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Author Topic: Farish Birdcage stock  (Read 4967 times)

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Offline Newportnobby

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Farish Birdcage stock
« on: July 28, 2018, 05:11:43 PM »
Glad I'm in no need for these as, in a newsletter from Kernow today, a pack of 3 of them were priced at £127.95! :goggleeyes:
Strewth!

Offline Bob G

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Re: Farish Birdcage stock
« Reply #1 on: July 28, 2018, 05:37:18 PM »
Yep - I saw that too.
RRP is £149.95 - that's OO money for coaches! - and with 15% off that comes to £127.45

TBH I thought the 3 car Bullied set was expensive, and I managed to get one at TINGS a few years back for £80 - that was still over £25/coach, but with RRPs of Mk 1s at £35 now, and Mk 2Fs at £44, the Birdcage set has to be considered niche at £50/coach RRP. I wonder how long we shall wait until it drops to the sub £100 price point - which is probably what I might consider reasonable!!!

Bob

Offline Newportnobby

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Re: Farish Birdcage stock
« Reply #2 on: July 28, 2018, 07:16:45 PM »
I wonder how long we shall wait until it drops to the sub £100 price point - which is probably what I might consider reasonable!!!

Bob

I agree with you, Bob, but how long before Farish consider such a lower price unsustainable :hmmm:

Online thebrighton

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Re: Farish Birdcage stock
« Reply #3 on: July 28, 2018, 08:49:54 PM »
Trouble is the cost of research, design and tooling for these latest coaches is probably on a par with a loco. It is the customers perception that a coach should be a fraction of the cost of a loco so manufacturers have to cut margins to the absolute minimum to satisfy the customers possibly unrealistic price expectations. If we continue to demand coaches of the current standards I think we will have to bite the bullet and accept that they will cost more especially pre grouping coaches as I expect sales volumes will never be as high as, say, a Mk1.
I see prices being compared to the cost of OO coaches. They may be a quarter of the size but research etc will have cost exactly the same. Being smaller they are probably more labour intensive to build and with sales volumes lower they should probably cost more. Just because something is smaller doesn't mean it should be cheaper.

Offline Paul-H

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Re: Farish Birdcage stock
« Reply #4 on: July 28, 2018, 09:23:35 PM »
Perhaps they should consider offering two ranges like Hornby do with their railroad range

Latest high accuracy and high detailed stock at a premium price and the older long paid for tooling stock at a much more reasonable price.

I know I don't care what the underside of a plank wagon looks like so only buy older stock but for others the detail counts at any cost.

It would be nice to have the choice.
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Online PLD

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Re: Farish Birdcage stock
« Reply #5 on: July 28, 2018, 09:44:23 PM »
Perhaps they should consider offering two ranges like Hornby do with their railroad range
We've done that argument many times before...

In short it only works for Hornby by using old tooling (mostly the ex-Lima tools they bought up cheaply) and due to the overall size of the 00 market.

In N, with the smaller total market, splitting sales between two models needing two separate tools or two separate production lines could potentially result in the 'cheaper' model costing more than the current single 'super-detail' model.

Offline Bob G

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Re: Farish Birdcage stock
« Reply #6 on: July 29, 2018, 12:06:00 AM »
Folks

I agree with all these points raised.
I just that I don't think the hobby as a whole can sustain it.
And I'm one of the lucky few who isn't typically as constrained by budget as others are (still working, no kids, two incomes, own house, no mortgage).

But even I am shocked by the ambition of Farish at these prices.
There are some Farish products that seem very good value - the Castle with DCC sound and 40 with DCC sound for instance, but three coaches....two of which are identical...

Perhaps this is the point where the likes of Revolution can take the lead with cost effective pricing for the less mainstream products. We have seen these premium products succeed and their resale value skyrocket on EBay, for those who didnt buy in at the start of their projects.
I really wanted the class B tanks to succeed, which is why i drove them so hard, and i am grateful to everyone who bought in to my (and Scotts) idea, and to Revolution for producing them.
The price point was reasonable. No one would expect to pay more than £20 for a four wheel wagon. A reasonable strategy when they were first mooted.

But birdcage stock? Not quite my era, but maybe my region, and a rule 1 possibly? at a price? If Revolution had done these, I suspect they would have been closer to £100 a set (as the birdcage end is basically the same moulding for each of the two end coaches) but Farish are not in the business of producing a low production model (or they are anticipating a low production volume and have priced accordingly).

There is another issue. Desirability.
Take the new Moddelbahn Union Ferry Wagons.
They would be rule 1 for me, but i love the idea of continental stock on UK lines, and i will buy some, but somehow they seem a more manageable price at €30 per wagon, two to a coach length, more costly than say the Revolution TEA bogie tanker, but nice in their own right.

