Hope Dave's new venture includes N gauge!
http://djmodelsltd.co.uk (http://djmodelsltd.co.uk)
Cheers
Mark
Considering Dave always thought the NGF had a 'downer' on Dapol (untrue, of course), he seems to have listened to the basic criticisms of Dapol and is determined to correct them i.e. shipments, testing etc
I wish him a huge success :thumbsup:
I think it is totally untrue that we are biased against Dapol on here.
But I really do wish him all the luck in the world with this new venture.
Is it me or have Dapol lost their weathering people (Mercig)?? or have I read the statement wrong??
Cheers
Mark
He certainly seems to be aiming high with his proposed aims. It will be interesting to watch Dave develop his business model because if he get's it right, his previous employer may have problems and we, the customer, will benefit.
Many will no doubt be hyper critical, but not many will put their own money where their mouth is as he has done.
Time will tell, I genuinely wish him every success too. :thumbsup:
We can only wait and see.
A little more competition can only be good for us consumers.
I have nothing against Dapol's products at all (in fact some of my very best locos eg new panniers and Class 22 are products of theirs). It's just that their timescales leave "a little to be desired".
Looking forward to reading about Dave's forthcoming announcements. Best of luck to him.
The intention to personally check each model before they go out is attractive and likely to result in me ordering. And realistic delivery timescales - a simple concept but so often lacking.
I wish him the very best of luck.
Hmmmmm........
"DJM" ................sounds a bit like......."CJM"......
Cheers
Jon :)
One of the many things I have learned in life is to never prejudge anyone, so I shall sit on the fence and watch that space!
But good luck to him anyway.
Whilst wishing Dave Jones all the best for his ambitious new venture and welcoming more competition in the RTR market, I am a bit concerned about what the prices may be like.
Ray
I think the NGF forum is sometimes viewed by many manufacturers as some place where by people openly criticise their models.
Totally untrue!!!
The N Gauge Forum should be wholly praised as being the only independent British N Gauge forum on the WWW.
Manufacturers should look to the N Gauge Forum for honest reviews about their products. Afterall, reviews posted on other forums by normal modellers have to compete with model rail press owned moderators whom cannot afford to allow honest, un-biased views posted on their sites through fear of losing sponsorship which keeps their sites afloat.
The NGF being independent doesn't suffer that short coming.
I agree that negative reviews have occurred about models on this site but with just cause (due to the models being sh*t).
At the same time I have personally spent £100+ on a model that has been reviewed here first purely on the credit of the knowledge base of this forum (regardless of manufacturer) and I have not been disappointed.
If makers of RtR models are frightened of advertising on the NGF, then it is their loss in my opinion.
If I were about to go start an N Gauge RtR company then the NGF would be my first port of call to find out how my potential Market really feels.
Best of luck to Dave.
Quote from: OwL on September 06, 2013, 11:21:58 PM
I think the NGF forum is sometimes viewed by many manufacturers as some place where by people openly criticise their models.
Totally untrue!!!
The N Gauge Forum should be wholly praised as being the only independent British N Gauge forum on the WWW.
Manufacturers should look to the N Gauge Forum for honest reviews about their products. Afterall, reviews posted on other forums by normal modellers have to compete with model rail press owned moderators whom cannot afford to allow honest, un-biased views posted on their sites through fear of losing sponsorship which keeps their sites afloat.
The NGF being independent doesn't suffer that short coming.
I agree that negative reviews have occurred about models on this site but with just cause (due to the models being sh*t).
At the same time I have personally spent £100+ on a model that has been reviewed here first purely on the credit of the knowledge base of this forum (regardless of manufacturer) and I have not been disappointed.
If makers of RtR models are frightened of advertising on the NGF, then it is their loss in my opinion.
If I were about to go start an N Gauge RtR company then the NGF would be my first port of call to find out how my potential Market really feels.
Best of luck to Dave.
Agreed I brought 2 locos which were praised on here. I have to say I go more by what is posted here then the mags or other forums.
Anyway I hope Dave makes a go of his new venture.
Wow, sounds like he will have a lot on his plate, good on him. Fingers crossed we will see models that are not around now like maybe some early diesels and it will be interesting to see how he goes price wise to be able to compete with the other two big players.
Dave can you make me some mk3 blue grey coaches to complete Zac's hst? :D
Bart
Quote from: 1936ace on September 07, 2013, 04:41:04 AM
Wow, sounds like he will have a lot on his plate, good on him. Fingers crossed we will see models that are not around now like . . .
Bart
. . . a Pendolino :D
If we are starting to do predictions, I predict...in N of course...
GWR King (King Dave?)
SR Lord Nelson (Lord Dave?) or a Scotch Arthur (Sir Dave?)
Class 41 (Active, perhaps..., and I know these are one of Dave's favourites)
Class 17 (who would not buy a pair of these beautiful diesels?)
The LMS twins (unlike DP1, why not double your sales with one model as you just have to have two :D)
LNER P2 2-8-2 ('male chicken' (changed by forum) o the North)
and so it goes on...
The sharp ones out there might look at the namers and grin a little, perhaps.
Best
Bob
Well said OWL.
Some of the reviews in the main press are very woolie to say the least and seem to focus more on the life of the prototype than the quality of the model.
Quote from: Trev on September 07, 2013, 07:59:04 AM
Well said OWL.
Some of the reviews in the main press are very woolie to say the least and seem to focus more on the life of the prototype than the quality of the model.
When I was working freelance, I used to write quite a few reviews for various Mac magazines. I still review books and DVDs for a science fiction website. While it's certainly fun being sent new stuff for free, reviewing isn't as easy as you might think.
For a start, reviewing demands expertise. So for example one time I was reviewing a software development platform that was similar to the old Apple Hypercard system but substantially different and much more complicated. It was a new product, so while I had ideas about what I wanted to achieve, I still had to spend many hours becoming reasonably competent with the product. Of course unlike the average user I could call or e-mail the developers and get help instantly (after all, they wanted a favourable review) but there's still a learning curve. But there's always a risk that as a reviewer you write about a failing in the product that was actually more about you misunderstanding it.
I've been stung by this problem myself, having someone who reviewed one of my books go on and on about something in a review he said I'd done wrong, when actually he'd misread a section. He wrote me afterwards to apologise, but the damage was done, the review was already in print.
There's also an inbuilt desire not to write negative reviews. Sometimes this is selfish. I've been sent stuff to review by the developers who produce nice, expensive programs we all want to own. But if I write a bad review, can I be sure they'll trust me with another product? Actually, yes, they often will, provided your criticisms are valid, and in one or two cases I've unearthed bugs they've fixed in the next update, so by communicating with the developer, I've actually helped. But the anxiety is still there. Plus, at the end of the day it's the editor that chooses reviewers not the developer (or their PR company) so provided your writing is good and stimulating, you'll still get fun stuff to review.
Editors often demand a specific format of review, with a balance of pros and cons for a "box out" panels alongside the text and photos. These might highlight problems, yes, but they can also hide them by making a review look balanced and neutral. For example a reviewer might balance a good thing ("nice use of animations between screens") that doesn't matter much with something that's actually quite serious ("occasional crashes at start-up").
Finally, good reviews take time. For something like a 4-page in-depth review I might get paid £400, which sounds pretty good if you factor in me keeping the software as well (which in the case of high-end stuff, may be worth at least as much money). But a decent review will take a couple of days to write, and you'd probably need to spend several days playing with a program if it's a completely new product or something that's been substantially updated from its last version. So that £400 ends up being spread across, say, 4-5 days, which comes out at £100 or less per day. Before tax, of course! Bottom line, if you're a freelance writer who does this for a living, you're very likely to spend only a limited amount of time per product otherwise you aren't making enough income. Bear in mind that freelancers rarely get enough writing for every single working day of the year, so while £100 a day might sound okay, you might not make any money at all the next day if you don't have another writing gig. On top of this, your editor will have set a deadline, often 2-3 weeks. Sometimes new software has longer deadlines because you have a pre-release version, but that of course means bugs are more likely a documentation may be patchy. Naturally, looking online won't help at all when you're reviewing pre-release software!
Bottom line is that reviewing is less easy than you think. If you buy one or two examples of a new model train, then yes, reporting back your conclusions is helpful. On aggregate, a dozen such submissions to this forum will be even better, but such online reviews tend to be statistically biassed. The people who join forums are more serious (or discerning, if you prefer) modellers who may be pickier about how a model train looks and runs. People tend to submit negative reviews more often than positive ones. In social groups like forums there's a tendency for people to agree with dominant personalities (which may simply be those modellers we respect, not necessarily bullies or blowhards).
You could well argue that this is still better than a brief, shallow review in a train magazine based on 20 minutes of running a model round an oval layout in the editor's office. It probably is quicker and easier for a reviewer to write 400 neutral words on the prototype than 400 words critiquing (if not necessarily criticising) the model in question. You may well think that running an 0-6-0 tank engine around a plain oval layout without points or ballasting is much less relevant compared to its performance on an end-to-end shunting layout with lots of points and scenics. I'd agree, and would certainly prefer to know how a model train performed after two months of operation rather than 20 minutes, but I doubt train magazines get sent samples anything like two months before the train goes on sale.
