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Author Topic: Replacement motors for Farish 4-CEP / 411 (and similar mechs)?  (Read 1141 times)

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Offline Dr Al

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Re: Replacement motors for Farish 4-CEP / 411 (and similar mechs)?
« Reply #30 on: July 19, 2019, 12:51:23 AM »
Is it possible that the Farish Standard 5 ( 5MT ) is a rogue design?

Probably not a design issue. Other coreless fitted locos produced at similar times, or even prior (e.g. Fairburn, N class), have seen no similar reports, so that points to the possibility that there may have been a batch of marginal motors fitted to these 5MTs. I've seen a dead one too - took the motor apart and found a coil attachment to the (microscopic) commutator had come away. Not possible to repair as even getting these motors apart destroys them.

On the flip side, that's only 6 or 7 reports of failures in maybe as many as 3000 production units.

I'm not sure how hardy these motors are to crass handling - they draw so little current (10-20mA) that overcurrent may well be much lower than on other older designs, and as such the strain modellers put on them may force failures (e.g. dragging models along tracks while under power, use on too heavy trains or gradients to point of slippage, aggressive wheel cleaning). Maybe that's just not true, but I suspect these would overheat fast if drawing 100mA or more stalled for instance. By comparison, a Poole armature will hack 400 before it damage is done.

I still think the coreless is a good motor, far better than Bachmann's 3 pole cans as used extensively on tender drives and diesels (except class 40 which is coreless). The problem is the availability of spares when replacement does become necessary, which is only going to become a more prevalent problem with time as they all clock up usage.

The other problem with cans is the secondhand buy - you have no idea how much life may be left in any motor - and replacing common consumables like brushes is just impossible.

Cheers,
Alan
Quote from: Roy L S
If Dr Al is online he may be able to provide a more comprehensive answer.

“We have also arranged things so that almost no one understands science and technology. This is a prescription for disaster. We might get away with it for a while, but sooner or later this combustible mixture of ignorance and power is going to blow up in our faces.”Dr. Carl Sagan

Offline Fredastaire

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Re: Replacement motors for Farish 4-CEP / 411 (and similar mechs)?
« Reply #31 on: July 19, 2019, 08:43:33 AM »
Taking my club colleagues problems, all three Standard Fives have had failed motors, so thats 100% failure rate, two of the three are now on their second replacement motors.
Yet
His Austerities and Fairburns are still running fine.
The Standard Five (which ive had in bits) has double reduction gearing, ive just looked at my Fairburn paperwork and it suggests the same gearing.
The post mortem i did on two of my colleagues motors showed them to have worn out brushgear, not burnt out.
I did try a motor repair by substituting an end cap of a brand new corless motor however i was a bit clumsy on this my first go and it only worked a few minutes,( I had part damaged a brush). I will have another go next time i get one of these broken motors. (I buy coreless motors from my local electronics shop for £1.00 each to use their multistrand fine wires for other repair jobs, the motors i think are vibrator motors, wrong voltage, tiny spindle so no good as a repair for Farish.

Online ntpntpntp

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Re: Replacement motors for Farish 4-CEP / 411 (and similar mechs)?
« Reply #32 on: July 19, 2019, 08:53:54 AM »
The post mortem i did on two of my colleagues motors showed them to have worn out brushgear, not burnt out.

Yes the first motor replacement I did for @Invicta Alec's 156 turned out to be a bent/jammed "finger" on one side of the brushes (metal wipers rather than proper carbon brushes).   I sorted that out and the motor does run but I wouldn't trust it "in service" now.

The replacement for the 411 had simply failed to a short circuit or at least very high current condition.  I dismantled and cleaned out the commutator slots, I had it running again but it still showed signs of intermittent high current so I've junked that one.
Nick.   2016 celebrating the 20th anniversary of "Königshafen" exhibition layout!

Offline Dr Al

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Re: Replacement motors for Farish 4-CEP / 411 (and similar mechs)?
« Reply #33 on: July 19, 2019, 09:02:00 AM »
Taking my club colleagues problems, all three Standard Fives have had failed motors, so thats 100% failure rate, two of the three are now on their second replacement motors.
Yet
His Austerities and Fairburns are still running fine.
The Standard Five (which ive had in bits) has double reduction gearing, ive just looked at my Fairburn paperwork and it suggests the same gearing.
The post mortem i did on two of my colleagues motors showed them to have worn out brushgear, not burnt out.

Have you any feeling for how many hours they'd actually run? And on specifically what controllers? It sounds suspicious that the same loco is going through multiple motors - coreless motors are not designed for feedback control for example.

It's clear on all these motors that the brushgear is what will ultimately consign them to the bin - once worn there's no feasible replacement (not one I'd trust much, at least).

Cheers,
Alan
Quote from: Roy L S
If Dr Al is online he may be able to provide a more comprehensive answer.

