converted into eBay vouchers. I've used them to buy at least one brand new loco plus several coaches. My wife finds my new found loyalty to Sainsburys very amusing!

I've also found that going Japanese has helped my modelling budget stretch further. The locos and stock are generally cheaper than UK outline to begin with, and careful internet shopping can lower the costs even more. For the totemic £100 figure mentioned above, one can quite easily purchase two brand new Kato locos.....

But the two things it really comes down to are budget and perspective really. I've now got a monthly budget, most recently saved up to buy a special railcar set I was after. But in perspective terms, we're all investing in stuff that has got some resale value and might even accumulate in value. Which is more than you can say for pints of beer and football season tickets, not that there's anything wrong with them either. But literally,you pay your money and take your choice.

Quote from: Ben A on September 19, 2015, 12:30:07 PM
Last time I bought a car I knew what my budget was (with a degree of flexibility) and then looked to see what I could get for the money.  But my budget was my own figure - admittedly rounded to the nearest thousand - it wasn't an amount somehow externally imposed by group-think.

Ah, you misunderstand me. Psychological price barriers aren't group-think, but rather ballpark descriptions at points at which significant numbers of potential purchasers are turned away. They vary with what's been sold. Nobody is saying that there's a telepathic link between all cars purchasers that means they all want something (new) for under £15,000... but rather the retailers have discerned trends that means at various price points the number of potential purchasers drops off significantly. It's why we see many times more stuff sold at £9.99 than £10.01, even though the real difference between those prices is trivial. So for example Waitrose will sell more bottles of wine just under £10 than just over it, and you'll see a lot of stuff on their shelves at £8.99 or £9.99 but relatively few bottles at £10.99 or £11.99. However irrational it might seem, it's the way shoppers think.

Quote from: Ben A on September 19, 2015, 12:30:07 PM
I suspect there is also a degree of confirmation bias here - if one person has a personal barrier of £100 for a loco then they're likely to remember other opinions that chime with that, and forget or discard those that don't.

And that's exactly what I've been saying. There are two possible options here. Either the market will be enticed to buy increasingly expensive but almost flawless models, or it won't. I say again: I'd put the 'Pendolino' aside because it isn't typical of the projects. But the 'Mermaid' is, and the Class 320/321 probably will be too. If the market launches these projects via lots of pre-orders, then Ben, you're absolutely correct. But if the market fails to support something like the 'Mermaid' or the Class 320/321, then it may well be that these psychological barriers exist and potential kickstarters have to think about it. £19 for a single 4-wheel wagon may or may not be too much for modellers to spend... we shall have to see.

In short, my point is that people are indeed re-stating their opinions. What we need to recognise (and what I keep talking about but nobody comments on) is that the acid test for increasingly expensive kickstarter projects is how well they do. Until I see one of these premium projects get off the ground I'm afraid I agree with D1042 that price *does* matter, and that for the hobby to grow, there may be a time manufacturers "design clever" (to use Hornby's phrase) and produce (perhaps just some) models that are good rather than great but sell at a reasonable price. Union Mills, I'd argue, does exactly that, though not explicitly so, and in such small volume that its impact on the model shop side of the retail business is zero.

Cheers, NeMo

Quote from: JasonBz on September 19, 2015, 01:33:07 PM
Its like the £1 /£2 / £3 pint of beer, people say they wont have it but when it happens they do have - Just maybe not so often.

Or the nearly £5 a pint at a BAe reunion in a Holiday Inn recently !
I was so flabbergasted, I only had one !
It reminded me of why I brew my own at a fraction of the cost, Oh ! look another topic for the "Other Hobbies" section :) :)

Ben

Interesting that you mention sports matches. If you don't mind me asking, would that include football matches? I know there has been a great deal of coverage in the past of how expensive this has become (especially for a dad with two kids if he wants to go and watch his Premiership team week in, week out). That said, how do you ration a set number of spectator seats in a stadium if there are more supporters than seats? Economists would argue price is the most efficient allocator of resources (in this case stadium seats).

Back to model railways, I'll go with the majority in that you can spend as little (above a certain threshold) or as much, as you like on this hobby. The beauty of this hobby (well, one of them) is when building a model railway (or collection) you can add to it when funds permit. Most people don't build a model railway over night, it takes months, perhaps years, and so funds need not be found all in one go. The famous mantra is that a model railway is never finished.

Once a model railway is built (whether self built or bought) then I think the satisfaction derived need not come from spending more money. It comes from devising an operating system, be it a card and waybill system or a timetable. This is what will sustain interest over the years, rather than just "playing trains" and running a loco as the mood takes you. Whilst there's nothing wrong with running a loco as your mood takes you, it won't sustain a 1-2hr operating session I would have thought, whereas a methodical operating system / schedule will. Such a system can be devised for a small yard layout with only one loco and a handful of wagons - you don't need fifty locos all sitting in sidings waiting their turn. At this point the marginal (on going costs) of the hobby are minimal.

Where I think the "big money" issues come are with buying newly released stock on a regular basis. Again, nothing wrong with this if it's your thing, but it's a different sense of gratification to me. Building and operating a layout over many years gives "slow release" gratification, much like building a boat or landscaping and maturing your garden. Adding stock to your collection is more of the "sugar rush" gratification, a quick shot in the arm which is great, but needs replenishing since it doesn't last long. That to me is no different to collecting / buying any manner of things.

Just my thoughts / opinions - would be happy to hear a counter arguement should you feel there is one.

Sorry Ben, the first paragraph was just to really add to your informative post above, the rest of the post is posed more generally to the wider forum.

Dan

Quote from: JasonBz on September 19, 2015, 01:33:07 PM
£100 is only a psychological barrier "now" - Because it is a jump to three figures, I presume the next one will be £150 as a regular price (cos its nearer to £200).

Its like the £1 /£2 / £3 pint of beer, people say they wont have it but when it happens they do have - Just maybe not so often.

Ah - wait until you get to the sometimes £8-£10 pint (or should I say 500ml) that I have to put up with!  :confused1:

Sorry for bombarding this thread with posts guys, I'm just thinking out aloud and as soon as I post, something else comes to mind.

It just occurred to me that in my rather longish post just now we really are talking about two different hobbies. Perhaps even three. One is building a model railway. One is operating a model railway, and another is collecting stock. All three are different and appeal to different subsets of railway modelling.

Some people like building layouts, but get bored operating them. Others like to buy a ready made layout just to operate their trains. Others still like displaying all their prized possessions in display cases and don't even have a controller and piece if track to operate them on.

Of course there are people who cross all three sections (probably most of us) but I think the three are distinctively different when it comes to the discussion of costs.

Again, just my thoughts.

Dan

Hello all,

Dan - I'm not a regular sports fan but occasionally go to watch horse-racing (my Dad is keen) and my brother-in-law is a season ticket holder for an English premiership club. I know he just shrugs every time the new ticket price is announced.  You're right, they do control demand with price.  A similar tactic to that used on the real railways to encourage those of us who can be flexible to travel off peak, and fill their empty trains.

Nemo - Yes, I see your point about the Waitrose bottles of wine and yes, a £9.99 will sell ahead of a £10.99 bottle.  But to make it more analagous to model railways, if the £9.99 wine was from, say, Chile and the £10.99 was from Italy then I would probably buy the Italian because I happen to like Italian wine.  Similarly, if a loco I don't need is at £90, while that new Class XYZ that I want is at £110, I'll buy the loco I want.  I won't *not* buy it because there is another, cheaper loco on the market, or that somehow I have decided £100 as an uncrossable threshold.

Also, crowd-fundung schemes tend to deflate, not inflate prices.  One of the advantages of those I have been involved with is that those who support them are effectively obtaining a factory price, since the retailer margin is cut out.  That is the benefit they earn by pledging cash upfront.  So our TEA wagons are £26 (£27 for EWS version due to licencing fees) while a similarly detailed Farish bogie model nowadays is pushing £35-40 even at box-shifter prices.  This probably is harsh on retailers, and makes it hard for manufacturers, but is a new reality of the market.  The question for crowd-funding is not really one of price IMO but of model choice and confidence: ie are they offering what I want and can I trust them with my money and to delivery a good model?

Desert Hound - really good point about the hobby having different facets, and different spending thresholds in each.   After all, for CJM customers the £500 loco is the norm.  I think the collector market has considerably more financial clout than we may realise.

cheers

Ben A.

Wait, £26 or £35-40 for a single wagon?  :goggleeyes: That sound you hear is my wallet giving thanks that I have no interest in British freight.

Hi Railsquid,

Be even more grateful you have no interest in continental freight then!

Though seriously I think this cuts to the heart of the discussion.

The TEA tankers we are doing look, on the face of it, all the same.  They're in red, blue, grey VTG colours, EWS grey and blue and green Greenergy liveries. 

But closer research revealed numerous differences between batches.  These include the positioning of the filler caps, the discharge nozzles, the brake gear and the bogie dampers.

The main components - tank, catwalks, bogies are all the same.  But for the detail parts we had to pay to tool up alternate items to satisfy all these variations.

So this is where the cost rises.

If we had limited ourselves to just one livery we probably would not have seen adequate interest to make the model happen; if we had decided to compromise and offer all the liveries but in most cases not-quite-correct we would rightly have faced criticsm for producing inaccurate models.

So as far as we can each livery has the correct combination of hatches, brake gear, nozzles etc and OK £26 may feel like a premium price (though really it isn't nowadays) but this is a very thoroughly researched premium item.

Apologies if this is sounding too much like sales blurb but I am attempting to illustrate the context of all the decision making that we have taken to get to where we are - and designers at Farish and Dapol, or Atlas and Kato, are making similar decisions all the time.

The advantage of course that Kato or Atlas have is that their sales are likely to be measured in tens of thousands, so those tooling costs can be spread across far more models, and on a big production run the factory is likely to offer a lower unit cost too.

cheers

Ben A.

I appreciate that a lot of work goes into producing a new wagon, and it may be that around £20 for a 4-wheel wagon like the mermaid is appropriate in those terms, but for someone who wants to run a realistic length train of around 40 wagons it comes to £800 which is a lot of money, then when you add a brake van and loco you are looking at nearly £1000 for one train.

