Quite a question, and one that has been turning over in my mind for a few days as our clubs model show gets closer.
It popped up in my mind after two conversations I had at our last club meeting, one concerned DCC, and how a layout was not being used to great effect.
A member at a recent show was looking at a fairly complicated DCC layout, a Dad came along with his young son also wanting to see what was going on, the point was, there was nothing going on, the operators had got all the engines in the sheds/fiddle yard, and couldn't move any of them because they didn't know the order of them going in there !
The layout itself looked great... spot on... but a lot of the time nothing was happening.
In another chat, a group are, making a Thomas layout for our show, one of the group is a teacher of 13 - 16 yr olds, and from his experience has also probably taught much younger ones too, he remarked that "most kids want to see trains going round as fast as they can" !
Point in fact most of the members in our club are over 50, I would guess that a lot of those are 60+, we only have one under 30 who turns up on a regular basis, and that person just wants to see his stock running.
I took some of this up with my son (20), he likes to see models, he likes to look at the detail in layouts and the efforts people go to, but, and this is big one, he thinks that he isn't capable to modeling to that standard, and that is what puts him off joining a club, or starting his own layout.
I asked him some questions, he admitted that he only knew my layout was GWR because I had told him so many times, I held up a section of fence I was painting and even with that knowledge, he didn't recognise the colours as being prototypically GWR.
His retort was :
"Does it really matter?"
When I tried to explain to him that it does he said I was anal and why didn't I just paint the fence white or black.
This went on for a time, eventually we got round to "Exhibition Standard", my explaining to him that things had to be right.
That's fine he said, if you are holding an exhibition for people who want to see a perfect layout, but if you are holding an exhibition to attract members or just to joe public, they like me probably don't care if you have painted the fence the right colour, or have the right trains, yes I want to see detail, but I don't care if the grass is a little out of scale, or that train never ran to that station.
He also remarked that last year at our show, he asked one operator why there were no trains running on his layout, the operator replied that none were due in the station until XX time, the operator was running the layout to a real daily timetable, where trains would appear and disappear for long lengths of time.
Is this the way we should be putting our hobby across to prospective members ?
I would hazard a guess that most clubs struggle to maintain membership numbers, and I have noticed at our club that whilst some members get involved in running trains, and helping to construct/repair the club layouts, there are many who just sit around and chat, and not always about trains, and modelling.
MRH had a thread earlier this year that touched on some of this: http://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/magazine/mrh-2015-03-mar/rr_end-of-youth-in-the-hobby/ (http://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/magazine/mrh-2015-03-mar/rr_end-of-youth-in-the-hobby/)
It's obviously slanted towards the US view, but makes interesting reading nonetheless.
[mod]Note: when posting a url "http" etc just post the link and don't add any tags'[/mod]
Hi Graham,
Interesting post!
I don't think we have too much of a problem in the real world. I know that this hobby attracts people who like to get things "right" as you describe, but in my experience exhibition managers don't exclusively look for this type of prototypical accuracy.
My layouts aren't strictly "correct" in the way you describe (exact serial numbers of locos with exactly the right mod standard hauling only stock they actually hauled etc.) although I do strive to run "feasible" stock. I seem however to get plenty of further exhibition invitations when I exhibit - I imagine because the workmanship is fairly good, the scenery looks reasonably realistic, there are trains running and it is tolerably well presented. I have never had a direct criticism about liveries or model of loco (although people maybe just mutter it to each other and move on.....!)
In fact, sometimes I have been occasionally disappointed that the balance of layouts on display at some exhibitions has been a little below par, in terms of workmanship, general realism of scenery, presentation and audience engagement.....if I compare this to a WI craft exhibition where my mum has entered work where the standard of work is eye-wateringly high. For me, these basics would be a priority over correct fence colours etc. I accept that in an exhibition you might have a few layouts by beginners or improvers, but balanced by some really professional ones.
...please don't kill me!!!
Cheers Jon :)
"Are exhibitions making our hobby elitist?"
No. Elitists are making our hobby elitist, the rest of the majority are just getting on with it, playing trains, having fun, and as Jon touched on above any exhibition worth attending will have enough of a variety to please everybody ;)
Paul
Quote from: Jon898 on August 03, 2015, 08:43:35 PM
MRH had a thread earlier this year that touched on some of this: http://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/magazine/mrh-2015-03-mar/rr_end-of-youth-in-the-hobby/ (http://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/magazine/mrh-2015-03-mar/rr_end-of-youth-in-the-hobby/)
It's obviously slanted towards the US view, but makes interesting reading nonetheless.
Note: when posting a url "http" etc just post the link and don't add any tags'
Very interesting article, and one which we all ( as old codgers) should read, I believe we are in danger of killing the hobby, because we are becoming more and more elitist, we have our own language, train speak, as anyone without an interest in loco's if they know what a 4-6-0 is and you'll get a blank look !
If you want to attract the youth, you have to appeal to them, to do that you have to do things differently to how we did them in our day, our competition is not the PS4 or it's latest incarnation, it's the digital media, you need to be online to get noticed.
Having exhibited for a few years, nearly 40 shows now, I have noticed that there is an elitist element in both exhibitors and in the viewers at shows but for the majority this is not the case, we are all enjoying our hobby.
Having said that, I am not sure elitist is the right description, surely we are all looking to expand our knowledge, develop our skills and inprove the realism of our models. Just because an individual is further along the road than another shouldn't be reason to discount them as elitist. I think the time to question the higher standard segment would be when they begin to look down on the rest of us, then it becomes a negative factor for our hobby.
Are we really ruining our hobby? A higher standard of driver with higher spec, faster cars has not resulted in a drop in interest in the Le Mans 24 hours race!
Long live model making (especially N gauge cos its better than anything else, bloody elitist here hehe)
Simon
Quote from: Sprintex on August 03, 2015, 08:50:13 PM
"Are exhibitions making our hobby elitist?"
No. Elitists are making our hobby elitist, the rest of the majority are just getting on with it, playing trains, having fun, and as Jon touched on above any exhibition worth attending will have enough of a variety to please everybody ;)
Paul
Whilst this is true, it is exhibitions where Joe Public gets to see what "we" do, and thus forms an impression that we are all the same.
I shall be watching this topic with interest :hmmm:
Having been to a few exhibitions recently I think Graham has a point, a lot of the layouts WE like to see are the ones that are all singing all dancing and conceivably correct as its our hobby and we have invested time in it.
Hence when exhibitions are organised clubs want the best of what is around to make their exhibition look good and attract US. But I think there could be a better balance and possibly show more layouts in progress or be willing to show a members first attempt, so joe blog that's walking in off the street can see that while the people who have been modelling for years can produce these master pieces in model form they would have had to start somewhere with a first attempt.
This can entice people to join the hobby and well also like on here in actual fact help that person with their first attempt with welcome tips and advice on their next attempt.
So are exhibitions making our hobby elitist not really as it us that do that either as clubs or individuals by not been as willing to entertains a fellow modellers first effort instead of some work of art by a seasoned veteran who can pull in the punters.
You do get the impression that too many of the layouts are super serious, one with just any old trains running would be fun, or even a little loop to let kids have a go, obviously with nothing expensive or fragile. Would be good to appeal to more people.
Quote from: Graham Walters on August 03, 2015, 09:21:11 PM
Quote from: Sprintex on August 03, 2015, 08:50:13 PM
"Are exhibitions making our hobby elitist?"
No. Elitists are making our hobby elitist, the rest of the majority are just getting on with it, playing trains, having fun, and as Jon touched on above any exhibition worth attending will have enough of a variety to please everybody ;)
Paul
Whilst this is true, it is exhibitions where Joe Public gets to see what "we" do, and thus forms an impression that we are all the same.
Not if, as I already said, an exhibition has a variety of different standard layouts. There's a place for the "collection of brightly coloured plastic train set items thrown randomly at a board" just as much as the super-detailed finescale layout run to a timetable - and I know which one I'd rather watch ;)
Paul
I understand your point about including lower standard layouts etc but would that do the hobby a dis-service? I know that the odd occasion I have paid to go the cinema and saw a terrible film I was not impressed and frustrated. Exhibitions, not just model railway ones, are to showcase work/art etc at its best. I do not see anything wrong in n exhibition manager striving to collect together the best collection of work they can afford/organise to attend.
I also think that a major part of exhibiting is the talking to the public and through that, it gives us the opportunity to advise, support and encourage people to realise that despite thinking otherwise, a decent standard is possible and we should remember that we all started as beginners at some point int he recent or not so recent past. I know that I am always learning.
I was helping to operate a layout on Saturday on which we were running a specific era with correct rakes and stock etc, on the occasions when younger visitors arrived, Thomas and James appeared to delighted faces. I have to admit though, the really long trains seemed to be very popular with the kids as well!
best wishes
Simon
Quote from: Christina on August 03, 2015, 09:30:54 PM
I have often thought that a Kato starter set with a bullet train (or a Kato freight train) could be a winner on the shopping channels. It ticks the boxes on so many levels
I agree, and my heart sinks when people lay into Kato track as being unrealistic. In my opinion it's one of the few practical modern advances in the hobby for decades. Young people (anyone below the age of 50, really) expect things to work as a system. Plug and play, as the marketers would say.
For sure old school track is more attractive and worth working towards. But in terms of accessing the hobby, especially the smaller N scale, Kato have invented something that's easy to use, inexpensive, and doesn't require an electrician to wire.
Critics of Kato tend to be those who see themselves as purists, and purists, on the whole, make poor ambassadors. There are some fantastic Kato-based layouts out there, Lofthole Oil Terminal for example, and I'd like to see these being promoted more actively by the magazines.
But in practise, people don't seem to discover Kato until after they've started the hobby because it isn't marketed or promoted strongly by the retailers. I'm sure quite a few people start out in the hobby and then give up because they can't get the track to work properly, never realising there's this wonderful alternative to traditional Peco track out there.
Cheers, NeMo
My point would be what are the reasons clubs run shows / exhibitions ?
For our club it is primarily in the hope that it will raise funds for the club, surely a secondary consideration has to be to attract new members.
Given that the fee's from traders balance out the expenses paid to layouts, the only profit comes from the sale of show guides, and the people attending.
I would take a punt and a guess that the majority of people attending our small show would be Joe Public, and the majority of those would be local to the area, say a 20 - 30 mile radius, the same area you would be attempting to attract your membership from.
My last little bit before I fly off for work.
I don't think lower standard models would do the hobby a dis-service as long as it is the right time and place, say TINGS is a good example that is to show case the best of the hobby where people are looking for the perfect rakes and the 100% accurate scenes and the like.
But if it is a local model club exhibition what is wrong with them showing a first effort or a "lower standard" (that phrase just sounds elitist) layout made by one of their members, we all take pride in our own work and want to show it off just because we enjoy the hobby and that's what it is all about at the end of the day!
Quote from: Sprintex on August 03, 2015, 08:50:13 PM
No. Elitists are making our hobby elitist, the rest of the majority are just getting on with it, playing trains, having fun, and as Jon touched on above any exhibition worth attending will have enough of a variety to please everybody ;)
Paul
I'll go along with that, but also add that there is an equally small minority at the other end of the scale - a kind of anti-progressive "inverted snobbery".