Writing all of this, I'm not sure I'm defending or criticising the magazine reviewers, but I do hope I'm sympathetic to their position and can help to shine a bit of a light on the problems reviewers face.
Cheers, NeMo
I'm most interested to see what his price point will be - the talk is about quality but is that going to go with a £200 price tag (which if it allows for extra quality, accuracy and so on may not be a bad thing).
Alan
I see this as a good chance for Dave to show that he's a better industrial designer than whoever was doing the technical side at Dapol.
While he was there the models looked really good, but the industrial design was terrible and caused most of the issues their detractors have experienced. The linkage between engine and tender on the steamers being one particularly daft bit of design that they only needed to look to Peco's 20 year old Jubilee for a particularly good tender power connection for instance.
If he's personally doing QC and testing each model, that's a good sign. It means he should be able to identify when there's been a design flaw that's causing assembly issues. The odd wonky one due to shipping is normal, but when you get more than a couple of percent of them failing because they're tricky to assemble it means you need to improve the design (or training of the assemblers).
It'll also be interesting to see if Dave's models are designed for display like the Dapol ones, or use on model railways/train sets like the Farish, Union Mills, Fleischmann, Arnold, Minitrix etc. ones.
Keeping my fingers crossed that we're in for some really good, useable, model railway engines :)
Based on my experience so far, with steam in particular, I'd happily pay double the current prices if quartering issues, self destructing mechanism's and cosmetic issues became a thing of the past.
3 interesting choices!!
Might be tempted by a baby Deltic :hmmm:
I'm going to support this and pre-order a J94 when possible, I'm all for competition and especially if it ultimately raises the bar all round.
Quote from: Only Me on September 07, 2013, 12:00:56 PM
Unless I'm miSsing somethIng the website lists the prices and at 114 for a baby Deltic I am going to pre order two if I can get different running numbers and in a nice green colour!
Dave if you read this please pm me with details on pre ordering.
Thanks Paul
Plenty to choose from :D
N23-001 D5903 BR 2 tone green with small yellow warning panel – £114.50
N23-002 D5909 BR Blue with full yellow front end - £114.50
N23-003 D5900 BR 2 tone green with small yellow warning panel - £114.50
N23-004 D5907 BR 2 tone green with small yellow warning panel - £114.50
N23-005 D5901 BR 2 tone green with small yellow warning panel weathered (from Mercig Studios weathered master) - £124.50
Some good choices of locos there. Looks like he's not too fussed about OO (which is covered by so many other manufacturers anyway) and a baby deltic and J94 in O would be rather good for the gauge.
From the DJM Timeline Page it looks as if we can order locos with effect from week commencing 16 September.
That's one Baby Deltic and a J94 both weathered please (that's my Xmas list sorted).
Ray
Great to see another new manufacturer on the scene...and one which looks to have learned some lessons from Dapol. The J94 is a useful model and I'm sure will do well...but the class 17 and 23 are more fringe models; that said I have always liked the Claytons and may give one a go just because they looked great! In fairness...almost everything has now been taken by Dapol and Farish.
In his days prior to Dapol, Dave produced a tamper in both r-t-r and kit form...one of those in all three scales may have been perfect introduction.
Best of luck for the future!
well there goes more money i dont have
maybe if im good enough, go to bed early, and think good things, the train fairy might leave a 17 and the baby deltic under pillow
bart
Yep, this is gonna cost money.... :)
It does not say when all this is going to hit us though.... I better start feeding the piggiebank :hmmm:
We live in exiting times!
Gerard :wave:
Good to see another manufacturer entering the market. None of these will be impacting on my wallet as they weren't seen between Wigston & Market Harborough. Class 28, powered & dummy, next please.
David
It always surprises me that more models aren't available as dummies, either for double heading or posing in MPDs etc. It would be an affordable way to populate a model or diorama, and a cheaper way to try your first weathering.
Maybe we will see this from Dave as Dapol's Hymek is one of the few I am aware of that is available as a dummy.
David
Quote from: Sea Mills on September 07, 2013, 02:50:53 PM
It always surprises me that more models aren't available as dummies, either for double heading or posing in MPDs etc. It would be an affordable way to populate a model or diorama, and a cheaper way to try your first weathering.
Maybe we will see this from Dave as Dapol's Hymek is one of the few I am aware of that is available as a dummy.
David
Dapol hav done quit a few dummy's with the 66, 67, 73, hymeks, 153, 156, 121. I think that's it. Farish don't do any which is a shame.
Might get a 17 in N and possibly a J94 in O.
Alistair
Might be interested in a J94 which I can use as an Industrial loco.
DCC ready LNER J94 ... £80, choice of 2 running numbers ??? Bugger, there goes more money !!!
Shame it's the same numbers in OO ... oh well, I guess I can renumber those ones ::)
I would feel a little more comfortable if Dave had a little more legal stuff on his company site..............
The Electronic Commerce Regulations 2002 specify the rules that apply to traders who use electronic means, such as the internet, to promote and sell their goods and services. A trader is required to:
give their name and a geographical address
provide contact details including an email address for quick and accessible contact
provide details of any trade body, authorisation scheme or regulatory professional body to which they belong
give their VAT registration number
clearly set out the steps which the consumer must follow to conclude the purchase (the process must allow for the consumer to stop the order if a mistake has been made)
set out their terms and conditions clearly
It is early days yet, but I do remember having great difficulty contacting Dave in a previous enterprise. Let's hope all the above requirements will be met in due course - and certainly before he starts trading.
For example, the legal name of the business appears to be DJModels Limited - not Dave Jones in person, but this is not mentioned properly anywhere on the site, as far as I can see from a quick glance. DJModels Ltd is mentioned under his signature, but even that is not accurate - it should be "LIMITED", not "LTD".
Quote from: Bartercode on September 07, 2013, 05:23:45 PM
It is early days yet, but I do remember having great difficulty contacting Dave in a previous enterprise. Let's hope all the above requirements will be met in due course - and certainly before he starts trading.
Same here. As many know from the N'thusiast thread, he still owes me £300 and others. I certainly wouldn't trust him again in regards to giving my money.
[quote author=Zwilnik While he was there the models looked really good, but the industrial design was terrible and caused most of the issues their detractors have experienced. The linkage between engine and tender on the steamers being one particularly daft bit of design that they only needed to look to Peco's 20 year old Jubilee for a particularly good tender power connection for instance.
[/quote]
You mean Peco's 40 plus year old Jubilee!
Mind you to be fair that power connection only had to transfer power from one not both "sides" of the loco.
Cheers
Roy
QuoteClass 17 (who would not buy a pair of these beautiful diesels?)
20 points for you sir!
I am also feeling a little "Septic peg" (and no Owl, that's not a hygiene issue, I showed and deo today :D) as I was only reading the lastest Model Rail the other day, saw a picture of a 00 Class 17 and thought....
... "I wonder if that will ever be offered RTR in N"?
Ok, not that impressive :doh:
Skyline2uk
Quote from: Skyline2uk on September 07, 2013, 07:46:39 PM
Ok, not that impressive :doh:
Blimey that's a coincidence - that was my impression of the 17 :laughabovepost: You can tell we model different eras :D
:laughabovepost:
Quote- that was my impression of the 17 :laughabovepost: You can tell we model different eras :D
It would appear I have been miss-quoted...how rude :P
Besides little old me would not know what a class 17 was supposed to look like.....
Skyline2uk
Quote from: Bartercode on September 07, 2013, 05:23:45 PM
I would feel a little more comfortable if Dave had a little more legal stuff on his company site..............
The Electronic Commerce Regulations 2002 specify the rules that apply to traders who use electronic means, such as the internet, to promote and sell their goods and services. A trader is required to:
give their name and a geographical address
provide contact details including an email address for quick and accessible contact
provide details of any trade body, authorisation scheme or regulatory professional body to which they belong
give their VAT registration number
clearly set out the steps which the consumer must follow to conclude the purchase (the process must allow for the consumer to stop the order if a mistake has been made)
set out their terms and conditions clearly
It is early days yet, but I do remember having great difficulty contacting Dave in a previous enterprise. Let's hope all the above requirements will be met in due course - and certainly before he starts trading.
For example, the legal name of the business appears to be DJModels Limited - not Dave Jones in person, but this is not mentioned properly anywhere on the site, as far as I can see from a quick glance. DJModels Ltd is mentioned under his signature, but even that is not accurate - it should be "LIMITED", not "LTD".
A very good point and many thanks for sharing this information as I was not aware of this before now.
I was also not aware of Dave Jones's previous business ventures prior to Dapol.
I wish him well but I also hope he plays by the rules and does not up-set anybody (accept maybe his previous employers ::) :smiley-laughing:)
Details on DJ models website, N gauge classes 17, 23, & J94.
Quote from: Tank on September 07, 2013, 05:51:13 PM
Quote from: Bartercode on September 07, 2013, 05:23:45 PM
It is early days yet, but I do remember having great difficulty contacting Dave in a previous enterprise. Let's hope all the above requirements will be met in due course - and certainly before he starts trading.
