Dapol (re)announce HST Protype train - open for pre-orders

[Trainfish]

Just before my spotting days then which probably started around 1978. In my first job as an apprentice from 1980 we used to regularly visit a site just down the road from Micheldever station and one of the guys I worked with was also a spotter so many a time we spent an extended lunch break down by the oil terminal watching the blue/grey Southern EMUs and occassional 33 or 73 go past. There was usually a 33 in the oil terminal too 

Anyway, back to the topic, my coaches haven't arrived yet and it 's been almost 24 hours since I ordered them 

[Steven B]

I can see it's at Swindon but have you any idea when that picture was taken or if there are any more of it especially at Swindon?

Sept 1976, Swindon on a down service (i.e. away from London)
You can see the original photo and others of the prototype HST here:
http://www.traintesting.com/HST_prototype.htm

It's funny how modellers like trains of uniform liveried stock even if the real things regularly mixed liveries throughout the years of BR and beyond.

Steven B.

[StufromEGDL]

Hi Gang,

I shall certainly be inserting the Farish Test Car 6 into my HST-P formation at certain times as per the pic from Reading a few posts above. Certainly the pic with the production Blue\ Grey coaches was a new one on me.
I must have made an error in my orders and I now have two sets of power cars ( in the passenger livery). Will probably get round to moving the spare pair on at some stage.

Later,
Stu from EGDL.

[Trainfish]

You can see the original photo and others of the prototype HST here:
http://www.traintesting.com/HST_prototype.htm

It's funny how modellers like trains of uniform liveried stock even if the real things regularly mixed liveries throughout the years of BR and beyond.

Steven B.

Some great pictures on that site @Steven B , thanks. I also spottted the picture below and until now was unaware an APT-E ever went through Swindon  In my defence I lived in Germany in 1975 and had hardly seen any trains until the summer of that year when we lived in Münster in Germany. We flew from somewhere in Germany to somewhere in the UK then went by train to Oban to catch the ferry to Lochboisdale and then a drive to Benbecula to see my uncle and aunt. Now that was a long trip! And a long sentence.

[pape_timmo]

If you watch this video, and part 2, Kit Spackman explains the circumstances for that photo at Swindon being taken, the HSDT team did not want the two trains seen together, but the APT-E team worked things so that it did happen.


https://youtu.be/HY1psxEDtqY

Cheers, Timmo

[Trainfish]

Just watched the whole of part 1 

I must admit I thought at first that the APT was 'hiding' behind the HST which wasn't quite the case it seems.

Great video and very interesting, thanks. I'll watch part 2 tomorrow 

[Trainfish]

My second set of 4 HST-P coaches arrived on Friday and now I'm not so sure I want to offload any, I like them too much. Maybe I'll use 1 and keep the others as spares. Not that I need spares but hey, who knows?

I was trawling through my uploaded pictures earlier and found this, I uploaded it 2 years ago apparently but I don't remember doing so 
Note there's no lamp bracket on it in this picture 

Also don't believe everything you see on the site.
When they ran out of prototype livery power cars just after they went live to the public, they magically added some more, so its hard to tell what is their limit.

Predictably there appears to be more stock on the Dapol site today 

[Hiawatha]

No news from Dapol. Neither by phone or email.
It's a shame !

And did you finally succeed in ordering from abroad?
I don't want to register at Dapol's site for this one train and then reach a dead end ...

[43095]

I had a closer look at my Dapol Prototype HST yesterday and noticed that most of the coaches have "E" prefixes to the running numbers, but two have "M".

Specifically, Saloon pack 1 (2P-007-001) contains FOs E11000, E11001, and TSOs E12000, E12001
Saloon pack 2 (2P-007-002) contains FOs E11002, M11003, and TSOs E12002, M12003
Buffet pack (2P-007-003) contains (T)RSB E10000 and (T)RUK E10100

For some reason I thought I had remembered that it was the two coaches which were later rebuilt to Royal Train saloons (11001 and 12001) which were "M" prefixed at one time. I had a quick flick through a couple of books but was not able to confirm anything to do with regional allocations except that of the 8 open saloons built, only 6 were re-numbered into the 41xxx and 42xxx HST number range when the set was re-classified as a DEMU, 252001 - the two "Royal" coaches were not renumbered. I might have some other books with more detail but they are up in an attic in the UK on the other side of the world from my current location!

Can anyone with access to better information (or better memories) enlighten me as to what the regional prefixes were and whether Dapol are correct or have used "artistic licence"? Even better, are there any actual recorded set formations? I'm especially interested in the period when the set was tested on the ECML with 41xxx power cars and 11xxx/12xxx/10xxx numbering of the coaches, rather than the WR 252001 era. I know set formations varied but wondered whether the "M" prefixed coaches were ever actually included in the Prototype HST formation or if they were always separately tested in loco hauled rakes? (I have no photographic or other evidence to back this theory up!)

For what it's worth, the renumbering was as follows:

11000 -> 41000 -> ADB975814 Test Car 10, now in New Measurement Train
11001 -> Royal train 2903
11002 -> 41001 -> rebuilt as production TF 41170
11003 -> 41002 -> rebuilt as production TF 41174 later converted to TS 43257
12000 -> 42000 -> rebuilt as production TF 41172, later converted to TS 42355
12001 -> Royal train 2904
12002 -> 42001 -> rebuilt as production TF 41171, later converted to TS 42353
12003 -> 42002 -> rebuilt as production TF 41173, later converted to TS 42356
10000 -> 40000 -> departmental 975984 now in New Measurement Train
10100 -> 40500 -> departmental 977089, scrapped in early 1990s

Thanks in advance if anyone is able to help!

