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Author Topic: Manchester to Liverpool - diesels  (Read 1314 times)

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Offline swisstrains

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Re: Manchester to Liverpool - diesels
« Reply #30 on: December 22, 2018, 11:26:54 AM »
I have no intention of getting involved in this increasingly bad tempered discussion other than to say that I agree with much of what ďkuritaĒ says. Some have said that the number of overbridges could have been a factor in not electrifying this line but that belief is obviously not held by Network Rail as the Manchester-Liverpool via Warrington Central route is high on the list of lines scheduled for electrification. Things could well change but I believe that we could see some activity in the next 5 years.
All things being equal I think this route would have been electrified before the Chat Moss route had the latter not provided such an increase in operating flexibility. I think Network Rail were looking more at linking together existing electrified lines for their own benefit than providing a better customer experience. Electrifying the 15 mile section between Newton-le-Willows and Manchester gave the city increased access to the WCML both north and south with subsequent increased diversion potential.
Itís a pity that 3rd Rail electrification is now frowned upon by Network Rail as an extension of the Merseyrail network from Hunts Cross to Manchester would have been a cheaper solution. Class 319 units could have operated on 25KV from Lime Street to Allerton/Hunts Cross changing to 3rd rail for the rest of the journey to Manchester.
John

Offline NeMo

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Re: Manchester to Liverpool - diesels
« Reply #31 on: December 22, 2018, 12:18:08 PM »
But now its time to take the rose tinted glasses off! As @exmouthcraig points out as a country we are skint hence how many billions are we in debt?

Sigh. National economies, their debts, and their deficits do not operate like your personal bank balance. The right wing media (like the Daily Mail) likes to trumpet the idea that the country is bankrupt because it suits their agenda, and frankly, it goes back at least as far as Margaret Thatchers admonition that we needed to run the country like one's own household budget, not spending more than we earn.

It's easy to explain; it's easy to understand; it sounds completely reasonable; and it's also completely wrong.

Here's a summary (in Forbes) taken from a recent IMF research paper into government debt:

"Barrett finds that the term structure of government debt matters considerably. Governments that have large amounts of short-term debt have greater financing needs, and this reduces their debt capacity. It also increases their default risk, since there is always a small risk that debt cannot be refinanced at rollover, and they roll debt over more frequently than countries with higher amounts of long-dated debt. The U.K., which is the principal test country in this paper, has a median debt maturity since 1960 of 8-10 years, which is long by advanced country standards. Using this as a parameter, Barrett estimates a safe debt/GDP level for the U.K. of 140%."

The rules that apply to you and me simply don't apply to advanced economies with long histories of paying their debts (or perhaps more accurately, servicing that debt). The debt itself becomes a tradable commodity, and by borrowing money now, national governments can pay for expensive projects that will only pay for themselves (perhaps indirectly) across decades.

The UK debt and deficit (two different things) have been causes for concern in some ways, but they have also been used as an extremely effective tool for justifying spending cuts. All a government needs to do is suggest the UK is spending more than it earns, and therefore needs to cut back, just like you or I would do in the same situation.

Building railways, whether electrified or otherwise, almost never pays for itself. Hasn't done for 150 years at least. But what new railways do provide (in the right places) is capacity for moving people and freight very quickly, and that, in turn, is what generates money (and ultimately, tax revenues).

Furthermore, if the UK can afford expensive infrastructure projects (by running up debt) whereas other countries cannot, then the UK can more quickly create the economic and logistical environment needed for new industries and the resulting inward investment. There's no point waiting until the UK can afford, say, HS2, if that delay means that foreign investors go elsewhere because they find easier access to labour, affordable housing, freight capacity, or whatever.

It's rather like foreign aid budgets. People get very cross when they hear X billion is being sent to India or wherever, especially after they hear about homeless people in London or whatever. But that foreign aid isn't just money lobbed over a wall, but spent carefully to create new markets and ensure political stability. Foreign aid is tiny (0.7% GDP) but has the potential to do real good that can ultimately pay for itself many times over, whether in new markets for UK products, or by preventing the greater expense of military action when poor countries slip into anarchy.

I know politics isn't popular with NGF moderators, which is why I'm sticking to economics here. My main aim is to ask people not to fall for the idea the UK economy works in the same way as their household budget, and instead go away and read some objective, unbiassed analyses of how national economies work and why overspending can actually be a good thing for countries, even if it's a terrible thing for a person.

Cheers, NeMo
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Online red_death

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Re: Manchester to Liverpool - diesels
« Reply #32 on: December 22, 2018, 09:16:24 PM »
That is a really good post Nemo!

In the wider point about pollution as Gareth and I pointed out, with a shift from diesel to electric all your doing on a secondary line is moving the point of emissions from train to power plant. Increasing efficiency through hybrids using regenerative tech for batteries is probably a better choice initially.

