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Author Topic: Please help me signal my layout  (Read 1769 times)

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Offline Train Waiting

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Re: Please help me signal my layout
« Reply #30 on: January 31, 2020, 07:15:35 PM »
If its Helsby...

Thank you very much for this.  I don't know much about the Birkenhead Joint.

But with your kind guidance as to the location, I have found the signalling diagram:

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4761/40305624151_e44c1a56b1_b.jpg

I am relieved to see that there is indeed a signal in advance, after the trailing crossover.

An interesting location; I notice that the junction signals are now two separate semaphores (on the 'wrong' side of the line for sighting reasons) which is fairly typical of recent renewal work.

I'll have a look for pictures of the lever frame which, I expect, will be of LNWR origin with front 'drop handle' catches.

Thanks again and best wishes.

John



'Why does the Disney Castle work so well?  Because it borrows from reality without ever slipping into it.'

(Acknowledgement: John Goodall Esq, Architectural Editor, 'Country Life'.)

The Table-Top Railway is an attempt to create, in British 'N' gauge,  a 'semi-scenic' railway in the old-fashioned style, reminiscent of the layouts of the 1930s to the 1950s.

For the made-up background to the railway and list of characters, please see here: https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=38281.msg607991#msg607991

Offline springwood

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Re: Please help me signal my layout
« Reply #31 on: January 31, 2020, 07:39:36 PM »
Yes, Helsby is my local station and indeed where I live! Frodsham (not Fordham!) is the next station along, travelling east. We have a lovely signal box on the 'V' of the junction, dating from around 1849 and it does have an  original 45 lever London and North Western Railway Tumbler frame.

Robin

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Re: Please help me signal my layout
« Reply #32 on: January 31, 2020, 07:40:46 PM »
Google helsby railway map then see Cheshire area railway services john. Plenty of dmus. Class 25, 20, 37, 40 and 47 plus odd 45 llandudno manchester mk1 haulage plus stanlow oil tanks, vda van vba for port sunlight and bennington south wirral and Dee peninsula. Plus diverted shotton steel could trains would have used the line

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Re: Please help me signal my layout
« Reply #33 on: January 31, 2020, 07:46:25 PM »
Google helsby signal box theres an excellent signalling diagram. Chris

Offline springwood

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Re: Please help me signal my layout
« Reply #34 on: January 31, 2020, 08:05:46 PM »
John (Train waiting) has already given us a link to it!

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Re: Please help me signal my layout
« Reply #35 on: January 31, 2020, 08:08:26 PM »
Yes also other useful pieces of info. Wish your project well

Offline springwood

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Re: Please help me signal my layout
« Reply #36 on: February 05, 2020, 03:43:20 PM »
Please let me know of any questions you have and whether or not you wish to think about signalling the branch line.  The really important thing to consider is, when a train is moving from the branch bay platform to the down main..

John, certainly could do with help on signalling the branch line! Had an exchange of emails and a brief telecon with the technical chap at Peco, but without much success! The easy bit is a starter at the branchline station itself to allow trains to exit the station. The 'problem' area is what to do at the end of the bay (on the mainline station)..I am told that as there is a trailling point involved, I could not have a bracketed starter signal to control trains leaving to continue down the branch line or diverging onto the down main.  :hmmm:

Can anyone help me here. Clearly I don't want to end up with a 'forest' of signals..it needs to be really simplified - particularly as I might try and mechanise them. Thank you

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Re: Please help me signal my layout
« Reply #37 on: February 05, 2020, 04:28:30 PM »
You planning to use colour light or semaphore please ?

Offline springwood

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Re: Please help me signal my layout
« Reply #38 on: February 05, 2020, 07:44:13 PM »
semaphore

Offline DarrwestLU6

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Re: Please help me signal my layout
« Reply #39 on: February 05, 2020, 08:18:10 PM »
Hi @springwood - you mentioned working semaphores, you have two options:

1 - Easy option - Buy Dapol upper quadrant home and distant signals - pricey but work well. Requires a 12v DC supply to the semaphore, and a push-to-make switch to make it move to on or off. https://www.dapol.co.uk/shop/model-accessories/motorised-signals - you can pick them up for less than shown on the Dapol website at your favourite retailer, e.g. Hattons sell them for 27.50: https://hattonshobbies.com/products/signal-motorised-lms-home-upper-quadrant-ex-nsign3?variant=12516094115934

One thing to note- Make sure you follow the NEW instructions: https://www.dapol.co.uk/index.php?route=blog/post&post_id=37

2 - Harder option, if you have more experience with modelling, slightly cheaper - build the signals using kits (many available) and automate using a wire and servo hidden below the baseboard. Many kits available. See for example: https://www.heathcote-electronics.co.uk/servo.html

Hope that is useful.
Regards
Darren
Hogwarts to King's Cross - My layout under construction: http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=43358.msg536504#msg536504

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Re: Please help me signal my layout
« Reply #40 on: February 05, 2020, 08:23:30 PM »
Maybe a home starter signal at the end of the platform

Offline Train Waiting

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Re: Please help me signal my layout
« Reply #41 on: February 05, 2020, 09:28:36 PM »
The 'problem' area is what to do at the end of the bay (on the mainline station)..I am told that as there is a trailling point involved, I could not have a bracketed starter signal to control trains leaving to continue down the branch line or diverging onto the down main.  :hmmm:

Who told you this, please?

