I'm wondering if anyone else feels the same way that I do when attending model railway exhibitons. I spend the drive down there looking forward to what I am going to see, what I'm going to buy.
I park up and eagerly walk to the doors, pay my entrance fee and in I go....
Only to find more of the same old, same old. Now admittedly most of the layouts in our exhibition halls are of British prototypes, either steam, diesel or both. I understand that most people who go to the exhibition are going to like British trains, mainly.
I spend around ten seconds at each layout, before moving onto the next, and find after I've been round each one that I feel cheated. There are very few layouts which inspire me any more. Don't know what it is, but I find myself thinking that my own layout reaches a higher standard than some of them.
Don't get me wrong : I am grateful to the layout owners and exhibition managers putting on a show, but I've lost that "loving feeling" when it comes down to it.
As for the sales stands, very few of them offer bargains any more. They are usually the same prices you will find in a store (those that are still left).
I recently passed up an exhibition at the Midland Railway Centre, literally just two miles from where I live. The show was on a preserved railway which I have visited loads of times. Prices included a ride on the train.
There were 15 British layouts, two German ones, a French one, an Eastern European one and a Danish one. No American or Canadian layouts at all.
The latter was the main deciding factor that I wasn't going. Entry including the ride was £13.50 for adults.
For that price, plus the cost of the bus fare or petrol, I can buy a decoder for one my own locos, so I have something to show for it!
Am I Oscar the Grouch on this, or do others feel the same way about their shows?
Quote from: texhorse on August 23, 2015, 08:29:35 PM
Am I Oscar the Grouch on this,
In a word, yes ;)
Why go if you know there's going to be nothing to your particular interest? I could go to loads of local shows, yet I don't if I look at the layout list and there's nothing to interest me. On the other hand I'll happily drive a reasonable distance to a show if there IS a layout or two that I particularly want to see. So if your area of interest is North American then why bother if it's all UK and European layouts? I know my mate who's into Canadian HO won't bother going unless there's something to see :)
As for traders I've rarely seen any bargains for what I want so just as easy to buy online or locally :thumbsup:
Paul
I take your points and agree with them Paul, but that's not really what I was getting at. I think the quality of the layouts and modelling is nowhere near as good as it used to be. A lot of the layouts have the same buildings, or the similar track layouts. Maybe I'm too choosy now, I just think that things used to be better!
Having said that, I am going to the International N Gauge Show in a fortnight, and the Blackpool / Fylde show the week after (operating).
Andy
It's for these very reasons I tend to only attend every 4 to 6 years
I used to go to Model Rail Scotland every year, and whilst a gauge related theme was supposed to be in place quite often the same layouts would be present (and is still the case many years later)
I've only been to the N Gauge Show once in 2006, to inspect Littlewood
I spent all day there
I've been waiting for a DCC layout to appear
The perennial question ...
Went to the Ludlow show yesterday ... only £2.50 to get in so a fiver for SWMBO included. About 18 exhibitors, not all were model rail (eg model bus), but a good third or more were in N. Generally the quality was good (but not higher), with a few notable exceptions that made me ask myself "why bother ?". Not too many were of great interest to me, and several didn't run anything that I could see while there (a pet bug-bear) on my couple of trips around. The latter I just don't get - one of the layouts had been abandoned ! Grrr. It's not difficult to have something moving, even if it's slowly ! None of the dealers had any good bargains, at least as far as I was concerned, although SWMBO did pick up an LNER book :thumbsup:
Of the layouts that did provide some interest, I must say it wasn't great interest ... So why bother going ? Mainly because it was local, & I'd remembered it ! But I don't treat small shows like I do large ones; I know going in I'm not going to see really good layouts (not unless I'm very lucky ! But the Blackpool trams were absent this year ::)); I know I'm not going to find that engine or carriage or wagon I just must have; and I know I'm not going to find a really good reference book. Knowing all this, I have my expectations set quite low and if anything, I just hope to have them met ! Fortunately, having them this low means the show must be really bad to fail to meet them :P Sadly - that can still happen :o
But let's say that instead of at the Racecourse they held it on the SVR, and that instead of a fiver I'd be looking at paying in excess of £25 for entrance + a ride. For my money, I'd expect a lot more ... so no, I can't say I blame you for not going to your local one. I would have done just the same ... well, unless the SVR had a visiting engine running I really wanted to ride behind !!! :heart2:
But you've reminded me that I need to check the book to see if it's one we already have ::)
I sometimes wonder why I bother with exhibitions, but generally the good ones (or the ones with good stuff) outweigh the bad. Generally it is the layouts I go to see, I don't expect to find bargains because I always assume that the cost to the retailer of attending the show will limit their ability to offer discounts. But one of the retailers might just have that elusive item I've been looking for.
I went to the Midland Railway Centre exhibition last weekend and I thought it was reasonable value for the combined attractions of the railway and the exhibition. For me the railway was, in this case, the main draw and the exhibition a nice bonus.
One thing that does disappoint me about a lot of layouts at exhibitions is the operation. I like to see railway operations; locos running round stock; trains splitting or joining; empty stock going to carriage sidings or between platforms; slow trains being held in passing loops. I know not every layout will allow such operations and after a long day at the controls operators may not want the hassle; but it is a bit dull when all you see is trains arriving and departing. Of course even that is better than layout where nothing moves at all.
Andy, I totally agree with you. Yes, I know it takes months, even years, to put a layout together, I know it takes serious time and effort to exhibit that layout and all the rest.
But if, for what ever reason, that layout does not appeal to the show visitor then, in my view, the show visitor has every right to say they didn't like the layout in the same way you might say that you didn't like a particular film, play, piece of music and so on.
It doesn't help, in my case, that only a very narrow band actually appeals to me and it doesn't include steam, foreign railways, narrow gauge, anything pre 1965 (too many steam engines) or post 1977 (no Diesel Hydraulics), 'rule one', layouts where nothing moves for ages and so on. Not that I'm fussy or anything though :D. Essentially it must have Diesel Hydraulics and be Western Region, or another region with DHs working there.
As for shops and retail outlets given that the traders have to pay to get to the shows, often close the shop for the day (in cases of the smaller traders anyway) and so on I accept that their prices would be the same (although a few years ago 'show specials' were commonly offered by many) but times change, their profit margins are slimmer etc. so I don't think we can grumble about them charging the same.
As ever, just my personal thoughts on the subject.
Crikey - this exhibition topic makes my head spin :o
This very recent topic started with the premise that exhibition standards are too HIGH and put people off:
http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=29022.0 (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=29022.0)
This got locked.........lots of strong and diverging opinions about what made a good layout/exhibition with little consensus, even on dress standards...... :confused1:
Cheers Jon :)
Well, Jon,
I guess this shows that we of the NGF are unbiased - we criticise all levels of show/exhibition & the attending layouts :D
No favouritism here, ya know ! :P
I seldom go to exhibitions. When I worked full time it was because I was always at work, now I have retired it is because I feel the cost of entrance plus the cost of getting there would be better used buying something for my layout. As regards inspiration, I get plenty of that talking to you guys (and gals).
You can't please all the people all of the time...
Quote from: texhorse on August 23, 2015, 08:29:35 PM
Am I Oscar the Grouch on this
Afraid so... ::)
Quote from: texhorse on August 23, 2015, 08:29:35 PMI spend around ten seconds at each layout, before moving onto the next, and find after I've been round each one that I feel cheated.
How the heck can you fully assess a layout in 10 seconds? That is far too quick to take in all the nuances of a layout or see it properly in operation
I'm sure the layout builders/operators feel equally 'cheated' that you are so dismissive of their handiwork based on the merest of glances... :no:
Quote from: texhorse on August 23, 2015, 08:29:35 PMDon't know what it is, but I find myself thinking that my own layout reaches a higher standard than some of them.
Can we have a 10 second glance at your layout please so we can judge for ourselves (would you consider that long enough to make a fair judgement of your work??)
Quote from: texhorse on August 23, 2015, 08:29:35 PMAs for the sales stands, very few of them offer bargains any more. They are usually the same prices you will find in a store
Apart from those (what many consider) low-grade shows that unashamedly sell themselves on quantity not quality with row after row of box-shifters and second hand, I would say that exhibitions have never been the right place for "Bargain Hunting". At exhibitions for me the more important aspect of the trade is to be able to talk face to face to the smaller harder to reach specialist traders & manufacturers with the bits and pieces you can't get from the big on-line R-T-R merchants...
I honestly think deep down that nothing will please you all the time and we all have different Idea's how things should be done, I had a whinge once to Mick about certain layouts but now I have had a rethink about it all, and it must be bloody hard work setting up there model railway here and there throughout the year, and one thing I have noticed is if you stay there for more than 10 seconds and look more closely you can pick up lots of little ideas that you can maybe implement on your own model.
It is so easy to be judgmental and I for one will never again, but I agree about the model shops and anyone selling it would be nice to see at least 10% off shop prices but when you have the likes of Hatton's that is going to be hard to compete and at least it is there in front of you to inspect before you buy.
Quote from: PLD on August 24, 2015, 10:04:04 AM
How the heck can you fully assess a layout in 10 seconds? That is far too quick to take in all the nuances of a layout or see it properly in operation
He never said 'fully assess' though, did he ?
I tend to agree with him; OK, maybe 10 seconds is a bit brief, but up to 30 seconds is enough to tell you if you want to spend time at that layout; it's enough to see whether the operators are doing things or just gossiping (or otherwise ignoring the paying public); it's enough to see if the stock or general scenery is in your sphere of interest; it's enough to see if care has been taken or not on the creation of the layout.
Quote
At exhibitions for me the more important aspect of the trade is to be able to talk face to face to the smaller harder to reach specialist traders & manufacturers with the bits and pieces you can't get from the big on-line R-T-R merchants...
Well, that just depends on your interests & what you want to do, doesn't it ? If you're
not into scratch-building, or kit-building, or super-detailing, if you
are happy with the range & quality from the major players, then you'll not have any interest in the specialists ...
You said it right, at the start, before you branched off ...
QuoteYou can't please all the people all of the time...
"10 seconds" sounds like a quick look rather than 'stop watch accurate' to me.
As others have said, 30 seconds to a minute is more than enough to assess if a layout is likely to interest you or not.
Being totally OTT for a few seconds but (for example) no matter how detailed or authentic an Outer Mongolian narrow gauge line set in the 1900s will be of no interest and 10 - 15 seconds would be enough to judge that, whereas a crudely built, and indifferently operated, branch layout set in 1970s Devon where a Class 22 or 35 is shunting a few wagons in a yard could hold my interest for ages.
It's all personal choice and opinion.
As one who attends many shows annually my expectations would seem to rise and fall along with entrance prices. Maybe not the best criteria but bear with me. One gets to know what are the 'big' shows such as Wigan, Stafford and, of course, TINGS & Warley (entrance fee anything up to £10) and which are the smaller ones (entrance at anything between £4-6). The larger shows tend to have enormous layouts with a few smaller ones filling in the gaps and tend to be in much better venues for viewing e.g. the lighting is better but, and it's a big BUT, big is not necessarily beautiful especially if the era/location is not of interest to me and, having the attention span of a goldfish, if nothing runs within a minute I move rapidly on no matter how exquisitely the layout might look. Smaller shows can throw up little gems which I can happily spend a long time looking at, asking questions of the operator(s) who are invariably more forthcoming than those at larger shows :-\
Trade stands at the bigger shows tend, I find, to be a source of tools and essential bits whereas, at the smaller shows, the best bargains are probably to be found on the organising clubs 'cast offs' stand and haggling is both allowed and welcomed in the main.
Just my two penn'orth.
Interesting.
The first time I attended TINGS I was on my own, not knowing anyone from the forum or "N" gauge for that matter.
Now I look forward to the show because I get to meet up with other like minded individuals. especially those from the forum!
If it weren't for that feedback, the pleasure of shaking hands with friends, I doubt if I would attend every year.
Since my interest is across the (base)board there is always something hold my attention but it is the people that are my main interest.
Peter.
Ok my 2-penneth worth here, as far as layouts are concerned, yes I'm quite narrow visioned when it comes to looking at the lists if what is going to attend, but if I decide to go to the show, then I will look at pretty much all the layouts there. I have been equally enthused by an Steam era layout as I have about a BR Blue 1970-1980's era layout, and I have been known to operate an ultra modern era layout as well.
From the other side, as a Club Chairman, don't forget that a lot of these Exhibitions are also a means to generate funds for the Local Club, which will enable them to survive, have a roof over their heads and build Club layouts.
Regards
Neal
Chairman
BMRG
I've been to a fair few shows over the last few years and I think the main thing that disappoints me is when you have a cracking layout with nothing running on it.
Having said that, I'll be at TINGS with Heworth Sidings (modern image DCC), so I might be on the wrong end of this thread in a couple of weeks :D
Cheers, Mark.
Quote from: Calnefoxile on August 24, 2015, 12:24:07 PMFrom the other side, as a Club Chairman, don't forget that a lot of these Exhibitions are also a means to generate funds for the Local Club, which will enable them to survive, have a roof over their heads and build Club layouts.
:thumbsup:
which is why I always pay "Adult" and dont claim my concession (aka 2nd Childhood) cos it's all in a good cause.
my thruppenceworth, why do exhibitions always start at the crack of dawn and close so early in the day !
Well, mission accomplished; I got you guys debating on the exhibitions (I didn't see the other thread about the layout standards being too high). I think you can get plenty of feedback on a layout in ten seconds. Are trains moving? Is the scenery rough and ready? Are they the usual buildings you can buy in a store?
You could say the same thing if you went to an art gallery. Could you look at a painting and see within ten seconds whether it holds your attention? Of course you can.
Maybe if I were to give them a fair chance, maybe I should give them another 20 or 30 seconds. Fair comment. But I believe that I can pick out a well constructed, well finished layout over a poorly constructed one. I went to an exhibition in the West Midlands recently. I won't embarrass them by stating which one. There were 19 advertised layouts. Three of them for one reason or another had not been able to attend. Not the manager's fault, and he had tried to find replacements.
The replacements including a glorified train set, and a Thomas starter set.
In another room, one of the advertised layouts had problems. This was established by the fifty-something guy waving a soldering iron over his layout, telling his mate it was "that bl**ding point again" while kids were watching.
Of the other layouts nothing was particularly standing out. I did spend a couple of minutes (almost a lifetime for me, I hear the cynics among you saying!) by an N Gauge depot layout. The owner had gone to a lot of trouble of laying the track nicely, detailing the scenery well and having a nice selection of locos. Unfortunately, one of the points right in the middle of the layout had decided to go pop, and he was also waving a soldering iron in the general direction of the point.
This is just one show I've been to. Now I hope exhibitions do continue to be put on for us all. I'm not that ungrateful, despite how I may sound. I just think they need to be for all levels of modellers. And before I get lumped in with the "rivet counters", I don't feel that level of correctness is good for the hobby either, in my opinion.
I can't quite put my finger on it, but there's something missing every time I visit an exhibition. If you are happy with your visit, then GREAT! I'm glad.
Finally, one of you guys asked for a video of my layout so you could look at it for ten seconds and then judge it. Go ahead. You can go onto Youtube, and search for "Montrose and Highland Railroad". I am the first to admit my layout isn't perfect either. But it's a darn sight better than some of the offerings I have seen at exhibitions over the last two or three years.
OK, fire away!
Andy
Quote from: Vonzack on August 24, 2015, 02:44:06 PM
I've been to a fair few shows over the last few years and I think the main thing that disappoints me is when you have a cracking layout with nothing running on it.