When considering electric traction you have to consider the power generation profile, the local air pollution issues, the existing infrastructure and trains (building new trains will probably have a larger impact compared to replacing old) etc you can't just say electric is best therefore fire away and electrify everything.


 cheers mike

Ps accusing people of being daily mail reading fascists doesn't really help!



Offline Newportnobby

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Re: Manchester to Liverpool - diesels
« Reply #33 on: December 22, 2018, 09:22:45 PM »
Global Moderator Comment There is a very good discussion going on in this thread but some are making it personal by name calling so if we can knock that aspect on the head it can only improve

Offline NeMo

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Re: Manchester to Liverpool - diesels
« Reply #34 on: December 22, 2018, 09:29:54 PM »
That is a really good post Nemo!
Thanks!

In the wider point about pollution as Gareth and I pointed out, with a shift from diesel to electric all your doing on a secondary line is moving the point of emissions from train to power plant.
True, but thermal efficiency comes into play here. Even if your locomotive burns the precise same fuel as the power station, the power station will be anything up to twice as efficient. So simply removing the fossil fuel burning part of the process to a large, stationary power plant rather than a small, relatively inefficient one on-board the locomotive reduces the amount of fuel needed per joule of energy used.

On top of that, electrification is usually better than burning diesel because most UK power stations burn some sort of gas, rather than diesel or even oil. Gas produces fewer pollutants (such as sulphur and nitrogen oxides) and no particulates. Given we're now at something like 20% nuclear and 20% renewables in the UK electricity generation mix, your 25kV supply will be a lot cleaner than any electricity generated by burning diesel in a locomotive.

Finally, a diesel locomotive has to lug around a bunch of fuel as well as a generator, whereas an electric locomotive doesn't, and all that extra weight means more fuel has to be consumed just to move the loco, let alone its train.

So all else being equal, electrification is always cleaner and more economical in terms of fuel.

Ps accusing people of being daily mail reading fascists doesn't really help!
Don't think I did, did I?
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Offline njee20

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Re: Manchester to Liverpool - diesels
« Reply #35 on: December 22, 2018, 09:35:48 PM »
Nah, not you, the OP. I agree with others that your post was excellent.

Online exmouthcraig

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Re: Manchester to Liverpool - diesels
« Reply #36 on: December 22, 2018, 11:06:12 PM »
The simple fact is OUR country is skint! Pathetic excuses if you want to view it that way but quite honestly 65million people would rather see our ailing NHS, police force, Fire service, MOD and education sectors receiving the hundreds of billions of pounds that 1 person can't accept we don't have or can be bothered to squander on quite honestly a pointless exercise.

Sigh.  I didn't realize that I wandered into the Daily Mail academy of higher economics chaired by bitter old men with onions tied to their belts yelling at clouds.

So, let's take everything you say as true. Let's pretend for a moment that your oversimplified, catastrophising, economically illiterate, navel-gazing, view of the world is true.  Therefore, are we to conclude that the current electrification being undertaken by network rail is pointless and wrong?  Is that what you are trying to say?

The UK may be 'skint' now (it isn't, but let's go with it), but it certainly wasnt during most of the 2000s when the pound was soaring, interest rates were low, and yet the price of petro energy was soaring and both foreign and domestic finance were in sharp competition for such fixed-income-stream projects. as such, there may indeed be a very good engineering, priority, or other reason why this particular project was not undertaken then... or it might just be incompetence.  i dont know, which is why i out of genuine curiousity asked the question.  but the cumulative reality that this project has not been undertaken in 70 or so years since the end of the 2nd world war is nothing less than utterly pathetic, whatever the reasons.  its a travesty.

im done here.   please by all means don't let me interrupt the self-congratulatory jobsworthy 'common sense' of the experts here.  maybe if i come back some day you can all tell me how due to the kaiser the escalators dont work or due to the second carnatic war buying a ticket from point a to point b can still consists of a conversation at a ticket kiosk where a person tells you that if they split the ticket into a to c and then c to b you can get the same train seat for cheaper.

I object to being referred to as any of these. Just because we are giving you the reasons why it's still run by diesel trains and you refuse to accept those reasons. There's cleverer people then I that have given you vast in-depth reasons yet because it's something YOU object to we are all wrong.

Typical spoilt child syndrome. This is a friendly knowledge wealthy forum of which every question ever asked gets answered with great depth, it's not about stirring up arguments and petty name calling!!

Offline acko22

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Re: Manchester to Liverpool - diesels
« Reply #37 on: December 22, 2018, 11:36:11 PM »
But now its time to take the rose tinted glasses off! As @exmouthcraig points out as a country we are skint hence how many billions are we in debt?
National economies, their debts, and their deficits do not operate like your personal bank balance.

I would agree they don't work the same, but they have an effect especially for those that work for the in a public service and are effected by   the fact there isn't as much money available! my military pension (which use to be one of the best going in any front line public position) in one swoop lost its worth in the region of 250k, and if that just me as one person how many more are losing out?
Forces pension are public debts, so money the country owes me so if they can not afford to pay me that 250k as part of my pension then by default there must be some issues there regarding what money we have available in the bank! (And for clarity to stop anyone making it political there has been 2 pension changes during my time in service but opposite parties and both have screwed me out of fairly earned pension money)

But back to the original topic and ignoring financial issues of if / can we afford it.