Quote from: steve836 on September 19, 2015, 09:41:40 PM
I appreciate that a lot of work goes into producing a new wagon, and it may be that around £20 for a 4-wheel wagon like the mermaid is appropriate in those terms, but for someone who wants to run a realistic length train of around 40 wagons it comes to £800 which is a lot of money, then when you add a brake van and loco you are looking at nearly £1000 for one train.

Just like the surety of death and taxes, one day £1000 for a train will be cheap.

Webbo

I personally think of my railway as a way of staying "sane" and if I want something I am prepared to pay for it if Locos cost in excess of £100 and larger bogie stock £25+ so be it, for me it is well worth it. If I was to add up all I have spent on my Hobby it would probably be in excess of £10,000 but when you look at what I used to spend on cigarettes and booze I am way ahead of the game and I have something to show for it.

Yes, Di, everyone spends money on something! And whenever I've changed scale etc I've always been able to cash in my old items for a reasonable value. I think it's also worth remembering what has already been hinted at on this forum: the relative cost of model railways has if anything gone down. A 1957 Hornby Dublo Duchess set would cost £270 in 2015 prices (some £12 in 1957). The equivalent Farish Duchess set can be obtained for £131. Expensive as it may seem to us, I suspect that most of us have stock boxes that a 1960s modeller would simply gape at.

Quote from: Ben A on September 19, 2015, 06:41:23 PM
Hi Railsquid,

Be even more grateful you have no interest in continental freight then!

Yup, I appreciate the economics of the situation, just somehow my brain still expresses surprise that a wagon can cost more than a coach.

If I were into freight, sure I'd bite the bullet, but at those prices I couldn't justify them as casual acquisitions; I'd rather put the money towards a 21/29  :thumbsup:

Quote from: Irish Padre on September 20, 2015, 09:11:05 AM
Expensive as it may seem to us, I suspect that most of us have stock boxes that a 1960s modeller would simply gape at.

No question about that, and the quality of today's r-t-r equipment is well above what the best scratchbuilders were obtaining back then.
But, as I've said before, it's not about how much a thing costs, as such, as much as about how big a percentage of your disposable income it eats up in order to obtain it.
When I was working £150 for a model loco was an easy buy and could probably get two a week with a bit of 'pocket money' left over (if that's what I wanted) but my pension, while good by many standards, means a model of that price is now a major outlay and I might, perhaps, only be able get one a month were I so inclined. This is one reason why I have a self imposed 'cut off' of £100 max. I just find it hard to justify spending more on a hobby.
As I said, it's not 'costs' but 'percentages of disposable income' which limits purchases in the hobby.

Understood, but even so I suspect that in relation to our modelling forebears many of us can probably allocate a greater proportion of our income to modelling. Go back fifty years and you probably wouldn't find many people able to buy even one loco a month.....

What fascinates me about this debate is the wider issue of social and economic change, particularly in the UK. I do think, however, that this is a good era in which to be a modeller. Whatever budget you're on, it's possible to model something with reasonable fidelity. For me, the budget is maximised by using Japanese stock and careful secondhand/sale purchases. Others have a rigid chronological or regional acquisition policy. But whatever you choose, I think the current model railway economy offers more entry points and possibilities than ever before.

Quote from: NeMo on September 19, 2015, 11:56:36 AM

Quote from: Webbo on September 19, 2015, 11:43:44 AM
Who said my 40 locos were British outline? I have 4 British locos and all the rest are Kato, Atlas, Intermountain, Concor, and Fox Valley. Over the last 15 years the MSRP of these locos would average a bit above the $100 US mark but with the typical web discount (20-30%) or deals offered by US online retailers the price would be a bit less than $100. Of course the Australian $ has gone up and down compared to USD and it is not so good at the moment. Nevertheless Nemo's statement that British locos being up around £100 seems to be about right. British outline is expensive.

Yes, that was my point. I checked your layout before replying, and it's a very impressive US outline. I wish I had that space! US stuff is a lot cheaper than UK stuff though, presumably because the market is so much bigger.

Cheers, NeMo

The difference in market size may be part of the price difference between US and UK stuff, but I suspect there is more to the story than just this. Even though the US has a population that is roughly 6 times bigger than that of the UK, there are many more N scale manufacturers selling into the US market including Kato, Atlas, ConCor, Intermountain, Fox Valley Models, LifeLike, ModelPower, Athearn, Rapido, and yes Bachmann. I suspect that the UK has a relatively greater popularity of N than the US due to many if not most US houses having basements. Even though it's likely that the size of the market is a contributor to price disparity, but I suspect a couple of other reasons are that the UK market seems to operate as a duopoly with competition on prices not what it might be. Also, even online businesses need to employ people and the UK I suspect has higher labour costs due to higher minimum wages and the requirement to pay for overheads such as health, pensions, and welfare through VAT, income tax, and company tax that the US operations are less subject to. In effect, some of the extra price we pay for UK locos and rolling stock is attributable to our living in social democracies.

Webbo

Quote from: Irish Padre on September 19, 2015, 01:34:28 PM
I've also found that going Japanese has helped my modelling budget stretch further. The locos and stock are generally cheaper than UK outline to begin with, and careful internet shopping can lower the costs even more. For the totemic £100 figure mentioned above, one can quite easily purchase two brand new Kato locos.....

And for those of us in Japan, three brand new locos with change left for a bit of stock to run behind at least one of them  :D (though if you want plug'n'play DCC you'll be disappointed). FWIW, today for about £100 total I came home with a 6-car Shinkansen and 2 (two) locomotives, all 2nd hand but in as-new condition. Do however note that while the Kato/Tomix range of popular trains are relatively cheap (albeit with limited or no DCC compatibility, which will add direct or indirect expense to anyone wanting to run them on DCC), if you want to run specific models particular to various private lines, it can get a whole lot more expensive.

Anyway, kind of going back to the original topic, I'm basically blowing through a small inheritance on trains; I should be doing the boring thing and investing it, but it's providing a lot more value to me like that than sitting in the bank.

I'd also go on the "percentage of disposable income" factor, too.

However, due to the rising cost of new locos and stock over the last few years, I've spent more on secondhand purchases and only bought new as a result of trade-ins, for evaluation or if I wanted was likely to sell out quickly.

I try and model realistic short trains - imagine the total cost of a steam era "Windcutter" lengthy mineral freight or a full-length HST, even if built up over time - short trains require fewer stock, and overall less spending.

Another factor often understated is investment in baseboards, track and electrics, which tends to be long-term. Recently I've spent a lot on Kato Unitrack and Dio-Town parts for when I may not have room to have a permanent set-up available.

Quote from: Webbo on September 20, 2015, 09:42:15 AM
Even though it's likely that the size of the market is a contributor to price disparity, but I suspect a couple of other reasons are that the UK market seems to operate as a duopoly with competition on prices not what it might be. Also, even online businesses need to employ people and the UK I suspect has higher labour costs due to higher minimum wages and the requirement to pay for overheads such as health, pensions, and welfare through VAT, income tax, and company tax that the US operations are less subject to. In effect, some of the extra price we pay for UK locos and rolling stock is attributable to our living in social democracies.

Webbo

Hi Webbo,

You're right about labour costs - it was to keep prices low that everyone moved their production to China in the 1990s.  Now the Chinese workers are demanding the same kind of employment conditions and living standards we enjoy their labour costs are increasing drastically, which is why model costs are suddenly rising.

Their big problem is retention of labour - why would someone work in a model train factory for a low wage when they could go down the road and work making iPads or Android phones in a cleaner, more modern factory for twice the money?

And the even bigger problem is holding onto specialist staff - the ones you've spent money training in CAD design, or toolmaking, or product and project management.  I am told it's not unusual for a skilled engineer to receive a text message offering a much higher salary, go out on his lunchbreak and not return.

For many years the Chinese factories were producing models at a price that was, really, too cheap.  That's why arguably the best one - Sanda Kan - went bust.

cheers

Ben A.

Quote from: Irish Padre on September 20, 2015, 09:11:05 AMExpensive as it may seem to us, I suspect that most of us have stock boxes that a 1960s modeller would simply gape at.

Having recently re-entered the hobby after 25 years I still see things from a 1980's OO perspective, and still gape at much of the N gauge stuff I've acquired. I'm currently constructing my layout and using some older locos to test the track as they're quite good at finding problems. Anyway one of them is a Lima 86 (which I'm quite fond of, but then I'm a bit strange ;) ) - having kind of gotten used to that, the other day I dug out a Dapol 86 and it's a world apart - like I time travelled to the future, but the future is now.

_{Do however note that while the Kato/Tomix range of popular trains are relatively cheap (albeit with limited or no DCC compatibility, which will add direct or indirect expense to anyone wanting to run them on DCC), if you want to run specific models particular to various private lines, it can get a whole lot more expensive.}



Fair point railsquid!! I did find the Hankyu and Odakyu sets quite pricy, and
I'll probably have to wait a while for a C62.....But I do find that I can acquire some fantastic rolling stock for low prices - an 8 car Seibu 101 EMU for less than £100, box vans for under £4 each....

Quote from: Ben A on September 20, 2015, 10:01:12 AM

Quote from: Webbo on September 20, 2015, 09:42:15 AM
Even though it's likely that the size of the market is a contributor to price disparity, but I suspect a couple of other reasons are that the UK market seems to operate as a duopoly with competition on prices not what it might be. Also, even online businesses need to employ people and the UK I suspect has higher labour costs due to higher minimum wages and the requirement to pay for overheads such as health, pensions, and welfare through VAT, income tax, and company tax that the US operations are less subject to. In effect, some of the extra price we pay for UK locos and rolling stock is attributable to our living in social democracies.

Webbo

Hi Webbo,

You're right about labour costs - it was to keep prices low that everyone moved their production to China in the 1990s.  Now the Chinese workers are demanding the same kind of employment conditions and living standards we enjoy their labour costs are increasing drastically, which is why model costs are suddenly rising.

Their big problem is retention of labour - why would someone work in a model train factory for a low wage when they could go down the road and work making iPads or Android phones in a cleaner, more modern factory for twice the money?

And the even bigger problem is holding onto specialist staff - the ones you've spent money training in CAD design, or toolmaking, or product and project management.  I am told it's not unusual for a skilled engineer to receive a text message offering a much higher salary, go out on his lunchbreak and not return.

