Speeding

[Trainfish]

Everything in life is usually risk assessed including driving whether it's the car, the weather, your speed etc etc. We often risk assess things like driving without even realising we're doing it. I can't say I'm squeaky clean with speed when behind the wheel but I feel I do risk assess the conditions including how busy a road is and most importantly I always keep a safe distance from the car in front. Unfortunately the driver behind me often sees this as an invitation or a challenge to overtake and hence halve the gap I have left, that really annoys me 

I have had around 20 points in total on my licence but 'only' ever 8 at 1 time and that only lasted around 4 months. I did manage to 'win' 5 points and a total of £600 in fines/victim support whilst driving on the A303 once. A court appearance followed after being reported for an average of 99.15mph over 2.5 miles and the judge wanted to take away my licence  Fortunately he listened to my mitigation and as I say I was 'lucky' to take away only 5 points and a much lighter wallet from Yeovil court. I know many people will disagree but at the time of the offence I felt very safe driving on an almost empty dual carriageway (just me and the unmarked BMW) in good weather conditions and I even slowed down at the roundabouts 

By the way and I know this is tempting fate but my licence is currently clean and my last points expired in September last year. I have learned my lesson and won't say I never knowingly exceed the speed limits but as above I risk assess the whole situation and drive accordingly and safely even if it means driving at 20mph below the limit. I'm always a little more wary on motorways as you need eyes in the back of your head on those!

[port perran]

In Bob's original post today he asked for any tips on how to drive within the speed limit.
This is, of course, a hugeLy complex and controversial subject and I could write pages and pages but I'll attempt to offer some simple guidance without getting into the pros and cons of individual prevailing limits and the reasons for them.

Maybe an example is a good place to start.

Before retirement, one of my roles was to teach on both speed and driver awareness courses. Typically attendees on driver awareness courses had been the contributory cause in an accident. If possible, I would try to return to the scene of the accident and ask my client to talk me through what happened. Frequently excessive speed was a major factor.

On this occasion the accident had occurred on a country road only a few miles away from where I live. Asking the client about the accident, the reply was something along the lines of, " There was nothing I could do, I came around the bend and the other car was crossing my path (it was a crossroads). I couldn't avoid hitting him".
On further investigation, my client was travelling at " no more than 50 on a national speed limit road so well within the limit" (his words). It was a road he uses virtually every day and actually a 30 limit  has applied for many years).

We approached the location of the accident from a main road about a mile from the scene. My comments to my client, as we drove were :

Did you see the large 30 mph limit sign immediately after we turned off the main road?
Were you aware of the 4 smaller 30mph repeater signs between the main road and the scene of the accident.
The road is VERY bendy did you see the long white lines in the centre of the road?
Did you see the crossroads sign just before  the scene of the accident?

The answer to all four was No and the client was amazed to learn that the road had a 30 limit and had done for many, many years.

This scenario was very typical but underlines the point that as drivers we frequently don't act on the information supplied to us. In effect, "reading the road".

So, in very much simplified format, I'll lay out the ground rules re speed limits.

National Speed Limit (large white sign with diagonal black bar) is 60mph or 70 mph on dual carriageways.

Dual carriageways can be identified by having some form of central reservation separating traffic going in either directions. Two lanes in each direction but without any form of central reservation is NOT deemed a dual carriageway.

At the start of any section of road deemed to be of National Limit standard the large white sign with black band will be displayed on both sides of the road. In normal circumstances there will be no repeater signs displayed.

30mph limits, in very general terms, apply in residential area where there are street lights (don't worry about the red herring as to how far apart they are) or on narrow twisty roads with lots of incoming junctions.
For the residential version of the 30 limit there will be a large 30mph sign at the start of the speed limit area but no small repeater signs.
In country areas where the limit is 30mph and where no street lighting is present, the start of the limit will be signified by the large 30 sign followed by smaller repeater signs at regular intervals (usually at least every quarter mile).

As I said earlier the national limit is 60 on single carriageway roads and 70 on dual carriageways. Hence, where a single carriageway becomes a dual carriageway there will be no additional signage (60 becomes 70 or vice versa at the end of the dual carriageway).
If at any point the limit on the dual carriageway is reduced, say to 60 or 50 or even 30, there will be a large sign signifying the lower limit plus regular repeaters reinforcing that lower limit.



