N Gauge Forum

Hi

Thought I'd start this to see your thoughts about dapol.

They really impressseD me at TINGS today, and had more bargins than dapol.

I bought a B1 from them for £40 which is a great price. Sadly, when I opened it I noticed it was broken. So I took it back today and they swapped it.

Not only did they do that, they gave me a free catalogue and a 100% FREE A3 loco.

They really impressed me, and I must admit, normally I only buy one dapol item at TINGS, but I ended up with 14!

Really impressed with them. Brilliant customer service.

So what are your thoughts?

I think you have opened Pandoras Box  :worried:

I was after some spares from them. Spoke to Joel who took my details and said he would send them in the post FOC so we`ll see...........

To be honest ive never had any problems with any of my diesels or electric loco's.

I know that a few members had trouble with circuit board and motor failures.

But my over all opinion is their just as good as farish and to think that they are still newbee's in N gauge.

Quote from: scotsoft on September 08, 2013, 07:59:08 PM
I think you have opened Pandoras Box  :worried:

Now where did I leave my Tin Hat anyone? :( :worried:

As I've said before, I've never had any trouble from any of my Dapol products.  I have many diesels and electric, lovely runners.

I'm in the boat with those that have not had any problems with Dapol diesels.Earlier this year,at Wigan,my only real purchase was a Dapol NMT HST power car and dummy set.Ran it in when I got home and all was well,still is in fact.

At TINGS,I bought another Dapol 156 Sprinter dmu to go with my other one(you can't have enought dmu's)and it too runs as sweet as a nut after oiling and running in.Another Legomanbiffo Loksound v4micro will have to be bougut for it.

I know some other forum members have had bother with their Dapol steamers and some with diesels and electrics as well,I just don't seem to have any at all.I understand that pcb and suppresion componentry can cause problems so before I run mine in,I give it a quick inspection just to check if everything looks ok.

I have had cause to have a look at an A4 loco that the owner tried fixing himself therefore invalidating his warranty but as it turned out to be a motor fault(shorting out when power is applied directly)I couldn't do any more.Shame really,as its a fine looking bit of kit.

Pete
:Class31: :Class37: :NGaugersRule:

I'm fine with Dapol.
I've got 3 panniers, a class 22 and a Bubblecar (oh and the Ixion/Dapol Manor) and all are absolutely fine.

Never had a problem with there locos :)

I have to say never had any issue with any new Dapol locomotive (Steam, Diesel and Electric) that I have purchased.

My Dapol problems are with older models - the newer ones are pretty good in my opinion, provided you treat them with respect, of course - just like any N gauge model.

very happy with 2x 58s, 1x 56, hst, class 121 and class 156.

less happy with class 73s (but it's an older model)

I just bought a hall, not run it yet though.

overall I like the dapol diesels I have just as much as the farish ones.


tim

I've mostly bought Dapol's steam engines as they've really upped the bar on detail (which Farish has started to follow) but had to heavily repair/modify most of the ones I got or just return them for refunds as Dapol's industrial design is so bad and I don't plan to buy any more of them until I hear they've made radical improvements.

Their 0-6-0 engines have been pretty good and look great. (I have a terrier and a pannier tank so far) but they are very light and can only pull 'branch line' type loads. The 14xx I got was abysmal. Way too light and the axles were skewed on the chassis (apparently a lot of them were released this way) making it so it can't even pull its auto coach unless on a perfectly flat strait.

Their tender engines are the worst though. Too light, design issues with the tender connection, lack of clearance from footplate to tender, lack of enough weight to counter the torque of the driveshaft and poor build quality means they don't go around corners, can't pull reasonable length trains and just generally break in my experience.

I do have one Dapol's diesel, the class 22, which I think is great so far.

I have had no quality issues with diesels, a 5 car Voyager, 2 each 66 and 67, and a 156.  On the Ivatt tank I had to slacken the underside keeper plate a quarter turn as the gears were fouling it.  The second hand Terrier is fine.  The Brit is great setting aside silver grey wheels (earlier lcos had black wheels) , though I wish they did not go for that shaft system.  It spoils the cab, restricting ability to add crew.  And they are pigs to put back when they disconnect themselves.  As a design it meant I bought Farish B1s (very nice) and will not replace my Minitrix 9F.  And I will avoid future tender engines except in extremis.

Nearly forgot, the M7 has been great, and is fine with a 12 wagon milk train.  Now converted into a Caley loco.

A colleague is hoping to get one of the LT panniers for me.  Used to pass them at Neasden on my way by Met line to school.

The only issue I've had with Dapol locos is lighting wires breaking. Had a few of these but all in all they have been nice runners, with the exception of an old tooling 66.

The only Dapol products I have are four Class 156 sets and an HST, all of which have never given any trouble so far :thumbsup:

The trouble I have had with any stock is with Bachmann-Farish split chassis (HST and class 37), and the usual pickups problem with the 04 ;)


Paul

After reading of Woolleysh33p's experience today they only gripe I have with Dapol is that I haven't ever got a Freebie!

But seriously, I will add to the trend so far and say that I have had no problems with my Diesel fleet (56, 58, 67, 73 and 153).

The 73 is a bit touchy, but that is old now as has already been said.  Oh, and I have a dummy 67 which derails for fun but that is cos I have 1st radius curves.

However, I must say the general trend of problems with Kettles puts my off my longer-term plan of getting something like a Hall to run as a rail-tour.

I prefer Castle's anyway, but I was thinking if I saw a reasonably priced one I could get it to hold me until the new tooling Farish Castle comes out. Has anybody had all-good experience with their Dapol steam fleet?

Skyline2uk

If I remember correctly the Class 73 was Dapols first Locomotive in N Gauge and this came out in 2004 so it is nearly ten years old!

I've haven't brought any Dapol yet but it is nice to hear Dapol being praised by their customers lets hope they get encouraged to do well.

Quote from: OwL on September 08, 2013, 11:19:13 PM
If I remember correctly the Class 73 was Dapols first Locomotive in N Gauge and this came out in 2004 so it is nearly ten years old!

I have a few of them and they are still running sweet! Excellent little runners.

Hi Skyline2UK,
Well my experience with the Dapol steam fleet has been quite good, no failures or returns to date. I have nine Dapol steam locomotives, three panniers, 45xx, Hall, 2-8-0, A4, two B1s.  The improvement in performance over the last few years is most noticeable when running the 45xx (stop or very fast) along side one of the panniers.
Hope that helps

Other than a few issues with my first couple of Hymeks from the first batch (poor haulage capacity, noisy and poor running), I have since been trouble free. No problems with my Class 121 DMU, HST, Hall or Class 22. As far as returns, I have only had to return one Dapol loco which compares to one Farish return.

So add me to the satisfied customer column :D

I've had two failures out of four 'Britannias'; one with pick-up problems, the second a motor fault, IIRC.

Both fixed under warranty by DCC Supplies.

The screws holding the bodies on all four locos were very stiff, which made the initial oiling required very difficult to do.

Both fixed under warranty by DCC Supplies.

Martyn

Right then.... Their early stuff runs poorly, looks great though. Things are getting much better lately, but there are still too many failures considering that these models are now exceeding the £100 mark... I'm still happy to buy the small steamers (except the M7) and the diesels/electrics.

I forgot to add in my previous post that one of our Group members had an Ivatt tank which dropped its valve gear after about 15' running in. I don't think he was able to get it repaired or replaced by Dapol for some reason, so he got a refund instead.

Martyn

Good Morning

I have been following this thread with interest.

My experience with the the two Dapol loco's I have purchased is not good.

The the Class 26 blew two decoders and eventually I had to remove all the wiring and replace it with a hard wire decoder.

The Class 22, which I ordered with the decoder installed, when removed from the box was found to be covered in grease.  The chassis had so much grease in it I was able to scoop out with a small screwdriver blade.  In the end I had enough on the workbench to lubricate a family car from 1970's. 

If that wasn't enough the pick-ups, which were covered in grease, one had completely popped from both spigots the others had come loose from the spigots on the ends.  Easily fixed by very slightly reaming the holes and gluing back into position.

But it still wouldn't run. 

After spending the better part of an hour the problem it was found that one of the wires going to the brushes had not been soldered to the tag.  The end had been shoved in between the tag and the brush and the tag pushed back to hold it into place against the brush and some electrical tape put over the top to hold it in place and then some more electrical tape put over the top of that.  As the wire tried to resume its straight alignment it came out of contact with the brush.

Now that each has been repaired they are sweet runners and very enjoyable to watch.

On the whole Dapol produce a good product but it is their quality control that lets them down.

The Chinese can produce good products but its their obsession, for the most part, with output that find quality control being given short shrift.

Other manufacturers have products produced in China but don't seem to nearly the same problems as Dapol and I think that is because they have stricter quality control measures when the products arrive on shore.

It seems that Dapol has opted for the lower quality control and expects a certain number of returns which they will either attempt fix or bin.  The problem with this approach apart from customers loosing faith in the product is that those costs, which I suspect are higher that good quality control, has to be built into the end price.  Or the alternative is were there is a competitive market place it is a hit to profit.

The only other thing is that a step appears to be missing of the Class 22.  Not sure what happened there.  It isn't on the work bench anywhere.

That crashing noise; just me falling off the soapbox.

Kind regards

Geoff

It does appear diesel customers are more satisfied than steam. Unfortunatley im in the latter category with several returns .

Hi Guys;

I have bought a considerable number of Dapol diesels & DMUs over the years.  Some of the early 66s (Freightliner) have died and are a source of spares now.  Generally though, I think I have been fairly lucky...I have a 58 that is still rough after repeated attempts at rects,a 27 that loses its lights after prolonged running (heat stress??) and my latest purchase on Sunday (a 66709 Sorrento) has at least one wobbly wheelset and a BROKEN GEAR!!!  Not impressed with that one as I thought the 66 had matured over the years.  The other 66 bought (66720 in childrens livery) is OK but noisy on cornering...

Overall, I'm only just satisfied enough to keep my faith in them, but not terrible impressed with either the longevity or robustness of them in the longer term.

Later;
STU from EGDL

Quote from: OwL on September 08, 2013, 08:23:05 PM

Quote from: scotsoft on September 08, 2013, 07:59:08 PM
I think you have opened Pandoras Box  :worried:

Now where did I leave my Tin Hat anyone? :( :worried:

You'll need it!
This box is full of explosive worms and they're not of the arcy sparky multi-coloured variety...  :whistle:  :dighole:

Think I may have spoken too soon.Yesterday whilst running my new Dapol 156 Sprinter dmu,Farish Warship and Farish class 66,I inadvertantly forgot to remove my Dapol NMT HST dummy power car.Because I was running the others in on dc power,it meant that for around 5 hours,the dummy power cars lights were on,not much,but on they were.The dc controller was set for running in at around 40-45% power.As I was jist finishing running in the Warship,I noticed a smell which I thought was the Warship as it seemed a bit tight to start with but upon touching the bodyshell to check for a hot motor,it wasn't the Warship.

