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Author Topic: BR (WR) Plain & Lined Black & Green Liveries  (Read 380 times)

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Offline ten0G

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BR (WR) Plain & Lined Black & Green Liveries
« on: October 02, 2019, 08:27:34 PM »
 :hellosign:

I thought a thread on various Western Region paint-shop loco liveries may be useful, for both ex-GW and BR Standard classes. 

Iíve never seen a GW prairie in plain green other than the Dapol models of small prairies. 

There were quite a few about, both large and small.

Swindon also didnt always put lining on the black 51xx/61xx 2-6-2 prairie tanks (or even the Manors) when they wore early BR crests, even though they were mixed traffic locos.
This was because the time taken to undertake lining was significant, and the locos involved were not top link locos.
So maybe the unlined green was also earlier than I thought, and could have been from 1957? Photographic evidence is required to confirm this.

The WR didn't like lined black livery. From memory, only the Saints, Halls and Counties received it en-masse. Manors, Granges, Moguls and Praires should all have had lined Black as they were mixed traffic classes but mostly received plain black (although a few members of each class managed to get lining.

I have heard 2 different theories behind this. Firstly, lined black was essentially LNWR livery and former GWR men didn't like painting their engines in the livery of their old rivals. The second explanation was that the GWR had never lined "lesser" locos (anything smaller than a Hall) and didn't want to start at nationalisation. Hence classes that had not been lined in GWR days received unlined livery despite being entitled to lining.

Black one does indeed look ďproperĒ.  I also like the preserved green one but I assume that livery is not suitable for 1948-1968?  The plain black also looks better to me than plain green.

Paddy

Apologies for not following this up sooner, but Iíve been rather occupied by long-term health issues so donít have much opportunity to contribute to the Forum nowadays. 

In fact, I probably shouldnít be putting time in on this now, but I do want to order some RevolutioN locos from the initial offer before the closing date. 

I unearthed my copy of Brian Haresnapeís ďCollett & Hawkesworth LocomotivesĒ (Ian Allan, 1979 reprint) over the August bank holiday and found the reference to plain green livery in section 3, page 41, which I noted a few decades ago:

"Some of the 5600 class received plain green BR livery in 1957, and later that year a start was made on repainting them in fully lined green, ÖĒ 

Iíve always taken this to indicate that later repaints were fully lined, but that the initial unlined ones were already put back into service so unlikely to be recalled just to receive lining.  Perhaps Iím wrong. 
Of the four monochrome photos on pps 40-41, only one photo on p41 is easily identified of 6624 in lined green in 1961, one predates 1957 and the other two appear to be unlined but whether black or green is impossible for me to say. 

So far, Mattís identified 6600 in lined green still with the totem, apparently having a short s-v bonnet and lighter counterbalance weights.  If I buy 6681, I hope a totem could be put over the small crest without much difficulty and the number changed.  However, I haven't seen her "very lightly weathered" yet so don't know how easy it would be. 

When it comes to finding a suitable example of a tall s-v bonneted one with the heavier weights, Iíll carry on searching the photos in what limited time I have, but if anyone comes across any interesting livery variations photo'd in the late 1950s/early 60s, then Iíd be happy to consider changing my strategy, whether black, BR green or GWR green just as long as they donít have there brass bonnets painted over. 

Any contributions gratefully received. 

 :thankyousign:
« Last Edit: November 17, 2019, 07:36:41 PM by ten0G, Reason: Thread purpose redefined »

Offline Paddy

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Re: BR (WR) Plain & Lined Black & Green Liveries
« Reply #1 on: October 02, 2019, 10:22:08 PM »
Hi Ten0G,

Thank you for the information - it is very much appreciated.  I have ordered a plain BR black loco now.

Sorry to hear about your health issues and I hope you are starting to feel a wee bit better.

Take care.

Paddy
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Offline ten0G

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Dapol ND013 45xx BR Prairie
« Reply #2 on: November 16, 2019, 12:54:35 PM »
 :hellosign:

I occasionally see the Dapol ND013 45xx BR prairie for sale on eBay.  Iíve never paid close attention to it as I have a black one.  Hattons list it as ďND013 45xx 2-6-2 tank loco in 4570 BR unlined green with early crest.Ē

However, Iíve recently started wondering whether this is a bona fide BR livery or not and what period itís supposed to represent.  Is that really BR Brunswick green or GW mid-chrome green, Iím beginning to wonder.   :hmmm:

If someone can provide any useful information Iíd be very grateful. 

 :thankyousign:

Offline Newportnobby

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Re: BR (WR) Plain & Lined Black & Green Liveries
« Reply #3 on: November 16, 2019, 02:44:53 PM »
A good question. I have the ND-013 version and it certainly is not Brunswick green :no:


Offline martyn

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Re: BR (WR) Plain & Lined Black & Green Liveries
« Reply #4 on: November 16, 2019, 06:42:05 PM »
A selection of quotes from 'Railway Liveries; BR Steam1948-1968' by Haresnape/Boocock. They are  from photo captions or information in the book.

