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Author Topic: The end of DJ Models?  (Read 24627 times)

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Offline emjaybee

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Re: The end of DJ Models?
« Reply #165 on: June 08, 2019, 12:05:48 PM »
I would imagine this way of funding/manufacturing model railway stock is now dead in the water, I can't see anyone stumping up cash up front anymore. I guess the likes of Revolution will be ok but the "one man bands" i'm not so sure?

A sad state of affairs.

I disagree quite strongly. As previously stated, there's nothing wrong with the funding/manufacturing principle. RevolutioN being a good example of how to do it well. It just needs to move at a measured pace, starting small, working up.

Walk before you run.
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Offline Philip.

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Re: The end of DJ Models?
« Reply #166 on: June 08, 2019, 04:34:19 PM »
I would imagine this way of funding/manufacturing model railway stock is now dead in the water, I can't see anyone stumping up cash up front anymore. I guess the likes of Revolution will be ok but the "one man bands" i'm not so sure?

A sad state of affairs.

I disagree quite strongly. As previously stated, there's nothing wrong with the funding/manufacturing principle. RevolutioN being a good example of how to do it well. It just needs to move at a measured pace, starting small, working up.

Walk before you run.

That may be so and I did say the likes of Revolution will be OK, I have no experience with this sort of crowdfunding, but any prospective customers may think twice before parting with hard earned cash thus stifling those projects that "move at a measured pace, starting small, working up."

Offline Snowwolflair

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Re: The end of DJ Models?
« Reply #167 on: June 08, 2019, 04:49:50 PM »
I would imagine this way of funding/manufacturing model railway stock is now dead in the water, I can't see anyone stumping up cash up front anymore. I guess the likes of Revolution will be ok but the "one man bands" i'm not so sure?

A sad state of affairs.

I disagree quite strongly. As previously stated, there's nothing wrong with the funding/manufacturing principle. RevolutioN being a good example of how to do it well. It just needs to move at a measured pace, starting small, working up.

Walk before you run.

That may be so and I did say the likes of Revolution will be OK, I have no experience with this sort of crowdfunding, but any prospective customers may think twice before parting with hard earned cash thus stifling those projects that "move at a measured pace, starting small, working up."

Strictly DJ did not crowdfund, he called it that but in practice he sold a deposit on custom built goods with a promise to deliver.

Kickstarter et-al which are true crowdfunders wait till the funding "promise" is complete, take all the money up front, and as it is a punt you only get "rewards" if it succeeds. Crowdfunding is all risk and credit card companies treat it like betting and wont refund against it.

Revolution and others are far more responsible, not taking money until they are dammed sure of being able to deliver. (this again is not crowdfunding).

Offline Philip.

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Re: The end of DJ Models?
« Reply #168 on: June 08, 2019, 04:54:07 PM »
I would imagine this way of funding/manufacturing model railway stock is now dead in the water, I can't see anyone stumping up cash up front anymore. I guess the likes of Revolution will be ok but the "one man bands" i'm not so sure?

A sad state of affairs.

I disagree quite strongly. As previously stated, there's nothing wrong with the funding/manufacturing principle. RevolutioN being a good example of how to do it well. It just needs to move at a measured pace, starting small, working up.

Walk before you run.

That may be so and I did say the likes of Revolution will be OK, I have no experience with this sort of crowdfunding, but any prospective customers may think twice before parting with hard earned cash thus stifling those projects that "move at a measured pace, starting small, working up."

Strictly DJ did not crowdfund, he called it that but in practice he sold a deposit on custom built goods with a promise to deliver.

Kickstarter et-al which are true crowdfunders wait till the funding "promise" is complete, take all the money up front, and as it is a punt you only get "rewards" if it succeeds. Crowdfunding is all risk and credit card companies treat it like betting and wont refund against it.

Revolution and others are far more responsible, not taking money until they are dammed sure of being able to deliver. (this again is not crowdfunding).

You're right of course, my mistake in calling it crowdfunding, I still think people will be wary of paying a deposit to fund a project.

Offline idlemoor

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Re: The end of DJ Models?
« Reply #169 on: June 08, 2019, 05:16:26 PM »
There are multiple things that could be tried by future new entrants. Examples might include

Consumer's co-op
Proper ring-fenced or escrow crowfunding, not faux-crowdfunding preorders
Time-constrained fundraising
Open book project finances
No more one man bands
Innovative manufacturing to reduce the minimum viable production run
Open source CAD

And yes, I know plenty of those are anathema to old-school entrepreneurs or well-meaning daydreamers. Good.

But there will still be plenty of people who will never again trust any money-up-front product-later enterprise. It'll be a medley of product-specific numbers games between the persuadable, the unpersuadable, and the market size. There's little point, though, in having an abstract debate here and now between the persuadable and the unpersuadable.
It's almost peaceful. No need to believe in either side, or any side. There is no cause. There's only yourself. The belief is in your own precision.

Offline red_death

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Re: The end of DJ Models?
« Reply #170 on: June 08, 2019, 06:18:17 PM »
Wiki's definition of crowdfunding is:

"Crowdfunding is the practice of funding a project or venture by raising small amounts of money from a large number of people"

That seems to me to be a pretty correct definition that covers many possibilities. Crowdfunding has been around much longer than kickstarter! Bands have been using it to record singles and albums for years.

I'll re-iterate what I wrote earlier - crowdfunding is a tool but not the only one you need to get right to deliver a model. It isn't a silver bullet or an easy solution and shouldn't be seen as such but it can be a valuable method to fund models (or other items) that wouldn't be produced otherwise.