At this time,a feeling of dread overcame me so with the Warship off the rolling road,I did a quick check on the dummy power car.It was the source of the smell.So I took it off the track and removed the body.Nothing looked amiss so I put it back on the track and applied power.

Then I discovered that the red tail lights would only light.So,now I'm a bit annoyed with myself because I shouldn't have left it on but then I had a thought.

I am at a later date,going to fit it with a sound decoder along with the powered end so it has sound at each end which means the pcb will be removed anyway.So,with that in mind,I cut out the pcb and had a look at the board and lo and behold,discovered that one of the components had a look that told me it had expired.The pcb on this model is slightly different to the earlier hst by Dapol,but nevertheless,it had blown a component anyway.The component that was blown was a diode,identified by a letter D next to it.It has a burn mark at the top and the soldering to the pcb is slightly discoloured.

I'm just wondering now whether the headlight led has blown or due to the diode failing,now has no power getting to it.As its a later project to complete,along with converting 5 or 6 Dapol mk3's using PH Design etches to NMT coaches,I'm not too concerned about it but may need to get a new lightboard/cab interior assembly depending on if it has blown the bulb as well.

My understanding is that a diode only allows current to flow in one direction,so if that current can't pass then the bulb on the other side can't receive power.Only problem with this theory though,is why does the redlight still work?

Thoughts please.

Pete
:Class31: :Class37: :NGaugersRule:

Quote from: scotsoft on September 08, 2013, 07:59:08 PM
I think you have opened Pandoras Box  :worried:

I knew a Pandora once. Never got to see her box, though.

Don't worry, I'm already leaving  :D

My thoughts are mixed at the moment, one faultless LT pannier and one wobbly Modellbahn Union Terrier. I will now have to post the Terrier to DCC supplies to get a replacement before I go back to Africa. I won't have time to test Terrier no. 2 but I hope DCC will be able to help.

It's the luck of the draw and I've only had one other Dapol dud so my good luck couldn't last forever.

I currently have the following Dapol locos:
9 x Class 67 (3 Dummy)
5 x Class 86 (2 Dummy)
3 x HSTs
4 x Class 66 (1 Dummy)
2 x Class 221
3 x Class 26 (1 Dummy)
1 x Class 56
1 x Class 121 (Dummy)
4 x Class 153 (2 Dummy)
3 x Class 156 (1 Dummy)
5 x Terriers
1 x Q1
1 x GWR 2884
2 x Small Prairie
3 x Panniers
1 x Hall
1 x 9F
2 x Britannia
4 x Manor (Ixion)

Aside from the odd livery mistake (Shedcode on 2-8-0 for example!), Out of all those listed above i have had:
One 86 died - replacement has been fine
One Britannia shorted in reverse - Sent to DCC Supplies and now runs well
One Manor would not run - Sent to DCC Supplies and now runs well
One Terrier (My new one) had a bent running plate - I noticed this during lunch at TINGs so i took it back and modellbahn swapped it for a good one (Just finished running in!)

So 4 out of a lot isn't too bad in my opinion. I will admit i always test a loco before buying but more often than not the first one i try ends up coming home with me!

Ollie

:NGaugersRule:

Although i know the reasons why Dapol do it I find it irritating that they specialise in limited production runs and if i want to buy something a year or so after it was introduced it is out of stock for ever. Some more ferry wagons would be nice for instance. Having spent all that money producing the casting tools etc is is a pity that they don't continue to use them.

Still, i suppose they will be overwhelmed by 3D printing as the quality improves.

Quote from: davecttr on September 10, 2013, 09:06:58 AM

I find it irritating that they specialise in limited production runs and if i want to buy something a year or so after it was introduced it is out of stock for ever.

I quite like that approach - that way you get a larger choice of liveries, numbers, slight variations, etc., and, of course, it increases the uniqueness and reduces the possibility of seeing the same old few identical models on exhibition layouts.

Plus, it does make Dapol more agile and able to tailor to demand without swamping the market. The problem now is the slowness of getting new product to market and the delays being introduced by the Chinese manufacturing.

H.

Most Dapol items  I have are wagons and coaches, which always appear to be finely made. Only loco is a 14xx which buzzes about without any problems though I've noticed various faults reported.

Always fancied the Terrier, however that model is not currently produced AFAIK, unless someone can say
otherwise.

Must admit I always find their website a bit confusing and not as simple to navigate as Bachmann.

Talking of limited production mentioned by H, I would like to see a Stirling single in N, however
bigger chance of Scotland winning the World Cup. ( Or even qualifying !)

PS their website has a shop section, is it possible to order from that the same as you would from
a retailer or do you have to register or join their club?


Cheers

Allan

You can order direct from them but you pay full RRP unless you are a member and then you get a small discount.  Much cheaper to buy for any of their suppliers. 

I have got loads of Dapol steamers, diesels and electrics. I have had a 67, Western, and 2 86's go pop on me.

The western only did one circuit on Alsagers layout at TINGS. Luckily Osbourne's stand was only across the aisle!

The 67 went back to Dapol and got the motor fixed but not the lights. But it just meant I put the detailing pack on the other end and it only goes that way.

The 86's one blew its lights and the other did its circuits on the PCB. DCC Supplies fixed both of them for me.

Currently my Dapol fleet is standing at 29 and I can only see that number going up.

Alistair

Quote from: H on September 10, 2013, 09:20:02 AM

Quote from: davecttr on September 10, 2013, 09:06:58 AM

I find it irritating that they specialise in limited production runs and if i want to buy something a year or so after it was introduced it is out of stock for ever.

I quite like that approach - that way you get a larger choice of liveries, numbers, slight variations, etc., and, of course, it increases the uniqueness and reduces the possibility of seeing the same old few identical models on exhibition layouts.

Plus, it does make Dapol more agile and able to tailor to demand without swamping the market. The problem now is the slowness of getting new product to market and the delays being introduced by the Chinese manufacturing.

H.

I disagree

For example someone coming new to N-gauge has missed out on all those items which Dapol has released and apparently has little chance of seeing new stock.

Fancy a dozen or so ferry wagons? Ebay is your only choice.

i presume Dapol own the dies etc so what is too stop them bringing them back to this country and molding some plastic of their own?

do you think there is any chance of seeing a class 156 in Saltire livery anytime soon?

or a class 142 anytime in the next few years?

Class 142 Pacer units due mid 2014 now.Ollie spoke to Joel from Dapol on saturday at TINGS.He told him the CAD's had been approved and were waiting for a slot to make the engineering prototypes which then have to be approved followed by decorated samples then to full production.

Pete
:Class31: :Class37: :NGaugersRule:

Quote from: davecttr on September 10, 2013, 04:15:28 PM

I disagree

For example someone coming new to N-gauge has missed out on all those items which Dapol has released and apparently has little chance of seeing new stock.

Fancy a dozen or so ferry wagons? Ebay is your only choice.

i presume Dapol own the dies etc so what is too stop them bringing them back to this country and molding some plastic of their own?

Fine, that's okay with me but it won't change my opinion - I still like it. There's a certain frisson to it.  :D

Why would newcomers want old models. I don't want the old Poole Farish lumps and don't expect to be able to buy them. Newcomers are able to purchase the latest new state-of-the-art models currently being produced. I'm sure there is enough around to spend a fortune on. The manufacturers are constantly announcing and producing new models.

I've already got all the ferry wagons I want - I purchased them when they came out. But the NGS still has some available for purchase AFAIA although you might need to re-paint them in to the livery you want.

Dapol have got around to re-running batches of older models from their range recently so, no doubt, at some time in the future they will produce most of them again - if they consider there is sufficient demand. But just because one or two people want them it isn't necessarily a viable and economic proposal.

H.

Quote from: Pete Mc on September 10, 2013, 04:24:22 PM

He told him the CAD's had been approved and were waiting for a slot to make the engineering prototypes which then have to be approved followed by decorated samples then to full production.

Hmm, that sound like the just about the complete manufacturing process - so, that means nothing is really in hand. I'd guess at the current rate of production, a mid 2014 target date (less than a year now) is not a realistic expectation for completed models to be on sale.  :uneasy:

H.

Quote from: H on September 10, 2013, 05:04:40 PM
Why would newcomers want old models?

That's an easy one to answer. To be able to build up a decent stud of locos at reasonable prices before they start paying top dollar for the brand new fine-scale models. Generally, you can get two older locos for the price of one new one, and perhaps even three for one. That's quite an incentive.

The old models can be improved and made pretty reasonable with some very simple work to add extras such as cab rails, vacuum pipes, realistic coal loads, etc. They can also be used as test beds for renumbering, repainting, or as chassis for kits, so there seems to be quite a wide field of use for the old lumps  ;)

Quote from: davecttr on September 10, 2013, 04:15:28 PM
i presume Dapol own the dies etc so what is too stop them bringing them back to this country and molding some plastic of their own?

Availability of suitable moulding equipment
Whether the moulds are usable (you can make 'cheap' low volume moulds in aluminium or similar materials)
Whether they own the tooling
Whether even if they own the tooling they can extract it from the moulder

It's very common that the actual tools remain the property of the tooling/moulding company. Even if it doesn't I know people who've found that getting hold of their own tools is akin to getting your kitten back from next doors rotweiler.

I have *no idea* what Dapol's actual situation is here.

There are plenty of second hand models around and sometimes where there has been a long gap and new demand Dapol have done re-runs. Dapol and their dealers are perfectly capable of working out when the market will take a re-run - which is not the same as "Hattons don't have it"

Alan

Quote from: Pete33 on September 10, 2013, 05:28:31 PM

That's an easy one to answer. To be able to build up a decent stud of locos at reasonable prices before they start paying top dollar for the brand new fine-scale models. Generally, you can get two older locos for the price of one new one, and perhaps even three for one. That's quite an incentive.

The old models can be improved and made pretty reasonable with some very simple work to add extras such as cab rails, vacuum pipes, realistic coal loads, etc. They can also be used as test beds for renumbering, repainting, or as chassis for kits, so there seems to be quite a wide field of use for the old lumps

The quick and easy response is that it is quite possible to build up a decent stud of locos from current models.

I can't agree that older stuff is good value even if a little cheaper - I doubt very much that beginners would be undertaking such modelling upgrading and rectification work as you suggest, and that it cost money to improve them making the models just as expensive as current ones. And TBQH the prices for some lame, second-hand, old lumps, especially on ebay, that are in running condition, aren't exactly cheap.

However, for practicing painting and other modelling techniques on, cheap non-runners are a better bet. But I'd suggest that type of activity is a little more advanced than beginners just initially wanting RTR.