The hobby is a broad one and public exhibitions sometimes sit awkwardly across the line between entertainment and education. There is room for both.
As to the specific point of the OP, there needs to be some tolerance from the strict adherence to exacting standards, but equally there ought to be a lower threshold for a publicly exhibited layout - dumbing-down is not to be encouraged either...
When selecting layouts for exhibitions, the first priority is always does it work? and do the operators strive to keep it running. (the example above with the clock would be straight in the rejects pile as would the one where nothing ever escapes from the fiddleyard).
The overall presentation comes next. Modelling standards form part of that, but "consistently average" will out score "good in parts".
Historical exactitude is well down the list. Yes we may knock of points for the EWS 66 hauling pre-nationalisation private owner wagons, but most won't quibble at a little flexing of time, or a fence being a tone to dark in colour. (and the appearance of a certain blue tank engine if a group of kids are watching scores bonus points for interacting with and understanding your audience!)
I think that the bottom line is that as long as the majority of the exhibitors, the organisers and the public have enjoyed the show, then it must have been successful irrespective of whether the standard is seen to be 'dumbing down' or 'exceptionally high'. It is a hobby and we should be enjoying it - though there are many times when I get a little frustrated and wonder why I am trying at all!!
best wishes
Simon
Quote from: acko22 on August 03, 2015, 09:55:18 PM
I don't think lower standard models would do the hobby a dis-service as long as it is the right time and place, say TINGS is a good example that is to show case the best of the hobby where people are looking for the perfect rakes and the 100% accurate scenes and the like.
Funnily enough it was TINGS where the aforementioned "brightly coloured random plastic trains" layout was seen, much to the delight of many a child who found the slow-moving drab stuff too boring, and some much needed light relief. Remember these are the "next generation" people keep banging on about on here so if you can get them interested somehow they can learn all the 'correct' stuff later if they so wish :)
Paul
It's about attitude really, isn't it? If the exhibitors show infectious enthusiasm for what they're doing, then that will rub off on the audience and be inspiring rather than off-putting. Excellence and elitism don't always have to go together!
There was a commentary on this topic in a very recent issue of Railway Modeller. The gist of it was if the public was paying a fee to attend an exhibition, they expected to be entertained, and the exhibitors should be ashamed of themselves if they weren't providing that entertainment. I agreed completely with the article.
I've participated in now more than a few exhibitions here in California with the club I belong to and to put it simply - NO club is invited to participate to any exhibition unless they run trains at all times. Full stop.
The exhibition scene is perhaps a little different here in the States since it is 100% dominated by largely free-lance N-trak modular layouts. My club's smallest set up is 12' x 36' and we prefer to be at least 16' x 40.' Certainly specific N-trak modules may accurately model prototypical location, but the accuracy is limited to that one module. I have never seen at a U.S. exhibition a layout that was entirely prototype-accurate, or run to a operating schedule. Why? Because the exhibition organizers don't invite such layouts to participate. And with so few shows going on here now, if your club wants to get invited, your club darn well better provide the entertainment the exhibition organizers demand.
Our layout has a three track mainline. We run different era stock on each line all at the same time, all the time. I run UK outline, my clubmates run US, though sometimes we run Continental stock, again, all at the same time. Yes, we do run accurate rakes most of the time. But one of our members also runs 60 different cabooses in the liveries of different railroads behind a UP DD40AX "Centennial" and puts a boxcar on the back to see how many in the crowd get the joke. And of course we also run Tomix "Thomas" stock. The kids love it. They also love standing there trying to count a long rake of wagons or coaches, too. And the members of our club love it when the public loves us.
I'm not against nice scenery and well done details. Indeed, the club I belong to is very careful to model to a high standard. While I appreciate that a prototypically accurate layout or operation can be educational to the public and I also acknowledge that the public does appreciate seeing sights and landmarks on a layout that they can recognize from "real-life," stressing accuracy at an exhibition is simply wrong for the 95% of the paying public. They really just want to see a lot of different trains hauled by a lot of different types of locomotives through realistic looking scenery and they want to be able to talk to club members about the trains and the layout.
I actually have a strong opinion about this subject and I was really quite appalled when I read the article in RM. If layout exhibitors don't understand that when they attend an exhibition their participation it is not for their benefit but instead for the benefit of the paying public, then they should not be invited to show their layouts at exhibitions. Let them stay home with their precious museum standard layouts and count rivets.
Matt
Quote from: oreamnos on August 03, 2015, 10:33:55 PM
There was a commentary on this topic in a very recent issue of Railway Modeller. The gist of it was if the public was paying a fee to attend an exhibition, they expected to be entertained, and the exhibitors should be ashamed of themselves if they weren't providing that entertainment. I agreed completely with the article.
I've participated in now more than a few exhibitions here in California with the club I belong to and to put it simply - NO club is invited to participate to any exhibition unless they run trains at all times. Full stop.
The exhibition scene is perhaps a little different here in the States since it is 100% dominated by largely free-lance N-trak modular layouts. My club's smallest set up is 12' x 36' and we prefer to be at least 16' x 40.' Certainly specific N-trak modules may accurately model prototypical location, but the accuracy is limited to that one module. I have never seen at a U.S. exhibition a layout that was entirely prototype-accurate, or run to a operating schedule. Why? Because the exhibition organizers don't invite such layouts to participate. And with so few shows going on here now, if your club wants to get invited, your club darn well better provide the entertainment the exhibition organizers demand.
Our layout has a three track mainline. We run different era stock on each line all at the same time, all the time. I run UK outline, my clubmates run US, though sometimes we run Continental stock, again, all at the same time. Yes, we do run accurate rakes most of the time. But one of our members also runs 60 different cabooses in the liveries of different railroads behind a UP DD40AX "Centennial" and puts a boxcar on the back to see how many in the crowd get the joke. And of course we also run Tomix "Thomas" stock. The kids love it. They also love standing there trying to count a long rake of wagons or coaches, too. And the members of our club love it when the public loves us.
I'm not against nice scenery and well done details. Indeed, the club I belong to is very careful to model to a high standard. While I appreciate that a prototypically accurate layout or operation can be educational to the public and I also acknowledge that the public does appreciate seeing sights and landmarks on a layout that they can recognize from "real-life," stressing accuracy at an exhibition is simply wrong for the 95% of the paying public. They really just want to see a lot of different trains hauled by a lot of different types of locomotives through realistic looking scenery and they want to be able to talk to club members about the trains and the layout.
I actually have a strong opinion about this subject and I was really quite appalled when I read the article in RM. If layout exhibitors don't understand that when they attend an exhibition their participation it is not for their benefit but instead for the benefit of the paying public, then they should not be invited to show their layouts at exhibitions. Let them stay home with their precious museum standard layouts and count rivets.
Matt
This post just about sums up my feelings about exhibitions in the UK, from those that I have visited, and it is quite a few in the last twelve months, I have got the feeling that it is all too serious, and the competitive edge has taken over from the fun element.
My impression is that exhibitors are too keen on looking for ways to be different with the misconception that it is better.
We don't have the space for the size layouts you speak of, so I suppose there has to be a pay off for that, that pay off seems to be to make the layout look as prototypical as possible, and to cram as much as you can onto that 15' x 3' board.
As in my OP, I don't believe DCC has helped that much, while there are some out there who can afford it, they don't necessarily know how to use it to it's best advantage.
I read the views on this topic, and there are some really good points raised, however I thought I would share my thoughts on the topic (what little there are ???)
I an a member of a model club, and I will not mention which one it is, but I can honestly say although there are like at every club a great range of modellers with different skills and interests the overriding influence is that we all believe that "FUN" is a vital part of modelling. If we did not find it fun we would not do it, and for most of us the thing that attracted us to the hobby was that some part of it seemed "FUN".
For my part I have a layout I have ben building independently from the club, which was designed to be portable, so it did not take up a valuable bedroom permanently and was to deploy new construction methods for me.
Luckily I have had a couple of exhibition invites, and there are a couple in the very near future, but when we attend them, the operators always make sure something is running and some of the trains can be seen as fun or at least interesting, This is helped by having an operator who has not real interest in actual railways but is very good at saying what is boring or interesting in layouts. This I feel is vital as something a die hard LMS fan might find interesting is probably boring or even invisible to non fans, or your average exhibition visitor. We even let them have an influence in the type of train run, as this usually results in one of the most popular trains being formed at a show.
My attitude is that I want people to see what can be done on an average budget by an average modeller and if I can do it anyone can, we even let some of the visitors both young and old to have a go from time to time at the controls, but we may have to stop this as it just shows how bad the operators (mostly me) are :)
Here at the Antipodes, exhibitions tend to be far apart both chronologically and geographically!
I am always staggered by the number of UK exhibitions I see advertised in mags and even on this forum. In a way you are spoiled for choice over there and are able to have this (very interesting) discussion about layout and exhibition standards. :thumbsup:
Quote from: Graham Walters on August 03, 2015, 08:09:15 PM
but a lot of the time nothing was happening.
There's the problem, not the detail. If nothing runs most people, particularly children, will loose interest very quickly. Movement does not have to mean full throttle either.
A maximum time of 15 - 20 seconds between something moving (in the visible area) should be a target at an exhibition.
When it comes to detail, you will never please everyone. I have seen layouts that, to my eyes, were so far from exhibition standard that they looked out of place. These layouts were obviously however the pride and joy of their owners and were entertaining some people and as such they did deserve a place at the exhibition. At the other end of the spectrum, when exhibiting my previous layout, I have been told that the bark on the trees was the wrong colour for the species (apparently it was slightly too grey) and that this spoilt the layout.
I will probably be shot down in flames here but I would have to disagree with a lot of the comments made in this thread. I simply don't get the race to the bottom and I really don't like the phrase elitist or particularly rivet counter, as it is almost always used in a derogatory fashion.
When I go to an exhibition either as a visitor or exhibitor I want to be inspired by what I see and what other modellers have made, Im not really interested in watching stuff that has simply been taken out of the box charging round and round in circles.
As modellers we often bemoan the very negative way in which the hobby is represented in the media - anaraks, grown men and women playing with trains etc. if I were new to the hobby and came to a show I'm afraid a load of brightly coloured plastic things thrown at a board would simply reinforce that view, not encourage me to take up the hobby as a serious craft based pastime.
I do think there is room at any well balanced show for more entry level exhibits but they should be in the minority, the majority of exhibits should be aspirational, showing the hobby off at its best. Children are indeed the next generation of modellers but not for a long time. As someone who makes a living building and writing about models I can assure you that the vast majority of modellers enter/return to the hobby in their thirties and forties, not tens and teens.
Finally, the old chestnut of constant movement. Whilst I agree that nothing leaving the fiddle yard whilst the operators have a jolly round the back of the layout is bad for the hobby, I don't necessarily feel the need to have something moving all the time. Railway modelling at its best is about more than just the trains but about capturing the complete scene, particularly in N/2mm which lends itself to the railway in the landscape. A minute or so between movements on occasions is, in my opinion, no bad thing. It gives the viewer time to take in the rest of the scene and creates a sense of anticipation about what might happen next. I have had spectators, from toddlers to octogenarians, remain in front of the layout for long spells engrossed in the scene. There is always little Johnny, (of any age) who has the attention span of a Knat who glances at the layout for a few seconds before scuttling off but I didn't build the layout for them so I don't mind that.