Same here. As many know from the N'thusiast thread, he still owes me £300 and others. I certainly wouldn't trust him again in regards to giving my money.
I suspect part of the problem was that he had to assemble and paint things in the past before delivering the goods, like the Nthusiast bubblecar in RTR form. Now, I get the impression that he seems to be relying on others to do most of the physical work - rather like the Class 73 set in Railtrack livery, which Dapol did for him and (as far as I know) were all delivered.
The danger - all too obvious in my opinion from the euphoria evident here and in at least one other place - is that people will blindly flood him with orders and deposits on the basis of his reputation with Dapol, without even considering the possible risks. Even with the very best of intentions, there is always the danger, in my opinion, that things might not go as well as hoped.
Personally, I will be very cautious, but if I need something he offers under the new enterprise, I will at least consider buying it.
Quote from: scruff on September 06, 2013, 06:15:04 PM
I think it is totally untrue that we are biased against Dapol on here.
Unforunately there are a vocal minority of N gauge modellers who
ARE biassed against Dapol (such as the expert elsewhere who recently proclaimed the Farish 9F to be "far superior to the Dapol effort" ::)), but there is also a similar number who are pro-Dapol / Anti Farish.
Overall I'd say that comment on this forum is as balanced as anywhere, with the majority willing to give credit where earned, and criticism where deserved to both major manufacturers...
I think the J94 will do well but would it be worth £80 more than a s/h farish one, it would need to be in the £60 -£80 to have a decent chance of selling. Im not convinced by the Clayton or the Baby Deltic. They've been poor sellers in OO so only time will tell. As he hasnt offered anything i want my money will stay in the wallet but even if there was i think id still wait and see what appears first!
The best bit was when someone showed one of the bachmann guys a leaflet and the reply was - "ah so hes using our motors now then!" make of that what you will!
Richard
Quote from: Skyline2uk on September 07, 2013, 08:00:38 PM
It would appear I have been miss-quoted...
Mis-quoted ? No ... not at all - just very selective :D
Quote
Besides little old me would not know what a class 17 was supposed to look like.....
Or me ... but the CAD image is an ugly spud to my eyes ... :confused1:
I'll wait & see what these LNER locos are like before I part with my money ... are they good looking & accurate, do they run right, do I have to mess about oiling them straight outa the box, etc ...
Mike
Unfortunately both the class 17 and 23 will not be of interest to me. However, a new manufacturer producing models is very welcome. I'm modelling BR in the late 70's to mid 80's and so far have only GF loco's and rolling stock. I have nothing against Dapol and look forward to purchasing their class 33's and 50's when released. I will also be purchasing some freight wagons of theirs in the future and am looking for a number of their dogfish wagons in black or rust colour.
As of right now I'm playing catch up and trying to buy as much of the discontinued GF models that I can while they are still floating around. Need another 4 x 37238 and 10 (or more) x 47035 (all going to be secondhand now). I just found out they have discontinued 2 of their freightliner wagons that I need 5 each of too.
Hopefully Dapol won't suffer and DJ Models will be a success, a win-win for us modellers.
Jamie
The only occasion I spoke to DJ was at a Bristol Thornbury show. It would have been just after he joined Dapol, and on this occasion I found him a tad surly. Maybe he had just had an awkward customer and I got the fallout! I know that Dave Jones does have a lot of fans out there. As time has gone on it has shown he was a leading light in Dapol. Many,if not all models seem to be attributed to him so he is obviously a talented chap. He has all of the connections and inside knowledge. Couple this with the Qof S he puts high on the agenda of his DJM venture and on paper he looks set to do very well indeed. I do wish him every success in his venture, and will make purchases as and when he releases something that fits in with my layout.
Dapol. Good to see they are releasing a Grange, something I will have a couple of. As has already been said this is a natural progression from the Hall. I hope they prosper by finding a suitable replacement who can take them forward. Having three major manufacturers in N can only be good for us, so I hope the smaller two survive in their own right.
Steve
Falmouth
As with the majority here I wish DJ well in his new venture, but it is a little concerning what Tank has mentioned. As with all business's integrity is paramount and people do not forget the past, especially when it concerns the loss of hard earned money.
Quote from: Mr Sprue on September 08, 2013, 08:16:15 AM
As with the majority here I wish DJ well in his new venture, but it is a little concerning what Tank has mentioned. As with all business's integrity is paramount and people do not forget the past, especially when it concerns the loss of hard earned money.
Happy to answer any questions via PM if anyone has concerns. Even if DJ would like to contact me to sort this out.
Tanks revelation certainly is a concern.
I also wonder how realistic it his for Dave to personally check every engine. This may be possible whilst he's producing less desirable/niche models such as the ones he's suggesting for the initial run. But if the venture becomes a success and he starts producing machines that require a larger production run, how can he achieve his own personal quality control whilst still maintaining a decent delivery schedule?
It will be interesting to watch developments.
Quote from: Tank on September 07, 2013, 05:51:13 PM
Quote from: Bartercode on September 07, 2013, 05:23:45 PM
It is early days yet, but I do remember having great difficulty contacting Dave in a previous enterprise. Let's hope all the above requirements will be met in due course - and certainly before he starts trading.
Same here. As many know from the N'thusiast thread, he still owes me £300 and others. I certainly wouldn't trust him again in regards to giving my money.
Did anyone see RMweb?
There is a member called General-Torvek who has repeated what has been said here about Jones ripping off people in his past venture and his post has mysteriously vanished!
What kind of censorship is that?
All the guy said was 'Although he wishes Dave well people should beware before giving him money up front due to issues with N'thusiast'
I cannot believe they deleted it so quick when all he was trying to do is point out issues he may have experienced with
DJ.!!!
That has really shocked me and I'm glad this forum is a place where people can express themselves about issues honestly without fear of censorship like has occurred elsewhere.
That's the second post that I know of that has been deleted on there.
Quote from: Tank on September 10, 2013, 11:09:43 AM
That's the second post that I know of that has been deleted on there.
It seems the way posts were deleted (the posts did not breech that Forums rules in my view) shows too harsh a censor.
I think that is wrong, and people have a right to know about past goings on. Not to stitch the guy up, just so that people can be cautious and make better informed choices.......
Let's not forget that £300 is a lot of money to loose. He should have the decency to account for that.
The message coming through from reading the entries on RMweb and the blurb on the DJModels website is that no one will be expected to pay money up front and that he is hoping to sell through third parties. If so, then consumers purchasing the products will be less at risk than through his last venture. Individual bits of information do seem slightly contradictory though - so maybe we just have to wait and see how things develop.
I did wonder if Farish, Hornby or Dapol might bring out competing models, rather like the Dapol/Farish battles of old - but the current supply situation, with apparently long delays, probably makes that unlikely. DJ does boast that the supply problems of old have been sorted and he has capacity to accept commissions from third parties. I wonder how he has uniquely worked out how to achieve this?
He has probably got his pick of Chinese factories now after building up strong relations with them in his old job meaning he probably feels unlikely to encounter supply issues.
As mentioned previously contact details should be on the website, however, they are can be found here:
http://www.companiesintheuk.co.uk/ltd/djmodels (http://www.companiesintheuk.co.uk/ltd/djmodels)
(Companies House website is having issues displaying more than the company number)
Michael
don't look now, but there is a new member who goes by the name of DJM Dave that joined a few days ago....
Guess he's just waiting out the anti spammer period, before posting :doh:
Re Michael Shillabeer's post, to get anything other than basic info on a company you have to cough up , the "companies in the uk " website will have to pay Companies House for details, so possibly cheaper just to go to the Gov.uk website. You can also get details of directors and previous posts held etc.
In my last job we would check some prospective clients thus, often you would enter a name and find that the person had been a director of a dozen companies with similar names eg XYZ Roofing , XYZ Contractors , XYZ Builders
etc, usually defunct or struck off, that's when the signal went to danger. :D
Always worth remembering because if you deal with a limited company which goes bust, the
average punter loses almost everything after the big boys have picked the bones clean.
Not casting any aspersions on the aforementioned model business, just talking generally in
a land of rogues, conmen, shysters, flim flam artists and thieves in suits.
Quote from: Agrippa on September 10, 2013, 01:26:16 PM
Always worth remembering because if you deal with a limited company which goes bust, the
average punter loses almost everything after the big boys have picked the bones clean.
Not casting any aspersions on the aforementioned model business, just talking generally in
a land of rogues, conmen, shysters, flim flam artists and thieves in suits.
Even well-intentioned businessmen can hit unforeseen problems, or be grossly overoptimistic and overambitious. People trying to make a business out of their hobby could be particularly at risk.
Let's hope we can get these models through independent retail outlets, where the risk to the consumer is so much less. Buying by credit card also offers a degree of protection.
Quote from: Bartercode on September 10, 2013, 01:37:28 PM
Even well-intentioned businessmen can hit unforeseen problems, or be grossly overoptimistic and overambitious. People trying to make a business out of their hobby could be particularly at risk.
Let's hope we can get these models through independent retail outlets, where the risk to the consumer is so much less. Buying by credit card also offers a degree of protection.
Absolutely.
I'd say that one thing that points in Dave's favour on this is that he didn't use the bankruptcy protection to dodge debts from his previous company and immediately start another one. He went off and got a job for a few years instead.