H.

If you want a low cost Dapol loco the best bet is to get along to a show where Dapol has a stand.  I picked up a LNER B1 and Network South East class 121 at TINGS last year at relatively low cost (£45 each from memory); at Warley I bought an Ixon Manor for about the same; this year's TINGS saw another good selection of bargains (even if you had to brave assault by rucksack to get them).

On the whole I've been impressed with the Dapol models I've bought.  Some items are showing their age (the Collett coaches would benefit from a re-design to incorporate close coupling and flush glazing).  I've been lucky (perhaps) to only have one poorly performing Dapol loco; doing a rough count that's one out of nine Dapol locos, which is about the same as the ratio of duff Bachman Farish locos I've had.

I also admire how open Dapol has been with the development of its new models.  It will be interesting to see if the sharing of CAD models for review on certain web forums will continue now Dave Jones has moved on.  As far as I'm aware no other manufacturer has given such an insight into the progress of its new models and done its best to use the feedback to make the models more accurate.

My first thought on Dapol is that their entry to the N Gauge market was the best thing to happen to the scale in the last 20 years, not necessarily for the models they produced but in that it gave Farish some competition - having two (or more) major players in the market stops a sole manufacturer becoming complacent and keeps up the pace of development.

On Dapol's performance, I think they've had some major successes - B17, Class 26, HSTs, but there have been a few issues - some of the early locos  e.g .Prairie, Ivatt were eratic performers and the B1 didn't quite match the Farish version in appearance.
They have also been responsible for some inovations such as the auto-couplings and signals (OK they're not a match for a scratchbuilt finescale model but are the first ready to use motorised examples)
They have however let themselves down a little at times with daft things such as the variability of colours on the mk3s and the pale grey wheels on some steam locos.

Their communication is 'different' to other manufacturers. At times I've been impressed by the openness but at others i've thought "did he really just say that" when I've read comments by their spokesman...

Overall peoples impressions of the company is 'Marmite': There are very vocal comentators for whom they can do nothing right whereas others believe they can do no wrong and it seems in some circles you have to be either 'For' or 'Against' which I find strange...

Paul

Quote from: Pete Mc on September 10, 2013, 04:24:22 PM
Class 142 Pacer units due mid 2014 now.Ollie spoke to Joel from Dapol on saturday at TINGS.He told him the CAD's had been approved and were waiting for a slot to make the engineering prototypes which then have to be approved followed by decorated samples then to full production.

Pete
:Class31: :Class37: :NGaugersRule:

It seems like we have been waiting an eternity for the 142! I really do hope its worth the wait. I could be mistaken but haven't some retailers been taking deposits on this item for a while now.

After owning many Dapol and Farish locos I think I have a pretty balanced view of both manufacturers products. I have found that there are generally less failures from new with Farish locos but there are still some quality control issues. New release Dapol and Farish diesels are pretty much on a par but steam is a different area.

Here are some Dapol steam observations:

Dapol valve gear is extremely delicate and is made from very thin metal, therefore any issues with any part of the valve gear can cause everything to get damaged.

Dapol A4s and A3s have moulded buffers rather than separately fitted ones which are very prone to damage if not treated extremely carefully. These buffers, especially on the A3s are very crude in appearance as are the banjo domes. Compare a Dapol A3 with a Farish A1 and the difference is pretty huge.

Dapol liveries are often an incorrect shade.

Details such as whistles are plastic rather than turned metal.

Dapol motors always run warm / hot from new but this tends to settle down. Dapol steam locos generally need hours of running in.

Dapol 2884s, A4s and A3s are generally very noisy from new but do settle down and are improved by adding weight etc.

I have owned 6 A4s. Half have been faulty, the others are very good models. The faults were: Out of gauge driving wheels, screeching and valve gear falling apart. One of the good ones did have an issue with the speedo cable coming adrift and was fixed by DCC Supplies.

I found the new Q1 to have pickup problems and got through quite a few before I found a good one and this was only after DCC Supplies looked at it. There was resistance in the loco pickups so the loco would slow down over points.

Over the years I have had issues with Dapol and Farish so I am not against Dapol and I think some of their models are excellent. So far the new A3 I bought from TINGS in BR blue is a great runner and was quiet and smooth straight away.

I am also a member of the Nthusiast club.

Cheers,
Ian.

My replacement MBU Terrier has just arrived by post, excellent service and help from DCC Supplies. Unfortunately I won't be able to test it until I'm back home in Africa so fingers crossed.

I know you all moan about Royal Mail but I still can't get used to how efficient their service is compared to ours.

Regards

Veronica.

:D

My thoughts on Dapol? Try before you buy.

I've had my fare share of duds, but in the same breath, when I've bought from my local shop instead of online and sifted through their stock for the good ones, they are generally quite good. I'm not so much a fan of the matt finish, the over light shade of Railfreight Grey or the green 'BR Blue' they have used in the past. The frailty of their steamers (electrically and mechanically) has meant that I have not bought any since the 9F and the only one I have left is a heavily modified Ivatt, but the diesels have been good when I apply the 'try before you buy' mantra.

Quote from: H on September 12, 2013, 12:12:57 PMSo I'd be interested to hear your, or anyone else, suggestions and ideas of how we can get encourage constructional modelling, although, of course, there is nothing wrong with 'tried it, didn't like it' (so long as it wasn't just the once many years ago) or finding fulfilment, satisfaction and fun with a limited involvement in the hobby.

This subject is certainly worthy of a thread in itself, maybe worth splitting this off into its own topic.

I gave up trying, I got bored of being branded a rivet counter/elitest/whatever the latest in vogue derogatory term is for someone who even hints that there are better results to be found when you don't just open a parcel and tip its contents out. My latest one was this past weekend when I was approached to build a bridge for someone who didn't appreciate the quote for 20 hours worth of work plus materials and seemed most offended that I suggested they could achieve what they wanted for far less by modifying a Scalescenes kit themself, something along the lines of 'I'm not paying to print out that stuff as well as for the kit'. I hate to say it but some people just want it all done for them, and there are a number of people who have no time for those who actually do go to the effort, seemingly happier berating you for your efforts or opinion than having a go at doing something themselves. Having said that, nothing pleases me more than seeing the fruits of someone who has gone to the effort of making something for themselves, glue and paint overspill, warts n' all. And if I can encourage them to try something else and begin to hone some skill then all the better. Sadly in this day and age, even constructive criticism is all too often taken poorly or out of context, and the safest way is to say nothing at all...and for some, that lack of acknowledgment is as good as saying something negative.

Quote from: EtchedPixels on September 12, 2013, 12:23:27 PM
I can't imagine why you would want to use an RSU in N gauge in the first place.

Not having any suitable kits in this scale for an RSU, all I can offer is that surely it's the same reason as for other scales - sometimes it's a damn sight quicker & easier with an RSU than an ordinary iron ...

They each have their good points; I've just been doing some electronic repairs, and my old plain iron was my choice; but for lots of brass kit work, the RSU gets turned on.

There was an extremely interesting discussion about encouraging constructional modelling/kit-bashing etc. as part of this thread :thumbsup:

So that the discussion does not get lost amongst this topic on Dapol and also to make it easier for members considering kitbashing etc to find information on the forum whilst searching, I have split off the relevant posts into a new topic called Encouraging constructional modelling/kitbashing etc (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=16394.msg162069#msg162069). This title might not be ideal but it is the best I could come up with at the time

Pretty fed up this morning as my second A4 from TINGS is now winging its way to DCC Supplies. Both black Modelbahn Union locos. One limped along from first run until it broke its lubricator arm linkage and the other ran fro a few hours before its valve gear fell apart. £240 worth of locos. Both oiled with Dapoil as instructed.

My experiences in owning and running these locos have been mixed:

Steamers - I owned two M7s, two Terriers and a Q1 (early version), all now sold.
The Q1 was the best runner by far.
However the M7s were light on their feet and persistently derailed on Fleischmann points.
Both Terriers had wheels that slipped on their axles, losing their quartering, both were promptly replaced but having waited years for a working N scale version, I gave up owning any more in frustration.

Diesels - at various times I owned two 73s, 4 early 66s, 2 later "supercreep" 66s, two 153s and a Virgin class 220 Voyager.
I still own the Voyager, both the class 66 supercreep versions (66181 and 66709 Sorrento) and the 153s, they've been OK. The inter-unit magnetic couplers on the Voyager are much better than Farish's version because all I have to do is to make sure they're correctly orientated on the track.
The InterCity Exec 73 was a very good runner but the blue 73 derailed on Fleischmann points, the early 66s were OK except for one of the GBRF versions which had a very tight mechanism.

I'm waiting to see how their revised Manor due later this year works out as it's a "must have" loco type (two were shedded at Tyseley when my mother lived in the area in the early 1960s)

The derailing on Fleischmann points is usually the back to back. They are NEM (ie European) standard trackwork and fairly coarse while Dapol uses NMRA (US type) wheels but not the full US back to back. End result is things fall into them - 3 ways are the worst by far.

The M7 bogie is a pain - too light and if you spring it too much the loco then can't haul anything but the 73 back to back is easy to fix and it'll then be happy on Fleischmann track. I've had to fix a few Farish models to handle the 3 ways as well. Again back to back way off.

Alan

I find Dapols catalogue a bit like a politicians promises "all hot air and no action", Maunsell coaches have apparently been on the cards for 6 years or more, along with these I would like to see the BOB/WC and desperately want the SCHOOLS, I have the GWR pannier and the SR liveried Terrier 2659 (named CHEAM, where I lived for my first 21 years) on pre order. I think my best bet is to add a codicil to my will for my executors to auction these on the forum if they ever turn up! I do think they should only advertise models that they intend to produce within the next 12 months.

I was interested to hear about the Fleischmann points, that explains why the Dapol locos tested on a friend's layout needed help to get through the points.

Quote from: MinZaPint on September 15, 2013, 05:53:27 PM
I find Dapols catalogue a bit like a politicians promises "all hot air and no action",
<snip>
I do think they should only advertise models that they intend to produce within the next 12 months.

Dapol isn't the only one to do that.  The lead time on Graham Farish's new items is similarly prone to setbacks.  To be fair, the models are worth waiting for (on the whole) so I don't think we should complain too much.

Quote from: MinZaPint on September 15, 2013, 05:53:27 PM

Maunsell coaches have apparently been on the cards for 6 years or more,

I don't think they were 'officially' announced that long ago and that the Farish Ivatt held the record for the longest gestation period from appearing in a brochure, although I'd have thought that the Dapol class 142 railcar/class 92 electric loco will push that record by the time they are available.  :D

H.

Ok I am going to put my head above the para-pit here and possibly say something stupid out of ignorance, for which I apologies in advance!

I have already commented on my experience of the quality of Dapol Models (positive). Now, with the recent talks of delays in new products, I am back for another 2 pence...

