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Author Topic: Revolution Re-runs  (Read 1291 times)

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Offline njee20

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Re: Revolution Re-runs
« Reply #15 on: September 10, 2018, 12:08:25 PM »
The real rakes are 2:1 blue:green, so I'd counsel against the reverse in model form.

Offline red_death

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Re: Revolution Re-runs
« Reply #16 on: September 10, 2018, 12:22:55 PM »
As Nick says the Greenergy rakes are 2:1 in real life.  We'll include them.

Cheers, Mike



Online Mustermark

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Re: Revolution Re-runs
« Reply #17 on: September 10, 2018, 12:29:27 PM »
Personally, I think an increase in price is in order. The philosophy of crowd funding is that the development costs get covered by backers, and in return they get the first output at a discount. Subsequent production and general release is at a more profitable (but hopefully competitive) price. It works like this on Kickstarter with other projects Iíve backed. No reason for this to be different.

Those who helped to crowd fund might be justified in expecting the price to go up, with the saving they made reflecting payback for the Ďriskí of being a backer. And I hope that RevolutioN (and/or Rapido) can capitalize on the success, generate more income, and keep up the good work of bringing more British N Gauge models to the market.

£365 11-car Pendo still seems like a bargain compared to say, for example, the £480 pricing proposed for the Dapol prototype 10-car HST, or the ~£800 for DJModelsí 14-car APT-P. Having lovingly attempted to make one, Iím definitely up for the HST at Dapolís proposed pricing!

For the TEAs to be competitive with Farish at ~£40 seems pretty reasonable too, especially compared to the eBay prices!

I already bought three Pendos that I canít really justify in ďReading during the early 70sĒ but now I want Virgin Pride!  ::) 

And, of course, a Class 128 Parcels that will fit my era/location!  :D

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Offline Buzzard

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Re: Revolution Re-runs
« Reply #18 on: September 10, 2018, 12:42:52 PM »
The TEAs we're in negotiation with Rapido about and ultimately some of the cost may depend on whether we need to amend any of the tooling or make assembly more costly to do other variants eg different catwalks/discharge gear/ladders.  We'll definitely do more EWS and we've suggested some others eg Petrochem Carless, the new VTG light grey batch, VTG in FL green ie no FL logo, the other 3 Enviro-blue slogans that we didn't do in the first batch but I think what we'll do is stick a poll up later this week or next on our website to run for say a month asking people which versions they'd like.

Please could the poll cover all builds and liveries?

Offline PaulCheffus

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Re: Revolution Re-runs
« Reply #19 on: September 10, 2018, 12:55:32 PM »
[quote author=Mustermark link=topic=42509.msg527591#msg527591
£365 11-car Pendo still seems like a bargain compared to say, for example, the £480 pricing proposed for the Dapol prototype 10-car HST, or the ~£800 for DJModelsí 14-car APT-P. Having lovingly attempted to make one, Iím definitely up for the HST at Dapolís proposed pricing!
[/quote]

Hi

HST - £440 not £480
APT based on the cut down version is £550

So the Pendolino price of £365 is very reasonable.

Chers

Paul

Offline Buzzard

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Re: Revolution Re-runs
« Reply #20 on: September 10, 2018, 04:27:02 PM »
So the Pendolino price of £365 is very reasonable.

For an 11 car DC set I agree.

Personally for 9 and 11 car DC sets I'd be asking £355 and £395 respectively.  This being around £100 more than the early bird price of the first run.  However I'm not in that position but given the prices on a particular auction site I think that those figures are still reasonable i.e. I'd pay that much.

Will now be hiding behind the sofa.

Offline NGS-PO

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Re: Revolution Re-runs
« Reply #21 on: September 10, 2018, 07:29:03 PM »
By way of further comparison, Rails are pre-ordering the latest Western Pullman in the reversed blue/grey at £322, for 6 vehicles.
PLEASE NOTE: Unless where obviously posting on behalf of the NGS, all posts and views are my own and not connected/endorsed by the Society.

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We're not crazy, or insane, we're just people living with a condition.

Offline RailGooner

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Re: Revolution Re-runs
« Reply #22 on: September 12, 2018, 12:17:28 AM »
The real rakes are 2:1 blue:green, so I'd counsel against the reverse in model form.

Thank you. :beers: Lazy me. I'd just assumed they ran alternating 1:1. Well I'll be in for another one or two triple sets. :thumbsup:
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Online Intercity

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Re: Revolution Re-runs
« Reply #23 on: September 12, 2018, 04:18:35 AM »
They have proven very popular, but remember that is also in part due to the cost, the pricing they went for (I missed the early bird pricing) was still affordable, Revolution were very good in not pricing themselves out of the market, the eBay prices are not a very good factor to go on, being out of production sellers try to hike up the price however that also puts many buyers out of the market, the demand for sufficient sales may not be there once the few who are willing to pay the high prices have obtained their models.