“We have also arranged things so that almost no one understands science and technology. This is a prescription for disaster. We might get away with it for a while, but sooner or later this combustible mixture of ignorance and power is going to blow up in our faces.”Dr. Carl Sagan

Offline Fredastaire

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Re: Replacement motors for Farish 4-CEP / 411 (and similar mechs)?
« Reply #34 on: July 19, 2019, 02:12:23 PM »
hi Alan, my colleagues standard fives number three off, two of them have seen DCC at his home, one has never seen DCC so we can rule that one out, his DCC is Bachmann. All three have had motor failures, two are on second replacement motors. They wont have seen many hours as such in that he has a good selection of Locos to choose from at his home layout. Same person also runs the Farish Fairburn and Austerity. At he club our controllers are Gaugemaster however not with feedback, we had one club layout with Gaugemaster inc feedback, one of our members has links with Bachmann and one evening he brought a brand new pre production sample with coreless motor to show members, within minutes the loco went up in smoke, needless to say that one controller went into the dustbin.
Other members, including me, run a number of Austerities both in BR and LMR guise and LMS Fairburns and we have no problems (yet).
So; is the mechanics of a Standard five and different to the mechanics of a Fairburn? If the gearing is different ratio then perhaps the Standard Five does more revolutions and wears out quicker?
.
As an aside, ive replaced a motor in a Farish Prototype Deltic, is that Coreless? I found out later that the second hand model that I had bought came from a nearby preserved railway location where t had run most days on the 'model trains' layout so its not surprising that it was worn out; I also did a post mortem on that motor only to find little remaining of the brushgear.

Offline Dr Al

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Re: Replacement motors for Farish 4-CEP / 411 (and similar mechs)?
« Reply #35 on: July 19, 2019, 03:48:29 PM »
So; is the mechanics of a Standard five and different to the mechanics of a Fairburn? If the gearing is different ratio then perhaps the Standard Five does more revolutions and wears out quicker?


I doubt it - certainly not in a way that affects brushgear. After all, the Duchess and Castle will be geared similarly as express passenger engines, and they don't seem to be suffering these (yet).

As an aside, ive replaced a motor in a Farish Prototype Deltic, is that Coreless?

No, is a standard 3 pole can.

Cheers,
Alan
« Last Edit: July 20, 2019, 12:58:36 AM by Dr Al »
Quote from: Roy L S
If Dr Al is online he may be able to provide a more comprehensive answer.

“We have also arranged things so that almost no one understands science and technology. This is a prescription for disaster. We might get away with it for a while, but sooner or later this combustible mixture of ignorance and power is going to blow up in our faces.”Dr. Carl Sagan

Offline Fredastaire

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Re: Replacement motors for Farish 4-CEP / 411 (and similar mechs)?
« Reply #36 on: July 20, 2019, 08:29:23 PM »
Ive just watched a Std5 sell on Ebay for £59.50, described as owned from new and had a new motor 2 years back. I didnt bid as its probably close to time expired on its replacement motor........
Im on the lookout for a spares repair specimen to attempt a remotoring with a Tramfabriek motor.

Offline Fredastaire

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Re: Replacement motors for Farish 4-CEP / 411 (and similar mechs)?
« Reply #37 on: August 01, 2019, 08:28:54 AM »
Alas my friend at our club has now had the coreless motor fail in his 3 year old Austerity Loco.
Come on Mr Bachmann, please can we have a better quality longer lasting replacement motor?
Ive now got another repair job!

Offline Dr Al

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Re: Replacement motors for Farish 4-CEP / 411 (and similar mechs)?
« Reply #38 on: August 01, 2019, 09:24:37 AM »
Alas my friend at our club has now had the coreless motor fail in his 3 year old Austerity Loco.

The same questions of what controller and how much has it been run have to be asked.

Cheers,
Alan
Quote from: Roy L S
If Dr Al is online he may be able to provide a more comprehensive answer.

“We have also arranged things so that almost no one understands science and technology. This is a prescription for disaster. We might get away with it for a while, but sooner or later this combustible mixture of ignorance and power is going to blow up in our faces.”Dr. Carl Sagan

Offline Fredastaire

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Re: Replacement motors for Farish 4-CEP / 411 (and similar mechs)?
« Reply #39 on: August 01, 2019, 12:30:23 PM »
Usage 2-3 hours per month only at the club track only as built with its blanking PCB ie no DCC, controller is gaugemaster (but not feedback type). Many club members run Farish coreless however individually we change locos on a night so we dont amass any hours. We all use the same controllers).
My colleages Austerity will now have done circa 100 hours from new which tallys with other reports of lifespan of motors, ( i seem to recall another member (was it you DrAl?), suggesting 100 hours to expiry.

Online ntpntpntp

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Re: Replacement motors for Farish 4-CEP / 411 (and similar mechs)?
« Reply #40 on: August 01, 2019, 02:09:44 PM »
My colleages Austerity will now have done circa 100 hours from new which tallys with other reports of lifespan of motors, ( i seem to recall another member (was it you DrAl?), suggesting 100 hours to expiry.