....On balance I am on the side of "don't tell me about it if I can't have it for more than a year" school of thought.

I know its nice to have something to look forward to, but broken promises (no matter who or what causes them) are worse than ignorance of what's coming surely?

Ok, hard hat on and back in the trench.... :worried:

Skyline2uk

Announcing models that are likely to be unavailable for an extended period of time is an easy and cheap way to avoid doing any proper market research.

By counting up the advance orders they can establish whether it will be profitable to manufacture an item or not.  So the popular ones get designed and manufactured, and the unpopular ones join the end of a queue that may never get past the concept / CAD stage.

Cynical, moi?  :-\

Quote from: Leo1961 on September 15, 2013, 07:24:14 PM
Announcing models that are likely to be unavailable for an extended period of time is an easy and cheap way to avoid doing any proper market research.

Its also something the manufacturers do to avoid colliding with one another. They can't go around sitting in dark and smoky rooms (*) agreeing who will produce what without competition people getting grumpy, but they can flag their intentions in public (and of course use it as a cynical way to mark out territory).

Alan
(*) to start with they are not allowed to smoke indoors in meetings now

On reading some peoples views and experiences I'm sometimes glad I model Irish outline.
If I want it I have to make it. Which is fine until I need a suitable chassis.
Then of course I may need a Dapol one so I'm then in the same boat as everyone else!

Quoteauthor=EtchedPixels link=topic=16213.msg163167#msg163167 date=13792713
(*) to start with they are not allowed to smoke indoors in meetings now

That got me thinking, how do jazz clubs manage now?  :hmmm:

:oopssign: :offtopicsign: :sorrysign:

On long lead times, all manufacturers are equally guilty...

I have no objection to new products being anounced well in advance - as well as giving other manufacturers notice and potentially avoiding wasteful duplication, it gives buyers time to save up.

What I would like to see though is more realistic timescales given at the time of anouncement (and preferably an indication of what stage of the design process it is actually at) and then progress reports and if the timescales do slip (which is entirely forgivable in many cases due to unforseen or third party issues), open & honest communication of reasons for delay and revised timescales...

I really wish Farish hadn't abandoned their 9F. It would no doubt have been a stunning model.

In my experience (which is limited to HSTs/EMUs/DMUs and one diesel loco) . . .

If I buy a train from Kato, either new or second hand, I have almost 100% confidence that it will work straight away with no further tinkering required :thumbsup:

If I buy a train from Farish, I have slightly less confidence because of any split gear issues with second hand but my experience of new stuff has been good :thumbsup: My experience of Arnold and Fleischmann is more limited but no issues so far.

If I buy a train from Dapol, then I am not nearly as confident that it will work straight out of the box without any sort of  'tinkering'  :worried: The instructions also say some trains must be oiled before they are run and I therefore think that a small tube of oil should be included. All of my Dapol HSTs and a Voyager decouple themselves when running which means the couplings require adjustment, a minor issue that can be fixed relatively easily but should customers be expected to do this :thumbsdown: and the front lights packed up on the driving car of one of my HSTs. On the plus side, I am very happy with the performance of the motors :thumbsup: The Voyager runs at 125mph scale speed where as Farish's can only manage 85 mph but the light clusters on the Farish are more detailed.

Quote from: Pengi on September 16, 2013, 06:24:11 AM

If I buy a train from Dapol,. . . . The instructions also say some trains must be oiled before they are run and I therefore think that a small tube of oil should be included.

By that reasoning all locos for all manufacturers should include a tube of oil as at some time (as part of their regular servicing) they all need to be oiled. But IMO probably not a good idea - imagine the mess if a tube should leak en route. Besides Farish locos are often supplied over oiled and have a surfeit that needs cleaning up, so they have enough to share around for a whole MPD  :D

Quite honestly all manufacturers have specific issues and could do with improving mechanical quality and reliability. The big issue is are people prepared to pay for it?

H.

Quote from: Elvinley on September 15, 2013, 10:24:48 PM
I really wish Farish hadn't abandoned their 9F. It would no doubt have been a stunning model.

Yes, I totally agree, it was a disappointment that they dropped it from their plans.

Assuming it had followed the route of the current generation of coreless motor loco-drive models it would have been really something - I'd order (at least) one like a shot.

I have two Dapol ones from the first batch, I hardly run them. On one especially loco pickup is poor and slow running barely adequate. By the standards of the current crop of Farish offerings they are (in my opinion) somewhat "flaky" and cheap and nasty, never really living up to the declared "Platinum" status or £105 price tag. Admittedly later batches were improved a little and the weathered one looks fabulous, but still, in my view there is plastic where there should have been metal in a number of areas, and it is a model that cannot be easily dismantled for maintenance.

Dapol have slowed the pace of releases of this model and I suspect the tooling will not last forever. The question is would Bachmann ever consider there adequate market for this model given the Dapol one? Sadly I fear not which is a shame.

Regards

Roy

Quote from: bigbob on September 08, 2013, 08:06:18 PM
I was after some spares from them. Spoke to Joel who took my details and said he would send them in the post FOC so we`ll see...........

Turned up as promised so fair play to them :D

Some oil in the fire. :)

That Dapol isn't a company where you can buy with 100 % confidence I do agree. I am at a point now that if I want something Dapol at least I buy it in a store so I can see it running.

on the other hand Dapol has got an excellent repair service with DCC, I have under repair 3 x a class 43 with light issues, dummy and or power or both and a class 66, in total 6 pieces. all fixed within a week and posted back to me for arrival Monday. all under warranty with at least three of them based on my honesty that i didn't had the receipts anymore.

( pengie if your class 43 is out of warranty buy a replacement light pcb board cost you £ 14,-- and is very easy to do yourselves. )

My thoughts, you pay for what you get, if you want top quality buy Fleischman, Roco of something similar and pay three times the price. or accept that Dapol and in a less way GF are offering a more value for money product.

( I am back under my stone now as I expect some grief turning up  :) :))

Maurits, I think you will find that a lot of us agree with you.

My replacement Terrier has been run in this week, it didn't have the wobble that the first one did but sounded like a demented wasp. As I'm thousands of miles away and couldn't return it, I gave it a thorough running in for about two hours on and off and it has quietened down considerably. Not everyone would have my patience.

However, all my other Terriers have been good from the word go and I have an excellent pannier tank purchased recently.

It seems to come down to luck caused by lack of quality control. Dapol are not alone though,  my next loco to fix up is a Farish 4mt with dodgy pick ups.

Quote from: Maurits71 on September 28, 2013, 06:04:44 PM
on the other hand Dapol has got an excellent repair service with DCC, I have under repair 3 x a class 43 with light issues, dummy and or power or both and a class 66, in total 6 pieces. all fixed within a week and posted back to me for arrival Monday. all under warranty with at least three of them based on my honesty that i didn't had the receipts anymore.

( pengie if your class 43 is out of warranty buy a replacement light pcb board cost you £ 14,-- and is very easy to do yourselves. )

Hi

Out of interest does anyone know which lights should work on the power cars of the NMT yellow HST as mine only shows a white light on the left side viewed from the nose on the power car with the buffers.

Cheers

Paul

Contacted Dapol over the weekend regarding a faulty loco purchased from its stand at TINGS.  Used the 'contact us' form on the web site.  Had a reply today with a freepost address to return the loco for replacement.  Can't fault that for a response.

My thoughts are mixed at the moment as are the performances of my two new locos. A terrier that was very noisy but has now quietened down and runs very well, touch wood  :)  and a pannier which ran superbly to start off with but now has a surging motor when running backwards.  :'(  Good thing it will run mainly forwards as I'm not able to send it back.

One of my new Farish locos needs attention too.

I do wish we were able to buy British outline steam locos with complete confidence and not have to do our own quality control. 

:ngauge:

Quote from: silly moo on October 04, 2013, 01:16:10 PM
  and a pannier which ran superbly to start off with but now has a surging motor when running backwards.  :'(  Good thing it will run mainly forwards as I'm not able to send it back.

Power pickup on the panniers is not good (one of the ones I have was exceptionally bad - stalling repeatedly on straight clean track). I've had to strip two down completely to get them to run reliably, cleaning the phosphor axle bearings and properly setting them in the chassis, as well as cleaning the axles themselves. The lubricant seems to readily make its way into these parts (particularly between the chassis sides and bearings) and really hinders performance, as does the fact the phosphor bearings were often loose in the chassis sides.

I have a third loco on the stack to do the same to.

Cheers,
Alan

Oh dear! I thought the panniers were one of the better Dapol locos.

I also wish they'd provide an exploded diagram of the loco like Farish do, I suppose that with the extended guarantee they assume most people will send the locos back for repair and not need to do any tinkering.

Perhaps we can ask the new technical man to consider providing diagrams even if they are just on the website.

Quote from: Dr Al on October 04, 2013, 01:25:31 PM
themselves. The lubricant seems to readily make its way into these parts (particularly between the chassis sides and bearings) and really hinders performance,

I'm not surprised it gets in there - it's a tiny gap with two smooth surfaces and most lubricants are designed to make good use of capilliary action to get places. I've not found a good conducting lubricant for N gauge.

Interestingly 2fs has similar problems with the split frame and split axle pick up arrangement and seems to have mostly gone over to adding small phosphor bronze springs to improve pickup.

Hi everyone hope you all are well ?
I have not really had any problems from Dapol , Apart from a fastline 66 whose light were running
in the opposite direction to which the loco was running   :smiley-laughing: ( Disconnected the lights i can live with that  :) ) Other than that i am really impressed with the running  :claphappy:

Hi there,
I have a fleet of 7 DMU's, 5 on Farish chassis, a Greenmax and a Dapol. My 156 is the second best of the runners, bet you can't guess the best!!
There are 4 which are RTR, the 156, in my opinion, looks the best, although it does have an electrical issue in the dummy vehicle (directional lighting).
What I think does let Dapol down, is the limited runs that they do on each product. I do wish though, when they announce a product is going to be produced that we wouldn't have to wait 4 years and still not see it!!

All In All, I would buy more of there products that suit my era and location!!!

Steven

Quote from: bees on October 08, 2013, 10:36:59 PM
What I think does let Dapol down, is the limited runs that they do on each product.

This is due to the way China manufacture and to keep costs down on shipping etc. Alot it is annoying where there is so many B1's up for sale, but can you get hold of the pannier tank in GWR. Not really they sell out in minutues.

Quote from: bees on October 08, 2013, 10:36:59 PMI do wish though, when they announce a product is going to be produced that we wouldn't have to wait 4 years and still not see it!!

I do think dapol have their marketing stratagy wrong. When we have been coming close to release of a product we have always done teaser pictures, that show some of the product. Gets people talking about it, trying to guess what it is etc. Then we release the product at the shows. take the class 50 now looks like late 2014, and going by the past history thats earliest 2014.

