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Author Topic: Carnforth Clone  (Read 1981 times)

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Offline Bartercode

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Re: Carnforth Clone
« Reply #15 on: April 09, 2020, 11:52:03 AM »
The slips appear to just be in the sidings though, with some access to the bay platforms? They’re an uncommon feature on running lines with anything other than very low running speeds these days.

Not sure about the sidings analysis ;)



The diamond on the left is on the running line from the up Furness platform to the main line. The scissors in the middle of the photo is on the down Furness platform line. The RH scissors is on the through loop behind the Furness platforms, so they are all on running lines and 2 are on tracks regularly used by passenger trains.

The photo is the south end of Carnforth, so there would be no access from there to the bay platform.

The layout at the south end has been modified a bit since that photo but trains using the Furness platforms still traverse a double slip at the south end of the platforms IIRC
« Last Edit: April 09, 2020, 12:09:27 PM by Bartercode »

Offline njee20

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Re: Carnforth Clone
« Reply #16 on: April 09, 2020, 12:29:55 PM »
I don't know Carnforth at all, I just went by the Trasky schematic here

I can't see a scissor crossing, I see a diamond and two slips, running left to right. The running lines are the two left most I presume, which only have 'normal' turnouts?

Like I say, your layout/time/money etc. I'm going to handbuild track for my next layout FWIW, having dabbled with some PCB S&C on my past one (taken up following a house move), so I'm not coming at this from a point of total ignorance! In fact I've built 2m of Easitrac this morning, and it's very satisfying!

Online crewearpley40

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Re: Carnforth Clone
« Reply #17 on: April 09, 2020, 12:33:27 PM »
Thanks nick. Useful info from a railwayman point of view. I can't spot same things that you have pointed either
« Last Edit: April 09, 2020, 12:36:16 PM by crewearpley40 »

Offline Bartercode

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Re: Carnforth Clone
« Reply #18 on: April 09, 2020, 12:43:36 PM »
I don't know Carnforth at all, I just went by the Trasky schematic here

I can't see a scissor crossing, I see a diamond and two slips, running left to right. The running lines are the two left most I presume, which only have 'normal' turnouts?

I suspect there may be confusion as these realtime track diagrams only show a small section of the Furness line from the south into the platforms. I have looked at 2 others and they all show slightly different layouts. Not sure which is the most accurate! The bit I am modelling is off the Trasky diagram completely.

To help, here is the Trasky diagram (inverted) compared with a 1970s track plan. The area circled in red is the area I would be modelling. Hope that helps anyone not familiar with Carnforth



The three tracks at the bottom left of the Trasky diagram are all through tracks to Barrow or Leeds. The bit I would model is to the left of these 3 tracks, nothing to do with the main line at all.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2020, 12:59:20 PM by Bartercode, Reason: added info »

Offline joe cassidy

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Re: Carnforth Clone
« Reply #19 on: April 09, 2020, 04:29:57 PM »
You are probably already aware of this but there are detailed track/signalling plans in "An Historical Survey of Selected LMS Station volume 1" by R.Preston Hendry & R.Powell Hendry.

Best regards,


Joe

Offline joe cassidy

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Re: Carnforth Clone
« Reply #20 on: April 09, 2020, 04:43:17 PM »
An OO gauge layout "based on" Carnforth was Railway of the Month on pages 662 - 669 of the September 2011 issue of "Railway Modeller".

Offline Bartercode

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Re: Carnforth Clone
« Reply #21 on: April 10, 2020, 11:47:32 AM »
I have been doing more research into the layout at Carnforth. The bay line was only removed in 1980, but there was an intermediate stage between 1972 and 1980 when the connection over 2 diamond crossings from the bay to the Barrow line were removed. Unfortunately there are no dates on photos I have found to show when this happened.

However, my model was not intended to be the real Carnforth, but a clone based on the assumption that the old station remained and trains are still required to go from the Leeds line to the Barrow line with a reversal. The bay platform would still be required even today.

