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Author Topic: Grafar duchess body removal  (Read 356 times)

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Offline Delboy

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Grafar duchess body removal
« on: August 13, 2019, 04:34:15 PM »
Can anyone confirm how I remove the loco body from the duchess chassis as various searches on the forum haven't helped and internet is getting more difficult with normally useful service sheet sites closing down. I can see there is a large screw underneath the front bogie. Is that all that holds it. I need to have a look inside as the motor is spinning but not reaching the drive wheels. Thanks in advance.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2019, 04:35:20 PM by Delboy, Reason: grammar »
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Offline Dr Al

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Re: Grafar duchess body removal
« Reply #1 on: August 13, 2019, 05:51:47 PM »
If a new tooling Duchess, then there are screws either side of the drawbar connection at the rear end, as well as the front screw you identify.

They can be seen on the exploded diagram on the service sheet:
http://service.bachmann.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/GF_Princess-Coronation.pdf

Motor popping out of its mount has been seen a few times by folks, this is probably your problem.

HTH,
Alan
Quote from: Roy L S
If Dr Al is online he may be able to provide a more comprehensive answer.

“We have also arranged things so that almost no one understands science and technology. This is a prescription for disaster. We might get away with it for a while, but sooner or later this combustible mixture of ignorance and power is going to blow up in our faces.”Dr. Carl Sagan

Offline Delboy

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Re: Grafar duchess body removal
« Reply #2 on: August 13, 2019, 06:26:16 PM »
@Dr Al Don't think it is the new tooling version. It has pizza wheels and is very heavy and not DCC.
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Offline Dr Al

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Re: Grafar duchess body removal
« Reply #3 on: August 13, 2019, 06:44:06 PM »
Ok, old tool then - the front underside screw that holds the front bogie will release the body. You may need to remove the rear bogie too for clearance, and then lift the body up at the front and slide it back to disengage the slide in rear connection.

HTH,
Alan
Quote from: Roy L S
If Dr Al is online he may be able to provide a more comprehensive answer.

“We have also arranged things so that almost no one understands science and technology. This is a prescription for disaster. We might get away with it for a while, but sooner or later this combustible mixture of ignorance and power is going to blow up in our faces.”Dr. Carl Sagan

Offline Delboy

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Re: Grafar duchess body removal
« Reply #4 on: August 13, 2019, 06:51:07 PM »
@Dr Al,
Thanks for the info.
I will give it a go in the morning.
Delboy.
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Offline Fredastaire

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Re: Grafar duchess body removal
« Reply #5 on: August 13, 2019, 11:31:41 PM »
Theres very old tool, old tool (both made in the UK at Poole, Dorset and newer old tool made in China. ‘Very old’ may have a brass main spur gear wheel, ‘old Poole may have white or black plastic main spur gearwheels.
The Plastic geared Poole products when faulty often have a split gear wheel. Chinese made product which still follow ‘old tool’ design may suffer quite a number of manufacturing faults as it took some time for them to ‘get the hang of how to do it’, some of these faults end up with gear teeth chewed off.
‘Poole made’ were not designed for replacing gears as the greatwheels are moulded integral with the axle, later China variants have wheels that push onto splines allowing easier gear changes.
Nothing is insurmountable, gears cost aboutŁ2.50 for a packet of two.
So.... once youve taken the chassis out and found the problem and cause, report back and im sure Dr Al will provide the repair technique applicable.
Whatever you find it IS repairable.

Offline Delboy

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Re: Grafar duchess body removal
« Reply #6 on: August 15, 2019, 02:30:23 PM »
Theres very old tool, old tool (both made in the UK at Poole, Dorset and newer old tool made in China. ‘Very old’ may have a brass main spur gear wheel, ‘old Poole may have white or black plastic main spur gearwheels.
The Plastic geared Poole products when faulty often have a split gear wheel. Chinese made product which still follow ‘old tool’ design may suffer quite a number of manufacturing faults as it took some time for them to ‘get the hang of how to do it’, some of these faults end up with gear teeth chewed off.
‘Poole made’ were not designed for replacing gears as the greatwheels are moulded integral with the axle, later China variants have wheels that push onto splines allowing easier gear changes.
Nothing is insurmountable, gears cost aboutŁ2.50 for a packet of two.
So.... once youve taken the chassis out and found the problem and cause, report back and im sure Dr Al will provide the repair technique applicable.
Whatever you find it IS repairable.
Thanks for that in depth reply. I have just undone the front screw underneath the front bogie and all it seems to be there for is to retain the front plastic smoke box assembly.
Perhaps @Dr Al or your good self can advise.
Regards Delboy.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2019, 02:40:04 PM by Delboy »
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Offline Fredastaire

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Re: Grafar duchess body removal
« Reply #7 on: August 15, 2019, 03:46:39 PM »
Ahhh....
The bogie has its shiny metal drawbar rivetted to its top. The drawbar is pivotted by a screw which is at the forward end of the black plastic base cover plate.
Undo this screw, its long and passes into the metal body. Remove this screw, wiggle out the bogie drawbar then ease the chassis out.