We exhibit about eight times a year and thoroughly enjoy it. We could do at least double that and turn down more invites than we accept. We are currently taking bookings for 2018 so we must be doing something right.
This is a wonderful hobby and a very broad church so there is room for all schools of thought.
Jerry
Quote from: Kris on August 04, 2015, 08:51:48 AM
Quote from: Graham Walters on August 03, 2015, 08:09:15 PM
but a lot of the time nothing was happening.
There's the problem, not the detail. If nothing runs most people, particularly children, will loose interest very quickly. Movement does not have to mean full throttle either.
A maximum time of 15 - 20 seconds between something moving (in the visible area) should be a target at an exhibition.
When it comes to detail, you will never please everyone. I have seen layouts that, to my eyes, were so far from exhibition standard that they looked out of place. These layouts were obviously however the pride and joy of their owners and were entertaining some people and as such they did deserve a place at the exhibition. At the other end of the spectrum, when exhibiting my previous layout, I have been told that the bark on the trees was the wrong colour for the species (apparently it was slightly too grey) and that this spoilt the layout.
Tell me about it, at my first exhibition with my current layout, I had two detractors with a similar attitude, one who told me that one on my weathered Jubilees were never dirty in real life despite the fact I happened to have photographic evidence with me, then when shown this then decided that evidence was from an inferior source.
Another chap then decided to tell me that the Cows on my layout (being brown and white) where the wrong colour and that it was pathetic when people do "stupid" errors like this, when everyone knew that cows where only "black and White", and being nearly 55 years of age he had seen many cows to prove his point. I then had to point out that my layout is set prior to 1948, and that the "black and white" breed of cows was not that common in the area until much later.
The Silly Sausage lol :D
Jerry,
It sounds (at the start) like you expect the layouts to be akin to museum exhibits ...
While I do enjoy a well-made layout, seeing nothing running on it brings me to boredom in seconds, regardless how wonderful it is ... I am paying to see trains running on layouts, not for a static display; being told that an operator is running 3 trains an hour makes me baffled at how anally-retentive they are !
I don't expect to have at least 5 trains running around simultaneously at ridiculous speeds - but neither do I expect nothing to happen for 20 minutes except the "operators" sitting down in a gaggle, gossiping & ignoring the paying public ! If I wanted to see prototypical workings, I'd go down to the local station or railway line ! Instead, I want to see a layout being run - maybe just one train going through, slowly, but something happening ... A minute between one leaving and a different one entering (either the same end or another entry point), yes that's OK - I can (generally) see the next one starting on the fiddle yard, and that anticipation keeps me there a while longer.
I see what you say about returning modellers - but you have to admit that if the kids today don't see something interesting now that in later years returns to them, the majority just won't be there in later years ...
Mike
Chaps
This will probably put the kiss of death on it now, but come to the Warrington Exhibition in October, there will be many great layouts there and lots to see, they have even taken pity on my and asked Foster Street to attend.
I cant promise to keep everyone in attendance happy but with respect to my layout I can say, that although I use ready to run stock, I will have kitbuilt and scratchbuilt stock in operation, nothing is used straight out of the box, and I try to add a little colour to the trains.
One of my favourite things as a child at exhibitions was to count wagons as trains went past, and I can see this is still popular with younger, and older visitors alike, even if it does show I can't count from time to time.
You never know you may even see the Elephant train, which keeps me happy at least, and please feel free to ask the crew to run any train we have, BUT PLEASE DONT FEED THEM, it gets messy :P
Graham Walter
It's an interesting. topic and thank you for raising it. The responses so far have been both interesting and enlightening. Bealman has already given an Australian perspective and, FWIW, herewith those of a Kiwi who has the good fortune to be a frequent invited exhibitor at local MR exhibitions.
Based solely on this experience (gained over some 20-odd years) my answer would have to be that (at least in the various areas where my layouts appear,and yes, they do appear in different locations), elitism is the furthest thing from club members minds; there is simply no time or place to indulge in such 'frivolities'; 'the game's the thing'.
HOWEVER, I have observed that there are within MR clubs certain individuals who for their own reasons, like to believe that they are 'somewhat above' the rest. This was epitomised (at least for me) by a member on one club (no names BTW) who was an electronics whizz-kid of above-average abilities (again, no names). This person because of his 'exalted' status in the 'real' world, brought an 'attitude' into exhibitions (along with a beret and cape a la Pablo Picasso; I kid you not) that left all and sundry (including the paying public) in no doubt at all as to how he viewed himself. His closest companions were very definitely 'Me Myself and I'. He lasted two exhibitions before 'moving on' no doubt to places and venues which appreciated him more than us 'mere mortals'. He was definitely the more obvious (and vocal) of the species.
And for the other club members? Most are just average people (usually, but not always male BTW) who are there to have a good time and run their trains. At least, that is the reason given However observation does seem to suggest that for quite a few individuals ,(and possibly because they may not have home layouts, or space to run anything - especially in the larger scales such as O or the LGB variants), this may be the only time that they actually GET to operate their trains. Because of this there is a definitely a tendency to forget that they are putting on a display to try and persuade the general public that model trains are actually a good thing. The trains are all, and sadly, when 'faced' by a sea of backs (as the operators all crowd around their mechanical marvels, congratulating themselves on their abilities), the general public just walk away. Unfortunately at many exhibitions they walk away repeatedly, again, and again, and again..
A fantastic chance at promotion of the hobby is thus 'sunk' because the operators were too full of their own self-interest. And as if that were not enough, (and even more frequently) the situation is usually one where operator chooses NOT to engage wit the viewer and instead does his own thing. The 'ignored' enquirer eventually gets the message, again and again and ...
And in respect to 'running to prototype' in respect of times, consists and 'correctness'? Putting it bluntly, the viewing public JUST DON'T CARE!!!
They have paid perfectly good (and usually hard-earned) money to come into a venue AND TO BE ENTERTAINED!! They couldn't give a toss it the 1545 from Hogsnort Pavia is 35 seconds late or if the Flying Scotsman is hauled by a Terrier, , they WANT TO SEE TRAINS MOVING! They simply don't care about al the other bits.
In essence the problem is that at exhibitions we forget that we have a tailor-made chance to persuade the 'outside world' that what we are doing is fun and worthwhile, or that as the hobby is being replaced by 10-minute soundbites, computer games and electronic gadgets in general, ITS THE ONLY CHANCE WE HAVE TO TRY AND CHANGE THINGS - especially to the youngsters; the ones on whom the future of the hobby ultimately depends!!
We HAVE to sell ourselves, co if we don't, Model railway s is gone - sunk by a sea of 'electronica'.
Sadly, most exhibitors don't even think of this or give it any mind; they are too busy either playing their own trains, or sitting and glowering at any member of the public who approaches. Very rarely is there a welcome or an attempt to engage with the enquirer, yet we wonder why very few 'newbies' become involved. Would YOU if you were repeatedly rebuffed?
'Suicide' takes many forms; the model railway hobby has its own unique means of doing so...
It IS definitely possible to involve the public and to 'invite them in' yet very few exhibitor do do. Without wishing to blow my own trumpet, I have found that by creating a form of interactive 'where's Wally' type 'game' (because that is all it is) when exhibiting my Six-Mile Bush layout (a layout appearing in this site's gallery section BTW) we have everyone from toddlers to great grandparents involved, to the extend that it is usually most crowded layout in the hall, and the participants have a ball - they find things, they laugh, they talk, they ASK QUESTIONS and they go away WANTING to know more bout model trains. Why? because they have had a pleasurable experience and they have learnt as well. The presentation is NOT 'N-scale scale specific' it's MODEL TRAINS specific, adn that, to me is the point of the exercise; to get people interested in MODEL TRAINS, and if they go to the local toyshop and buy a 'Thomas' trainset and take it home who cares? At least they are becoming involved - and they might even like the experience!!
We also forget as exhibitors that we are, in such situations, ENTERTAINERS, and as such are no different from 'X' on Blackpool Pier or 'Y' at the local parish hall. We are not there to run schedules, follow the rule book to the letter, or to argue about what colour a train's carriage set should be (or how many rivets there are on a tender). Upsetting and horrifying though it may be to some, at exhibitions, We are there to ENTERTAIN and for no other purpose!! Accept that idea and use it to reach out and engage with the public, answering their questions, persuading them to at least enquire further, and as a hobby we win!! Ignore, deride and generally 'turn away' the public and we die.
Sadly, the latter course is usually the one that is followed; yet we wonder why no-one is interested in what we do.
Would YOU be so-inclined if you were repeatedly rebuffed and/ or ignored? As already noted, most of the viewing public just walk away - it's simply not worth the hassle...
As previously noted, 'Suicide' takes many forms; the model railway hobby has its own unique means of doing so...
Trusting that this has been of interest.
I think that as 'we' modellers get more and more experienced our outlook changes. When 'we' first started in the hobby, what were our expectations???
I, for one, just wanted to have somewhere to run the stock I had purchased, I knew what stock I wanted and in which era, for me it's BR Blue circa 1975-1985, and so I started to pick up the relevant stock for that era. Also, I sought out any layouts at exhibitions that were in 'my era' to the detriment of anything else, so sorry Jerry even your fabulous layouts would not have interested me back then. But now after quite a few years, I appreciate a good layout be it an S&D layout or Ultra modern. Also, I now find I'm looking at layouts with a more critical eye, and yes that does include the odd "Well that loco never ran with that stock".
So I have to thank Graham for starting this thread as I think it's bought me back down to earth with a bit of a bump, as it's made me realise that maybe I'm becoming one of those 'elitist rivet counters' without even realising it, and maybe in our own little way, we all are!!!! I shouldn't be like that, because as I'm also a Cub Scout Leader we have to encourage all our Cubs to strive to be the best they can in whatever they do and, regardless of what I actually think of their efforts, they have to be praised for what they've done. So I'll be looking at layouts at Exhibitions in a different manner from now on.
Regards
Neal.
Quote from: queensquare on August 04, 2015, 09:51:35 AM
I will probably be shot down in flames here but I would have to disagree with a lot of the comments made in this thread. I simply don't get the race to the bottom and I really don't like the phrase elitist or particularly rivet counter, as it is almost always used in a derogatory fashion.
I don't think you'll be shot down in flames, and in fact I agree with you about rivet counting being used pejoratively by many modellers. I prefer to say that "rather than count the rivets, make sure all the rivets count" -- in other words, that the impression of the railway created is faithful and engaging.
To take the example of the front end of 'Western' locos. Oftentimes models of these were criticised, and I'd say fairly because they weren't faithful and didn't evoke the impression the real thing had. That would be rivet counting in the right way. But criticisms about the type of battery box catch on these models is to me the wrong sort of rivet counting. On a 2 mm model nobody is going to worry about them unless actively comparing them to close-up photos.