For many years the Chinese factories were producing models at a price that was, really, too cheap.  That's why arguably the best one - Sanda Kan - went bust.

cheers

Ben A.

I suspect, Ben, that the money paid to the Chinese manufacturer is only a fraction of the retail cost of our locos and rolling stock and could not account for the relatively high cost of British outline compared to American. Nowadays, most US outline derives from Chinese manufacturers as well. It would be interesting to know who actually gets the money when we buy a loco or item of rolling stock.

Webbo

The money goes to the Manufacturer, Shipping, Retailer.
I dont think there is any large profit been siphoned off at any stage of the journey - As they say, the best way to get a small fortune in Model Railways is to start with a large one :D

Quote from: Webbo on September 20, 2015, 05:42:20 AM

Quote from: steve836 on September 19, 2015, 09:41:40 PM
I appreciate that a lot of work goes into producing a new wagon, and it may be that around £20 for a 4-wheel wagon like the mermaid is appropriate in those terms, but for someone who wants to run a realistic length train of around 40 wagons it comes to £800 which is a lot of money, then when you add a brake van and loco you are looking at nearly £1000 for one train.

Just like the surety of death and taxes, one day £1000 for a train will be cheap.

Webbo

That may well be true, but I for one am not likely to live long enough to see it and, in any case we are talking about now. My weekly government pension is about £165 per week which means I would have to save for 6 weeks, even if I had no other expenses and that is far from being the case.

Model wise, to put things into perspective - I've checked Farish's RRP of 371-329 Class 150/2 150247 Sprinter (weathered) which I've been waiting for a release date some time because I don't yet own a Provincial-liveried model.

On Farish's website £154.95  :o (before retailer discount)

Revolution Trains' guide price for the class 321 without sound: £160

Don't want to make it a promotion for Revolution Trains but even their guide price for a first batch run 4-car unit (subject to sufficient expressions of interest) sounds good value against a second batch run 2-car Sprinter!

Some of us have fixed incomes so price (and value) become more important factors in what we spend on hobbies and other interests.

Hi all,

Webbo - As has been said, there are the actual costs of production and shipping, then there is the profit margin for factory, UK manufacturer and retailer.  Don't forget tax aswell, which adds at least 20% into all this.

As has been said, I am not aware that anyone is making a lot of money in model railways.  People seem convinced someone, somewhere is ripping them off.  But the evidence points in the other direction: 

Retail outlets are closing down and there are barely any in prime locations such as high streets or shopping malls because margins are tight.  Their throats are, in effect, being cut by the internet and the box-shifters.  People seem to prefer to spend £95 + £4 postage on a model from Liverpool than £100 in their local shop. 

Manufacturers here are struggling to get the Chinese to produce models.  This is because their margins on our models are too tight - bigger and more profitable orders jump the queue. 

And factories in China (example previously given) have gone bust because they weren't charging enough money.

The relative cost of British to US models is a combination of vastly higher production runs (tooling and assembly line set up costs spread more thinly) and a different tax regime as already explained.

Steve:  I understand that you can't afford that £1000 train in your example; I couldn't either.  But have you considered selective compression?  For example, modern coal trains usually comprise 17-21 bogie hoppers.  I don't want to buy this many and probably wouldn't have room for them if I did.  So I run a coal train of 12-14 hoppers which still looks impressive, but costs less and uses less space.  It isn't exactly prototypical but I'd rather run an approximation and add a little imagination than run no coal train at all.

cheers

Ben A.

Quote from: Ben A on September 20, 2015, 11:46:32 AM
Hi all,

W
Steve:  I understand that you can't afford that £1000 train in your example; I couldn't either.  But have you considered selective compression?  For example, modern coal trains usually comprise 17-21 bogie hoppers.  I don't want to buy this many and probably wouldn't have room for them if I did.  So I run a coal train of 12-14 hoppers which still looks impressive, but costs less and uses less space.  It isn't exactly prototypical but I'd rather run an approximation and add a little imagination than run no coal train at all.

cheers

Ben A.

A garret or 9f would haul 90 wagons so a train of 40 is already compressed

Hi Steve,

I have no idea how many 4-wheel wagons a steam loco could haul, I was just considering your OP which stated that 40 wagons was, for you, realistic.

You may decide 20 wagons is so unrealistic as to be not worth bothering with - fair enough. All I'm saying is that for most of us there will be a balance between what's affordable and what's acceptable if we "truncate realism!"

cheers

Ben A.

Quote from: steve836 on September 20, 2015, 12:34:11 PM
9f would haul 90 wagons so a train of 40 is already compressed

Hardly; the 9Fs based @ Tyne Dock pulled 8 (later 9) wagons ... so a small number like this is quite prototypical ...

Quote from: Ben A on September 20, 2015, 11:46:32 AM
Their throats are, in effect, being cut by the internet and the box-shifters.  People seem to prefer to spend £95 + £4 postage on a model from Liverpool than £100 in their local shop.

Ben, while you make a valid point, I think you oversimplify why Hattons, Rails and MRD are so successful whereas the small, "local", shops aren't.

The big box shifters aren't just some few percent cheaper (we'll quibble over how much another time) but also able to offer a much wider range of current models. So one factor between choosing to mail order from Hattons via visiting a local model shop is that the model you want is much more likely to be available and in your hands within a day or two. They're also able to offer periodic bargains and sales, which may not make a lot of money, but can encourage other purchases, and even small profits are better than no profit at all, especially when stock is sitting on a shelf going out of fashion and potentially losing value. It may well be small stores offer bargains and sales too, but if they don't advertise online, few people will know about them.

I think we also do the likes of Hattons a disservice by painting them as somehow the villains of the piece. My two local shops are Transport Treasures and Junction 20 Models. One has a rudimentary website, while the other doesn't have a website at all. Both clearly view the Internet as a threat, not an opportunity, and neither makes any effort to attract me to visit them in the near future. Transport Treasures is actually pretty good if you're a 00 modeller given its size, and even though it doesn't have a lot of N, there are enough kits and track pieces to get you started. I simply have no idea how Junction 20 Models works! The guy who works there is nice enough and apparently does 00 repairs on a regular basis, and the turnover of used 00 also seems to be substantial, but even so, it's always very quiet whenever I've visited. Regardless, because neither has a website, visiting them is a lottery that on previous experience has usually been a wasted trip. That uncertainty is a disincentive for me to visit again.

It is possible for small shops to thrive. But I think justing sitting on the High Street and waiting for customers to turn up is unrealistic. Whether it's regular appearances at hobby exhibitions, internet sales, exclusive models, or specialising in things like wagon kits or scenics, these small stores really do need a unique selling point if they're going to make a profit. The fact that so many fail to be ambitious is not the fault of those stores like Hattons that were ambitious and took advantage of the internet -- and let's not forget Hattons, Rails and MRD were small, local, family-owned stores at one time! (May still be, for all I know.)

Cheers, NeMo

Hattons was pretty big even before the internet - by the time my pocket money (or paper round money) had expanded enough to buy more than the occasional wagon or coach, my local model shop (actually a bizarre model shop/photo studio combination) had vanished and for any major purchases I had to travel into Birmingham where there was a Beatties located directly above the station, or pop a cheque in an envelope to one of the full-page advertisers in Railway Modeller who managed to pack most of their inventory in small print into A4 size. For whatever reason I settled on Hattons and was pleased to rediscover them recently (though in my defence the only model shop in Japan specializing in British trains deals mainly in Orribly Oversized, and after chatting with the proprietor it turns out they source most of their stuff from Liverpool...).

Quote from: MikeDunn on September 20, 2015, 02:54:00 PM

Quote from: steve836 on September 20, 2015, 12:34:11 PM
9f would haul 90 wagons so a train of 40 is already compressed

Hardly; the 9Fs based @ Tyne Dock pulled 8 (later 9) wagons ... so a small number like this is quite prototypical ...

Not really relevant to Steve's argument, Mike, as you are quoting the Consett ore trains where the wagons carried vastly greater tonnage than the wagons Steve is referring to thereby reducing, of necessity, the number of wagons in the train.

Yes - depends on your prototype. I'm modelling the rooftop line. An 8F was allowed 42 wagons beyond Rowsley before a banker was needed so more would be normal between Ambergate and there. I think the limit beyond Rowsley was 60 for a 9F or Garrett. Banking was the norm from Rowsley to Millers Dale which would indicate that train lengths were in excess of these numbers.

Re loco costs - I am not involved in the industry but I would expect that repaying the investment in tooling is a significant part of the cost of a loco. Tooling costs for a new loco will probably be in the hundreds of thousands. So sales volumes will have quite a big effect on price.

Re wagon costs - I don't think trains have to be scale length to look right. For instance a 7 or 8 coach train problaly looks more the part on most layouts than a proper length 11 coach train. I find a 20 wagon freight train looks ok.

I recently wanted a clay train of about 20 wagons. Whilst the Kernow clay wagons were tempting I decided against this route purely on cost. 20 peco 5 plank wagons were kits purchased from Hattons at £3.00 each. I painted and assembled them and then used thin cloth, painted black then thin white to represent clay dust, to make tarpaulin covers. So I have a nice long goods train for just over £70 including the brake van. And because I made them myself they are unique and give me more pleasure. You don't always have to spend a fortune.

As I started this thread, I thought it about time I made another contributory post about the subject matter.

It's been interesting reading all the replies and different opinons, didn't think there would be so many.

I started in N gauge in Tenerife in August 2013 when I bought a load of track from Dutfields "cabin" in Chemsford whilst I was visiting my daughter who lives there. My 1st 2 locos were birthday/Xmas presents that year from my son who purchased them from ModelZone in Chester in a Sale just before they went Bankrupt.

In total in 2013 I spent £1,490 on my new hobby (mainly on a Morley Controller & rolling stock and scenic items from Hattons). In 2014 spending rose to £2,807 (mostly on-line mail order items - but VAT Free).

This year to-date I have spent £1,052, and now have about 30 locos in all (steam & diesel).

To put this last figure into perspective below is a Graph of all our recurring 2015 expenditure costs to the end of August, which excludes "property" costs (eg. rates, water, electric, maintenance etc.) and credit card payments which I use mainly just for model railway purchases.