Typically the dodgy ones just close one company and start another (usually under shady tricks to dodge the bankruptcy rules).
Let's hope we can get these models through independent retail outlets, where the risk to the consumer is so much less. Buying by credit card also offers a degree of protection.
[/quote]
Way to go, buying that way involves much less risk to the consumer, though I imagine most
of the cottage industry type of model suppliers are kosher. Just if it's a one man band type
of business and the proprietor has some problem like illness or a technical hitch your order
might not be dealt with, though depending on how you pay you might not lose any cash.
Nthusiast Resprays wasn't a "company" it was Dave, and if I remember rightly (its some time back) Dave was also a truck driver at the time. I did have to chase him back them for the Western respray he did for me but it was delivered. It did seem to get a bit out of hand before he joined Dapol.
Never had any problems with dealing with Dave at Dapol so hopefully DJModels will go well and he's got all the right other people he needs.
Alan
I'd say give the man a chance, people learn by their mistakes, at the rate some of you are going the business could be doomed before it starts.
Quote from: Dorsetmike on September 10, 2013, 02:03:45 PM
I'd say give the man a chance, people learn by their mistakes, at the rate some of you are going the business could be doomed before it starts.
Well said Mike, heartily agree, another maker in N gauge should see some interesting models appear and also be a bit more competition for the big boys.
Quote from: Dorsetmike on September 10, 2013, 02:03:45 PM
I'd say give the man a chance, people learn by their mistakes, at the rate some of you are going the business could be doomed before it starts.
I did give the man a chance, and I was passing on my experience to others. I've heard that he's a nice chap in person, but the fact remains that I emailed him for a long period (we're talking YEARS here!), I gave him many chances to send my model or a refund with promises of such, and in the end I was ignored. I've given up chasing him, had enough a long time ago. This thread isn't censored like other forums, so sadly, the past will come back to haunt him on google searches. The power of the internet.
Again, if he wishes to make contact and refund me then I'm here.
I will say no more about it here, as I've made my point. I do wish him good luck regardless, as the models will be great I'm sure.
Quote from: EtchedPixels on September 10, 2013, 02:00:59 PM
Nthusiast Resprays wasn't a "company" it was Dave, and if I remember rightly (its some time back) Dave was also a truck driver at the time. I did have to chase him back them for the Western respray he did for me but it was delivered. It did seem to get a bit out of hand before he joined Dapol.
Never had any problems with dealing with Dave at Dapol so hopefully DJModels will go well and he's got all the right other people he needs.
Alan
Hi
I bought a Tamper kit from him and although I had to chase him it did arrive within a month.
Cheers
Paul
Nevertheless, it would be wrong to think that Tank's experience was a unique example. It is wrong to imply that maybe he didn't try hard enough to resolve the issue. My experience too was almost mission impossible, despite being very polite and persistent over a very long period of time.
Quote from: Bartercode on September 10, 2013, 05:16:54 PM
Nevertheless, it would be wrong to think that Tank's experience was a unique example. It is wrong to imply that maybe he didn't try hard enough to resolve the issue. My experience too was almost mission impossible, despite being very polite and persistent over a very long period of time.
Hi
Nothing was implied and I was just giving my experience of dealing with Dave.
Cheers
Paul
Quote from: OwL on September 10, 2013, 10:42:13 AM
Did anyone see RMweb?
There is a member called General-Torvek who has repeated what has been said here about Jones ripping off people in his past venture and his post has mysteriously vanished!
What kind of censorship is that?
All the guy said was 'Although he wishes Dave well people should beware before giving him money up front due to issues with N'thusiast'
I cannot believe they deleted it so quick when all he was trying to do is point out issues he may have experienced with
DJ.!!!
That has really shocked me and I'm glad this forum is a place where people can express themselves about issues honestly without fear of censorship like has occurred elsewhere.
RMWeb says the messages have been removed for legal reasons. That is probably sensible if the contents may have had some legal repercussions for the site owners.
Hi everyone,
My first post here if it gets through.
I mailed Tank directly by PM at 5pm on Sunday as soon as I was made aware of the situation and comments on here ( I joined here at the same time, as I said I would to a couple of mods at Leamington).
Tank, if you didn't get the PM then I sorry, but for you and everyone on here I'll restate my position.
Firstly I am truly sorry that this issue has gone on for so long for you and others.
One of the conditions of my past employment was that I cleared up any problems I ay have had with my previous 'job'.
Unfortunately my (not very nice) split with my soon to be ex wife caused not only the imaginable grief, but a complete loss of paperwork and records, causing me to lose awareness of what was owed to whom etc.
Then instead of fessing up, I relied on these customers to contact me at shows etc so I could deal with the situation as and when it arose. (Wrong decision).
I dealt with many customers, and as the contacts ceased I assumed that was that. Again, wrong, and to be honest I'm sure in the last 7 years you, and others have been in touch, but I honestly cannot remember.
I'm not one to take money and run and in my mail offered you a full refund, and apologies, at the end of this month. (I'm a bit spent out at the moment as you can imagine).
Please contact me directly so I can sort this out for you without any necessarily further delay.
Once again, sorry to you and others that may have thought I was a complete 'wrong un' in the intervening 7 years.
Cheers
Dave
DJModels Limited
Thank you Dave. I have sent you a PM.
Good luck with your new venture Dave, I'm sure you will get a lot of support from forum members.
:welcomesign: Dave
Good luck with your new venture. I'm interested in the J94 and will be keeping an eye on your progress.
I for one am very pleased to see you posting on here Dave, very courageous of you to come into the lion's den but at least everything is now in the open and hopefully will be fully resolved to everyone's satisfaction and all the cobwebs will be dusted off so you can successfully move forward with your exciting new venture.
:welcomesign:
Quote from: whiteswan on September 10, 2013, 09:11:26 PM
I for one am very pleased to see you posting on here Dave, very courageous of you to come into the lion's den but at least everything is now in the open and hopefully will be fully resolved to everyone's satisfaction and all the cobwebs will be dusted off so you can successfully move forward with your exciting new venture.
:welcomesign:
Agree with Caz, can't be easy to step into this on a public forum so good on you for doing so :thumbsup:
Nice to meet you on sunday and hopefully we can look forward to some quality models :)
On the subject of RMweb censorship I can see why they would remove such posts, as far as the forum and its commercial sponsors are concerned it's an unproven accusation which could leave them open to all sorts of legal difficulties.
Paul
Your a brave man coming on here and opening up like that.
If you can clear up the historic problems to everyone's satisfaction it'll be to your credit.
So welcome Dave and good luck on your new venture.
:welcomesign:
Ray
Dave,
Without wanting to rake over old muck, are you going to consider revamping and relaunching your Tamper from Nthusiast days???
I think you may do well with that, especially considering modern production techniques, oh and the fact that none of the UK manufacturers has even considered it ;) ;)
I know it is available in 1:160 but a 1:148 one would go well.
Regards
Neal.
Welcome aboard Dave...... :thumbsup:
Looking forward to your participation on the forum and hopefully some cracking models over the coming years...... :thumbsup: :NGaugersRule:
Hello Dave
Good luck with your new venture. I hope it goes well.
I'll second Neal's suggestion for a Tamper. It doesn't have to be RTR - kits are more fun!
Michael
Good to have you here Mr Jones!
Glad too that you have or are in the process of clearing up lingering 'problems' from the past.
All the very best for the future and I look forward to the opportunity to own some DJM locos.
Dave G
Welcome aboard Dave ! :wave:
Looking forward to all of your N products, I'll definitely be interested in the class 17 clayton.
Hope you new venture goes well, N gauge needs more RTR manufacturers !
Quote from: Michael Shillabeer on September 11, 2013, 08:05:16 AM
Hello Dave
Good luck with your new venture. I hope it goes well.
I'll second Neal's suggestion for a Tamper. It doesn't have to be RTR - kits are more fun!
Michael
yes thirded, more Yellow things please or even Engineers Red/Black/Olive. (60's/70's/80's vintage)
There, is always the other Dave's stuff at http://modernimagemodels.co.uk/ (http://modernimagemodels.co.uk/) but they are a bit too modern for my chosen period, but still will probably get them in time.
I already have one of DJ's tampers from his previous incarnation as a purveyor of N gauge models & repaints. Cracking little model, great for cluttering up the depot.
Hello Dave
A small suggestion for a new RTR company...
Could packing be created that fits into Royal Mail's large letter format - 353mm x 250mm x 25mm
Its annoying having to pay parcel rate for something only a little bigger than 25mm thick!
Michael
Quote from: Michael Shillabeer on September 11, 2013, 09:23:00 AM
Hello Dave
A small suggestion for a new RTR company...
Could packing be created that fits into Royal Mail's large letter format - 353mm x 250mm x 25mm
Its annoying having to pay parcel rate for something only a little bigger than 25mm thick!
Michael
Might be a real challenge to protect a 19mm wide model against the vagaries of the post within 25mm. I think that I'd rather have a well cushioned product box then padded all round in a bigger box, and pay the little extra for it to get to destination in one piece.
