Well i just read that Bachmann have announced they're hiking their prices by 20% from tomorrow 1/5/14, not sure if thats just for the OO boys, or all of us in the model railway diaspora.
Been mulling over for while now, if i should sell up recoup some of my investment and let the Mrs have the front room back.
I've lost the buzz I used to get from running trains, and doing anything with the layout.
At our Meet Up last weekend, DJMDave alluded to this although he did not name Farish (he just said it wasn't Dapol :D)
That's just to show I was paying attention in class.
That's a shocking increase and I wonder how many pre-orders will be affected :hmmm: :uneasy:
I'm also sure it will have an adverse affect on the numbers entering N gauge modelling and Farish overall sales :thumbsdown:
I wonder if it includes HO scale American, if so my mate will break down and cry.
That's a serious jump... I've got a feeling that they'll loose more than they'll gain.
My wallet can't handle that kind of hike, looks like buying new is no longer viable from Bachmann.... :no:
The other model railway forum reported on Bachmann's trade presentation on why they've increased their prices. It affects all their production in China.
This is primarily due to increased labour costs, but also increased shipping costs. New price lists will be released in a week's time.
Three new tooling items in N will be announced this July.
I'll be even more cautious about what new releases I'll buy in future, no more buying stuff on a whim.
Quote from: gc4946 on April 30, 2014, 09:08:23 PM
The other model railway forum reported on Bachmann's trade presentation on why they've increased their prices. It affects all their production in China.
That'll be rmweb then... I'm sure putting the link to the announcement will help reduce the necessity of paraphrasing...it won't blow this forum up! ;)
http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/85287-bachmann-why-price-increases-are-necessary/ (http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/85287-bachmann-why-price-increases-are-necessary/)
Prices go up while my budget remains the same. Net result = fewer models. :thumbsdown:
Disappointing but not unexpected tha way inflation has been going. My suggestion is to get your pre-orders in now at the box shifter of your choice. A couple of the big ones offer a price promise so you can be sure it will stay at that price.
On a more positive note, looking forward to the 3 new toolings in July (although I hope they get a move-on with the Castle and Hawksworth coaches).
Karhedron,
I also have a Farish Castle on preorder (about 8 months now) so I echo your comments.
Alan
Quote from: AJB on April 30, 2014, 10:05:04 PM
Karhedron,
I also have a Farish Castle on preorder (about 8 months now) so I echo your comments.
Alan
That's at least 3 of us, then :worried:
I have far too much Farish stuff on pre order so will be looking closely at what can be chopped from the list :hmmm:
Its not exactly a surprise...These rises are periodic as labour , material and overheads increase and suppliers such as Bachmann ramp up the prices every few years playing catch up trying to balance the books. Add in a global recession, and the strongest economies are going to shrink slower and grow faster leading to sometimes quite poor exchange rates.
A portion of the rise is statutory wage increases (and stat health care contributions) imposed by Chinese government, as well as lease increases by same on factories and on what they produce, think of it as increased taxation on the factory...though that oversimplifies things considerably. Bachmann/Farish aren't the only ones who will be putting prices up in response to spiralling costs, its just that now is their time before the manufacturing costs bite them, just like Hornby had to do the same a few years ago for exactly the same reasons (before the Sanda Kan buyout), Bachmann had similar hikes a few years ago themselves. Dapol have probably done exactly the same thing in the past too, but with their irregular small batch production and processes split between China and Wales its harder to see. At least Bachmann have been up front and honest about it, and told it pretty much as it is. Rest assured, others will follow. And it'll happen again the next time Chinese costs rise close to the point at which a manufacturers margins wear thin. I use that term loosely, the Factory is the manufacturer, Bachmann/Farish/Dapol et al are merely customers of said facility; just so happens in BachFars case that the customer is a subsidiary of the factories owner. I can guarantee that in a few years time Bachmann will have to hike their prices again. As will Dapol, as will Hornby, and every other labour intensive (read as minimal automation) production line. Even so, after the latest bout of wage rises its STILL cheaper to produce there than it is here by almost 63% (based on the costings we carried out for small volume productions on air pressure monitoring equipment, largely assembled by hand, which is very comparable to the current hand assembly of model railway equipment; and by small production runs I'm talking per 5000 units). To put that into perspective, if a made in China piece of kit that normally costs £100rrp were to be made in the EU, it would cost around £163 for the same item. The biggest advantage that I see currently to manufacture at home is a more stable exchange rate. If Bachmann (or Dapol, or Hornby) were to announce that they were moving production to the UK, but prices were rising by 63% as a result, I somehow doubt that ANYONE would be happy about it. Ok, Hornby have repatriated some manufacturing (paints and a few Airfix kits?)...but those few have been in largely automated lines requiring a minimal workforce, and the prices on those lines went up. There are a good few price hikes in it yet before its worth bringing manufacturing close to home, and I'll bet India, Africa or South America will see manufacturing move there as China begins to price itself out of the market, long before we see anything back in any worthwhile scale.
It wont worry me to much because I always buy second hand but the hobby is expensive enough as it is, with utility costs going going through the roof and everyday essentials costing an arm and a leg many modellers may have to stop buying new.
After reading the full RMWeb thread it came through load and clear that super detail locos are another thing that has pushed prices up, it might be time to go back to the old Lima. Minitrix and GF moulds to save a quid.
Quote from: longbridge on May 01, 2014, 04:58:56 AM
After reading the full RMWeb thread it came through load and clear that super detail locos are another thing that has pushed prices up, it might be time to go back to the old Lima. Minitrix and GF moulds to save a quid.
It's not necessarily a question of going backwards, if the models Union Mills make can satisfy your needs. For sure they're compromised in terms of detail, but they're rock-solid in terms of mechanics, and of the handful of steam engines I have, my Union Mills one is the only one I don't worry about breaking! By contrast Farish and Dapol tender engines especially look amazing but are really delicate, with all sorts of bits threatening to fall off at the slightest abuse.
On the other hand, as others have said, maybe we're going to have to settle for buying one really nice locomotive versus two compromised ones from Dapol or Farish. Both companies have at times done amazing jobs (as with the Dapol 'Western') but they've also released a few premium-priced models with inexplicable flaws (like the Farish Cl. 24). Perhaps both will have to work harder to ensure their models look and run amazingly well if they're going to sell them in the volumes they want.
Cheers, NeMo
Our currency exchange rate has got worse so it's a double whammy for me :( but it will never put me off the hobby, I'll just appreciate what I already have and think very carefully about future purchases. And keep an eye out for second hand bargains.
I won't stop buying, I'll just buy less. I'm fortunate that I already have most of what I need, I don't envy new railway modellers with lots to buy.
If I had any spare cash at the moment I'd be looking to buy stock that's in the shops now before the 20% increase.
Regards
Veronica.
Just hope they don't do what they did last time, the model numbers were cancelled and then reappeared later under new numbers so any pre-orders weren't valid. Had this with some Dapol stuff and both companies I had pre-orders with cancelled the orders as items no longer available and lo and behold, a couple months later they re-appeared with new coding. :veryangry:
Quote from: Karhedron on April 30, 2014, 09:13:06 PM
Prices go up while my budget remains the same. Net result = fewer models. :thumbsdown:
Disappointing but not unexpected tha way inflation has been going. My suggestion is to get your pre-orders in now at the box shifter of your choice. A couple of the big ones offer a price promise so you can be sure it will stay at that price.
On a more positive note, looking forward to the 3 new toolings in July (although I hope they get a move-on with the Castle and Hawksworth coaches).
This has prompted me to pre-order a new 4F 0-6-0 tender loco from that place in Liverpool. I had been meaning to for a while.
The price hike comes as no real surprise but for me the size of it in one "hit" does although DJM Dave did hint that it was coming (albeit no manufacturer name was given).
Will it impact my buying habits? Well yes, in reality what it means is that where I might have bought five items now I will buy four more selectively with less purchases on a "whim".
Roy
Quote from: Zunnan on April 30, 2014, 11:48:54 PM
I can guarantee that in a few years time Bachmann will have to hike their prices again.
Safe bet, seeing as the article said something about Bachmann are going to do a 20% increase
every year until 2019 ... And I also note that this 20% is said to be a 'rough figure' - so it's another safe bet it will be more ...
Quote
If Bachmann (or Dapol, or Hornby) were to announce that they were moving production to the UK, but prices were rising by 63% as a result, I somehow doubt that ANYONE would be happy about it.
I don't recall price drops when they send production to China, do you ? They took in the increase in profits, now it's biting them.
Let's assume a particular model costs £100 - a 63% increase would put it at £163. That
same model, going through this
20% YOY increase will be -
wait for it -
£248 in 2019 !!!Let's
further assume that the locally-produced item (in 2015) @ £163 gets a YOY increase of 5% - that puts the 2019 price @ £198, that is £50 less than China ... 5% not realistic ? OK, let's pick 10% - 2019 price is now £207 -
still £41 cheaper !!!So in this set of circumstances,
yes I would be happier to have it locally !!! Not only does it come out as cheaper (yes, I know, there will be a
lot of variables no-one has even thought of affecting this), but we also have the jobs in
this country, with all the taxes etc
staying in this country.
It is evident that the time of China being a cheap manufacturer is coming to a close, if indeed for small production items such as our toy trains it hasn't already done so. Where next ? Indonesia ? Vietnam ? India ? Or just bite the bullet & bring them all back locally again ... as Hornby has begun to do in a small scale.
I'll still buy the models - but my selection will be
even more targeted than it currently is, and I will be looking for the best price I can find (fortunately, this currently is my local shop who regularly undercut Hattons & RoS) for the fewer ones I will buy.