Offline Delboy

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Re: Grafar duchess body removal
« Reply #8 on: August 15, 2019, 06:13:17 PM »
Thanks for the reply.
I have accessed the inners and still no nearer solving the problem as a 9v battery supply shows the motor spinning freely but the drive wheels not moving and as there is no obvious shifting of the motor bracket suspect it is stripped plastic gearing
How do I remove the motor to expose the gearing please?
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Offline Dr Al

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Re: Grafar duchess body removal
« Reply #9 on: August 15, 2019, 06:25:04 PM »
Can you post a photo? It may be worn gearing - this should be obvious on some photos, before you go any further.

Cheers,
Alan
Quote from: Roy L S
If Dr Al is online he may be able to provide a more comprehensive answer.

“We have also arranged things so that almost no one understands science and technology. This is a prescription for disaster. We might get away with it for a while, but sooner or later this combustible mixture of ignorance and power is going to blow up in our faces.”Dr. Carl Sagan

Offline Delboy

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Re: Grafar duchess body removal
« Reply #10 on: August 15, 2019, 06:43:52 PM »
@Dr Al
As requested here are 2 photos of opened Duchess which has obviously had tender pickups added at some point. Ran like a dream but left it running and when I remembered it was still working in my garage, found it still and collided with another loco which may have meant it had been trying to move on for some time and perhaps stripped the gears. However I can see no evidence of shreds of black plastic so none the wiser.




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Offline Dr Al

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Re: Grafar duchess body removal
« Reply #11 on: August 15, 2019, 06:48:18 PM »
Not obvious to see - but check the small remaining pickup screw - the nut doesn't look tightened here on your pics - and it's this that holds the armature cradle down and gives good meshing.

If this doesn't help, it's likely a worn drive gear on the axle - they don't tend to yield much swarf. If you can turn the wheelset by hand carefully you should be able to inspect the entire circumference of the gear - wear will be obvious. If so it'll need changing.

Duchesses were factory fitted with tender pickups from this era, so that's exactly as it should (and will always) have been.

Cheers,
Alan
Quote from: Roy L S
If Dr Al is online he may be able to provide a more comprehensive answer.

“We have also arranged things so that almost no one understands science and technology. This is a prescription for disaster. We might get away with it for a while, but sooner or later this combustible mixture of ignorance and power is going to blow up in our faces.”Dr. Carl Sagan

Offline Delboy

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Re: Grafar duchess body removal
« Reply #12 on: August 15, 2019, 06:53:48 PM »
Just tightened the nut and got some intermittent movement for maybe you are on to something there. I notice on close inspection that there seems some fluff between the commutator and the motor so perhaps i should try to remove that with some tweezers, then tighten everything up and report back. does that sound like a plan?
She who must be obeyed says I am spending too much time on this forum. I love her dearly but what does she know?

Offline Dr Al

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Re: Grafar duchess body removal
« Reply #13 on: August 15, 2019, 06:55:49 PM »
Just tightened the nut and got some intermittent movement for maybe you are on to something there. I notice on close inspection that there seems some fluff between the commutator and the motor so perhaps i should try to remove that with some tweezers, then tighten everything up and report back. does that sound like a plan?


Yes, give that a first try.

Cheers,
Alan
Quote from: Roy L S
If Dr Al is online he may be able to provide a more comprehensive answer.

“We have also arranged things so that almost no one understands science and technology. This is a prescription for disaster. We might get away with it for a while, but sooner or later this combustible mixture of ignorance and power is going to blow up in our faces.”Dr. Carl Sagan

Offline Delboy

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Re: Grafar duchess body removal
« Reply #14 on: August 15, 2019, 07:16:17 PM »
Re-assembled it again and nothing. No movement of either motor or drive wheels? I have made sure that the wire feeding from the other side of the motor casing is secured around the nut when I tightened the respective screw. Also the pickups seem to be sitting correctly between the wheels and the chassis frame.bWhen I strip it down again, the motor whirls but no wheel movement. Probably nothing to do with my problem but, in the second photo, there is a hole to the rear of the exposed gear. Should there be a screw for this?
She who must be obeyed says I am spending too much time on this forum. I love her dearly but what does she know?

 

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