Expand this to entire model railways. If you're modelling a GWR branchline then yes, attention to detail is what creates the authentic impression. The right sort of cars, the right sort of locos, the right sort of rolling stock. But at the same time a typical branchline might have one train an hour; hardly exciting stuff! Imagine a war movie where nothing happened for days at a time and then there was 2 minutes of frenetic activity followed by another few days of nothing. Closer to reality, but hardly good filmmaking. Model railways are a sort of movie-making, so speeding up things to create an engaging narrative is important.
Cheers, NeMo
Just to weigh in here,
I don't think the standard of the layout matters as much as the standard of the exhibitor and they're willingness to engage with the public. I've been amazed by the standard of some of the layouts Ive seen since I've been back in the UK and totally underwhelmed by the willingness of the exhibitors to even give me the time of day.
The last group I belonged to was in Canada and we deliberated chose to use the Bendtrack standard where you have no choice but to be out from behind the layout amongst the public. All this central operating aisle stuff just continues to promote an us and them environment, I've seen so many layouts where you can't even see the operator.
If your exhibiting then I think you have a responsibility to engage. Personally I find inspiration from both exquisite fine scale and as best as I can manage layouts, but regardless I'm put off by lack of enthusiasm and engagement.
This is another area where I think we have a lot to learn from North America, and yes, you do need trains running, an exhibit organiser should make this a requirement of participation.
There are some right pedants and oddballs when it comes to railway and railway modelling fans, I don't think we'll ever really get away from this!
Luckily this doesn't extend to
most I've met who exhibit! If you an exhibitor, you're probably on the more sociable end of the spectrum, possibly part of a club and you're doing a great job by being the ones getting the hobby out there! :thankyousign: It is pretty much only the exhibitors who have the power to make things change with what the public consume at exhibitions. I like it when clubs have a dedicated spokesperson on the layout who can field questions, even if the gaggle of operators are having a huddle with a cup or tea and a biscuit!
The standard for layouts in all scales, be they finescale/EM gauge layouts or not, has gone up and up over the years and I see nothing wrong with wanting to run prototypical trains to match the beautifully created surroundings. The timetabled running is not to my taste and I can see how it would put people off and even put off some who are just getting into or back into the hobby, but for some, it adds a layer of realism, usually to a great looking layout. I don't know whether you can enforce a no-timetable policy at exhibitions but it might be a disincentive for exhibitors who've spend thousands of hours and cash building an amazing layout specifically to exhibit and run to timetables - maybe have a no-timetabled running time-slot at peak times of the day...
Quote from: MikeDunn on August 04, 2015, 10:06:36 AM
I see what you say about returning modellers - but you have to admit that if the kids today don't see something interesting now that in later years returns to them, the majority just won't be there in later years ...
Great point Mike.
Layouts aimed at kids which are interactive are probably the most effective way to introduce children to the hobby. However, these kids are being taken to the exhibition presumably by someone who has already introduced and shared their hobby with the child - so that base is already kind of covered? Perhaps clubs/organisations/individuals wanting to go down this route need to provide 'aspirational' and interactive layouts with lots of playability and things to do as a way of boosting interest in railway modelling. The only exhibition layout I remember vividly from my childhood in the late 1980s/ early 1990s is an O gauge hump shunting puzzle layout I could play with at a Hove exhibition. Any wonder I wanted to go down the route of hands free coupling and easy-street Kato with its remotely switched points and magical turntable...
Maybe rewarding exhibitor's public engagement through having 'mystery shoppers' at exhibitions would be a step towards improving the public's experience of model railways!
Quote from: MikeDunn on August 04, 2015, 10:06:36 AM
I am paying to see trains running on layouts, not for a static display;
Actually you are paying for hall hire, insurance, and reasonable expenses for the exhibitors. The exhibitors are not getting paid to run a layout for the public - they give their time and effort free of charge.
I thought the article referred to in RM was mostly a load of tosh - the comparison between a few hours long concert and a 2 day show being particularly inappropriate. As for the implication that we should all wear shirts and ties to satisfy the author's views of smart :veryangry:
I've been operator, demonstrator and show manager (as well as paying public) and I want everyone to have a good time otherwise the whole idea around shows falls down. It is human nature that some exhibitors are better at engaging with the public than others.
Some shows are deliberately targetted at particular audiences so we have to take that into account. I was in the fortunate position that the show I looked after was trying to inspire people with excellent modelling (though I disliked having to make judgements on someone's hard work).
Like Jerry I rather despair at a seeming accusation that things are too serious or too accurate. I want to be inspired, I want to know how I can improve or how someone has done something.
Cheers, Mike
Yes. I have been involved in all aspects of the hobby over the years... club, exhibitions, etc, and have decided to keep schum here.
The ultimate exhibition must have been the MRJ exhibition in London in 1990, which, as far as I know, has never been repeated?
Personally I would like to see a range of layouts at exhibitions. Everything from Thomas "have a go" through to highly detailed models - something for everyone.
It does amuse me though that when I have been to exhibitions and there is a Hornby Dublo train set it is very popular. Fine scale has its place but we ignore train sets to the detriment of this great hobby.
Kind regards
Paddy
Dream It | Believe It | Achieve It
Agreed! Hornby Dublo three rail is a great crowd puller! :thumbsup:
Quote from: red_death on August 04, 2015, 11:16:10 AM
Quote from: MikeDunn on August 04, 2015, 10:06:36 AM
I am paying to see trains running on layouts, not for a static display;
Actually you are paying for hall hire, insurance, and reasonable expenses for the exhibitors. The exhibitors are not getting paid to run a layout for the public - they give their time and effort free of charge.
Actually Mike - no. This is something that organisers try & push at the public ...
You, as an exhibition manager, are paying for all that from the entry fees and stall rents you charge.
Me, as a member of the paying public, am paying to see what is in there, and if my expectations aren't met I won't be back.
The customer (me, and all the others who pay) is supposed to be King; and this is
not the case for a number of exhibitors / exhibitions ... hence the various complaints here & elsewhere.
I suspect we'll have to agree to disagree ::)
Mike
Well.
I am just about to embark on my first exhibition with our club layout 'Ensbury', and I had no concept or expectation of how it will go. So this topic has been enlightening.
First and foremost this layout ideally needs four operators. Up line, Down line, Branch line and Goods sidings.
Main line operators at the back and Branch and Siding operators 'Front of House'.
I can now understand why the shy operators want to be In Back and I am struggling to recruit operators for the front because there are very few who have the knowledge to field questions and operate trains.
Do I therefore need a fifth knowledgeable person to be the ringmaster? not only to take questions but also to 'Bring On' the next bunch of trains.
Maybe it will just happen and all visitors will be impresses/happy with our efforts.
If you are in East Sussex please visit us and see how we do.
(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/21/thumb_27162.jpg) (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=27162)
I guess if your not one of three categories cat1.EM.cat2 finescale.cat 3 p4 your not welcome in the hobby I like playing trains I like the dcc side of things but hate scenic work with a passion being at the bottom works for me only one way to go UP.LOL.Mike
Quote from: MikeDunn on August 04, 2015, 11:57:58 AM
Actually Mike - no. This is something that organisers try & push at the public ...
You, as an exhibition manager, are paying for all that from the entry fees and stall rents you charge.
Me, as a member of the paying public, am paying to see what is in there, and if my expectations aren't met I won't be back.
The customer (me, and all the others who pay) is supposed to be King; and this is not the case for a number of exhibitors / exhibitions ... hence the various complaints here & elsewhere.
You either accept that it is a community-type event where the customer is not king and all parties have a part to play or you expect "professional" quality entertainment - this begs the question would you be prepared to pay for it? If you are not prepared to pay for it why should you expect a "normal" business-customer relationship?
Even at minimum wage for a small show you could easily double the costs of putting the show on and therefore the entry price.
I think there has to be some sense of reality here - all to easy to say the customer is king without thinking about the impact on the exhibitors. If the exhibitors no longer enjoy it shows die and the public loses out hence why I said that things have to work for all involved.
Quote from: red_death on August 04, 2015, 12:33:03 PM
If the exhibitors no longer enjoy it shows die
If the paying public - and let's be honest, if they didn't pay only the little shows would happen & that just in Club rooms - don't consider they get value for money, they won't turn up & pay, and shows die ...
At the end of the day - no money = no show for the exhibitors to attend ... The paying public have to receive value, and that is what we do
not get from a number of exhibitors ... Sadly, the 'bad apples' are always remembered & the 'good eggs' quickly forgotten. It is up to exhibition managers to winnow out the bad from the good, and this appears not to happen, given the re-appearance of said 'bad apples' time & again.
Quote from: red_death on August 04, 2015, 11:16:10 AM
I thought the article referred to in RM was mostly a load of tosh - the comparison between a few hours long concert and a 2 day show being particularly inappropriate.
Couldn't agree more. As exhibitors you don't have a few hours to make a positive impression. You've got 30 seconds, tops. In the hubbub at a busy show, I'll spend about that amount of time looking at something, and if there's nothing moving and no-one ready to engage with me, I'll move on. If the scenery is really good I might take some photos. But then my memory of that layout will be a photo or two, not a dynamic model railway.
Quote from: red_death on August 04, 2015, 11:16:10 AM
As for the implication that we should all wear shirts and ties to satisfy the author's views of smart :veryangry:
Actually, presentation matters. This hobby has a bit of a beard-full-of-breadcrumbs reputation, and part of that is that the people 'front of house', engaging with the public, are anoraky sorts of people and a few don't seem to even prioritise hygiene let alone sartorial presentation. I don't particularly like wearing a suit, but I understand that by wearing a suit I give off a certain image that I wouldn't give wearing M&S jeans and a tatty Millets shirt. I'm not saying layout operators should dress like a bank manager, but they should certainly look smart and be well groomed, if not for themselves then as ambassadors of the hobby.
Quote from: red_death on August 04, 2015, 11:16:10 AM
Like Jerry I rather despair at a seeming accusation that things are too serious or too accurate. I want to be inspired, I want to know how I can improve or how someone has done something.
I do agree. I like seeing layouts that inspire me, regardless of era, scale or even country. I'm almost never inspired by attention to detail though. What gets me is if the layout portrays a place and time so effectively I think I'm there. Since I model railways because of my strong memories of visiting loco sheds with my dad, this appeal to memory is really important to me.
But let me be honest about something. I don't go to shows for the layouts. I go for the trade support. I go looking for bargains from the box shifters and secondhand deals from the minor traders without websites. I go looking for those little bits and bobs from the etched brass and whitemetal merchants, and the bags of scenic materials you never see at your local hobby shop.
Layouts are, to me, icing on the cake. Nice icing, welcome icing, but icing nonetheless. So long as the layouts are busy and well presented, I don't really care much whether the little pannier tank has the wrong GWR symbol for the year that the cinema posters at the station would seem to suggest.
Cheers, NeMo
Quote from: queensquare on August 04, 2015, 09:51:35 AM
[edit] if I were new to the hobby and came to a show I'm afraid a load of brightly coloured plastic things thrown at a board would simply reinforce that view, not encourage me to take up the hobby as a serious craft based pastime.