It is just that every time a wagon or coach breaks the pain barrier, there is a necessary time for individuals to have to adjustment to the asking price.
Its just like asking over £100 for a loco. We have accepted it now, but two years ago we were in fits over it.

We can absorb a lot but these cost implications are seriously making me think about what I purchase, and as I said above I'm not typically constrained by budget like many others.
I think I, like many, will be assessing what they want and holding fire a lot more than they used to do.
I did fancy a 108 in refurbished livery, but I'd rather have a Western Pullman, for example. And the current RRP for a five plank wagon for £16 is ridiculous.

When I started in this hobby in 1971 the Peco 5 plank wagon was 40p. Its the same mould 45 years later, and it's still a decent wagon, even if it is generic. Brakes in line with the wheels, which Farish never did at the start. A Minitrix Mk 1 was 99p, with nice B4 bogies too.
Now choice is down to getting what you want when production runs are doing what you want, or it will be sold out, so the price is often secondary, except you do of course have a choice not to buy in the first place.

Bob

Offline Newportnobby

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Re: Farish Birdcage stock
« Reply #7 on: July 29, 2018, 10:04:38 AM »
I happen to think the forthcoming C class and a pack of the birdcage coaches would look rather nice but will have to wait for much lower prices and take the risk there may not be any.
The problem is, if sales don't go as Bachmann hope then boardroom thinking tends not to be "We've asked too much" but more "There's just not the demand for N there used to be" and that could be the start of a slippery slope.

Offline woodbury22uk

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Re: Farish Birdcage stock
« Reply #8 on: July 29, 2018, 10:23:08 AM »
The 60/70 euro coach is commonplace on the continent. Though I do note on this page that there are some old tooling Roco/Fleischmann Eurofimas for 25.90 euros.

http://www.trains160.com/en/8-coaches
« Last Edit: July 29, 2018, 01:39:00 PM by woodbury22uk »
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Online thebrighton

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Re: Farish Birdcage stock
« Reply #9 on: July 29, 2018, 10:43:18 AM »

I agree with all these points raised.
I just that I don't think the hobby as a whole can sustain it.

But if that's what it now costs to bring an item to the marketplace and return a profit there's not a lot you can do.

But even I am shocked by the ambition of Farish at these prices.
There are some Farish products that seem very good value - the Castle with DCC sound and 40 with DCC sound for instance, but three coaches....two of which are identical...

I would think they have priced them at a point that will return a profit rather than being ambitious with the price and so what if 2 coaches are identical, does that mean you expect to pay less for 2 identical items? That's not how it works.

Perhaps this is the point where the likes of Revolution can take the lead with cost effective pricing for the less mainstream products. We have seen these premium products succeed and their resale value skyrocket on EBay, for those who didnt buy in at the start of their projects.
No one would expect to pay more than £20 for a four wheel wagon. 

So are you saying less mainstream items shouldn't be offered by the main manufacturers? The fact that Revolution items sell for more on Ebay perhaps the price was set too low or a profitable business isn't so important. Why shouldn't anyone be prepared to pay more than £20 for a wagon? Ok, lets tell Farish/Dapol that that is the price limit and let's wait and see how the quality decreases.

But birdcage stock? Not quite my era, but maybe my region, and a rule 1 possibly? at a price? If Revolution had done these, I suspect they would have been closer to £100 a set (as the birdcage end is basically the same moulding for each of the two end coaches) but Farish are not in the business of producing a low production model (or they are anticipating a low production volume and have priced accordingly).

Good for Revolution although you do seem to be basing your argument of price on a complete guess. If they could do it so cheaply why didn't they? I don't know your connection but this does seem like an advertisement for Revolution. It's great they can do everything more cheaply and of the same quality but I wonder how long the wait would have been for their Birdcage set to arrive.


There is another issue. Desirability.
Take the new Moddelbahn Union Ferry Wagons.
They would be rule 1 for me, but i love the idea of continental stock on UK lines, and i will buy some, but somehow they seem a more manageable price at €30 per wagon, two to a coach length, more costly than say the Revolution TEA bogie tanker, but nice in their own right.

But I thought you said no one would expect to pay more than £20 for a four wheel wagon? I make that more than £20.

And the current RRP for a five plank wagon for £16 is ridiculous.
When I started in this hobby in 1971 the Peco 5 plank wagon was 40p. Its the same mould 45 years later, and it's still a decent wagon, even if it is generic. Brakes in line with the wheels, which Farish never did at the start.

I doubt very much they are using the same mould they were using 47 years ago and quoting the price from that time is totally irrelevant. The average house price in 1971 was just over £5500. As the house is the same should it still cost the same.

Sorry but people seem to want a quality product that we could only have dreamed of a few years ago but still want to pay the same as  for the generic, poor quality offerings of the past.