In defence of at least some layout operators and with the limited experience of having operated a pretty busy layout myself at a few shows recently, the average show lasts for around six hours. Having crawled out of bed before seven am on a Saturday morning to get to the venue and set up, keeping everything active and busy for the entire six hours is virtually impossible. At some point tiredness alone takes a bite out of your operating abilities, and marshalling fresh stock or curing the odd problem also causes things to seize up. What we do, though, is work hard to keep a train ready to dart into view whenever it looks like we'll have an audience, or keep something crawling through at super slow speed if people are just drifting around without settling, and by the end of the show, we know we've done a good job. The comments and conversations along the way show that, and so does the feeling of 'phew! we've done it!' ;)
Quote from: texhorse on August 24, 2015, 03:28:09 PM
I went to an exhibition in the West Midlands recently. I won't embarrass them by stating which one. There were 19 advertised layouts. Three of them for one reason or another had not been able to attend. Not the manager's fault, and he had tried to find replacements.
Name them and shame them! You paid out good money and weren't impressed
by the show, if you get a bad burger from McD or the Colonel you'd complain
so fire away! :D
Totally agree Pete, it can be a very long day when exhibiting, I have had moments on my small exhibition layout when someone walks up as one train leaves and they have wandered off before the next train enters the layout, only a few seconds as I swap the cassettes around, really frustrating as there is lots to look out on my layout but they pay their money, they takes their choice. Sounds like in some cases it is a no win situation, damned if you do damned if you dont!
At least with the shows you mention, most people enjoyed watching Bridgbury Gate and how we operated so we must have been doing something right Pete!
Best wishes
Simon
Quote from: texhorse on August 24, 2015, 03:28:09 PM
I think you can get plenty of feedback on a layout in ten seconds. Are trains moving? Is the scenery rough and ready? Are they the usual buildings you can buy in a store?
Maybe if I were to give them a fair chance, maybe I should give them another 20 or 30 seconds. Fair comment. But I believe that I can pick out a well constructed, well finished layout over a poorly constructed one.
In fairness, , I have seen many many well constructed layouts that look very realistic, only for the operation to let them down. e.g. no trains running, no trains (at all) stopping at a station, instant stop and instant start at stations/signals, scale speeds far too high, points incorrectly set before moving off (consistently), ridiculously tight radii in the scenic area, etc, to name but a handful. So the quality of the modelling should not be the only yardstick by which layouts should be judged, in my opinion.
I think I'd rather see a well run layout, of mediocre quality, than a beautifully crafted reconstruction, where the operators don't do it justice by their operation.
Quote from: Vonzack on August 24, 2015, 02:44:06 PM
I've been to a fair few shows over the last few years and I think the main thing that disappoints me is when you have a cracking layout with nothing running on it.
Agreed Pete33, but I had in mind the layouts where people are in front waiting for a minute or two and nothing is running. Generally as I'm going round a show, if I see a layout like this, I make a point to come back later and see if it was a one off or not.
Cheers, Mark.
Quote from: bridgiesimon on August 25, 2015, 12:02:09 PM
I have had moments on my small exhibition layout when someone walks up as one train leaves and they have wandered off before the next train enters the layout, only a few seconds...
Yes! That even happens on Bridgebury Gate. You can only get a fresh train around to the visual area so quickly, but some people walk off as soon as they see no action. Sometime you can't win.
Quote from: ScottyStitch on August 25, 2015, 12:14:03 PM
...I have seen many many well constructed layouts that look very realistic, only for the operation to let them down. e.g. no trains running, no trains (at all) stopping at a station, instant stop and instant start at stations/signals, scale speeds far too high, points incorrectly set before moving off (consistently)...
Thank goodness you added 'consistently' to the point about incorrectly set points (no pun intended). You wouldn't believe how easy it can be to forget the points during a full day of operations. Not that I'd know anything about that... :-[
Quote from: Pete33 on August 25, 2015, 01:27:47 PM
Quote from: bridgiesimon on August 25, 2015, 12:02:09 PM
I have had moments on my small exhibition layout when someone walks up as one train leaves and they have wandered off before the next train enters the layout, only a few seconds...
Yes! That even happens on Bridgebury Gate. You can only get a fresh train around to the visual area so quickly, but some people walk off as soon as they see no action. Sometime you can't win.
Quote from: ScottyStitch on August 25, 2015, 12:14:03 PM
...I have seen many many well constructed layouts that look very realistic, only for the operation to let them down. e.g. no trains running, no trains (at all) stopping at a station, instant stop and instant start at stations/signals, scale speeds far too high, points incorrectly set before moving off (consistently)...
Thank goodness you added 'consistently' to the point about incorrectly set points (no pun intended). You wouldn't believe how easy it can be to forget the points during a full day of operations. Not that I'd know anything about that... :-[
Absolutely Pete, mistakes and distractions happen, but when it happens all the time, I think it shows a lack of understanding of how the thing operates. A real train wouldn't move without the correct route being set, so why should models? It's as much a part of it as the scenery, to my mind.
Quote from: Pete33 on August 25, 2015, 01:27:47 PM
Thank goodness you added 'consistently' to the point about incorrectly set points (no pun intended). You wouldn't believe how easy it can be to forget the points during a full day of operations. Not that I'd know anything about that... :-[
Yes normally followed by the distant rumblings of "Oh Ballcocks" or something similar, as the train is hurriedly reversed and points changed before moving off again, been there, done that, worn the t-shirt (or should that be Polo shirt) ;) ;) ;)
Regards
Neal.
Quote from: ScottyStitch on August 25, 2015, 12:14:03 PM
I think I'd rather see a well run layout, of mediocre quality, than a beautifully crafted reconstruction, where the operators don't do it justice by their operation.
Seconded - well put Scotty.
Gentlemen
So far this is a fascinating thread, and seems to prove that Lincoln's dictum about 'pleasing all of the people' is correct.
Unfortunately we all have our own perceptions about what a layout 'should' contain and judge what we see based on those perceptions. Equally unfortunately, there will never be a layout (except our own; and even then, not always that one either) which will meet these expectations, yet we go to exhibitions anyway and when these expectations are not met (indeed, they never can be) complain bitterly about how poor the layouts (and, by inference, the entire exhibition) was. Perhaps a change of perception is needed, together with a degree of appreciation as to what is being presented. If however, such things are not possible, might I suggest that the only way left is to construct and exhibit one's own layout to the standards that no-one else can reach, since by so-doing, one is putting the action to the words (or one's money where one's mouth is). To do otherwise would seem to leave one with not a leg to stand on...
Being an 'armchair critic' is easy, doing something about it is hard.
Perhaps we need to ask ourselves which of these categories we come under, and act accordingly...
Very well put Komata.
Personally, the thing which puts me off is the crowds. I've been to several large exhibitions and have virtually given up because each stand is so crowded (maybe I should have gone on Sunday afternoons).
I now only attend small local shows where you can easily chat to the exhibitors and have time to have a good look at each stand. I am more interested in the scenics rather than train operation (though I do like to see something moving even if it is the same train going round and round). I do get bored with seeing small shunting layouts with locos moving back and forth moving the same wagons about but that's me. Others love to see that type of operation.
The only draw back living where I do is that the local shows tend to include the same exhibitors in rotation (me included).
for my sixpeneth , the only exibition I attend is at NRM Shildon , and its free entry with a donation box and I always give generaslly ,
The main fault that annoys me is silly little shelf size layouts that shunt from side to side opperators usualy to ignorant to address you with conversation , and worst of all NO trains running , lots of big layouts that goes around and I've yet to see them in action . And sound fitted locos that are too loud and annoying .
Another annoying fault is dim witt opperators fiddeling with electic's because things wont move - this should be sorted before rthe doors are open to the public .
keep up the good work all you exibitors -I've plenty at home to play with :D :bounce: :smiley-laughing:
I do attend a number of shows a year, both as a visitor and exhibitor.
In defence of some exhibitors, i.e. me ;), there some challenges when exhibiting - particularly as an overseas modeller.
Something people do forget is that exhibition halls often play havoc with a layout. Often they are humid, increasing as more bodies enter the hall, resulting in also sorts of issues cropping up; boards expanding creating shorts and electrical connections playing up (it is amazing how many people knock against a layout (even with barriers!)). The humidity also means track gets dirty very quickly - the electric current collects grease which attracts dirt. So, the environment of many halls can impact on running; even extremely reliable models such as my Japanese trains.
Age and wear and tear also plays a part - controllers will fail, point motors will die; normally at the most inopportune time! Occasionally a train itself will pack up(don't forget on some of the bigger tail-chasers, trains can clock up huge relative distances in a day (37 circuits of a 16 foot-long layout is approximately 1/4 of a mile - some of my stock on my previous layout could easily cover half a mile in a weekend).
Kanjiyama is an end-to-end layout - that means concentration is required when operating. Operating and talking does result in an occasional derailment, or switching the wrong section. Also, often a show is a weekend after a full week of work - so I'm tired and towards the end of the second day mistakes will crop up.
I have a sense of humour, but do get bored with the layout being knocked and lots of earthquake jokes ensuing...after the March 2011 earthquake and tsunami, it was amazing quite how many 'witty' comments were made about it - particularly when pointing at the baseboard join. Over 15,000 people died as a result; chortle! I am also well aware of Japan's less than honourable war record - I do not care to discuss it; suffice to say the questioner is often in possession of a Canon camera or such like.
There are naturally a good many more UK outline layouts than overseas, and I like all trains irrespective of era/country/region etc., but I do get bored with large numbers of the same thing at shows - basically BR steam and green. It does seem to me that a pretty average UK layout will always get preference over much higher quality overseas models - and there are some absolute crackers out there. One show does stick in my mind, where there was an okay 00 layout with a crowd of enthusiasts crowding around a Hornby Merchant Navy, but next door and infinitely better (in all respects IMHO) Col. Stephens type layout was virtually ignored - despite having plenty of activity. It seems many enthusiasts don't like something different!
Very well put across, Claude, especially the bit about mainly UK outline which is why I established the media galleries for any Japanese and North American layouts I see at shows as many of these are worth a long look.
I have attended many (and now exhibited at a few) Australian shows, and much the same can be said.
Each country seems to have its own customs and fashions for exhibition layout types. Down here in Oz we usually get fairly balanced mixes, typically 40% Australian prototype, 20% UK, 20% the rest (US, Europe, Japan) and 20% other (Lego, tinplate, roads, LGB, etc). By far the commonest layout type is continuous run with one station in front, storage roads in back, and operating well in the middle. And yes, this does tend to get repetitive - a large exhibition can have several layouts of this type that tend to blur together in both perception and memory. Even though most of them are of a good standard, I will usually move on quickly, often after that same brief 10-15 seconds. That is usually more than enough time to see if there is anything unusual and worth lingering over.
The key is having a good variety - nationality, scale, size, concept, operation. The occasional layout showing a bit of originality really tends to stand out from the pack and draw good crowds, recent examples being standard types done to an exceptional standard, a big octagonal layout built on a continuous gentle curve, a WW2 layout done all in black-and-white, an operating hump yard, a large scale logging operation which actually loads and unloads the logs, etc.
With a wide enough variety, there is a good chance of finding one or two layouts that you like, and that is enough to make the visit worthwhile.
martink
We seem to have a similar situation across the ditch. BTW, and FWIW, my wife accompanies me to most of my exhibitions and when bored goes wandering around to inspect other layouts.
She is 'railway neutral' and has no favourites (no, not even mine), She does however have one criteria when viewing. This is 'Does the layout tell a story?' If not, she moves on.
Submitted for what it's worth. I believe it's worth considering...
Indeed. I probably wasn't 100% clear, but a circuit on 16' layout is at least 32'. Including the curves that makes it approx 34' travelled in a single lap.
Edit: post I was replying to has gone...
This is an interesting thread, with good points on all sides but I want to throw my tuppence in for those of us who maybe get to go to one maybe two shows a year (I've not been for ages but I'm going to Timgs this year after having to miss it last year)
When I enter wherever I am, I'm like a kid, part of me can critically evaluate the lasts and sort through my preferences for different eras and countries, but the majority of my brain is screaming OMG TRAINS!!!! And I wander around in an ecstatic daze as it brings home to me that there are other people like me and that I'm in a room full of what I love
So I am totally stoked about TINGS and may even be brave enough to find NGF members to say hi to this year (I'm very much the lone wolf modeller)
Graham
i think one problem you have with layouts these days, is alot of peoples ideas have already been made! so we are limited to what we can make, and there alot of modellers like myself who no matter how hard we try couldnt scratchbuild anything if we wanted!
so the easiest thing for us to do, is theme it off somewhere and use buildings already available in kit for such as metcalfs etc. for us we still feel like we have made something of quality which we are proud of!
what annoys me when i go to exhibitions with my layout, yes mine isnt the best modelled, as im an amature! but love to show off my layout as im proud of it, but you get garunteed 10 people at each show slate me for how bad it looks compared to a different layout.
1-i dont care if its not as good as theres!
2-these people dont seem to give a toss about how much effort and time we put into it
3-they dont know the story behind buidling it
at great central i had to walk away for an hour due to someone slating me on the layout because it wasnt as good as theirs or someone elses! if you dont like it, go away! if you dont like the look of a exhibition, do go! but dont at any point comment on peoples modelling capabilities!
I may have started this thread off very negatively, but after what the above has said, I would like to make it very clear I would never EVER slag off someone's layout either on a forum, or face to face on an individual basis. I know people put lots of effort, time and money into their layouts, and I should remind myself of that sometimes.
I just feel that there's nothing new out there to see. I must be getting too old for this hobby....
Andy
Portland docks
Re: 'you get garunteed 10 people at each show slate me for how bad it looks compared to a different layout'.
Yet when asked to produce pics or discuss their OWN efforts. have you noticed that these self-same people suddenly find other things to do, especially if you ask them to 'put up or shut up'?. Because of the odd things that I do with 'N', I've not experienced THAT specific form of abuse (because that is, I have come to believe, what it is; with the abuser doing-so to make THEM feel good and 'superior'), although there are others I can assure you. It says more about the people making the statements than about you. Thankfully, the 'General Public' tend to have a more 'open minded' viewpoint. Knowing nothing about the finer points of brick courses or that one rock is out of place in a remote corner of a local quarry, they they are usually just pleased to see what you've done, so I tend to play to them in my presentations. And if all else fails, may I suggest that the 'Event Organiser' thought that your work was good enough to be seen in public, and view that as a compliment, that your layout is totally unique, and that ultimately, the whole point of what you've done is to have FUN; you're just been lucky enough to be able to 'play' in public'. : ) :)
Texhorse
Re: 'I just feel that there's nothing new out there to see. I must be getting too old for this hobby....
That, sir, I would doubt, and anyway, ultimately who cares? You've done what YOU want to do, and are happy with your efforts, and that is I believe the point of the exercise; to have and do what you want since you only have to satisfy YOURSELF - not some right charlie whom you'll probably never see again and who is 'all hat and no horse'!!!. To paraphrase the famous well-known moto: 'Don't let the rivet-counters' get you down'.
Hoping that this helps you both; Happy modelling...
Quote from: Komata on August 27, 2015, 06:49:57 PM
Portland docks
Re: 'you get garunteed 10 people at each show slate me for how bad it looks compared to a different layout'.