I'm another for Trackplant of the 70's/80's. :thumbsup:
One thing that I would like to know is, if the loco's fail out of warranty, where will they be repaired?
Hi Dave,
Glad to see you posting on the forum.
As requested I mailed you both on your website and to your mail address on Saturday night but have received no reply. Just wanted to make sure you received them ???
Regarding the class 17, are you intending to make a dummy version as, let's face it, they generally went around in pairs :D
Quote from: Tank on September 11, 2013, 10:00:48 AM
I'm another for Trackplant of the 70's/80's. :thumbsup:
One thing that I would like to know is, if the loco's fail out of warranty, where will they be repaired?
The Boardrooms mighty desk, aka Daves kitchen table ;)
Quote from: newportnobby on September 11, 2013, 11:04:13 AM
Regarding the class 17, are you intending to make a dummy version as, let's face it, they generally went around in pairs :D
As far as I can see the dummies listed are in twin packs;-
N17-006T D8574 BR Blue (powered) + D8583 BR Blue (dummy) Twin Pack - £149.95
N17-007T D8616 BR Green SYWP (powered) + D8561 BR Green SYWP (Dummy) Twin Pack - £149.95
Hi, out of warranty repairs will either be done by an appointed agency, or, depending on how things go, might be done 'in house' with premises and staff in Liverpool.
This will be clarified closer to the first release.
Cheers
Dave
Good to see you are watching and interacting on this thread Dave, I wish you all the best with your venture and hope to acquire the J94 when available. The other two are out of my area of interest but very interested in how they go and what may follow after.
Best wishes
Simon
Welcome Dave, think a good overall response to the proposed models.
Exiting times ahead indeed and good to see proposed prices in the realistic reach of modellers with spares back up and pre delivery testing.
I know this is a big commitment for you personally and wish you every success.
PH
Cheers guys,
It's appreciated.
I'll try and post expediently as soon as I have something new to say on the N gauge models, but if I don't, please accept my apologies.
If I post he update to my website timeline but don't get round to posting here, will you bear with me and can someone please copy and past that info here on my behalf?
Many thanks
Dave
It certainly is an interesting development, the timescales of which raises an eyebrow too. That 18in Hunslet could prove very costly to me if the clubs layout extends to take in the factory! However, given the time it takes to carry out ample research and get CAD work to a presentable stage one has to assume that the R&D work began under Dapol unless DJ has been burning the midnight oil and not using Dapols resources. It would be disappointing if any dispute were to arise if my concerns bear fruit, I just hope that everything is above board in the founding and R&D of DJMs first models. This is in no way a snipe, but a very real concern that in the worst case scenario could see none of the announcements make it beyond CAD. I hope I'm very wrong and wish DJ the best with his venture.
Hi,
I'm confused 'using Dapol's resources'?
Sorry mate, that's not an avenue to go down on a forum (any forum), as it opens all sorts of cans.
I think it fair to say that my factory has produced these within a few weeks of my ordering them, paying for them and getting them my scrawls on napkins etc, such is the wonderful relationship I have with them which allows for expediency.
None of this has been done before my resignation.
I hope this clarifies things?
Cheers
Dave
It does indeed allay my concerns. Something very similar happened not too long ago with pressure monitoring equipment at a supplier for my employers where a designer set up on their own using designs they had been working on prior to resigning, you can imagine the resulting mess. Given the short time (weeks) between resignation and CAD work appearing when compared with the more usual months taken with research and CAD it did raise a niggle in the back of my mind. I'm glad to hear that I can put that worry to bed and look forward to further progress. :thumbsup:
Well,its good to see Dave replying in the manner that he is currently.I too,echo the comments on here from others about his new venture.I am most interested in the Baby Deltic and considering I bought a BH Enterprises kit at TINGS,I am still looking towards buying one of Dave's as well.
As for the past stuff,its before my return to model railways so I didn't know an awful lot about it anyway,only what I read on here.
One thing I do know though is this,in spite of being spoken to in a very rude manner just prior to my stupid question about an n gauge APT-P,(petentially a missed opportunity?maybe not now)he was still,nevertheless,polite and happy to talk to me,wven if the answer was a resolute no.Still think that if he produced one in n gauge,he would do ok with it,I would buy one or two.This was at TINGS in 2010.In 2011,I was salivating over the sound fitted Virgin HST at TINGS and trust me when I say this,even though he quoted me a rather silly £1400 for the sound fitted HST bookset,I was very tempted,very tempted indeed.Last time I saw him was at Wigan on DC Kits stand with Charlie and Legomanbiffo.He was only there briefly but,and I don't want to suggest anything,so I won't.
What I do look forward to is seeing Dave at the front of a trade stand at an exhibition,with his name above it,doing what he did whilst at Dapol,talking to us lot.
Look forward to more chats Dave.
Pete
:Class31: :Class37: :NGaugersRule:
Welcome aboard, Dave. I'm really looking forward to seeing how your new locos develop, particularly the Baby Deltic.
You'll find NGF an excellent forum with plenty of refugees from Yahoogroups and RMWeb to tap for advice. It's pretty laid-back on the whole, despite one or two earlier posts in this thread that made my eyebrows raise, to say the least. :o
Come on guys,
I've just noticed this thread has slipped to 7th on the list.
This simply isn't good enough, pull your collective fingers out as I expect to be top 3 for at least a couple of more days. ;)
Cheers
Dave
Quote from: DJM Dave on September 11, 2013, 11:03:56 PM
Come on guys,
I've just noticed this thread has slipped to 7th on the list.
This simply isn't good enough, pull your collective fingers out as I expect to be top 3 for at least a couple of more days. ;)
Cheers
Dave
Nice to see you're keeping your feet on the ground and doing the PR grunt work ;)
Out of interest (as it possibly indicates some of the modelling mind behind the designs) do you have a layout at home (or a club) you're working on?
Can we start a wish list?
A few SR locos to start with, N15, AKA King Arthur and a Lord Nelson and maybe something Drummond, L11, S11 or L12 maybe, and for them at the Eastern end of the SR maybe D1, E1 or L1, and one of the ex LBSC tanks for them in the middle.
Until the M7 and Terrier and UM's 700, T9 and 0395 there was nothing RTR for SR pre WW2, Spam cans came late on the SR scene, one could be forgiven for thinking that they are the only SR express most people have ever heard of.
I read on't other forum,you know the one,that he is building an n gauge layout.I haven't looked on there for a while but if you go onto the manufacturers page and look up the farish deltic thread,you may find some interesting comments from Dave.
He actually has plans to buy 22 new tooled Farish Deltics and model them as they were with all the subtle differences applied over the years they were in service.Not sure about preservation though.
I think we all had an idea that he is a bit of an enthusiast by the way the loco's and stock detailing became available to us so we could scrutinise them,even though some came in for a bit of criticism from others,ie colour and cab roof shapes on class 56's.It is my opinion that due to his input,though not solely,this is why we are now enjoying such nice,beautifully detailed models today.It actually made Farish sit up and take note.You only have to look at an older tooled Farish model next to a newer one to see this.Heck,just compare an old Farish class 56 to a new Dapol one,or perhaps a Farish Deltic and Deltic Prototype,immeasurably better I think you'll agree.
My return to model railways and first go in n gauge came a few years after Dave started working for Dapol so even though my first Dapol loco,a class 58 in railfreight red stripe,was everything I expected,I still couldn't get my head around how well detailed it is for such a small model.Now,we accept this as the norm.
Ine hopes that Dave can push the boundaries further in the future.
Pete
:Class31: :Class37: :NGaugersRule:
Quote from: DJM Dave on September 11, 2013, 06:28:18 PM
Hi, out of warranty repairs will either be done by an appointed agency, or, depending on how things go, might be done 'in house' with premises and staff in Liverpool
Cheers
Dave
"Giz a job".........."Go ed i could do dat"......"Go 'ead giz it"............... :D
Quote from: DJM Dave on September 11, 2013, 11:03:56 PM
Come on guys,
I've just noticed this thread has slipped to 7th on the list.
This simply isn't good enough, pull your collective fingers out as I expect to be top 3 for at least a couple of more days. ;)
Cheers
Dave
:laughabovepost: :laughabovepost:
Quote from: Dock Shunter on September 12, 2013, 12:44:03 AM
"Giz a job".........."Go ed i could do dat"......"Go 'ead giz it"............... :D
The youngster's ie "thatchers children" will never get that quote! They just think you've lost it..... wait a minute your not 6'6" with a big black moustache and manic staring eyes are you......
Quote from: Dorsetmike on September 12, 2013, 12:00:30 AM
Can we start a wish list?
We already have one, it's called the annual NGF Loco Poll (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=14425.msg143411#msg143411) :thumbsup:
Paul
Hi,
Yes I have 1 layout ( The late Andy Calvert's 'Welham Green') and i was going to do Finsbury Park, but as the deltic s are delayed a bit, I've put that on hold (although I'm still getting 22 of them for the near future),., and now I'm slowly building an 8ft x 2'6" MPD called 'Old Elm Common' based on a fictitious western region depot of the 60/70's.
I have loads of stock for it and am awaiting the Westerns, 31's, 33's and 25's to finish the stock list (along with 1 Deltic).