I do think there is room at any well balanced show for more entry level exhibits but they should be in the minority, the majority of exhibits should be aspirational, showing the hobby off at its best.
[edit]
This is a wonderful hobby and a very broad church so there is room for all schools of thought.
Jerry
I actually enjoyed your post, Jerry, and especially the reminder that the hobby has room for everyone. To that end, there may be some who, upon seeing a "load of brightly coloured plastic things thrown at a board," might actually be more encouraged to have a go in the hobby than upon seeing a so-called "aspirational" layout. The aspirational layouts which inspire some might be completely discouraging to somebody else. To say exhibits should be "showing the hobby off at its best," well, what is "best" is different for every modeller and also every member of the paying public who attends a show.
We all have are own biases and points of view on what is best and what constitutes an aspirational layout. When we (i.e., modellers) exhibit at shows it may be wise to bury our biases and concentrate on just being the entertainment we were invited to be.
Matt
Quote from: oreamnos on August 04, 2015, 06:29:27 PM
The aspirational layouts which inspire some might be completely discouraging to somebody else.
Hi Matt
I find this difficult to understand - it smacks of defeatism (or even dare I say it an unwillingness to learn/practice etc).
There is no point in deluding ourselves that we will be good at everything (many layouts actually draw upon lots of little bits and pieces mastered by different people with different skills), but equally we shouldn't throw our hands up in the air upon seeing something well-done and think that we could never reach that level. Surely well-done modelling should inspire curiousity - how did the maker do that? It is often a relatively simple answer!
NeMo - basic hygiene OK, but on the rest we start to get a bit subjective eg I regularly wear jeans and a black heavy metal t-shirt, does that make me unpresentable? To some it might...no smart answers!
Cheers, Mike
Quote from: NeMo on August 03, 2015, 09:49:58 PM
But in practise, people don't seem to discover Kato until after they've started the hobby because it isn't marketed or promoted strongly by the retailers. I'm sure quite a few people start out in the hobby and then give up because they can't get the track to work properly, never realising there's this wonderful alternative to traditional Peco track out there.
100% agree. Not so much for the time I've spent on the track itself, but for the bane of my life that is point motors.
Thankfully I found Kato before I built the goods yard in the middle of my layout, so only the outside loops (six points) have caused me to curse and turn my back on the whole thing for days or weeks at a time.
Regards,
Tim.
Quote from: NeMo on August 04, 2015, 06:19:47 PM
Quote from: red_death on August 04, 2015, 11:16:10 AM
As for the implication that we should all wear shirts and ties to satisfy the author's views of smart :veryangry:
Actually, presentation matters. This hobby has a bit of a beard-full-of-breadcrumbs reputation, and part of that is that the people 'front of house', engaging with the public, are anoraky sorts of people and a few don't seem to even prioritise hygiene let alone sartorial presentation. I don't particularly like wearing a suit, but I understand that by wearing a suit I give off a certain image that I wouldn't give wearing M&S jeans and a tatty Millets shirt. I'm not saying layout operators should dress like a bank manager, but they should certainly look smart and be well groomed, if not for themselves then as ambassadors of the hobby.
Cheers, NeMo
Here in the States, the members of each club almost always wear a club uniform when participating in an exhibition. In fact, sometimes we are required do so by the exhibition organizers. The uniform usually amounts to the members wearing matching shirts that have had the club's logotype embroidered on the chest. Club members are usually required to purchase such a shirt from the club upon being admitted. As NeMo says, we are ambassadors of the hobby. We are also ambassadors for our club. While a smart uniform may not make anyone decide to join our club, it certainly can't hurt and it does conveys a sense that as a club, we have our act together.
I have to say that from what I'm reading here about UK exhibitions, they do seem a bit amateurish and ad hoc compared to what I'm used to in the US. As for UK clubs, do they usually have club officers, dues, budgets, etc.? Those are all the norm in the US.
Matt
There is lots I could say but will restrict myself to a handful of points.
Firstly, whilst the visitors to a show do indeed pay good money to get in that pales into insignificance compared to the thousands of pounds and hours poured into exhibits by their owners. Not to mention the risks taken by carting their pride and joy across the country. All for free, often including taking the Friday off and with just basic expenses covered. We do it because it's a lot of fun and we love it but as Mike said, it's not a normal professional relationship between punter and exhibitor, it's a community, a shared experience.
Regarding engagement with the public, we operate from the front and anyone who has seen us at an exhibition, and there will be plenty as Highbury did over seventy shows before I retired it, will know Kim and I are constantly talking to spectators, answering questions and encouraging them to have a go. This interaction is one of my favourite aspects of exhibiting, despite usually running out of voice toward the end of the day!
Finally I'm not entirely comfortable with this notion that we are just there for a minute or so entertainment in between shopping at the various traders. I exhibit because I enjoy it and to showcase the hobby, if that entertains as well then all well and good. But if all you want is action and entertainment then hire a juggler or a performing seal!
By the way Paddy, I'm with you, I love the Dublo three rail.
Jerry
Just my opinion
As an infrequent visitor to exhibitions - to date always as a paying visitor, I have always looked at the traders before I have looked at the layouts.
Because I have usually modelled slightly more freelance or obscure railways than most I like to look for small details that inspire me to try something different.
I like to see trains that run but also love to see a layout operator that interacts with visitors.
I will be attending ExpoNG at Swanley in October with an entry in one of their competitions - Something Never done before apart from a couple of entries in online competitions on this forum.
I have also built a diorama that will shuttle an Autorail up and down a single track in Zm scale(1/220 on 3mm T Gauge Track) which has been offered to show a new take on modelling in small scales. Awaiting confirmation that this will be exhibited as well.
Quote from: oreamnos on August 04, 2015, 07:01:21 PM
Here in the States, the members of each club almost always wear a club uniform when participating in an exhibition. In fact, sometimes we are required do so by the exhibition organizers. The uniform usually amounts to the members wearing matching shirts that have had the club's logotype embroidered on the chest.
I've had a fair bit to do with tropical fish clubs in the US, and they also have club shirts. Of course the problem in the UK is that there's a hostility to professionalism among some, who prefer the 'take me as you find me' approach to life. While I understand that way of thinking, I do believe the US approach is more coherent and inviting.
Quote from: queensquare on August 04, 2015, 07:01:41 PM
Finally I'm not entirely comfortable with this notion that we are just there for a minute or so entertainment in between shopping at the various traders. I exhibit because I enjoy it and to showcase the hobby, if that entertains as well then all well and good. But if all you want is action and entertainment then hire a juggler or a performing seal!
You might not like it, but it is the reality for many. Think about a busy show, and do people really have twenty minutes to examine a layout properly? Especially one with big crowds and lots of pushing?
I was at a show on Sunday in Minehead, had half an hour there while the wife and baby were off doing something else. So very much a quick nip in to see what was up. That was an extreme situation, but as a married man with a young baby, realistically an hour at a show is what I'll get before I need to get on with other stuff. If I'm going to stick with a layout for more than cursory examination, it has to engage me quickly, otherwise I'm going to push off to the traders to see what's what.
I'm sure others can spend the whole afternoon soaking in the experience, and before I got married, I certainly would try. But nowadays model trains are just one of many demands on my life. Among those demands are my job that allows me to spend a couple hundred a month on toy trains, so absolutely busy working people are the ones you need to attract into this wonderful hobby.
Let's be clear: I'm not saying dumb down the hobby. But when you're at an exhibition, bear in mind you're not posing for photographers from Railway Modeller but trying to catch the attention of a steady stream of people who may have limited time. There are some layouts that look good and get the activity level right. Rusbury Basin, Horseley Fields, Elcot Road and Dewsbury Midland are ones that spring to mind.
Cheers, NeMo
Quote from: red_death on August 04, 2015, 06:39:49 PM
Quote from: oreamnos on August 04, 2015, 06:29:27 PM
The aspirational layouts which inspire some might be completely discouraging to somebody else.
Hi Matt
I find this difficult to understand - it smacks of defeatism (or even dare I say it an unwillingness to learn/practice etc).
Cheers, Mike
That's not how it's meant. I'm trying to say that different members of the public who come to show will be inspired by different layouts on display. Someone who has never made a model railway might very well see something that looks very poor to modellers and think, "I could do that, too!" And more power to them, I say.
Aspiration has different degrees. I'm not saying people shouldn't learn new skills. But if (for example) ready to plant buildings and a circle of Unitrack makes someone feel like they've become a modeler, I think that is fantastic. As Jerry said, this is a big church.
Matt
Quote from: queensquare on August 04, 2015, 07:01:41 PM
Firstly, whilst the visitors to a show do indeed pay good money to get in
Yes we do. And it increases with the prominence of the exhibition (look at the entry prices of Warley, for example). I've given up attending those large shows in the east of England, not just for the expense of getting there but the expense of getting inside.
Quote
that pales into insignificance compared to the thousands of pounds and hours poured into exhibits by their owners. Not to mention the risks taken by carting their pride and joy across the country.
That's their choice ... no-one forces them, they want to show the layout off.
I'm not saying this is bad (far from it) but they
are getting paid to be there ... and the people who fund that (Joe Public) expect more than a static landscape with a grumpy
old git bloke answering polite questions with grunts at best ! OK, maybe he's been asked 55 times in the past hour "is anything going to move soon ?" but that surely shows a problem with what they are doing ?
And before you ask, yes I am intending to offer my layout (when I finish it) to local shows ... and no, I won't be expecting to get paid for it ! A contribution to the fuel costs would be helpful, but I wouldn't expect anything more.
At large shows -
layouts are the entertainment between stalls. Sorry if that offends you but face facts - that's what they are, just like the 1:1 engine Warley brings in each year. Only at small shows, with maybe a handful of local stalls at best, are the layouts the main attraction. But you pay a damn sight less at those, and have
much lower expectations as a result.
Mike
I'm not saying this is bad (far from it) but they are getting paid to be there ...
Sorry not correct, at most exhibitors are paid their expenses for fuel or in some cases vehicle hire certainly not 'paid to be there'
best wishes
Simon
Quote from: bridgiesimon on August 04, 2015, 07:44:46 PM
Sorry not correct, at most exhibitors are paid their expenses for fuel or in some cases vehicle hire certainly
Where did I say "lots of money" ? As you admit, they
are getting paid ...
Just like to add to this that our club pays exhibitors expenses, puts them up in B & B, and provides with lunch on both days, as well as tea and coffee.
The trade frontage has to balance the books against layouts, they are the ones who indirectly pay for the layouts and the hire of the halls, we hope that the entrance fee is profit.
Dress wise I've seen everything from the manky jeans & three day worn T-Shirt, to the collar & tie, and I know which one gives me a better impression, the least I would expect is smart casual and a co-ordination of club/layout/society shirt.
Aspiration wise I personally think that the degree of detail and prototypical running of trains can and does put a lot of people off the hobby, well if not the hobby, then joining a club because all they see is a pristine layout. We are actually this year putting on show a "work in progress" layout, so that we can at least give the public an idea of what goes on at a club night, I feel it is a step in the right direction, given that the bloke who hand built the track had never done it before.... and yes it does work !