It would be good to see production return to the UK if quality/cost is achievable. One wonders if it would be viable for a factory to be setup in a deprived area (e.g. Welsh valleys) which would attract government/EU grants etc. and provide much needed employment in those areas. The factory would need orders from all the players to get economies scale. Doubt it would be viable with just one owner e.g. Hornby. Probably such cooperation between companies is no doubt considered anti competitive! :-)
Best
Paddy
Or it could be good for them as panic buying to grab the at now prices empties the shelves ready to make way for the new models or guarantee upcoming pre order sales
Or am I being a little too "conspiracy theory"
Bart
Maybe they'll increase the current offered discount of 15% to 30% :hmmm:
Blimey - there's a whole squadron of pigs just flown over the house :goggleeyes:
You're so funny
Bart
Are European rtr products like Minitrix, Fleischmann, Arnold etc still made in Europe ? If far eastern costs
go up steeply European models might end up similar in price to Farish and Dapol.
The flying pigs would go nicely with 1:144 scale warbirds :D
Quote from: Agrippa on May 01, 2014, 11:28:49 AM
Are European rtr products like Minitrix, Fleischmann, Arnold etc still made in Europe ? If far eastern costs
go up steeply European models might end up similar in price to Farish and Dapol.
Some are still made in Europe yes. Likewise most Peco is UK made, Union Mills is UK made. Union Mills prices have oddly enough not changed a lot over the time 8)
Think I need to go and relist all my N'porium listings at a 20% higher price :beers:
Marklin repatriated all production from China to a factory in Europe. It produces everything they sell - Marklin, Trix, Minitrix, LGB. The factory is in Hungary to take advantage of lower costs than Germany; residual manufacturing operations in Germany (e.g. the rump LGB operation in Nuremburg) were closed. Batch production seems to be the order of the day, but then that's true in the far east, some quality problems at least to begin with but nothing compared to the merchandise coming from China (certainly as far as LGB production was concerned).
Quote from: EtchedPixels on May 01, 2014, 02:19:56 PMUnion Mills is UK made. Union Mills prices have oddly enough not changed a lot over the time
Being pedantic, the Isle of Man is NOT part of the UK, and compared to the UK as a relatively high cost economy!
and to compare a one man band who needs to do little more than cover his costs with a multinational corporation with the demands of cash hungry corporate and political master to satisfy is questionable anyway...
This is very interesting. Makes Union Mills even more attractive, from a pricing point of view.
I have a habit of watching the inventory levels on the Hattons website and making note of what's selling and what is not. For instance Dapol Class 22s still are not shifting even after a 12 quid price reduction quite some time ago; they are simply still too expensive for such a niche loco.
I will be curious to see what sells at the new prices, but for me personally I think I will be waiting to see what is left for scraps when Bachmann have a big inventory clear out sale like they seem to every few years.
I now more fully appreciate the wisdom of Hattons decision to make a big push into the second hand market. As prices on the new models become more dear sales on new models will decline unless it is willing to take a smaller margi; profits will drop in either case. But with second hand models, Hattons has much more freedom to set prices to sustain the margins it requires.
Matt
The pound is strong against the Dollar - how is it against the Rembini?
This could temporarily offset the price rises???
This was was due to come at some point hornby had 4 he hike a few years back we all moaned then but we all kept buying there models. Bachmann is in a bit of a sticky wicket were hornby could move production else were bachmann might be stuck in China due to kadar
Daz
I consider myself very lucky, that my tin plated local government pension has gone up by 2.7% this year. That is £28 a month, if you need to know. I shall, therefore, continue to ignore the new products, and carry on buying used from toy fairs, exhibitions, etc.
I know my place!
Quote from: oreamnos on May 02, 2014, 05:58:07 PM
I now more fully appreciate the wisdom of Hattons decision to make a big push into the second hand market. As prices on the new models become more dear sales on new models will decline unless it is willing to take a smaller margi; profits will drop in either case. But with second hand models, Hattons has much more freedom to set prices to sustain the margins it requires.
All these price hikes can only push up the prices of secondhand models in time too.
Cheers,
Alan
Quote from: PLD on June 08, 1974, 07:06:24 AM
and to compare a one man band who needs to do little more than cover his costs with a multinational corporation with the demands of cash hungry corporate and political master to satisfy is questionable anyway...
And without the economies of scale.
As a customer big v small doesn't matter. Bachmann will soon ne 150 quid a loco and UM is 80!
Quote from: EtchedPixels on May 02, 2014, 08:39:22 PM
Quote from: PLD on June 08, 1974, 07:06:24 AM
and to compare a one man band who needs to do little more than cover his costs with a multinational corporation with the demands of cash hungry corporate and political master to satisfy is questionable anyway...
And without the economies of scale.
As a customer big v small doesn't matter. Bachmann will soon ne 150 quid a loco and UM is 80!
True, but it depends what you want.
A fairer comparison might be that a UM 0-6-0 tender loco will cost circa £70, For that you get a solid if basic model which is well engineered.
A similar (say) Farish 0-6-0 J39 currently discounts to £72 and if one is pessimistic may go up to say £100 over the next couple of years. For that you get a highly detailed model which is equally well engineered, reliable and DCC ready - is the price differential therefore actually that great?
Roy
They can ask us to pay whatever price they like, but if we simply can't afford it and stop buying it will backfire on them. I hope it's not 20% but if it is then my plans for a number of items are going to be very much cut back.
There have been plenty of cases in the past of companies going "one step too far" with pricing.
I hope this isn't going to be the case with Bachmann but 20% is 20%.
I for one will be thinking VERY carefully about further purchases .
Quote from: Roy L S on May 02, 2014, 09:29:23 PM
A similar (say) Farish 0-6-0 J39 currently discounts to £72 and if one is pessimistic may go up to say £100 over the next couple of years.
Pessimistic ? No, this is what Bachmann are stating ...
£72 this year, around £86 next, around £104 in '16, around £125 in '17, around £150 in '18 and around £180 in '19. Don't believe me ? Re-read their statement & get out your calculator ...
Quote
is the price differential therefore actually that great?
Let's say UM increase 5% YOY ... £70 this year, £73 next, then £77, £81, £85 and then £89. A 10% YOY gives £77, £85, £93, £102 and £113. That's quite a difference.
Quote from: EtchedPixels on May 01, 2014, 02:19:56 PM
Union Mills prices have oddly enough not changed a lot over the time
So we may see an
even greater difference than the 5% I illustrated first ...
Quote from: port perran on May 02, 2014, 10:10:22 PM
There have been plenty of cases in the past of companies going "one step too far" with pricing.
I hope this isn't going to be the case with Bachmann but 20% is 20%.
I for one will be thinking VERY carefully about further purchases .
You, me, and a lot of the purchasers ... although it's interesting to see how many feel such a large increase is valid ... Will they still think that when the increases hit again, and their salary / pensions drop
further behind ... ?
Simple really, every one swap to building US layouts where you can buy more reliable locos for a fraction of the cost, that way Bachmann sales will fall and they will have to look for other solutions rather than the lazy option of putting up their prices and making modellers suffer.
Quote from: Lawrence on May 02, 2014, 10:48:27 PM
Simple really, every one swap to building US layouts where you can but more reliable locos for a fraction of the cost, that way Bachmann sales will fall and they will have to look for other solutions rather than the lazy option of putting up their prices and making modellers suffer.
Great suggestion Lawrence, I doubt Bachmann America will increase the cost of their locos, they are already on the nose.
I wonder if the British modellers are subsidiseing the American market as there has been no mention of American prices going up ??? ??? ???
Quote from: Roy L S on May 02, 2014, 09:29:23 PM
A fairer comparison might be that a UM 0-6-0 tender loco will cost circa £70, For that you get a solid if basic model which is well engineered.
A similar (say) Farish 0-6-0 J39 currently discounts to £72 and if one is pessimistic may go up to say £100 over the next couple of years. For that you get a highly detailed model which is equally well engineered, reliable and DCC ready - is the price differential therefore actually that great?
Roy
The J39 is actually a good Benchmark being the one model currently available in 'Basic' (UM) and 'Detailed' (Farish) formats.
Hands up all those who have bought the UM version since the Farish one was released. - I bet there are very few unwilling to pay the current c15% @RRP difference for the higher spec. The test comes in the next few years as the margin (we assume) will increase... Will sales of the UM version pick up again? Truth is we don't know and won't do for several years...
Quote from: MikeDunn on May 02, 2014, 10:19:20 PM
Pessimistic ? No, this is what Bachmann are stating ...
Actually Mike, No it isn't what Bachmann are stating at all; it is what some comentators wishing to bash Bachmann are stating based on their own assumptions of details not yet published and misinterpretation of what was in the statement released...
Other than a few examples (all 00 models) Bachman have not yet released any revised prices for this year let alone in 5 years time! They have said an average across all ranges of upto 20%
this year (some will be a bit more, others quite a lot less) with
unspecified rises likely in subsequent years.
This years large rises are stated as including a corrective element for previous factory cost rises not passed on to the customer and some rebalancing on certain products that were actually selling at below cost!
The spurious "20% year-on-year" which is being bandied around and used to extrapolate some of the ridiculous figures you and others are presenting is the Chinese STATE IMPOSED wage rise. Labour costs are estimated by the more reliable sources at between 35% and 45% of current cost base, so other things being equal that implies a 7-9% year-on-year increase at the factory gate.
Received my kernows newsletter this morning and they are suggesting get in and buy now especially coaches.
A good sale static I reckon!
Over here in oz if it does go ahead I know one set that won't sell and that's the farish BP as it is currently floating close to A$500 in some hobby shops so a big increase will for sure kill its sales
Bart
There have been various threads on whether we have too much stock for our layouts, with some comments being somewhat derisory where this situation exists.
I, for one, am now glad I have far too much stock but consider this..............
Anyone who has their prized N gauge collection insured should reconsider the value as the cost of replacement has just increased vastly, thus a knock on effect on insurance premiums will have to be taken into account :hmmm:
There are similar discussions on RMWeb about Hornby's price increases so the price hikes aren't just confined to Bachmann items.
A new Hornby LNER teak sleeper coach is listed at 59 pounds on Hatton's website!! You used to be able to get a loco for that price.
I won't stop buying, I'm a model railway addict but I will be thinking very carefully about future purchases.