As @swisstrains this route was at one stage high on the to do list for electrification, however it is very far from it now the priority in Northern England is the Cross Pennine routes that have much more importance not just locally but nationally. The truth is the southern Manchester - Liverpool corridor is a second grade route and to carry out any major works on it will have limited improvement and not justify the cost to benefit ratio.
This is why when choosing which Manchester - Liverpool route to electrify when it was a choice of one or the other, the route via Newton-Le-Willows was chosen as it was cheaper and actually gave many times more benefits, not just locally but nationally. I live near Patricroft on the electrified route and I have noticed just how busier the route has become and not just local services all over the country. At the moment numerous of these are diverted services while the Bolton corridor is completed and operating. But the paths that will be coming free are already filled with other services and soon to be the busiest route through Manchester for freight flows!

As I have said previously there are other technologies coming of age that are cheaper and have a greater benefit not just on a single line but regionally, as I previously noted the Hyrail trains by Alstom that are now on order in Germany for the price of electrifying this one route with extremely limited impact and benefit you could have a much greener fleet to serve not just that route but dozens of suitable routes.

So spending the sums we are on about here makes zero sense when for the same amount we can benefit so many more people and places, with a green zero emissions train which is in our grasp and showing it is capable of what is needed. We need to stop looking at the past solutions and to the long term solutions which are out there and are proving themselves.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2018, 09:32:10 AM by acko22 »

Offline Intercity

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Re: Manchester to Liverpool - diesels
« Reply #38 on: December 23, 2018, 01:00:51 AM »
Well I have nothing to add, but will say by the thread title I expected a conversation about class 40s and Peaks on Transpennine services and 31s and 37s on club trains.

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Offline Newportnobby

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Re: Manchester to Liverpool - diesels
« Reply #39 on: December 23, 2018, 09:21:37 AM »
The right wing media (like the Daily Mail)


Ps accusing people of being daily mail reading fascists doesn't really help!
Don't think I did, did I?

Yes you did, I spotted that also

To take Nemo's comment and exaggerate 'right wing' to 'Fascism' is both insulting and unfair.
Stop the personal comments or this thread will be locked.

Offline njee20

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Re: Manchester to Liverpool - diesels
« Reply #40 on: December 23, 2018, 09:32:58 AM »
Yes Iím really struggling with that. I thought it was Kuritaís opening paragraph which was more insulting, suggesting Craig was a Daily Mail reading whatever.

Random thread. The OP appeared to just want to create some friction, based on all of his posts. Iím all for decent debate, but someone just shouting their opinion loudly and repeatedly and insulting everyone else is a bit pointless.

Online crewearpley40

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Re: Manchester to Liverpool - diesels
« Reply #41 on: December 23, 2018, 09:48:28 AM »
i would like us to stick to trains and remember good old days, not go on about politics please

intercity  pointed out some ideas and if it carries on into politics maybe the moderators can please keep an eye out - its becoming a little frustrating reading

Offline Newportnobby

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Re: Manchester to Liverpool - diesels
« Reply #42 on: December 23, 2018, 09:49:10 AM »
Iím all for decent debate, but someone just shouting their opinion loudly and repeatedly and insulting everyone else is a bit pointless.

Agreed

i would like us to stick to trains and remember good old days, not go on about politics please

intercity  pointed out some ideas and if it carries on into politics maybe the moderators can please keep an eye out - its becoming a little frustrating reading

There is an inevitability some politics may creep into a thread about why such and such has not been done over the years but as long as it is impartial cross-party comment with no bias then, to my mind, that has to be accepted. Fear not - Nobby is watching!
« Last Edit: December 23, 2018, 09:52:14 AM by Newportnobby, Reason: Response to crewearpley40 added »

Online crewearpley40

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Re: Manchester to Liverpool - diesels
« Reply #43 on: December 23, 2018, 09:55:16 AM »
we are entitled to opinions, agree and have views on the route, its history, why or why not the line should or should not be electrified, but its become political, boring, frustarting and not  the place for discussion. i have fond memories of lots of different classes and trains on the routes mentioned
and intercity mentions :

 I expected a conversation about class 40s and Peaks on Transpennine services and 31s and 37s on club trains.


remember class 47 /4s on the newcastle / scarborough - liverpools with mk 2s - those were the days
« Last Edit: December 23, 2018, 09:57:33 AM by crewearpley40 »

Offline acko22

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Re: Manchester to Liverpool - diesels
« Reply #44 on: December 23, 2018, 10:03:51 AM »
remember class 47 /4s on the newcastle / scarborough - liverpools with mk 2s - those were the days

Errr, I remember none of that for me it's been well whats on there now!  :worried:

 

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