A western Pullmann would be perfect and I do have a feeling about next years releases ;-)
The majority of the buildings are Farish resin RTP ones, with a Peco turntable and old cars. Code 55 track, DCC with sound wherever possible using my favoured NCE system.
Like most things, this will take time, but I hope to unveil it on the masses next September somewhere.
Cheers
Dave
Quote from: DJM Dave on September 12, 2013, 11:13:51 AM
Hi,
Yes I have 1 layout ( The late Andy Calvert's 'Welham Green') and i was going to do Finsbury Park, but as the deltic s are delayed a bit, I've put that on hold (although I'm still getting 22 of them for the near future),., and now I'm slowly building an 8ft x 2'6" MPD called 'Old Elm Common' based on a fictitious western region depot of the 60/70's.
I have loads of stock for it and am awaiting the Westerns, 31's, 33's and 25's to finish the stock list (along with 1 Deltic).
A western Pullmann would be perfect and I do have a feeling about next years releases ;-)
The majority of the buildings are Farish resin RTP ones, with a Peco turntable and old cars. Code 55 track, DCC with sound wherever possible using my favoured NCE system.
Like most things, this will take time, but I hope to unveil it on the masses next September somewhere.
Cheers
Dave
Dave, you a can always do a Pete Waterman and get your minions to build it all for you..... Wait you've not got any minions yet, give it a month or two then......
Quote from: AndyGif on September 12, 2013, 07:06:52 AM
Quote from: Dock Shunter on September 12, 2013, 12:44:03 AM
"Giz a job".........."Go ed i could do dat"......"Go 'ead giz it"............... :D
The youngster's ie "thatchers children" will never get that quote! They just think you've lost it.....
:D
Quote from: AndyGif on September 12, 2013, 07:06:52 AM
Quote from: Dock Shunter on September 12, 2013, 12:44:03 AM
"Giz a job".........."Go ed i could do dat"......"Go 'ead giz it"............... :D
wait a minute your not 6'6" with a big black moustache and manic staring eyes are you......
No....that's me little brother... :D
Kernow Model Centre appear to be taking pre orders for DJM Locos and at a discount to prices announced by Dave.
Ray
Quote from: DJM Dave on September 11, 2013, 07:12:10 PM
Cheers guys,
It's appreciated.
I'll try and post expediently as soon as I have something new to say on the N gauge models, but if I don't, please accept my apologies.
If I post he update to my website timeline but don't get round to posting here, will you bear with me and can someone please copy and past that info here on my behalf?
Many thanks
Dave
Hi Dave
I am also pleased to see you posting on this Forum.
It is perfectly understandable that your Business Plan would start with the 00 Gauge J94 as I would perceive this to be by some way the least risky route. I hope that this delivers product and then sales quickly enough for you to reinvest in the N (and other) products you have planned while the momentum is still here.
Posting progress on your Website makes a lot of sense, and I look forward to watching the Clatyon in particular grow from CAD through EP to the finished product. I never thought in my wildest dreams I'd ever have the chance of owning a RTR Clatyon (or two) in N!
Can you disclose (sorry if it has already been mentioned elsewhere) the order in which products will be developed assuming the success of the aforementioned 00 J94?
Regards
Roy
Produce an n gauge j94 lner within a year dave and you will eclipse farishand dapol for promised products. Good luck.
Dave,I've just had a bit of an idea.As you are just starting,why don't you produce future models with a view to fitting sound decoders in your n gauge models like manufacturers do with their oo gauge ranges.This may kickstart the others into doing the same.
Now as my own dcc sound fitted fleet enters double figures,I don't mind all the work stripping them down to component parts and going throigh them to ensure optimum running but some would just like to be able to plug and play.To a small extent,even one of the sound decoder manufacturers,CT,recognises that people just don't want to have to invalidate a warranty in order to install sound.
Again,as I say,I don't mind so its no problem for me.What is an area where there is trouble is somewhere to fit a sugarcube speaker.Some loco's have a plastic moulded underframe but this still warrants a stripdown,not the main chassis block,just removing the underframe area in order to get at a space that is made hollow by removal of chassis material so a speaker can be sited there.There are other areas on top but they still generally require pcb removal and a rewire.
While I accept it is probably a bit of an undertaking to produce a loco that can be converted to dcc sound without too much work involved,what it will do is bring the possibilty of installing dcc sound in n gauge to the masses.You probably know that it is a rather long and fiddly job that a few businesses are doing now,but it is still a very expensive conversion,which most people baulk at unless they do it themselves.Since I started doing my own,I don't have to send them away with a cheque for lots of pounds,currently around £220 as well as the loco I want converting.This is why I did my own,then I went a bit to far by doing another 3 in a month!
I'm sure there are otherls who will come along and say "good idea,Pete" and others who won't but as it may make the others take note like they did when Dapol produced such nice,well detailed models for us n gauge modellers,perhaps if your models were produced with sound installation taken into consideration,then that would make your business a market leader ensuring that both Farish and Dapol do the same.Which at the moment they refuse to do.
Just a suggestion,thats all.
And a question.At the weekend,at TINGS,the layout you were helping out on,Vale of Oxbury,it had a sound fitted green class 24 and 37 running around it.Are these your loco's or do they belong to the layouts owners?
Pete
:Class31: :Class37: :NGaugersRule:
Hi Pete,
Sound idea ;-)
I'll look at it and see what I can think up.
As for the 24, that was mine, while the 37 was Carl's which I think was done for him by Wickness. HTH
Cheers
Dave
One solution for the sound chips/speaker cubes might be to put them in coaches and/or trucks with pickups on the wheels. If it's in the first one after the engine I'm betting nobody would be able to tell that the sound's not quite coming from the right place at normal distance from a layout (especially when moving) and you get a lot more space to fit the speaker.
Quote from: Zwilnik on September 12, 2013, 08:59:02 PM
One solution for the sound chips/speaker cubes might be to put them in coaches and/or trucks with pickups on the wheels. If it's in the first one after the engine I'm betting nobody would be able to tell that the sound's not quite coming from the right place at normal distance from a layout (especially when moving) and you get a lot more space to fit the speaker.
Except it doesn't work for locos running light engine :no:
Locos in N ready for sound would be great and a first for UK N (though we already have the odd unit ready for sound).
Cheers, Mike
Quote from: DJM Dave on September 12, 2013, 08:17:24 PM
Hi Pete,
Sound idea ;-)
I'll look at it and see what I can think up.
As for the 24, that was mine, while the 37 was Carl's which I think was done for him by Wickness. HTH
Cheers
Dave
I agree with the others! N gauge DDC Sound ready please :D
Good point red_death :)
If the cube of space for the speaker/chip comes filled with a block of lead (or EU approved very heavy metal) then those of us running DC can benefit from the heavier weight and it can be removed for DCC.
I think pete has got a good point here. but i have a slight modification to his suggestion (unless this is what you mean?)
What about actually manufacturing the loco with a speaker built in. The speaker itself is really very cheap, less than a fiver, and if you are buying 200, then I'm sure they would be cheaper still. I think this additional cost wouldn't put up the price too much, a blanking chip would bypass the the speaker, but if a sound chip was installed then the speaker would be there. Absolutely simple install, just plugin the chip.
And if the speaker is built in at the design stage then you don't have to make the space easily accessible because its installed as part of he manufacturing process.
And if you don't want sound, then you've got a loco with a speaker in it that doesn't do anything, a bit like having lights that only work when you're moving in dc.
Just a thought.
Cheers
Kirky
That's an even better idea. With the speaker designed in, you can make better use of available space.
This is generally what I was suggesting,though not leaving the onus on the manufacturer to provide the speaker even though they are a fiver.It may mean that Farish have to redesign their pcb so a decoder will fit but seeing as the pcb's that Dapol fit are about a quarter of the size of the Farish ones,it brings into question,do Farish loco's need pcb's this large?
Having converted a Farish/Modelzone RTC class 24,a class 37 and a 47 that incorporate these pcb's,I have completely removed them,added resistors to replace the ones that were on the pcb,I came to the conclusion that apart from for the fitment of directional lighting,there is no need to have such a large pcb with the number of components on the board.The latest hst pcb has a diode,3 resistors,one of which is for suppresion purposes I believe and the inevitable nem socket.On a Farish pcb,it has a resistor for every bulb on the chassis,suppresion caps,diodes and nem plug.
How much of this is overkill?
I'm not a very knowledgable chap as far as electronics is concerned but what I do know is that when you hardwire a sound decoder into a new tooled Farish loco,apart from adding resistors to the lighting to prevent the leds blowing,you might as well throw the pcb in the bin.Its also very difficult to fit a wired sound decoder in whilst keeping the pcb,though its not impossible as the conversions that Wickness Models do,don't remove the pcb.I do on the other hand as it seems much easier to me because the first consideration I make is to ensure that what I fit will go inside and allow the body to sit correctly and so it doesn't in any way cause a short circuit.
Its these considerations I refer to,speaker positioning and the ability to be able to fit either a Zimo Mx648,ESU Loksound v4micro or a CT SL76 direct plug in sound decoder.Rhe Zimi and Loksound ones are wired decoders so must allow for the wires even if they are shortened.