It's not entirely a bad thing to appreciate what you already have and to value any future purchases even more. When we were young we used to have to save up our pocket money to buy things, looks like we'll be doing it again.
Having drastically overbought for my planned new layout, I've been steadily selling off items but, apart from having to buy at least one Graham Farish N and some pre-BR design coaching stock, I think I'll appreciate what I already have and think very carefully about future purchases. And, as I've always done, keep an eye out for secondhand bargains. (eBay will be making even more money out of us!)
Like others, I won't stop buying, I'll just buy less and think very carefully about whether I really need it. (Having a WTT is a big help.). I'm fortunate that I already have nearly everything I need for 1961 - 1969 (and I only need a few items in BR Blue as services were far less by the late 1960s). I also don't envy new railway modellers with lots to buy. The GWR branch terminus will be even more popular!
Like others, I'm pleased I have bought what some folk think as too many locos and rolling stock for the size of my current and planned layout.
I've just ordered a GF class N to 'top up' what may well be the final addition to my pre-order book. As Caz says, I wonder how many of the long-awaited models will be re-coded to avoid holding pre-order prices.
Should they suit your modelling era(s), UM locos are certainly worth consideration.
Dave G
When I read of the price increases last night I was more than stunned at the 20%. Most of what I feel about these huge increases has already been said. Like others I am amazed at the comments praising them for their honesty and forthrightness in laying it all bare. There have been other companies not related to model railways who have made huge price increases, and it has been their downfall. People can accept small annual rises but this huge increase will I think back-fire on them. It will be interesting to see if Dapol are caught in the same situation, or simply follow suit with price increases of the same level if they see those made by Farish are not too damaging to them. I will be like others and really think "do I REALLY need this item" There will always be those who will buy a desired item whatever. A member of staff in a local M.R. retailer said he reckons some of their customers go without what most of us feel are essentials to buy the latest item. I was planning on a 64xx Pannier or two, a couple of Castles, and a couple of Granges. I actually have plenty of locos and rolling stock so may make the most of what I have. The Langley County body I have ready to go on a Hall chassis has suddenly become attractive once again...!
A Union Mills 'Black Motor' 700 Class would just fit my 1961 start date for Cant Cove (and Penmayne) but can they be DCC-fitted?
I will pre-order one GF N from that well-known Liverpool emporium but I suspect it will (unprototypically) be the only one as I can diagram GF Bulleid Light Pacifics (of which I have a nice fleet) and, later, GF BR Standard 4MT 2-6-4Ts (of which I also have a nice little fleet) instead.
I have a pair of old GF "Castles" left after my sell-off which I will keep; one was bought detailed and, frankly, they are good enough models so I had not planned to buy any new "Castles" anyway. A "Grange" would be very useful for a Cornish layout but there is, indeed, the kit body to go on a Hall chassis available and that may well be the choice I make, in the future. Until then I have detailed Dapol "Manor". As for a 64XX, I have one Dapol 14XX, several 57XXs (mainly GF but one DCC-fitted Dapol), plenty of 45XX and 4575s and 64XXs weren't seen in North Cornwall (but then neither were 14XXs, but mine will be just bought for preservation by Bodmin GWS) I may well pass on buying a 64XX new.
I noted the previous comment on Dapol Class 22s not seeming to sell well and as they were the diesel locos. most used in North Cornwall may well buy a pair of BR Blue ones at the current reduced prices to add to my three BR Green ones.
I'm very glad that I stocked up on GF Class 03s and 04s, last year! Plus one BR Blue Class 08 but, ideally, I would like a BR Green one, too. But, if prices do go up by 20% I may give that a miss, too, as, frankly, I don't NEED one.
I think a 20% hike in prices WILL result in lower sales as many N Gauge buyers seem to be retired people living on fixed incomes with increased utility bills to pay. Also, let's not forget that the only way governments can reduce their huge debts is to let inflation take off . . . Now is indeed time to buy!
Hello all, new on the forum and havn't got around to saying Hi yet so sorry about that, but I saw this thread.... I have returned to N Gauge after many years and will admit I'm finding it an expensive hobby to get back into, so am buying second hand and new bargains to stretch my limited funds. I read the news of 20% price hikes with dismay and to be honest am wondering if I will be able to buy anything new in the future!
I know the quality and detail of models has changed so much since I last enjoyed the lure of N gauge but when the price of a new loco nears the £100 mark I get very nervous about spending my cash on it ans now there will/may be 20% on top!
I'm sure if the firm who I work for increased prices by that amount they would have no customers left as other firms snap up the business. But with just two big players in the UK N gauge market....
Perhaps Hornby have it right? - producing their standard range but also the Railroad range for those on a limited budget or who are less worried about fine detail. Perhaps Dapol and Farish could follow suit.
One last thought though, I read about the good work some are doing trying to encourage the younger people into the hobby - isn't a 20% rise in prices at least going to undermine this work and put some, or many, of these young people who are the future of the hobby off?
Stuart
Quote from: PLD on May 02, 2014, 11:18:48 PM
Hands up all those who have bought the UM version since the Farish one was released. - I bet there are very few unwilling to pay the current c15% @RRP difference for the higher spec. The test comes in the next few years as the margin (we assume) will increase... Will sales of the UM version pick up again? Truth is we don't know and won't do for several years...
It's more complicated than that - how many haven't bought the Farish J39 as they have the UM one....is the UM one even available currently (UM do batches too)....etc etc. UM also have a firm following who would buy UM regardless of the detail issue etc just because of their solid running characteristics.
I know I haven't changed my UM model - though I've had it next to the Farish one and the UM shape and general dimensions are all very close (assuming the Farish to be correct).
Cheers,
Alan
Welcome to NGF Stuart :wave::
Regarding these price rises, maybe I'm mistaken but aren't new locos still very much cheaper in real terms than they used to be, say in the late 70s to early 80s? :hmmm:
When I was a teenager and my brother first went out to work (1982?) a brand new Minitrix loco was still a major purchase only to be made every three or four months, not something to just buy on a whim? Even at the height of our 6'x3' N gauge layout we had no more than half a dozen locos taking turns on maybe ten different trains. Have we all just got too used to cheap prices and fiddle yards or TMDs stacked full of engines not doing anything?
Personally I've only bought what I essentially NEED to run my layout with a decent selection and haven't found it too arduous so far. I have just two freight locos that will take turns on five different rakes of wagons, and my two HSTs and Class 91/DVT set will share the two rakes of Intercity coaches (yes I know I should have MK4s for the '91, but who cares? ;) ). Biggest outlay on new powered items has really been on DMUs (2x108s and 4x156s), and even those I don't consider to have been exceptionally expensive considering you get a coach with it as well in a 2-car set. I would like more locos certainly, but in balancing life in general and a car hobby they can happily wait.
This is not to demean those who have numerous new locos by any means, especially if you have worked to get into such a fortunate position, good luck to you :thumbsup: What I think we need to get away from is the expectation that every layout needs umpteen shiny new locos on it and every rake of wagons or coaches must have its own loco, because I certainly don't remember things being that way 30 years ago and was truly mesmerized to see a large exhibition layout with more than a dozen locos! :goggleeyes:
Paul
Quote from: Dr Al on May 03, 2014, 10:14:47 AM
Quote from: PLD on May 02, 2014, 11:18:48 PM
Hands up all those who have bought the UM version since the Farish one was released. - I bet there are very few unwilling to pay the current c15% @RRP difference for the higher spec. The test comes in the next few years as the margin (we assume) will increase... Will sales of the UM version pick up again? Truth is we don't know and won't do for several years...
It's more complicated than that - how many haven't bought the Farish J39 as they have the UM one....is the UM one even available currently (UM do batches too)....etc etc. UM also have a firm following who would buy UM regardless of the detail issue etc just because of their solid running characteristics.
I know I haven't changed my UM model - though I've had it next to the Farish one and the UM shape and general dimensions are all very close (assuming the Farish to be correct).
Cheers,
Alan
Absolutely, UM has a loyal following of people who favour his approach and will continue to buy his products regardless. He produces in much smaller batches and I suspect would not be in a position to gear up for larger production even if he wanted to (which he does not seem to). In the past he has even told me he was reluctant to advertise too extensively for fear of emptying his stock cupboard too rapidly!
The UM J39 is not currentlly listed by him. Logically this is because of the Farish release although he has not said that. Whether one chooses to look through rose coloured spectacles or not, the Farish loco is a far superior product, there is no getting away from that. I for one have just sold my last complete UM J39 on ebay (I still have one in bits).
I think one also has to read the Bachmann brief a bit more carefully. Increases will not all be 20%, the examples they give illustrate this, the 00 E4 is going up "only" 10%. Given the smaller labour element of simpler models it is possible not everything will go up that much.
Let's also not forget UM sell direct, no middle-man, no dealer mark-up. Were he (for example) to decide to increase production significantly could he still do this?
I am not saying that UM will not to some extent be beneficiaries of the price-hikes but neither he nor his business model is the solution.
However as mentioned on another thread there are potentially simple cost savings to be had right now. The bits bags we find in almost all Farish locos now are likely put together manually at not insignificant labour cost. Do we NEED a spare scale wheeled bogie? I have dozens of them unused. Do we NEED a set of scale valve guides to fit for display - for most unlikely, do we NEED etched brass nameplates to go over very acceptable tampo-printed ones? Can those who want these bits pay seperately for them shipped in bulk to Barwell?
Another example. I am currenly scratch building a Reid J37 0-6-0 using a stripped Farish 4MT chassis as a base (DCC board removed). When altering the tender chassis I was astonished to find that the sand boxes and steps are all seperate fittings. Surely this is completely unnecessary with modern tooling techniques and can only add to labour costs?
Roy
I hope they keep doing the scale bogies for collector and didplay use. They are an excellent source of wheels for projects!
Alan
Quote from: longbridge on May 02, 2014, 11:02:16 PM
I wonder if the British modellers are subsidiseing the American market as there has been no mention of American prices going up ??? ??? ???
