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Author Topic: The end of DJ Models?  (Read 24616 times)

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Online longbow

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Re: The end of DJ Models?
« Reply #60 on: June 04, 2019, 11:13:51 PM »
No doubt Digitrains will shortly suspend King pre-orders. Previously they have assured customers that monies paid to them would be fully refundable in the event of non-delivery.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2019, 11:16:32 PM by longbow »

Offline Pete @ EGLM

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Re: The end of DJ Models?
« Reply #61 on: June 04, 2019, 11:32:39 PM »
You can still get as far as checkout on Digitrains website.  Obviously I didnít try to go any further..

Offline Graham

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Re: The end of DJ Models?
« Reply #62 on: June 04, 2019, 11:39:48 PM »
this is a shame, anything which diminishes the variety in our hobby is not a good thing. I feel sorry for all the people involved customers and staff if there were any. In any case like this it is always the management which takes the blame, regardless of who is at fault. I can only feel lucky as I have procrastinated for a long while over ordering the limited edition 92 in Stobart livery and decided those on order from Revolution were enough for now.

Offline dave_b

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Re: The end of DJ Models?
« Reply #63 on: June 05, 2019, 09:38:21 AM »
I get the impression that Dave was struggling to find customers for many of his proposed models, even under crowdfunding. That suggests to me that a manufacturer might do well to steer clear of such models funded in a conventional way - there just wouldn't be the sales for them.
I'm not sure that I agree with this.  There have been a number of people, both on here and on rmweb who have posted that they would have signed up for an N gauge King, but weren't prepared to take the gamble regarding whether DJM would be able to deliver or not.  Were someone else to take the King over, I'm sure it would sell.  I'm also sure that the N gauge GW mogul would have sold.  Again people were posting saying that they were interested, but were waiting on delivery of the King first.

Offline njee20

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Re: The end of DJ Models?
« Reply #64 on: June 05, 2019, 09:45:17 AM »
It's very tough to call, I followed a number of his projects but was never prepared to pay for anything upfront because I didn't like what I saw. I'd have had a 92 when it appeared (assuming it looked good), and was seriously considering an APT as 'rule 1'.

With Digitrains on board the King seems less of a gamble, and I'm sure Dave has done himself no favours with the Kernow situation on whichever model that was, but it would be hard to quantify how many people were perhaps withholding orders purely because he was the manufacturer.

Offline Bealman

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Re: The end of DJ Models?
« Reply #65 on: June 05, 2019, 09:53:31 AM »
Too many promises, not enough concrete results.

Vision over visibility. Bono, U2.

Offline Bob G

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Re: The end of DJ Models?
« Reply #66 on: June 05, 2019, 10:17:29 AM »
The market is very dynamic at the moment with many new crowdfund financed developers entering the OO and N markets. Hornby seems to be taking these on by pushing through their new models faster than the competitors can keep up, eg faster than the Rails terrier, DJM class 71, Dapol 61xx. I donít see Bachmann doing same, but then Hornby needs to get back into profit somehow.

If I was Dapol, Iíd see this as a good opportunity to start work on an N gauge GW mogul as they have done the cad for their OO model.
Whatever happens the N gauge market is not big enough for more than one developer to produce any loco other than a class 66. Iím not sure about the king. It still feels a bit niche even for GW modellers.

Cavalex and Accurascale have history, but as far as GT3 goes, itís another unproven developer so Iíd imagine folk would be very wary of the same happening, unless it was produced with a known partner.

Bob
« Last Edit: June 05, 2019, 10:18:33 AM by Bob G »

Offline Bealman

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Re: The end of DJ Models?
« Reply #67 on: June 05, 2019, 10:29:44 AM »
Bob, I agree with your points, but post #66 remains.
Vision over visibility. Bono, U2.

Offline Bartercode

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Re: The end of DJ Models?
« Reply #68 on: June 05, 2019, 10:33:17 AM »
I get the impression that Dave was struggling to find customers for many of his proposed models, even under crowdfunding. That suggests to me that a manufacturer might do well to steer clear of such models funded in a conventional way - there just wouldn't be the sales for them.
I'm not sure that I agree with this.  There have been a number of people, both on here and on rmweb who have posted that they would have signed up for an N gauge King, but weren't prepared to take the gamble regarding whether DJM would be able to deliver or not.  Were someone else to take the King over, I'm sure it would sell.  I'm also sure that the N gauge GW mogul would have sold.  Again people were posting saying that they were interested, but were waiting on delivery of the King first.

I was referring to the progress report dated 6th April on the DJM website. Most products, (but not the King) are way below target...