Offline Paul-H

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Re: Farish Birdcage stock
« Reply #10 on: July 29, 2018, 10:50:29 AM »
Perhaps they should consider offering two ranges like Hornby do with their railroad range
We've done that argument many times before...

In short it only works for Hornby by using old tooling (mostly the ex-Lima tools they bought up cheaply) and due to the overall size of the 00 market.

In N, with the smaller total market, splitting sales between two models needing two separate tools or two separate production lines could potentially result in the 'cheaper' model costing more than the current single 'super-detail' model.

But then again they do still have the older tooling so there would be no cost involved on that point, From a production point of view having working in injection moulding in the past that it does not take that long to change tools and as their production runs are quite short, it would not be beyond them to run two ranges without affecting prices, so it would be quite feasible (If they wanted) to have two ranges and given haw many complain about the cost of rolling stock they may even find they sell more, as the buyers of high detail high price rolling stock will still buy them and those who would never buy the high price stock would buy the lower detailed lower price stock.

Remember is was not that many years ago (Less than 10) when Farish sold their coaches for under £10. Current prices are well above wage costs, material costs and inflation. Looks to me like they are just milking there ever dwindling customer base and while we still buy them regardless of true value who can blame them, after all it says so in just about every successful business manual (Treat your customers as fools and bleed them for every penny you can).
Please excuse any poor spelling, I am Dyslexic, just think yourself lucky if you can actually read what I typed.

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Offline Bob G

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Re: Farish Birdcage stock
« Reply #11 on: July 29, 2018, 11:26:51 AM »
I have to say that I am rambling on and there are indeed many different drivers that affect what I buy, but I have to say price is still an important one.

And if it was an advert for Revolution, that is only because their business model is now successfully proven to work, many times over.
We just have to persuade/demonstrate to them that they can successfully deliver transition period (and earlier) models just as effectively as they can do their post privatisation ones.
Both Revolution and DJModels considered £20 was the price point for 4-wheel wagons when they produced their Class B tanks/Mermaids. That was clearly a buyer driven price point.

Regards
Bob


Offline R Marshall

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Re: Farish Birdcage stock
« Reply #12 on: July 29, 2018, 12:24:54 PM »
I saw the birdcage stock (painted examples) at Railex NE yesterday and they looked superb.

Also an unpainted Class C 0-6-0.

If these were models of NER prototypes I would not hesitate to buy. As it is, I'd love to use the carriages under rule 1.

For the record I have no links to Bachmann or Farish and I am a pensioner.

If only these were NER Clerestoreys.

I can't wait for the Thompsons - just wish there were more varieties planned.

I can remember the 70s when the Ivatt 2MT by Minitrix was as good as it got - how much more choice we have now and how far standards have improved.

I honestly think we've nothing to whinge about.

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Re: Farish Birdcage stock
« Reply #13 on: July 29, 2018, 01:20:15 PM »
I wouldn't say nothing to whinge about, but certainly nowhere near as much as to warrant the amount of whinging we do. :beers:
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Offline Roy L S

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Re: Farish Birdcage stock
« Reply #14 on: July 29, 2018, 04:37:26 PM »
Agreed. We need to accept the pricing of new models. Quality is a light year ahead of where it was even fifteen years ago and the real problem is not that models cost too much now (and I have said this before) it is that up until a few years ago they were unsustainably cheap and that had to change.

Personally I doubt there is any way an existing manufacturer will use older tooling (even if it still exists) to do runs of "cheaper" products, it effectively splits their market and doubles their inventory, and assembly is only one part of the cost so I doubt they would be that much cheaper anyway.

Like Bob G, were these LNER coaches and an LNER 0-6-0 steam loco available to accept sound I would buy them, as it is I am sorely tempted but as a pure "Rule 1" I am not sure yet, let's see what else is about closer to the time of release.

I take the view that less can sometimes be more, and as we get better quality products with more features surely we just enjoy quality over quantity? I still reflect on my Peco Jubilee bought in 1978, when we have these pricing discussions. I had to sell several locos and save up to pay the £26.80 it cost back then. It was a quality product and at the time, so far ahead of the competition. I was happy with  just one and that I had had to give up other models to buy it. I suspect current RRP fallowing for inflation would be North of £150 so what has really changed???

The point is that railway modelling, especially N, has never been an especially cheap hobby and manufacturers need to make money to survive and reinvest. There is no entitlement that models must be affordable for all any more than there is any other product or service. For those with smaller budgets there are ways to adapt and still enjoy the hobby fully. For example, for those that shun £20 for a 4 wheel wagon, join the NGS. Yesterday at the AGM I bought three twin Palvan/Medfit kits for £22. That works out at £3.67 per wagon plus paint and transfers and the enjoyment of building them.





Roy

 

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