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Author Topic: Caroline saloon - expressions of interest sought  (Read 1687 times)

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Offline Arrachogaidh

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Re: Caroline saloon - expressions of interest sought
« Reply #30 on: July 27, 2020, 01:04:38 AM »
More interested in the most recent livery under Network Rail. Caroline was sent all over the network even reaching Inverness. A model for all Regions, not only SR.
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Offline Red Onion

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Re: Caroline saloon - expressions of interest sought
« Reply #31 on: July 30, 2020, 10:43:40 PM »
I weakened this evening and placed an EoI.  Primarily interested in the latest green livery but a secondary interest in the blue and grey, not as keen on the NSE.

Saw a photo of it running with a Colas 37 which sold it for me, think it’ll look good with mine but plenty of other options to run it with.

Offline 8A Rail

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Re: Caroline saloon - expressions of interest sought
« Reply #32 on: July 31, 2020, 11:50:03 PM »
I have only just seen this thread, so my apologies.

Just love the idea of the coach especially as it has appeared over the last few years as travels around the country. Great on a layout that is for sure and yes I would love one! BUT and it is a BUT, I understand the premium price being quoted as thinking there would be only a few sales. I think this may be underestimated to be honest! If Dapol or Bachmann were interested in doing one, even at approx 250 / 500 (depending on liveries), it would be popular, the cost would come down to under £100  and still be sold out I reckon. 

However, what do I really know as I don't, that I accept. For me personally, the premium price of £125 / £150 is just too much for a 'coach' (although unique). There are few people on this thread already who have indicated they would like one but the high price puts them off. Good luck in your venture and someone wants to buy me a Green one for my birthday, then I will happily accept it and you be my friend for life!  ;D
Doug (8A Rail)
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Offline red_death

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Re: Caroline saloon - expressions of interest sought
« Reply #33 on: August 01, 2020, 12:11:51 AM »
Sorry but there is zero possibility that someone could produce a RTR injection moulded coach selling 250-500 for less than £100! 500 is typically Farish’s minimum per livery with a minimum run typically of 3000!

Even at 500 unit sales once you knock off VAT that leaves you with just under £42k to cover tooling and production costs. Good luck with that!




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Re: Caroline saloon - expressions of interest sought
« Reply #34 on: August 01, 2020, 07:56:03 AM »
Have Dapol or Farish ever done a single item run of 250?! I‘ll wager if they did it would be markedly more expensive than Revolution, not cheaper.

Offline Steven B

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Re: Caroline saloon - expressions of interest sought
« Reply #35 on: August 01, 2020, 08:22:54 AM »
Dapol did some short runs of EWS Class 66s. They produced multiple running numbers on an otherwise identical base livery.

To reduce the cost of Caroline Revolution would have to reduce the level of detail, remove lighting etc. This is obviously something they don't want to do otherwise they'd have launched with a lower specification.




Steven B

Offline Ben A

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Re: Caroline saloon - expressions of interest sought
« Reply #36 on: August 01, 2020, 08:43:39 AM »

Hello all,

Because Caroline has working head and tail lamps (plus working saloon interior lights) and usually leads or follows a locomotive it might be helpful to regard Caroline as more like a complete train in a box rather than just a coach.

And also we cannot emphasise enough that any comparison between model features is irrelevant when set against production quantities.

The difference between selling 500 or 5000 has a bigger impact on the price than anything.

Given the likely sales metrics, could we produce Caroline for around £80?  Possibly, but it would more than likely be a clear printed shell, with no difference in detail to reflect different eras, fairly basic moulded underframe, no interior and no lights.  Personally I think that is far worse value than what we are proposing.

Cheers

Ben A.



Offline woodbury22uk

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Re: Caroline saloon - expressions of interest sought
« Reply #37 on: August 01, 2020, 08:55:10 AM »
Sorry but there is zero possibility that someone could produce a RTR injection moulded coach selling 250-500 for less than £100! 500 is typically Farish’s minimum per livery with a minimum run typically of 3000!

Even at 500 unit sales once you knock off VAT that leaves you with just under £42k to cover tooling and production costs. Good luck with that!

If you look to the near continent the price per coach for run of the mill newly tooled coaches produced in thousands is now between 45 and 90 euros. I am using Piko (54 euros for the third run of couchettes), REE ( 47.50 for UIC Y coaches), LSModels (83 euros for Pullman cars). Minitrix (45 euros for UIC Y). You can get a Fleischmann Eurofima for about 36 euros, based on 1980s Roco tooling used already for over a quarter of a million coaches!