Will there be passenger movements onto the main line from the bay or just light engines, goods trains and empty stock?  Your answer to this is important for the type of signal likely to be used.

Best wishes.

John
'Why does the Disney Castle work so well?  Because it borrows from reality without ever slipping into it.'

(Acknowledgement: John Goodall Esq, Architectural Editor, 'Country Life'.)

The Table-Top Railway is an attempt to create, in British 'N' gauge,  a 'semi-scenic' railway in the old-fashioned style, reminiscent of the layouts of the 1930s to the 1950s.

For the made-up background to the railway and list of characters, please see here: https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=38281.msg607991#msg607991

Offline springwood

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Re: Please help me signal my layout
« Reply #42 on: February 05, 2020, 10:28:02 PM »

Who told you this, please?

Will there be passenger movements onto the main line from the bay..?
Hi John,

It was the technical dept at Peco (i.e. Andrew Beard).
Despite my explaining things clearly and in some detail, his email responses were quite the opposite and very brief..so much so that they immediately prompted further questions! He offered to speak to me on the phone - and we did - but again he was economical with his words of advice and didn't have a lot of time for me. Consequently, I came away more confused!

In answer to your question re passenger movements, have to say I am not 100% sure, but I think I would have to keep the option open to have such movements, albeit they will be few and far between. Big question, what difference does it make to the signalling?

Offline Train Waiting

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Re: Please help me signal my layout
« Reply #43 on: February 06, 2020, 09:43:03 AM »
Super, Robin, thank you.

Peco are normally very helpful and Mr Beard is certainly knowledgeable.  In this case he maybe does not have a full appreciation of what you are trying to achieve.

No Passenger Train Movements from the Bay Platform to the Down Main Line
Please imagine you are in the cab of your favourite locomotive and it is standing close to the buffer stops in the bay platform.  You walk to the other end of the locomotive and are ready for a journey along the branch line.  The branch starting signal is a simple upper quadrant semaphore, situated just beyond the facing crossover to the down main (you quoted Peco calling this a trailing point):

The easy bit is a starter at the branchline station itself to allow trains to exit the station. The 'problem' area is what to do at the end of the bay (on the mainline station)..I am told that as there is a trailling point involved, I could not have a bracketed starter signal to control trains leaving to continue down the branch line or diverging onto the down main.

In this direction (down the branch line) it is actually a facing crossover.

The signal clears and your driver gives a toot on the horn.  Taking power, the locomotives approaches the crossover and you notice a little ground signal situated to the side of it (your driver might call this a 'tommy dot', tommy dod', or if a Southern man, a 'dummy') which controls movements over the crossover.  This is fine as these are non-passenger movements.

The locomotive passes the starting signal and enters the section.  At a place of your choosing, either before or after the tunnel (the joy of a model railway!) you notice the driver shutting off power and you then pass a distant signal in the 'on' position.  Looking at the signal, you observe that it has only a yellow aspect glass.  Noticing your look of surprise, the driver says, "That's a fixed distant signal and can't pull 'off'."  A couple of minutes later you come to a stop at the signal protecting the branch line terminus.

Let's leave the signalling of the terminus until later to give you time to work out how it will be operated.

Leaving the terminus in the up direction. you will again pass a fixed distant signal at a place of your choosing, either before or after the tunnel.  Signals are pretty things on a model railway and you can choose an arrangement that looks pleasing to the eye.  A few minutes later, you come to the branch up home signal, situated before the crossover and before the branch down starting signal.  When the signaller observes the driver has the train well under control, s/he clears the branch home signal and you run slowly into the bay platform, stopping clear of the buffer stop.

Passenger Train Movements from the Bay Platform to the Down Main Line 

Almost the same as before except that there would be two starting signals before the facing crossover.  These could be arranged as a bracket semaphore signal, with the higher arm for the most important route and the lower arm for the lesser route (sometimes, both routes are of the same importance and the two arms are at the same height).  You can choose what arrangement you like although I'd be inclined to make the arm controlling access to the down main line the highest.  To make the signal operation much easier, as this is a fairly modern layout, you could have two simple semaphore signals, located side by side, as at your local station.

I hope this helps and should be glad to discuss.

Best wishes.

John
'Why does the Disney Castle work so well?  Because it borrows from reality without ever slipping into it.'

(Acknowledgement: John Goodall Esq, Architectural Editor, 'Country Life'.)

The Table-Top Railway is an attempt to create, in British 'N' gauge,  a 'semi-scenic' railway in the old-fashioned style, reminiscent of the layouts of the 1930s to the 1950s.

For the made-up background to the railway and list of characters, please see here: https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=38281.msg607991#msg607991

Offline flyingsignalman

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Re: Please help me signal my layout
« Reply #44 on: February 06, 2020, 10:43:44 AM »
Yes, Helsby is my local station and indeed where I live! Frodsham (not Fordham!) is the next station along, travelling east. We have a lovely signal box on the 'V' of the junction, dating from around 1849 and it does have an  original 45 lever London and North Western Railway Tumbler frame.

Robin

Regarding Frodsham Junction signal box; it was opened in the early years of the 20th century and is a LNWR type 5 ( Helsby is a type 4).
The lever frame was replaced last year by a panel in connection with the reopening of the line to Runcorn.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2020, 10:44:59 AM by flyingsignalman »

 

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