Regarding payment to exhibitors in my case If I don't have to pay to get in, and a complimentary drink and possibly a snack during the day is provided then I would be happy because I am trying to promote a hobby that others hopefully will enjoy.
Quote from: Graham Walters on August 04, 2015, 07:58:24 PM
Just like to add to this that our club pays exhibitors expenses, puts them up in B & B, and provides with lunch on both days, as well as tea and coffee.
And a big :thumbsup: to you guys. A group I'm with gets basic expenses for 2 operators (there's normally 4 ...) and is expected to to fund their own tea/coffee ...
Quote
We are actually this year putting on show a "work in progress" layout, so that we can at least give the public an idea of what goes on at a club night, I feel it is a step in the right direction, given that the bloke who hand built the track had never done it before.... and yes it does work !
And that kind of layout (as seen by the German layout @ TINGS these past few years) gets more of my attention ! You can move from a bare board, through outline landscaping, through bare landscaping, to finished area & see how they did it ... Always useful for those of us without a layout !
Quote from: grumbeast on August 04, 2015, 10:52:45 AMbe out from behind the layout amongst the public.
Arrgh - one of by pet hates as both an exhibitor - no escape from those who are economic with the soap; and as a viewer - I want to see the layout and the trains, not the back of the operator wandering up and down in front of me :no:
Quote from: MikeDunn on August 04, 2015, 07:29:28 PM
Quote
that pales into insignificance compared to the thousands of pounds and hours poured into exhibits by their owners. Not to mention the risks taken by carting their pride and joy across the country.
That's their choice ... no-one forces them, they want to show the layout off.
But if they didn't what the heck do you think you would see for your money at exhibitions ??? ??? ::) :confused2:
The reality is yes, exhibitors do receive payment to cover (most of) their expenses in attending, but overall in most cases they will more likely be slightly out of pocket by the end of the weekend...
Quote from: MikeDunn on August 04, 2015, 07:29:28 PM
And it increases with the prominence of the exhibition (look at the entry prices of Warley, for example).
At large shows - layouts are the entertainment between stalls. Sorry if that offends you but face facts - that's what they are, just like the 1:1 engine Warley brings in each year.
Mike
Please do not Tar all shows with the Warley Brush...
Those large shows are aimed at a lowest common denominator market who are attracted more by quantity than quality. It is quite sad to read that the traders are a bigger attraction than the layouts, but having witnessed the spectacle of the stampede for the Bachmann stand I shouldn't be surprised (makes a herd of wilderbeeste look civilised) - from your postings in this thread you should fit in perfectly...
Quote from: PLD on August 04, 2015, 08:06:48 PM
Quote from: grumbeast on August 04, 2015, 10:52:45 AMbe out from behind the layout amongst the public.
Arrgh - one of by pet hates as both an exhibitor - no escape from those who are economic with the soap; and as a viewer - I want to see the layout and the trains, not the back of the operator wandering up and down in front of me :no:
Totally agree- operators belong behind the layout otherwise they get in the way :thumbsup:
As for the layouts being second to the traders it just shows that we're all different in our outlook and expectations. I go to shows almost exclusively to look at layouts, I
may look at trade stands if there's something I particularly want, and only then if there's time to kill after watching trains :)
Paul
Quote from: NeMo on August 04, 2015, 10:52:18 AM
But criticisms about the type of battery box catch on these models is to me the wrong sort of rivet counting. On a 2 mm model nobody is going to worry about them unless actively comparing them to close-up photos.
Cheers, NeMo
Sorry NeMo, but I would. Post Ealing battery box catches on maroon, or SYP blue, Westerns (except in preserved condition) would be a case in point. The reason being because both the 'era' and livery are wrong.
But otherwise I totally support your comments.
Greg.
Quote from: tim-pelican on August 04, 2015, 06:52:15 PM
but for the bane of my life that is point motors.
Regards,
Tim.
Totally agree Tim, so much so that the points on my layout (currently building) are operated by hand.
Not so realistic, but far less trouble.
Greg.
Quote from: Graham Walters on August 04, 2015, 07:58:24 PM
Dress wise I've seen everything from the manky jeans & three day worn T-Shirt, to the collar & tie, and I know which one gives me a better impression, the least I would expect is smart casual and a co-ordination of club/layout/society shirt.
The irony of writing that whilst complaining about elitism and wanting to attract people to the hobby...
Quote from: PLD on August 04, 2015, 08:06:48 PM
Quote from: grumbeast on August 04, 2015, 10:52:45 AMbe out from behind the layout amongst the public.
Arrgh - one of by pet hates as both an exhibitor - no escape from those who are economic with the soap; and as a viewer - I want to see the layout and the trains, not the back of the operator wandering up and down in front of me :no:
Wow! Quite a reaction, and a pretty poor opinion of those people who came to see your layout...that critique could equally well apply to those behind the scenes, we're all train fans good and bad. That said I confess it is easier to be out in front when there are 4 or 5 operators and over 50 linear feet of layout, plenty of space for everyone. I guess I'd just mistakenly assumed that wanting to exhibit a layout meant you wanted others to see it, and by consequence wanted some level of interaction with them. If that's not the case, just film it, stick it on YouTube, more convenient for everyone and no risk of hygienic mishaps
That said I think your missing out on the interactionsy
Quote from: red_death on August 04, 2015, 08:50:04 PM
Quote from: Graham Walters on August 04, 2015, 07:58:24 PM
Dress wise I've seen everything from the manky jeans & three day worn T-Shirt, to the collar & tie, and I know which one gives me a better impression, the least I would expect is smart casual and a co-ordination of club/layout/society shirt.
The irony of writing that whilst complaining about elitism and wanting to attract people to the hobby...
I don't see how expecting operators to be dressed smart casual, has anything to do with the layouts and how they are run.
Quote from: PLD on August 04, 2015, 08:26:15 PM
But if they didn't what the heck do you think you would see for your money at exhibitions ??? ??? ::) :confused2:
You're ignoring my point. Sure, many hours and lots of money are put into the layouts (or most of them, anyway); but if you're arguing that we should bow down & worship before the exhibitors because they deign to attend ... ::) They're there because they want to be there; they're getting paid to be there (we've already covered that); and the paying customer expects more than what a large number give back ... Kudos to those that do provide the entertainment, but there are far too many that think the punters should be thankful they have bothered to come ... :worried: And most of said punters are there for the
dealers, not the layouts. You can see them in the magazines or the internet - having many dealers together means you can get items you've been hoping for, and maybe get all you're after - all in one place.
Quote
The reality is yes, exhibitors do receive payment to cover (most of) their expenses in attending, but overall in most cases they will more likely be slightly out of pocket by the end of the weekend...
Did you read my post of 8:05, as it appears you didn't ...
Quote
It is quite sad to read that the traders are a bigger attraction than the layouts, but having witnessed the spectacle of the stampede for the Bachmann stand I shouldn't be surprised (makes a herd of wilderbeeste look civilised) - from your postings in this thread you should fit in perfectly...
Thank you for the insult - I would point out that this is exhibited at pretty much the larger shows - including TINGS. And no, I do
not partake in the stampede ...
Maybe, and I have argued this before, the public would pay more attention to the exhibitors if their layouts were actually
doing things like have a train running ... instead of being a static item for tens of minutes at a time, hmmm ? Far too many follow this route.
We're going around in circles - various people here feel insulted because the paying public doesn't appreciate them, and the people paying the money in the first place feel they are being ripped off with layouts that are effectively in the way of those actually giving them value for money, and the stalls they want to buy from ...
Quote from: MikeDunn on August 04, 2015, 09:01:07 PM
Quote from: PLD on August 04, 2015, 08:26:15 PM
But if they didn't what the heck do you think you would see for your money at exhibitions ??? ??? ::) :confused2:
You're ignoring my point.
NO you are ignoring the point - Exhibitors get no wage/salary or appearance fee for attending.
QuoteDid you read my post of 8:05, as it appears you didn't ...
Yep - I noticed you contradict yourself by arguing against exhibitors being paid expenses then admitting your group claims expenses... :dunce:
QuoteQuote
It is quite sad to read that the traders are a bigger attraction than the layouts, but having witnessed the spectacle of the stampede for the Bachmann stand I shouldn't be surprised (makes a herd of wilderbeeste look civilised) - from your postings in this thread you should fit in perfectly...
Thank you for the insult
You're Welcome! ;)
Quote from: MikeDunn on August 04, 2015, 09:01:07 PM
Maybe, and I have argued this before, the public would pay more attention to the exhibitors if their layouts were actually doing things like have a train running ... instead of being a static item for tens of minutes at a time, hmmm ? Far too many follow this route.
:thumbsup:
QuoteWe're going around in circles -
Of course we are, because like most things in life we all want and expect different things ;) Some go purely for traders, some (like me) avoid them unless necessary. Some expect operators to be in bow-tie and DJ, others couldn't care less what the op looks like as long as the layout is running. Some expect 100% attention-to-detail and snub their nose at "lesser" efforts, some are happy watching a trainset out of a box.
If people just accepted that others have different expectations and not everything should be tailored to their little world this whole thread based on criticising other people wouldn't even exist ;)
Paul
Quote from: MikeDunn on August 04, 2015, 09:01:07 PM
Quote from: PLD on August 04, 2015, 08:26:15 PM
But if they didn't what the heck do you think you would see for your money at exhibitions ??? ??? ::) :confused2:
You're ignoring my point. Sure, many hours and lots of money are put into the layouts (or most of them, anyway); but if you're arguing that we should bow down & worship before the exhibitors because they deign to attend ... ::) They're there because they want to be there; they're getting paid to be there (we've already covered that); and the paying customer expects more than what a large number give back ... Kudos to those that do provide the entertainment, but there are far too many that think the punters should be thankful they have bothered to come ... :worried: And most of said punters are there for the dealers, not the layouts. You can see them in the magazines or the internet - having many dealers together means you can get items you've been hoping for, and maybe get all you're after - all in one place.
Quote
The reality is yes, exhibitors do receive payment to cover (most of) their expenses in attending, but overall in most cases they will more likely be slightly out of pocket by the end of the weekend...
Did you read my post of 8:05, as it appears you didn't ...
Quote
It is quite sad to read that the traders are a bigger attraction than the layouts, but having witnessed the spectacle of the stampede for the Bachmann stand I shouldn't be surprised (makes a herd of wilderbeeste look civilised) - from your postings in this thread you should fit in perfectly...
Thank you for the insult - I would point out that this is exhibited at pretty much the larger shows - including TINGS. And no, I do not partake in the stampede ...
Maybe, and I have argued this before, the public would pay more attention to the exhibitors if their layouts were actually doing things like have a train running ... instead of being a static item for tens of minutes at a time, hmmm ? Far too many follow this route.
We're going around in circles - various people here feel insulted because the paying public doesn't appreciate them, and the people paying the money in the first place feel they are being ripped off with layouts that are effectively in the way of those actually giving them value for money, and the stalls they want to buy from ...
This really is starting to get silly and I'm not sure why you feel the need to exaggerate so aggressively in your posts.