The bulk of the "Leisure" cost shown below is going out for meals (which we do a lot) or any other entertainment, including drinks at the Bar, and the "Personal" cost figure covers such things as Dental & Medical Insurance, clothes and other purchases etc.

Note these costs are all in Euros whereas model railway costs are in £s Sterling.

(http://i379.photobucket.com/albums/oo231/Tdmak/Sundry%20and%20Miscellaneous/Recurring%20Expend%20Graph.jpg) (http://s379.photobucket.com/user/Tdmak/media/Sundry%20and%20Miscellaneous/Recurring%20Expend%20Graph.jpg.html)

Quote from: Chris m on September 20, 2015, 08:07:53 PM

Re wagon costs - I don't think trains have to be scale length to look right. For instance a 7 or 8 coach train problaly looks more the part on most layouts than a proper length 11 coach train. I find a 20 wagon freight train looks ok.

Just from curiosity how many of us have a long enough layout for more anyway?
Taking British prototype, and Mk1 or 2 coaches: 11 coaches, plus main line loco, in N = around 6 feet while a '60 for length' (based on SWB wagons) freight train would be around double that.
To look good therefore a layout would have to be at least double the length of the train (in my opinion, otherwise it looks cramped) and how many of us have runs of 24 feet (at least) on the scenic parts of the baseboard?
And if we go to genuine prototype lengths for todays freightliner or stone trains then you are going to '100 for length' or around 20 (real) feet for the train alone.
So yes, I'm with you Chris, 7 to 8 coaches or 20 - 25 SWB wagons looks about right in my view.

Quote from: D1042 Western Princess on September 21, 2015, 01:39:39 AM

Quote from: Chris m on September 20, 2015, 08:07:53 PM

Re wagon costs - I don't think trains have to be scale length to look right. For instance a 7 or 8 coach train problaly looks more the part on most layouts than a proper length 11 coach train. I find a 20 wagon freight train looks ok.

Just from curiosity how many of us have a long enough layout for more anyway?
Taking British prototype, and Mk1 or 2 coaches: 11 coaches, plus main line loco, in N = around 6 feet while a '60 for length' (based on SWB wagons) freight train would be around double that.
To look good therefore a layout would have to be at least double the length of the train (in my opinion, otherwise it looks cramped) and how many of us have runs of 24 feet (at least) on the scenic parts of the baseboard?
And if we go to genuine prototype lengths for todays freightliner or stone trains then you are going to '100 for length' or around 20 (real) feet for the train alone.
So yes, I'm with you Chris, 7 to 8 coaches or 20 - 25 SWB wagons looks about right in my view.

As the longest run I have is 3 metres (ca. 10 feet), I decided long ago to standardize on 3/4 coach rakes (or the equivalent in wagons). Not everyone's cup of tea maybe but has the added benefit of enabling me to acquire a wider variety of rakes without costing toooo much.

I have just thought of a simple way of reducing my spend on the hobby, I will ban myself from Ebay, Models shops, Exhibitions, Swapmeets (do these still exist?), and model magazines, and rely upon loved ones to maybe provide additions to my stock through lovingly bought presents.

Err hang on if previous experience is anything to go on, I will just get a load of "lynx" smelly sets, yes other brands of spray Cat :censored: is available.............I guess that means I better take up another hobby like knitting of crochet.................. :help: :help: :help: :help: :help: :help: :help: :help: :help: :help: :help:

Yeah those Lynx products haven't got the same cardboard boxes that Brut have. I've had a discussion on here before about how Brut boxes provide excellent scratch building material.  :D

Quote from: Bealman on September 21, 2015, 07:37:29 AM
Yeah those Lynx products haven't got the same cardboard boxes that Brut have. I've had a discussion on here before about how Brut boxes provide excellent scratch building material.  :D

Brut, that was something my Grandfather used, being a young and trendy chap I had to google it to see what it actually was, apparently you can still see it in museums, and I also found out that TV's were black and white  :sorrysign:

Quote from: paulprice on September 21, 2015, 07:30:16 AM
I have just thought of a simple way of reducing my spend on the hobby, I will ban myself from Ebay, Models shops, Exhibitions, Swapmeets (do these still exist?), and model magazines, and rely upon loved ones to maybe provide additions to my stock through lovingly bought presents.

Err hang on if previous experience is anything to go on, I will just get a load of "lynx" smelly sets, yes other brands of spray Cat :censored: is available.............I guess that means I better take up another hobby like knitting of crochet.................. :help: :help: :help: :help: :help: :help: :help: :help: :help: :help: :help:

I just give people the my hattons wish list. This has worked very well but I have now run out of socks!

Quote from: Chris m on September 21, 2015, 07:57:42 AM

Quote from: paulprice on September 21, 2015, 07:30:16 AM
I have just thought of a simple way of reducing my spend on the hobby, I will ban myself from Ebay, Models shops, Exhibitions, Swapmeets (do these still exist?), and model magazines, and rely upon loved ones to maybe provide additions to my stock through lovingly bought presents.

Err hang on if previous experience is anything to go on, I will just get a load of "lynx" smelly sets, yes other brands of spray Cat :censored: is available.............I guess that means I better take up another hobby like knitting of crochet.................. :help: :help: :help: :help: :help: :help: :help: :help: :help: :help: :help:

I just give people the my hattons wish list. This has worked very well but I have now run out of socks!

Did the list include 6 Dapol Class 27s (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=29644.0)?

Quote from: paulprice on September 21, 2015, 07:30:16 AM
I have just thought of a simple way of reducing my spend on the hobby, I will ban myself from Ebay, Models shops, Exhibitions, Swapmeets (do these still exist?), and model magazines, and rely upon loved ones to maybe provide additions to my stock through lovingly bought presents.

Err hang on if previous experience is anything to go on, I will just get a load of "lynx" smelly sets, yes other brands of spray Cat :censored: is available.............I guess that means I better take up another hobby like knitting of crochet.................. :help: :help: :help: :help: :help: :help: :help: :help: :help: :help: :help:

:laughabovepost:

Or, as happened to me once - a much loved aunt (now long deceased) got me 'a new engine for my train set'.
An LMS liveried OO sized Hornby Jinty. I'd just gone into N, BR blue all diesel  ::) .... but, oh well,  they do say it's the thought that counts.
Counting on relatives to 'get it right' doesn't always work, Paul.

Quote from: D1042 Western Princess on September 21, 2015, 08:37:11 AM

Quote from: paulprice on September 21, 2015, 07:30:16 AM
I have just thought of a simple way of reducing my spend on the hobby, I will ban myself from Ebay, Models shops, Exhibitions, Swapmeets (do these still exist?), and model magazines, and rely upon loved ones to maybe provide additions to my stock through lovingly bought presents.

Err hang on if previous experience is anything to go on, I will just get a load of "lynx" smelly sets, yes other brands of spray Cat :censored: is available.............I guess that means I better take up another hobby like knitting of crochet.................. :help: :help: :help: :help: :help: :help: :help: :help: :help: :help: :help:

:laughabovepost:



Or, as happened to me once - a much loved aunt (now long deceased) got me 'a new engine for my train set'.
An LMS liveried OO sized Hornby Jinty. I'd just gone into N, BR blue all diesel  ::) .... but, oh well,  they do say it's the thought that counts.
Counting on relatives to 'get it right' doesn't always work, Paul.

Yes, relatives are not a reliable source. Of my four adult children only my eldest girl can be relied on to choose something I want (despite giving out a wish list) and I suspect that's because she is into dolls houses and understands that you want things that fit what you are modelling. The other three seldom get me a present I really want, one tries and usually gets me something like a steam-train ride or similar, one gives cash (always useful) the other usually gets something for SWMBO and calls it a joint present (cant quite see how that's supposed to work).

I think one of the big advantages of model railways as a hobby is that there needn't be any ongoing expenditure.

Yes, you can spend thousands on long rakes of the latest wagons, and the entire class 66 fleet by CJM, but equally you can draw a line under things at any time and have minimal expenditure thereafter.

If I think about my other hobby - cycling - there is a pretty substantial ongoing outlay required to keep participating. This is directly proportional to the amount you spend in the first place too (and puts it vaguely in line with cars). Whilst that CJM fleet can be an 'indulgent' purchase with no further investment required, the spares needed to keep a £10,000 push bike running are vastly more expensive, and no less frequently needed than on a £500 bike.

That's not to mention entry fees, food, petrol, hotel expenses etc etc.

I've just had a brainwave, and they say I'm an idiot.........if we all adopt a modeller from here, we can all buy each other something useful and train related for Birthdays and Christmas and then the problem will be sorted.

That way when the evil Domestic Overlords comment of the purchase of trains, we can say it not for me its for NOBBO its his birthday.........YES I AM A GENIUS, now in the next five minutes I reckon I can fix the worlds economic crisis.......

Quote from: njee20 on September 21, 2015, 10:04:15 AM
I think one of the big advantages of model railways as a hobby is that there needn't be any ongoing expenditure.

Yes, you can spend thousands on long rakes of the latest wagons, and the entire class 66 fleet by CJM, but equally you can draw a line under things at any time and have minimal expenditure thereafter.

If I think about my other hobby - cycling - there is a pretty substantial ongoing outlay required to keep participating. This is directly proportional to the amount you spend in the first place too (and puts it vaguely in line with cars). Whilst that CJM fleet can be an 'indulgent' purchase with no further investment required, the spares needed to keep a £10,000 push bike running are vastly more expensive, and no less frequently needed than on a £500 bike.

That's not to mention entry fees, food, petrol, hotel expenses etc etc.

I have yet to meet a model railroader who stops buying locos and rolling stock after he/she has acquired what is 'needed'. This behaviour assumes a level of rationality and personal control which I believe is beyond most of us.

However, I do agree that following model railways can be relatively cheap compared to some other hobbies or pursuits.

As an alternative to Paul's suggested strategy, when my wife remarks on the arrival of parcels, I remind her of my desire to buy a motorcycle.