It may seem lime a big ask but as mechanisms get ever smaller,the chances of being able to produce models with these provisions gets greater and greater.
As I say,it doesn't bother me,or trouble me to do a full strip down of the loco chassis as it allows me to see what I can do to repair a faulty loco later on should a fault develop,in order to fit dcc sound,its just that lots of people don't want to do this,citing the reason being that they don't want to reduce an expensive loco to a pile of scrap bits.I thought this but it doesn't matter how much you reassure someone theres not much to them,they're still very reluctant to do it.
Pete
:Class31: :Class37: :NGaugersRule:
Quote from: REGP on September 12, 2013, 05:23:16 PM
Kernow Model Centre appear to be taking pre orders for DJM Locos and at a discount to prices announced by Dave.
Ray
I asked hattons via their online chat and the sales person knew nothing of hattons stocking dim products at that stage. Looks like kernows have got the jump on them
Bart
Quote from: 1936ace on September 13, 2013, 05:09:27 AM
Quote from: REGP on September 12, 2013, 05:23:16 PM
Kernow Model Centre appear to be taking pre orders for DJM Locos and at a discount to prices announced by Dave.
Ray
I asked hattons via their online chat and the sales person knew nothing of hattons stocking dim products at that stage. Looks like kernows have got the jump on them
Bart
Interesting that. A posting by Dave Jones dated 11 September on the DJM site is indicating that distributors have yet to be appointed.
Dave G
Quote from: kirky on September 12, 2013, 10:20:54 PM
What about actually manufacturing the loco with a speaker built in. The speaker itself is really very cheap, less than a fiver
And anyone buying one has to pay for it regardless of whether they want sound or not !
I would prefer that the
space be designed in, and maybe a speaker-installed version could be available at the uplifted price; that way, only those wanting sound get it and the rest of us pay less. Unless the actual uplift (based on quantity purchase) would be something like 50p ...
Mike
Quote from: MikeDunn on September 13, 2013, 09:35:08 AM
And anyone buying one has to pay for it regardless of whether they want sound or not !
I would prefer that the space be designed in, and maybe a speaker-installed version could be available at the uplifted price; that way, only those wanting sound get it and the rest of us pay less. Unless the actual uplift (based on quantity purchase) would be something like 50p ...
We have this type of argument presented every time a manufacturer adds new features - whether it be finer detail, lights, DCC provision. As Kirky said adding a built in speaker should cost no more than £5 (and probably less). It probably isn't far off the point where it becomes more expensive to tool two different PCBs ie with/without speaker than to just do one with the speaker, but that is a decision for Dave.
In feature terms it is actually much smarter than offering sound pre-installed and offers another advantage over OO ie it helps make the scale more attractive.
The only thing to be careful of is speaker types - the old ESU Loksound v3.5 used 100 ohm speakers, fortunately the new v4 plus Zimo and CT decoders use 4 or 8 ohm speakers.
Cheers, Mike
Quote from: red_death on September 13, 2013, 09:58:34 AM
We have this type of argument presented every time a manufacturer adds new features
Agreed - but some new features are pretty cheap whereas others are measured in multiple pounds ...
Quote
It probably isn't far off the point where it becomes more expensive to tool two different PCBs ie with/without speaker than to just do one with the speaker
But that isn't what was being discussed - the
inclusion of a speaker was what I was replying to ... There will be no cost difference to the moulding as it will be the same.
Regarding designing PCBs (something I play around with at the moment, as it happens), I see no reason why it will be a lot more to include the (relatively minor) changes needed to include the traces needed to wire a speaker onto the main board ... The price difference for the board I'm working on currently compared to the original one I started with is maybe
30 pence to handle the additional component traces. And the future system that this will become will have
many other changes in it - but I'm not expecting the PCB price to vary by more than £1. PCBs are pretty cheap - more so than I had thought prior to my investigations (£77.37 for 50, or £1.50 each); how much more going SMD will be - now that's something that currently I don't know, but will (as I am aiming to have SMD for everything I can, pre-assembled at the factory, with only my PIC being added by me); hopefully it will be similar, as SMD will allow me to get the board smaller.
Quote
In feature terms it is actually much smarter than offering sound pre-installed and offers another advantage over OO ie it helps make the scale more attractive.
But it's still an extra expense that the majority of N gauge modellers don't want ... As I said, having the
space already in place for the speaker is a great idea; one that is happening more & more in OO.
Mike
You "only" need to do something like have the weight blocks cast as two one of which happens to be a bit over speaker size. Bachmann do something similar with the decoder space on the 101 and 108 but with a plastic frame for some reason.
As to what is smart, if I was in the production business I'd be looking at providing 'sound fitted' locos a shade under the conversion prices. and if I was a committed capitalist I'd probably also cast two different weight blocks and ensure the one with the speaker slot only appeared in the locos pre-fitted for sound.
kerching :)
Alan
Quote from: MikeDunn on September 13, 2013, 10:34:14 AM
But that isn't what was being discussed - the inclusion of a speaker was what I was replying to ... There will be no cost difference to the moulding as it will be the same.
Regarding designing PCBs (something I play around with at the moment, as it happens), I see no reason why it will be a lot more to include the (relatively minor) changes needed to include the traces needed to wire a speaker onto the main board ...
I wasn't talking about the moulding - I was talking about the additional cost of designing, manufacturing and stocking of two PCBs. Even if the actual cost of the PCB is the same and the changes are pretty minimal (which they would be) you still have to design and work on two different manufacturing processes. My point was that any cost saving you might get from not having a speaker fitted might well be lost in additional cost of design/manufacturer of a second variant.
I'm sure that the cost of doing a second PCB variant wouldn't actually equal the cost of a speaker, but is the price point so sensitive that £5 will make the difference?
My other point was here was an opportunity to do more/better than the current OO market does.
Cheers, Mike
I'm lost.... :confused1: . Easier to follow a Midsomer Murders plot than this thread. :(
Quote from: MikeDunn on September 13, 2013, 10:34:14 AM
But it's still an extra expense that the majority of N gauge modellers don't want ... As I said, having the space already in place for the speaker is a great idea; one that is happening more & more in OO.
Mike
Haven't sales of Peco's Collet loco suffered because they only sell it with DCC already fitted?
Michael
Hi,
Quote from: EtchedPixels on September 13, 2013, 10:47:44 AM
You "only" need to do something like have the weight blocks cast as two one of which happens to be a bit over speaker size. Bachmann do something similar with the decoder space on the 101 and 108 but with a plastic frame for some reason.
...
I do like the 'sound' of that, I'm not overly sold on this notion of enforced onboard speakers - even if it's a relatively smaller financial 'hit' for those of us unconvinced.
There's a good deal more 'volume' available inside a OO shell to accept the potential loss in adhesive weight, I'd be concerned about that in N - was there not some dissatisfaction when Class 66s and Class 73s suffered weight loss from making latter issues 'DCC Ready'?
Again, Okay in larger American prototypes - if I could afford them :doh:
Regards, Gerry 8)
Quote from: steam-driven boy on September 13, 2013, 11:30:16 AM
There's a good deal more 'volume' available inside a OO shell to accept the potential loss in adhesive weight, I'd be concerned about that in N - was there not some dissatisfaction when Class 66s and Class 73s suffered weight loss from making latter issues 'DCC Ready'?
The later 66s and 73s used a plastic chassis rather than a metal one, but it didn't have to be like that to fit in a DCC socket (as Farish prove).
Cheers, Mike
Hi,
Quote from: red_death on September 13, 2013, 11:37:18 AM
Quote from: steam-driven boy on September 13, 2013, 11:30:16 AM
There's a good deal more 'volume' available inside a OO shell to accept the potential loss in adhesive weight, I'd be concerned about that in N - was there not some dissatisfaction when Class 66s and Class 73s suffered weight loss from making latter issues 'DCC Ready'?
The later 66s and 73s used a plastic chassis rather than a metal one, but it didn't have to be like that to fit in a DCC socket (as Farish prove).
Cheers, Mike
But would not a worthwhile sized speaker take up a proportionately greater space? And what of smaller prototypes?
Regards, Gerry 8)
Quote from: steam-driven boy on September 13, 2013, 11:44:14 AM
Hi,
Quote from: red_death on September 13, 2013, 11:37:18 AM
Quote from: steam-driven boy on September 13, 2013, 11:30:16 AM
There's a good deal more 'volume' available inside a OO shell to accept the potential loss in adhesive weight, I'd be concerned about that in N - was there not some dissatisfaction when Class 66s and Class 73s suffered weight loss from making latter issues 'DCC Ready'?
The later 66s and 73s used a plastic chassis rather than a metal one, but it didn't have to be like that to fit in a DCC socket (as Farish prove).
Cheers, Mike
But would not a worthwhile sized speaker take up a proportionately greater space? And what of smaller prototypes?
Regards, Gerry 8)
Hi
That would just be the same as the current 03 / 08 /14 none of which are DCC ready and don't have a socket so realistically wouldn't have the speaker either.