The one thing I would say to Dapol is stop relasing new products and not delievering them, concentrate what you have espically rolling stock, give us more running numbers for one, when was the last time there was blue/grey coaches for Virgin coaches for sale. I have not seen any in shops.

I understand and agree GWR -Kris, i think though, this is something which lets down both Dapol and Farish though, stop concentrating on Loco's, even just for a month, and bring out more rolling stock, especially second class coaches where there is numerous amounts in a train.
Dapol with differing running numbers on second class Blue/Grey and Virgin.
Farish should bring out alot more MkII's, again, mainly TSO's
albeit, after everything i've said, i'd still purchase Dapol over Farish

Quote from: bees on October 08, 2013, 10:36:59 PM
What I think does let Dapol down, is the limited runs that they do on each product.

So do Farish, just that Dapol's runs are shorter. Farish seem happier/more financially able to sit on stocks in their warehouse whereas Dapol would rather get things sold out so they can use the income.

Quote from: GWR-Kris on October 09, 2013, 09:25:02 AM
I do think dapol have their marketing stratagy wrong. When we have been coming close to release of a product we have always done teaser pictures, that show some of the product. Gets people talking about it, trying to guess what it is etc. Then we release the product at the shows. take the class 50 now looks like late 2014, and going by the past history thats earliest 2014.

Unfortunately that isn't unique to Dapol - Farish have been equally guilty.  At least (to date) with Dapol because they showed off the CAD there was a reasonable chance that errors would be spotted and corrected (I know it hasn't happened in all cases).

I do think there is a degree of impatience on the part of some (not necessarily you Kris) - we know development takes a long time, but sometimes it seems as though the end of the world is upon if a model doesn't appear within X months/years. For example the class 50 was announced mid-July 2012, we have seen some CAD so I think your estimate of 2014 is possibly realistic but I wouldn't have expected it earlier anyway (particularly given other delays).

Although it can be frustrating waiting for a signature loco for your layout (a Pendolino and 92 for me!) you either live with what we have, wait or get very (perhaps unnecessarily) frustrated!

Cheers, Mike

Cheers, Mike

IMHO I think if we take a step back and think about what we put up with from the sixties through to the nineties, I don't think we should be nitpicking about who brings out what and when. I am just grateful and amazed that this stuff appears at all. To me the new products have revitalised N gauge

George.

Whilst I could have a bit of a moan about Dapol's short runs that make the locos that I'd like to get pretty expensive on the second-hand market, the range of locos and rolling stock on offer these days is incredible when I compare it to my first stint in the hobby (late 1970s-early1980s). There are more goodies on offer than I could possibly buy (at least, in the short term), and creating the layout I'm aiming for is entirely possible with relative ease, so overall I'd say I'm a happy bunny. Mind you, I have yet to give any of my locos any serious running time, so reliability issues are something for the future.

Quote from: Bealman on October 09, 2013, 10:54:40 AM
I don't think we should be nitpicking about who brings out what and when. I am just grateful and amazed that this stuff appears at all. To me the new products have revitalised N gauge

George.

Exactly.......
Well said George..... :thumbsup:

The 1970s was certainly a bit different. Manufacturers would introduce a tiny number of new models each year because of the cost of tooling something new back then and the time it took to get the money back.

It took Hornby nearly ten years from the class 47s hitting the rails to the model appearing and even longer to get around to actually producing a DMU.

Quote from: EtchedPixels on October 09, 2013, 02:21:53 PM
The 1970s was certainly a bit different. Manufacturers would introduce a tiny number of new models each year because of the cost of tooling something new back then and the time it took to get the money back.

It took Hornby nearly ten years from the class 47s hitting the rails to the model appearing and even longer to get around to actually producing a DMU.

In which case we definitely can't complain about waiting for a couple of years for the forthcoming Maunsell carriages or whatever else it is we're after.

Quote from: Bealman on October 09, 2013, 10:54:40 AM
I don't think we should be nitpicking about who brings out what and when.

I think nitpicking and suchlike has helped push manufacturers to improve. Without it I doubt we'd have what we do...

Cheers,
Alan

Quote from: Dr Al on October 09, 2013, 03:05:03 PM

Quote from: Bealman on October 09, 2013, 10:54:40 AM
I don't think we should be nitpicking about who brings out what and when.

I think nitpicking and suchlike has helped push manufacturers to improve. Without it I doubt we'd have what we do...

Cheers,
Alan

Constructive criticism may push manufacturers to improve.
Nitpicking.....well i don't think they take any notice of that... :no:

I think it depends upon the circumstances and if its constructive.

There was a lot of nit-picking over the Dapol CAD for things like the Western and contributions of the finest rivet-counting order by people who knew every minute detail difference of every locomotive involved. It's made for a better model.

I think vendors do care. When I was talking with one of the Bachmann people about the 04 when it was just out I mentioned how impressed I was to find only one small error on it. The man concerned was most interested to know exactly what the error was - in hindsight I am sure because they were tooling up the 03 in secret at that time.

Some people have the idea that the model companies are just beancounters, marketing and people in China making things. That's far from the truth. Many of them are modellers and other railway related people. I imagine those that are not still want to produce the best product they can at the price point they are set.

Alan

So far I have a Class66, 2 Class 67s, an M7 (converted into a Caley), and Ivatt 262T, a Brit, a 5 car Virgin voyager and a 156.  No reliability problems with any of them.  The Ivatt needed the keeper plate screws slackend by eigth of a turn to make it run nicely.  And as regards appearance, the standard of all of them is excellent.

On another thread I have expressed my preference for the Dapol magnetic coupling of the Voyager over that horrible system used by Farish (not repeated on the blue Pullman I note!!!).

I have also expressed elsewhere my strong dislike of their carden shaft connecting tenders to locos on steam engines.  They become disconnected much more easily than yhey can be reconnected!  I will not be replacing my Minitrix 9F, and my Farish A3 and A4 in part because of this.

I have been delighted with those wagons and the Geresely coaches I have bought.

But I certainly consider Dapol were rightly chastised for turning out the B! and Brit with those silly silver grey wheels when the earlier steam models had black wheels.  The A3 and A4 seem to be better in that respect.

I am not in need of HSTs, though I was tempted by a Grand Central book set at Aly Paly, but it seems thoughtless to produce power cars and short book sets without producing matching centre cars in reasonable numbers at the same time.  OK I accept that not every purchaser will want to form a full rake but most of those I know who have considered the model were thinking in terms of 2+5or6 as a minimum.  I would have though in terms of 2+6 if I had bought the Grand central version.  The Club layout would handle that.

Niggles apart they are to be congratulated on bringing another source to market.  As others rightly point out when I started in N (in 1976) we could hardly have dreamed of the quantity and quality we now have.  Dapol have been part of that.

Quote from: Portpatrick on October 09, 2013, 05:34:50 PM


But I certainly consider Dapol were rightly chastised for turning out the B! and Brit with those silly silver grey wheels when the earlier steam models had black wheels.  The A3 and A4 seem to be better in that respect.

And the Hall was initially produced with these Grey wheels. The new batch of Halls look a lot better with darker paint on the body and black wheels.

Quote from: Elvinley on October 09, 2013, 09:23:52 PM

Quote from: Portpatrick on October 09, 2013, 05:34:50 PM


But I certainly consider Dapol were rightly chastised for turning out the B! and Brit with those silly silver grey wheels when the earlier steam models had black wheels.  The A3 and A4 seem to be better in that respect.

And the Hall was initially produced with these Grey wheels. The new batch of Halls look a lot better with darker paint on the body and black wheels.

Shame nearly all the new Halls I've seen have bent running plates :-(

See my thread about this: http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=16825.0 (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=16825.0)

 I have several Dapol models. Class 66,67,156,86. . A few minor niggles. One 66 had to go back, drew more power than fiddlers ferry power station, a mile down the road can produce.  :unimpressed:To move 3inches.
The 67 is by far the best loco, others may not think so. Mine is a superb runner just keep the track clean,to show its slow speed as at its best.

All in all they produce a good selection of items for our gauge.

But! And an issue. Hope they are not leave us out,while they work on more 00 and the rtf 0 gauge.

Anyone's thoughts?

I will be very interested to see their first new loco since Dave Jones left last year, I'm looking forward to seeing what the new design and production team come up with quality wise, will it be better or worse?

Hi Ronnie (silly moo)

I'm looking forward to their next model as well - it should be the class 33 with NEM sockets and their super-duper slow running motor !

The running characteristics with decoders fitted combined with their magnetic couplers make a shunting layout in N a workable hands-off reality, so we no longer need to confine ourselves to mainline running !

Bob B

Class 33? I like the sound of that!

I will be very interested to see their first new loco since Dave Jones left last year, I'm looking forward to seeing what the new design and production team come up with quality wise, will it be better or worse?


I'm sure many of us will be thinking along the same lines (no pun intended)
The widely held feeling is that Dave Jones was the leading light behind Dapol locos.
Personally I have had very few problems with Dapol steam locos, other than the flimsy wires between tender and loco on a Britannia ( a common problem) and the general growl most locos make compared to Farish.

The current team at Dapol will need at the very least  to produce stuff on a par to what went before them (IMHO)                    Maybe a combination of fresh skills and ideas will bring a range of improvements. .. or maybe not!
The Grange may be an indicator of things to come, as it may have improvements on the  similar Hall.   

Quote from: trkilliman on January 05, 2014, 10:02:56 PM
I will be very interested to see their first new loco since Dave Jones left last year, I'm looking forward to seeing what the new design and production team come up with quality wise, will it be better or worse?

Bear in mind a lot of stuff that's still to come may well have been designed already, prior to Dave's departure. I suspect it'll be a bit of time before any notable design changes start to come in....

Cheers,
Alan

A fair point Dr Al.

It may also depend how much of the mechanism design for the mechanism was done in China anyway.

Alan

I'm hoping they will improve quality control but as that would push the price up, I can't really see it happening. At least they have the two year guarantee.

Honestly, folks, I stick with my mindset at the moment. If you have cut yerself on the old British Poole stuff, today is like model railway Heaven.

I have acquired 6 locos (not including the Blue Pullman) since the Poole overhaul - both Farish and Dapol - perhaps I've been lucky, but all work well, and, as I have said in other posts, are streets ahead of anything I ever bought during the 70s, 80s and 90s.

Oh.... that's 30 years.... where'd they go.  :uneasy:

Quote from: silly moo on January 06, 2014, 10:34:19 AM
I'm hoping they will improve quality control but as that would push the price up, I can't really see it happening. At least they have the two year guarantee.

Check the small print on your 2 year "no quibble" guarantee. I've just been told by DCC Supplies that the second year is only activated after 12 month service (chargeable - £15 per loco, I think).

