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Author Topic: T, L or Oblong? Third time's a charm...  (Read 447 times)

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Offline Ted

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T, L or Oblong? Third time's a charm...
« on: February 21, 2020, 04:58:27 PM »
Hugely inspired by the amazing Shirebrook layout, I'm looking at a version myself for a spare bedroom.

I think I'm happy going 10ft wide down the back wall, and whilst there's room for 12ft or so, I think it needs some breathing room/walk round.

This is by no means finished, I'm just throwing ideas out here for feedback.

I am certainly no pro at this, so I'm sure there are many mistakes. For example I can't get the curve to work in the mainline area so currently it's straight. I'm sure if you gave me the flexitrack I could do it by hand.

I also have an L and oblong version which I'll share.

A few comments around this:

- I don't want a big loop
- I want to run A-to-B (or C) like real trains would
- Trains would come and go off scene
- I want to be able to run long freight such MGR coal trains
- Max size ~20 wagons which I think is around 1.3metres long
- Helix A and B are not connected, they would both go to their own fiddle yards
- 2 independent fiddle yards/storage on a second layer below
- I've made a mess of the small station, that layout doesn't look right




Edit: of course, I'm looking for thoughts and feedback. I might not be using the space well at all!
« Last Edit: February 21, 2020, 05:01:08 PM by Ted »

Offline NGS-PO

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Re: T, L or Oblong? Third time's a charm...
« Reply #1 on: February 21, 2020, 05:18:06 PM »
What is the radii of the helices ? Also what is the drop per revolution of the helices?

Best

Scott
(PLEASE NOTE: Unless where obviously posting on behalf of the NGS, all posts and views are my own and not connected/endorsed by the Society.)

Anxiety is a lot like a toddler. It never stops talking, tells you youíre wrong about everything, and wakes you up at 3am.

I get nervous about just about everything. Sometimes I literally donít know why Iím anxious. I just am and no-one seems to understand that.

Offline Ted

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Re: T, L or Oblong? Third time's a charm...
« Reply #2 on: February 21, 2020, 05:25:51 PM »
What is the radii of the helices ? Also what is the drop per revolution of the helices?

Best

Scott

2nd degree down, 3rd degree up. 2% or just under would be the planned gradient, dropping down a total of 40cm.

I think that would require 8-9 loops on each helix.

This would significantly lengthen the track and once a train leaves the scenic area, it would be some time before it could return. I like that! There would be a loop after the helix of course, to get back on.

Offline NGS-PO

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Re: T, L or Oblong? Third time's a charm...
« Reply #3 on: February 21, 2020, 06:29:07 PM »
Thanks. Iím guessing you mean 2nd and third radius? Iím not sure what that is but regardless, my advice would be to build one of the helices first, full height and test it with all expected trains and locomotive combinations.  Without wishing to be overly negative, based on my own testing, I think you might struggle to lift long trains at 2% on a helix.  The spiral has the effect of making the gradient steeper than 2% in real terms. 

I might be wrong, but better to find out now than after itís all been built...

Best

Scott.
(PLEASE NOTE: Unless where obviously posting on behalf of the NGS, all posts and views are my own and not connected/endorsed by the Society.)

Anxiety is a lot like a toddler. It never stops talking, tells you youíre wrong about everything, and wakes you up at 3am.

I get nervous about just about everything. Sometimes I literally donít know why Iím anxious. I just am and no-one seems to understand that.

Offline Ted

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Re: T, L or Oblong? Third time's a charm...
« Reply #4 on: February 21, 2020, 06:54:17 PM »
Thanks. Iím guessing you mean 2nd and third radius? Iím not sure what that is but regardless, my advice would be to build one of the helices first, full height and test it with all expected trains and locomotive combinations.  Without wishing to be overly negative, based on my own testing, I think you might struggle to lift long trains at 2% on a helix.  The spiral has the effect of making the gradient steeper than 2% in real terms. 

I might be wrong, but better to find out now than after itís all been built...

Best

Scott.

Yes 2nd and 3rd radius, so not too tight. You're absolutely right though, I need to buy a helix to test!

Offline Newportnobby

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Re: T, L or Oblong? Third time's a charm...
« Reply #5 on: February 21, 2020, 07:25:30 PM »
One of our helix kings @Maurits71 can advise on best gradient/curves for a helix as he has made a few of them

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Re: T, L or Oblong? Third time's a charm...
« Reply #6 on: February 21, 2020, 11:02:29 PM »
As shallow and as big as absolutely possible.

Iím still not convinced you wonít have problems with that. 9 turns is a fair old stretch, and 2nd radius is pretty tight really.

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Re: T, L or Oblong? Third time's a charm...
« Reply #7 on: February 22, 2020, 08:49:02 AM »
As shallow and as big as absolutely possible.

