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Author Topic: The end of DJ Models?  (Read 18863 times)

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Online Snowwolflair

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Re: The end of DJ Models?
« Reply #105 on: June 05, 2019, 06:24:45 PM »
Quote
Actually I am surprised that the Adminstrators are allowing Dave to make a statement on the website and haven't already put up a banner saying that the company is now in Admin and who the Admins are.


Roy

This, the securing of IP, and the fact the company address was moved well in advanced are not what I would expect and is why, especially with the administrators comments on interested parties, I am left wondering if this is a pre-pack.

Let's try again :(

There has been no 'securing of IP' -- zero, zilch, nada -- except in Mr Jones' head.

People who refer to 'Intellectual Property' (don't get me started on 'IP') need to understand understand that it's meaningless except as an umbrella term. Copyrights, trade marks, registered designs, unregistered design rights, moral rights, database rights, patents, trade secrets, or, god help us, geographical indications and plant breeders' rights, are all different and need to be discussed with specificity.

At a superficial glance there does not appear to be a trademark registration for 'DJ Models' -- nothing to be secured.

The recent design registrations are a complete nullity. They absolutely do not cover "the CAD". Even ten minutes googling will show what a folly they are [1]. Surely nobody plotting an acquisition would be that daft.

Any copyrights (which would include CAD) exist inherently and ab initio from the creation of the works. Copyrights do not need securing. Under the Berne Conventions they are inherent. We haven't witnessed any 'securing' of copyrights because in Europe there is no procedure for that. On a work by work basis, if DJ Models commissioned any CAD, the business (and therefore the Administrators) may have exclusive licences, or DJ Models may have taken ownership on delivery. The business may have sold it on, or some copyrights may be subject to a trade dispute. Or, if Mr Jones created any CAD, he may have licensed, transferred or sold it on to the business. We simply do not know.  Edit: I originally wrote Mr Jones where I should have said DJ Models :(

Unregistered design rights are inherent, like copyrights. It's possible that unregistered design rights may subsist in any moulds or tools that exist, but whether these are assets of the business appears to be a matter of some speculation and dispute. Another complicating factor would be jurisdiction, nudge nudge wink wink.

I'm not sure whether his moral right as creator not to have his work subjected to derogatory treatment would apply to registered or unregistered designs, but to be on the safe side it might not be a good idea to make 1:148 stop-motion pr0nz with a Mermaid. I haven't looked for patents (that used to be Peco, lol) and I'm guessing that we can neglect plant breeders' rights :)

Your speculation, esteemed Mr Lair [2], about pre-pack may or may not be true, but there exists no evidence in the form of 'securing IP'.

[1] Registered designs cover the novel, non-functional aspects of a product -- the shape and the decoration. But an accurate scale model is, by definition, not novel in any of those aspects. I suspect Mr Jones' registrations  would mostly only achieve protection for a model painted in exactly the puce, cyan, yellow, etc of those CAD renderings, if such a bizarre thing ever came into existence. Just because the UK's Intellectual Property Office takes your money and puts the picture you uploaded on its website, this does not constitute validation or endorsement; they will take registration money from anybody, and similarly they will take £48 from anybody who wants to object to any of Mr Jones' registrations on a Form DF19A.

[2] No sarcasm -- I really do admire your work immensely, and hope to imitate some of it soon (poorly) -- which is why I'm here, obsessively reading your old posts :D

I don't disagree with any of this, however, if the registrations he has made are sufficient to lodge a dispute resulting in a court order preventing the sale of products prior to resolution, that threat would almost certainly stop anyone trying to "use" any of his drawings, CAD tooling etc. as it would risk a significant financial loss.

As you understand the rules of IP, as I do from years of experience, you will recognise that the majority of IP, in all its forms, are used as the basis of a negotiation position and not as a breach leading to remedy.  The legal equivalent of a spanner in the works.

Online njee20

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Re: The end of DJ Models?
« Reply #106 on: June 05, 2019, 06:53:01 PM »
One day you’ll say “I stand corrected” or something, it’s truly miraculous the subjects you have an extensive knowledge of. You’ve worked in IT, CAD, run factories in China, been an IP expert (despite seemingly being schooled here!); many for your entire career, amazing!  :smiley-laughing:

I do agree with you that the order of events is curious, I’d have expected the first we knew to be a banner on the website or something. I await the 7pm announcement with curiosity.

Online Snowwolflair

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Re: The end of DJ Models?
« Reply #107 on: June 05, 2019, 07:01:27 PM »
One day you’ll say “I stand corrected” or something, it’s truly miraculous the subjects you have an extensive knowledge of. You’ve worked in IT, CAD, run factories in China, been an IP expert (despite seemingly being schooled here!); many for your entire career, amazing!  :smiley-laughing:


Its the result of being a Chartered Engineer a Fellow of the IET and having spent most of my forty year career here and in the Far East at the leading edge of technology, along with running companies public and private.

Having done all of that I would expect to know what I know.


Should I ask what your experience is.  :)

Offline portland-docks

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Re: The end of DJ Models?
« Reply #108 on: June 05, 2019, 07:05:09 PM »
well 7pm been and gone, still no "official announcement" on dj models website....
Visit my heritage Railway "moorside Valley Railway"

http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=9280.0

see first post for exhibition dates

Offline snitchthebudgie

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Re: The end of DJ Models?
« Reply #109 on: June 05, 2019, 07:15:25 PM »
[Should I ask what your experience is.  :)

I got a silver Blue Peter badge....   8)

Offline emjaybee

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Re: The end of DJ Models?
« Reply #110 on: June 05, 2019, 07:18:36 PM »
[Should I ask what your experience is.  :)

I got a silver Blue Peter badge....   8)

Nice!