The guarantee is not much use to me and most probably others living overseas as added to the extra year extension fee, will be postage and in my case the chance the loco will not reach Dapol or come back due to our dreadful postal system.

It's not Dapol's fault we have such a bad postal system but it does mean that if something does go wrong with my locos, I will be trying to fix them myself.

When Dapol Dave was at Dapol he was very helpful and gave me advice regarding a minor problem with a Q1. The people at Bachmann are usually very helpful too and I'm lucky to have the kind folks on this forum who are great.

At least we have nice weather here  :D

Good designed in quality often drives cost down
The 5% return rate on N gauge locos is dire enough for that to be true for some parts.

IMHO the big problem is that the old locos are designed to be serviced so can be repaired easily and a bit of tinkering isny a big job. The current models manage to be crap mechanically, poorly designed, badly quality controlled and unserviceable.

My guess is most of the older locos will outlive the current stuff.

The more crap gets sent back and the more people assert their rights the better for the hobby.

Alan

Quote from: EtchedPixels on January 06, 2014, 01:45:52 PM
Good designed in quality often drives cost down
The 5% return rate on N gauge locos is dire enough for that to be true for some parts.

IMHO the big problem is that the old locos are designed to be serviced so can be repaired easily and a bit of tinkering isny a big job. The current models manage to be crap mechanically, poorly designed, badly quality controlled and unserviceable.

My guess is most of the older locos will outlive the current stuff.

The more crap gets sent back and the more people assert their rights the better for the hobby.

Alan

I completely agree.

I've spent most of the last 20 years of my working life trying to get this point across in 1/1th scale engineering. Quality Quality Quality, engineer it in and drive down the lifetime cost

Arghh I'm not back to work until tomorrow and I promised I wash't going to think about it over the break….

I agree with EP about bad design, the new locos look beautiful but are very difficult to service, just one look at all the detail parts liable to break off is enough to discourage me.

I did have a go at adjusting Farish pick ups recently and even with the exploded diagram they provide it was a tricky job.

Dapol give no exploded diagrams so I've never attempted to work on their locos.

Is it possible to produce a fully detailed scale steam loco that is easy to service? Do the Continental and Japanese locos fall into that category?

You can say what you like about the old Poole Farish and Minitrix locos but they are easy to work on and in their own way, well made and robust (with the exception of the plastic gears.)

Quote from: silly moo on January 06, 2014, 03:56:33 PM
I agree with EP about bad design, the new locos look beautiful but are very difficult to service, just one look at all the detail parts liable to break off is enough to discourage me.

I did have a go at adjusting Farish pick ups recently and even with the exploded diagram they provide it was a tricky job.

Dapol give no exploded diagrams so I've never attempted to work on their locos.

Is it possible to produce a fully detailed scale steam loco that is easy to service? Do the Continental and Japanese locos fall into that category?

You can say what you like about the old Poole Farish and Minitrix locos but they are easy to work on and in their own way, well made and robust (with the exception of the plastic gears.)

A lot of the Japanese chassis are very easy to service and with great parts catalogues, the same is true of many US chassis including a lot of US Bachmann diesels. Bachmann offer real warranties on their US stock, parts and the like. It's just the UK they take for a ride it seems.

Yesterday I unpacked and ran my Dapol Voyager for the first time in ages.

It's quietened down now and I really like the inter-unit magnetic couplers, it's a hassle free job coupling up the carriages in the correct order, quite why they didn't use the idea for other units beside the Voyagers.

My experience mirrors Bealman's. Since returning to N of all the locomotives, I've had trouble with just one (a Farish dmu). All the Dapol and the other Farish stuff has worked well out of the box and continues to do so. Having said that, it's all modern image, no steamers so no outside connecting rods to bend or quartering to go wrong; and split gears are probably less likely with short trains and slow speeds to limit the torque in the transmissions.

I think both Dapol and Farish are now streets ahead and my purchases seem to work (except if I muck it up but that doesn't count). As related in a different thread on this forum, I think Dapol are better but this is because of their coupling system (NEM sockets and easy-shunt magnetic couplings). This forum exposes problems that Dapol models have but without going back and working out the figures my impression is that most relate to steam outline.

Quote from: BobB on January 06, 2014, 07:10:19 PM

I think both Dapol and Farish are now streets ahead and my purchases seem to work (except if I muck it up but that doesn't count). As related in a different thread on this forum, I think Dapol are better but this is because of their coupling system (NEM sockets and easy-shunt magnetic couplings). This forum exposes problems that Dapol models have but without going back and working out the figures my impression is that most relate to steam outline.

I agree, generally, the manufacturers do produce better products than even ten years ago, however, IMHO I wish that as much thought and effort had gone into improving product running consistency as goes into the physical detailing. Plus more attention to general quality control.(especially with the challenge of shifting manufacturing to the far side of the world).

I'm with EP on the quality thing; over the last few days we've had comments on the forum that show huge variation in product quality - while my J39 is excellent, another member reports his as a poor runner, so its not just Dapol that have problems.

The problems do seem to be more acute with steam models - by their nature, as BobB says, the manufacturing process is more of a challenge, maybe its as simple as buying the right model with a proven mechanism? Is the variability less? How do you know? Do/Will the manufacturers publish the return/failure rates ???

One school of thought is that if we want high quality products we will have to pay more, and that is a part, but only part of the equation, there is a point at which poor product quality, (variability in quality is almost as bad as consistently poor quality), makes people less inclined to buy a product - no matter if that product is a bottle of wine, an expensive car or a model train.

Quote from: EtchedPixels on January 06, 2014, 01:45:52 PM
IMHO the big problem is that the old locos are designed to be serviced so can be repaired easily and a bit of tinkering isny a big job. The current models manage to be crap mechanically, poorly designed, badly quality controlled and unserviceable.

Alan

I could put up with an old Land-Rover Defender being a bit iffy 'cos I can get under the bonnet to fix it or change a diff etc but an unreliable 2014 Range Rover would be unacceptable, for me, on two main counts - cost of the thing (if wasn't reliable) and I have neither the equipment or expertise to fix it. It's the combination of a product's characteristics that are important, if it's dodgy make it easy to fix, otherwise get the quality sorted.

I think my Dapol Class 22 is great (so far) :)  my Dapol Panniers? jury is still out.

Oh, I don't drive an LR product  ;)

Steve

Dapol have excelled themselves again.  I bought a Colas Rail liveried Class 67 from the Kernow shop in Guildford today (excellent customer service btw). I got it home and noticed that Dapol have not printed the "Charlotte" nameplate on the loco or supplied any nameplates.  Nothing unusual for Dapol, but the label on the end of the box even has Charlotte written on the description!
Has anybody else got one, and got a set of plates in the box, or are Dapol laying themselves open for wrongly describing an item?

Pete @ EGLM

Quote from: Pete @ EGLM on December 28, 2019, 06:27:44 PM
Dapol have excelled themselves again.  I bought a Colas Rail liveried Class 67 from the Kernow shop in Guildford today (excellent customer service btw). I got it home and noticed that Dapol have not printed the "Charlotte" nameplate on the loco or supplied any nameplates.  Nothing unusual for Dapol, but the label on the end of the box even has Charlotte written on the description!
Has anybody else got one, and got a set of plates in the box, or are Dapol laying themselves open for wrongly describing an item?

Or simply laying themselves open for receiving a polite email/letter advising them of the missing nameplates and requesting that they provide them?

On my class 67 Charlotte plates were in the detailing bag. They are small and hard to spot.

I'll have a look and prepare to eat humble pie for dinner, instead of turkey curry......

Pete @ EGLM

Thanks hsthero, they're there!  I'll still have the turkey curry as I bought the lager to wash it down with :beers: :beers:

And apologies to Dapol of course...

Pete @ EGLM

Having just locked a diatribe against Dapol we're watching this.
Fair criticism is perfectly acceptable but at least give them a chance to help before jumping on them please.

I don't wish to upset one of our moderators, but I'd hardly consider my remarks a diatribe.  Please note, I did apologise to Dapol in my last post.

Pete @ EGLM

Quote from: Pete @ EGLM on December 28, 2019, 09:43:17 PM
I don't wish to upset one of our moderators, but I'd hardly consider my remarks a diatribe.  Please note, I did apologise to Dapol in my last post.

Pete @ EGLM

Humble pie is best when eaten cold but always has an unpleasant taste.  Very few are brave enough to do so in public.
I commend the correction and your apology. :thumbsup:

I'm looking forward to the West Country whenever it will be. Oh, and a re-run of the pacers this time with the Western Region chocolate and cream livery. This is slightly our of my era but I think will just about look ok sharing the stage with a blue TOPS 50 and an original livery HST.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/db/Newcastle_upon_Tyne._-_geograph.org.uk_-_68592.jpg

All I can say is that my Dapol locos work hard and run turn and turn about with my Farish locos (although I have more Dapol than Farish).  In my experience there is little to put between them. My best pulling steamies are Dapol but the cardan shaft does require careful handling and is a minor pain to put back together. The tender to loco electric wires take a bit of maintenance; the Farish electrical connection between loco and tender is far superior. The two brands of diesels are indistinguishable in terms of performance and reliability. In short I love my Dapol locos.

Almost pure Dapol
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/85/3123-291219070022.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=85522)


Working turn and turn about with Farish
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/85/3123-291219070102.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=85523)


Spot the Dapol locos!
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/85/3123-291219070215.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=85524)


The Western fleet
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/85/3123-291219070315.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=85525)


The Grange can easily pull this load up the bank by itself but I like the double header.
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/85/3123-291219070403.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=85526)

Great pics, too. I love this layout.  :thumbsup:

well awesome selection of hydraulics. Are D1000 And D1015 visible in those interesting paint schemes ?

Aside from Dapol locos being generally lighter than Farish and thus consistently inferior in haulage capability I have no issues with them. Indeed the 68 and the 50 are absolutely stunning locos aesthetically, and seem very good mechanically.

I'm appreciative the price of their wagons has remained more grounded than Farish too!

Quote from: njee20 on December 29, 2019, 08:17:45 AM
Aside from Dapol locos being generally lighter than Farish and thus consistently inferior in haulage capability I have no issues with them. Indeed the 68 and the 50 are absolutely stunning locos aesthetically, and seem very good mechanically.

I'm appreciative the price of their wagons has remained more grounded than Farish too!

I have found the Dapol diesels to have perfectly adequate to very good pulling power (although I don't own a class 66). My Westerns seem to be every bit as good as my Brush 4 while the Farish Warships can pull more than my Dapol Hymeks which feels about right. I am perfectly happy with the Hymek's ability to haul quite heavy freight trains up an incline. The Dapol steam locos with traction tyres I find are great and superior to Farish albeit getting spare tyres is an issue for Dapol (I have successfully used used Farish WD 2-8-0 tyres on my Dapol 28xxs). My two most disappointing locos in terms of haulage capacity are the Dapol 9F and the Farish Castle and they are both equally disappointing but as my new project doesn't have any inclines this will no longer be a problem.  My Dapol 28xxs and Grange are fantastic pullers.