Yet when asked to produce pics or discuss their OWN efforts. have you noticed that these self-same people suddenly find other things to do, especially if you ask them to 'put up or shut up'?. Because of the odd things that I do with 'N', I've not experienced THAT specific form of abuse (because that is, I have come to believe, what it is; with the abuser doing-so to make THEM feel good and 'superior'), although there are others I can assure you. It says more about the people making the statements than about you. Thankfully, the 'General Public' tend to have a more 'open minded' viewpoint. Knowing nothing about the finer points of brick courses or that one rock is out of place in a remote corner of a local quarry, they they are usually just pleased to see what you've done, so I tend to play to them in my presentations. And if all else fails, may I suggest that the 'Event Organiser' thought that your work was good enough to be seen in public, and view that as a compliment, that your layout is totally unique, and that ultimately, the whole point of what you've done is to have FUN; you're just been lucky enough to be able to 'play' in public'. : ) :)
Texhorse
Re: 'I just feel that there's nothing new out there to see. I must be getting too old for this hobby....
That, sir, I would doubt, and to paraphrase the famous phrase: 'Don't let the rivet-counters' get you down'.
Hoping that this helps. Happy modelling...
Your quite right!
I basically tell them now if they have nothing good to say move on
Portland-docks, for myself I don't care if rooms are so detailed that you can read the papers on the station masters' desk or that every tree is at exactly the same scale height that it was on 21st July, 1963 at 3 pm that afternoon! (OK, a bit exaggerated, but some people do (almost) take it to those lengths.
Then, usually, they go and spoil it all by 'playing trains' with 'Rule One' operation! >:(
Good luck to them, if that's what they want but I don't want to see it. To me stretching Rule One to breaking point is running a Class 14 on a layout set in 1970, which I do only to run examples of all the Hydraulics.
To me, what matters, is that I am seeing a railway as it is/was and therefore so long as all the stock matches the date it's supposed to be set and the layout is operated correctly (signals, where working, are obeyed, for example) then all is well and the layout WILL hold my attention.
Even if the interiors of the houses are empty, road traffic doesn't move and, in general, the modelling is no better than I can do myself.
I would most likely find a layout like yours more interesting than many a 'Railway of the Month' which I have seen in the flesh. Keep up the good work :thumbsup:.
Best wishes,
Greg.
WP
Re: 'Then, usually, they go and spoil it all by 'playing trains' with 'Rule One' operation!'
This is of course where Freelance modellers such as myself have it over the 'prototypers', (and can cause them immense puzzlement BTW), BUT even we have to be able to produce something that is feasible, realistic and conforms to certain basic railway criteria, along with all the other scenery, era type matters that go to make up any model railway anyway. THAT I can assure you is not easy, and , since we (as freelancer's) have to 'imagine and invent' everything out of the metaphorical 'thin air' without reference to libraries, magazines photos etc. doing-so actually requires an effort which is probably beyond that required to model 'existing, actual, full-size prototype...
It's an interesting field to work in (and usually fun - except sometimes :) )
Quote from: Komata on August 28, 2015, 07:28:39 AM
WP
Re: 'Then, usually, they go and spoil it all by 'playing trains' with 'Rule One' operation!'
This is of course where Freelance modellers such as myself have it over the 'prototypers', (and can cause them immense puzzlement BTW), BUT even we have to be able to produce something that is feasible, realistic and conforms to certain basic railway criteria, along with all the other scenery, era type matters that go to make up any model railway anyway. THAT I can assure you is not easy, and , since we (as freelancer's) have to 'imagine and invent' everything out of the metaphorical 'thin air' without reference to libraries, magazines photos etc. doing-so actually requires an effort which is probably beyond that required to model 'existing, actual, full-size prototype...
It's an interesting field to work in (and usually fun - except sometimes :) )
What I mean by 'playing trains' is running an express just seconds behind a Class 9 goods rather than keeping the goods looped for the express to run ahead, ignoring signals, putting vacuumed braked only locos on modern, air braked stock (or vice versa), running unbraked goods trains without a brake van, running Virgin Voyagers (or other modern stock) on a layout where steam is predominant - that kind of thing spoils the whole layout (for me, anyway). A solitary steam/'heritage' diesel hauled excursion in the 2000s is acceptable, but not modern stock in the 1960s or earlier.
I suppose I have been a rail enthusiast/professional railwayman for too many years to find it 'acceptable' to my mind.
WP
Thank you for your reply.
Re: 'I suppose I have been a rail enthusiast/professional railwayman for too many years to find it 'acceptable' to my MIND'
You too? Been there, got the T-shirt (and the redundancy when the company changed owners and shrank), so I am familiar with your sentiments. I agree with the sentiments about running signals etc. together with incorrect sequences and /or consists, no tail-lamps etc. etc. etc., and for a long while had a real problem with the way that these things were happening on layouts; the things that professional railwaymen have to work with on a daily basis. The things that were happening on the layouts I saw at exhibitions SIMPLY WEREN'T RIGHT and how dare they not be!!!!!!!! 'Amateurs'!!! As I said, I am familiar with the situations / emotions.
I eventually 'got over it' by realising that (1) Not everyone was a railway 'professional'; that (2) the exhibitors / modellers were doing the best they could; (3) it wasn't my place to 'rain on their parade' by doing an 'Oscar the Grouch' impression; (4) I could have a lot more enjoyment by treating what I was seeing as 'entertainment'(which I had paid for BTW); (5) I might even learn something that I could use myself on any layout/s I might build; (6) it was actually very tiring 'picking nits' when I could be doing something far more constructive such as actually APPRECIATING what I was being shown (aka 'Stand easy'; to use a military phrase).
Doing-so made life immensely easier and I could (and did) take off my 'railway professional's' hat and simply 'enjoy the trains' and appreciate the effort that had gone into what I was seeing. Removing the 'hat' (actually a cap BTW), made it so much nicer, and yes, i did learn a lot (and still do, even though i am now an exhibitor myself).
Not sure if it helps, but posted for what it may be worth (if only for its 'entertainment' value).
I understand what Andy is saying and I'm in his corner. I've built two exhibition layouts, they were far from perfect both american (nuff said) the first one was a rush affair to get it ready. The kids loved it parents liked it and we were thanked by one lady for having it at a level that her children didn't need to stand on chairs to see it. The big hit was a Union Pacific PA1 A+B unit with a rake of yellow coaches. The kids called it the banana train. When I put the big boy on the kids were agog counting wheels. My point is a good layout very well done is a joy to behold, an average layout with out much detail is just as good if it's different.
Sorry I can go on abit.
James.
Hi James, it's good to see you on the N GAUGE Forum as well as the N SCALE Forum. There's a few of us bifocals here!
I started out this thread to stimulate conversation, and it's worked big time. I still have my same viewpoint which I started with, ie why are layouts at exhibitions and dealers just not exciting me any more. I have to admit there are some really great points made on here by the guys, and it's certainly making me think I ought to take in another exhibition soon and see if I am any more inspired. It's likely I'll be going to TINGS next, so at least the layouts I am looking at will all be N Gauge or N Scale.
Andy
I think the Bachmann price fixing thing is stifling competition and making the retailers seem very underwhelming because bargain hunting is no fun any more!
Cheers
Mark
Quote from: Komata on August 28, 2015, 10:19:58 AM
WP
Thank you for your reply.
Re: 'I suppose I have been a rail enthusiast/professional railwayman for too many years to find it 'acceptable' to my MIND'
You too? Been there, got the T-shirt (and the redundancy when the company changed owners and shrank), so I am familiar with your sentiments. I agree with the sentiments about running signals etc. together with incorrect sequences and /or consists, no tail-lamps etc. etc. etc., and for a long while had a real problem with the way that these things were happening on layouts; the things that professional railwaymen have to work with on a daily basis. The things that were happening on the layouts I saw at exhibitions SIMPLY WEREN'T RIGHT and how dare they not be!!!!!!!! 'Amateurs'!!! As I said, I am familiar with the situations / emotions.
I eventually 'got over it' by realising that (1) Not everyone was a railway 'professional'; that (2) the exhibitors / modellers were doing the best they could; (3) it wasn't my place to 'rain on their parade' by doing an 'Oscar the Grouch' impression; (4) I could have a lot more enjoyment by treating what I was seeing as 'entertainment'(which I had paid for BTW); (5) I might even learn something that I could use myself on any layout/s I might build; (6) it was actually very tiring 'picking nits' when I could be doing something far more constructive such as actually APPRECIATING what I was being shown (aka 'Stand easy'; to use a military phrase).
Doing-so made life immensely easier and I could (and did) take off my 'railway professional's' hat and simply 'enjoy the trains' and appreciate the effort that had gone into what I was seeing. Removing the 'hat' (actually a cap BTW), made it so much nicer, and yes, i did learn a lot (and still do, even though i am now an exhibitor myself).
Not sure if it helps, but posted for what it may be worth (if only for its 'entertainment' value).
You summed up my thoughts quite well. However, I feel that all the detailing and 'gimmicks' on layouts these days are wasted by people making avoidable errors.
I don't expect everyone to know BR's Rule Book off by heart (even long service staff don't know that, in 99% of cases, only the bits which apply to their grade), but at least the basics of rail operation would be nice to see at exhibitions once in a while. You can learn most of those things just with a few hours 'train spotting' at a major location, particularly for the most up to date layouts. And that is all I'm asking for.
Quote from: scruff on August 28, 2015, 10:39:04 PM
I think the Bachmann price fixing thing is stifling competition and making the retailers seem very underwhelming because bargain hunting is no fun any more!
All this talk of 'Bargain Hunting' at shows is a recent thing... It has never really been the case at shows of any quality.
It seems to have come about with the rise of the big in size, but low in quality shows (such as what Warley has become and the Warners efforts) where no thought is given to balancing the trade and the only stands who can afford to attend are the big RTR merchants who find themselves in a hall with a a dozen other identical looking stands have do option but to cut to the bone to compete.
If that is what attracts you, that's fine - it's your choice; but those events are generally regarded by more discerning visitors not as 'Exhibitions' in the traditional sense, but more like a "Swapmeet with a few (variable quality) layouts thrown in"...
Quote from: PLD on August 29, 2015, 08:56:47 AM
Quote from: scruff on August 28, 2015, 10:39:04 PM
I think the Bachmann price fixing thing is stifling competition and making the retailers seem very underwhelming because bargain hunting is no fun any more!
All this talk of 'Bargain Hunting' at shows is a recent thing... It has never really been the case at shows of any quality.
Sorry, Paul, but I have to disagree with you there. Either that or I have been attending poor quality shows for the last 4 years, and I don't necessarily believe that to be the case :no:
I was thinking more on the lines of no "show specials" being available any more from the retailers at shows.
I have always kept an eye out for bargains at shows for the last 35 years so it is not a new thing for me.
As for the layouts, I always tend to dwell by the ones that are operated realistically but tend to skip the more "train set" ones.
Cheers
Mark
Quote from: PLD on August 29, 2015, 08:56:47 AM
If that is what attracts you, that's fine - it's your choice; but those events are generally regarded by more discerning visitors not as 'Exhibitions' in the traditional sense, but more like a "Swapmeet with a few (variable quality) layouts thrown in"...
In my opinion, "generally regarded" (by whom?) and "more discerning" (compared to whom?) are the dangerous words here, because it implies there's an elite who know better than the riffraff.
But why should the layouts
alone be the benchmark for a good exhibition? Why shouldn't it be the shopping opportunities as well?
It's a question of personal taste rather than anything else. One man's meat is another man's poison. You might like realistic layouts that I find boring, and conversely, I might enjoy an unrealistically busy locomotive depot layout that irritates the pants off you with its inefficient shunting and wasteful concentration of motive power!
When it comes to exhibitions there really is no "right" way to do it, and any talk of quality is merely dressing up personal opinion as objective fact. Good shows will manage to cover all the bases, with busy, attractive layouts alongside a range of useful traders. Even better if there are some bargains on offer!
I'm thinking of visiting TINGS this year. Including the train fare and the bus connection that'll be £30.50. After spending that getting there, what's wrong in expecting a few bargains?
Cheers, NeMo
Put me down as one of the Riffraff please!! :-[ :D
Cheers
Mark
Quote from: scruff on August 29, 2015, 05:54:51 PM
Put me down as one of the Riffraff please!! :-[ :D
Cheers
Mark
Obviously I fall into that group as well :laugh:
Definitely a member of the riffraff here but rarely attend exhibitions because I only tend to get to local ones and have a senior moment forgetting that they are on
Quote from: newportnobby on August 29, 2015, 09:06:08 PM
Obviously I fall into that group as well :laugh:
I always thought of you as more Magenta than RiffRaff :P
Quote from: MikeDunn on August 29, 2015, 09:21:34 PM
Quote from: newportnobby on August 29, 2015, 09:06:08 PM
Obviously I fall into that group as well :laugh:
I always thought of you as more Magenta than RiffRaff :P
Qué? ???
As a point of interest could I make a plea for folks attending exhibitions to post some pics so those too far away from the venue can see what they missed (and maybe gain some ideas)? It would also allow us all to see those layouts that don't travel far from their base but maybe exist on 'the local circuit'.
:photospleasesign:
:thankyousign:
I have only attend four different exhibitions although several repeat attendances over many years.
To me what makes an exhibition work is the time and space to study, watch and learn. I spent one year watching a relatively NSE layout and not a second at a steam steam/diesel transition layout (which was apparently the greatest layout at the show) because I couldn't get near it. I learned loads from the NSE one with modern structures and fine detailing. Trust me I don't like NSE ( :sorrysign:) normally but was very impressed.
At 6 foot I would prefer layouts at say at 120cm to 150cm off the ground. I don't want them so I am looking at carriage roofs and having to stoop to look across scenery. That said I know this isn't easy or best for operators and all modellers.
I always aim to learn something from each layout and this helps me enjoy them more. A big question earlier in the thread about quick assessments of layouts and the need for trains running all the time, is this a knock on of society and the need for instant satisfaction?
Good trade support is essential, but not bargains (they are a nice add on).
The local shows I have attended exhibitors and operators seem under less pressure to perform. With this they seem more willing to talk, or have more time. This was the case as TINGs but its moving away in my opinion. That said some operators still go out their way to talk to the public and help with enquiries.
I now avoid Warley its just too busy and the lighting of the hall is always very dull. TINGs is getting busy as well and it is a concern. I wonder if there is a bigger issue that should be considered. Do the events have a limit on number attending at any one time and is it the correct limit, both from a safety and enjoyment level? This may sound silly, but Legoland closes its doors when too many people are attending!
One final point I am going to TINGs this year, simply to see the Sheaf again before its retired.
Graham
Its coming up to "Exhibition Season" and I haven't been to many for the last couple of years, so I should be abel to get a few snaps of what is out there :)
Quote from: PLD on August 29, 2015, 08:56:47 AMAll this talk of 'Bargain Hunting' at shows is a recent thing...
I thought that would stir things... ;)
The comment I responded to:
Quote from: scruff on August 28, 2015, 10:39:04 PM
I think the Bachmann price fixing thing is stifling competition and making the retailers seem very underwhelming because bargain hunting is no fun any more!
Clearly refers specifically to a Bachmann pricing policy which applies only for the first 12 weeks after release of a new RTR item, so it is only the very latest RTR releases that are relevant to that post...
If that is your main purpose for visiting, you will almost certainly have better luck at your local 'Swapmeet' or 'Toy Fair' than a model railway exhibition. At traditional type shows there never was a time when you saw row on row of stands competing for that sector of the market. It is only at the likes of the Warners shows that you do see that duplication/overlap and the RTR merchants have no option but to cut to the bone to compete.