Firstly, nobody is asking anybody to bow down and I for one feel very much appreciated at the shows I exhibit at. You're right we don't have to do it but we enjoy it and, as I said, have invites several years in advance.
Secondly where is your evidence that most people go to shows for the traders. I certainly don't and nor do most modellers I know. I go to see great modelling of all flavours.
This notion that most layouts have long spells with nothing happening simply isn't true. I walk around shows and there are trains running all over the place. If, by your own admission, you only spend a minute or less at layouts whilst skipping between traders how do you know nothing runs for ten minutes at a time?
If you don't know the difference between being paid and a contribution to out of pocket expenses I don't know what to say really.
Jerry
The only exhibition I ever attended in the UK was the National Model Railway Exhibition at Central Hall in London in 1976 (got the program in front of me now) so I can't comment on personal experience of exhibitions.
However, I get the impression from visiting one or two web sites (not this one) that there is a "clique" of self-professed "elite modellers" whose motivation for attending exhibitions is to meet up with their mates and check out each others layouts.
Entertaining the public is not their priority, although the embarassment of locos not running properly, and having to use the "finger from the sky" certainly is.
Almost all of these guys model in gauges other than N so I'm not referring to anyone here. In fact this forum is a haven of modesty and absence of rivalry. Those of us whose layouts do feature in exhibitions are rightly chuffed but there is no element of vanity there.
Long may it continue.
Best regards,
Joe
Quote from: Sprintex on August 04, 2015, 09:16:28 PM
Quote from: MikeDunn on August 04, 2015, 09:01:07 PM
Maybe, and I have argued this before, the public would pay more attention to the exhibitors if their layouts were actually doing things like have a train running ... instead of being a static item for tens of minutes at a time, hmmm ? Far too many follow this route.
:thumbsup:
QuoteWe're going around in circles -
Of course we are, because like most things in life we all want and expect different things ;) Some go purely for traders, some (like me) avoid them unless necessary. Some expect operators to be in bow-tie and DJ, others couldn't care less what the op looks like as long as the layout is running. Some expect 100% attention-to-detail and snub their nose at "lesser" efforts, some are happy watching a trainset out of a box.
If people just accepted that others have different expectations and not everything should be tailored to their little world this whole thread based on criticising other people wouldn't even exist ;)
Paul
Like all discussions, this one has tended to go off track ( no pun) a little.
It's not much to expect operators to be "well presented" whether they are operating a layout that is detailed to the eyeballs, or not.
IMO it's not too much to expect the operators to indulge in conversation with the public, personally I have never found one unwilling to do it, most are only too pleased to talk about their layout.
While referring to "elitism" I wasn't taking into consideration the expenses incurred, or how they are repaid, although from a little experience it does seem that some of the bigger layouts operators stretch the costs a little !
I was simply referring to the fact that some layouts are getting so complicated that even the operators are unable to control them properly, and this results in dead moments on the layout. some of these dead moments can last minutes as they figure out how to move some thing from the fiddle yard or the engine shed/station.
A layout can have all the bells and whistles money can buy, but if you can't operate it to entertain the public, what use is it, other than a showpiece for the size of you wallet or the depth of your skills.
Quote from: queensquare on August 04, 2015, 09:26:46 PM
This notion that most layouts have long spells with nothing happening simply isn't true. I walk around shows and there are trains running all over the place. If, by your own admission, you only spend a minute or less at layouts whilst skipping between traders how do you know nothing runs for ten minutes at a time?
Maybe because I asked, hmmm ? And got told 'nothing scheduled for another xx minutes, we only run 3 trains an hour' ? That happens far more often than you seem to realise. I'm certainly not going to waste my time standing around waiting for the 12:23 when it's 12:05 ! And this kind of 'display' doesn't attract new people either, especially the kids.
Quote from: Graham Walters on August 04, 2015, 09:34:18 PM
A layout can have all the bells and whistles money can buy, but if you can't operate it to entertain the public, what use is it, other than a showpiece for the size of you wallet or the depth of your skills.
Exactly.
Quote from: Graham Walters on August 04, 2015, 08:53:19 PM
I don't see how expecting operators to be dressed smart casual, has anything to do with the layouts and how they are run.
Which was precisely my point - if it doesn't affect the layout and the running why does it matter. Furthermore you started off on the premise that exhibitions were making the hobby elitist, then proceeded to set out a dress code to suit your ideals - quite frankly something guaranteed to turn off new younger members and even those of us not so young!
If what I wear doesn't smell, is clean, and has no impact on the layout or its operation then why I should I forced to wear some sort of "professional" uniform. If you want professional layout operators in uniforms then pay them (which means more than reimburse them for some of their expenses), but I'll be happy carrying on as the friendly bunch of amateurs that we are.
Cheers, Mike
Quote from: red_death on August 04, 2015, 10:03:19 PM
Quote from: Graham Walters on August 04, 2015, 08:53:19 PM
I don't see how expecting operators to be dressed smart casual, has anything to do with the layouts and how they are run.
Which was precisely my point - if it doesn't affect the layout and the running why does it matter. Furthermore you started off on the premise that exhibitions were making the hobby elitist, then proceeded to set out a dress code to suit your ideals - quite frankly something guaranteed to turn off new younger members and even those of us not so young!
If what I wear doesn't smell, is clean, and has no impact on the layout or its operation then why I should I forced to wear some sort of "professional" uniform. If you want professional layout operators in uniforms then pay them (which means more than reimburse them for some of their expenses), but I'll be happy carrying on as the friendly bunch of amateurs that we are.
Cheers, Mike
No-one is "forcing" you to do anything.
Apart from anything else operators from the same club all wearing a club shirt, is a bit of advertising, and doesn't reek of elitism.
I didn't set out the ideals of dress either, I suggest you read through all the posts, to see who brought the subject up, as for a premise, I was simply asking the question about exhibitions based on my experiences and those of some fellow club members, in plain English the emphasis seems to have moved from being "fun" to see who can spend the most money making a layout that is virtually inoperable !
Quote from: Bealman on August 04, 2015, 08:12:50 AM
Here at the Antipodes, exhibitions tend to be far apart both chronologically and geographically!
I am always staggered by the number of UK exhibitions I see advertised in mags and even on this forum. In a way you are spoiled for choice over there and are able to have this (very interesting) discussion about layout and exhibition standards. :thumbsup:
Too true. If you aren't in a capital city over here then you can forget seeing exhibitions. My trips to the big smoke are always poorly timed as well......
Quote from: red_death on August 04, 2015, 10:03:19 PM
Quote from: Graham Walters on August 04, 2015, 08:53:19 PM
I don't see how expecting operators to be dressed smart casual, has anything to do with the layouts and how they are run.
Which was precisely my point - if it doesn't affect the layout and the running why does it matter. Furthermore you started off on the premise that exhibitions were making the hobby elitist, then proceeded to set out a dress code to suit your ideals - quite frankly something guaranteed to turn off new younger members and even those of us not so young!
If what I wear doesn't smell, is clean, and has no impact on the layout or its operation then why I should I forced to wear some sort of "professional" uniform. If you want professional layout operators in uniforms then pay them (which means more than reimburse them for some of their expenses), but I'll be happy carrying on as the friendly bunch of amateurs that we are.
Cheers, Mike
This is fascinating to me. The club I belong to has been paid (sometimes a good deal) to exhibit at special events (e.g., a new municipal train station opening or as part of a museum display). But aside from those special events, here in California, our club (like every other one out here) has
never been paid to attend a model train exhibition. We have never been paid a reimbursement for travel cost or a per diem. In fact, we actually have to pay to park our cars at a show. Travel, petrol, labor, parking, food and drink - all of this is out of each club member's individual pocket - the club budget doesn't cover any of this. The only "freebie" we get is that we don't have to pay admission to the show! We even all wear our club uniform shirts, which we personally have to buy ourselves.
All this and yet we don't complain because we enjoy running trains and entertaining the people at the show. And yet we still consider ourselves to be friendly bunch of amateurs.
We wear our club uniforms because model train exhibitions here are targeted at families. The exhibition organizers specify a dress code for exhibitors because they know that exhibitors wearing certain clothes can make some people uncomfortable, and uncomfortable people leave shows more quickly and spend less money than people who are comfortable. Exhibition organizers who make money stay in business which means they might have enough capital to put on more shows. It isn't about clubs or club members being elitist one iota. It's about clubs helping the the organizers have a successful show so that their might be more shows. As it is, there are very, very few shows here in southern California each year (<5 at a guess) which can be at least 100 miles apart, and there are what, maybe 20 million people who live in the area? Hmm.
So I really am genuinely surprised at the attitude that professional appearances don't matter and that people should be paid to exhibit their layouts at shows. There's nothing wrong with that attitude at all, but it is completely unfamiliar to me and is perhaps (as NeMo alluded to in a prior post) a cultural difference between the US and UK, or maybe it is just a consequence of there being so many more exhibitions in the UK than in the US that (given the geographical size of the US) any given club can actually possibly travel to and attend each year.
Matt
oreamnos
It would seem that our experiences, despite being some 4,000 miles apart are somewhat similar. As things stand locally (New Zealand), the national practice tends to be as follows: The Model Railway Club (MRC) hires the hall, pays the hireage fee (and sometimes a monetary bond to cover 'damage' 'just in case') to the hall owner (usually a local authority or a Hall Organising Committee associated with a church or sports club). The club then puts on the show, while providing all the necessary for the viewing public (including food BTW; hot dogs etc.). The traders come in, pay the MRC an appropriate fee and are left in peace to do what they do best, and if any 'collector' has things to sell, he 'hires' a table from the club. The MRC has its own 'organising committee, with a designated 'Officer in Charge' (OIC) and they do all the liaising with the Hall owners, local authorities, traders etc. while the members turn up on the day, set up their own layouts at the spot allocated to them and (literally), play trains.
On exhibition day/s the OIC (or someone designated for the purpose) assumes a 'roving brief' and acts as a 'troubleshooter' to solve problems and make sure that both the exhibitors and viewing public have an enjoyable time. For personal health reasons (no details), I have found this individual to be absolutely essential to may own situation. They are always very good at their job.
At the end, the exhibitors pull everything down, tidy up the venue and after an inspection of the premises by the hall owners, return the key (or pay; via the bond, for any damage), retrieve the bond and walk away - until next year.
Such events tend to be held at the same venues on an annual or semi-annual basis, and are part of the local scene in the towns where they take place.
And in respect of payment 'to attend'?
Like you, we all go 'for the fun of it', and expect nothing in return. I travelled 600 miles (round trip) to one exhibition, meeting all my own costs (including accommodation and meals), and got nothing financially in return. I DID however get the experience and a fun-filled three days.
Sometimes an 'expenses' cheque arrives several weeks after the event, and this is, of course always appreciated, but it it NOT sought beforehand; it is, if you will, a nice 'bonus' for an entertaining time.
As I said, our respective national experiences do seem to be similar, and it would seem that the British way of doing things in respect of exhibitions is evidently a lot more complicated.
Based on what has so far been written, as exhibitors in the USA and New Zealand, we would seem to be being let off lightly...