This haulage problem with the Dapol 9F is well documented.

It's a lovely looking spaceship, but I have no experience with it.

I do, however own two Minitrix 9Fs, which don't have such problems  ;)

Quote from: Pete @ EGLM on December 28, 2019, 09:43:17 PM
I don't wish to upset one of our moderators, but I'd hardly consider my remarks a diatribe.  Please note, I did apologise to Dapol in my last post.

Pete @ EGLM

@Pete @ EGLM (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=923)
My post amended to reflect that, Pete.

Quote from: Bealman on December 29, 2019, 08:44:22 AM
This haulage problem with the Dapol 9F is well documented.

It's a lovely looking spaceship, but I have no experience with it.

I do, however own two Minitrix 9Fs, which don't have such problems  ;)

I had two Dapol 9Fs (one since sold) from the original production run. For sure they are quite pretty, but chassis and mechanicals are (and were even at the time of launch IMHO) cheap and nasty, certainly not warranting the "platinum" branding. Slow running is not especially good and haulage very un 9F like so the remaining loco stays in it's box and is never run.

I understand that while the basic design never changed, later production runs were an improvement, and for sure the weathered one looked (to me anyway) quite well done.

All the above said, the model has been out of production for years, and I feel a new loco-drive state of the art 9F would be very well received indeed (although some may not like the price!).

As to the Minitrix ones, well for me the positives are the very solid continental mechanism and haulage capacity but that's about it, the best that can be said of the model cosmetically is that it is a rough approximation of a 9F from a distance, but even now some people remain happy with them and that's what is important I guess.

Roy

My Dapol locos all run well, however its not that simple.  I rarely buy new and most I buy on eBay have a problem.  You will note I don't say fault as in almost all cases (except soldering) the problem was owner generated and always able to be fixed.

There are certain classes of damage I encounter.

On steam, there was a historic bad soldering and insulation of the first generation of DCC sockets, but not since the HALL.  In a lot of cases valve gear had been pressed in when the loco is picked up and on at least two instances as it was taken from the box new.  Also being pushed along the track destroys the traction tyres.  Where the motor is in the tender driving the wheels in the loco, the loco has been lifted up by the tender or the body only miss aligning the drive shaft which then fouls the tender body, falls out, or induces growl in the motor, not to mention damaging the power coupling between the tender and loco.  Rule of thumb if your drive shaft has come out chances are something has been damaged.  The Schools had a front bogie adjustment problem, but a turn of the screw fixed this.

On the non steam the older models had a set of historic faults relating to bad soldering and parts not being snapped or screwed into position properly, but not on models produced in the last ten years and there have been instances of parts not glued properly (class 68 handrails etc.), however recent models are very well built and is reflected in the fact that I'm not seeing many casualties up for sale.

One general point I concluded some time ago.  Dapol models are fragile by design and they are easily damaged.  However I prefer the scale lightness of the designs to over scale rugged details and I for one would not change this.  In other words built properly and handled gently they are very good models.

@Roy L S (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=242) -- I think that's a very fair summary.

I have two of the weathered 9F, one of which was a birthday present from my wife, so unlikely to be sold on! But I agree, they do tend to sit in their boxes, and while their haulage isn't terrible (they can handle a dozen or so wagons without any problems) it's more "train set" standard than realistic.

They are also terrifyingly fragile. The wires between the cab and tender are extremely thin and held in place with tiny bits of solder. There are also many tiny detailing parts that are held on with sub-mm spots of glue or plastic.

Yet: I don't think anyone can really consider the Minitrix model an alternative. It's an approximation of a 9F so far as bodywork goes, and the valve gear is completely off. It's not like the Peco 'Jubilee' that is accurate if imprecise, having the right proportions but lacking in details; the Minitrix 9F is inaccurate as well as imprecise, lacking not just details but also the fundamental shapes and proportions.

Cheers, NeMo

My 9F, mentioned above, would like to make this comment about its haulage capability.


Rather like the Farish castle, it is fine on level track.

Quote from: Chris Morris on December 29, 2019, 08:35:34 AM
I have found the Dapol diesels to have perfectly adequate to very good pulling power (although I don't own a class 66). My Westerns seem to be every bit as good as my Brush 4 while the Farish Warships can pull more than my Dapol Hymeks which feels about right.

Yes the Dapol 66s are underwhelming, but so's the 68 - mine slip to a stand with 8 pairs of Megafret wagons on the flat. I've not tested the 67 or 50 to its limit as I haven't wanted to haul longer trains. I'm running comparatively long trains (16-18 bogie wagons, 32ish two axle wagons), so I'm accepting of this, it is just an area that Farish locos tend to be better.

Hello Chums

I don't have enough experience of Dapol locomotives to comment on them... so I won't.

But I can comment on the firm's range of passenger rolling stock and I think it is excellent.  Dapol carriages spend many happy hours running round my little layout and are an absolute boon.  I'd be struggling to bring my 1923-1938 scene to life without them.

(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/85/6222-291219190657.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=85545)

These three Dapol 'Collett' carriages make a super passenger train.  By the way; the locomotive is a 'Dukedog' 4-4-0 from Union Mills.

Thank you Dapol, from a happy customer.

Best wishes.

John

Quote from: Roy L S on December 29, 2019, 11:31:51 AM
I had two Dapol 9Fs (one since sold) from the original production run. For sure they are quite pretty, but chassis and mechanicals are (and were even at the time of launch IMHO) cheap and nasty, certainly not warranting the "platinum" branding. Slow running is not especially good and haulage very un 9F like so the remaining loco stays in it's box and is never run.

I understand that while the basic design never changed, later production runs were an improvement, and for sure the weathered one looked (to me anyway) quite well done.

The later batches had large improvements:

- completely retooled finer profile wheels throughout,
- retooled sprung front bogie
- retooled to accommodate the 5 pole skew wound motor

Essentially, the first batch and later batch models are barely comparable.

In terms of haulage, I've seen a couple of issues that might help folks:

- some of the recent production seem to have slightly bowed chassis - this can result in the loco see-sawing on its central driver. You can deepen the slot for this wheel a touch to allow all the wheels to run on track. I suspect that given the chassis is plastic either the tooling is wearing or some moulded imperfectly in some way. This see-saw can also give wobbly running.

- One of my models had a notably lower pulling power than others - oddly I found this was fixed when I checked over the loco pickups and found that on one side two were flat against the chassis. After fixing this the pulling power increased immediately - I can only presume that the pickups on one side were pushing the wheels hard to one side, reducing their contact with the track.

Ones to look for if that helps. I've found mine are fine with 30-35 wagons, which is enough for me.

Cheers,
Alan

Quote from: Bealman on December 29, 2019, 08:44:22 AM
This haulage problem with the Dapol 9F is well documented.

It's a lovely looking spaceship, but I have no experience with it.

I do, however own two Minitrix 9Fs, which don't have such problems  ;)

I have 6, yes SIX 9Fs currently available for service.  They are quite happy with the longest and heaviest trains running on Croft Spa (34 stiff fish vans or 35 weighted four-wheel vans) or on Hawthorn Dene - the van train shortened to 32 to fit the loop or 25 21-ton hoppers filled with real coal).   For reasons of being the wrong prototype for these trains they don't normally pull them- the brown vans and fish being a Dapol A3 or A4 (occasionally a Farish A2) and the coal either a Union Mills J27 or a tender-first Dapol B1.   ALL of my 9Fs will creep along up to a stop signal with a loaded train and will gradually pull that train away without slipping. No issues slow running.

I am less of a fan of the later 9Fs as there has been some weight taken out which hasn't improved them.  Two of mine are VERY early ones- my 92050 is the one photographed in the NGS Journal when they first came out- and both of these are in regular service on a semi-fitted train of 20-odd wagons at shows, the length being the train that fits the road in the fiddle yard also occupied by the 8-car class 101/111 train rather than a reflection of their haulage capacities.

Looking at the Farish alternatives- not one of my five WDs will look at the heavy trains - indeed no two of the five will pull the hoppers double-headed.  The weakest WD struggles with eight empty bogie sulphate wagons (which have all been re-wheeled and are all free running) and the strongest just about manages 12 of the hoppers.  My Farish B1 went onto eBay as it couldn't pull its diagrammed trains.  Any of my (presently 9) B1s will pull the hoppers.

In general I find (from the experience of a hard-worked exhibition fleet of nearly 140 locos)  there is little to choose between Farish and Dapol diesels- and each successive release from BOTH has raised the standards.  Farish tender-drives are variable- my best of these are the J39s but even here two out of 5 are laid up with split gears.  The loco-powered steamers are much better, but why is the 2MT stronger by a country mile than the WD? 

On Pacifics, I have plenty of all four major varieties of LNER.  The best I have are the Dapol A3 and the Farish A2, though the latter has had to have extra tyred wheelsets sourced- it is a weakling straight out of the box, not helped by one of mine having NO traction tyres as supplied. The Dapol A4 is also fine but its slightly different front bogie makes it a little more tricky to set up than the A3 and it loses its settings much more easily.  Farish's A1 is less good than the A2- it seems to be closer to the "locking up" weight than the A2 so needs to be scrupulously kept clean of dust around the valve gear.  The A4 and A3 are much stronger than an A1 or A2 with only one traction tyre but there is little difference when the Farish has two sets of tyres.

It is worth remembering that BOTH manufacturers are continually upping their game and that the new releases of the last year or two show up the previous generations of BOTH manufacturers.  The SECR C is a little gem, but so is the Class 60 and the Class 50.  They are the product of their upgrade.

Also worth thinking is it is now about TWICE as many years since Dapol introduced their 9F as the number of years between Dapol STARTING in N and releasing the 9F.

Les

The weakness of the Farish WD is a milling problem with their tyred wheels affecting a good percentage of locos that they took a long time to admit to - the result being WDs with correctly milled wheels would pull long trains while the worst would hardly pull themselves.  Traction tyres are no good whatsoever when the y don't touch the track.....

I have a number of Dapol 66's, 67's & 68's, and as others have said the pulling power is not a match for the Farish examples, but in my opinion I prefer the look of the Dapol units, and for me I run them on short trains rather than the 20 HTA's etc and never on the Revolution wagons.

To date other than one HST which has lost its headlights and I haven't got round to replacing the leds I have had a very good run from them.

Quote from: Graham on December 29, 2019, 11:50:30 PM
To date other than one HST which has lost its headlights and I haven't got round to replacing the leds I have had a very good run from them.