Idlemoor and others have raised some interesting points and ideas. We've looked at some of them (e.g. different manufacturing methods; escrow accounts etc). We already project finance every project so that a model only goes ahead if it has sufficient orders. The crucial decision point being when to start tooling - as soon as you pay any money for tooling you have to have the orders (or reserves) to see the project through to production and delivery. Having enough orders/cash to pay the deposit on tooling but relying on future orders to pay for the rest of tooling and/or production is a recipe for disaster.

Cheers Mike




Offline Snowwolflair

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Re: The end of DJ Models?
« Reply #171 on: June 08, 2019, 06:25:46 PM »
Wiki's definition of crowdfunding is:

"Crowdfunding is the practice of funding a project or venture by raising small amounts of money from a large number of people"

That seems to me to be a pretty correct definition that covers many possibilities. Crowdfunding has been around much longer than kickstarter! Bands have been using it to record singles and albums for years.

I'll re-iterate what I wrote earlier - crowdfunding is a tool but not the only one you need to get right to deliver a model. It isn't a silver bullet or an easy solution and shouldn't be seen as such but it can be a valuable method to fund models (or other items) that wouldn't be produced otherwise.

Idlemoor and others have raised some interesting points and ideas. We've looked at some of them (e.g. different manufacturing methods; escrow accounts etc). We already project finance every project so that a model only goes ahead if it has sufficient orders. The crucial decision point being when to start tooling - as soon as you pay any money for tooling you have to have the orders (or reserves) to see the project through to production and delivery. Having enough orders/cash to pay the deposit on tooling but relying on future orders to pay for the rest of tooling and/or production is a recipe for disaster.

Cheers Mike

So as not to be argumentative can I simply refer you to The Sale of Goods Act am leave it at that.

Wikiís and laws are not the same.

Offline njee20

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Re: The end of DJ Models?
« Reply #172 on: June 08, 2019, 07:00:41 PM »
The Sale of Goods Act was replaced by the Consumer Rights Act in 2015, so that's a pretty irrelevant referral. If you think Wikipedia is wrong then edit it, IMO it's a pretty good source of information these days.

I don't profess to have read the CRA cover to cover, but I cannot see exclusion for crowdfunded projects. Indeed the word "crowdfund" doesn't appear in the document. There's an interesting blog here which explores whether crowdfunders are investors or consumers, the broad thrust being that as people are generally not professional investors they are, by definition, consumers.

Offline red_death

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Re: The end of DJ Models?
« Reply #173 on: June 08, 2019, 07:09:59 PM »
I'm not sure whether the Consumer Rights Act has ever been tested vis-a-vis crowdfunding but I don't see them as being mutually exclusive anyway. The fact that funds are raised through crowdfunding doesn't necessarily mean the CRA doesn't apply (I would argue it does for most product reward crowdfunding).

Cheers Mike



Offline Snowwolflair

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Re: The end of DJ Models?
« Reply #174 on: June 08, 2019, 07:12:33 PM »
The Sale of Goods Act was replaced by the Consumer Rights Act in 2015, so that's a pretty irrelevant referral. If you think Wikipedia is wrong then edit it, IMO it's a pretty good source of information these days.

I don't profess to have read the CRA cover to cover, but I cannot see exclusion for crowdfunded projects. Indeed the word "crowdfund" doesn't appear in the document. There's an interesting blog here which explores whether crowdfunders are investors or consumers, the broad thrust being that as people are generally not professional investors they are, by definition, consumers.



The provisions defining goods, services, speculations and betting rolled over.

A blog is not case law.

Is there a lawyer on the forum because I just feel it is your want to rubbish anything I say @Tank

Offline njee20

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Re: The end of DJ Models?
« Reply #175 on: June 08, 2019, 07:16:02 PM »
I know, but as Mike says I'm not sure there is case law. I know of US consumers bringing a case (successfully) against organisations who have crowdfunded and subsequent non delivery, but not in the UK and clearly the US legal system is totally different. It'll be interesting when it happens.

I'm simply pointing out that your recommendation doesn't really seem relevant, but unsure if I'm missing something. I don't feel I've been unfair or rubbishing what you say.

Offline Snowwolflair

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Re: The end of DJ Models?
« Reply #176 on: June 08, 2019, 07:16:42 PM »
I'm not sure whether the Consumer Rights Act has ever been tested vis-a-vis crowdfunding but I don't see them as being mutually exclusive anyway. The fact that funds are raised through crowdfunding doesn't necessarily mean the CRA doesn't apply (I would argue it does for most product reward crowdfunding).

Cheers Mike

Mike there is no case law yet but would you not agree itís product that is being sold not rewards.  Thatís the difference.


Offline red_death

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Re: The end of DJ Models?
« Reply #177 on: June 08, 2019, 07:28:16 PM »
I've spent a lot of time reading up on this (and due to my day job I'm well-versed in reading legislation) and I don't see the point/distinction you are trying to make. I've already said my reading of the situation.

Crowdfunding is a method of raising funds, and covers a variety of scenarios. I've been involved in crowdfunding where I got shares - that is clearly an investment; I've also been involved in crowdfunding where the reward has been a product.

I'd hope that anyone involved in crowdfunding something is at least aware of the potential risks (which will vary massively depending on the scenario).

Whether you call it a reward or a product I'm not sure it changes the legal outcome. But we're getting into the realms of law that without case law it is almost impossible to know how a judge would view things.



Offline Only Me

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Re: The end of DJ Models?
« Reply #178 on: June 08, 2019, 07:38:08 PM »
As Mike says this topic has begun to degenerate again into realms of rubbish so thats the end until we see the outcome of the court papers on winding up



Offline Only Me

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Re: The end of DJ Models?
« Reply #179 on: June 11, 2019, 11:48:46 AM »
Unlocked as @Karhedron has some information from the liquidators



 

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