So.....that leaves ordinary roads, be it in town or country where the limit is, say 40 or 50mph or even 20mph. In any of these scenarios the start of the limit will be indicated by a large 40 or 50 or 20 sign followed by regular repeaters. An exception is that in some 20 zones where there is ample street furniture (eg humps or chicanes) there is deemed no need for repeater signs.

That then is  speed limits in short. It's only a guide and I fully realise that there are many instances where signage is non existent, obscured, poorly placed or defaced or where there are inaccuracies. I wouldn't want to comment on individual local scenarios.

So to return to our friend on the driver improvement course. In addition to missing the speed limit signs, he also, missed the crossroads warning sign and the longer than usual white central line.
Again, in a nutshell, the longer the white line, the greater the danger.
Next time you are on a dual carriageway or motorway, have a look at the white line between the lanes at a junction or on the approach to a lay by. The line will get longer as these are deemed to be high risk areas.

So.....that is a very potted version of what is a very complex subject. Hopefully it does, in some ways help to answer Bob's original question.
And do remember, as was stated elsewhere, the limit is a maximum speed, not a target. There will be many situations where speed should be substantially lower.

Phew......well you did ask.

Martin

I shall now get on my hard hat and sit in a darkened room well away from the forum. 
Actually, I'll be watching the footie at 5-00.

[gavin_t]

Always provides an interesting discussion this and good to see some information and input from someone on the other side of it with a professional background like @port perran

I feel my personal opinion and belief is that people not paying attention and driving standards are the biggest hazard on the roads now days. Not sure if its the modern mind set or just how safe and secure modern cars make people feel. Things have certainly got worse though in my opinion. Lack of lane discipline, no use of mirrors and just general lack situational of awareness.
With regards to speed it is amazing how people treat the signs as a minimum target. Country lane near us is only just wide enough for a car but is national limit. Wouldn't dream of doing more then 30 down it personally as it is mostly blind. People still try and achieve 60 down it though and seem to regularly end up inspecting the hedge also 

No saint myself. Got 3 points and a stern telling off from a Policeman when I had just passed my test many moons ago when I was 17. Was doing 45 in a 30. Stupid thing to do but I was young and Naïve at the time. Was a saint from then on as your not allowed more then 6 points in your first two years of driving  Squeaky clean license since then though 
Only naughtiness since was 55kph in a 50kph in France last year coming into Calais. Got a letter from the French demanding some Euros 

Now days I get all of my speedy driving out of my system about once a month on a track day if my wallet and work calendar allow. Good for practising car control and also a good reminder of how much space is needed when you do run out of talent 
Despite having a sporty car I very much just bumble along on the roads now days keeping out the way of the idiots driving with their eyes closed....

[Bealman]

All I can add to this discussion is that on the three times I've hired a car and driven on British motorways in the last ten years, most trucks and others seem to be well over the speed limit!

Scary.

I never saw one single patrol car, either.

[The Q]

You don't need two lanes in each direction to be a dual carriage way!!

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.757506,1.386281,3a,64.7y,146.61h,87.21t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sHPOKub0bqxAUxfC2i9mc8g!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

yep 70 limit but you'd be daft to do more than 40

[port perran]

You don't need two lanes in each direction to be a dual carriage way!!

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.757506,1.386281,3a,64.7y,146.61h,87.21t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sHPOKub0bqxAUxfC2i9mc8g!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

yep 70 limit but you'd be daft to do more than 40

Sorry, can't get that link to work I'm afraid

[Trainfish]

You don't need two lanes in each direction to be a dual carriage way!!

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.757506,1.386281,3a,64.7y,146.61h,87.21t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sHPOKub0bqxAUxfC2i9mc8g!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

yep 70 limit but you'd be daft to do more than 40

Sorry, can't get that link to work I'm afraid

Try this link instead

[The Q]

You don't need two lanes in each direction to be a dual carriage way!!