More likely that the much larger American market makes it easier to make economies of scale. Static cost increases (i.e. those that are not on a "per unit" basis) can be spread over much larger production runs.
Quote from: Roy L S on May 03, 2014, 11:01:10 AM
Let's also not forget UM sell direct, no middle-man, no dealer mark-up. Were he (for example) to decide to increase production significantly could he still do this?
Roy
That's a very good point,
Les Roy :-[ ;)
From my experience as a salesman for a manufacturer, the margin for each rung in the supply chain ladder is between 25-30% so is a very telling factor in Colin's pricing v Farish :hmmm:
Yes, U.S. prototype models are likely to continue to be far cheaper for a given level of detail because the market is far larger which enables FIXED costs to be spread over a much larger number of units and, once, all fixed costs have been covered there are only the variable costs to be paid which means far higher profits per unit sold. With, as I understand it, all manufacturers of British prototype models using short production runs, costs will only get higher per unit as both fixed and variable costs are likely to, at least, continue to increase with the prevailing inflation rate.
FIXED COST = A cost, such as rent, that is constant whatever the amount of goods produced (i.e. does not change with an increase or decrease in the amount of goods).
VARIABLE COST = A cost that varies depending on a company's production volume; it varies in direct proportion to the quantity of output. Examples are: labour, raw material, energy, transport. None of these are likely to decrease in real terms. (And, if production were moved to a lower cost location, then transport costs may be higher; so no overall decrease in variable costs.)
Apologies for the lecture!
The Hornby strategy of having two ranges: one with adequate detailing and accuracy, and another with higher detailing, may well work in N gauge, too, IMHO. It is a common product range strategy in other industries. Higher detailing is, anyway, only noticeable close-up. From a normal viewing distance, IMHO, old Graham Farish locos. and rolling stock look pretty realistic still.
Quote from: PLD on May 02, 2014, 11:38:09 PM
Actually Mike, No it isn't what Bachmann are stating at all; it is what some comentators wishing to bash Bachmann are stating based on their own assumptions of details not yet published and misinterpretation of what was in the statement released...
Other than a few examples (all 00 models) Bachman have not yet released any revised prices for this year let alone in 5 years time! They have said an average across all ranges of upto 20% this year (some will be a bit more, others quite a lot less) with unspecified rises likely in subsequent years.
This years large rises are stated as including a corrective element for previous factory cost rises not passed on to the customer and some rebalancing on certain products that were actually selling at below cost!
The spurious "20% year-on-year" which is being bandied around and used to extrapolate some of the ridiculous figures you and others are presenting is the Chinese STATE IMPOSED wage rise. Labour costs are estimated by the more reliable sources at between 35% and 45% of current cost base, so other things being equal that implies a 7-9% year-on-year increase at the factory gate.
Agreed. Significant misunderstanding, misrepresentation and doomsaying about the mooted price rises.
The stated wage increase was to double the base salary in 5 years and on a simple increment basis is 20% of the current wage per year not compounded over 5 years to unsustainable levels.
Unless the cost of production is all labour (not feasible) then a 20% price hike this year is not just labour cost increases. Posts elsewhere suggests a significant part of the price increase is due to changes in business and accounting practices within the parent company.
Amazing that some praise Bachmann for discussing the mooted price hike, we used to call the advance notice of significant changes to service and prices "damage control"; a common tactic of politicians in office.
Personally I will wait for the new pricing for each batch release to decide if I consider it value for money rather than get uptight about an unknown.
CFJ
Only for those really interested in economics:
"In the case of China . . . wage increases have easily outpaced labor productivity growth."
"Foreign hourly labor costs are but one factor to consider in the overall labor cost equation. When deciding whether it is better to manufacture outside the United States, companies should also consider rising wages, lower productivity, difficulty with turnover [employees not staying], and relatively high labor market risks. Looking at the entire labor cost equation demonstrates the soundness of manufacturing in the United States."
http://acetool.commerce.gov/labor-costs (http://acetool.commerce.gov/labor-costs)
Quote from: NinOz on May 03, 2014, 01:34:20 PM
Personally I will wait for the new pricing for each batch release to decide if I consider it value for money rather than get uptight about an unknown.
CFJ
Yeah, no point about giving yourself a heart attack until actual details
become known. There used to be news announcements every few years
that a pint would go up to £1.50, £2.00, £3.00 etc , end of civilisation
as we know it.
People will probably moan and groan and then carry on as before.
Quote from: Chris in Prague on May 03, 2014, 01:30:27 PM
The Hornby strategy of having two ranges: one with adequate detailing and accuracy, and another with higher detailing, may well work in N gauge, too, IMHO.
In practice, Dapol do this already. A class 22 can be had for £99 at a certain Scouse box-shifter. A Hymek on the other hand can be had for £79. Both are BoBo locos with a pretty similar sphere of operation. The older and slightly less refined Hymek is £20 cheaper.
Dapol do not offer a defined "Railroad" category but their practice of offering older models at around the same price they were when first released does a similar job and offers a sliding scale. Dapol's business model is to recoup their R&D costs with the initial run. Since subsequent runs will only have to cover production costs and profit margin, they can afford to insulate these from inflation to some extent.
Their plans to rerun some of their older tank locos at budget prices confirms this and will probably work out well for them. In spite of the known issues like pulling power, M7s still fetch very respectable prices on eBay suggesting there is a market for older models. Unlike the first batches, they should now be covered by Dapol's 2-year warranty meaning they can be bought with a bit more confidence.
This is the well-known marketing strategy of 'price skimming': When companies 'skim' during new product launch, they are selling to customers with a high willingness to pay. Once this market is depleted (or at least slows down), the company lowers the price to sell to the next tier of customers. This benefits everyone. I had not realised, before, that this is what Dapol is, in fact, doing. However, I've heard that the moulds for the Dapol Hymeks will soon be destroyed so there will be no more. Similarly, a final run of the older Dapol tank engines has been reported as last runs before their moulds are destroyed. If I was in Dapol's marketing dept., I would certainly be monitoring average selling prices on eBay (very valuable free market research).
Quote from: Chris in Prague on May 03, 2014, 01:30:27 PM
With, as I understand it, all manufacturers of British prototype models using short production runs
The Hornby strategy of having two ranges: one with adequate detailing and accuracy, and another with higher detailing, may well work in N gauge, too, IMHO.
Higher detailing is, anyway, only noticeable close-up. From a normal viewing distance, IMHO, old Graham Farish locos. and rolling stock look pretty realistic still.
Dapol and Farish have significantly different production runs for both a model and livery.
There is insufficient market in N to even consider doing a two-tier approach - it would be commercial suicide.
Many of the old Graham Farish locos weren't even the right shape or dimensionally accurate! Apart from a well-worn phrase beloved of Railway Modeller reviews what is a normal viewing distance? It differs for every single layout...
Cheers, Mike
It seems that Dapol does, indeed, have a de facto two-tier market (pricing) approach which makes perfect sense. You only have to look at how quickly and for what prices old Graham Farish BR Mark 1 Standard coaches sell for on eBay to know that I am not alone in thinking that 'normal viewing' distances they look fine. 'Normal viewing' distances, I define as being very close-up to the viewer (which is how close you have to hold a N Gauge model to appreciate the fine details). However, I accept that normal viewing distance differs with each layout.
Quote from: Chris in Prague on May 03, 2014, 04:26:55 PM
However, I've heard that the moulds for the Dapol Hymeks will soon be destroyed so there will be no more.
What a brilliant idea - take a superb and popular model then rather than make hundreds of thousands of them to sell at a reasonable price they destroy the moulds. What a waste.
Today I've just bought a Farish A1 Tornado in blue and two carriages from Rails before the price rises, funded by disposing of unwanted OO stock that took up too much space at home.
I think more of us will have to dispose of unwanted stock in future in order to pay for more desirable additions to our collections.
Our modelling will have to be more focused to make best use of time and finance.
To some extent it'll return to the situation years ago before UK manufacture moved to the Far East.
The used market will be much larger as a result.
Moulds wear out. I doubt anyone is destroying good moulds. Given they were intended for low volumes they'll probably be quite soft. There is also a *lot* of metal in a modern high pressure mould so you don't want to store/keep shot ones.
Alan
Quote from: D1042 Western Princess on May 03, 2014, 05:08:28 PM
Quote from: Chris in Prague on May 03, 2014, 04:26:55 PM
However, I've heard that the moulds for the Dapol Hymeks will soon be destroyed so there will be no more.
What a brilliant idea - take a superb and popular model then rather than make hundreds of thousands of them to sell at a reasonable price they destroy the moulds. What a waste.
That way they can keep the prices high for new ones (and, as well, the second hand trade; however, I've already sold my spare 3rd Hymek to a NGF member and, having had the other two renumbered as Plymouth Laira examples and nicely lightly weathered they won't be resold).
Quote from: D1042 Western Princess on May 03, 2014, 05:08:28 PM
Quote from: Chris in Prague on May 03, 2014, 04:26:55 PM
However, I've heard that the moulds for the Dapol Hymeks will soon be destroyed so there will be no more.
What a brilliant idea - take a superb and popular model then rather than make hundreds of thousands of them to sell at a reasonable price they destroy the moulds. What a waste.
The Numbers for a Dapol production run are normally 1000, which is normally then split between different liveries, Kato would produce in the 100,000 sort of mark but not british manufacturers.
Also the two "british" manufacturers try and pay off the mould from the first production run of a model, if they spread the cost over the amount of production runs they were expecting to produce that might reduce the price, but that would require a long term business plan
One point to remember is that British N gauge is a niche market within
British outline modelling which is itself a niche market compared with
North American and European N and HO products , and with limited
production runs in foreign owned factories will suffer from increasing
costs which N modellers here will have to put up with.
Unlike far eastern made cameras, dvd players, computers etc
which can be sold worldwide British models have a fairly limited
market.
moan, moan, moan, if we are daft enought to purchase it they put up the prices, same with petrol comes tomorrow back we go to buy more :D
alan
Quote from: D1042 Western Princess on May 03, 2014, 05:08:28 PM
Quote from: Chris in Prague on May 03, 2014, 04:26:55 PM
However, I've heard that the moulds for the Dapol Hymeks will soon be destroyed so there will be no more.