Webbo 

I've trained my lot to give me vouchers for my favourite box shifter which helps hugely with my pre orders and also avoids getting pressies which are hopelessly 'wrong'. Let's face it, unless you're a railway buff no one understands eras/liveries/locations :no:

Quote from: paulprice on September 21, 2015, 10:11:54 AM
I've just had a brainwave, and they say I'm an idiot.........if we all adopt a modeller from here, we can all buy each other something useful and train related for Birthdays and Christmas and then the problem will be sorted.

That way when the evil Domestic Overlords comment of the purchase of trains, we can say it not for me its for NOBBO its his birthday.........YES I AM A GENIUS, now in the next five minutes I reckon I can fix the worlds economic crisis.......

  :claphappy: Brilliant - you are a genius ....  :thumbsup:  :beers:

  :hmmm: Just one tiny fly in the ointment, so far as I can see.

4000+ members...let's say 2000 sign up to this plan and all think " :doh: I know, 'Member X', he's into Outer Mongolian Victorian narrow gauge railways so I'll get him a kit of one of their 'Genghis Khan' 6-2-6 express goods engines"  :D and member X has a 4'x1' shunting plank layout! :-[ ::)

Oh well, it's the thought what counts they say; back to the drawing board!  :wave: 

Quote from: Webbo on September 21, 2015, 10:27:09 AM

I have yet to meet a model railroader who stops buying locos and rolling stock after he/she has acquired what is 'needed'. This behaviour assumes a level of rationality and personal control which I believe is beyond most of us.

Webbo

A long time ago I started a thread trying to determine just how many people go on buying locos and stock long after they have more than they need to run their layouts or can comfortably fit on their layouts (basically the point you are making),  but it just turned into lists of what people owned (not the point I was trying to get at) so the thread was abandoned.

Quote from: D1042 Western Princess on September 21, 2015, 10:37:27 AM

Quote from: paulprice on September 21, 2015, 10:11:54 AM
I've just had a brainwave, and they say I'm an idiot.........if we all adopt a modeller from here, we can all buy each other something useful and train related for Birthdays and Christmas and then the problem will be sorted.

That way when the evil Domestic Overlords comment of the purchase of trains, we can say it not for me its for NOBBO its his birthday.........YES I AM A GENIUS, now in the next five minutes I reckon I can fix the worlds economic crisis.......

  :claphappy: Brilliant - you are a genius ....  :thumbsup:  :beers:

  :hmmm: Just one tiny fly in the ointment, so far as I can see.

4000+ members...let's say 2000 sign up to this plan and all think " :doh: I know, 'Member X', he's into Outer Mongolian Victorian narrow gauge railways so I'll get him a kit of one of their 'Genghis Khan' 6-2-6 express goods engines"  :D and member X has a 4'x1' shunting plank layout! :-[ ::)

Oh well, it's the thought what counts they say; back to the drawing board!  :wave:

HA I have already thought of that we force people into admitting their mistakes in modelling inferior railways and insist everyone models LMS, after all we all know its the only proper company...... :goggleeyes:

QuoteI have yet to meet a model railroader who stops buying locos and rolling stock after he/she has acquired what is 'needed'. This behaviour assumes a level of rationality and personal control which I believe is beyond most of us.

Obviously, we're all guilty of that, but you could and still enjoy the hobby (almost) as much, in a way you couldn't with (for example) cycling, which was my point.

Quote from: steve836 on September 21, 2015, 09:37:33 AM
Yes, relatives are not a reliable source. Of my four adult children only my eldest girl can be relied on to choose something I want (despite giving out a wish list) and I suspect that's because she is into dolls houses and understands that you want things that fit what you are modelling. The other three seldom get me a present I really want, one tries and usually gets me something like a steam-train ride or similar, one gives cash (always useful) the other usually gets something for SWMBO and calls it a joint present (cant quite see how that's supposed to work).

Mrs. Railsquid, who luckily suffers from a rare form of cognitive impairment which means she is unable to distinguish more than a dozen trains in her field of vision (at least that's my theory, once they reached double digits she kind of gave up), has kindly placed herself in charge of road vehicle acquisition.

Quote from: D1042 Western Princess link=topic=29657.msg333819#msg
333819 date=1442828247

Quote from: paulprice on September 21, 2015, 10:11:54 AM
I've just had a brainwave, and they say I'm an idiot.........if we all adopt a modeller from here,

That way when the evil Domestic Overlords comment of the purchase of trains,

  :claphappy: Brilliant - you are a genius ....  :thumbsup:  :beers:

A Machiavellian one even :)  :thumbsup:

There must be something wrong with me (quiet in the back row there )
I got 2 x 4F, a J39, an assortment of wagons and 4 coaches at the beginning of the year, non since; more than adequate for my ex-LMS/LNER ovals and shunting yard.
So I need help !
What's a fella to do when the Domestic Overlady wants you to go buy one or two of those " Nice GWR locos " ???

Quote from: paulprice on September 21, 2015, 10:11:54 AM
we can say it not for me its for NOBBO its his birthday

It's Nobby, not Nobbo, and he can buy his own  :censored: trains !!!  :thumbsdown:

I have no doubt he'd love 4500+ of us sending him stuff, but ... !!!

Quote from: MikeDunn on September 21, 2015, 03:36:52 PM

Quote from: paulprice on September 21, 2015, 10:11:54 AM
we can say it not for me its for NOBBO its his birthday

It's Nobby, not Nobbo, and he can buy his own  :censored: trains !!!  :thumbsdown:

I have no doubt he'd love 4500+ of us sending him stuff, but ... !!!

We could send him a kit containing 4500 parts. Each part wrapped individually.

Quote from: MikeDunn on September 21, 2015, 03:36:52 PM

Quote from: paulprice on September 21, 2015, 10:11:54 AM
we can say it not for me its for NOBBO its his birthday

It's Nobby, not Nobbo, and he can buy his own  :censored: trains !!!  :thumbsdown:

I have no doubt he'd love 4500+ of us sending him stuff, but ... !!!

Any donations gratefully accepted (providing they are found suitable for location/era) :D :thankyousign:

I have three vices, a car, Whisky and model railways.

The car is a Ferrari Dino, a family heirloom, which passes to the youngest son for some strange reason, I can't afford to run it, I can't sell it, and insuring it even for a couple of weeks when that big orange ball may make an appearance is too expensive on a Postmans wages. So its cost are low, a bit of a wash and wax two three times a year, and I give it a run around the farmyard on my birthday.

Whisky I drink, and I don't mean the cheap stuff from the offie, I much prefer a single malt the older the better, I get given bottles for birthdays and the like, I also have a son who travels a lot, and has too much money to spend, so he often brings me home a bottle.

Model railways are my biggest vice, as I said being a postman it has to have a budget, and it's all bought through a credit card, if I go on a spree, I can't go on another one until the first is paid off. SWMBO has her own card, and uses that in much the same way.

Holidays are paid for 50/50, travel agents are we have found OK about splitting costs across two cards.

I think given the detail we now get on models compared to the seventies and earlier, they are extremely good value for money, you can get a DCC 67 class pannier by Dapol for well under £100 from Hattons, and the new manor with DCC is a shade over £120, the same goes for rolling stock.

Where I do think we get ripped off a little is on the accessory side of things, like Ratio fencing costing over £4, when it's a bit of not very well injection moulded plastic that a machine spits out by the thousands.  Some of the things like the platform accessories by PECO are just unjustifiably expensive for what they are.

Quote from: paulprice on September 21, 2015, 10:47:37 AM

Quote from: D1042 Western Princess on September 21, 2015, 10:37:27 AM

Quote from: paulprice on September 21, 2015, 10:11:54 AM
I've just had a brainwave, and they say I'm an idiot.........if we all adopt a modeller from here, we can all buy each other something useful and train related for Birthdays and Christmas and then the problem will be sorted.

That way when the evil Domestic Overlords comment of the purchase of trains, we can say it not for me its for NOBBO its his birthday.........YES I AM A GENIUS, now in the next five minutes I reckon I can fix the worlds economic crisis.......

  :claphappy: Brilliant - you are a genius ....  :thumbsup:  :beers:

  :hmmm: Just one tiny fly in the ointment, so far as I can see.

4000+ members...let's say 2000 sign up to this plan and all think " :doh: I know, 'Member X', he's into Outer Mongolian Victorian narrow gauge railways so I'll get him a kit of one of their 'Genghis Khan' 6-2-6 express goods engines"  :D and member X has a 4'x1' shunting plank layout! :-[ ::)

Oh well, it's the thought what counts they say; back to the drawing board!  :wave:

HA I have already thought of that we force people into admitting their mistakes in modelling inferior railways and insist everyone models LMS, after all we all know its the only proper company...... :goggleeyes:

The LMS..... :confused1:  wasn't that a minor company which ran trains to Glasgow from London some time back in the 1930s??  ;)

Actually, my granddad was a goods guard at Coventry before moving to the goods yard at Kenilworth to be closer to home after my grandmother was taken seriously ill.

But I still model Western Region - because it's simply the best!

Quote from: D1042 Western Princess on September 21, 2015, 11:54:55 PM

Quote from: paulprice on September 21, 2015, 10:47:37 AM

Quote from: D1042 Western Princess on September 21, 2015, 10:37:27 AM

Quote from: paulprice on September 21, 2015, 10:11:54 AM
I've just had a brainwave, and they say I'm an idiot.........if we all adopt a modeller from here, we can all buy each other something useful and train related for Birthdays and Christmas and then the problem will be sorted.

That way when the evil Domestic Overlords comment of the purchase of trains, we can say it not for me its for NOBBO its his birthday.........YES I AM A GENIUS, now in the next five minutes I reckon I can fix the worlds economic crisis.......

  :claphappy: Brilliant - you are a genius ....  :thumbsup:  :beers:

  :hmmm: Just one tiny fly in the ointment, so far as I can see.

4000+ members...let's say 2000 sign up to this plan and all think " :doh: I know, 'Member X', he's into Outer Mongolian Victorian narrow gauge railways so I'll get him a kit of one of their 'Genghis Khan' 6-2-6 express goods engines"  :D and member X has a 4'x1' shunting plank layout! :-[ ::)

Oh well, it's the thought what counts they say; back to the drawing board!  :wave:

HA I have already thought of that we force people into admitting their mistakes in modelling inferior railways and insist everyone models LMS, after all we all know its the only proper company...... :goggleeyes:

The LMS..... :confused1:  wasn't that a minor company which ran trains to Glasgow from London some time back in the 1930s??  ;)

Actually, my granddad was a goods guard at Coventry before moving to the goods yard at Kenilworth to be closer to home after my grandmother was taken seriously ill.