Don't get hung up on the 100 hours thing, it's probably just a number plucked from the air based on a few people's observations. It very much depends on how the motor is treated in terms of load applied and smoothness of the supplied power.   It's really just saying these motors have no user-servicable parts, you can't replace the brushes when they wear - and indeed some of the modern cans I've dismantled only have thin metal fingers for brushes.
Nick.   2016 celebrating the 20th anniversary of "Königshafen" exhibition layout!

Offline Dr Al

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Re: Replacement motors for Farish 4-CEP / 411 (and similar mechs)?
« Reply #41 on: August 01, 2019, 02:47:11 PM »
Don't get hung up on the 100 hours thing, it's probably just a number plucked from the air based on a few people's observations.

Someone on here did a sacrificial test on a can motor to see how long until failure, which was the origin of this number.

It was however, the standard Farish 3 pole can motor, not the coreless. However, if it failed due to wiper/brush and commutator wear then it may well be appropriate for the coreless also as it has similar commutation.

I'd have hoped the coreless would be kinder on the commutator as it draws about 1/10 the current, but maybe not by the reports of failures.

Cheers,
Alan
Quote from: Roy L S
If Dr Al is online he may be able to provide a more comprehensive answer.

“We have also arranged things so that almost no one understands science and technology. This is a prescription for disaster. We might get away with it for a while, but sooner or later this combustible mixture of ignorance and power is going to blow up in our faces.”Dr. Carl Sagan

Offline Izzy

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Re: Replacement motors for Farish 4-CEP / 411 (and similar mechs)?
« Reply #42 on: August 01, 2019, 04:16:56 PM »
I wonder if it would help to describe how the coreless motor design has arisen, and which also might explain the current situation.

They have historically been known as instrument motors because that was their original and continuing intended use, as precision parts in such equipment, with precise and measurable response to very small changes in current. Movement rather than power output being the main goal and many/most use precious metal finger brushes as part of the design. Such motors have been produced by Swiss & German firms e.g. Maxon, Escap, Faulhaber.

That these motors were very efficient (and quiet/noiseless) came to the attention of those seeking better motors, but their efficiency has often been confused as meaning more powerful, which on their own they have not been in comparison with ordinary iron rotor motors of similar actual size, although development in recent decades of more powerful magnets allied to other improvements has changed this aspect to some degree. Many are fitted to (or come with integral) spur drive gearboxes, often of high ratio. In the past I have used 20x20mm faulhabers with integral 59-1 gear heads, the gears being of watchmaking size (to aid in absorbing as little of the motors power output as possible). It is in this combination that power as well as movement is generally produced. They are on a different level to the current coreless motors in model trains etc both in build quality, and cost.

The more recent efforts to reduce the current consumption of all electrical goods in combination with reducing the sizes of many parts for use in small electrical goods such as mobile phones etc has lead to the widespread use of the coreless design primarily for it’s very small current drain. Ordinary cored motors have also become much more efficient, with many taking on certain design aspects for this or cost reduction purposes, the finger brushes being one example.

Obviously all of these motors are meant for certain purposes, many where longevity is not a main concern. They are either not subjected to constant use, the product not intended to last for a long time in usage, or the motors are replaced at regular intervals when they reach a determined number of operating hours relative to their expected maximum life span. This is now quite common in equipment such as that for medical use and just part of the running costs incurred.

My guess, and it is only that, is that the failure of the Farish motors of either type, coreless or can, is when they are asked to run at and draw more amperage than their windings and finger brushes can cope with for sustained periods of use.

Izzy

Offline Dr Al

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Re: Replacement motors for Farish 4-CEP / 411 (and similar mechs)?
« Reply #43 on: August 01, 2019, 11:39:30 PM »
It's really just saying these motors have no user-servicable parts

I don't think folks would be that narky about that, if affordable replacements were available. As it is, £18+ from Bachmann is not cheap, especially if 100 hours is the lifespan! It's easy, and then natural to then immediately compare with older models who've been through multiple brush sets and are still going strong, some 40 or even close to 50 years old.

Shame those on ebay have never returned with more cheap identical coreless 12V rated 7mm diameter motors.

Cheers,
Alan
Quote from: Roy L S
If Dr Al is online he may be able to provide a more comprehensive answer.

“We have also arranged things so that almost no one understands science and technology. This is a prescription for disaster. We might get away with it for a while, but sooner or later this combustible mixture of ignorance and power is going to blow up in our faces.”Dr. Carl Sagan

Offline Fredastaire

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Re: Replacement motors for Farish 4-CEP / 411 (and similar mechs)?
« Reply #44 on: August 02, 2019, 09:13:25 AM »
Memory tells me (Dr Al), that you bought a quantity of usable 12 volt coreless 7mm motors.
If I am correct can you locate by researching your paypal and Ebay history the original seller and his listing description?
If ‘yes’ can you message the original  seller and ask if he still sells them? Its always possible that the seller lists them on Ebay elsewhere in the world and we just cant ‘see’ them on UK Ebay searches.
.
Whilst many of us dont approve of the component choice made by Bachmann with its (to us), short service life, its the parts cost that is the frictional uncomfortable aspect.
Maybe soon a motor manufacturer may come up with a brushless minature option.
 

 

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