Iím still not convinced you wonít have problems with that. 9 turns is a fair old stretch, and 2nd radius is pretty tight really.

Just to confirm, 2nd degree would be on the down loop, so the only potential issues there would be derailing - not hauling. 👍

I could just go for 3rd and 4th but didn't want the helix to be a monster. A guess a few inches more won't hurt (said the nun to the bishop)!

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Re: T, L or Oblong? Third time's a charm...
« Reply #8 on: February 22, 2020, 08:52:43 AM »
Yep, Iíd definitely do some testing early on to check youíll be able to run what you want, particularly as the design pivots on the helices.

Offline NGS-PO

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Re: T, L or Oblong? Third time's a charm...
« Reply #9 on: February 22, 2020, 09:28:48 AM »
Itís quite surprising at times so Iíd say itís essential you try it before committing further.

When I was testing with Farish and Dapol 6 and 4 axle diesels, 1% grade with 12 MK1s was no problem, but 2% started to pose some problems, and that was on a straight test grade.  Steam outline was much worse, but thatís not entirely relevant for you I suggest.

The helix I built was, as you suggest, a bit of a monster with 18Ē climbing radius but with 24Ē long straight sections in between each end, so an oval helix, if youíll ignore the oxymoron. All at 1%. Overkill perhaps, and Iím not suggesting you go to such lengths, but itís worth future proofing. Revolution Trains 35T tankers, for instance, are weighty affairs, as are their TEAs more so than their Farish/Dapol equivalents, so just because youíre able to lift one set of wagons doesnít mean youíd be able to lift a future set.

I hope you view this as helpful advice and not non-constructive harping on, but youíll only get one chance to make the helices work for you (without major demolition in future) so all I say is intended to help.

For testing, I used the longest length beam I could get my hands on lifted one end progressively and tested with my longest/heaviest trains.

Best

Scott.
(PLEASE NOTE: Unless where obviously posting on behalf of the NGS, all posts and views are my own and not connected/endorsed by the Society.)

Anxiety is a lot like a toddler. It never stops talking, tells you youíre wrong about everything, and wakes you up at 3am.

I get nervous about just about everything. Sometimes I literally donít know why Iím anxious. I just am and no-one seems to understand that.

Offline Ted

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Re: T, L or Oblong? Third time's a charm...
« Reply #10 on: February 22, 2020, 10:09:34 AM »
I hope you view this as helpful advice and not non-constructive harping on, but youíll only get one chance to make the helices work for you (without major demolition in future) so all I say is intended to help.

Absolutely not! This is the kind of guidance I'm looking for, so thank you.

No steam engines here and I'm also very happy to double-head where needed (it looks good).

I'll get a helix ordered; I've found a company online that does them for ~£40 per 'loop' which seems okay for time and materials. However that does means around £400 for each helix.

Instead of committing to that much from the off, I'll buy 2-3 loops which will give me an idea of how well locos and rakes progress. Especially if I make things artificially harder for them by stopping-starting on the grade!

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Re: T, L or Oblong? Third time's a charm...
« Reply #11 on: March 02, 2020, 03:46:14 PM »
Duncan the creator of Shirebrook layout over on RMweb was kind enough to share his PDF plan with me.

Here's the front scenic section:



Each board is 4x2ft.

With that in mind I thought I could build 2 sections, and expand it in the future. To make it 'adaptable' I could attach a helix at either end, running a fiddle yard underneath.



Only snag I can see is the front siding won't be connected, so I can't use it until I expand in the future.

Would love feedback!

Offline Newportnobby

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Re: T, L or Oblong? Third time's a charm...
« Reply #12 on: March 02, 2020, 07:57:50 PM »
Looks interesting, although much less complicated without the station board and the double track junction at the LHS.

Offline Ted

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Re: T, L or Oblong? Third time's a charm...
« Reply #13 on: March 02, 2020, 08:33:24 PM »
Looks interesting, although much less complicated without the station board and the double track junction at the LHS.

It's a tough call because the far left board is interesting. But I'm far more interested in freight, so the TMD makes sense.

I do have room to have 12ft wide, but I'd have to remove one board whilst not using the layout, because I need access to a walk-in wardrobe on the back wall.

So I could start with 2 boards and expand to 3, then 4 (in another room or house).
« Last Edit: March 02, 2020, 08:40:27 PM by Ted »

Offline Newportnobby

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Re: T, L or Oblong? Third time's a charm...
« Reply #14 on: March 03, 2020, 10:02:10 AM »

So I could start with 2 boards and expand to 3, then 4 (in another room or house).

Attaboy! Now we're cooking with gas! Buying a new or another house for the layout?
I like your style, sirrah :D

 

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