Cheers,

Tom.

(also crossposted to RMWeb https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/102998-prototype-hst-announced-for-n/page/9/#comments)

[Flange Squeal]

Not sure if this answers your questions but I found this very interesting website:
Testing the prototype HST in 1973
http://www.traintesting.com/HST_prototype.htm
Consist of prototype HST
http://www.traintesting.com/consist_HST.htm

[43095]

Thanks, I'd looked at that website before but forgot to check again this time. It certainly seems to confirm the M11003 and M12003 prefixes. Interesting photos of the various formations through the testing and in-service phases with all sorts of different formations and locations for the catering vehicles within the set.

Not sure if this answers your questions but I found this very interesting website:
Testing the prototype HST in 1973
http://www.traintesting.com/HST_prototype.htm
Consist of prototype HST
http://www.traintesting.com/consist_HST.htm

[CaleyDave]

Hopefully someone can ahead light on formations
I believe Dapol's prefixes to be correct and your memories also correct.
Whilst I believe it to be incorrect that the royals once we're Midland coaches I too have seen that written down somewhere.

The MK3 was already underdevelopment when it was decided the HST prototype would be ordered with the two M coaches being ordered first. It was decided that the HST coaches would be delivered first despite being ordered later to allow testing of the HST concept.

The BR Lot numbers were as follows
Lot 30832 TSO 12003
Lot 30833 FO 11003
...
Lot 30847 TSO 12000-12002
Lot 30848 FO 11000-11002
Lot 30849 RSB 10000
Lot 30850 RUK 10100

The regional prefixes were based on the region they were sent to for testing.
The eastern region being chosen for HST testing due to the high speed stretches.
The other two coaches were used on the midland region in conventional locomotive hauled trains.
The HST testing was more complex and suffered from delays whilst the mk3's were a success and proved themselves.

At this stage all the coaches are the same and could have been used interchangeably in theory but would behave been geographically seperate (the HST being based at Neville Hill)

Renumbering happened around the same time as the train was overhauled in 1974 at which point it became set 252001.

I suspect the reason the two 003 coaches were kept was that they were available for testing the revised 3 phase electrical supply alongside the MK1 generator coach ADB975325 whilst the HST was being tested elsewhere. (Helped by being closer to Derby). It was not until the overhaul that the 3 phase electrical system was fitted to the power cars.
Others may be able to confirm if there were enough interiors for all coaches as the HST spent a long time running about with missing tables, again the M's would have needed interiors as they were running in service trains alongside mk2's.

When renumbered they gained Western prefixes as they were destined for crew training on the western region as the production sets had been authorised.

[43095]

Thanks CaleyDave, that's all very interesting and helps enormously to clear things up - especially that the 003 / "M" prefix coaches were actually ordered first and have earlier lot numbers.

There are precious few photos online of the prototype Mk 3 coaches being loco hauled - this one on Train Testing is maybe the only one I have seen: http://www.traintesting.com/images/Mk1%20buffet%20lighter.jpg. Presumably then the FO ahead of the RKB is M11003. As they are in the middle of a formation of Mk2 aircons this must predate the modification to a 3-phase 415v supply.

Hopefully someone can ahead light on formations
I believe Dapol's prefixes to be correct and your memories also correct.
Whilst I believe it to be incorrect that the royals once we're Midland coaches I too have seen that written down somewhere.

The MK3 was already underdevelopment when it was decided the HST prototype would be ordered with the two M coaches being ordered first. It was decided that the HST coaches would be delivered first despite being ordered later to allow testing of the HST concept.

The BR Lot numbers were as follows
Lot 30832 TSO 12003
Lot 30833 FO 11003
...
Lot 30847 TSO 12000-12002
Lot 30848 FO 11000-11002
Lot 30849 RSB 10000
Lot 30850 RUK 10100

The regional prefixes were based on the region they were sent to for testing.
The eastern region being chosen for HST testing due to the high speed stretches.
The other two coaches were used on the midland region in conventional locomotive hauled trains.
The HST testing was more complex and suffered from delays whilst the mk3's were a success and proved themselves.

At this stage all the coaches are the same and could have been used interchangeably in theory but would behave been geographically seperate (the HST being based at Neville Hill)

Renumbering happened around the same time as the train was overhauled in 1974 at which point it became set 252001.

I suspect the reason the two 003 coaches were kept was that they were available for testing the revised 3 phase electrical supply alongside the MK1 generator coach ADB975325 whilst the HST was being tested elsewhere. (Helped by being closer to Derby). It was not until the overhaul that the 3 phase electrical system was fitted to the power cars.
Others may be able to confirm if there were enough interiors for all coaches as the HST spent a long time running about with missing tables, again the M's would have needed interiors as they were running in service trains alongside mk2's.

When renumbered they gained Western prefixes as they were destined for crew training on the western region as the production sets had been authorised.

[43095]

Just replying to some earlier comments in the thread about ordering from overseas - I have just placed an online order for several items from the Dapol website for delivery to Australia. I've already purchased several of the Prototype HST packs (and didn't have any trouble arranging overseas delivery - they were ordered as pre-orders). I don't really need the Departmental yellow end power cars but succumbed to temptation and added them to my order. I then found I wasn't able to obtain a shipping quote or checkout!

Once I removed the Departmental Prototype HST power cars from the order, I was able to proceed, checkout and pay. I wonder why Dapol are being funny about allowing these to be ordered from overseas?