What a brilliant idea - take a superb and popular model then rather than make hundreds of thousands of them to sell at a reasonable price they destroy the moulds. What a waste.
I am not sure where this rumour came from but I would take it with a generous pinch of salt. Dapol have never destroyed a mold before, why would they start now? Their old tank engines have not been produced for years but they have dusted the molds off for another run. The Hymek has been a consistent good seller what possible reason would they have for destroying the mold?
A friend told me that he read the Hymek mould story in a railway modelling magazine. I'd have to dig out his message to find out which one. Maybe, as Alan wrote, the moulds cannot be used anymore?
Quote from: mr bachmann on May 03, 2014, 07:12:33 PM
moan, moan, moan, if we are daft enought to purchase it they put up the prices, same with petrol comes tomorrow back we go to buy more :D
alan
I think there's a world of difference there, Alan, in that if we refused to buy petrol we probably can't get to work so lose the job and then can't buy anything but misery. Model railways are a 'luxury' hobby, not a necessity. Although if I wanted a cheap hobby I'd take up
ora origar paper folding :-[
Not all great hobbies are as expensive as ours.
I had a sticky at the model plane engines in our local hobby shop the other day, as an ex control line addict I think motors are cheaper today than in the 1960s and 70s, the planes don't seem grossly overpriced either,
A model Tug about 30 inches long with radio control and motor only costs about $200au but a Farish Black 5 costs about $249 in the same shop.
I think railway modellers are being ripped off, that is why I buy only second hand, 95% of what I buy is as good as new.
There are some misunderstandings on here:
The numbers for a Dapol production are not a 1000. As I said it depends entirely on the model produced and has varied greatly by model and by livery. Some runs have been as small as 150 - 250 per livery (with multiple liveries per model), others have been much higher though I can't remember the the top end of the production range. Dapol's production runs seem to have more flexibility than Farish so Dapol can (and do) run lower quantities of both liveries and total production run of a particular model than Farish.
Dapol and Farish do spread the cost over more than just the first production run (well certainly Farish do in most cases - I'm aware of one model that might not be the case).
The Hymek mould is not being destroyed - it is a question of how much wear the mould has had and how much life it has left. There are various grades of tooling normally connected to how hard the tool is, softer tooling is generally cheaper but lasts for a shorter number of shots.
Cheers, Mike
(NGS Product Development Officer)
Quote from: longbridge on May 03, 2014, 10:00:11 PM
Not all great hobbies are as expensive as ours.
I think railway modellers are being ripped off, that is why I buy only second hand, 95% of what I buy is as good as new.
No you are right, some are much more expensive! Look at the price of guitars, or bikes or climbing equipment.
If we are being ripped off, why are Hornby and Bachmann making losses? Whilst Hornby's losses could be to do with the Olympics fiasco and loss of their manufacturer (Sanda Kan - now owned by Kader/Bachmann and the factory closed down), Bachmann have specifically said they made losses on some models last year. They could be lying to us, but I don't think any of us have any proof of that....
Model trains have been cheap for 5-10 years (but they weren't always cheap) and hoping that they will stay cheap isn't going to help anyone.
Cheers, Mike
PS Your Black 5 example is probably down to the cost of importing it to Australia. I doubt the UK equivalent price was as high.
Cheers, Mike
Quote from: red_death on May 03, 2014, 10:04:15 PM
Dapol's production runs seem to have more flexibility than Farish so Dapol can (and do) run lower quantities of both liveries and total production run of a particular model than Farish.
As I understand it, Dapol look at the number ordered by retailers and add on a small percentage for late orders and to swap for any returns.
Farish look at the orders from retailers and round up to the next 'break point' where unit cost drops for bulk order.
That will tend to mean Farish models are produced in larger quantities per identity and that they are more likely to be holding stocks for longer, but because Dapol are producing only what you are confident they can shift in a fairly short time, there is a greater likelihood of the same livery being produced with a different running number sooner...
Quote from: red_death on May 03, 2014, 10:04:15 PM
The Hymek mould is not being destroyed - it is a question of how much wear the mould has had and how much life it has left. There are various grades of tooling normally connected to how hard the tool is, softer tooling is generally cheaper but lasts for a shorter number of shots.
Exactly; the tools are being 'destroyed' only by the act of using them! There comes a point where they are so worn that loss of detail/accuracy means the models produced would not be acceptable to the customers (except perhaps for some of those expressing a desire to return to the era of the Poole caracatures...)
By now, I reckon that the total output of Hymeks must be well past the 10,000 mark. Contrast that with Heljan who are known to favour cheaper, softer tools; where tooling for one of their 00 models was apparently beyond use after only 2000 shots...
Quote from: red_death on May 03, 2014, 10:14:06 PM
Model trains have been cheap for 5-10 years (but they weren't always cheap)
Thank you Mike, at least one person has confirmed what I posted on page 4 :thumbsup:
Paul
There's no point in going on about volumes of models produced, ownership of factories , moulds, losses by
Bachmann or Hornby. In the end you can either buy the goods or whistle Dixie.
Quote from: red_death on May 03, 2014, 10:04:15 PM
There are some misunderstandings on here:
The numbers for a Dapol production are not a 1000. As I said it depends entirely on the model produced and has varied greatly by model and by livery. Some runs have been as small as 150 - 250 per livery (with multiple liveries per model), others have been much higher though I can't remember the the top end of the production range. Dapol's production runs seem to have more flexibility than Farish so Dapol can (and do) run lower quantities of both liveries and total production run of a particular model than Farish.
Dapol and Farish do spread the cost over more than just the first production run (well certainly Farish do in most cases - I'm aware of one model that might not be the case).
(NGS Product Development Officer)
Hi Mike,
Dapol will do a special edition run of 150 locos, but as far as I am aware only if it can be tagged on to a production run. There are some locos at the moment that have a 500 production run per livery, but you also have to factor in their DCC fitted verison which will be part of that 500.
A different ball game altogether would be if manufacturers announce that they would only produce a specific version if a minimum number of confirmed pre-orders are received by a given date.
This happens quite often with U.S. production but may happen over here more often in future.
I wonder what effect the Farish price increase will have on sales of Dapol products ?
I had decided to buy the Farish Peppercorn A2 pacific rather than the Dapol A3 based on "box shifter" prices of £120 and £100 respectively.
I'm now asking myself whether it's worth paying £45 extra for the Farish model if the price increases by 20%.
Or maybe Dapol will follow Farish's lead and increase their prices ?
Best regards,
Joe
Quote from: joe cassidy on May 04, 2014, 07:05:11 PM
Or maybe Dapol will follow Farish's lead and increase their prices ?
Best regards,
Joe
:zippedmouth: Please don't give 'em ideas, Joe :no:
Quote from: Agrippa on May 04, 2014, 12:32:42 AM
There's no point in going on about volumes of models produced, ownership of factories , moulds, losses by
Bachmann or Hornby. In the end you can either buy the goods or whistle Dixie.
Here it is
Hugh Whistling Dixie (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jNtMpPFM7M0#)
Quote from: longbridge on May 04, 2014, 09:15:11 PM
Quote from: Agrippa on May 04, 2014, 12:32:42 AM
There's no point in going on about volumes of models produced, ownership of factories , moulds, losses by
Bachmann or Hornby. In the end you can either buy the goods or whistle Dixie.
Here it is
Hugh Whistling Dixie (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jNtMpPFM7M0#)
Brilliant! Best reply to a posting so far !
Quote from: gc4946 on May 04, 2014, 09:27:33 AM
A different ball game altogether would be if manufacturers announce that they would only produce a specific version if a minimum number of confirmed pre-orders are received by a given date.
This happens quite often with U.S. production but may happen over here more often in future.
Another variation would be minimum order numbers by a set date but production then linked to the specific number of pre-orders received (with maybe a few spares tagged on in case of defects), it's already happened in OO with Rail Exclusive for their 37s http://www.railexclusive.com/index.php?category=81 (http://www.railexclusive.com/index.php?category=81)
I have to disagree with what many members have posted, perhaps unpopularly.
I think, for what we get, the models we buy are not overpriced and I can't understand how we can suggest we're being ripped off. In real terms we pay less than we did 20 years ago for a better product. As someone else alluded to in an earlier post, I don't think that Bachman are applying a blanket 20% increase. And even if they did, I think the CL24 currently retails from the Liverpool Emporium for around £80ish pounds. I would pay £96 for it. No problem. I think it's worth that. Others may not.
But, consider this. Just because you can't justify/afford the cost of an item, it doesn't mean you're being ripped off.
Just been on farish website new prices coming through looked at 373-235 polybulk weathered nearly fell of my chair £43 retail either thats a mistake or thats not 20%
Nobby
We are all addicts so we are not going to stop buying locos :D
Quote from: nobby on May 06, 2014, 11:03:05 AM
Just been on farish website new prices coming through looked at 373-235 polybulk weathered nearly fell of my chair £43 retail either thats a mistake or thats not 20%
Nobby
Do you know what the price was before you saw it at £42.95?
TBH, looking at the Farish website prices is enough to scare anyone, as you'll get 15% off those prices with all the major retailers :goggleeyes:
Quote from: nobby on May 06, 2014, 11:03:05 AM
Just been on farish website new prices coming through looked at 373-235 polybulk weathered nearly fell of my chair £43 retail either thats a mistake or thats not 20%
Nobby
Looking at locos, most steamers seem more restrained. 64xx, Jinty, Ivatts and Fairburns by a Fiver, Duchess no change, A2 by a Fiver.
Soon to arrive Mk1 Sleeping cars up about £3 a time, all coaches seeing a bit of a hike but then they have lots of individual underframe components etc.
Most short wheelbase wagons up from about £10 to £12.
Those kind of numbers I can live with and maybe they reflect some costs already factored in or work already done to simplify production? Also they may reflect materials and shipping where 8 N coaches theoretically fits the footprint of a single 00 product (or not far off it).