'The WR did not paint valances of ex GWR locos.' 'Many black engines received non-standard red backgrounds to their nameplates'.

'Swindon began painting most of the locos....Brunswick green. Hall class were given lined green'.

'Swindon works went through a phase of painting all locos green....lesser engines received no lining'; photo BR class 3 tank dated 6/62, unlined.

Photo of 'Large Prairie' 6129, dated 3/59; 'plain black, little adornment; BR instruction for mixed traffic locos was to be lined black!'.

'Swindon unilateral adoption of plain unlined black in the early 1960s led to unsatisfactory appearance of 6373 in 2/62'.

Incidentally, the WR painted a small 'X' above the cabside numberplate  for 'a locomotive able to haul greater loads than normally specified for this class'. Photo is of 6990.

I appreciate that there is little specific to individual classes in this post, but I hope it may be of help in research.

martyn




Offline ten0G

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Re: BR (WR) Plain & Lined Black & Green Liveries
« Reply #5 on: November 17, 2019, 11:53:36 AM »
A good question. I have the ND-013 version and it certainly is not Brunswick green :no:


Thanks Mick. 

I think unlined looks better on smaller engines, and I think she looks good with the BR lion.  Iíd like to ask two things about the livery on this model please. 

Firstly, what colour the tank tops are (the angle of your photo makes me think theyíre green), and secondly whether the locoís number is painted on the buffer beams as the GWR used to do. 

Iíve never noticed either in the photos Iíve seen, but as I said I didnít take much notice. 

Offline ten0G

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Re: BR (WR) Plain & Lined Black & Green Liveries
« Reply #6 on: November 17, 2019, 12:04:47 PM »

I appreciate that there is little specific to individual classes in this post, but I hope it may be of help in research.

martyn

Thanks for your info, Martyn.  My hope also and the aim of this thread. 

Offline ten0G

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Re: BR (WR) Plain & Lined Black & Green Liveries
« Reply #7 on: November 17, 2019, 12:23:46 PM »
I thought a thread on various Swindon loco liveries may be useful, for both ex-GW and BR Standard classes. 
In my opening post, I've referred to Swindon liveries. 

However, I'm now wondering if there were other paint-shops used by BR(WR) in the late forties and the fifties which may have had slightly differing ideas regarding which the correct liveries were. 

I've managed to excavate two books by R.C. Riley (monochrome) and one by H. Ballantyne (colour) to reread (after many decades!) and will post anything interesting when I have more time. 

 :thankyousign:

Offline Newportnobby

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Re: BR (WR) Plain & Lined Black & Green Liveries
« Reply #8 on: November 17, 2019, 02:30:01 PM »

Firstly, what colour the tank tops are (the angle of your photo makes me think theyíre green), and secondly whether the locoís number is painted on the buffer beams as the GWR used to do. 


Tank tops are black and no number appears on the buffer beams. Hope this helps!

Offline martyn

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Re: BR (WR) Plain & Lined Black & Green Liveries
« Reply #9 on: November 17, 2019, 03:03:53 PM »
The WR also used Newton Abbott until July 1960, Caerphilly until April 1963, and Wolverhampton until February 1964.

A few locos and their liveries;

Swindon

8109, 5/63, unlined black
7824, 5/58, lined green
1000, 2/60, lined green, carries X above cabside numberplate
8481, 4/63, unlined black
6163, 11/62, unlined green
4934, 8/59, lined green
92208, 6/62, unlined black
7900, 12/57, lined green
6602, 1/63, unlined black, safety valve bonnet also black
4257,2/60, unlined black, black bonnet
4062, 4/52, lined green
6023, 3/52, lined blue
2895,8/62, unlined black, black bonnet (?)
6136, 7/63, unlined green, black bonnet
7026, 12/58, lined green
1011, 11/62, lined green; not sure if there is an X or not.

Newton Abbott
4566,7/60, lined green-the last loco overhauled there.

Caerphilly
7203, 9/60, unlined black
6389,7/57, seems to be unlined black, but carries a red reversing lever; a Caerphilly trade mark
5689;8/60, lined green

Wolverhampton
7444,9/61, unlined black.

The buffer beam number, as on the ex LNER, was replaced by the BR cast smokebox plate.

HTH

martyn




« Last Edit: November 17, 2019, 03:11:10 PM by martyn, Reason: Extra info »

Offline ten0G

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Re: BR (WR) Plain & Lined Black & Green Liveries
« Reply #10 on: November 17, 2019, 08:44:26 PM »
The WR also used Newton Abbott until July 1960, Caerphilly until April 1963, and Wolverhampton until February 1964.

Thanks again, Martyn. 

I've reworded my opening sentence accordingly. 

Guess for a layout based in South-West Wales, Caerphilly is more relevant from my point of view. 


Offline martyn

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Re: BR (WR) Plain & Lined Black & Green Liveries
« Reply #11 on: December 11, 2019, 03:01:49 PM »
Whilst-again-looking for something completely different, I came upon this website, which seems fairly comprehensive;

http://www.gwr.org.uk/liveriesloco1948.html

HTH

Martyn

 

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