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Author Topic: Operations Info - 50s/60s German branchlines  (Read 396 times)

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Offline pete_h

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Operations Info - 50s/60s German branchlines
« on: August 05, 2020, 12:18:51 PM »
Hi there,

  I'm new here, and currently trying to design my layout, for which I will start a thread.. soon. What I am trying to do is design something with operational interest, but also realistic operations. So can anyone recommend any english language books on the subject of german branchlines? Must of my locos (by chance I think) are DR, but I have a a KPEV goods set from Fleishman that I need to convert to DCC one day...

  Specific questions, which might also apply to British outline too...

  Were there trains consisting of both coaching stock and goods?
  If so, how were the arriving wagons detached and departing attached? By the loco hauling, or by a shunter stationed there (e.g. a Kof?)
  If a through station, I guess it depends on the destination of the outgoing goods as to whether the wagons would be attached on the down or up direction?
  Is there a German equivalent of an auto coach, or would tank engines just run around?
  Is there a reference that shows typical consists?

  Lastly, I'd like a Kof, but would it be totally impossible to fit decoder? (I do have a ct dcs67z....)

Thanks!

Pete

Offline ntpntpntp

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Re: Operations Info - 50s/60s German branchlines
« Reply #1 on: August 05, 2020, 12:27:57 PM »
Hi Pete!

I'm not an expert on prototypical operations so cannot really advise on that aspect.  The German Railway Society might be able to help?

https://grs-uk.org/

Minitrix have sold factory fitted DCC Köf IIs in the past, I have one somewhere.  I don't run DCC in N so it doesn't come out much.  It wouldn't surprise me if Arnold have done the same with their Köf II and Köf III models.  There certainly have been home-brew decoder fittings to these little beasts  :)

Minitrix 12888 was a DCC fitted model
https://www.trix.de/en/products/details/article/12288/1777/

The one I have is 12579
https://www.trix.de/en/products/details/article/12579/
« Last Edit: August 05, 2020, 12:41:27 PM by ntpntpntp »
Nick.   2016 celebrating the 20th anniversary of "Königshafen" exhibition layout!
https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=50050.0

Offline BlythPower

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Re: Operations Info - 50s/60s German branchlines
« Reply #2 on: August 05, 2020, 01:09:04 PM »
See the ninth picture on http://www.eisenbahn-in-hemer.de/html/hemer-menden.html for an example of a mixed passenger/goods train (albeit in the 80s).

The auto coach equivalent is a 'Silberling' or 'Mitteleinstiegswagen' driving coach. For the Silberling, you'd want the sort with a gangwayed cab end, not the later full width cab version. Search for 'Wendezug' on https://eisenbahnstiftung.de/bildergalerie for examples with steam, diesel and electric locos at the rear.

Offline pete_h

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Re: Operations Info - 50s/60s German branchlines
« Reply #3 on: August 05, 2020, 01:31:19 PM »
Thanks both! Perhaps I should spend some time learning German, although google translate is pretty good most of the time!

Offline ntpntpntp

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Re: Operations Info - 50s/60s German branchlines
« Reply #4 on: August 05, 2020, 01:38:25 PM »
The auto coach equivalent is a 'Silberling' or 'Mitteleinstiegswagen' driving coach. For the Silberling, you'd want the sort with a gangwayed cab end, not the later full width cab version.
... which was available way back in the early 70s from Röwa  (I have one).   I'm not sure if it was taken up by Minitrix, I don't recall ever seeing a Minitrix version?



Nick.   2016 celebrating the 20th anniversary of "Königshafen" exhibition layout!
https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=50050.0

Online GScaleBruce

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Re: Operations Info - 50s/60s German branchlines
« Reply #5 on: August 05, 2020, 01:55:59 PM »
  Were there trains consisting of both coaching stock and goods?
  If so, how were the arriving wagons detached and departing attached? By the loco hauling, or by a shunter stationed there (e.g. a Kof?)
  If a through station, I guess it depends on the destination of the outgoing goods as to whether the wagons would be attached on the down or up direction?
  Is there a German equivalent of an auto coach, or would tank engines just run around?
  Is there a reference that shows typical consists?

  Lastly, I'd like a Kof, but would it be totally impossible to fit decoder? (I do have a ct dcs67z....)