But I still model Western Region - because it's simply the best!

You pool deluded fool  :P (don't tell anyone but my stock includes 6 or so castles amongst other things, but I blame the concussion)

Quote from: paulprice on September 22, 2015, 07:21:46 AM

You pool deluded fool  :P (don't tell anyone but my stock includes 6 or so castles amongst other things, but I blame the concussion)

Don't worry - I won't say a word about you being an LMS fan but running GWR locomotives........... :zippedmouth:   :no:

:D

Quote from: D1042 Western Princess on September 22, 2015, 07:56:38 AM

Quote from: paulprice on September 22, 2015, 07:21:46 AM

You pool deluded fool  :P (don't tell anyone but my stock includes 6 or so castles amongst other things, but I blame the concussion)

Don't worry - I won't say a word about you being an LMS fan but running GWR locomotives........... :zippedmouth:   :no:

:D

LMS & LNER are great but don't touch anything else! You should get enough on fleabay from that Western rubbish to buy some decent locos!! :P

Quote from: steve836 on September 22, 2015, 09:27:22 AM
LMS & LNER are great but don't touch anything else! You should get enough on fleabay from that Western rubbish to buy some decent locos!! :P

Can we limit LMS to Princess Elizabeth only  ::)  Otherwise I fully agree  :thumbsup:

Quote from: MikeDunn on September 22, 2015, 09:31:29 AM

Quote from: steve836 on September 22, 2015, 09:27:22 AM
LMS & LNER are great but don't touch anything else! You should get enough on fleabay from that Western rubbish to buy some decent locos!! :P

Can we limit LMS to Princess Elizabeth only  ::)  Otherwise I fully agree  :thumbsup:

Would that be the same "Princess Elizabeth" Class which was designed by William Stanier, a man who learned his trade in SWINDON?

Quote from: D1042 Western Princess on September 22, 2015, 09:47:48 AM

Quote from: MikeDunn on September 22, 2015, 09:31:29 AM

Quote from: steve836 on September 22, 2015, 09:27:22 AM
LMS & LNER are great but don't touch anything else! You should get enough on fleabay from that Western rubbish to buy some decent locos!! :P

Can we limit LMS to Princess Elizabeth only  ::)  Otherwise I fully agree  :thumbsup:

Would that be the same "Princess Elizabeth" Class which was designed by William Stanier, a man who learned his trade in SWINDON?

Yes he went there to learn how not to build locos :P

Quote from: Graham Walters on September 21, 2015, 11:32:48 PM
I have three vices, a car, Whisky and model railways.

The car is a Ferrari Dino, a family heirloom, which passes to the youngest son for some strange reason, I can't afford to run it, I can't sell it, and insuring it even for a couple of weeks when that big orange ball may make an appearance is too expensive on a Postmans wages. So its cost are low, a bit of a wash and wax two three times a year, and I give it a run around the farmyard on my birthday.

Being a Classic Car enthusiast I would like to see a picture of your Dino as they were a lovely looking model and the last one I saw was here in Tenerife at a Classic Car Show.

After I retired as an I.T. Manager I took on a retirement job as a Rural Postman between 1999 and 2004, and in those days there was a "2nd Delivery" round which you could do either walking, on a Bike, or in your own car, and I used my Triumph Stag when it was my turn to do second delivery which raised a few eyebrows from the mail recipients I delivered to.!

Like you I too like Whisky - either Grouse and Soda or Dry Ginger, or in the case of a single Malt - Isle of Jura.

Quote from: Tdm on September 22, 2015, 10:02:37 AM

Quote from: Graham Walters on September 21, 2015, 11:32:48 PM
I have three vices, a car, Whisky and model railways.

The car is a Ferrari Dino, a family heirloom, which passes to the youngest son for some strange reason, I can't afford to run it, I can't sell it, and insuring it even for a couple of weeks when that big orange ball may make an appearance is too expensive on a Postmans wages. So its cost are low, a bit of a wash and wax two three times a year, and I give it a run around the farmyard on my birthday.

Being a Classic Car enthusiast I would like to see a picture of your Dino as they were a lovely looking model and the last one I saw was here in Tenerife at a Classic Car Show.

After I retired as an I.T. Manager I took on a retirement job as a Rural Postman between 1999 and 2004, and in those days there was a "2nd Delivery" round which you could do either walking, on a Bike, or in your own car, and I used my Triumph Stag when it was my turn to do second delivery which raised a few eyebrows from the mail recipients I delivered to.!

Like you I too like Whisky - either Grouse and Soda or Dry Ginger, or in the case of a single Malt - Isle of Jura.

I'll try and dig some pics out, I haven't got any digital wise, so it may take me a while.
The Dino I have is all Ferrari, a lot of them that were made had Maserati engines will a Ferrari cover, I have checked the engine no against Ferrari records and it's genuine. Mine is also yellow, the true Ferarri yellow, again most think Ferraris should be red, but Dino's colour choice for his was yellow.

Grouse is a blended whisky, made from the ends of barrels from a lot of the small distillery's and from their own, they actually use caramel to get a consistent colour in the blend.
I get a fir bit of mine from the Blannoch distillery, the southern most in Scotland, they do a 16yr old with the fats still in it, it's a lovely tipple.
Jura is a good malt, but can be a pit too peaty for me.

Quote from: Graham Walters on September 22, 2015, 10:30:58 AM
I'll try and dig some pics out, I haven't got any digital wise, so it may take me a while.
The Dino I have is all Ferrari, a lot of them that were made had Maserati engines will a Ferrari cover, I have checked the engine no against Ferrari records and it's genuine. Mine is also yellow, the true Ferarri yellow, again most think Ferraris should be red, but Dino's colour choice for his was yellow.

Does it look like this?

(http://i379.photobucket.com/albums/oo231/Tdmak/Car%20Photos/Dino.jpg) (http://s379.photobucket.com/user/Tdmak/media/Car%20Photos/Dino.jpg.html)

Quote from: steve836 on September 22, 2015, 10:00:32 AM

Quote from: D1042 Western Princess on September 22, 2015, 09:47:48 AM

Quote from: MikeDunn on September 22, 2015, 09:31:29 AM

Quote from: steve836 on September 22, 2015, 09:27:22 AM
LMS & LNER are great but don't touch anything else! You should get enough on fleabay from that Western rubbish to buy some decent locos!! :P

Can we limit LMS to Princess Elizabeth only  ::)  Otherwise I fully agree  :thumbsup:

Would that be the same "Princess Elizabeth" Class which was designed by William Stanier, a man who learned his trade in SWINDON?

Yes he went there to learn how not to build locos :P

No Comment..... EXCEPT  :censored: :censored: :censored: :censored:

:)

Quote from: D1042 Western Princess on September 22, 2015, 06:02:16 PM

Quote from: steve836 on September 22, 2015, 10:00:32 AM

Quote from: D1042 Western Princess on September 22, 2015, 09:47:48 AM

Quote from: MikeDunn on September 22, 2015, 09:31:29 AM

Quote from: steve836 on September 22, 2015, 09:27:22 AM
LMS & LNER are great but don't touch anything else! You should get enough on fleabay from that Western rubbish to buy some decent locos!! :P

Can we limit LMS to Princess Elizabeth only  ::)  Otherwise I fully agree  :thumbsup:

Would that be the same "Princess Elizabeth" Class which was designed by William Stanier, a man who learned his trade in SWINDON?

Yes he went there to learn how not to build locos :P

No Comment..... EXCEPT  :censored: :censored: :censored: :censored:

:)

LNER locos - weren't they the ones that kept breaking their middle big ends until GWR methods of construction were introduced after nationalisation?

Quote from: Chris m on September 22, 2015, 10:40:57 PM

Quote from: D1042 Western Princess on September 22, 2015, 06:02:16 PM

Quote from: steve836 on September 22, 2015, 10:00:32 AM

Quote from: D1042 Western Princess on September 22, 2015, 09:47:48 AM

Quote from: MikeDunn on September 22, 2015, 09:31:29 AM

Quote from: steve836 on September 22, 2015, 09:27:22 AM
LMS & LNER are great but don't touch anything else! You should get enough on fleabay from that Western rubbish to buy some decent locos!! :P

Can we limit LMS to Princess Elizabeth only  ::)  Otherwise I fully agree  :thumbsup:

Would that be the same "Princess Elizabeth" Class which was designed by William Stanier, a man who learned his trade in SWINDON?

Yes he went there to learn how not to build locos :P

No Comment..... EXCEPT  :censored: :censored: :censored: :censored:

:)

LNER locos - weren't they the ones that kept breaking their middle big ends until GWR methods of construction were introduced after nationalisation?

Correct Chris, and LMS were the ones who needed a GWR trained man to show them how to build a decent engine.
Stanier's name is still regarded as one down from Quisling in some houses in Swindon and, only a few years ago, I made the mistake of daring to mention the 'S word' in the home of a former GWR man. I was asked to leave.
The fact that the GWR man was FW Hawksworth probably didn't help!  :-[

Quote from: Tdm on September 22, 2015, 10:42:13 AM

Quote from: Graham Walters on September 22, 2015, 10:30:58 AM
I'll try and dig some pics out, I haven't got any digital wise, so it may take me a while.
The Dino I have is all Ferrari, a lot of them that were made had Maserati engines will a Ferrari cover, I have checked the engine no against Ferrari records and it's genuine. Mine is also yellow, the true Ferarri yellow, again most think Ferraris should be red, but Dino's colour choice for his was yellow.

Does it look like this?

(http://i379.photobucket.com/albums/oo231/Tdmak/Car%20Photos/Dino.jpg) (http://s379.photobucket.com/user/Tdmak/media/Car%20Photos/Dino.jpg.html)

That'll be the one. although mine looks a bit duller after spending a lot of it's life under dust covers

Getting back to costs, tonight I have just come back from a club meeting where I have had to put preliminary costs to the committee for the proposed exhibition N gauge layout.
Before I gave them the figures I warned them that these were estimates, and that they were more likely to rise than fall.