Let the discussion continue.
Quote from: Komata on August 04, 2015, 11:56:13 PM
Let the discussion continue.
Please, no.
The one message that come out of this six pages of argument is that it takes all sorts.
The other message that comes out is that some people aren't happy with that concept.
Hat, coat, door.
Perfectly made point Tony!!!
Best wishes
Simon
Quote from: Yet_Another on August 05, 2015, 12:04:05 AM
Quote from: Komata on August 04, 2015, 11:56:13 PM
Let the discussion continue.
Please, no.
The one message that come out of this six pages of argument is that it takes all sorts.
The other message that comes out is that some people aren't happy with that concept.
Hat, coat, door.
Yes - I've got to admit I was wrong...
Quote from: PLD on August 03, 2015, 09:56:51 PMthere is an equally small minority at the other end of the scale - a kind of anti-progressive "inverted snobbery".
There a worryingly large number and they all seem to be rather vocal in this thread...
::) :censored: :veryangry:
Quote from: red_death on August 04, 2015, 10:03:19 PM
If what I wear doesn't smell, is clean, and has no impact on the layout or its operation then why I should I forced to wear some sort of "professional" uniform. If you want professional layout operators in uniforms then pay them (which means more than reimburse them for some of their expenses), but I'll be happy carrying on as the friendly bunch of amateurs that we are.
I think we're slamming into a UK/US difference in culture.
For a lot of Brits, being asked to make any effort to look smarter than usual is an insult, like asking them to wear their school uniform again! They simply don't accept the idea that as a club or layout operator they're the visible face of the hobby. The British like the idea of being amateurs, and for them, that means being left to get on with their own thing in their own way without any interference 'from above'.
Americans view things differently. Clubs are teams, and teams share an identity. Being given a team shirt is an act of inclusion, making that person part of a group that shares a set of values and aspirations. A team shirt isn't a uniform you're forced to wear but something you want to wear proudly. It shows that you belong to this group.
A while back I think you asked whether a heavy metal t-shirt and jeans is inappropriate. Personally, I'd say it depends on how old you are. If you're in your teens or twenties, then fine, wear your Cradle of Filth shirt with all the swagger and pride you want. But if you're in your forties or fifties, then at a public event it might come across a little bit Comic Book Guy. Of course you may have the physique of a Greek god and totally rock the look, in which case more power to you! I just don't know, and don't want to insult your sartorial choices any more than I'd want mine challenged (I've been told I dress like a hobbit).
But at the end of the day what we're talking about whether we should be making the hobby look smarter than its current crusty old man image. I think we can, and should, and part of that would be a slightly more professional approach to model train shows.
Cheers, NeMo
An interesting comment, and one which I heartily agree with. I would not go and trust my health to a doctor who was dressed like a ragamuffin. Likewise, when I was fortunate enough to be asked to return to work for 5 weeks recently to teach Physics, it was shirt and tie stuff, not ragamuffin.
As I have already posted, here in Aus we are a bit starved for exhibitions compared to the UK, but almost all exhibitors now have a 'corporate image' and are always smartly dressed with their club shirts and logos prominent.
I visit between 20 – 25 model railway shows a year, ranging between the biggies such as TINGS, Wigan and Stafford to the very small charity shows held in the local church hall. Like some others I make a beeline for the traders first in (mostly vain) attempts to find a bargain as I work on the basis the layouts will be there all day. I tend to find that layouts being run by Model Railway Clubs/Societies have their operators attired in Club regalia – mostly printed polo shirts and that the scruffier the appearance of the operator, the scruffier the layout is. Far too often I come across layouts which, and I'm being polite here, are 'tired' to say the least (torn backscenes, holes where there shouldn't be any etc). To balance this, I would not necessarily say the beardies/weirdies are not happy to discuss any aspect of the model and would further an observation that the larger the gauge the more unapproachable the operators are and that N gauge users are generally the ones up for a chat and a laugh.
My approach to looking at a layout is that, if I have seen nothing running in a span of 2 minutes or so I will walk away, possibly to return later to see if things have improved as, let's face it', gremlins can strike at any time. I'm no purist so wouldn't know if a loco had the wrong size driving wheels but I do like to see what I believe to be a prototypical train running and take the attitude if the operators want to run what they want then stay at home or in their clubrooms.
I don't believe 'bigger is better' either with layouts or the show itself, although chances are there'll be more traders at the bigger shows. Generally the bigger the show the more malodorous folks can be sensed, due to maybe the sheer numbers/hot weather/inadequate ventilation in some venues. Yes, I do carry a small rucksack but it is at least 25% smaller than some of the ones wielded as weapons by some attendees who seem oblivious to the damage they can cause by a sudden 180 degree turn and the inertia generated by their huge 'bergens'.
I, for one, believe there are many shows which have given me great pleasure and the ones that don't are in a tiny minority. As others have said, our hobby is a broad church and should be closed to no one so I am saddened to see some of the sniping that has occurred in this thread. It would possibly help any potential visitors to shows that we rate things such as signage to the venue, ventilation, lighting, facilities, refreshments, disabled access, layouts etc before giving an overall count out of 10 (although even this would be subjective dependent on an individuals experience of their visit)
Purely a personal observation.
As a man who won't even go to the post box 100 yards along the road without a jacket and tie on I agree that much can be done to smarten up both exhibitors and visitors to model railway shows, and indeed life in general.
Mick, I am immediately reminded of my visit to the Wigan show last year, and you have summed everything up very succinctly. :thumbsup:
George
I think Exhibition's are only as good or as bad as the club yes we here in the UK have many show but of what kind of quality there are many show I give a wide birth too as the elitist get right on --ts if your not fine scale or EM then look down at you even this forum has its elitist group like so many other forums I do wish some times the demi gods would take a deep breath and remember where they come Please NOTE THIS IS ONLY MY OPINION.Mike
Quote from: NeMo on August 04, 2015, 06:19:47 PM
I like seeing layouts that inspire me, regardless of era, scale or even country. I'm almost never inspired by attention to detail though. What gets me is if the layout portrays a place and time so effectively I think I'm there.
<snip>
So long as the layouts are busy and well presented, I don't really care much whether the little pannier tank has the wrong GWR symbol for the year that the cinema posters at the station would seem to suggest.
Cheers, NeMo
Surely part of portraying a place and time effectively is all about getting the detail right. Painting a fence the correct colour or not running a BR 9F with "Gone with the Wind" is showing at the local cinema is all part of making the model more believable.
There have been comments on this thread about tin-plate three rail layouts being enjoyable - they are because of the attention making the detail consistent. Run a tin-plate loco through a town of Hornby Scaledale buildings and some of the magic will be lost.
A well operated layout, built to consistent standards will encourage the experienced modellers and the families on a day out to stay and watch the trains for a while.
Happy modelling.
Steven B.
I'll add my two pennyworth for what it's worth.
Firstly, I've only exhibited at small local shows and I try to have something running all the time. Barring the occasional mishap of course. I have had people give all sorts of comments ranging from "That is fantastic and the best layout here " to "That is only a train set and shouldn't be here at all!". Most people however are very kind and offer their thanks, encouragement or advice/tips.
Most people are genuinely interested in how things have been achieved and it's only my opinion but as long as something is moving they are not really bothered if is prototypically correct or not. Occasionally someone will comment that I have the wrong brakevan for that freight or something similar but that's the way it goes.
Mostly, people will look, if they are interested they will linger if not they will walk on by. That is their choice and doesn't bother me one way or the other.
I do notice however that people are frequently reluctant to ask questions so I try to spot those and try to open up a conversation with them. I frequently find that they then feel happy to ask away. People are often afraid to ask a question for appearing to look silly. Often these are people who want to start building up a model railway and have no inkling where to start.
As for trade stands. I think they are vital and add enormously to the overall appeal of a show. Only trouble is at the last show I attended as an exhibitor I ended up spending close on £200.
I don't take a fee for exhibiting at all and am happy to travel up to 50 miles or so.
I now avoid the big shows completely either as an exhibitor or visitor. There are simply too many people and frankly the last two I've been to have been very disappointing in terms of the quality of layouts being displayed.
Quote from: Steven B on August 05, 2015, 01:13:47 PM
Quote from: NeMo on August 04, 2015, 06:19:47 PM
So long as the layouts are busy and well presented, I don't really care much whether the little pannier tank has the wrong GWR symbol for the year that the cinema posters at the station would seem to suggest.
Cheers, NeMo
Surely part of portraying a place and time effectively is all about getting the detail right. Painting a fence the correct colour or not running a BR 9F with "Gone with the Wind" is showing at the local cinema is all part of making the model more believable.
Steven B.
Ah, but is the film on its first showing? I have seen both "Reach for the Sky" and "The Dambusters" in a cinema in the late 1960s, but both films were made in the early/mid 1950s so is the film on at the local 'fleapit' any real guide?
No doubt someone will have a GWR layout with a poster for "Skyfall" on it, using Rule 1
you could say that a time traveller went back to the Thirties and stuck the poster up
for a prank................ ;D
Quote from: D1042 Western Princess on August 05, 2015, 01:55:19 PM
Ah, but is the film on its first showing? I have seen both "Reach for the Sky" and "The Dambusters" in a cinema in the late 1960s, but both films were made in the early/mid 1950s so is the film on at the local 'fleapit' any real guide?
A very good point ::) I saw the original "The Lady Vanishes" (1938) at my local only a couple of years ago (just to bring in a train-related film !) :P
I do like the word prototypically funny we all use 12volts or my case 16volts dcc so there's is a modellers licence then.mike
Ok lets open up playing field how many exhibition's are more geared up for finescale or em than family show.mike
Quote from: MikeDunn on August 05, 2015, 02:21:50 PM
Quote from: D1042 Western Princess on August 05, 2015, 01:55:19 PM
Ah, but is the film on its first showing? I have seen both "Reach for the Sky" and "The Dambusters" in a cinema in the late 1960s, but both films were made in the early/mid 1950s so is the film on at the local 'fleapit' any real guide?
A very good point ::) I saw the original "The Lady Vanishes" (1938) at my local only a couple of years ago (just to bring in a train-related film !) :P
Along with '' The smallest show on earth'' (train related :D ) , I had the pleasure of screening the above film's at our local 'Flick's ' , in the late 50's on Supa Mk 1's , then passing on to become chief projectionist in the 1960's often wondered why BTH after these superb machines turned out failures like the class 15's .
as for the exhibitions lets see some bigger layouts instead of a lot of dead enders with fiddle yard .
I don't really get this "small children only want to see Thomas etc zoom around" idea.
When I was small I wanted to see layouts that bore some resemblance to the real railway scene - after all I could zoom trains around my oval of track or that of my friends.
I wanted to be inspired to make things better and more realistic - that isn't "elitist" (whatever the term really means) its human nature to wish to improve.
:locked:
I think this proves that people have their own strong opinions on this subject and the discussion will just go round and round each trying to convince the other that they are right.
It has now run its course and will only degenerate is verbal abuse and as this IS the "friendly forum" we will all just have to agree to disagree.
Thanks all for your input.