Hi Pete

Mixed trains did indeed operate. Details vary between Germany, Austria and Switzerland, so I'll stick mainly to German practice. Historically described as GmP (goods train with passenger accommodation), sometimes as PmG (you can guess that one), in Austria simply as G for mixed train, these designations disappeared over time. In Austria, the use of G ended with the Anschluss in 1938, after which the German usage of GmP was used until 1969. In West Germany (DB), the GmP usage disappeared when local goods traffic ceased and mixed trains were described with the normal passenger P or N designations. Most GmP trains disappeared from the timetable after the mid 1950s, but they continued on secondary lines until the 1980s. Such trains lasted longer on the former DDR area, with the very last GmP operating between Gnoien and Teterow in 1995 (under DB AG). Source: NBahn Magazin, 6/2015, abridged (and hopefully correctly understood...).

Not sure about the shunting, I assume generally the train engine would do the necessary.

The NBahn article suggests the train composition order was normally loco - coaches - goods wagons, which would seem necessary given that goods wagons would not, in general (there are of course exceptions), be able to convey steam or electric train heating.

Push pull trains were common in Germany, including operation with steam engines such as the BR 78 and BR 38.10, and standard practice with many types of diesel and electric locomotives. There are a number of different control coaches including Silberling and centre entrance coaches.

The NBahn magazine has a two page picture of mixed train formations; pm me directly if you would like to know more.

If you fancy a Köf, hold your horses; Liliput are supposed to be bringing out a DCC Köf with working couplings. The older Arnold Köf is probably too small/full for a decoder...
« Last Edit: August 05, 2020, 02:51:16 PM by GScaleBruce »
Bruce
My layout - Steinheim am Main My BR themed layout planning thread - Peterhampton Junction

Offline BlythPower

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Re: Operations Info - 50s/60s German branchlines
« Reply #6 on: August 05, 2020, 02:19:45 PM »
The auto coach equivalent is a 'Silberling' or 'Mitteleinstiegswagen' driving coach. For the Silberling, you'd want the sort with a gangwayed cab end, not the later full width cab version.
... which was available way back in the early 70s from Röwa  (I have one).   I'm not sure if it was taken up by Minitrix, I don't recall ever seeing a Minitrix version?




I've an ep. IV Minitrix version (product code 51 3040 00 - later versions as 13040). I think the more recent versions have the full width cab.

Edit: updated ep. III version is product code 15942.  :thumbsup:
« Last Edit: August 05, 2020, 02:28:13 PM by BlythPower »

Offline ntpntpntp

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Re: Operations Info - 50s/60s German branchlines
« Reply #7 on: August 05, 2020, 02:31:15 PM »
Röwa


Quote from: blythPower
Minitrix 13040

Yep you can see the family history  :)


Nick.   2016 celebrating the 20th anniversary of "Königshafen" exhibition layout!
https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=50050.0

Offline pete_h

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Re: Operations Info - 50s/60s German branchlines
« Reply #8 on: August 05, 2020, 10:30:13 PM »
A Kof with working couplings would be awesome! I have the Lenz O gauge one, but not really got the space to build a layout for it, although I've resisted selling it and the rolling stock, and the class 64.... such nice models!

Offline Hiawatha

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Re: Operations Info - 50s/60s German branchlines
« Reply #9 on: August 06, 2020, 11:58:42 AM »
  Were there trains consisting of both coaching stock and goods?
  If so, how were the arriving wagons detached and departing attached? By the loco hauling, or by a shunter stationed there (e.g. a Kof?)
Not much to add to what Bruce has already said about PmG/GmP but I think that, depending on location, both were possible. A smaller station might not have its own shunter, so more likely to have the train locomotive shunting – or a private engine from e.g. a paper mill having the permission to move the just uncoupled wagons from the line into their own spur.

Quote
  If a through station, I guess it depends on the destination of the outgoing goods as to whether the wagons would be attached on the down or up direction?
I think it’s more probable that wagons were detached down the branchline and attached back in the up direction.