Most likely to be the dual diode surface mount package on the PCB - especially if it's the red lights out (though I've seen various strangenesses with lights all coming back to this same problem). This can be changed (the diode, not the PCB) for pennies. Worth checking first before replacing anything more expensive or challenging.

Cheers,
Alan

thanks @Dr Al (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=263), it is only the headlights, the tail light is still working, so I was just looking to replace the headlight leds to see if that worked.

Worth doing a bit of switching around (e.g. swap body to another chassis or a dummy) to see if the LEDs actually do work and it's the PCB contents that are the problem.

The LEDs can be blown, but most often its the PCB components or as a result of the PCB components.

Cheers,
Alan

thanks will see how I go, I have some spares.

I've bought 3 HSTs with failed lights, and each time it's been the actual LED. Never had one fail on any of mine, so not sure what people are doing to make them fail.

The lights on all but one of my 86's have failed. But that's down to the use of flimsy wiring to a connector on the main PCB. Removing the loco body to add a decoder broke the first one, and even being very careful on subsequent loco's it's still a problem.

The wires typically come loose at the lighting PCB, and once you get all the black paint? off, that's because instead of going to the expense of a single pin header for each wire there is just a solder pad, and not a very big one at that.

Dapol have addressed this on their redesigned Next18 CL66's though, using wipers to transfer the lighting signals from the main PCB to the loco body.

Regards,

John P

Quote from: Les1952 on December 29, 2019, 11:06:39 PM

Quote from: Bealman on December 29, 2019, 08:44:22 AM
This haulage problem with the Dapol 9F is well documented.

It's a lovely looking spaceship, but I have no experience with it.

I do, however own two Minitrix 9Fs, which don't have such problems  ;)

I have 6, yes SIX 9Fs currently available for service.  They are quite happy with the longest and heaviest trains running on Croft Spa (34 stiff fish vans or 35 weighted four-wheel vans) or on Hawthorn Dene - the van train shortened to 32 to fit the loop or 25 21-ton hoppers filled with real coal).   For reasons of being the wrong prototype for these trains they don't normally pull them- the brown vans and fish being a Dapol A3 or A4 (occasionally a Farish A2) and the coal either a Union Mills J27 or a tender-first Dapol B1.   ALL of my 9Fs will creep along up to a stop signal with a loaded train and will gradually pull that train away without slipping. No issues slow running.

I am less of a fan of the later 9Fs as there has been some weight taken out which hasn't improved them.  Two of mine are VERY early ones- my 92050 is the one photographed in the NGS Journal when they first came out- and both of these are in regular service on a semi-fitted train of 20-odd wagons at shows, the length being the train that fits the road in the fiddle yard also occupied by the 8-car class 101/111 train rather than a reflection of their haulage capacities.

Looking at the Farish alternatives- not one of my five WDs will look at the heavy trains - indeed no two of the five will pull the hoppers double-headed.  The weakest WD struggles with eight empty bogie sulphate wagons (which have all been re-wheeled and are all free running) and the strongest just about manages 12 of the hoppers.  My Farish B1 went onto eBay as it couldn't pull its diagrammed trains.  Any of my (presently 9) B1s will pull the hoppers.

In general I find (from the experience of a hard-worked exhibition fleet of nearly 140 locos)  there is little to choose between Farish and Dapol diesels- and each successive release from BOTH has raised the standards.  Farish tender-drives are variable- my best of these are the J39s but even here two out of 5 are laid up with split gears.  The loco-powered steamers are much better, but why is the 2MT stronger by a country mile than the WD? 

On Pacifics, I have plenty of all four major varieties of LNER.  The best I have are the Dapol A3 and the Farish A2, though the latter has had to have extra tyred wheelsets sourced- it is a weakling straight out of the box, not helped by one of mine having NO traction tyres as supplied. The Dapol A4 is also fine but its slightly different front bogie makes it a little more tricky to set up than the A3 and it loses its settings much more easily.  Farish's A1 is less good than the A2- it seems to be closer to the "locking up" weight than the A2 so needs to be scrupulously kept clean of dust around the valve gear.  The A4 and A3 are much stronger than an A1 or A2 with only one traction tyre but there is little difference when the Farish has two sets of tyres.

It is worth remembering that BOTH manufacturers are continually upping their game and that the new releases of the last year or two show up the previous generations of BOTH manufacturers.  The SECR C is a little gem, but so is the Class 60 and the Class 50.  They are the product of their upgrade.

Also worth thinking is it is now about TWICE as many years since Dapol introduced their 9F as the number of years between Dapol STARTING in N and releasing the 9F.

Les

The weakness of the Farish WD is a milling problem with their tyred wheels affecting a good percentage of locos that they took a long time to admit to - the result being WDs with correctly milled wheels would pull long trains while the worst would hardly pull themselves.  Traction tyres are no good whatsoever when the y don't touch the track.....

I think your assessment is in the main very fair and balanced Les.

That said, you have seen one of my WDs walk off with just shy of 40 16 Tonners on Rugby Central, and my sound fitted one is equally capable.

On the subject of B1s and j39 tender drives (Farish) I have never had a split gear, in fact I don't think I have had split gears on any of my Farish tender-driven, just a couple of diesels, less of an issue amongst more recent ones it seems.

My experience of the Dapol v Farish B1 is quite different though. My Farish are capable of pulling a very decent train and have proved very dependable. The two Dapol ones I have owned were not only a much poorer rendition of a B1 (Poorly proportioned and more akin to a "generic" LNER 4-6-0 in some ways) but the first got so hot it melted the tender sides and the second shed a loco-tender wire, the screw housing in the tender rotated rendering the screw impossible to remove. I sold it cheap (with full disclosure of the problem of course).

The Farish Ivatt is a little stunner, even now if I was told I could keep just one loco, I think it would be my sound fitted 46440..

Best Wishes

Roy

The more split gears I have replace the more I am convinced that the type of oil used plays a big part. 

I now use Teflon lubricant with no ill effects to the plastic, but I strip gear trains and towers and clean the old oil off with IPA first.

WD-40 and 3 in 1 oil are definite culprits as they contain a cleaning agent, but lite pure gun oil seems to be fine.  I have also used Castrol grease to great effect.

Quote from: njee20 on December 30, 2019, 08:43:12 AM
Never had one fail on any of mine, so not sure what people are doing to make them fail.

Likewise, and I am equally intrigued to find the actual cause.

My suspicion is that it's momentary shorts, wheels touching backs of poorly adjusted point blades etc, shorts caused by derailments, etc - the BAT54C diode package isn't rated that highly (700mA IIRC?) so a short or spike may well degrade and ultimately cook it. LEDs pretty much can only cook if overcurrent, which means over-voltage given they do have protection resistors. Not sure how that happens on DC unless it's from old controllers?

At some point I do need to sit down and work through the circuit properly, to see if the weak components could be replaced with something more robust, or reworked to be completely removed.

Cheers,
Alan

Quote from: Dr Al on December 30, 2019, 05:15:15 PM

Quote from: njee20 on December 30, 2019, 08:43:12 AM
Never had one fail on any of mine, so not sure what people are doing to make them fail.

Likewise, and I am equally intrigued to find the actual cause.

My suspicion is that it's momentary shorts, wheels touching backs of poorly adjusted point blades etc, shorts caused by derailments, etc - the BAT54C diode package isn't rated that highly (700mA IIRC?) so a short or spike may well degrade and ultimately cook it. LEDs pretty much can only cook if overcurrent, which means over-voltage given they do have protection resistors. Not sure how that happens on DC unless it's from old controllers?

At some point I do need to sit down and work through the circuit properly, to see if the weak components could be replaced with something more robust, or reworked to be completely removed.

Cheers,
Alan

A lot of the cheap diodes LED and signal sourced in China are poor clones and way off the advertised specs.  You can bet the factory is buying cheap and it does not take much of a voltage spike to fry the Anode

Quote from: Snowwolflair on December 30, 2019, 05:33:53 PM
A lot of the cheap diodes LED and signal sourced in China are poor clones and way off the advertised specs.  You can bet the factory is buying cheap and it does not take much of a voltage spike to fry the Anode

I can quite believe that. Seeing the capacitor arrays self destruct in clouds of smoke sitting on pure DC at half speed, showed the quality (or lack thereof) of some of the components they're using. Fortunately, those can just be removed and binned without replacement, without loss.

Cheers,
Alan

I'm not getting involved in this, other than to say I had a couple of class 66s which were not too good, and were sold on, but later cl. 26 / 27 seemed to work fine on Inverknockie  v 3 and 4.

so my basic thought would be that Dapol is listening, and improving.

my view from my experiences.

Quote from: Dr Al on December 30, 2019, 05:36:47 PM

Quote from: Snowwolflair on December 30, 2019, 05:33:53 PM
A lot of the cheap diodes LED and signal sourced in China are poor clones and way off the advertised specs.  You can bet the factory is buying cheap and it does not take much of a voltage spike to fry the Anode

I can quite believe that. Seeing the capacitor arrays self destruct in clouds of smoke sitting on pure DC at half speed, showed the quality (or lack thereof) of some of the components they're using. Fortunately, those can just be removed and binned without replacement, without loss.

Cheers,
Alan

Fortunately as I convert my locos to DCC sound I strip out all electronics except the front and back LED diode arrays and hard wire in the decoder, and I definitely remove the DCC socket.  The DCC chip will protect the LEDS especially as I slightly up-rate the protection resisters and I use lots of heat shrink.

Quote from: Dr Al on December 30, 2019, 05:15:15 PM

Quote from: njee20 on December 30, 2019, 08:43:12 AM
Never had one fail on any of mine, so not sure what people are doing to make them fail.

Likewise, and I am equally intrigued to find the actual cause.

My suspicion is that it's momentary shorts, wheels touching backs of poorly adjusted point blades etc, shorts caused by derailments, etc - the BAT54C diode package isn't rated that highly (700mA IIRC?) so a short or spike may well degrade and ultimately cook it. LEDs pretty much can only cook if overcurrent, which means over-voltage given they do have protection resistors. Not sure how that happens on DC unless it's from old controllers?

At some point I do need to sit down and work through the circuit properly, to see if the weak components could be replaced with something more robust, or reworked to be completely removed.

Cheers,
Alan

This is fascinating stuff; thank you very much. 

Best wishes.

John

I have the following Dapol steamers :

M7
B17
A3
A4
Schools

In terms of robustness, the M7 and the B17 have hit the deck and survived with only superficial damage.

I had to replace one of the wires connecting the loco to the tender on the A4 - a test of patience.

No issues with haulage capacity or derailing, apart from the well-documented issue of the bogie on the Schools class.

I prefer the shinier finish on Farish locos and coaches but, as we say in France "chacun son gout".

Having said that, my A4 with valences in blue livery with red wheels is my favourite loco in terms of looks.

Best regards,


Joe