Cheers
Paul
Hi Paul,
Quote from: PaulCheffus on September 13, 2013, 11:54:52 AM
Quote from: steam-driven boy on September 13, 2013, 11:44:14 AM
Hi,
Quote from: red_death on September 13, 2013, 11:37:18 AM
Quote from: steam-driven boy on September 13, 2013, 11:30:16 AM
There's a good deal more 'volume' available inside a OO shell to accept the potential loss in adhesive weight, I'd be concerned about that in N - was there not some dissatisfaction when Class 66s and Class 73s suffered weight loss from making latter issues 'DCC Ready'?
The later 66s and 73s used a plastic chassis rather than a metal one, but it didn't have to be like that to fit in a DCC socket (as Farish prove).
Cheers, Mike
But would not a worthwhile sized speaker take up a proportionately greater space? And what of smaller prototypes?
Regards, Gerry 8)
Hi
That would just be the same as the current 03 / 08 /14 none of which are DCC ready and don't have a socket so realistically wouldn't have the speaker either.
Cheers
Paul
Even more of a reason, for me anyway, why the Etched Pixels
option makes so much sense, if you can't have universal sound on all loco's on the layout...
Regards, Gerry 8)
Quote from: steam-driven boy on September 13, 2013, 11:44:14 AM
But would not a worthwhile sized speaker take up a proportionately greater space? And what of smaller prototypes?
Hi Gerry
Proportionately more than what? The point about the later 66s and 73s was that space wasn't the issue (there is space) but that the materials used and design were completely different to the earlier models. If they had adopted the Farish solution of metal block with PCB incl socket Dapol could have had the best of both worlds ie DCC provision and mass.
Similarly fitting a speaker just needs a bit of pre-planning. Some of the sugar cube speakers are excellent and wouldn't take much space at all.
For smaller locos it may not be possible to fit a speaker in and have sufficient weight but I wouldn't bet on it! After all we are looking for ideas which are innovative and will help attract sales for Dave and make N more attractive.
Cheers, Mike
Hi Mike,
I am still concerned that Dave would be asking from hopefully many people more money for something they don't want which will possibly detract from the performance if it wasn't a simple option - engineering in the option and offering some 'Sound Ready Equipped' is the sensible way to test the market for this I would have thought :hmmm:
Regards, Gerry 8)
Hi Gerry
We will have to agree to disagree. See my earlier point about features we don't want...where does it stop? Spoked vs solid wheels? Lights or not? Decent coreless motors? etc
Sound equipped has the same issues as DCC equipped everyone has their own preferred decoder brand or their own preference of sound project. The only reason I can think you would want to do sound equipped is if you can do it more cheaply than the retail price of the decoder, otherwise you are designing in the ease of fitting but not making a compelling reason to buy it sound fitted ie I can buy a sound decoder + loco myself and fit it.
Cheers, Mike
Quote from: Agrippa on September 13, 2013, 11:17:25 AM
I'm lost.... :confused1: . Easier to follow a Midsomer Murders plot than this thread. :(
Agreed ... Red Death seems to be talking about different things to the rest of us !
Quote from: MikeDunn on September 13, 2013, 03:55:51 PM
Quote from: Agrippa on September 13, 2013, 11:17:25 AM
I'm lost.... :confused1: . Easier to follow a Midsomer Murders plot than this thread. :(
Agreed ... Red Death seems to be talking about different things to the rest of us !
No need to get personal...
For a novice a DCC & Sound Ready Loco might well have an added appeal.
On a suitable sized loco the provision of space for the speaker (removable weight maybe) and PCB connection or socket would make Sound a possibility for people like me.
Ray
Well, this is a can of worms, and the little blighters are well and truly out of it.
Just to be clear, I would only want a speaker included if the price difference were negligible. I quoted a fiver cos that's what I can buy them for. DJM will surely be able to buy them cheaper. Any chassis development should not be compromised for the speaker, far from it, we are talking about enhancing the loco, not detracting from the main essence, ie performance.
But, if a speaker can be pre fitted into the chassis, and the chassis effectively becomes the sound box, all the owner has to do is plug in a sound decoder. Simple.
My point was that speakers are so cheap that once you've designed a space for he speaker, why not just fit it? My whole point was that they are cheap enough to make almost no difference in cost, perhaps 50p might not e far off the mark? This is definitely not the same as the peco collet, we are not talking about a feature which costs 25ukp!
As an aside, in my opinion, I think there is enough room in the uk market for high(er) quality models that might cost more than dap/mann but less than CJM. A kind of European pricing policy, where models work consistently well, but you have to pay a bit more.
Before I get shot down in flames, I have said this is my opinion.
Cheers
Kirky
Gentlemen,the original idea was for Dave to incorporate a suitable space in which to be able to mount a speaker and sound decoder without the need for complete strip downs so as to grind and file the chassis.There would be no need to fit a speaker to the pcb either,but seeing as a 6 pin nem plug doesn't allow a sound decoder to be plugged in,the suggestion to do so is invalid anyway.Its only on sound decoders with 8 pins and above that will allow this to work anyway and seeing as an 8 pin nem socket is virtually the same width as an n gauge loco,this too is unsuitable.
As for the pcb,my suggestion is to produce one that is not going to fill the void above the chassis like on Farish models.The ones that Dapol fit are just a smidge smaller than a Loksound v4 micro so my theory is that if one of these smaller pcb's is employed,all that is required is for space to be provided for a sugarcube speaker and the owners choice of sound decoder.
There would be no need to design a different pcb for dc,dcc or dcc sound as all would be of a uniform design.I reiterate what I wrote yesterday,those who want to fit their loco with a sound decoder want to just plug one in,put a speaker in,pop the body back on and off they go,not have to spend a day or two studying,stripping the thing down,grinding the chassis,doing loads of soldering and then making fine adjustments to pickups and whatnot prior to final assembly.As I say,I don't mind doing this,I enjoy it in fact,its jist that most want to be able to just plug it in and off they go.
My opinion is that if a chassis block is designed with these considerations in mind,there would be no need to have separate prices for loco's ie dc loco only and dcc ready.The only price differences would occur if a customer wants either dcc fitted or dcc sound fitted,like oo gauge and o gauge manufacturers provide.
All I'm pointing to is to offer us the choice that larger scales have,not complete reengineering for the different applications.That would doom DJModels from the word go.
Pete
:Class31: :Class37: :NGaugersRule:
Yes, I agree Pete, you are quite right about the PCB and sockets. I was thinking it would be 8 pin, but that is maybe too big. However, it could be six pin with a couple of solder tabs for the speaker leads, a bit like Farish 60s or 66s PCBs. I agree though, it's not so simple as plug it in.
Cheers
Kirky
Dunno what all the fuss is about, real railway modellers don't need sound; sound is only for those who play trains. (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-fc/whistling.gif) (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-fc/hiding.gif)
(http://www.animateit.net/data/media/june2010/avatar.gif)
Quote from: red_death on September 12, 2013, 09:44:25 PM
Quote from: Zwilnik on September 12, 2013, 08:59:02 PM
One solution for the sound chips/speaker cubes might be to put them in coaches and/or trucks with pickups on the wheels. If it's in the first one after the engine I'm betting nobody would be able to tell that the sound's not quite coming from the right place at normal distance from a layout (especially when moving) and you get a lot more space to fit the speaker.
Except it doesn't work for locos running light engine :no:
Locos in N ready for sound would be great and a first for UK N (though we already have the odd unit ready for sound).
Cheers, Mike
You know, in four years watching Class 17s in the NE I never saw one light engine, they usually seemed to be pushing a brakevan or two (and occasionally pulling said brakevan) when not trying out on a train....
Les
Quote from: Les1952 on September 13, 2013, 06:44:02 PM
You know, in four years watching Class 17s in the NE I never saw one light engine, they usually seemed to be pushing a brakevan or two (and occasionally pulling said brakevan) when not trying out on a train....
Are you sure the brakevans weren't pulling the 17s? :D
Quote from: tutenkhamunsleeping on September 13, 2013, 07:38:59 PM
Are you sure the brakevans weren't pulling the 17s? :D
:laughabovepost: :laughabovepost:
Quote from: Dorsetmike on September 13, 2013, 06:31:01 PM
Dunno what all the fuss is about, real railway modellers don't need sound; sound is only for those who play trains. (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-fc/whistling.gif) (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-fc/hiding.gif)
(http://www.animateit.net/data/media/june2010/avatar.gif)
That's OK then because that's all we're doing, ALL of us :P :thumbsup:
Paul
Quote from: Michael Shillabeer on September 11, 2013, 09:23:00 AM
Hello Dave
A small suggestion for a new RTR company...
Could packing be created that fits into Royal Mail's large letter format - 353mm x 250mm x 25mm
Its annoying having to pay parcel rate for something only a little bigger than 25mm thick!
Michael
At least Royal Mail has recently revised the permissible sizes for a small parcel which completely transform the economics of sending multiple N gauge items. Seems extremely good value to me.
http://www.royalmail.com/newsmallparcel (http://www.royalmail.com/newsmallparcel)
Edit:
I forgot to quote Michael Shillabeer's original recommendation about box sizes to comply with Royal Mail letter sizes. Makes my comment look out of place without the original message! Doh!
Quote now added :)