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Author Topic: Positioning ground signals, if they are needed.  (Read 413 times)

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Offline Phoenix

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Positioning ground signals, if they are needed.
« on: December 29, 2018, 01:51:46 PM »
Hi All,

Just looking for a little advice please.

This is the yard area and signal box on my little Windmill Hill layout. There is a level crossing, but the gates have been removed for "attention" .....



I recently bought these ground signals, but am not sure if they are needed or not, and if they are needed, where they should go.



Does anyone have any ideas please ?

All best wishes
Kevin

 :beers:

Offline Train Waiting

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Re: Positioning ground signals, if they are needed.
« Reply #1 on: December 29, 2018, 03:22:53 PM »
Hello Kevin

It's always nice to see pictures of Windmill Hill.

I have had fun looking back through your thread to see pictures of the yard and have convinced myself that there is not a siding.  Without a siding to shunt in and out of, I don't think that ground signal would be prototypical in this location.  If you fancy signals for the layout, a stop signal each side of the level crossing would look good.

But, importantly, it's your layout so you can have what you want and these 'Tommy Dots' are very nice...

All the very best.

John
'Why does the Disney Castle work so well?  Because it borrows from reality without ever slipping into it.'

(Acknowledgement: John Goodall Esq, Architectural Editor, 'Country Life'.)

The Table-Top Railway is an attempt to create, in British 'N' gauge,  a 'semi-scenic' railway in the old-fashioned style, reminiscent of the layouts of the 1920s to the 1950s.

Offline Phoenix

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Re: Positioning ground signals, if they are needed.
« Reply #2 on: December 29, 2018, 04:11:45 PM »
Hi John,

Many thanks for that  :D

Mainly on the bottom line it will be a loco + autocoach running anti clockwise into the tunnel, so I thought maybe one at the tunnel mouth, or  the wooden crossing, but can't see either would be much use, and there really is no space by the level crossing for anything.

They look nice, but maybe not here  :hmmm:

Hope you are all well,

best wishes,
Kevin

 :beers:

Offline njee20

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Re: Positioning ground signals, if they are needed.
« Reply #3 on: December 29, 2018, 06:16:48 PM »
As John said, ground signals generally control movements out of sidings, or off the main running lines. Since you seem to just have a single track any signals would be unlikely to be ground signals.

Offline Phoenix

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Re: Positioning ground signals, if they are needed.
« Reply #4 on: December 30, 2018, 01:52:34 AM »
Thank you njee20,

I was not sure what to do about signalling, if anything, so I appreciate your help  :thumbsup:

I think I will leave the yard as it is, and just get the level crossing back in.

All best wishes
Kevin

 :beers:

Offline edwin_m

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Re: Positioning ground signals, if they are needed.
« Reply #5 on: December 30, 2018, 09:51:32 AM »
Ground signals are also found on running lines, for example where locos/trains have to reverse during shunting and to control the entry to sidings.  But I agree there would be none where there is no pointwork. 

Offline Newportnobby

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Re: Positioning ground signals, if they are needed.
« Reply #6 on: January 17, 2019, 12:23:26 PM »
As @Phoenix has very kindly donated his ground signals to me (thanks again, Kevin) I need the help with placement now. There is a section at 18.55 in this helpful vid.................



and here is a (poor)pic of what I have..............


I understand from the vid the horizontal red band signifies danger but the ones with the stripe leading from top left to bottom right mean what please? Are they directional? What would be the double headed signal signify please?
TIA

Online GrahamG

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Re: Positioning ground signals, if they are needed.
« Reply #7 on: January 17, 2019, 02:23:14 PM »
Ground disc signals placed one above the other signify different routes, one per disc. When at 45 degrees it is displaying a proceed indication, when horizontal it signifies stop. When mounted one above the other the top disc is for the futhest route to the left with lowest disc being for the route futhest to the right of the route of the top disc. Hope that makes sense.
Graham

Offline Newportnobby

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Re: Positioning ground signals, if they are needed.
« Reply #8 on: January 17, 2019, 09:14:50 PM »
Thanks, Graham. I get the 'proceed' bit but in my own examples do they refer to LH points only and a RH point would be shown as the red bar running from top right to bottom left? My knowledge of signalling is worse than my knowledge about DCC or multi coloured worms :dunce:

Online GrahamG

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Re: Positioning ground signals, if they are needed.
« Reply #9 on: January 17, 2019, 10:46:01 PM »
Hi Newportnobby,

The way the diagonal line goes (\ or /) relates to whether the signalling is upper or lower quadrant as in main semaphore signal arms. So in the picture on the front of the BR Signalling film, the disc signal is lower quadrant and the examples you have drawn on your post are upper quadrant.