Quote from: scruff on August 29, 2015, 03:25:45 PMI was thinking more on the lines of no "show specials" being available any more from the retailers at shows.
Actually, many exhibition traders are willing to negotiate a little if you ask nicely, particularly if you are buying multiple items, more so than an automated web-sales computer system will ever be...
Quote from: NeMo on August 29, 2015, 04:26:46 PMBut why should the layouts alone be the benchmark for a good exhibition? Why shouldn't it be the shopping opportunities as well?
...
Good shows will manage to cover all the bases, with busy, attractive layouts alongside a range of useful traders.
No one ever has said that layouts are the sole criteria - quite the opposite in fact...
Shopping opportunities is certainly part of the overall 'package' but as you say a good show will cover all the bases and that ought to mean a wide range of different types of product not a multiplicity all competing for one small corner of the market. The exhibition is far more useful as an arena to meet the smaller manufacturers and obtain the harder to obtain items than as a RTR collecting spree when exhibition trade stands are never realistically going to be able to compete on price with the big on-line merchants which is what some seem to want... If your primary aim is collecting the latest RTR releases at the lowest possible prices, why bother with the hassle time, and cost of going to a show, much quicker and easier and less stress to do from the comfort of your armchair at home...
Quote from: NeMo on August 29, 2015, 04:26:46 PMI'm thinking of visiting TINGS this year. Including the train fare and the bus connection that'll be £30.50. After spending that getting there, what's wrong in expecting a few bargains?
Nothing, but should you let a lack of those bargains spoil the day out? should you judge the whole show purely on that basis??
For some commentators it also how realistic that level of expectation is - we had one comment earlier along the lines of "Exhibition prices should be at least 10% less than Hattons on line price" which is borderline fantasy - that would probably mean the trader giving you a loco for less than they paid Bachmann for it!!!
Id agree with PLD there.
At an exhibition I don't want to see stall after stall of RTR stuff - I like to see those traders who sell "interesting and hard to find items".
As to the layouts I like to see ones that are different to what I'm principally interested in, its good to widen ones horizons and see continental or US prototypes or pre-grouping, O gauge etc Though it is always good to know there will be at least one layout that fits my interests; at least then I know its worth the trip :)
Id also like at least most of the exhibits to be to as good a standard all round as anything I can do - After all I am paying to get in :D
Quote from: scruff on August 28, 2015, 10:39:04 PM
I think the Bachmann price fixing thing is stifling competition and making the retailers seem very underwhelming because bargain hunting is no fun any more!
Re price fixing :
wasnt it the Edward Heath Gov,, +/- maybe Wilson or Thatcher,, that outlawed Retail Price Maintainance ?
so how are BachFar getting round this ?
or is there just not enough of us to do a 'class action' or other means of matter ?
Its not really price fixing (much) :-\
Its saying that a Retailer can't offer more than a 15% discount for 12 weeks after issue of a new model.
Quote from: JasonBz on August 30, 2015, 01:13:21 AM
Its not really price fixing (much) :-\
Its saying that a Retailer can't offer more than a 15% discount for 12 weeks after issue of a new model.
Yer, not much ! ye right !! :laughabovepost:
So it's fixed (maintained- whilst the retailers are obliged on pain of death of their business, didnt the Godfather/F.F.Cuppola have something to say about this ?) at 15% for 12 weeks who's the pudsy
we put up with it cos they hold all the cards ?
If we all do an informal 'class action' of not buying anything for 12weeks nor on pre-order then wot
yer, I know, pigs might fly !!
If they are confident in, or of, their product to stand on its own merit it should not need, , , oh, I was going to bed , quiet in the back row ,,,
I would agree that it is a bit "borderline" but I also think that in the model railway market its better to have a supplier than to not have one; if someone decided the market wasn't profitable to continue supplying.
I'm not really a "Collector" type of buyer, I just get hold of any stuff that suits whatever it is that I'm doing so im not very price sensitive in that way.
Quote from: newportnobby on August 29, 2015, 09:56:21 PM
Quote from: MikeDunn on August 29, 2015, 09:21:34 PM
Quote from: newportnobby on August 29, 2015, 09:06:08 PM
Obviously I fall into that group as well :laugh:
I always thought of you as more Magenta than RiffRaff :P
Qué? ???
Rocky Horror Show, Nobby. They're the two who actually run the house while Rocky is prancing about in his suspenders.
Quote from: Pete33 on August 30, 2015, 10:27:54 AM
Quote from: newportnobby on August 29, 2015, 09:56:21 PM
Quote from: MikeDunn on August 29, 2015, 09:21:34 PM
Quote from: newportnobby on August 29, 2015, 09:06:08 PM
Obviously I fall into that group as well :laugh:
I always thought of you as more Magenta than RiffRaff :P
Qué? ???
Rocky Horror Show, Nobby. They're the two who actually run the house while Rocky is prancing about in his suspenders.
Thanks, Pete. I saw the original cast show in London all those years ago but brain fade wouldn't allow recall :-[
Back to the subject.........I do agree with Paul (PLD) about the biggest shows not really catering to those looking for bargains but I still maintain the smaller shows organised by Model Railway Clubs can be a great source of bargains - particularly from their Club second hand stall.
Whichever show you attend, if you buy a loco please ask one of the layout owners to run it for you such that, if there's a problem, you can immediately take it back whence it was bought.
Sorry to sound miserable but people coming along asking you to test their just purchased loco while you are concentrating on operating your layout can be a bad thing.
This does depend on circumstances. If there is nobody around so I am not trying to put on a show for anyone then I am more than happy to test other peoples locos. If there are paying customers watching my layout being run then it is wrong to stop this to test a loco. Many large exhibitions, such as the Warley NEC show, have a test track stand.
I appreciate what you're saying, Chris, and wouldn't dream of interrupting anyone who is busy but there are opportunities to ask the question nicely (and it always helps if the operators are forum members or at least known to me ;))
Bealman from Oz bought a Farish Deltic at the Wigan show and we found somewhere for it to be tested as it would have been a great shame for him to get home and find any faults.
Quote from: newportnobby on August 30, 2015, 12:05:24 PM
Bealman from Oz bought a Farish Deltic at the Wigan show and we found somewhere for it to be tested as it would have been a great shame for him to get home and find any faults.
It's exactly this issue that stops be buying electronic stock at shows - will they / won't they work ... OK, not as much of a risk from the box shifters (well, apart from getting a known-iffy loco !) but from smaller retailers ... :hmmm: And no, I don't use the 'Bay for that either. Carriages / wagons I'm more relaxed on.
Much prefer to buy my locos from my local retailer (and his show prices are almost always the same as his retail prices ! But with the advantage the shop has a track to ensure running is OK).
I think that exhibitions should be free, and that there should be a collection box prominently positioned by each layout.
That would provide a way of measuring the success of each layout, and maybe we could have a ranking system, like for tennis players ?
Best regards,
Joe
(tongue in cheek - maybe)
Well, that's one way to ensure no exhibitions happen in future ... :goggleeyes:
Quote from: joe cassidy on August 30, 2015, 12:59:35 PM
I think that exhibitions should be free, and that there should be a collection box prominently positioned by each layout.
That would provide a way of measuring the success of each layout, and maybe we could have a ranking system, like for tennis players ?
Best regards,
Joe
The box for my layout would soon clog up with old buttons and cobwebs :'(
(tongue in cheek - maybe)
Paul, I'll probably never get the chance to see your layout in the flesh but, based on what I've seen on here and elsewhere, it's definitely worth at least the price of a pint of Guiness per look :)
Best regards,
Joe
Quote from: joe cassidy on August 30, 2015, 12:59:35 PM
I think that exhibitions should be free, and that there should be a collection box prominently positioned by each layout.
That would provide a way of measuring the success of each layout, and maybe we could have a ranking system, like for tennis players ?
Best regards,
Joe
(tongue in cheek - maybe)
I think it's high time for professionalization within the exhibition community, which should be overseen by an official body known as the "
Railway InVestigation (Exhibition Targetted) COmmittee - Utilization Nitpicking Team (Exhibition-Related) Subcommittee" (snappy acronym to be decided) who would vet all potential exhibition layouts according to standardized criteria and publish these as national league tables. This would enable exhibition planners and visitors alike to ensure they can select the creme-de-la-creme of layouts and be sure that if e.g. they peered through the windows of a signal box of a layout ostensibly portraying a wet Monday in April 1982 that they wouldn't see the signalman's breakfast portrayed as a "to-go" from Pret-a-Manger.
Quote from: joe cassidy on August 30, 2015, 02:40:44 PM
Paul, I'll probably never get the chance to see your layout in the flesh but, based on what I've seen on here and elsewhere, it's definitely worth at least the price of a pint of Guiness per look :)
How many pints are needed for the elephants to appear?
Quote from: Chris m on August 30, 2015, 12:01:06 PM
Sorry to sound miserable but people coming along asking you to test their just purchased loco while you are concentrating on operating your layout can be a bad thing.
This does depend on circumstances. If there is nobody around so I am not trying to put on a show for anyone then I am more than happy to test other peoples locos. If there are paying customers watching my layout being run then it is wrong to stop this to test a loco. Many large exhibitions, such as the Warley NEC show, have a test track stand.
I have only done this once, asked nicely, and the exhibitors did not object, even though there were quite a few watching. It helped (maybe) that the two locos were maroon Warships and the layout a late 1950s WR one, so they fitted right in.
But yes, buying a loco at a show is a bit of a gamble, but any more so than buying by mail order? After all, if the stock is new then you could just return it in the usual way if found to be faulty.
Quote from: railsquid on August 30, 2015, 04:04:53 PM
I think it's high time for professionalization within the exhibition community, which should be overseen by an official body known as the "Railway InVestigation (Exhibition Targetted) COmmittee - Utilization Nitpicking Team (Exhibition-Related) Subcommittee" (snappy acronym to be decided) who would vet all potential exhibition layouts according to standardized criteria and publish these as national league tables.
Now, let's see - an acronym for them :hmmm:
R. I. V. E. T. Co. U. N. T. E. R. S. :confused2:
:worried: Still can't think of one - sorry. :no:
Hi, :laughabovepost: OK just my personal thoughts for what its worth. This morning went to the model rail show in Hayle (Cornwall) and although its only 10 minuets walk from home I would have gladly travelled 100 miles. In total contrast visited the BRM show at Ally Pally in June & found it hard work because of the sheer numbers present. I will visit large shows in the future but will learn to plan better especially if it involves a 300 mile journey. As ever just my personal observations.
regards Derek.
Quote from: D1042 Western Princess on August 30, 2015, 05:18:51 PM
But yes, buying a loco at a show is a bit of a gamble, but any more so than buying by mail order?
Also known as RTR - "Ready to Repair" or "Ready to Return".
Quote from: martink on August 30, 2015, 06:47:37 PM
Quote from: D1042 Western Princess on August 30, 2015, 05:18:51 PM
But yes, buying a loco at a show is a bit of a gamble, but any more so than buying by mail order?
Also known as RTR - "Ready to Repair" or "Ready to Return".
:laughabovepost: :smiley-laughing:
It's not just me that's fallen foul of this then!
Andy
Having attended the Hayle Model rail Show on Saturday and Sunday (where I displayed Trepol Bay and Mrs PP showed Descanso Farm), I think it's worthwhile giving an exhibitor's view.
First off, we had a really , really good time but it is VERY hard work. This was, I think, my 7th show as an exhibitor,
On Friday we had to dismantle both layouts , get them into our VW camper to arrive at Hayle for 4pm.
It took two hours to set up and get everything running happily.
7pm home to cook evening meal.
Sat morning, leave home at 8-30 to arrive 9-00 to set out stock and check running.
10-00 - Public start coming in. On feet answering questions and running trains till 5-00 (No break).
Home to cook evening meal.
Sunday. Up and arrive Hayle at 9-30 to check and clean track.
10-00 Public start coming in (very busy).
On feet continuously till 4-00.
4-00 dismantle layouts and get home for 5-15. Cook Evening meal.
We are completely exhausted but we had a brilliant time. It was so good to talk to people who really appreciated seeing the layouts and who offered genuine encouragement. Also great to mingle with fellow modellers.
I can't over emphasise how hard it is to keep a layout running and to talk to the public. It is great to be able to give encouragement to those who are just starting out in the hobby or are struggling to get a layout started.
And great to see the smiles on the faces of children who are absolutely fascinated by miniature railways.
I can only say that Model rail Shows are a great advert for our hobby and should be encouraged.
We had a lovely time but....just remember, for the exhibitors, it is a very tiring 2 or 3 days.
port perran
You too sir, you too.!! A very good precis' of the 'joys of model railway exhibitions'. Thank you. I agree completely about the 'state of exhaustion; you refer-to'; it very quietly creeps up on one, and I have found that by 1200 on the last day, speaking to ANY member of the public requires a huge effort; and yet there are still four hours to go.... AAAARGH, doesn't even begin to cover it. Yet, somehow, the time does go past until, eventually, it's all over - until the next exhibition, when we quite happily repeat the process , and again, and again and... This perhaps indicates that MR exhibitors are Masochists. At times, one does wonder :)
I agree that is very, very hard to both run a layout and talk, which is the main reason why my layouts tend to be 'single track, single train' operations; there is simply NO time to shunt or 'divert'; the public want to know so much and time is very, very short (seriously; I think you will know what I am saying). Observation suggests that, on average (and at most), we have 10 minutes to 'persuade' and 'peddle' our hobby, and that it is never, ever possible to speak to absolutely everyone who comes past. One can but hope that those who DO go past will come back. Sometimes they do...
Finally, aside from those who actually do talk (the majority of our 'client'), there are always the quiet ones; those who just look, say nothing,will frequently stand to one side for hours observing, saying nothing, never engaging in conversation, yet at the end of their 'watching' will sometimes proffer a very quiet 'Thank you' before disappearing back where they came from. Over the years (and a lot of exhibitions), I've had many do that (of all ages BTW, and predominantly male), and find that I can never , ever know what they are thinking. Memories? Wishfullness? One can never know of course, and I can only hope that what I have done has had some sort of positive effect. THOSE are the ones who bother me the most, and after its all over for the day, I do tend to ask myself 'Did I help 'somehow', without ever knowing the answer. No doubt you have experienced similar situations.
Again, thanks, you summarised the exhibitors' experiences well.
Roll-on the next one :) :) (in my case, a three-day session in October).
Port Perran knocks the nail on the head. It's tiring and very enjoyable exhibiting a layout! I've only been doing it the last couple of years and the shows have varied from local club shows, charity events to TINGS and BRM at Peterborough.
I've been inspired at local shows, even if it's just one or two layouts that have an interesting plan, or good scenic treatment, regardless of era or country modelled. I often wonder if the exhibitors spend more than the general public with the traders at some of these. I know I've found the odd bargain or essential item, even if it's just adding another secondhand MGR wagon to the rake or a secondhand book I rarely come home empty handed. They vary on professionalism but no doubt suffer from budget constraints and available venues. On the whole they offer something to the public they're aiming at and the interested modeller.