A few whistles went around the room when the broken down costs came to a total of £1500, and that is without taking scenery into account.

The biggest expense is of course the rolling stock, closely followed by all the DCC gear that will be needed.

Hi Graham,

That's interesting.  Our club has a pretty diverse mix of interests, though being an NGS area group we at least all model the same scale.

So when we build a layout, while the club springs for wood and track, we all tend to pitch in with scenic odds and ends, and depending on the area/era depicted different members will contribute complete (usually appropriate) trains to run - certainly the club never buys any rolling stock to my knowledge.

What happens to your club's rolling stock down the line? Is it kept in a secure location, or loaned out to members?

cheers

Ben A.

Quote from: Ben A on September 23, 2015, 10:45:50 PM

Hi Graham,

That's interesting.  Our club has a pretty diverse mix of interests, though being an NGS area group we at least all model the same scale.

So when we build a layout, while the club springs for wood and track, we all tend to pitch in with scenic odds and ends, and depending on the area/era depicted different members will contribute complete (usually appropriate) trains to run - certainly the club never buys any rolling stock to my knowledge.

What happens to your club's rolling stock down the line? Is it kept in a secure location, or loaned out to members?

cheers

Ben A.

It's very rare that the club actually buys any rolling stock, but an exception has to be made in this instance because the layout is being planned for DCC, and as far as I know I am the only one with any N gauge DCC stock.  My job means that I am only available 1 weekend out of six, and I am reluctant ( naturally) to let my stock out of my sight, so the club will need to buy stock.

The club runs a very healthy second hand market for stock by buying up layouts, stock in all gauges and scenics, so the stock would be sold off at our annual show.

I'm hoping that a lot of the scenics will be scratch built, but so far I am the only one who has shown any enthusiasm for this route, myself I feel that a club layout should show people what the club is capable of building, rather than what it is capable of buying.

Quote from: NeMo on September 19, 2015, 10:01:49 AM

Quote from: Webbo on September 19, 2015, 09:34:16 AM
Say the locos are worth $100 each to buy new

But they're not. British outline N-gauge locos are nearer the £100 mark ($216 Australian) and increasingly over that price.

If British N-gauge locos were $100 Australian, i.e., £46, then we wouldn't be having this discussion! We'd all be at the loco train shop buying new toys!

Cheers, NeMo

Hi NeMo

I'm new to N-Gauge and just outside of Melbourne Australia, by local Model shop carries a good range of stock, but not everything I need with 25% possibly N-Gauge. I bought a Dapol Papyrus 12 months ago it cost me A$225, they are now stopped selling Dapol loco's but equivelant Farrish Loco's are aroung it for A$350-A$400 mark. I cannot wait for my UK trip I'm chomping at the bit to get in to Hattons. A$400 is approx 180 quid for a Loco, I am looking for a N-Gauge Thomas model for my layout when the grandkids come around, but have not seen one in N I might have to buy a Fowler or Jinty 0-6-0 and repaint it.

Tomix are the only company that sell Thomas stuff in N gauge :thumbsup:


Paul

Quote from: Sprintex on September 25, 2015, 05:19:26 AM
Tomix are the only company that sell Thomas stuff in N gauge :thumbsup:


Paul

And it's out of production so only available second-hand. Goes for reasonable prices in Japan but I hear tales of extortionate sums demanded overseas.

Quote from: triumphdude on September 25, 2015, 03:55:23 AM

Quote from: NeMo on September 19, 2015, 10:01:49 AM

Quote from: Webbo on September 19, 2015, 09:34:16 AM
Say the locos are worth $100 each to buy new

But they're not. British outline N-gauge locos are nearer the £100 mark ($216 Australian) and increasingly over that price.

If British N-gauge locos were $100 Australian, i.e., £46, then we wouldn't be having this discussion! We'd all be at the loco train shop buying new toys!

Cheers, NeMo

Hi NeMo

I'm new to N-Gauge and just outside of Melbourne Australia, by local Model shop carries a good range of stock, but not everything I need with 25% possibly N-Gauge. I bought a Dapol Papyrus 12 months ago it cost me A$225, they are now stopped selling Dapol loco's but equivelant Farrish Loco's are aroung it for A$350-A$400 mark. I cannot wait for my UK trip I'm chomping at the bit to get in to Hattons. A$400 is approx 180 quid for a Loco, I am looking for a N-Gauge Thomas model for my layout when the grandkids come around, but have not seen one in N I might have to buy a Fowler or Jinty 0-6-0 and repaint it.

As Australia is not in the EEC, if you take your Passport & return flight details into Hattons you will be able to fill in a "Global Refund Form" that will enable you to get all the VAT back about a month later.

Of course if you order on-line and get Hattons to send it to you Direct - that will be VAT free in the first place. I should imagine that could make quite a bit of diffrence to the cost of your purposes.

Quote from: Tdm on September 25, 2015, 09:46:52 AM

Quote from: triumphdude on September 25, 2015, 03:55:23 AM

Quote from: NeMo on September 19, 2015, 10:01:49 AM

But they're not. British outline N-gauge locos are nearer the £100 mark ($216 Australian) and increasingly over that price.

If British N-gauge locos were $100 Australian, i.e., £46, then we wouldn't be having this discussion! We'd all be at the loco train shop buying new toys!

Cheers, NeMo

Hi NeMo

I'm new to N-Gauge and just outside of Melbourne Australia, by local Model shop carries a good range of stock, but not everything I need with 25% possibly N-Gauge. I bought a Dapol Papyrus 12 months ago it cost me A$225, they are now stopped selling Dapol loco's but equivelant Farrish Loco's are aroung it for A$350-A$400 mark. I cannot wait for my UK trip I'm chomping at the bit to get in to Hattons. A$400 is approx 180 quid for a Loco, I am looking for a N-Gauge Thomas model for my layout when the grandkids come around, but have not seen one in N I might have to buy a Fowler or Jinty 0-6-0 and repaint it.

As Australia is not in the EEC, if you take your Passport & return flight details into Hattons you will be able to fill in a "Global Refund Form" that will enable you to get all the VAT back about a month later.

Of course if you order on-line and get Hattons to send it to you Direct - that will be VAT free in the first place. I should imagine that could make quite a bit of diffrence to the cost of your purposes.

For the discerning Australian it works out cheaper to order online from Hattons, I can confirm you do not pay VAT, at checkout it does show a VAT charge but it is automatically generated because the checkout does not have an address set.  The final confirmation of order will show the correct charge.  Admittedly the last time I ordered the add to cart button didn't do anything, but I found a way to get a Dapool BR blue HST.  Also use DHL or Royal Mail first class for shipping.

To get an idea of the average shop here it is 70% HO/OO, of which it is mostly Hornby and the non-Hornby is dominated by US prototype.  This means UK N gauge is usually a shelf in a modest glass cabinet. 

Back to the original topic I skimmed though, realistically cars are astronomical money sinks, cost a fortune in time and energy to build and cost an even bigger fortune to maintain, it is one of the most uneconomical modes of transport, but its still better than a horse since a car never gets tired or leaves surprises behind for inattentive foot traffic.  I figure $4000 a year is not that much for the hobby too, I know people who spend that much just on coffee in a year.   Then again I know people who could drop $15000 in alcohol a year.

Please keep reading as this does eventually get 'on topic' but I feel a little 'scene setting' is called for.
Many outside the UK might not know of Bonfire Night so, for them, a short explanation. Sorry to those who know already. If you do please ignore the next paragraph.
Basically a man, who today would be called a 'terrorist', tried to blow up the British parliament 410 years ago (1605) which would have resulted in the killing not only the leading parliamentarians of that day but the King, nobles and many other people. He was not acting alone but Guy Fawkes is the most well known member. The 'Gunpowder Plot', as it was called, failed when the plotters were betrayed but this act is remembered in the UK on 5th November every year (the date of the attempt) with bonfires and fireworks, some say to celebrate the fact it failed, others to represent the building burning (the bonfire) and sparks shooting into the sky (the fireworks) had it succeeded, depending on your 'side' in the matter! Either way it can be a great, fun, night (if done correctly).

And now to the connection with model railway costs.
Today, while out shopping, I picked up a leaflet about the costs of fireworks and thought I'd compare them with (approximate costs) of model railway equipment.
For example I could by a box of 14 (small) fireworks for the cost of one wagon kit (£6), a box of 17 (large) fireworks for the cost of one coach (£20) or a box of 28 (mixed size) fireworks for the cost of two coaches (£45).
Moving into the larger 'family sized' boxes a 'bumper box' of fireworks costs about the same as a locomotive (£80 - £100).
The point being, of course, that the fireworks last just one night but, used with care, the rolling stock might last many years.

Compared to the costs of the fireworks the models are really cheap and I know where I'd sooner spend my £100. Where did I leave my Hatton's catalogue?

But for those having the fireworks instead I wish you all a happy and safe evening.

Strange how you should bring this up, my kids have never had a bonfire and fireworks at home, we always took them to organised displays because it represents better value, they even at a tender age could never understand why people would want to buy something, and then destroy it !

I have this sort of discussion with mates at work who spend their disposable income by going out and drinking copious amounts of beer, they too complain about the price of it, mainly because I think they have nothing to show for the £30 they spent the night before, except a sore head.

At least with our hobby you have something to show for it when your wallet is empty.

Have you seen the list price for Bachmann's new OO autocoach - £68.95!!! I hope this is not a harbinger of things to come.

Quote from: Chris m on October 22, 2015, 11:04:58 AM
Have you seen the list price for Bachmann's new OO autocoach - £68.95!!! I hope this is not a harbinger of things to come.

My feelings on this are. that lower production costs in China are not being passed on to the consumer, that being said. costs in China are rising as the workers want the wages to buy the stuff they are making.

Quote from: Chris m on October 22, 2015, 11:04:58 AM
Have you seen the list price for Bachmann's new OO autocoach - £68.95!!! I hope this is not a harbinger of things to come.

It is expensive, but I don't think its is bad value at all for a quality model - Though I hope the bell rings :D

As just one of these and a 14xx (or 64xx) makes a whole train I do suspect Bachmann have priced it higher than a normal coach would be.