Quote
  Is there a German equivalent of an auto coach, or would tank engines just run around?
  Is there a reference that shows typical consists?
There were only a few steam locomotives suitable for push–pull trains. The DB converted some BR 38 (with tub tender), 23, 64, 65 and 78 (all available from Fleischmann). In push–pull service the tender locos were attached to the train with the tender side while the tank locos usually ran bunker first.
In addition to “Silberlinge” there were also green “Mitteleinstiegswagen” (central-entrance coaches) with control cab (and also the older “Thunderboxes” but there is no RTR N-scale version) that were used with steam locos.
The last Arnold version was HN4061 (sold out but pictured here). This can also be used in combination with intermediate Silberling or Umbauwagen coaches. Here a few consists:
https://www.dhuenntalbahn.de/zugbildung/br-23-wendezuege/
https://www.dhuenntalbahn.de/zugbildung/br-65-wendezuege/
https://www.dhuenntalbahn.de/zugbildung/br-78-wendezuege/
Peter

Offline ntpntpntp

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Re: Operations Info - 50s/60s German branchlines
« Reply #10 on: August 06, 2020, 02:03:40 PM »
Nick.   2016 celebrating the 20th anniversary of "Königshafen" exhibition layout!
https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=50050.0

Offline pete_h

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Re: Operations Info - 50s/60s German branchlines
« Reply #11 on: August 06, 2020, 02:20:43 PM »
Thanks for all the info - really interesting.

What I noticed was that the tank engines ran 'bunker first' - which surprised me. I guess the controlling equipment is fitted to the front?

Offline Hiawatha

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Re: Operations Info - 50s/60s German branchlines
« Reply #12 on: August 06, 2020, 03:49:36 PM »
Yes, only one set of controls in most tank engines (streamlined BR 61 were an exception).

I think this was done so that the fireman in the pushing loco could also have some forward vision. Otherwise the coach directly in front of the cab would completely block the view at signals.
Peter

Offline AlexanderJesse

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Re: Operations Info - 50s/60s German branchlines
« Reply #13 on: August 06, 2020, 04:11:01 PM »
GmP / PmG the difference according to the Drehscheibe-online Forum is
Quote
( https://www.drehscheibe-online.de/foren/read.php?3,3284880,3284931 ) PmG = Personenzug mit Güterbeförderung

Das bedeutet das der Hauptzweck dieses Zuges die Personenbeförderung ist. Rangierarbeiten dürften eigentlich die Ausnahme sein. Güterwagen laufen meist mit bis zum Endpunkt.



GmP = Güterzug mit Personenbeförderung

Das bedeutet das der Hauptzweck des Zuges die Güterbeförderung ist. Passagiere mussten sehr viel Zeit mitbringen um unterwegs bei den Rangierarbeiten zuzusehen. Unter Umständen waren die Fahrzeiten heftig lang. Wenn es aber auf der Strecke keine anderen Züge gab hat das niemanden gestört.
It depends on the Priority. The PmG is a passenger train, its priorit is the distribution of passengers. Usually at the end where the goods wagons. In stations with a shunter engine, the last wagon could be uncoupled, else the goods wagons had to run to terminal station.
With the GmP, passengers had to have patience, because shunting of the trains loco was allowed... its prio was the distribution of the goods...

Tank in front or back? Mostly depended on the geography as most locos had to run uphill with the chimney in front, else the missing water could cause overheating (hope you understand even though I am missing some english specialized vocabulary). In the flatlands, it depended on you the train started. and whether turntables were available at the terminal stations. But mostly the loco would run around the train if possible. Even big tender locos would now and then run tender first, if the turntable was already dismantled. Most of them with reduced speed (max 50 km/h instead of 120 km/h) but some were built to run as fast backward as forward.

Pushing loco was also done without control cabs or with unmodified locos. An additional driver would then be stationed on the first wagon/coach and communicate with the driver in the loco using any means of signals available. As you can imagine, not a thing to do on a mainline... but frequent on small branchlines.
=================
have a disney day
vapour is just water and therefor clean

Offline BlythPower

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Re: Operations Info - 50s/60s German branchlines
« Reply #14 on: August 06, 2020, 05:43:49 PM »
Must admit I wasn't aware Fleischmann offer the Mitteleinsteigswagen as Steuerwagen

https://www.haertle.de/Modelleisenbahn/Spur+N/Personenwagen+Spur+N/FLEISCHMANN+866487+Mitteleinstiegs+Steuerwagen+2+Kl+BDymf+456+DB+Spur+N.html


I've never seen a photo of one in Blue/Beige that still has the driving cab in place. And I've looked very hard all over the internet to find one. I've a strong feeling that the repaint and cab decommission were done together. The good news for the OP is that Fleischmann have done it in green a couple of times. There was even one in the Anoraks Anonymous bargain box for a fiver unboxed at last year's TINGS. Wish I'd got it now..
« Last Edit: August 06, 2020, 05:44:56 PM by BlythPower »

 

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