Some of the bigger shows are different. Even given the variety of layouts there will still only probably be up to 3 I'll really like which I regard as fair enough, because I'm fussy like that. That's just me. Somewhere like TINGS will provide scratch building items and kits you rarely get elsewhere, which is great for what I need, (I also go to Telford for the O gauge Gulidex show for the same reason, September is an expensive month), although TINGS compared to Guildex can still be a hellishly hot cowshed if the weather is good! Other large shows I mostly avoid as a customer, as they're too push and shove and trader heavy and I find I don't really enjoy them as a paying customer. I haven't been to Ally Pally or Warley in years.
What I enjoy as an exhibitor is putting on a good show for the paying public, running prototypically but keeping trains moving, (yes, that's a compromise) and talking to the public about the layouts I help with and getting them involved. On PostModN66's layouts Deansmoor and Lofthole Oil Terminal we often have kids stay for ages, and once dragged away they even come back. With my effort Horseblock Lane at our last exhibition we had the middle aged equivalent stick for quite a while. He asked lots of questions about construction, detailing and operation and all were answered and I hope we helped him have a go at doing something on his own layout when he got home.
There is rarely anything new under the sun in railway modelling, just a renewed way of looking at what our predecessors have done with today's kit. But keeping it fresh and enthusing for another generation over a weekend show for petrol money and lunch takes stamina and leaves you with a warm glow, providing the CDU doesn't blow up and not too much needs repairing afterwards....
Sorry, I've gone on a bit. Time to take to the bunker I fear! :o
Quote from: Cooper on August 31, 2015, 09:04:41 AM
Telford for the O gauge Gulidex show
Talking of which the Group that I recently joined are taking a large roundy-roundy with a crew of 10.
A minimum of 3 are required on Group nights to operate the layout, 2 on controllers and 1 doing the signals which are fully interlocked. However for Telford 2 additional souls in addition to the signalman will be "out front" to answer questions.
And of course there's all the loading and unloading of the 7 ton lorry. Don't know how long each take but there's a lot of this and that to be moved. Getting the stock on the layout takes a huge amount of time as well, boy am I glad I'm a N gauger!
Even with two complete crews of 5 it'll be tough for my colleagues to get through the weekend. Lessons are bound to be learned and, if necessary, improvements made for Warley in 2017.
Nigel
Quote from: Komata on August 31, 2015, 04:51:35 AM
THOSE are the ones who bother me the most, and after its all over for the day, I do tend to ask myself 'Did I help 'somehow', without ever knowing the answer. No doubt you have experienced similar situations.
I can speak as one of the quiet ones. As a beginner, I am a little wary of asking stupid questions. Also, I am at the stage where I learn a lot simply by "standing and staring" - seeing how the modelling is done. So, if someone is watching the layout, rather than quickly moving away, then you almost certainly are helping.
Thanks Steve.
I always try to engage the quiet watchers in conversation if I can (and there are often several of these at exhibitions who will stand and look for a long time). Once I've done that , people are usually happy to start chatting and asking questions. My opening line is generally, "Do you have a layout yourself?".
Quote from: Steve Brassett on September 03, 2015, 09:55:09 AM
Quote from: Komata on August 31, 2015, 04:51:35 AM
THOSE are the ones who bother me the most, and after its all over for the day, I do tend to ask myself 'Did I help 'somehow', without ever knowing the answer. No doubt you have experienced similar situations.
I can speak as one of the quiet ones. As a beginner, I am a little wary of asking stupid questions. Also, I am at the stage where I learn a lot simply by "standing and staring" - seeing how the modelling is done. So, if someone is watching the layout, rather than quickly moving away, then you almost certainly are helping.
Hi Steve,
I wouldn't worry about the stupid questions too much.....you get plenty of them from members of the general public anyway, so as a modeller you would be ahead of the pack! I would hope to be able to gauge level of (model)railway knowledge and give an accordingly helpful answer.
As you are in Welwyn you might well attend an exhibition where (Neal) Cooper or I are exhibiting one of our three layouts - please say "hello", it's great to put a face to a name (You might already have done so.....if so, I hope we were friendly!)
I am always open to people getting involved in operation too to some degree; ironically though it is generally those with less knowledge that are most up for helping!
Cheers Jon :)
Quote from: Steve Brassett on September 03, 2015, 09:55:09 AM
I can speak as one of the quiet ones. As a beginner, I am a little wary of asking stupid questions. Also, I am at the stage where I learn a lot simply by "standing and staring" - seeing how the modelling is done. So, if someone is watching the layout, rather than quickly moving away, then you almost certainly are helping.
Steve,
There is no such thing as a 'stupid question' if you don't know the answer to it. I'm sure none of us mind answering the same question again and again, as long as it's not coming from the same person time after time :P :P
You should be able to ask the Layout Operators any question you like and, hopefully, you'll get an answer. Well you will from me any way.
So don't be afraid to ask any question you like, remember we all started in the same position you are now and have probably asked the very same question you are afraid to ask.
Regards
Neal.
Quote from: Steve Brassett on September 03, 2015, 09:55:09 AM
I can speak as one of the quiet ones. As a beginner, I am a little wary of asking stupid questions. Also, I am at the stage where I learn a lot simply by "standing and staring" - seeing how the modelling is done. So, if someone is watching the layout, rather than quickly moving away, then you almost certainly are helping.
Or like me (another quiet one) you can ask all your stupid questions here instead. Goodness knows I've certainly done that enough times over the past two years.
Quote from: PostModN66 on September 03, 2015, 12:40:52 PM
As you are in Welwyn you might well attend an exhibition where (Neal) Cooper or I are exhibiting one of our three layouts - please say "hello", it's great to put a face to a name (You might already have done so.....if so, I hope we were friendly!)
I went to the De Havilland exhibition in April and had a chat with the operator of Masbury, and he was very friendly. I think I'll have the courage to ask more next time.
Quote from: Steve Brassett on September 03, 2015, 09:55:09 AM
As a beginner, I am a little wary of asking stupid questions.
Steve, even the most expert of us (and I don't for a second consider myself amongst their number) were at one time a raw 'beginner asking stupid questions'. Remember, there are no stupid questions, only stupid replies.
Any hobby/job where you can learn it all in a week probably isn't worth the trouble of learning it.
Good luck with your new layout.
Greg.
The 'local' exhibition schedule is getting a bit frantic.......
Sept 5/6th Blackburn
Sept 19/20th Blackpool
Sept 20th Macron Stadium Toy & Train fair
Sept 26/27th Leigh
Oct 3/4th Wigan
Oct 17th Bamber Bridge Meet Up :D
Oct 18th Warrington
Oct 24/25th Hazel Grove
Nov 1st Macron Stadium Toy & Train fair
Nov 7/8th Southport
Nov 14/15th Colne
At this rate I'll wear out the replacement hip I had last year :worried:
That is a bit frantic. Will you be attending them all Mick?
We get about 7 a year within a 60 mile radius !
Just been to the Andover show with my five year old. He was given the chance to run trains on three layouts and the exhibitors we are very chatty. Good family show. Saw true excellent Seen Models stand too, they look brilliant. Also met some other n gauge society members so a good trip and worth a visit if your are free.
Quote from: port perran on September 05, 2015, 01:12:41 PM
That is a bit frantic. Will you be attending them all Mick?
That's the intention, Martin. I did them all last year and always try to support our local shows (within a 40-50 mile radius) with some longer distance ones thrown in. This calendar congestion is one of the reasons for me not going to TINGS, though :(
Quote from: newportnobby on September 05, 2015, 03:58:50 PM
Quote from: port perran on September 05, 2015, 01:12:41 PM
That is a bit frantic. Will you be attending them all Mick?
That's the intention, Martin. I did them all last year and always try to support our local shows (within a 40-50 mile radius) with some longer distance ones thrown in. This calendar congestion is one of the reasons for me not going to TINGS, though :(
I think I may go to Leigh, not sure about Wigan though
Quote from: paulprice on September 05, 2015, 04:05:41 PM
Quote from: newportnobby on September 05, 2015, 03:58:50 PM
Quote from: port perran on September 05, 2015, 01:12:41 PM
That is a bit frantic. Will you be attending them all Mick?
That's the intention, Martin. I did them all last year and always try to support our local shows (within a 40-50 mile radius) with some longer distance ones thrown in. This calendar congestion is one of the reasons for me not going to TINGS, though :(
I think I may go to Leigh, not sure about Wigan though
Wigan is the largest show in the area and this year will feature (N Gauge) Burghead, Norgate, Bodmin, Collerton and The Circle Line with the excellent 2mmFS Fence Houses as well :thumbsup:
I know but parking is not cheap at Wigan, its bad enough when I go to watch the mighty Warriors
Quote from: paulprice on September 05, 2015, 04:15:59 PM
I know but parking is not cheap at Wigan, its bad enough when I go to watch the mighty Warriors
OK - I always get there early by buying my ticket in advance but I've never had a problem parking for free opposite the venue :no:
I posted this in a show review but not everyone reads them so, on the subject of whether you can get a bargain at a show, how about this.................
(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/17/thumb_29482.JPG) (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=29482)
Yep - £450. No, it's not DCC and full sound fitted. According to the guy on the trade stand involved "That's what everybody sells them for" :smiley-laughing:
I hope he still has it on the day he retires >:D
Having been out of the forum for some weeks following computer problems I've just come to this thread. To put me in context, I'm a regular punter at most local and some regional shows, a Warley competition judge, an exhibitor with two award-winning N-gauge layouts (Hawthorn Dene, Railway Modeller August 2015, and Furtwangen Ost), and most recently exhibition manager for the South Notts show (next one April 16/17 next year at Cotgrave Welfare, Notts).
Taking a layout to a show needs three consecutive full days (four for a three-day show) for the show itself including getting loaded, getting there and getting set up. It takes two hours just to put the trains on Hawthorn dene and make sure they run once round without derailing. It will also involve at least two days making sure that the locos for the layout are in tip-top condition and all rolling stock wheels are clean- plus time and expense on any locos that are casualties during the show. Each loco runs about half to three-quarters of a mile over a weekend. Furtwangen's trams do more. The expenses I ask for almost cover my fuel, less-so as I pay for any operators who need to use their cars or the train out of that.
For much of the time both my layouts have someone out front specifically to talk to people. Indeed people who have seen us before run a mile to avoid Jim's guided tour (joking). I operate from the end of the layout as far as possible as it is easier to talk round than over the layout.
From a show manager's point of view I'm aware that our club needs to make some money from the show in order to keep subs down to a level members can afford. We are lucky that our hall will cost us less than £500 next year- that is the first 100 paying punters to cover the venue. Ours is cheaper than most. There are medium-sized shows paying TEN TIMES that and more for their halls. Free shows, no chance. Someone has to pay the hall hire.
Our traders all made a loss last year- think of that. Despite the loss all are supporting us next year. You ask why small shows don't get much in the way of specialists. Until I have DOUBLED our footfall I doubt if most of the specialists I would love to invite would make enough to cover their fuel, let alone pay their staff. Despite that we have next year Book Law publications, local shops Sherwood Models, Malc's Models and Brickyard Models, with newly added Access Models of Newark majoring on paints, glues, and the sort of bits we all need to get the layout moving, and three local specialist traders.
For a local show the selection of layouts isn't always easy. There are some superb layouts out there we just can't afford. Yet we have next year a new layout with scenics by Trevor Webster and team, the sequel to Lagganmoor, two new OO layouts and 13 others in O, OO, N and two different narrow gauges. There is also an interactive war gaming demo.
Please don't ignore those shows you can do in a half-day. Clubs need you to be there to support their traders and to help the club continue.
Les
PS
I've reduced our admission to £5 this year, and had 8000 fliers printed, each with a voucher for another £1 off. There will be a house-to-house leaflet drop of these. I want those extra specialist traders, and am trying my hardest to get the footfall up so they can afford us.
PPS sorry about the blatant plug :D
PPPS-
South Notts show next year has 17 layouts- one German N, one US narrow gauge, one US standard gauge, one Welsh narrow gauge, one pre-grouping GWR, one based on the ex- Great Central line in the Nottingham Suburbs, a blue-period Scottish one, plus the usual mix right up to Thomas the Tank Engine.
I note the OP is from Nottingham. Come along and see us- despite rumours Cotgrave isn't bandit country. You can even get a bus every 20 minutes from Broad Marsh and Nottingham station right to the door of the venue!
Even more blatant a plug. :D :D
Les
Hi Les, if you mean "OP" as "Original Poster", that would be me! I already attend Cotgrave show most years anyway.
Yours sounds like a great show! I'll be there.
Andy
;)
Quote from: texhorse on September 22, 2015, 06:54:13 AM
Hi Les, if you mean "OP" as "Original Poster", that would be me! I already attend Cotgrave show most years anyway.
Yours sounds like a great show! I'll be there.
Andy
;)
Many thanks for the compliment- make sure you pick up a flier and get your £1 off....
Les
Well to try and make the operating crew on Foster Street more visually attractive to the paying public (Personally I'm a total Adonis but the rest of the team are a bunch of.......lets just say distinctive :angel:) I have am going to make them wear these, lets just hope the dribbled egg stains wont be so visible.
(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/16/thumb_30060.jpg) (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=30060)
Very smart but where's the NGF logo? :)
Quote from: Caz on October 04, 2015, 12:12:49 PM
Very smart but where's the NGF logo? :)
Maybe they're planning to reproduce it with the dribbled egg-stain?
Quote from: Caz on October 04, 2015, 12:12:49 PM
Very smart but where's the NGF logo? :)
That's to be printed on the cravats.........
Quote from: railsquid on October 04, 2015, 12:17:49 PM
Quote from: Caz on October 04, 2015, 12:12:49 PM
Very smart but where's the NGF logo? :)
Maybe they're planning to reproduce it with the dribbled egg-stain?
You guessed right, we are a classy bunch
I feel exhibition layouts should be a reasonable standard. After all the public is paying to see them.
I've seen a few which should not be exhibited.
Dirty track, poor points, or dodgy locos are things anyone can put together. The illusion is shattered if the 0-5-0 from the sky descends every 20 seconds to nudge things around. I appreciate things can go wrong on the day, but some layouts were clearly never up to scratch in the first place.
Likewise operators running stuff round in a circle at breakneck speeds or chinwagging to mates, ignoring the layout, when a crowd is watching, are things to be avoided.
Just think of the crowd as your clients. I know many exhibitors only get paid expenses, if even that, but the public have still payed to see a show, and that should be respected.
Which exhibition were you at this weekend to raise that post Firefox? Hope you didn't see us at Shoeburyness to provoke that! ;) In the hall with live steam enhancing the atmosphere we had our moments over the weekend, but think we were providing a good show for most of the 'clients' that stopped to look.
[smg id=32281]
As you can see, we were mobbed! (Actually, that was a quiet moment in the last 10 minutes. Honest!)
I haven't been to any live exhibitions for a few years, so you are safe ;)
Seen some recent dodgy ones on You Tube though.
I'm not naming any names, it would be a bit rude and discouraging to say directly, but hopefully some people may read this and indirectly think about improving their show :beers:
Quote from: Firefox on November 24, 2015, 03:23:36 PM
I feel exhibition layouts should be a reasonable standard. After all the public is paying to see them.
I've seen a few which should not be exhibited.
Quote from: Firefox on November 24, 2015, 05:00:36 PM
I haven't been to any live exhibitions for a few years, so you are safe ;)
Seen some recent dodgy ones on You Tube though.
Sorry - but I fail to see how you can complain about the state of Exhibition layouts when you then admit
you haven't been to any Exhibitions for some years ??? You're making an unfair and uninformed remark based on seeing some videos on the 'net and not personal experience of said layouts. :no:
By all means, make your comments
but base them on personal experience !