Notably some like the Castle are now "TBA" though...
Roy
I'm sure I'm not the only one with a fair bit (mainly locos) on pre-order. The oldest orders place some 14 months ago.
My loco pre-order book with the Liverpool folk comes to just about £500 with a 70/30 GF/Dapol split. That will be OK if the deliveries are spread through the rest of this year as I have been saving.
I've not heard from Liverpool to say that prices have to increase (can they on pre order stuff?) but it'd be a bitter blow if it's more than a couple of per cent. If the hike is higher I may have to pare down what I really 'need'.
Dave G
I was talking to the bloke who owns Trident Trains and he told me that the increases will be from 6% to 25% and majority of the high percentage will be on highly detailed wagons because of the tooling that is needed, he thinks that N gauge stuff will not be highly increased.
But as we all know only time will tell.
Quote from: daveg on May 06, 2014, 03:13:33 PM
I've not heard from Liverpool to say that prices have to increase (can they on pre order stuff?)
They can increase their prices however I cannot think of any examples where they have done so in the past. Even with the Farish Ivatt which increased a lot between announcement and release due to the long delays, they honoured the original price for those who had pre-ordered.
I suspect that they realise that in the long term, the good will generated by honouring such agreements will result in more future trade. A satisfied customer will be back and in the long run, that is probably worth more than the difference in prices between announcement and release.
Quote from: Karhedron on May 06, 2014, 10:11:01 PM
I suspect that they realise that in the long term, the good will generated by honouring such agreements will result in more future trade. A satisfied customer will be back and in the long run, that is probably worth more than the difference in prices between announcement and release.
Especially as there will be the same number of retailers chasing a diminishing market as buyers rein in their expenditure due to the increase in pricing :hmmm:
Each to their own of course. Personally I will give a lot more thought to any future purchases, with "at a whim" purchases being a thing of the past.
Like many I'm sure I have a bit too much stuff anyway! There has been a good range of comments on these unprecedented price rises, but it's the the non-forum element and their reaction that remains to be seen.
My final word on the subject...I think their sales will fall in the current climate, only increasing as and when the economy improves and across the earnings spectrum we can all see ourselves will an increase in disposable income...for our trains.
Can stop guessing what prices may be, On Tracks sent me an email with what they will be selling at. I have do a separate post but here it is also
Graham Farish N scale
GRA370-110 Depot Master Graham Farish N scale train set £99.99 £119.99 £86.40 £33.59
GRA371-019 Class 08 08897 EWS Weathered £84.35 £101.22 £71.70 £29.52
GRA371-385 Class 66 66546 Freightliner £104.95 £125.94 £89.22 £36.72
GRA371-394 Class 66 (Low Emission Variant) 66623 Freightliner Bardon Ag £101.80 £122.16 £76.36 £45.80
GRA371-396 Class 66 (Low Emission Variant) 66731 InterhubGB GBRf £104.95 £125.94 £89.22 £36.72
GRA371-603A Class 42 Warship D829 Magpie BR Maroon Full Yellow Ends £106.05 £127.26 £79.54 £47.72
GRA371-878 Class 108 2 Car DMU BR Blue (Power Twin) £116.70 £140.04 £87.53 £52.51
GRA372-752 Fairburn 2-6-4 Tank 42073 BR Black Late Crest £99.95 £119.94 £84.97 £34.97
GRA372-753 Fairburn 2-6-4 Tank 42267 BR Black Late Crest Weathered £109.95 £131.94 £93.47 £38.47
GRA372-800A Class A1 60163 Tornado BR Lined Brunswick Green £157.35 £188.82 £133.75 £55.07
GRA373-077D DISC PCA Tapered Bulk Powder Wagon Grey £8.95 £10.74 £7.13 £3.61
GRA373-217 24 Ton Ore Hopper Wagon Richard Thomas £10.95 £13.14 £9.31 £3.83
GRA373-260B 8 Ton Cattle Wagon BR Bauxite (Early) £9.15 £10.98 £7.78 £3.20
GRA373-403C 31 Ton OAA Open Plank Wagon Railfreight Red & Grey £9.00 £10.80 £7.66 £3.14
GRA373-476A DISC 46 Tonne glw CEA Covered Hopper Wagon EWS £8.95 £10.74 £7.13 £3.61
GRA373-628C 31 Ton OBA Open Wagon With High Ends EWS £11.35 £13.62 £9.65 £3.97
GRA373-878B 24 Tonne MFA Open Box Mineral Wagon EWS £10.30 £12.36 £8.76 £3.60
GRA373-900E 46 Tonne glw HAA Hopper Freight Brown - Weathered £12.95 £15.54 £11.00 £4.54
GRA373-901C 46 Tonne glw HAA Hopper EWS Weathered £12.95 £15.54 £11.00 £4.54
GRA373-902B 46 Tonne glw HAA Hopper BR Railfreight Coal Sector £11.95 £14.34 £10.16 £4.18
GRA374-011 DISC BR Mk1 SO Coach BR Green £19.70 £23.64 £15.77 £7.87
GRA374-063 DISC BR MK1 SK Coach BR Green £19.70 £23.64 £15.77 £7.87
GRA374-117A BR Mk1 RU Restaurant Car (WR) Chocolate & Cream £17.40 £20.88 £14.80 £6.08
GRA374-133 BR Mk1 GUV Rail Express Systems £19.70 £23.64 £16.74 £6.90
GRA374-163 BR MK1 FK First Corridor (WR) Chocolate & Cream £19.70 £23.64 £16.74 £6.90
GRA374-185 DISC BR MK1 BSK Coach BR Crimson & Cream £19.70 £23.64 £15.77 £7.87
GRA374-186 DISC BR MK1 BSK Coach BR Green £19.70 £23.64 £15.77 £7.87
GRA374-186B BR Mk1 BSK Brake Second Corridor (SR) Green £19.70 £23.64 £16.74 £6.90
GRA374-187 DISC BR MK1 BSK Coach BR Maroon £19.70 £23.64 £15.77 £7.87
GRA374-241 BR Mk1 BSP Pullman Second Bar Car Nightcap Bar Blue & Grey £22.95 £27.54 £19.51 £8.03
GRA374-255 DISC BR MK1 CK Coach BR Crimson & Cream £19.70 £23.64 £15.77 £7.87
GRA374-256 DISC BR MK1 CK Coach BR Chocolate & Cream £19.70 £23.64 £15.77 £7.87
GRA374-256A disc BR Mk1 CK Composite Corridor (WR) Chocolate & Cream £19.70 £23.64 £16.74 £6.90
GRA374-257 DISC BR MK1 CK Coach BR Maroon £19.70 £23.64 £15.77 £7.87
GRA374-257B BR Mk1 CK Composite Corridor Maroon £19.70 £23.64 £16.74 £6.90
GRA374-258B BR Mk1 CK Composite Corridor Blue & Grey £19.70 £23.64 £16.74 £6.90
GRA374-270B BR Mk1 57ft Suburban Compartment Second Crimson £17.85 £21.42 £15.17 £6.25
GRA374-271B BR Mk1 57ft Suburban Compartment Second Maroon £17.85 £21.42 £15.17 £6.25
GRA374-280B BR Mk1 57ft Suburban Composite Crimson £17.85 £21.42 £15.17 £6.25
GRA374-327A DISC BR Mk3 TS Trailer Standard 42235 GNER £17.40 £20.88 £14.80 £6.08
GRA374-327B DISC BR Mk3 TS Trailer Standard 42243 GNER £17.40 £20.88 £14.80 £6.08
GRA374-327C DISC BR Mk3 TS Trailer Standard 42057 GNER £17.40 £20.88 £14.80 £6.08
GRA374-327D DISC BR Mk3 TS Trailer Standard 42219 GNER £17.40 £20.88 £14.80 £6.08
GRA374-380 BR Mk3 TRFB Trailer Restaurant First Buffet Cross Country £17.40 £20.88 £14.80 £6.08
GRA374-403A BR Mk3 TGS Trailer Guard Standard GNER £17.40 £20.88 £14.80 £6.08
GRA374-431 Bulleid 63ft Second Brake Corridor Open BR Crimson & Cream £19.75 £23.70 £16.79 £6.91
GRA374-440 Bulleid 63ft Second Corridor BR (SR) Green £19.75 £23.70 £16.79 £6.91
GRA374-460 Bulleid 63ft Composite Corridor BR (SR) Green £19.75 £23.70 £16.79 £6.91
GRA374-461 Bulleid 63ft Composite Corridor BR Crimson & Cream £19.75 £23.70 £16.79 £6.91
GRA374-680 BR MK2A BSO Brake Second Open Blue & Grey £19.75 £23.70 £16.79 £6.91
GRA374-800 BR Mk1 RFO Restaurant Car Blue & Grey £17.40 £20.88 £14.80 £6.08
GRA374-804A BR Mk1 RFO Restaurant Car Chocolate & Cream £17.40 £20.88 £14.80 £6.08
GRA374-807 BR Mk1 RFO Restaurant Car Crimson & Cream £20.95 £25.14 £17.81 £7.33
GRA374-808 BR Mk1 RFO Restaurant Car Maroon £20.95 £25.14 £17.81 £7.33
GRA374-809 BR Mk1 RFO Restaurant Car (SR) Green £20.95 £25.14 £17.81 £7.33
GRA374-810 BR Mk1 RFO Restaurant Car (WR) Chocolate & Cream £20.95 £25.14 £17.81 £7.33
GRA374-811 BR Mk1 RFO Restaurant Car Blue & Grey £20.95 £25.14 £17.81 £7.33
GRA374-815 BR Mk1 FO First Open Crimson & Cream £20.30 £24.36 £17.26 £7.10
GRA374-827 Stanier Brake Second BR Maroon £19.75 £23.70 £16.79 £6.91
GRA374-885 LMS 50ft Full Brake Crimson Lake £19.75 £23.70 £16.79 £6.91
GRA374-927 BR Mk1 SLSTP Sleeping Second Blue & Grey £21.60 £25.92 £18.36 £7.56
GRA376-761 Water Tower £7.50 £9.00 £6.37 £2.63
GRA377-002A 40 Tonne Seacow (Ex Sealion) YGA Bogie Hopper Wagon EWS £22.60 £27.12 £19.21 £7.91
GRA377-077A 7 Plank Fixed End Wagon Thomas Styles £7.95 £9.54 £6.76 £2.78