It needs to be a balance between the original price and what the general modelers can afford (whilst still making a profit)
Support crowdfunding - itís the way forward

Revolutions class 321 needs your help, letís make it happen.

Offline njee20

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Re: Revolution Re-runs
« Reply #24 on: September 12, 2018, 08:56:41 AM »
Indeed, which is why I worry that £40+ may not yield the big volumes necessary for a run, and a smaller margin on a higher volume would be a better bet.

Clearly this is firmly in "teaching your granny to suck eggs" territory, and I don't doubt Mike and Ben, who have all the information and vastly more business acumen than me will consider all of this and price very reasonably, and in all likelihood given I have the willpower of something famous for a lack of willpower I'll end up with another rake regardless :doh:

Offline Karhedron

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Re: Revolution Re-runs
« Reply #25 on: September 12, 2018, 09:24:31 AM »
Assuming that the tooling was paid for by the 1st run (and that is just an assumption) I would guess that a second run will have a bigger profit margin, even at the offered price.

Not privy to any commercially sensitive info but I am sure RevolutioN and Rapido will have negotiated a price that they feel they can sell and balance profit for all concerned against the need to offer value for money (which the Pendolino surely does).
Well, that's just not good enough. Some fount of all knowledge you are!  :no:  ;)

Offline cutting42

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Re: Revolution Re-runs
« Reply #26 on: September 12, 2018, 11:40:01 AM »
Assuming that the tooling was paid for by the 1st run (and that is just an assumption) I would guess that a second run will have a bigger profit margin, even at the offered price.

Not privy to any commercially sensitive info but I am sure RevolutioN and Rapido will have negotiated a price that they feel they can sell and balance profit for all concerned against the need to offer value for money (which the Pendolino surely does).

I have followed the crowdfunding stuff since Revolution started and I wonder if the tooling cost, although an important part and certainly touted as the biggest cost in the past; is now matched or even outdone by the labour cost of assembling and painting the more and more complex models we are getting?

Offline Karhedron

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Re: Revolution Re-runs
« Reply #27 on: September 12, 2018, 12:01:51 PM »
The cost between tooling and assembly varies with models. Part of Hornby's much derided "design clever" attempted to produce as much detail as possible using as few components as possible precisely in order to cut down on the "unit cost" (the cost to manufacture each unit).

I know in the past Dapol quoted as a rule of thumb that 10% of the costs of a first run would be R&D, the next 40% would be the tooling. These are referred to as the "fixed costs". The final 50% would be manufacture and distribution which are referred to as unit costs. I suspect the exact percentages vary from model to model but that 10:40:50 ratio is probably a good one to bear in mind. What this shows is that 2nd and subsequent runs will be significantly more profitable as the they can be sold at the same price but only have to cover the unit costs as the fixed costs have already been paid.

I have heard anecdotally that Farish amortise their fixed costs over multiple runs. This could explain why they are more likely to raise prices on existing products compared to Dapol as 2nd and subsequent runs still have to pay off a proportion of the fixed costs while raising costs in China and falls in Sterling mean their unit costs are increasing.
Well, that's just not good enough. Some fount of all knowledge you are!  :no:  ;)

Offline woodbury22uk

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Re: Revolution Re-runs
« Reply #28 on: September 12, 2018, 01:13:33 PM »
I think that we can all-too-easily get misled by looking for direct links between costs and selling price. The crowdfunding of the initial Pendolinos and TEAs was enough to get them designed, built and delivered. We know that the Pendolino is a Rapido model created and marketed in Europe by RevolutioN, and I suspect that the first run was not a big profit earner for Rapido although it took up a lot of factory time. Simpler locomotives in H0 without the number of tampo prints probably earn better.

The TEAs were crowdfunded and will have had different cost/earning profiles for the manufacturer and RevolutioN. Pitching the prices at the right level to secure enough volume for reruns will mean hitting the sweet spot where there is enough profit for Rapido, and enough volume for the RevolutioN to want to devote their time and effort to the rerun.

Having carried out some major mailouts in the past I know the downsides of part of your home being stacked out with boxes of products, piles of packaging, invoices, instruction books etc. In any reruns I would like to think that the packing and dispatch processes can be outsourced so that the Hale and Ando homes do not get swamped by distribution. :-).
Mike

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