Mike
I've been to loads of exhibitions in the past, so have plenty of experience. Do you feel the standard has improved massively in the last 5 years such that I'm missing the new age of modelling ;)
Quote from: Firefox on November 24, 2015, 05:43:25 PM
I've been to loads of exhibitions in the past, so have plenty of experience. Do you feel the standard has improved massively in the last 5 years such that I'm missing the new age of modelling ;)
Yes, in general it has improved over the last 5-10 years.
Ok then, I shall take on board what you've said, and seek out some fresh shows in the coming months :D
I've heard a vague rumour there's a little one somewhere in Birmingham this weekend that may have a layout or two visiting ;)
Now that Exhibition is one I find to be just to much to take in....
Quote from: MikeDunn on November 24, 2015, 09:51:24 PM
I've heard a vague rumour there's a little one somewhere in Birmingham this weekend that may have a layout or two visiting ;)
Being pedantic the NEC is in Solihull not Birmingham. Same applies to Birmingham Airport and Birmingham International. I think Solihull are fairly happy though because they get all the business rates.
One comment about layout videos on YouTube.
I've uploaded videos where the train is running beautifully smoothly, only to find the video shows it jerking.
How many times have you tried to photograph a moving object with a pocket digital camera and missed due to the calculation time between pressing the shutter and the photo being taken? It never happened with old-fashioned cameras that used film.
The cheap digital cameras do take time to calculate the exposure and focus. That means a frame is often repeated while the camera recalculates. Hence jerky videos.
That of course still doesn't cover poor operators. "You can't get the staff" applies to any exhibition layout - regular operators become unavailable at short notice and substitutes aren't necessarily as competent.
I attend 15 to 20 shows a year, and standards are improving steadily.
Les
I'm lucky to get to one every ten years where I live :envy:
Nobody want to see my layout :'(
I have been thinking about recent exhibitions and the standard of the layouts. The first thing I have to say is that there are many layouts with exquisite modelling to a very high standard and a lot of work has been done to get them to be so. I fully appreciate this as I have my own exhibition layout and I would say I am an average modeller, not a great one. I readily admit that lot of the modelling I see is to a better standard than I could do.
So why start a new thread on this subject? Well whilst the quality of stock and scenery has improved greatly over the last 30 years or so, layout design seems to have remained largely static. It is just my opinion, and others may well disagree, but the vast majority of layouts start with flat baseboards, track is then laid (often filling as much baseboard space as possible) and then some scenery is built up round the edge. This spoils it for me no matter how good the modelling may be. In real life land is very rarely flat and, according to the gradient profiles, neither is rail line. Goods yards are usually level but often at a different height to the main line which is usually on a gradient. Same applies to motive power depots etc. For an example still in use today take a look at Tysley. Sometimes layouts have a river or such but created by just a short dip in an otherwise flat board.
This could of course just be something that bugs me and nobody else but I would like to see more thought put into layout planning to make a railway look like it has been forged through the landscape rather than a bit of scenery added after the track was laid. There are notable exceptions but only a small number.
Other things that can spoil an otherwise great layout, in my opinion, are
1. Track plans that give no thought to prototype practice, although of course there will always be a need for compromise because we simple could fit in everything that real railways have.
2. Poor operation. Operators and stock should be well tested before going to an exhibition. Things can and will go wrong on the day but it is clear that a fair few layouts (and operators) have not been debugged before a show. Also regular running of trains is something to be aimed for. One layout last weekend had 8 operators but only seemed to be able to make on train movement every couple of minutes.
3. Trying to fix broken locos during the exhibition. I saw examples of locos trying to be repaired on the running tracks on two different exhibits. If a loco stops working at a show put it back in the box and fix it later.
4. Perhaps controversially, unpainted locos and incomplete layouts. Some may like to see a loco still in brass being used but personally I just see it as something not ready to be used on a layout. A layout under construction is fine if it is at an exhibition for the purpose of the builders discussing building layouts with visitors. A layout that isn't complete but is being run normally is simply one that is not ready to be exhibited.
It is important that we don't have any insults or anger on this topic. I'm just stating an opinion with reasoning and wonder what others think? I certainly wouldn't point a stick at anyone and, like I say, I fully appreciate the work that has been done and don't want to appear to be putting down anyone's efforts.Its about reasoned discussion about what is important to paying visitors and what isn't. Also this is not about telling anyone how they should build a layout, I'm just saying what is important to me and accepting that others will have different views. For instance I use code 80 track which I know many would say is either naff or even unacceptable for an exhibition layout.
This old chestnut certainly comes up on here from time to time and is certain to divide opinions.
We all want something different from exhibitions.
Personally, I don't really care about the operation of the layout. I like to see inventive scenery with trains running through it. I don't like long drawn out laborious shunting movements and I never worry whether points are operated manually or electrically. But that's just me.
I agree that many layouts are too flat but I guess it depends on how much space is available. Certainly a layout on differing levels with undulating scenery looks good.
I like gradients and different levels on layouts but its all an illusion and gradients generally have to be faked.
After all a typical 1:45 gradient would mean no more than 2.5 inches on a 10 foot layout
If there are 5000 of us on this Forum, there are likely to be 5000 opinions! So these are some very personal observations.
Track plans will always involve compromise, but they can still be thought through and allow realistic operation. Perhaps stretching that for demo Hornby tinplate, 3 rail, TT , Lego etc.
I agree that railways are seldom flat and built on flat ground. But layouts can look good whatever the style the builders have adopted. And that may well reflect their own space, abilities, preferences, etc. I like to see a mix of layouts, subject to the size and nature of an exhibition.
I fully agree there should be frequent and realistic movement whatever the concept behind the design. Hence for Portpatrick Town (Fiddle Yd to Fiddle Yd) I run a sequence derived from typical daily timetable in the area for the 50s. It takes 40-60 minutes to run it through, depending on whether there are 2 or 3 of us operating and the experience of the operators. If, as a punter, I have the grandsons with me action is best delivered by running trains, whether continuous or end to end . For myself a layout shunted in a realistic and meaningful way is equally absorbing.
While I would not want to see a majority of incomplete layouts/stock, I personally am happy to see a few, esp in larger shows. This can remind us all that layouts and stock take time to build . And provide a different take in starting conversations. Larger show in particular are well placed to show the public how work might progress as well as the "finished" product. That to me is part of what exhibitions are about. As a fairly regular attender at shows, it is then good to see layouts develop on future showings.
I fully agree dodgy stock - usually locos - should be taken out of service and repaired at home. I always bring spares for Portpatrick, and do sometimes have to use some of them. Going home with a repair/maintenance list! One thing I could not avoid was 2 years ago, being under the Rewley Rd roof at Quainton Road. The heat of the sun above the glass was such that the turntable distorted and would not turn properly. From lunch time on Day 1, all terminating locals ran with tank engines of which I had brought plenty!
Now for some of the other 4997 views?
I was at the Leamington and Warwick Model Rail Society (or something like that) exhibition yesterday. I don't think I spotted any bad layouts and the show organisers did a great job of collecting a variety of layouts to suit all tastes. Apart from a couple of Thomas the Tank Engine layouts each layout had the feel of a real place, even if it was a fictitious location. Only two were works in progress but both were finished enough that it didn't detract from the overall experience; one was an N gauge layout that the club has shown evolving for several years. It is nice to be reminded that exhibition layouts don't just appear in their completed state but take time to come together.
As far as operation goes, I find I get bored by layouts where it is just trains running through the scenery - no matter how good they are. I like to see a mix of operation including shunting. My perception is that you seldom see engine changes or through coaches being added/removed on exhibition layouts, which seems like a shame. I also like to see gentle starts and stops, nothing shatters the illusion quite like seeing a big loco and long train stop on a sixpence or take off like a startled hare.
Sometimes a little 'wow' factor helps too (as long as it is prototypical), like the working wagon lifts on a P4 model of Birmingham Moor St or self-propelled wagons representing capstan shunting on a layout set in Leicestershire. It is nice to see things that I wouldn't have thought of doing.
I agree about replacing locos that won't run properly. I've only exhibited once but I tested and serviced my stock before and anything that ran poorly on the day was immediately substituted. A rule that applied equally to stock that wouldn't stay coupled.
I was at Telford recently and was very surprised to see the detail on the n gauge layouts was better than some 00 gauge. This demonstrated to me the detail to which us miniature modellers go to and which other scales do not. For a veiwer I like to see completed layouts and weathered stock.
There was a part complete layout at Stafford recently and it was clearly unfinished as opposed to not finished off and it was good to see the undressed base board and how the order of the build has progressed.
my layout is too flat. it's not an exhibition layout though. like a lot of people i started with a flat board as didn't know there was another way.
I think it's fair enough to exhibit a range of layouts that shows a range of modelling skill in creating them. there is no point being too elitist. beginners should get a chance to show their layouts at exhibitions too!
I think organisers just have to get a balance. a few beginners layouts, a few intermediate, but probably most should be of a higher standard because after all people have paid to get in so want to see at least some outstanding layouts.
Tim
FWIW, my few cents (no particular order BTW):
Despite what others may believe, when at exhibitions, we are 'entertainers' and as such no different to any of those appearing on Blackpool Pier or at the Royal albert Hall. Our job is to 'entertain' and give the paying public a 'show'; they've paid good money for the privilege!!
As a result, exhibitors we are there to present our 'best' to the public. Anything less is not acceptable.
When presenting a layout to the public (since they are, as already noted, paying for the 'privilege' of being entertained by me), 'completeness' is essential. A 'work in progress' sign 'will' be tolerated, but only at one exhibition. If it returns in the same state at the next one in the same locality, then forget about even going.
Humour is a great distractant!!!
A 'story line' is essential.
Exhibitions are not places for operators to have stand-up rows about 'operating procedures' and 'methods'. (Don't ask; it was very embarrassing, and no, I wasn't personally involved).
Dinosaurs are essential (Hunting them keeps the kids occupied and gives the parents time to look at the layout which is before them).
Shunting / switching is an absolute waste of time. The public don't care - they want to see trains (any trains) moving.
Timetable and 'prototype' operation , means zilch to the viewing public. Again, they don't care and only want to see trains running.
Except to the rivet counters, 'accurate' train colours / consists mean little to the general viewer. A 'blue train is a blue train, a red one is a red one. They won't get involved in discussions about Mk 1 carriages or Sulzer diesels. They SIMPLY DON'T CARE!!
Operator interaction with the public is absolutely essential; it's the only chance we get to present the case for our hobby.
Pretest EVERYTHING repeatedly before the exhibition day. if it doesn't work, don't take it with you.
ALWAYS have at least one backup locomotive and controller / transformer WITH you - not back at the motel/ hotel.
Operator 'enthusiasm' goes a long way to promoting the hobby. At times it is noticeably absent. Missed opportunities etc...
ALWAYS assume that, at the exhibition, 'something' will fail and be very grateful when its doesn't!!
'Gimmicks' don't work, and 'risque' is very, very, risky!! Best to play it safe.
Photos of things on the layout when placed on an adjacent noticeboard, can be a great conversation starter as not everyone's eyesight is good with small items and as a result these photos HELP PEOPLE SEE WHAT YOU HAVE MODELLED! (Not shouting, only for emphasis)
Sometimes the trains are actually irrelevant and are merely part of the scenery, NOT the focus....
As I said, FWIW. Thanks for posing the questions.
I think Komata has pretty much hit the nail on the proverbial head.
Interaction is essential. When I've been exhibiting people seem relieved when you actually engage them in conversation. My usual starter is "Do you have a layout at all?" It is surprising how that generally opens up a conversation.
I also truly believe that people will stop at the layouts they want to see and only glance at others. Much as at an exhibition of paintings, some people will stand and admire one painting for ages then walk past the next because it's not their "cup of tea". The same applies at model railway shows.
However, I disagree about the dinosaurs ! I have two oversized tortoises - kids love looking for them.
At a Christmas show a couple of years back I sent a train around to the front of the layout with a chocolate in an open wagon every time a small child was present. They loved it (as did some of the grown ups).
Hello,
I agree with many of the views expressed, one of the things we forget is that many, if not most, people at exhibitions only have a passing interest in railways - if any. I actually remember seeing the Rev W Awdry's little layout many years ago, and he explained all the shunting operations and what was going on. A bit of interaction with the public goes a long way, and makes things entertaining for the public. We need to try and get new people excited about the hobby after all, otherwise it will die off in the long run. Remember it takes many years to become a skilled modeller (40 plus in my case...), so its good for any exhibition to show a variety of skill/detail levels, and perhaps showing layouts under construction -and how about displaying some modelling actually taking place?
Regards,
Paul
It's been interesting and thought provoking to see the postings so far. The comments on interaction are useful. Also having layouts with different "skill levels" is an interesting comment. Having thought about it I can see that if every layout at a show was at the pinnacle of modelling excellence it could put folk off getting started as they could never reach that level. Much better to have some layouts where people think "I could do something like that".
FWIW: Another thought (yes, it does happen): When exhibiting, if asked 'how do I get into model trains', I NEVER mention 'N' as being 'the chosen scale above all others', but rather suggest that whatever can be purchased at the local toy shop or big box store would be a good way to start.
This is for two reasons: (A) 'N' trainsets (the usual way to start into the hobby) are almost unobtainable in NZ on a local level, and (B) The 'audience' is frequently of the 'Thomas' generation and small children simply can't handle our sized trains. Far better to get them into some model train (indeed, ANY train) than put them off completely as parents search for what cannot be found (ie, 'N' scale trainsets) and small fingers find they can't put the trains on the track anyway.
The intent is to encourage into the hobby 'by any means'; the matter of 'scale' can come later.
'Softly, softly catchee monkey' and all that...
I've seen great scenery modelled at exhibitions.
I've seen rubbish scenery at exhibitions.
I've seen fantastic operation at exhibitions.
I've seen awful operation at exhibitions.
I've seen my own layout at exhibitions.
I've seen layout owners at an exhibition are proud of what they had achieved.
I've realised that the last fact is more important than the rest.
In a general sense I think any layout at an exhibition should be well-executed, whether it is Thomas the Tank running round and round on a table top trainset or the finest of finescale replica of "somewhere" it should look as if some thought and effort has gone into its development and construction.
Just a quick observation whilst on this subject - Who decides the height of the exhibition tables ? I'm speaking from the point of view of an uncle with a train mad 4 year old nephew. I really enjoy taking him to shows and exhibitions, but have to make sure to take a step stool along so he can actually see anything !! (usually to envious glances from other parents). Of course the best view for the majority is to have the layouts at a height where you don't have every visitor bending over, and you will ever please everyone, but again, we need to promote the hobby to the next generations too.
"heights" really is a tin and a half of worms.....
Im firmly in the adult heights for adult train sets camp..
I hardly think it's realistic to expect exhibitors to build and operate their layouts at a level low enough for small children to see. The onus would be more on the exhibitors and/or parents/guardians to provide something suitable, methinks. Speaking as a parent who will probably take a young Railsquid to an exhibition some day. Good idea with the footstool.
FWIW: Where the layout is not self- supporting, standard New Zealand practice is to place layouts on top of trestle-type tables; usually those provided by the venue / hall owner and are 760 mm (2'6" approx.) above the venue floor. . The small fry seem to have no problems with this (although toddlers do tend to try and grab at moving trains as they go past), while those who are wheelchair-bound are equally appreciative.
A spin-of for the parents of small children is that by getting down to their children's level, they actually tend to see more than they otherwise would.