I got a Gold Duke of Edinburgh's Award.
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Re: The end of DJ Models?
« Reply #111 on: June 05, 2019, 07:19:08 PM »
A few observations from the DJ website.

the King refers to "Pre order" and "deposit" and does not refer to crowdfunding.  We were purchasing part paid goods not investing on speculation.

"Your deposit is therefore invested in this tooling"  Can this be used legally as a statement of ownership of the tooling. Probably not but worth considering.

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Re: The end of DJ Models?
« Reply #112 on: June 05, 2019, 07:24:57 PM »
I don't disagree with any of this, however, if the registrations he has made are sufficient to lodge a dispute resulting in a court order preventing the sale of products prior to resolution, that threat would almost certainly stop anyone trying to "use" any of his drawings, CAD tooling etc. as it would risk a significant financial loss.

As you understand the rules of IP, as I do from years of experience, you will recognise that the majority of IP, in all its forms, are used as the basis of a negotiation position and not as a breach leading to remedy.  The legal equivalent of a spanner in the works.

As a veteran of community efforts against The SCO Group, I recognise that an entity that is inventing purported intellectual property rights and using them to frighten and bully others should be exposed and resisted and hung out to dry 'pour décourager les autres'.
It's almost peaceful. No need to believe in either side, or any side. There is no cause. There's only yourself. The belief is in your own precision.

Offline alibuchan

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Re: The end of DJ Models?
« Reply #113 on: June 05, 2019, 07:26:50 PM »
Does anyone else find the irony baffling, can’t get a model out, nor the end is nigh official announcement.

Online Snowwolflair

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Re: The end of DJ Models?
« Reply #114 on: June 05, 2019, 07:31:49 PM »
I don't disagree with any of this, however, if the registrations he has made are sufficient to lodge a dispute resulting in a court order preventing the sale of products prior to resolution, that threat would almost certainly stop anyone trying to "use" any of his drawings, CAD tooling etc. as it would risk a significant financial loss.

As you understand the rules of IP, as I do from years of experience, you will recognise that the majority of IP, in all its forms, are used as the basis of a negotiation position and not as a breach leading to remedy.  The legal equivalent of a spanner in the works.

As a veteran of community efforts against The SCO Group, I recognise that an entity that is inventing purported intellectual property rights and using them to frighten and bully others should be exposed and resisted and hung out to dry 'pour décourager les autres'.

I don't condone the morality just reflecting the reality.  :D

SCO vs IBM that brings back memories, fortunately as a spectator.  8)

Offline class37025

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Re: The end of DJ Models?
« Reply #115 on: June 05, 2019, 07:32:50 PM »
I am disappointed that Hattons are still listing DJM products a 'pre-orders', with the exception of

https://www.hattons.co.uk/171062/dj_models_dave_jones_djm_n_rs_100013c_mermaid_side_tipping_ballast_wagon_zjv_db989466_in_civil_engineers_dutch_grey_an/stockdetail.aspx

and

https://www.hattons.co.uk/171063/dj_models_dave_jones_djm_n_rs_100013d_mermaid_side_tipping_ballast_wagon_zjv_db989484_in_civil_engineers_dutch_grey_an/stockdetail.aspx

surely they must be aware of the situation, and yet nothing on their site that I can see to suggest that they are prepared to stop taking pre-orders for his items.

while they only take payment when items are shipped, it would be nice if they were a bit more up front with the chances, or not, of ever seeing these items.
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Re: The end of DJ Models?
« Reply #116 on: June 05, 2019, 07:36:34 PM »
Quite a lot of people have seen the “ep” of the 17, theres so much wrong with the body that to make it viable it would need about 30% or more of the cad modifying and re tooling so technically a new design not covered by ip anyway and big cost to retool..... so if someone wanted to do the 17 then IMO they would surely just do a complete recad with correct dimensions and curves and make their own tooling
« Last Edit: June 05, 2019, 07:45:07 PM by Only Me »



Offline acko22

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Re: The end of DJ Models?
« Reply #117 on: June 05, 2019, 07:51:34 PM »
Well when it was said 7pm guess thats not 7pm BST.......

Online njee20

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Re: The end of DJ Models?
« Reply #118 on: June 05, 2019, 08:01:22 PM »

Should I ask what your experience is.  :)

You're very welcome to, but it's irrelevant because I'm not the one who seems to know everything!

Well when it was said 7pm guess thats not 7pm BST.......

I don't know why but I actually thought he'd meet this deadline!

surely they must be aware of the situation, and yet nothing on their site that I can see to suggest that they are prepared to stop taking pre-orders for his items.

while they only take payment when items are shipped, it would be nice if they were a bit more up front with the chances, or not, of ever seeing these items.

Given this still hasn't been officially confirmed it would be inappropriate for Hatton's to have a notice saying "FYI - it looks like Dave's gone belly up, so don't order one of these".

Offline joe cassidy

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Re: The end of DJ Models?
« Reply #119 on: June 05, 2019, 08:04:49 PM »
[Should I ask what your experience is.  :)

I got a silver Blue Peter badge....   8)

I got a Gold Duke of Edinburgh's Award.


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