Quote from: JasonBz on October 22, 2015, 11:49:24 AM

Quote from: Chris m on October 22, 2015, 11:04:58 AM
Have you seen the list price for Bachmann's new OO autocoach - £68.95!!! I hope this is not a harbinger of things to come.

It is expensive, but I don't think its is bad value at all for a quality model - Though I hope the bell rings :D

As just one of these and a 14xx (or 64xx) makes a whole train I do suspect Bachmann have priced it higher than a normal coach would be.

It looks like a relay well detailed model,

Whilst on the subject of money - the other day my 40 year car radio/cassette player in my Stag gave up the ghost, and I only kept my old cassette tape collection for use in the car.

I decided I would replace it with a more modern car stereo system into which I could plug my MP3 player as it is on that I keep copies of most of my music, and I can now throw away the cassettes as I already have copies of the ones I like on CD and the MP3 player.

After taking measurements I asked in our local TV/Radio/Phone/etc electrical shop if they had just a simple basic model that would fit in the car. I came away with an AEG Stereo Car Radio with USB & Card Reader (model AR 4027 USB/CR) which cost me €49.90 (aprox £36 Sterling) and am currently making an adaptor plate so that it will fit in Stag's dash as the existing one is unique to the Blaupunct model it used to house.

Out of curiosity is the above model sold in the U.K., and if it is how much does it cost?
When I looked at places like Argos a similar type of device in the U.K. seemed a lot more expensive.

Quote from: D1042 Western Princess on October 22, 2015, 10:38:42 AM
Moving into the larger 'family sized' boxes a 'bumper box' of fireworks costs about the same as a locomotive (£80 - £100).
The point being, of course, that the fireworks last just one night but, used with care, the rolling stock might last many years.

Compared to the costs of the fireworks the models are really cheap and I know where I'd sooner spend my £100. Where did I leave my Hatton's catalogue?

And if the worst comes to the worst you can always sell the locomotive or whatever. That's what I tell myself each time I buy something.  :D

Quote from: JasonBz on October 22, 2015, 11:49:24 AM


As just one of these and a 14xx (or 64xx) makes a whole train I do suspect Bachmann have priced it higher than a normal coach would be.

Most times yes, but on busy services such as seaside lines in summer, or even commuter routes, it was not unknown for a tank engine to be sandwiched between two autocoaches.

I think my expenses might be going up soon, as I have ben thinking about a new layout, a GWR branch line to finally use some of the stock I have been hording, sorry collectiong over the years.

Just what the world need another GWR branch line  :'(

Quote from: paulprice on October 23, 2015, 09:49:07 AM
I think my expenses might be going up soon, as I have ben thinking about a new layout, a GWR branch line to finally use some of the stock I have been hording, sorry collectiong over the years.

Just what the world need another GWR branch line  :'(

Not my cup of tea but if it's what you like Go for it.

Quote from: steve836 on October 23, 2015, 09:55:11 AM

Quote from: paulprice on October 23, 2015, 09:49:07 AM
I think my expenses might be going up soon, as I have ben thinking about a new layout, a GWR branch line to finally use some of the stock I have been hording, sorry collectiong over the years.

Just what the world need another GWR branch line  :'(

Not my cup of tea but if it's what you like Go for it.

But I'm supposed to be an LMS fan, just looking at rough prices I'm looking at £50 for points alone

Tdm

The AR4027 is available from Conrad-Electronic.co.uk for £22.95 + £6.99 for delivery but that's an online price and you have to set up an account with them.

When I searched Ebay similar device's from an UK stockist were showing a price of £11.68 with free delivery however they were unbranded and the above prices will reflect the savings over running a retail outlet. I think for this reason independent electrical shops seem to be scarce  with the few that remain only selling top brands whilst also providing installation services to gain a worthwhile profit.

Back in the 1980,s/90's these type of products use to cost a small fortune. I don't think in years to come the same will be said about model railway's though as I'm sure they are far more a specialized industry unfortunately.

John

Quote from: paulprice on October 23, 2015, 10:14:21 AM
[

But I'm supposed to be an LMS fan, just looking at rough prices I'm looking at £50 for points alone

Couldn't you do an LMS branch on the border of GWR territory then?

Quote from: steve836 on October 23, 2015, 01:53:37 PM

Quote from: paulprice on October 23, 2015, 10:14:21 AM
[

But I'm supposed to be an LMS fan, just looking at rough prices I'm looking at £50 for points alone

Couldn't you do an LMS branch on the border of GWR territory then?

Possibly but I'm really looking for an excuse to run my GWR stock, at least I don't have to buy anymore, though a Union Mills Dean Goods would be handy

How about creating a fantasy company to combine the two? You could call it the London, Northern and Western Railway.  :P

When I used to model in that other gauge (which I won't name as this is a family forum) I modelled the GER section of  BR(E) but to run other regions stock I included a bit of the North London line which connected to all regions and served as an interchange route. Another ploy might be, and I'm talking from ignorance here, weren't there any common routes with the Western on similar lines to the M&GN route to East Anglia or the running rights that GER and L&Y enjoyed over each others metals?

How about the Shrewsbury and Wellington Joint Railway (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shrewsbury_and_Wellington_Joint_Railway)?

Quote from: Chris m on October 22, 2015, 11:04:58 AM
Have you seen the list price for Bachmann's new OO autocoach - £68.95!!! I hope this is not a harbinger of things to come.

Interestingly I have seen a review in one of the model railway magazines (Modelrail, I think) and it doesn't rate too highly, only in the high 80s per cent (88% if memory serves).
For nearly £70 I'd have expected high 98 plus, and I can't think I'm alone.

Quote from: D1042 Western Princess on October 23, 2015, 07:52:19 AM

Quote from: JasonBz on October 22, 2015, 11:49:24 AM


As just one of these and a 14xx (or 64xx) makes a whole train I do suspect Bachmann have priced it higher than a normal coach would be.

Most times yes, but on busy services such as seaside lines in summer, or even commuter routes, it was not unknown for a tank engine to be sandwiched between two autocoaches.

You can have up to two at each end, The (pre Tamar Bridge) Plymouth- Saltash shuttles were routinely two autocoaches.
I was trying to point out that in Bachmann land it is possible to have a full train with just the one - So potentially a slight extra mark up opportunity :)

Quote from: Tdm on October 22, 2015, 02:31:30 PM
Whilst on the subject of money - the other day my 40 year car radio/cassette player in my Stag gave up the ghost, and I only kept my old cassette tape collection for use in the car.

I decided I would replace it with a more modern car stereo system into which I could plug my MP3 player as it is on that I keep copies of most of my music, and I can now throw away the cassettes as I already have copies of the ones I like on CD and the MP3 player.

After taking measurements I asked in our local TV/Radio/Phone/etc electrical shop if they had just a simple basic model that would fit in the car. I came away with an AEG Stereo Car Radio with USB & Card Reader (model AR 4027 USB/CR) which cost me €49.90 (aprox £36 Sterling) and am currently making an adaptor plate so that it will fit in Stag's dash as the existing one is unique to the Blaupunct model it used to house.

Out of curiosity is the above model sold in the U.K., and if it is how much does it cost?
When I looked at places like Argos a similar type of device in the U.K. seemed a lot more expensive.

Lots of options in the UK (I lost count of how many stereos I've fitted over the years), your AEG one fits firmly in budget / unbranded or Chinese category -lots the spec a plenty.  If it were me with a classic I's fit a modern retro look radio -but it's all down to cost etc.  One thing for sure on forums is if you find a cheap option, someone will come along with  cheaper / better one.  If you get something for free, the next man got paid for it so yo will never win and what you pay is what you pay...

(I sympathise -spent last week looking for a new car for my my Mum as her '06 Clio blew a head gasket.  Car sorted, since,  the radio failed in my 09 Ibiza 2 days ago so I have to start ripping the dash and head lining apart also to troubleshoot).  Cars, I love them but GRRR sometimes...

Quote from: railsquid on October 22, 2015, 02:59:39 PM

Quote from: D1042 Western Princess on October 22, 2015, 10:38:42 AM
Moving into the larger 'family sized' boxes a 'bumper box' of fireworks costs about the same as a locomotive (£80 - £100).
The point being, of course, that the fireworks last just one night but, used with care, the rolling stock might last many years.

Compared to the costs of the fireworks the models are really cheap and I know where I'd sooner spend my £100. Where did I leave my Hatton's catalogue?

And if the worst comes to the worst you can always sell the locomotive or whatever. That's what I tell myself each time I buy something.  :D

:hmmm:

Well, in theory you could also sell the used fireworks too....

::)  :-[

I know,   :whiteflag:   :goodbye:

Quote from: JasonBz on October 23, 2015, 07:48:12 PM

You can have up to two at each end, The (pre Tamar Bridge) Plymouth- Saltash shuttles were routinely two autocoaches.
I was trying to point out that in Bachmann land it is possible to have a full train with just the one - So potentially a slight extra mark up opportunity :)

I did get your point Jason but still wonder why the model of a coach is priced at nearly as much as a locomotive?

Quote from: D1042 Western Princess on October 24, 2015, 05:48:34 AM

Quote from: JasonBz on October 23, 2015, 07:48:12 PM

You can have up to two at each end, The (pre Tamar Bridge) Plymouth- Saltash shuttles were routinely two autocoaches.
I was trying to point out that in Bachmann land it is possible to have a full train with just the one - So potentially a slight extra mark up opportunity :)

I did get your point Jason but still wonder why the model of a coach is priced at nearly as much as a locomotive?

I think the only answer to that "Is because they can.."
on the subject of Fireworks - you can at least use the used Rocket sticks for something useful on the old train set :)

Quote from: steve836 on October 23, 2015, 01:53:37 PM

Quote from: paulprice on October 23, 2015, 10:14:21 AM
[

But I'm supposed to be an LMS fan, just looking at rough prices I'm looking at £50 for points alone

Couldn't you do an LMS branch on the border of GWR territory then?

This is exactly what our club are building at the moment, a layout  called High Offley, it's a scenario based on an LNER line joining a GWR line, the set up is quite complicated and invvoles a number of points and two double slips.

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/77373-high-offley-formerly-exchange-sidings/ (http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/77373-high-offley-formerly-exchange-sidings/)