Given that Caroline is a one off with three liveries and loads of features then the indicative price is a bargain. All academic now till Mike and Ben have mulled over the EOIs.
Mike

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Online njee20

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Re: Caroline saloon - expressions of interest sought
« Reply #38 on: August 01, 2020, 09:16:41 AM »
Dapol did some short runs of EWS Class 66s. They produced multiple running numbers on an otherwise identical base livery.

To reduce the cost of Caroline Revolution would have to reduce the level of detail, remove lighting etc. This is obviously something they don't want to do otherwise they'd have launched with a lower specification.


I was thinking of a totally unique tool, rather than just different decoration. Pretty sure they've not. Obviously decoration is a comparatively small part of the cost once you've tooled the model.

Offline Roy L S

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Re: Caroline saloon - expressions of interest sought
« Reply #39 on: August 01, 2020, 10:29:15 AM »
I simply don't think it fits with RevolutioN's USP (which is to produce products of high quality and fidelity and push boundaries) to regress and produce a lower spec "Caroline" without interior or lights and some generic parts. It would make it less "special" than the NGS inspection saloon which already has some of those features.

The spec proposed is effectively a loco without a motor and drivetrain but with a detailed interior and personally I would view it in that context were I looking at pricing/price comparisons.

Roy

Offline 8A Rail

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Re: Caroline saloon - expressions of interest sought
« Reply #40 on: August 01, 2020, 11:45:56 AM »
Sorry but there is zero possibility that someone could produce a RTR injection moulded coach selling 250-500 for less than £100! 500 is typically Farish’s minimum per livery with a minimum run typically of 3000!
Even at 500 unit sales once you knock off VAT that leaves you with just under £42k to cover tooling and production costs. Good luck with that!
I did say 'However, what do I really know as I don't, that I accept' but to finish your comment with 'Good luck with that' I think was uncalled for sadly.

May be I should of said 2500/5000 as I don't have any idea what quantities that Dapol / Bachmann produce for each model and with that I don't expect the same detail in consequence of the model you are proposing. My N gauge modelling is just a secondary pastime for me so every detail is not so critical or important to me (and other modellers too), just creating a layout to the best of ability and ultimately to 'play' with it before I enter the wooden box.

As I've said previously, sincere good wishes with your project and I am sure it will be a success.

Doug (8A Rail)
My website: http://www.8arail.uk
New book out now 'Merseyside Traction' See:- https://www.amberley-books.com/merseyside-traction.html
Recent Images @http://www.flickr.com/photos/8arail/

Offline Steven B

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Re: Caroline saloon - expressions of interest sought
« Reply #41 on: August 01, 2020, 12:29:43 PM »
Most Farish and Dapol models are produced in batches of 1000.

Steven B

Offline red_death

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Re: Caroline saloon - expressions of interest sought
« Reply #42 on: August 01, 2020, 12:40:07 PM »
Sorry if you were offended by my comment. The problem is that unless people are given realistic information then we all risk setting false expectations of what is possible.

A few people have said why not reduce the detail/feature and therefore the price - Ben has mentioned some of the reasons but there are two crucial reasons why it doesn’t generally work like that. The bulk of the cost for a low run model is the tooling - including detail on new tooling is not much different to tooling up the same form in a less detailed manner ie tooling is partly a function of the amount of metal you need and the size/shape of the model. Which leads onto the second problem ie that even if you simplify tooling that is still only part of the costs so the reduced detail might only lead to a relatively small price decrease.

So you end up with a poorer model for not much lower price - for the people who thought it was too expensive you might not have made it cheap enough for them (it is never going to be even a £50 coach) and if you accept that there are few options to make the model substantially cheaper then surely it is better to give people as good a model as possible.

Cheers Mike



Offline red_death

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Re: Caroline saloon - expressions of interest sought
« Reply #43 on: August 01, 2020, 12:42:09 PM »
Most Farish and Dapol models are produced in batches of 1000.

Steven B

Farish unpowered models are minimum of 3000 for new tooling.

Dapol is slightly lower IIRC.

Batch size after initial runs may well be lower but is not really relevant to a one off model that you’re unlikely to repeat runs.

Cheers Mike



Offline RailGooner

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Re: Caroline saloon - expressions of interest sought
« Reply #44 on: August 01, 2020, 02:40:42 PM »
I'm very interested in, but will not be buying, a Caroline. I can't have everything I want and there are many more models (most of them from RevolutioN,) that I want more.

For what's being proposed I think the price is reasonable. A maxim I always try to follow is "if a job's worth doing it's worth doing well". Judging from RevolutioN's output to date, Ben and Mike follow that maxim too. I'm a little bit sorry that I can't have a Caroline, but I'm very happy that if this model of Caroline receives enough support it will be a suberb model.
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