GRA377-078B 7 Plank End Door Wagon BR Grey £7.95 £9.54 £6.76 £2.78
GRA377-086 7 Plank End Door Wagon E & A. Shadrack £7.95 £9.54 £6.76 £2.78
GRA377-101A DISC 90 Tonne glw JGA Bogie Hopper Buxton Lime Industries £21.50 £25.80 £17.15 £8.65
GRA377-102A 90 Tonne glw JGA Bogie Hopper Tarmac £22.80 £27.36 £19.38 £7.98
GRA377-176C 7 Plank Wagon With Coke Rail BR Grey £8.50 £10.20 £7.22 £2.98
GRA377-250D 16 Ton Steel Mineral Wagon BR Grey £7.65 £9.18 £6.50 £2.68
GRA377-325A Conflat With BD Container Speedfreight £9.80 £11.76 £8.33 £3.43
GRA377-326B Conflat With AF Container Light Blue £9.80 £11.76 £8.33 £3.43
GRA377-327A Conflat With AF Container GWR White £9.80 £11.76 £8.33 £3.43
GRA377-340A Conflat With 2 AF Containers BR Insulated White £10.45 £12.54 £8.88 £3.66
GRA377-550A DISC 31 Tonne OCA Dropside Open Wagon BR Departmental Dutch £13.15 £15.78 £10.49 £5.29
GRA377-551A 31 Tonne OCA Dropside Open Wagon Railfreight Red £13.95 £16.74 £11.86 £4.88
GRA377-552A 31 Tonne OCA Dropside Open Wagon EWS £13.95 £16.74 £11.86 £4.88
GRA377-575A DISC 102 Tonne glw HYA Bulk Coal Hopper Wagon GBRf (VTG) £20.65 £24.78 £16.54 £8.24
GRA377-600 DISC 80 Tonne glw BDA Bogie Bolster Wagon Loadhaul £20.90 £25.08 £16.66 £8.42
GRA377-602A 80 Tonne glw BDA Bogie Bolster Wagon EWS £22.20 £26.64 £18.88 £7.76
GRA377-626A 12 Ton BR Plywood Fruit Van BR Bauxite (Late) £9.50 £11.40 £8.08 £3.32
GRA377-628A 12 Ton BR Ventilated Van Plywood Doors BR Bauxite (Late) £9.50 £11.40 £8.08 £3.32
GRA377-650 MBA Megabox High-Sided Bogie Box Wagon EWS (with Buffers) £22.25 £26.70 £18.91 £7.79
GRA377-651 MBA Megabox High-Sided Bogie Box Wagon EWS (without Buffers) £22.25 £26.70 £18.91 £7.79
GRA377-726 SPA Wagon with Steel Coils Railfreight Metal Sector £15.85 £19.02 £13.48 £5.54
GRA377-852 SR 25 Ton 'Pill Box' Brake Van BR Grey £13.25 £15.90 £11.27 £4.63
GRA379-013 Graham Farish Catalogue 2013/14 £6.25 £7.50 £6.37 £1.13
GRA379-201 Ramps (x2) £4.25 £5.10 £3.61 £1.49
GRA379-304 Station Passengers Standing £6.95 £8.34 £5.90 £2.44
GRA379-305 Station Passengers Sitting £6.95 £8.34 £5.90 £2.44
GRA379-353A 20ft Containers Hapag-Lloyd & Hanjin (x4) £8.05 £9.66 £6.84 £2.82
GRA379-401 disc NEM Couplings (Standard) (x20) £4.50 £5.40 £3.83 £1.57
GRA379-563 Guy Arab II Devon General £8.95 £10.74 £7.61 £3.13
GRA42-031 DISC Hampton Heath Colliery Woodstacks £6.65 £7.98 £5.23 £2.75
GRA42-043 DISC Lineside Transformer Site £29.95 £35.94 £25.45 £10.49
GRA42-046 DISC Outhouses (for use with 42-200) £8.10 £9.72 £6.89 £2.83
GRA42-049 DISC Modern Industrial Unit £25.50 £30.60 £21.67 £8.93
GRA42-065 DISC Art Deco Platform Centre Building £17.95 £21.54 £15.25 £6.29
GRA42-070 DISC Coaling Tower £74.95 £89.94 £63.71 £26.23
GRA42-072 DISC Depot Crane £29.95 £35.94 £25.45 £10.49
GRA42-081 DISC Portable Offices £19.95 £23.94 £16.96 £6.98
GRA42-103 DISC Farm House £29.95 £35.94 £25.45 £10.49
GRA42-104 DISC Red Brick Hay Barn £33.50 £40.20 £28.48 £11.72
GRA42-105 DISC Red Brick Pigsty £17.50 £21.00 £14.88 £6.12
GRA42-115 DISC Great Central Gentlemans Toilet £16.50 £19.80 £14.03 £5.77
GRA42-140 DISC Bicycle Hut £5.95 £7.14 £5.05 £2.09
GRA42-200 DISC Rear of Terraced Houses £18.35 £22.02 £15.60 £6.42
GRA42-214 Low Relief Railway Hotel £26.95 £32.34 £22.91 £9.43
Bart
Bart,
what are the four values you have listed for each item?? ???
Quote from: PLD on May 08, 2014, 07:40:10 AM
Bart,
what are the four values you have listed for each item?? ???
See the other thread Running.
I think they are (although guessing the last two): -
1)Current Price
2)New Price
3)Wholesale price
4)Dealer Margin
As I mentioned on the other post, these do not reflect recent post announcement increases ALREADY showing on the Bachmann website after 1st May, most locos including current stock at Barwell will be increasing by closer to the 20% originally mooted assuming this is accurate (and no reason to doubt it).
I therefore I suspect prices will be closer to those originally predicted and not the modest increases initially shown.
Such is life I guess. I was relieved to believe from the initial price changes on the Bachmann website that prices wouldnot go up as much, but not to be it now seems.
Roy
Bart
Sorry, one further comment/question that now occurs to me if you can find out.
Clearly this is not the entire Bach-Farish N Gauge range listed, it it simply an extract (and is there a full list) OR are other increases as already showing on Bachmann website?
Roy
Waste of time debating this really, if the Bachmann have a price increase of 20% we either pay the price or forget it.
Most modellers will pay whatever the cost for an item if they really need it, if they don't need it they wont buy it, simple as that.
Quote from: Agrippa on May 04, 2014, 12:32:42 AM
There's no point in going on about volumes of models produced, ownership of factories , moulds, losses by
Bachmann or Hornby. In the end you can either buy the goods or whistle Dixie.
Yep, you got it !
sorry about that, must have cut off the title bit
it was on tracks sales prices
2013 rrp 2014 rrp on tracks retail price savings
i just did a copy/paste of their email that they sent out to all
bart
Quote from: 1936ace on May 08, 2014, 09:00:57 AM
sorry about that, must have cut off the title bit
it was on tracks sales prices
2013 rrp 2014 rrp on tracks retail price savings
i just did a copy/paste of their email that they sent out to all
bart
Thank you for clarifying Bart. so my guesses on the last two columns was completely wrong!
However are these CONFIRMED RRPs for 2014? (I.e. Are these Bachmann's or just assumptions made by Antics?).
As far as I can see, from all examples I have taken at random, they have simply applied an arbitrary 20% price hike to 2013 prices across everything showing which from what we have been told by Bachmann is NOT what will happen.
Roy
hi roy
not sure mate how on tracks came to the 2014 prices
bart
I have pre-ordered a Graham Farish 'N' from that well-known Liverpool-based emporium in the expectation of being able to buy it at the existing price. I'd like more than one but at well over a £100 each, one will have to do. I can diagram Graham Farish Bulleid Light Pacifics and, for later years, Graham Farish BR Standard 2-6-4Ts, (all well under £100 secondhand, even including service / repair at BRlines) instead.
I was tempted by a 64XX but, despite the reasonable price still showing for pre-orders, really cannot justify one, except as a 'preserved' loco. at Bodmin GWS, so will wait.
I think that until it is confirmed that the source of the 2014 prices shown by Antics was indeed Bachmann I will take the 20% across the piece price hike they are currently showing here with a proverbial "pinch of salt".
Roy
Before we all :poop: ourselves it might be worth looking at the discounts being offered.
As an example, the Warship has had a 20% increase to take it to £127.26 but the saving being offered is £47.72 which equals 37.5%
Quote from: newportnobby on May 08, 2014, 10:27:46 AM
Before we all :poop: ourselves it might be worth looking at the discounts being offered.
As an example, the Warship has had a 20% increase to take it to £127.26 but the saving being offered is £47.72 which equals 37.5%
Exactly but that's against an as yet unconfirmed (and at odds with Bachmann's website currently) arbitrary 20% price rise across the piece and it therefore makes the discounts look especially good.
It also suggests an abandonment of the imposed 15% max initial dealer discount which I have not seen mentioned anywhere else.
Roy
Quote from: Roy L S on May 08, 2014, 10:33:44 AM
It also suggests an abandonment of the imposed 15% max initial dealer discount which I have not seen mentioned anywhere else.
Roy
The max 15% discount is only for a limited period of time - 8 (or 12?) weeks IIRC.
Cheers, Mike
Quote from: red_death on May 08, 2014, 10:51:46 AM
Quote from: Roy L S on May 08, 2014, 10:33:44 AM
It also suggests an abandonment of the imposed 15% max initial dealer discount which I have not seen mentioned anywhere else.
Roy
The max 15% discount is only for a limited period of time - 8 (or 12?) weeks IIRC.