As I said, FWIW.
More reading for those interested in this ..........................
http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=29312.0 (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=29312.0)
[mod]Topics merged to save duplication - Thanks :thumbsup: [/mod]
Quote from: Kris on March 07, 2016, 09:31:37 PM
I've seen layout owners at an exhibition are proud of what they had achieved.
I've realised that the last fact is more important than the rest.
A very important point. Anyone who has got as far as achieving a completed, working layout has put in a lot of thought, time and emotion to get there and deserves a well done. Bearing this in mind how do you tell an exhibitor that some things could be better? Is it rude to even try even in the politest possible way?
As an exhibitor I know my layout won't win any trophies but when a visitor said "for me this is the best layout in the show" it made my weekend. People will comment on the areas and aspects of a layout that they like so I should give more thought to the areas people don't comment on as these are probably where improvements could be made. It is worth listening to what children say to their parents about your layout as they will speak with an unconstrained openness and honesty that becomes lost in adulthood.
The best complement is when an exhibition manager looks at your layout and invites you to his show. I look upon this as an honour. The exhibition manager could of course be thinking "I've got a gap to fill which is the size of this layout and the owner looks cheap".
I cant wait until the next Exhibition outing of Foster Street, it certainly acts as a focus for your modelling and makes you get a "shift on" with outstanding projects, or at least it should :-[
I must admit the comments the children make at the exhibitions are the best, we regularly run a train that has a number of Elephants on it, and at one exhibition we had a couple of Dinosaurs present to, which was very popular.
One little chap watched the layout for several minutes, counted the Elephants, and as they passed, then looked at the Dinosaurs then waited for the Elephants again and recounted them, and then stood there in deep thought. When one of the team asked him what's up he said "Those Dinosaurs must be "vegitabletraians" like me" his reasoning was that they had not eaten any Elephants, well at least not while he was watching :D :D
"vegitaletarians" - classic
Quote from: Sparks on March 08, 2016, 12:00:39 AM
Just a quick observation whilst on this subject - Who decides the height of the exhibition tables ? I'm speaking from the point of view of an uncle with a train mad 4 year old nephew. I really enjoy taking him to shows and exhibitions, but have to make sure to take a step stool along so he can actually see anything !! (usually to envious glances from other parents). Of course the best view for the majority is to have the layouts at a height where you don't have every visitor bending over, and you will ever please everyone, but again, we need to promote the hobby to the next generations too.
I decided on the height for my layout. I know that it would be too high for your nephew. It was designed to be comfortable for me to operate and use at home (where it spends almost all of it's time), and it was also designed to give a particular viewpoint for an adult of an average height. I realise that this does not suit suit everyone, particularly the young and those in wheelchairs.
The layout that I am currently (very very slowly) building will also be at a similar height. This however has got a viaduct section that will allow better viewing for those who's viewpoint is lower (it will possibly give a better impression of looking up at a train crossing a viaduct than a normal sized adult will get).
Quote from: paulprice on March 08, 2016, 07:22:17 AM
I cant wait until the next Exhibition outing of Foster Street, it certainly acts as a focus for your modelling and makes you get a "shift on" with outstanding projects, or at least it should :-[
I must admit the comments the children make at the exhibitions are the best, we regularly run a train that has a number of Elephants on it, and at one exhibition we had a couple of Dinosaurs present to, which was very popular.
One little chap watched the layout for several minutes, counted the Elephants, and as they passed, then looked at the Dinosaurs then waited for the Elephants again and recounted them, and then stood there in deep thought. When one of the team asked him what's up he said "Those Dinosaurs must be "vegitabletraians" like me" his reasoning was that they had not eaten any Elephants, well at least not while he was watching :D :D
"vegitaletarians" - classic
Isn't that cool? Great stuff. :thumbsup:
it certainly made me realise all the effort and the frustration of building the layout was well worth it
Always a very thorny subject. I must admit that I probably wouldn't be able to tell if a track plan was accurate or operationally correct and would be more interested in the scenics and stock (a bonus if they are using any Electra products :D)
My beef with some shows is the lack of space to circulate and overcrowding in some venues. I am the first to admit that I hate crowds and have found myself feeling really trapped and freaked out at some shows where you just get wedged by some exhibits. The St Albans show in the Alban Arena was horrible (though they are moving it to a better venue in Stevenage next year) and the Spalding show, although excellent, has been really wedged when I attended. By contrast, I have no problems at the bigger shows such as Ally Pally and Peterborough Arena.
Not been to Warley for some years for the above reasons...
Quote from: captainelectra on March 08, 2016, 08:25:17 AM
Not been to Warley for some years for the above reasons...
As a Warley club member I have been to both days of every Warley show. If you hate crowds Saturday is best avoided but Sunday is usually quite comfortable. Yes there are plenty of visitors but nowhere near as many as Saturday. I have to get round the hall to speak with people and I can zip round easily on Sunday whereas I kind of have to go with flow on Saturday. I also think there are less rucksacks on Sunday.
Quote from: Sparks on March 08, 2016, 12:00:39 AM
Just a quick observation whilst on this subject - Who decides the height of the exhibition tables ? I'm speaking from the point of view of an uncle with a train mad 4 year old nephew. I really enjoy taking him to shows and exhibitions, but have to make sure to take a step stool along so he can actually see anything !! (usually to envious glances from other parents). Of course the best view for the majority is to have the layouts at a height where you don't have every visitor bending over, and you will ever please everyone, but again, we need to promote the hobby to the next generations too.
Some exhibitions provide stools for little ones. Warley and Stafford do. I'm pretty sure Sutton Coldfield do as well and I am sure there are many more. Usually there is a £2 deposit which is refunded on return.
My pet hate at shows is the lack of moving trains. Some layouts have fantastic scenery, but nothing is moving. I look at it for a bit and wait to see what happens, then if nothing is moving, move on. Usually the smaller roundly layouts are more interesting as you see plenty of trains.
Going back to the OP, and being part of an exhibition managing "committee" I have to agree with him, it takes me only a few minutes to walk around our own exhbition, all too often nothing is happening, no trains are moving, there is a failure on alot of layouts for the operators to interact, only a couple if any layouts have brought a step for the younger visitors to get a view.
There is so much wrong with our hobby and (some) of those in charge, that I feel like I am banging my head against a brick wall, we have the same traders every year, the same type of layouts, you mention a layout of the month from BRM or Model Rail and they look at you with blank faces.
How can we encourage younger people to join the hobby, when those senior members are still advocating stud & probe as a means of controlling layouts.
What I want to see is a layout working how things do today, computer control etc, but we very rarely see the actual workings of a layout at exhibitions, it's all hidden away.
We always try to keep something running on Kinlet Wharf even when there is something going wrong! It might be a train running slowly or something shunting in the little yard. But you can always tell that somethings gone wrong.
The biggest annoyance for me are the layouts where nothing makes sense. A couple of years ago on 1 single layout I saw, an A4 pulling a rake of EWS, Nissan hut type steel wagons, a steamer reversing backwards coaches first, down the front of the layout at a fair old rate of knots (if they stuck a dummy 67 on the back it would have been fine), a 66 pulling a long rake of GWR 4 wheel wagons. It was a shame as the scenery work was quite good, with a southern style feel to it., but not a single piece of southern rolling stock could be seen, and every single piece of track was dead straight and parallel to the edge of the board.
Keep to one era and area and it increases the look of the layout. Obviously preserved layouts can get away with it. Throw some curves in to the track plan they give it an interesting look.
Alistair
Quote from: Graham Walters on March 08, 2016, 09:50:09 AM
How can we encourage younger people to join the hobby, when those senior members are still advocating stud & probe as a means of controlling layouts.
What I want to see is a layout working how things do today, computer control etc, but we very rarely see the actual workings of a layout at exhibitions, it's all hidden away.
Graham, it's just a hobby. In hobbies, people do what they enjoy. Give it another 30 years and everything will be run off neural nets, with the odd 'quaint' layout using antiquated DCC equipment.
But there will always be a technology curve that most of us are behind, just because we will use what we are comfortable with.
My bugbear as a visitor is not being able to see fiddle yards. For me, it's as much of the layout as the scenic part. I suppose that's the difference between a casual member of the GP who just wants to watch the trains and someone actually interested in the construction and operation of a layout.
Quote from: Yet_Another on March 08, 2016, 01:31:24 PM
Quote from: Graham Walters on March 08, 2016, 09:50:09 AM
How can we encourage younger people to join the hobby, when those senior members are still advocating stud & probe as a means of controlling layouts.
What I want to see is a layout working how things do today, computer control etc, but we very rarely see the actual workings of a layout at exhibitions, it's all hidden away.
Graham, it's just a hobby. In hobbies, people do what they enjoy. Give it another 30 years and everything will be run off neural nets, with the odd 'quaint' layout using antiquated DCC equipment.
But there will always be a technology curve that most of us are behind, just because we will use what we are comfortable with.
My bugbear as a visitor is not being able to see fiddle yards. For me, it's as much of the layout as the scenic part. I suppose that's the difference between a casual member of the GP who just wants to watch the trains and someone actually interested in the construction and operation of a layout.
A very good point Tony, and yes I agree the hobby is evolving on an annual basis, we are already seeing adverts for loco's with rechargeable battteries in them, it wont be long before that is the norm.
The issue is there are a lot of people out there who don't want to see or take these changes onboard.
Quote from: Graham Walters on March 08, 2016, 09:50:09 AM
How can we encourage younger people to join the hobby, when those senior members are still advocating stud & probe as a means of controlling layouts.
What I want to see is a layout working how things do today, computer control etc, but we very rarely see the actual workings of a layout at exhibitions, it's all hidden away.
I think there's a balance here - a well executed, maintained and planned "stud and probe" based layout can be far better than a poor DCC/computer controlled layout. I think broadly dissing the traditional control styles is unfair - they have plenty still to offer.
To first order I think the most important thing is that exhibitors come prepared - sure failures and unexpected problems occur, but too often it seems (as a viewer) that stuff wasn't planned, execution wasn't great (primarily bad baseboard track joins - seems to be a disease that affects far too many exhibition layouts in all scales) and that's why there's nothing working.
Cheers,
Alan
Quote from: Dr Al on March 08, 2016, 01:51:11 PM
Quote from: Graham Walters on March 08, 2016, 09:50:09 AM
What I want to see is a layout working how things do today, computer control etc, but we very rarely see the actual workings of a layout at exhibitions, it's all hidden away.
I think there's a balance here - a well executed, maintained and planned "stud and probe" based layout can be far better than a poor DCC/computer controlled layout. I think broadly dissing the traditional control styles is unfair - they have plenty still to offer.
Dr Al is spot on here. Frankly, for a simple layout I fail to see what's wrong with manual points and DC control. If nothing else it keeps the costs down, and one thing we all agree on is that the hobby is relatively expensive (and perhaps becoming more so).
But I'd ask Graham Walters just who the "senior members" might be? There are great modellers for sure, and some modellers who make waves in the hobby by dint of their frequent articles or appearances at exhibitions. But I can't think of any modeller whose claim to fame lies on their use of DCC or motorised points! It's all about the synthesis of modelmaking and scenery, and that ability to create a believable model of a time and place.
Cheers, NeMo
When we exhibit, we are more than happy to let people see the fiddle yard of the layout, sometimes I think its more interesting that the scenic side.
In fact I usually use this as an excuse to let someone have ago at the controls,
I don't like the all singing computer control style; it brings the operation of trains and signals/points together too much -In big railway operation they are completely separate functions and to my mind should be so on model railways.
Quote from: Only Me on March 08, 2016, 03:11:35 PM
My two pennies worth is I like making the models, be it scenery or stock, running trains bores the :censored: out of me, so that's why Tormouth runs on the computer, its also easier because of the track configuration (double to single line) to allow the computer to take the strain, points and signals interlocked so a train runs as it should and stops where it should, be that in a platform or at a signal. Of course the layout does and is regularly run in manual mode as some operators prefer this.
Great article in Model Rail by the way. Photos are superb.
I think that's the key thing, isn't it? I love making scenery, and I'm starting to enjoy scratchbuilding buildings and kit-building rolling stock. No attempt whatsoever is made to be realistic about running trains beyond putting the right sort of coaches or wagons behind the loco.
So my ongoing layout is all about handcrafting as much as I can, experimenting with gradients and connections between baseboards. But the points are manual, and control will be DC.
Yet I totally understand people finding different things interesting, and wanting to run their layouts in different ways. That's what's great about this hobby. There's no "correct" way to build a layout.
Indeed, I'd go further that the hobby needs to stress that there are lots of different aspects people can focus on. Some will want the computers and DCC and sound effects. Some will want to make things. Some will want to paint things. Some will want to dive into operations and will be happy to buy everything readymade. It's all good.
For me, the ideal exhibition will have layouts that stress different aspects. Technology, craftsmanship, aesthetics, nostalgia, fun... whatever! :NGaugersRule:
Cheers, NeMo
Quote from: Only Me on March 08, 2016, 03:11:35 PM
My two pennies worth is I like making the models, be it scenery or stock, running trains bores the :censored: out of me, so that's why Tormouth runs on the computer, its also easier because of the track configuration (double to single line) to allow the computer to take the strain, points and signals interlocked so a train runs as it should and stops where it should, be that in a platform or at a signal. Of course the layout does and is regularly run in manual mode as some operators prefer this.
Quote from: NeMo on March 08, 2016, 05:28:28 PM
It's all good.
For me, the ideal exhibition will have layouts that stress different aspects. Technology, craftsmanship, aesthetics, nostalgia, fun... whatever! :NGaugersRule:
Actually, I think there's a strong case to be made for some of these different aspects to be considered separate hobbies - eg. the depth that one can go in DCC and computer control is really divorced from building realistic scenery, and I've seen comments on the forum where people have made this observation about themselves.
But that's another discussion. And also a justification for joining a club ;)
FWIW (again): there is another aspect to this which was unintentionally alluded-to with the reference to the little boy and the dinosaurs (lovely story BTW); the matter of 'education'.
Over time, we (my wife and I) had noticed that children love to count and search for things, and decided to make use of this at the shows we attend. This would also mean that my voice would survive, as the children could do the work themselves...The vehicle in this instance was 'Six-Mile Bush' my NZN-Freelance micro layout.
We put together a series of questions relating to things seen on the layout, laminated these and put them on a display board adjacent to the layout. The questions included:
How many black and white cows can you see (seven in this instance)"
How many sheep? (Fifteen; with the qualification that they are not all in one flock; the viewer has to go searching)
How many cars can you see: (Seven; it's a busy place)
How many people are wearing blue? (Five)
There are many more, and we rotate the sheets as necessary.
There are also 'trick' questions which require the viewer to 'go search'.
The kids (and, noticeably, many adults as well) love it, and we have had some hilarious conversations over the years, as the children talk amongst themselves and decide who is correct. That in itself is an education...
Adults (from new parents to great-grans) also get really involved and I have even had a group of 20-something males on their knees searching for things on the list...
While doing-so everyone (especially children) is learning counting, learning about geography and history, and about their country.
I have also had some delightful conversations with retired people who can identify with the area I model, and these in themselves are wonderful experiences as they detail (in many cases) a way of life that has now long vanished.
Perhaps Unsurprisingly, in view of what I have related above, the area immediately around the very small layout (it only measures 2ft 6 in x 2 ft. 6 in) does tend to become somewhat crowded as a result...
And, after it all, everyone, goes away with the feeling that they have had a 'good time'; always a source of satisfaction.