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.757506,1.386281,3a,64.7y,146.61h,87.21t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sHPOKub0bqxAUxfC2i9mc8g!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

yep 70 limit but you'd be daft to do more than 40

Sorry, can't get that link to work I'm afraid

Try this link instead

thanks, it's strange both links work on this computer..

[Trainfish]

And just to confirm that it is in fact a dual carriageway this is the view a hundred yards or so before you get to it

[guest311]

I guess I must either be a very good driver, or a very lucky one.

got my licence when I was 21, and it still has had no points on it.

only three 'contacts' with police,

one when driving a Volvo F7 6 legger with trailer on a dual carriageway at j50 mph, had a Rover SDi pull alongside, the passenger wag his finger at me, and then disappear into the distance.

one when I'd just got a Land Rover 110 V8, done all the servicing etc, and took it out for a run on the A23 in the evening to see how she handled.....
came over the brow of a hill at indicated 98mph and saw plod on the ramp by a bridge

eased off but he came out after me and hit the blues, I hit the hazards on and off, and pulled into the next laybye.
'evening sir, any idea why I've stopped you ?'
'yes officer, I was speeding'
'you admit it ? what speed do you think you were doing ?'
'my speedo said 98 mph, but with the aerodynamics of a brick I think it was probably slightly less than that'
'we didn't clock you, but as you came past you were certainly doing well over 70, but by the time we caught you up you were doing 75mph'
he asked how long I'd had the vehicle, and I explained I'd only just got it, serviced it, and had come out at the quiet period after the rush hour to see how she handled, how she braked and cornered at speed and so on, so that I knew any quirks in handling / braking'
'licence please'
you can't really complain when you are caught can you, so I handed it over and kept quiet.
'you've had this a few years, see you've got PSV and HGV1, no points, would be a pity to spoil it wouldn't it?'
'yes officer'
'I am not going to see you driving at over 70 mph on my dual carriage way again, am I ?'
'no'
passed my licence back.
'drive safely'


result not the same for a guy I worked with who got stopped for a tail light out ..

'haven't you got anything better to do ?'

yes they had.....

even did him for indicators flashing at the wrong rate 
and a bald spare tyre 

plods are human, treat them with respect, and you may be surprised at how they treat you.

of course there are always the sons of unmarried parents...

stopped on A40 in a RAF artic in the 70s, passed a laybye with plodmobile in it, who pulled out behind me...
checked .. I'm doing 40mph
he speeds past, hits the blues, police stop sign, and brakes 
managed to stop about 12 inches off his back bumper as he leaps out, comes to my cab and says
'your nicked'

'what for ?'

'you are displaying a different number at the rear of the vehicle than at the front'
'that's right'
'you admit it'
'yes, the clue is the funny number plate, the blue paint, and the roundels on the front and rear of the vehicle. it is an RAF vehicle, and military trailers and semitrailers have their own numbers.'
plod is not happy.
'check with your control, they will confirm it's right'
huff, puff, gets on talking broach, tries to argue, comes back to me.
'I'm going to search your vehicle'
'you are not. this is a military vehicle with a military load. if you want to check it, you need to contact you control, who will contact a senior officer, who will contact my station commander, who will send an officer to be present if he feels you have a reason to search the vehicle. if you try to search the vehicle otherwise, I'll deck you.'
more talking on broach....
'you can go'
followed me all the way back to Brize, where I had a word with the guards on the gate, and he ended up looking down a couple of gun barrels.

you always get the odd cretin, unfortunately, and they just won't listen, or learn.

so licence in'67, now '20, and still nil points. 

[dannyboy]

even did him for indicators flashing at the wrong rate 

That reminds me of my very first day on the beat on my own. I had walked out of the station a matter of a few hundred yards when I was stopped by an old man, (probably younger than I am now  ). He asked me how quick car indicators had to flash - what!?! I thinks to myself, "Flippin' 'eck, they test you". So thinking quick, trying to picture an indicator, I said something to the effect of, "Yes Sir, a minimum of 30 and maximum of 60 times a minute".  He then told me that he was setting a pub quiz so had been to the library and the timings were actually a minimum of 60 and a maximum of 120 times a minute.  I have counted a few indicator flashes in my time.