Cheers, Mike
Hi Mike
That's a very fair point but I haven't as yet seen retailers break ranks significantly even after the initial period. Agreed, if they do it may well mitigate the cost rise to the consumer even if doing little for dealer margins!
My issue is that we are currently working to an unconfirmed premise of a 20% price rise across the board and the big discounts are calculated on the basis of these "new" prices which is why I am curious to know if the 2014 prices were indeed provided by Bachmann or are Antics' own assumption.
Regards
Roy
TBH, unless we can establish the trade price to Antics, anything we come up with is conjecture. I can hardly believe that, if Farish have increased the trade price by 20%, that Antics would commit virtual economic suicide by then giving such a large discount :no:
At the end of the day, I guess we'll all just have to shop around for the best deals - something I do before purchasing anything anyway.
Hi Roy
Bachmann have been clear that the 20% figure is an average and that some items will increase much more than 20% and others less.
From that I'm making an educated guess that the figures presented from Antics are their calculations rather than the official figures.
As an aside you are right that many shops have used the max 15% discount policy as an opportunity to bolster margins and not applied any further discounts at the end of the restricted period. I fear that was inevitable, though it only takes one of the large box shifters to break ranks and we could see more discounting again.
Cheers, Mike
Quote from: Chris in Prague on May 08, 2014, 10:12:29 AM
I have pre-ordered a Graham Farish 'N' from that well-known Liverpool-based emporium in the expectation of being able to buy it at the existing price. I'd like more than one but at well over a £100 each, one will have to do. I can diagram Graham Farish Bulleid Light Pacifics and, for later years, Graham Farish BR Standard 2-6-4Ts, (all well under £100 secondhand, even including service / repair at BRlines) instead.
I was tempted by a 64XX but, despite the reasonable price still showing for pre-orders, really cannot justify one, except as a 'preserved' loco. at Bodmin GWS, so will wait.
The N Class is not due for release until probably this time next year! in which time the price may go up again.
As stated before, for the first 8 weeks of a release the maximum discount permitted is 15%, so selling at the original price would be in breach of the agreement, which does become difficult when they up the price.
Don't know if anyone has said this before on here, but Dapol had a 9% increase last year.
Quote from: MKP on May 08, 2014, 12:29:19 PM
Quote from: Chris in Prague on May 08, 2014, 10:12:29 AM
I have pre-ordered a Graham Farish 'N' from that well-known Liverpool-based emporium in the expectation of being able to buy it at the existing price. I'd like more than one but at well over a £100 each, one will have to do. I can diagram Graham Farish Bulleid Light Pacifics and, for later years, Graham Farish BR Standard 2-6-4Ts, (all well under £100 secondhand, even including service / repair at BRlines) instead.
I was tempted by a 64XX but, despite the reasonable price still showing for pre-orders, really cannot justify one, except as a 'preserved' loco. at Bodmin GWS, so will wait.
Well, we'll see. Pre-ordering MAY mean that I can buy at an advantageous price. If I don't pre-order I will certainly have to pay what ever is the going rate for whenever the N comes out. (I thought it was due earlier than next year but haven't been following the news that closely.)
The N Class is not due for release until probably this time next year! in which time the price may go up again.
As stated before, for the first 8 weeks of a release the maximum discount permitted is 15%, so selling at the original price would be in breach of the agreement, which does become difficult when they up the price.
Don't know if anyone has said this before on here, but Dapol had a 9% increase last year.
Quote from: Roy L S on May 08, 2014, 10:20:08 AM
I think that until it is confirmed that the source of the 2014 prices shown by Antics was indeed Bachmann I will take the 20% across the piece price hike they are currently showing here with a proverbial "pinch of salt".
Roy
And it wouldn't be the first time a trader has over-quoted the RRP to make their discounts seem more generous than they really are... ...
Got an email 10 mins ago from Liverpool advising that a MK1 sleeping car 374-926 currently at £17 pre-order will cost £22.06 once item arrives in store sometime next week.
That's pretty close to +20%!
Dave G
Quote from: daveg on May 08, 2014, 06:07:01 PM
Got an email 10 mins ago from Liverpool advising that a MK1 sleeping car 374-926 currently at £17 pre-order will cost £22.06 once item arrives in store sometime next week.
That's pretty close to +20%!
Dave G
So, if you've pre-ordered at £17 you'll actually have to pay £22.06?
Quote from: daveg on May 08, 2014, 06:07:01 PM
Got an email 10 mins ago from Liverpool advising that a MK1 sleeping car 374-926 currently at £17 pre-order will cost £22.06 once item arrives in store sometime next week.
That's pretty close to +20%!
Dave G
I'd be advising them that they can keep it :unimpressed:
No, sorry for being so unclear.
Pre order at old price or wait till 12 May when kit in stock and it'll be £22 odd.
Dave G
Quote from: daveg on May 08, 2014, 06:52:20 PM
No, sorry for being so unclear.
Pre order at old price or wait till 12 May when kit in stock and it'll be £22 odd.
Dave G
Ah, thought it sounded a bit off.
Quote from: daveg on May 08, 2014, 06:07:01 PM
Got an email 10 mins ago from Liverpool advising that a MK1 sleeping car 374-926 currently at £17 pre-order will cost £22.06 once item arrives in store sometime next week.
That's pretty close to +20%!
Not really ... 20% of £17 is £3.40 - this is an increase of £5.06 which is closer to
30% (which would be £22.10).
Quote from: shandy on May 08, 2014, 06:48:09 PM
I'd be advising them that they can keep it :unimpressed:
At a 30% increase - so would I !!!
This thread has definitely prompted me to do something -- preorder the Graham Farish 'Cumbrian Mountain Express' train pack. As far as I can tell, Hattons honour the preorder price, which at £127.46 (http://www.ehattons.com/StockDetail.aspx?SID=71917) for a new version Duchess, three Mk 1 coaches and a Scenecraft signal box is looking quite a good deal! There are some other retailers offering this pack, but they don't seem to have the same promise about preorder prices.
Cheers, NeMo
New RRP for the sleepers =£25.95
Maximum 15% discount allowed on a new release would make it £22.06
Quote from: NeMo on May 08, 2014, 07:39:30 PM
This thread has definitely prompted me to do something -- preorder the Graham Farish 'Cumbrian Mountain Express' train pack. As far as I can tell, Hattons honour the preorder price, which at £127.46 (http://www.ehattons.com/StockDetail.aspx?SID=71917) for a new version Duchess, three Mk 1 coaches and a Scenecraft signal box is looking quite a good deal! There are some other retailers offering this pack, but they don't seem to have the same promise about preorder prices.
Cheers, NeMo
Having also pre ordered this from Hattons I hope they honour the price, too :worried:
The original announcement was 'average 20%' and the rest of the discussion implied that would hit very un-evenly depending upon the complexity of assembly of the product.
Mark 1 coaches have now gone from people whining that they'd soon break the totally unreasonable £10 barrier to £25 in what ten years ? Mind you they've got rather better in the process.
Alan
Some new actual retail prices have been anounced by Hattons and Rails of Sheffield today via e-mail.
The good news is that the increase for locos is "only" 5 to 10%.
The bad news is that the going rate for a coach is now £20 instead of £16.
Small wagons have gone up from about £6 to around £9.
Boo hoo ! :'(
Joe
Just had a newsletter from Rails about the latest batch of Farish Pullmans being in.........discounted price is over £22, full retail over £25.
Can't remember what the last batch cost me, though. :-[
Won't be buying any more :no:
yes just got the same email, i paid 12 and 13 pounds for the ones i got from hattons
bart
Fortunately, I have enough (6) Metro-Cammell umber and cream Pullmans.
and if you go to hattons right now you can still buy at the old price
plus look at the price increase for the geaham farish buses 8.26pounds up from 6 pounds .. now thats a big price hike
Bart
Quote from: 1936ace on May 13, 2014, 08:40:54 PM
and if you go to hattons right now you can still buy at the old price
Bart
The latest arrivals are not showing on the Hatton site, Bart :confused1:
Quote from: newportnobby on May 13, 2014, 08:32:27 PM
Just had a newsletter from Rails about the latest batch of Farish Pullmans being in.........discounted price is over £22, full retail over £25.
Can't remember what the last batch cost me, though. :-[
Won't be buying any more :no:
Did a quick review of my current stock of coaches this evening. I have a fair mix so don't need that many more.
Glad I've had my Pullmans on pre-order since April last year. Looks like they're due into Liverpool/Sheffield this week.
Dave G
Glad I've got my autoballaster rake sorted, 33 quid!!!!
Quote from: 1936ace on May 13, 2014, 08:40:54 PM
look at the price increase for the geaham farish buses 8.26pounds up from 6 pounds ..
Shame they have gone up 8% in scale as well as 30+% in price! :goggleeyes:
Quote from: daveg on May 13, 2014, 09:08:49 PM
Quote from: newportnobby on May 13, 2014, 08:32:27 PM
Just had a newsletter from Rails about the latest batch of Farish Pullmans being in.........discounted price is over £22, full retail over £25.
Can't remember what the last batch cost me, though. :-[
Won't be buying any more :no:
Did a quick review of my current stock of coaches this evening. I have a fair mix so don't need that many more.
Glad I've had my Pullmans on pre-order since April last year. Looks like they're due into Liverpool/Sheffield this week.
Dave G
Can't say the coach price hike surprises me, they have lots of separate fittings and must take a fair time to assemble in the factory and the same for some wagons.
Have to admit I have far too many coaches for present and any foreseeable future needs and don't buy many these days. I do have a couple of Mk1 Sleeping cars hopefully on their way to me but they are required to have a representative (albeit shortened) version of "The Waverley" which will be hauled by a "Peak".
Roy
I wonder if prices of coaches will increase accordingly on eBay?
i say they will, just look at second hand prices on sale at say hattons for example
bart
Quote from: 1936ace on May 14, 2014, 08:17:06 AM
i say they will, just look at second hand prices on sale at say hattons for example
bart
Good job I spent so much money on eBay these last few months then!