As I said, FWIW; it may be useful for some... :)
Its only since the last year or so that I feel able to comment on this subject with anything other than "I like it when there is a modern image N gauge layout at a show".
I am putting in my two pence as I have now had the privilege to be "guest operator" on some layouts at a few shows, plus "Tea boy" at another.
Being the other side of the control panel was a real eye-opener. I fully agree that its nice to be able to speak to the operators at shows. However on the more complex of the layouts I have worked, that might have resulted in a "opps" moment, which would then distract from the viewing experience further.
Even the more basic layouts I have run could see a rake do two consecutive laps if I am in convo with somebody.
I guess what I am saying is; sorry to anybody who viewed a layout one day and wanted to ask about something only for the big hairy goon with his tongue sticking out in concentration to apparently ignore you. I was "learning the route" as they say. I think I would be / have been more sociable at more recent shows as I think I know what I am doing now!
Skyline2uk
Quote from: Chris m on March 07, 2016, 11:20:02 AMI have been thinking about recent exhibitions and the standard of the layouts.
Some interesting and valid points Chris, though some time some things need to be put in context...
Quote from: Chris m on March 07, 2016, 11:20:02 AM
3. Trying to fix broken locos during the exhibition.
If there is a spare body to do it, and any 'test running' needed can be done off-stage (in the fiddle yard or a dedicated test track) without interrupting the operation, I've done it and at times I've even attracted an audience interested in seeing how to maintain their locos. There's a video somewhere of me with a loco in bits in the Hoglington fiddleyard and there are more watching me than the layout next door! :-[
Quote from: Chris m on March 07, 2016, 11:20:02 AM.
4. Perhaps controversially, unpainted locos and incomplete layouts. Some may like to see a loco still in brass being used but personally I just see it as something not ready to be used on a layout. A layout under construction is fine if it is at an exhibition for the purpose of the builders discussing building layouts with visitors. A layout that isn't complete but is being run normally is simply one that is not ready to be exhibited.
I too dislike the unpainted loco (especially the ones where the same loco is seen show after show and never gets painted!), however I do like the 'work in progress' layout provided it is billed as such, and there aren't too many in the same show. I do like to see obvious progress on the layout and preferably it appear at the same show complete within a reasonable time frame.
Quote from: Chris m on March 07, 2016, 11:20:02 AMthe vast majority of layouts start with flat baseboards ... ... ... In real life land is very rarely flat and, according to the gradient profiles, neither is rail line. Goods yards are usually level but often at a different height to the main line which is usually on a gradient.
For our next layout 'Lockwood Street' (based on Cannon St Station in Hull) we can legitimately claim to be the exception to the rule on this one...
The area is very flat so a flat top baseboard is exactly the way to go. The only variations in height are man made being the gradient as the main line climbs on to the embankment and a drain...
Quote from: Sparks on March 08, 2016, 12:00:39 AM
Just a quick observation whilst on this subject - Who decides the height of the exhibition tables ? I'm speaking from the point of view of an uncle with a train mad 4 year old nephew. I really enjoy taking him to shows and exhibitions, but have to make sure to take a step stool along so he can actually see anything !! (usually to envious glances from other parents). Of course the best view for the majority is to have the layouts at a height where you don't have every visitor bending over, and you will ever please everyone, but again, we need to promote the hobby to the next generations too.
Rather inconveniently Human Beings aren't a standard height so you can't build layouts to a standard height that will suit all viewers...
That being the case the only sensible option is to build it for the comfort of the operator who has to play with it for 7 or 8 hours in a day rather than any particular sub-set of the audience who will watch it for 7-8 minutes if you are really lucky...
For the younger ones, the best option is the step-stool which many shows do now provide usually for a nominal hire charge or a returnable deposit.
Quote from: Graham Walters on March 08, 2016, 09:50:09 AM
Going back to the OP, and being part of an exhibition managing "committee" I have to agree with him, it takes me only a few minutes to walk around our own exhbition, all too often nothing is happening, no trains are moving, there is a failure on a lot of layouts for the operators to interact
Sorry Graham, but is that not as much a "failure" on the part of you and your committee in selecting and vetting of layouts for your show as the layout operators themselves? Does no-one properly view the layouts prior to inviting them? If so, and they are a disappointing as you describe, why are they invited??
Quote from: Graham Walters on March 08, 2016, 09:50:09 AMWe have the same traders every year, the same type of layouts
It is standard practice to have the same traders return every year. If you have a winning formula stick to it, if not then change it so it does work. Traders are businesses and like a high degree of certainty provided by a regular booking. If you invited traders and told them you didn't want them to return year after year, you would have very few takers...
Sorry if this next bit seems harsh; You describe yourself as a member of the exhibition management committee. - If you are as dissatisfied with your own show as you appear to be, use your influence in that position to drive change. If you feel you don't have any influence, I'd say you were not an effective member of that committee and should consider your position...
Quote from: Komata on March 07, 2016, 05:41:25 PM
Despite what others may believe, when at exhibitions, we are 'entertainers' and as such no different to any of those appearing on Blackpool Pier or at the Royal albert Hall. Our job is to 'entertain' and give the paying public a 'show'; they've paid good money for the privilege!!
As a result, exhibitors we are there to present our 'best' to the public. Anything less is not acceptable.
I agree with the last line to some extent but what is 'best' will depend on the audience.
Our job is to Entertain, Educate, Inform and Inspire though admittedly the balance between those will vary from show to show with the profile of the audience.
At the local club show 'Entertain' may be to the fore, at the specialist Expos, the other aims will be more dominant.
Quote from: Komata on March 07, 2016, 05:41:25 PM
Dinosaurs are essential (Hunting them keeps the kids occupied and gives the parents time to look at the layout which is before them).
Shunting / switching is an absolute waste of time. The public don't care - they want to see trains (any trains) moving.
Timetable and 'prototype' operation , means zilch to the viewing public. Again, they don't care and only want to see trains running.
Except to the rivet counters, 'accurate' train colours / consists mean little to the general viewer. A 'blue train is a blue train, a red one is a red one. They won't get involved in discussions about Mk 1 carriages or Sulzer diesels. They SIMPLY DON'T CARE!!
Those are all rather sweeping statements, and in every case should be prefixed with
"For the audience at some (a minority of?) shows..."Again it is a matter of knowing your audience and the exhibition organisers selecting layouts appropriate to that audience.
A layout may not be suited to the audience group to which you belong, but that doesn't make it a bad exhibition layout. There will be other types of shows where its higher prototypical fidelity will be appreciated.
Quote from: PLD on March 08, 2016, 09:27:38 PM
Quote from: Graham Walters on March 08, 2016, 09:50:09 AM
Sorry if this next bit seems harsh; You describe yourself as a member of the exhibition management committee. - If you are as dissatisfied with your own show as you appear to be, use your influence in that position to drive change. If you feel you don't have any influence, I'd say you were not an effective member of that committee and should consider your position...
This year will be my second exhibiton, last year I designed the hall layouts under the wing of the member stepping down.
This year I have suggested;
We look to booking layouts more than a few months in advance, ie we should be looking at 2017 as well as 2016.
The answer given to that was "We don't need to"
I suggested that people entering the draw be asked to provide us with and e-mail address and post code, so that a) we can inform of the of the exhibition the following year, and offer some money off entry, b) to find out how far some of our visitors were travelling.
The answer to that was "We don't need to do that, it's too much work"
I suggested we number the flyers we leave at other exhibitions with a money off coupon for a cuppa or admission for the same reasons as above.
See above for the answer given
I personally contacted Phil Parker of RM Web fame, he offered to do one day, and do demo's for his return rail fare and cake.
The answer to that was "Who's he?" "We don't pay anyone to come", "We don't need to do that"
All these answers were given by the Exhibition co-ordinator, without so much as a minutes discussion.
I do try.
I am at present trying to get the club to spend £200 on some roller banners to advertise the exhibition when our layouts go out on the road, the same person is voiciferously blocking every design I come with.
The club has over £15k in the bank, and the same person recently suggested I use stud and probe on a layout rather than switches, because "it's more reliable" and "cheaper". he has also suggested that any "expensive" items we use builidng the running night "N" layout, should be moved to the exhibition layout when we construct it.
PLD
Point taken. I had overlooked the fact that, in New Zealand, all MR shows are 'public' shows; the only 'closed' show being the biennial National Convention, hence what you call 'sweeping statements' (which I stand by BTW).
Thanks for reminding me of the different way things are done in the colonies. It was appreciated, and I know which I prefer... :) :)
Quote from: Graham Walters on March 08, 2016, 10:01:06 PM
Quote from: PLD on March 08, 2016, 09:27:38 PM
Sorry if this next bit seems harsh; You describe yourself as a member of the exhibition management committee. - If you are as dissatisfied with your own show as you appear to be, use your influence in that position to drive change. If you feel you don't have any influence, I'd say you were not an effective member of that committee and should consider your position...
This year will be my second exhibiton, last year I designed the hall layouts under the wing of the member stepping down.
This year I have suggested;
We look to booking layouts more than a few months in advance, ie we should be looking at 2017 as well as 2016.
The answer given to that was "We don't need to"
I suggested that people entering the draw be asked to provide us with and e-mail address and post code, so that a) we can inform of the of the exhibition the following year, and offer some money off entry, b) to find out how far some of our visitors were travelling.
The answer to that was "We don't need to do that, it's too much work"
I suggested we number the flyers we leave at other exhibitions with a money off coupon for a cuppa or admission for the same reasons as above.
See above for the answer given
I personally contacted Phil Parker of RM Web fame, he offered to do one day, and do demo's for his return rail fare and cake.
The answer to that was "Who's he?" "We don't pay anyone to come", "We don't need to do that"
All these answers were given by the Exhibition co-ordinator, without so much as a minutes discussion.
I do try.
I am at present trying to get the club to spend £200 on some roller banners to advertise the exhibition when our layouts go out on the road, the same person is voiciferously blocking every design I come with.
You have exactly the right ideas to improve and modernise the exhibition Graham, but it does sound like you are up against a stubborn old guard -
"we've always done it that way" mentality, in which case keep pushing. As you become more established as part of the team your influence may grow... :thumbsup:
Quote from: PLD on March 08, 2016, 10:35:22 PM
Quote from: Graham Walters on March 08, 2016, 10:01:06 PM
Quote from: PLD on March 08, 2016, 09:27:38 PM
Sorry if this next bit seems harsh; You describe yourself as a member of the exhibition management committee. - If you are as dissatisfied with your own show as you appear to be, use your influence in that position to drive change. If you feel you don't have any influence, I'd say you were not an effective member of that committee and should consider your position...
This year will be my second exhibiton, last year I designed the hall layouts under the wing of the member stepping down.
This year I have suggested;
We look to booking layouts more than a few months in advance, ie we should be looking at 2017 as well as 2016.
The answer given to that was "We don't need to"
I suggested that people entering the draw be asked to provide us with and e-mail address and post code, so that a) we can inform of the of the exhibition the following year, and offer some money off entry, b) to find out how far some of our visitors were travelling.
The answer to that was "We don't need to do that, it's too much work"
I suggested we number the flyers we leave at other exhibitions with a money off coupon for a cuppa or admission for the same reasons as above.
See above for the answer given
I personally contacted Phil Parker of RM Web fame, he offered to do one day, and do demo's for his return rail fare and cake.
The answer to that was "Who's he?" "We don't pay anyone to come", "We don't need to do that"
All these answers were given by the Exhibition co-ordinator, without so much as a minutes discussion.
I do try.
I am at present trying to get the club to spend £200 on some roller banners to advertise the exhibition when our layouts go out on the road, the same person is voiciferously blocking every design I come with.
You have exactly the right ideas to improve and modernise the exhibition Graham, but it does sound like you are up against a stubborn old guard - "we've always done it that way" mentality, in which case keep pushing. As you become more established as part of the team your influence may grow... :thumbsup:
It's reaching the point where I am considering resigning from the club completely and taking my ideas where they will be better appreciated!
Quote from: Graham Walters on March 08, 2016, 10:42:19 PM
It's reaching the point where I am considering resigning from the club completely and taking my ideas where they will be better appreciated!
It struck me you were negotiating with Notwork Fail, Graham :laugh:
Quote from: Graham Walters on March 08, 2016, 10:42:19 PM
Quote from: PLD on March 08, 2016, 10:35:22 PM
Quote from: Graham Walters on March 08, 2016, 10:01:06 PM
Quote from: PLD on March 08, 2016, 09:27:38 PM
Sorry if this next bit seems harsh; You describe yourself as a member of the exhibition management committee. - If you are as dissatisfied with your own show as you appear to be, use your influence in that position to drive change. If you feel you don't have any influence, I'd say you were not an effective member of that committee and should consider your position...
This year will be my second exhibiton, last year I designed the hall layouts under the wing of the member stepping down.
This year I have suggested;
We look to booking layouts more than a few months in advance, ie we should be looking at 2017 as well as 2016.
The answer given to that was "We don't need to"
I suggested that people entering the draw be asked to provide us with and e-mail address and post code, so that a) we can inform of the of the exhibition the following year, and offer some money off entry, b) to find out how far some of our visitors were travelling.
The answer to that was "We don't need to do that, it's too much work"
I suggested we number the flyers we leave at other exhibitions with a money off coupon for a cuppa or admission for the same reasons as above.
See above for the answer given
I personally contacted Phil Parker of RM Web fame, he offered to do one day, and do demo's for his return rail fare and cake.
The answer to that was "Who's he?" "We don't pay anyone to come", "We don't need to do that"
All these answers were given by the Exhibition co-ordinator, without so much as a minutes discussion.
I do try.
I am at present trying to get the club to spend £200 on some roller banners to advertise the exhibition when our layouts go out on the road, the same person is voiciferously blocking every design I come with.
You have exactly the right ideas to improve and modernise the exhibition Graham, but it does sound like you are up against a stubborn old guard - "we've always done it that way" mentality, in which case keep pushing. As you become more established as part of the team your influence may grow... :thumbsup:
It's reaching the point where I am considering resigning from the club completely and taking my ideas where they will be better appreciated!
If I was you I think I would do that - It sounds like a flash back 20 odd years, when there really were some set in their ways old buffers about in any club I ever encountered .
As well as modelling I sing with a couple of groups, not just in concerts but on stage - and for my sins have also directed a production of "The Mikado" which was nominated for an award. To me presenting a production on stage and presenting a model railway at an exhibition are similar.
One musical director I have worked with judges each performance by the standard below which it does not fall. In other words if the weakest aspect is good then overall you can't have achieved less than good. I try to apply this to my train sets as I want the punter to like them. You can get an impression of how good they LOOK in Railway Modeller (last August) and the current BRM for one of them, and April's Continental Modeller for the other. To see the whole effect you'll have to find them at shows.
As a punter I have my own pet dislikes in layouts, as follows-
Trains running so slowly you can count the spokes on the loco wheels. Most goods trains in steam days got a move on when they could - the driver and fireman wanted to get to the end of their shift and get home. Likewise shunting tied up the lines so there was an incentive to get on with the job.
Beautiful layouts with nothing happening.
Wildly mixed periods - EWS diesels pulling Gresley teaks on a sixties-looking layout for example.
As a layout owner it doesn't mean I get everything right in every department, but I do try for a believable whole. As a show manager if I've booked a substandard layout it won't be back again, and if the show ends up poor it is time to hand on to someone else.
Just a few thoughts.
Les