Where you have more than one mounted vertically they generally refer to different routes and they can be to either side of the line the train is on. I would think that generally a single one would be used for leaving a siding where perhaps there is only one route available. More than one might be used on a main running line to allow a train to set back over to the opposite line or to shunt back into a siding off the same line.

Several times during the rules part of my train driving course the instructor would often say at the end of a particular section "However, there are exceptions", so even what I've said above my vary region to region.

Graham

Offline Newportnobby

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Re: Positioning ground signals, if they are needed.
« Reply #10 on: January 18, 2019, 10:06:06 AM »
Aha. I see. I think. Shame it's not as easy as the red bar showing direction.
Still, you have given me some clue and I thank you for that.

Offline Train Waiting

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Re: Positioning ground signals, if they are needed.
« Reply #11 on: January 18, 2019, 02:19:25 PM »
Hello Mick

I think Graham's explanations are excellent.  Thank you Graham.

The ground signals you have are what might be called late-models from the semaphore signalling era.

Going back in time you would have seen what looked like miniature signal arms, or even more interesting, something that rotated by 90o to show a red or green plate.  There were lots of other oddities as well such as a hinged plate.  In some ways, these hark back to some of the earliest types of fixed signals.

The red band on your signals can be considered to be a stylised representation of a stop signal arm.

They will look wonderful on your layout!

All the best.

John
'Why does the Disney Castle work so well?  Because it borrows from reality without ever slipping into it.'

(Acknowledgement: John Goodall Esq, Architectural Editor, 'Country Life'.)

The Table-Top Railway is an attempt to create, in British 'N' gauge,  a 'semi-scenic' railway in the old-fashioned style, reminiscent of the layouts of the 1920s to the 1950s.

Offline chrism

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Re: Positioning ground signals, if they are needed.
« Reply #12 on: January 18, 2019, 04:21:34 PM »
There were lots of other oddities as well such as a hinged plate.  In some ways, these hark back to some of the earliest types of fixed signals.

The one I like best is Tom Rolt's mention of the GWRs first fixed signal. Located outside Reading, it comprised a ball pulled up a pole on a rope and pulley when the station was clear for a train to enter - but with no positive indication of danger.
Daniel Gooch's March 1840 regulations said "A Signal Ball will be seen at the entrance to Reading Station when the Line is right for the Train to go in. If the Ball is not visible the Train must not pass it." ;D

Offline Train Waiting

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Re: Positioning ground signals, if they are needed.
« Reply #13 on: January 18, 2019, 04:35:41 PM »
There were lots of other oddities as well such as a hinged plate.  In some ways, these hark back to some of the earliest types of fixed signals.

The one I like best is Tom Rolt's mention of the GWRs first fixed signal. Located outside Reading, it comprised a ball pulled up a pole on a rope and pulley when the station was clear for a train to enter - but with no positive indication of danger.
Daniel Gooch's March 1840 regulations said "A Signal Ball will be seen at the entrance to Reading Station when the Line is right for the Train to go in. If the Ball is not visible the Train must not pass it." ;D

Brilliant, thank you.  And ball signals remained in use in the USA until fairly recent times.  I'm not sure if these survivors were just in New England though.  And, of course, the term 'highball' is commonplace in the US.
'Why does the Disney Castle work so well?  Because it borrows from reality without ever slipping into it.'

(Acknowledgement: John Goodall Esq, Architectural Editor, 'Country Life'.)

The Table-Top Railway is an attempt to create, in British 'N' gauge,  a 'semi-scenic' railway in the old-fashioned style, reminiscent of the layouts of the 1920s to the 1950s.

 

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