I could take my model back a bit in time to when the real genuine diamonds might still have existed (say 1970s or at a push 1980s) Even if I worry that I am going to have to face constant arguments about them not being realistic at every exhibition I go to.  :doh:
« Last Edit: April 10, 2020, 11:48:34 AM by Bartercode »

Offline Bartercode

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Re: Carnforth Clone
« Reply #22 on: April 10, 2020, 11:27:00 PM »
I found OS maps on a well known web site for 1980 and also for 1982. The former shows all the diamonds still in place at the north end of the Furness platforms. The latter only shows a curve from the Midland bay to the Leeds line. That suggests the diamonds probably all lasted at least until the late 1970s. The earlier map includes track changes that could have only recently happened (based on photographic evidence), so is not just an old map reprinted without alterations.

Offline Bartercode

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Re: Carnforth Clone
« Reply #23 on: April 11, 2020, 07:44:07 PM »
OK had a bit more time to consider alternatives for the junction. Here is the plan of how it once looked again, more or less to scale with 300mm squares in red...



Keeping our options restricted to what is physically possible on the real site and retaining the operational requirement of one bay and one bi-directional through platform, as if Carnforth was never rebuilt in the late 1930s.

Here, for example is if the Leeds line was singled for a short distance as was suggested above, but it still needs one diamond and the added complication of a single slip. Is a single slip on a running lined preferable to 2 diamonds???



Nothing else comes close to the possibility of eliminating diamonds and slips altogether. Given that there is a diamond and 2 double slips on running lines at the south end of the platforms of the real station in modern times, I still don't see why 3 diamonds at the north end in my original proposal are such a no-no.

I suppose I could eliminate the bay platform, but then in my scenario there would only be one platform left to serve all trains. Another alternative would be to cut out through trains from/to the 'Leeds' line altogether and require passengers to change trains. That would kill most of the operational interest.

I could always take up knitting or flower arranging...mind you I bet there is lots of controversy lurking under the surface with those hobbies too..... ;)

Online crewearpley40

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Re: Carnforth Clone
« Reply #24 on: April 11, 2020, 07:52:33 PM »
What space do you have to work with please

Offline jpendle

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Re: Carnforth Clone
« Reply #25 on: April 11, 2020, 07:56:10 PM »
Hi,

I have only just taken time to look at the real thing and have only just realised that the WCML isn't part of your plan and doesn't go through the present day station.

Given, then, that the station and everything past it is effectively a pair of branch lines then I think that diamonds forming a double junction for the Leeds and Barrow lines would be fine. There will be no fast running through the station or its environs and even a single slip would probably be OK.

Regards,

John P
Check out my layout thread.

Contemporary NW (Wigan Wallgate and North Western)

https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=39501.msg476247#msg476247

Offline Bartercode

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Re: Carnforth Clone
« Reply #26 on: April 11, 2020, 09:03:03 PM »
What space do you have to work with please

Hi. Many thanks for your interest. As much space as it takes, basically. I want to do things as close to the scale of the real thing as is reasonably possible - but I want to use as much Finetrax pointwork as possible - f/b on running lines and maybe bullhead in sidings. Messing around in Templot suggests that I will have to stretch the junctions a bit and flatten the curve on the Leeds line a little, but I am happy to do that if necessary.

In real scale the distance from the end of the station roof to the signal box is only about 2ft so space is not a big issue. I am happy to scratchbuild diamonds, slips etc if necessary.

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Re: Carnforth Clone
« Reply #27 on: April 11, 2020, 09:05:02 PM »
No I meant is the board 10 x 2 or other dimensions ?

Offline Bartercode

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Re: Carnforth Clone
« Reply #28 on: April 11, 2020, 09:05:23 PM »
Hi,

I have only just taken time to look at the real thing and have only just realised that the WCML isn't part of your plan and doesn't go through the present day station.

Given, then, that the station and everything past it is effectively a pair of branch lines then I think that diamonds forming a double junction for the Leeds and Barrow lines would be fine. There will be no fast running through the station or its environs and even a single slip would probably be OK.

Regards,

John P

OK fair enough  :thumbsup:

TBH my idea is very quirky and idiosyncratic, so hardly surprising if even sane and intelligent people don't get it straight away ;)

Offline Bartercode

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Re: Carnforth Clone
« Reply #29 on: April 11, 2020, 09:08:25 PM »
No I meant is the board 10 x 2 or other dimensions ?

Sorry, I really do mean as big as it takes. I want to plan the layout before I build any baseboards - and wood is difficult to get just now anyway. I want something that looks convincing, even if I end up with an odd size.

 

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