DJM N gauge product update April 2019
Here is a product update of all Ďin progressí DJM N gauge projects.
N gauge APT Current orders of 118 of 400 needed.
N gauge J94 current orders of 112 of 800 needed.
N gauge Mogul Current orders 236 of 1000 needed.
N gauge shark delivery November 19.
N gauge Mermaids Delivery November 19.
N gauge King minimum order number reached, tooling to commence imminently.
N gauge class 92 tooling imminent.
N gauge MK5 coaches licence granted.

Offline Shropshire Lad

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Re: The end of DJ Models?
« Reply #69 on: June 05, 2019, 10:42:45 AM »
I would probably buy an APT if there was a decent model of it in front of me or if I could see progress before I ordered it. Likewise if they were available now I would buy a couple of Sharks and some Mermaids.
I would crowdfund some Sharks and Mermaids but only if I thought there would be a reasonable chance of delivery, I certainly wouldn't blindly give DJM any money!

Offline Bob G

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Re: The end of DJ Models?
« Reply #70 on: June 05, 2019, 10:46:40 AM »
Bob, I agree with your points, but post #66 remains.
My post and post 66 are not exclusive.
Iím trying to judge the business potential not the man.
There have been too many comments about Daveís marmite personality and Iím trying to see past that, to where the market will go next.
We are where we are.
Bob

Offline DCCDave

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Re: The end of DJ Models?
« Reply #71 on: June 05, 2019, 10:47:21 AM »
Too many promises, not enough concrete results.

Two years ago I commented that Dave was producing 'vapourware' , with lots promised for N Gauge but little delivered. On both this forum and RMWeb. I was royally slated for it.

I feel somewhat vindicated now, but also deeply sad. I was at Tings in (I think 2013) when Dave announced the Class 17, and 23 both of which I was really excited for. I hope Dave can recoup some of his losses and sell the IP for these projects to someone with the wherewithal to deliver them, but given the dispute around the Class 17 I don't hold out much hope.

Business is tough, if it only depended on enthusiasm and vision then DJM would have been onto a winner, shame really.

Cheers
Dave
« Last Edit: June 05, 2019, 11:12:38 AM by DCCDave »

Offline njee20

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Re: The end of DJ Models?
« Reply #72 on: June 05, 2019, 10:51:50 AM »
Cavalex and Accurascale have history, but as far as GT3 goes, itís another unproven developer so Iíd imagine folk would be very wary of the same happening, unless it was produced with a known partner.

Yet people seem happy to throw money at KR Models, there doesn't (yet) seem to be that reluctance, and he's even more bristly than Dave!

Trust should be hard won and easily lost, but a lot of people don't seem to feel this!

Too many promises, not enough concrete results.

Two years ago I commented that Dave was producing 'vapourware' , with lots promised for N Gauge but little delivered. On both this forum and RMWeb. I was royally slated for it.

Dave has a huge number of detractors for whatever reason; his long lists of announcements and lack of delivery, missed deadlines, weird PR processes, lack of professionalism and 'matey' tone online etc etc, and plenty of people have been upfront for a long time in calling him out on what appears to be outright lies. There are a few posters on RMWeb who just seem to troll any thread about his products, which isn't helpful, but a lot of people have been warning about his conduct for a long time, and whilst some ardent supporters can be defensive I've not seen anyone royally slated for raising genuine concerns.

Offline Bealman

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Re: The end of DJ Models?
« Reply #73 on: June 05, 2019, 10:54:08 AM »
Indeed, to both the posts above the last one.

My post refers to the business, not the man, though in this case, I don't see how you could separate the two
« Last Edit: June 05, 2019, 10:55:17 AM by Bealman »
Vision over visibility. Bono, U2.

Offline Roy L S

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Re: The end of DJ Models?
« Reply #74 on: June 05, 2019, 11:10:33 AM »
I was thinking about this last night, and without wishing to be seen as trying to stir things up, a genuine question arose the answer to which I cannot reconcile.

IF there is little cash/liquidity left in the business, and no tooling has been started on any of the crowdfunding projects, what have deposits paid to date actually been spent on?

In the case of the King as an example, we know the research had already been done for the abortive Hattons model so new CADs were needed and we have seen a 3D printed dummy model from that, but if MOQ of 1000 were needed (and we know Digitrains' 200 got it over the line) that is circa 800 x £62.50 from crowdfunders which is £50k. If the factory has not yet been instructed to commence tooling has there really been any evidence of this amount all being spent, and if it has been, how was the second tranche of £50k when requested ever going to cover tooling costs reputed as being £100k, never mind production, shipping etc.

It just doesn't stack up to me, and based on this (unless I am missisng something which I could be) it feels like it should have been pretty clear to the company that there would not be enough cash in the pot after the second tranche to deliver this model.

The micro-accounts from July 2018 are too old to provide any clarity, so again, I am not saying my conclusions are necessarily correct but if they are not what am I missing??


Roy


 

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